I get what you’re saying, but I might disagree with you about the mental health aspect, way of kings is filled with characters struggling with their mental health and thinking about it. He’s less subtle about it now, I agree, but I think it’s always there. I will agree that this book didn’t need to be 1,300 pages haha but I still loved it lol
Yeah some of those aspects have already been there, but it feels like it's gotten much more "in your face" and forced whereas in WoK it was just there.
It was there, but it felt more organic at the start. Then it became less about the character and more about the theme - very in-your-face like with the 1-800-Get-Help chapter early in RoW.
@@nikosbookreviewsAre you sure you haven’t read the entire book if it is bothering you in the first few pages. I want to know what you think when Kaladins arc ends in this book. It will be super cringe for you. I rolled my eyes and ignored it but I can see it bothering others.
@@pretty5793 I have not, and I'm not sure if I'll end up picking it back up at this point, but I'll have to see! I've told people in Discord I'm totally fine with spoilers, so I'm sure I'll end up hearing about it.
I've noticed these tendencies too. It's like the story's become more and more artificial, as if Sanderson is so hyper-aware of all the individual parts and technicalities that go into a fantasy novel that he's no longer able to let it develop organically
I agree with most of what you're saying. I managed to get through about 30% of the book before I decided to DNF it and only read the rest of Kaladin's chapters because at that point I just wanted to know how his (and Syl's) arc ended and didn't give a shit about anything else anymore. I'm still kind of in disbelief that half a year of looking forward to the release of this book lead up to this: massive disappointment. Every character has become a shell of their former self, the book reads as fanfiction at times due to the modern/YA language use, and the attempts at humor are just so painfully cringy. Don't get me wrong, The Way of Kings will always hold a special place in my heart and I still respect Sandersson for having created this captivating world and intriguing story, but I'm so glad I only started reading Stormlight Archive in February so I didn't waste years of my life being invested in this series. Apologies for the rant, I needed to vent a little lol.
Rant is totally okay, and I actually 100% agree that this felt like fanfiction, I made the same comment talking with some others about this. I've unfortunately been reading from the start lol
I feel the writing has been downhill starting with Rhythm of War. And that goes for all of Sanderson's work, not just Stormlight. Not a steep decline, but a decline nonetheless. Yumi was good, Tress was decent, but I was a little shocked at just how little I cared about Sunlit Man, especially considering who the main character is. I chalked it up to Sanderson being better at longform writing. I'm over halfway through Wind and Truth, and I started looking online at reviews to see if I was being too critical or if this book was another step down. You hit the nail on the head with this book. I think the biggest issue is that everything feels foregone, predictable. Did I want to know exactly what happened with Honor's death? Sure, but it felt obvious from the early chapters that he was not quite as great as people made him out to be. Saw Shalan's big twist coming from a mile away, too. The sense of mystery and mind-blowing conclusions from the first three books and Mistborn is gone. It becomes a little more frustrating when, instead of building on new mysteries or giving satisfying answers, Brandon wants to talk about everyone's mental state in excruciating detail. Let's take Jasnah for example. She has basically done nothing since Oathbringer. It feels like Brandon doesn't know what to do with her. Yet we are being given all of her inner thoughts, strategies, and insecurities for pages and pages, all leading up to her having one strategic breakthrough that ultimately makes no difference for her side. lol Now, I'm up to a part where it looks like she'll have a confrontation with Odium, but is that really going to be a defining moment? Especially when her uncle is going to face him like a day later anyway? This is just one example of how the story is being bogged down by things we don't need to know. And the reason Renarin's romantic subplot feels forced is because he comes from an extremely strict culture where women have to wear a glove on their hand or it's as bad as being nude and each gender has extremely strict guidelines to follow or you're seen as a freak by the general public. Yet, everyone Renarin comes into contact with encourages him, pushes him toward it, and is happy for him. He faces zero pushback from a society that cares about whether women wear a freakin' glove. Where's Sadeas to be a jerk when you need him? lmao This, and the general real-world language that some characters use, are great at taking me out of the story. There was one point when Syl said, "That's kinda racist," and I think my eyes rolled into the back of my head. Brandon has said that he's just translating Roshar phrases into English, but coming from the closest thing to Robert Jordan, coming from the guy who made up a thousand swear-words and phrases for his worlds, I think that's BS. It's lazy writing but thankfully balanced out by much better writing for different characters. Maybe the second half of the book will be better, and it's not like it's bad or anything. It just hasn't felt as strong as previous Sanderson books.
@@Cableguy15 Yeah RoW definitely started down the path of the writing changes, but they became so much more prevalent here. I also 100% agree that the "translating to English" thing is an excuse for lazy writing. It really is a huge thing that just takes me out of a story, especially when it's coming from the guy who has been known for creating immersive high fantasy worlds with their own religion, cultures, languages, etc.
I think that the story itself is still very good, but WaT was definitely a rather large step down in writing. Brandon NEEDS a good editor that isn't afraid to criticize him and help him become a better author. I hope he's ironed out these issues by Stormlight 6, which is going to be in like 9 years so that should be enough time for him to improve, lol.
Yeah, this was my chief complaint with the book as well. I loved the actual narrative and thus was able to really enjoy this book despite its writing flaws. But the lengthy internal monologues and heavy-handed communication of themes really distracted me from the story and broke my immersion at times. I feel like most of these issues could have been addressed in the editing.
I agree with your criticism. I've just finished Wind and Truth and am left with an odd mix of satisfaction and disappointment. The lessons seems to be that everybody is just a person, including our heroes and our villains and the author Brandon Sanderson himself. Understanding the villains as just people takes away from their scary villain character and it does feel that some characters who were built up to be scary villains fell short in this book. And there was a character who could have been a great villain reveal but it turns out I was wrong about that. We've had 4 years of theory crafting which has been fun but I've noticed that the longer the break time went on the crazier and more elaborate the theories got. I might have enjoyed the book more if I had gone in straight from RoW. Oh well, I still enjoyed the ride and it is unfair to have too high expectations of the author / any one book. Too high expectations ruin your experience. Also I need to say something about it: There are a couple of scenes that trigger me because they feel like they are not necessary for the plot but only there to appeal to the Woke Zeitgeist. I love the intricate world building and the story overall but did you really need a transgender soldier? Did you really need a conversation about how it feels to be neither male nor female? There is a gay love story and I didn't mind it too much because it takes its time to explore it without being too in your face. But the other stuff was just not meaningful in any way to the story.
@@Rhedak Glad you still enjoyed your time! I do think Sanderson is coming from a good and genuine place with trying to include those elements, but the examples I've seen have just felt very clunky and I think could have been executed a lot better.
I read Way of Kings and jumped off once I saw he was going to start releasing novellas in between books and tying things into the broader cosmere too much. Out of curiosity when each book is released I check out the reddit and try to keep up with the main events. This has become absolutely impossible. People are basically speaking a different language. All the terminology is just exhausting. Sanderson may have simple language in his books but they are the opposite of newcomer friendly. People just getting into fantasy will be turned away by the bloated complexity of it all. He's a fantasy author for fantasy fans. You can speculate about how every tiny bit of his worldbuilding relates to each other in new and interesting ways. But if you don't keep up with all of it, then it's just impenetrable. I need to make notes, charts and do do homework to read his books. They are no longer for me, and unfortunately, many other fantasy authors have taken Sanderson's success as a licence to also write their own books this way. I read less and less fantasy every year.
Yeah it's definitely been heading into that direction more and more, and even having read all the other Cosmere stuff, it's still a lot to keep track of for sure! It definitely makes the barrier to entry a lot higher
Sanderson is a good writer. he builds worlds and characters well. But Stormlight has a Stephen King issue. He types too much. Andrew recently commented about a theory he has, and one I have had, that at some point a writer can get so big editors do not really edit and just accept every word and line.
When he started using a lot of modern American terminology and verbiage in the early chapters, it really took me out of the experience. How were these things not caught by the beta readers? If they were caught, why didn’t Sanderson fix it? I’m still not all the way through part one, but so far it hasn’t been as bad as those early chapters. Btw, I’m the past with all the stormlight books, I devoured them as fast as I could. For this one, I’m much less motivated. Still enjoying it overall…but I do feel it needed some more editing.
Yeah I was the same way with the past books, would read them non-stop when they came out and couldn't put them down, but I was feeling a lot less excited for this one...and yeah, just all that stuff early on really put me off the book
Losing his longtime editor after Oathbringer (Book 3) exposed his need for a solid creative team to me on Books 4 & 5. He has alpha, beta, gamma, and sensitivity readers. He has loremasters and researchers. And all their comments, when applied back into the writing, require a deft editor. I'll keep reading but, I recognize that the Cosmere has a creative team that's going to keep changing and may move away from my tastes at some point.
sensitivity readers??? are you serious?!?! that is all you need to hear to understand that this in nothing but a corporate product and should be treated as such.
So much of what you've said is why I've stopped reading it for now (finished day 3). I was honestly a bit pissed when there were actual curse words in the book. I know quite a few people who like to listen to Sanderson books with their kids because there are no actual curses. I've also been annoyed going back to RoW how many cosmere connections there are. I wish he had finished era one of every series before he went "full cosmere." My first Cosmere book was Way of Kings, and that was fine because at that point only the first 3 books were out. Now I have a couple friends who have started with Way of Kings and it kind of sucks telling them that they should really stop after book 3 (if not earlier) and read these other 20 books first.
@@PatrickRyanBookReviews Yeah I expected the Cosmere connections part to become more of an obstacle, but the writing was the big thing that just seemed to really, really change.
Agree on the curses and there are other scenes and themes that are just less family/kid friendly and pulled me out of the fantasy of the book. They also don't add to the story.
Well said, all around. Lift's inclusion in the series turned me off almost immediately. When she came back in Book 3, I also noticed how the quality of the writing dropped pretty steeply. Then she made the "Old man butt" joke, and I put the series down forever. Sanderson can't decide what tone he wants for this series, and it shows.
@@secretfirebooks7894 The Lift style humor seemed to be happening with everyone early on on WaT which absolutely was a big part of what turned me off as well
@nikosbookreviews Wow. Yeah, that must be brutal. I talked to a friend recently, and he said the same thing you did about the editing. I highly doubt Sanderson has been actually challenged by an editor for years.
I mean, Lift is a crude teenage girl with no concept of decency. I think her tone is in line with the character she is. As is the case with every character in the series.
@@secretfirebooks7894 I happen to love her character so I guess that's why I don't connect with your opinion. A lot of people don't like Lift though, so I can see where those criticisms are coming from.
Great perspectives! This has been the most conflicting book I’ve read in a while. Not sure if I’m reading a story or a spur of the moment idea that an author wrote in a napkin and decided to publish it without any formal editing process. The language and prose is a major step down from TWOK, which was a superior book in terms of presenting ideas with a clear yet sophisticated use of the language. The prose in WaT is suffused with modern vernacular, which strangely affects the story’s quality. Rather than enjoying the story by completely immersing in it, I find myself constantly asking why good prose decided to go goodbye.
I can understand what you're saying because it is a completely different feel from way of Kings. But I'm fine with it. I'm ready for a Fantasy space age tale.
I think I'm just outgrowing it. When I read Way of Kings, I was a kid in high school. It's been over a decade since and my tastes in reading and stories have changed. And I just remind myself that it's okay; I have fond memories of Words of Radiance in particular, and still consider it one of the best fantasy novels I've ever read, but I'm into different stories and though I'll likely give WaT a try, I won't care too much if it doesn't work for me.
That's a great way to look at it for sure, and I'm definitely in the same boat. I've read a ton more and had my taste change a lot over the years as well.
I'm about a third of the way through the book right now, with no real motivation to continue (other than tearing into it in my own review), so videos like this are really refreshing to see. I too have been a massive fan of the cosmere for years and years, and I've read everything, but this has been a noticeable decline in quality to the point that I doubt I'll continue with the cosmere at all. What a shame.
I'm unfortunately very likely in the same boat. I'm not sure if I'll pick this one back up, and from there it brings the Cosmere as a whole into question for me.
While I agree with some of your points, I do think it’s worth doing some introspection about why things that have always been part of stormlight have started to bother you now (lgbt characters, exploration of mental health, the books being broadly appealing). I’m not sure Sanderson has changed as a writer so much as you’ve probably changed as a reader, which is totally fine.
So it's not that those things bother me, I think the way he's writing them has just gotten extremely clunky (and that's an overall thing that those aspects are only a portion of). I have had several comments about this though, and I do absolutely think it's something worth discussing in more depth (I don't think I explained my thoughts on that super well in this video), so I do have a video that will be coming soon with a more in depth conversation on the topic in Fantasy in general!
@ that’s fair, and I do think his writing has been a bit clunkier (starting in Oathbringer, mainly around pacing) - I think we just disagree about how nuanced those topics were handled in earlier books. They’ve always seemed pretty out in the open and at the forefront to me, even since WoK, so I just don’t feel like any of this stuff is “forced” in the later books - it all kind of tracks.
I finished it, thought it was good (gave it a 7.5/10), and definitely agree with you about many points. So much introspection, overanalyzing/over explaining of feelings and thoughts, and way way way too heavy-handed when it comes to anything mental health related. I'll definitely continue reading Sanderson, but I don't think ever I'll do a reread again. I reread all of Stormlight before Wind and Truth, and by the end, his weaknesses as a writer were so apparent and exhausting. Also, your point about characters is spot on. Sanderson's characters now just feel like a checklist of personality traits, quirks, and mental health issues, rather than an actual living person.
I'm glad you still enjoyed it, but I can get not wanting to reread. I reread the whole thing prior to each book up through RoW, and that's where I fell off doing that myself. Still definitely plenty to enjoy, but yeah the change has been very big
@@nikosbookreviews The Way of Kings and Words of Radiance are by far the best Stormlight books, and honestly some of the best fantasy I've ever read. It's crazy how different books 4/5 feel compared to books 1/2
Great point about the overall focus of the books shifting towards character introspection and self-discovery journeys. I disagree about the representation aspects feeling inorganic to the story, but unfortunately there with you on the other points. There’s just way too much clunky introspection and too many 21st century modernisms with the word choices for me to easily stay immersed like I had been in the previous books. And the humor is hitting less often for me too which isn’t great (or just seeming more forced). Considering how much I still enjoyed the Cosmere secret projects and the Lost Metal I’m hopeful it’s not an issue that’s going to extend too far into his other books.
I could and did finish the book but agree with most of ur concerns. Except for Lift, she's a great change of pace character for me. (Spoiler warnings) I Disliked the pacing from the 10day structure. Felt like early days just had less suspense and devalued some of that. The ending without an actual battles of champions seemed to make ending of the last book pointless and makes me kinda dislike it. If instead in the middle of a battle dalinar was losing, and then he gave up his powers and oathes it would have made more sense to me. If that also caused other spren oaths to be Invalid and thats how sizil lost his spren i think it would have worked (though could cause other issues, stormlight is already gone so most radiant powers are gone anyways). I hated 3 characters renouncing oaths. ALSO not a fan of idea of his death not being a thing potentially in the next book. Jasnah parts didnt live up to my own admittedly absurdly high expectations. Loved szeths story and flashbacks that part worked really well for me. Adolins chapters also worked for me I love that he got spren in the end out of respect sorta instead of oaths since oaths seem to be devalued now anyways. (Though being able to renounce oaths with little negative impact seems so broken mechanically) Inclusive type stuff as well as the modern lingo and therpaist type stuff also didnt work for me. Dont hate its in the book just felt out of place the way it was written almost like it was added after the fact instead of naturally part of the story. Renarin cross species love story felt rushed in 10 days to be a thing that could be real. It just seems so fake and forced. It worked better for the flashback as we can assume it happened more organically. Gohstblood story line didnt work for me as shallan stopped them, but it happened anyways so felt like a waste and only served purpose for shallans arc not a factor in the plot itself. Also had bit of an issue with Wit. This was his whole big plan and he was no where around for 99% of this and turns out really had little to no plan. Pros being not fantastic doesn't bother me like it does many. I speed read or listen to alot of these so I tend to undervalue great pros anyways. All this said, I hated RoW until I reread and I will reread this again, but im at like 2.7/5 and shocked at seing it at a 4.5-5 everywhere else. Seems like the gripes are acknowledged by most reviews then they still give it a 5 anyways. Feel like that just devalues a rating system.
A lot of very valid comments here for sure, and I've heard some similar critiques from others as well. I think for a lot of people it really is hinging on if the end works for them or not, and if it does, the whole book is worth it, and so you're seeing higher reviews. It's funny because you know...journey before destination, but that doesn't seem to be the case here hahaha
Brave video, Niko! I haven't started Wind and Truth and won't likely get to it until the middle of next year, but have had similar issues with Sanderson. Namely that I feel that like you mentioned at the end of the video, that his earlier works FAR surpass his later works. Stormlight 1&2>3&4, Mistborn Era 1>2 as two examples. Back when I reviewed The Lost Metal, I wondered how much longer I'd follow him as an author. I appreciate your thoughts!
Yeah I'm definitely at the point where I'm not sure if I'll still be following him as well for sure, there's definitely been a downward trend, but this was a steep drop off
This is off topic but I started reading the Tad Williams Otherland series. I had bought the books several years ago off Amazon. I started getting into book, one, but after page 109 it suddenly jumped to page 138 and thus left some of the story out, and I was so depressed about that, I never went back to it. I noticed there were even a few other pages out of place when I looked ahead a bit. Have you ever had that happen to a book before? It was a new book as well! I'll have to buy the first book again somewhere lol. The book started slow, but seems to have great reviews.
So funnily enough, I've had two books like that...and they were The Way of Kings and The Gathering Storm 🤣 Both have the missing parts available online for free so I never bothered replacing them though. Also I still need to get to Otherland, I love Williams' Osten Ard books!
@@nikosbookreviews oh wow that's crazy. I had actually looked online to see if anyone else was experiencing missing pages with the Otherland book and I couldn't find anything, so the only explanation, is maybe it was just an isolated printing error.
@@down-the-rabbit-hole Yeah sometimes there's a batch like that but usually they're pretty isolated, not a normal thing I've come across by any means but does happen!
Very good assessment. I had anticipated this book for years but couldn’t finish once I got certain parts that were completely uncharacteristic of Sanderson and very forced to support an agenda. I’m very sad because I was so looking forward to finding out what happens to characters I have fallen in love with.
I mean the writing was completely uncharacteristic of Sanderson from page 1, really has nothing to do with any 'agenda,' Sanderson just was very clunky with a lot of elements here
thanks for the video. This seems so different from most of the reviews I've read. Many stating that it brought them to tears because of how good it was. I guess as they say, "to each their own" :)
Absolutely loved this video, will mention i just finished Wind and Truth and there are a lot of things i absolutely agree with but the way it feels to me (and appeals to me) is that the first 4 books (including Edgedancer) settup the world and connected new readers - including me - to the world and characters and now we get the opportunity to see the introspectives of each of the characters. Not trying to change any minds here just wanted to put my thoughts into the void.
Considering most of booktube (ime) is rarely critical of his work, this was a really interesting listen. I’m sorry a series you loved so much is getting farther away from what made you love it in the first place. I’ve tried a couple of his books, and while I found them technically solid, his storytelling just isn’t for me. And the humor, at least as it was in Yumi, is very much not for me. If that is the case with his team and such (which I assume it is), it really puts me in mind of when (iirc) Anne Rice stopped working with her editor after book 3 in her Vampire Chronicles series. We suddenly went from decadent but intentional prose to multiple pages hyper-fixating on underwear or buttresses. And I can think of a few popular musicians who could also benefit from being told “no” on occasion lol. Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts! And I appreciate you keeping it real, even with an author you’ve loved.
Yeah Sanderson has been such a big part of Fantasy for so long that many people I think just look past issues because of the nostalgia, which I get, but it's just really getting so far from what I loved about it sadly. I do agree you can see it with some other authors as well as musicians and other mediums as well, sometimes you get so big you can do whatever you want, and it's not always a good thing for sure!
You've echoed a lot of concerns I've had about the series. I loved what I had read of Stormlight when I was getting back into Fantasy about 5 years ago but since then my taste has changed and expanded so I've been waiting in the wings to see how Wind and Truth is received to determine how soon I'll restart the series. Of Stormlight Archive, all I've read are Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, Edgedancer and about half of Oathbringer. Loved WoK and WoR but disliked Edgedancer immensely and Oathbringer was wrong timing on my part. Outside of those, I've found reading Sanderson to be a fairly mediocre experience, and as someone who has 0 interest in the wider Cosmere (I'm not sure just how unpopular that is amongst Stormlight readers), the supposed increading reliance on it has been one of the driving factors of me not having restarted the series. Another grievance I have (and this is super subjective) is Sanderson's humour. I don't find his writing funny, especially for characters like Lift and Hoid. For Shallan it kinda sorta worked cuz i think its meant to be cringe, at least that's how I read it. Authors like Abercrombie, Adams and Pratchett is more my sense of humour. Hard Magic Systems are fine and all but I never get the sense Sanderson trusts me the reader to eventually remember it, especially since there's graphs and diagrams in the back.
Yeah I think you hit the nail on the head with a lot of this, and you're not alone with not being interested outside of Stormlight, that's somewhat common for those who came to Sanderson late. I will say that the humor from Edgedancer has become VERY prevalent and not just with Lift, I cringed so many times in the first hundred pages which is what made me put it down lol
Haven't gotten to Wind and Truth yet. But for similar reasons I'm glad to hear he doesn't plan to release any of the coming Elantris or Mistborn books until he has finished writing the lot of them.
Not sure how much sense this makes but I have no plans to DNF and I’m enjoying it more than not but also I agree with almost everything you said at the same time.😂
I agree with you on all fronts. There were very few scenes that worked for me due to the writing and dialogue changes. Even the characters didn’t have their distinct voices anymore, especially Jasnah and Dalinar.
Spot on with this series’s problems. I read the first book and thought this would be an all time series for me and still may be but as it has gone along, something is changing and rubbing me the wrong way. It’s not the vastness of the cosmere, but it is the way he is going about the writing like you mentioned. I couldn’t quite put it into words, and I think you explained my criticisms very well. Thanks for the video
No offense bt if u Tell me this is the guy that wrote hero of ages i will disbelief We have fallen from inspiration to mediocrity From Vin's sacrifice to just giving up. I think this is the destination for me,continue on guys bt i can assure u this series aint worth waiting for 10 years
I agree with you. I started reading Sanderson last year and for the most part all of his recent stuff has been unappealing. I loved stormlight up through oathbringer. ROW and WAT were disappointing.
This is exactly what I was thinking. I'd DNF'd RoW and seriously thought about picking it back up to see how at least this arc ends. I think I'll be fine with Oathbringer being my ending of Stormlight 😂😂
Awesome summary Niko, I know I've ranted about this a bunch to you already, but I really do feel like this book is under-edited. I need to finish it off before I can really process what's wrong here, but I do know that I'm not enjoying this nearly as much as I did the first 4 books
the whole series is obviously bloated. he exhausted all great idead in book 1+2. then it went south. no wonder with 1200+ pages each book. chop them in half and they'll become twice as good.
There were a couple things here that I hard disagree on, although I think you're opinion's respectable. The books have always had mental health rep. Kaladin nearly commit suicide in the first book, Shallan's always had ptsd and has blocked out her trauma, same with Dalinar etc.. also in terms of like lgbt rep, Drehey revealed he was married to a man in book 3, and I think Renarin started talking about identity in that book too, if I'm not mistaken, so there's been that for a while now. Also, I'm pretty sure the first 2 books were meant to establish roshar, it's countries and cultures, and by oathrbringer, it became about saving Roshar. It's taken this 'turn' you talk about for a while now. We have like 2000 pages of build up for this world so the rest of the series can focus on saving it and also bringing the series into the broader cosmere. I feel like sanderson has been upfront with his intentions from the start
@@phychomaniac26 Yeah it's not that none of this was there, it's that it feels very in your face and forced the further in we get. There's no subtlety anymore, and it just feels very clunky.
@nikosbookreviews i agree that is in your face this time....or others would have mentioned it in the other books. There are many many people who don't want to read books with lgbt/"identity" in them and they didn't notice it in prior books and I didn't either. So it's definitely in your face to see this time.
@@Thecatladybooknook_PennyD My issue isn't at all that it's there, it's that it's included very clunkily. I'd much prefer it be included more organically and it would read a lot better that way
I think the difference for me is in the first book we infer Kaladins mental problems from what we observe happening and how he acts and in this book the characters have internal or even external monologues where they just tell you what their mental state is.
i get where you're coming from, to a certain extent. there are more and more objections that I see crop up that I really can't completely rationalize away. That being said, I still loved Wind & Truth. I think it had a really strong ending, I think a lot of the characters had really great endings. You have some good points. Does he need a better editor to cut out a lot of weird writing decisions and challenge him on using real world words like therapy in a really clunky way? absolutely Does he need new alpha and beta readers to tell him all his humor is starting to sound the same? absolutely But can he still deliver a damn fine story with a absolutely fire ending? also absolutely, from my perspective I was really worried leading up to W&T, worried he couldn't stick the landing, worried he'd lose the plot because of cosmere influences or weird modern day writing, and the preview chapters didn't do much to put those worries to rest, but after that... he delivers. As to the representation stuff, that's all him going on a journey. I'd be curious about which points you read that sounded like Brandon thinly disguising his own philosophy with the Mormon church, though.
I'm glad it still worked really well for you! I know a lot of people have made similar comments where they do recognize issues but still enjoyed it, and if I do pick it back up I hope I get there. For the comments that sounded like him talking to the Mormon church, there's a comment really early on about all religion being "horseshit" and then later on (past where I actually got) I've seen some excerpts where there are some pretty transparent discussions about following the letter vs. spirit of a religion with Szeth. Il
Hey, I really enjoyed the video. I found it really refreshing to hear a more critical viewpoint of the Stormlight Archive as opposed to the blanket positive statements you can hear nearly everywhere else. I will say that you sort of lost me on the representation concern for the LGBT elements of the story. I feel like, when talking about representation, that concern should be presented very specifically. Are you saying that Sanderson doesn't have the writing chops to properly present those characters in his stories, are you taking issue with the fact that the characters exist in the story, or is it some other point of concern with the writing? You can't say that sexuality isn't talked about or presented when the Shallan/Adolin betrothal, the Shallan/Kaladin/Adolin love triangle, Dalinar wanting to marry his actual sister-in-law, and the Jasnah/Wit dynamic are major/minor plot points. I can't look at that and then take issue when the story takes an aside. I can definitely say that romance and humor (I struggle through most Lift chapters) are not Sanderson's strong point, but I'm not going to take issue with the occasional aside to LGBT characters every now and then. I do agree with most everything else though.
Very fair question, and from some other comments I think I should have been clearer. For me it feels like the way those elements are included (sexuality in general, not just LGBT sexuality) is very forced and very clunky. There have been relationships for sure, but it seems as if a lot of the elements are just being thrown in your face here. Specifically with LGBT inclusion, for me, it's much better to just have this be an organic part of the story rather than calling a lot of attention to it like it's something abnormal. I do believe Sanderson is coming from a good place with trying to be more inclusive in his books (something he's very much lacked previously) but the execution here felt very clunky and awkward at times.
I agree with a lot of the criticism here, especially in regards to the quality of the prose dipping throughout the series. The focus of the mental health issues also went from exploration with the other characters to constantly beating us over the head with introspection. Do not understand the complaint about the diversity being forced, sexuality has always been part of the series. We have plenty of heterosexual characters exploring their interests and thinking about them even in The Way of Kings. How are authors supposed to introducide non normative relationships? Where is the line drawn at something being forced or simply something naturally coming into the story?
So the forced inclusion comment isn't even only about sexuality, but WaT does seem to focus a lot more on character sexuality than the previous books in general. For diversity I think it's a fantastic thing to have, but it should just be there and not be a "hey look this person is *blank*" because that to me makes it feel like it's forced
I'm 70% into WaT and I agree with you on most points. Even as someone who greatly enjoyed RoW this book feels like a step down in terms of writing. I haven't read Elantris in quite a few years but I think certain parts of this book has worse writing than his first published novel. My biggest problem is with the character introspections. They don't feel organic or earned like they did in the earlier books. I think there isn't enough 'show' and too much 'tell'. I want to feel the heaviness of the characters struggles as they go through tough situations like in the previous books, not have some modern words pulled from a mental health textbook telling me what they are thinking. I'm still enjoying the book though. I'm already attached to the characters, there is so much stuff happening, many reveals and I have faith the ending will not disappoint. I just wish these issues would have been ironed out during revisions because at its core it's still a great SA book.
Yeah it really, really does feel like a big step down. Maybe he will hear enough of that and reign himself in for the next one, but it was just too much for me when I stated WaT.
I’m a big Brandy Sandy fan I’m caught up on everything apart from Alcatraz, and i can 1000% see and agree with your argument that WaT is catering to the masses and the editing process suffers by Sando’s stardom (we’ve seen the same happen Stephen King) I watched a Q&A where the audience was asking Sando for more LGBT representation so absolutely now its sudden inclusion does look like catering to the fans. I don’t think any of this is bad necessarily, like you said, all just an observation. 👍
Yeah I think he's coming from a good place with the representation, but it's just very poorly executed. I do think him trying to appease the masses in general while also just not getting a lot of editing is a big part of the issues. At first I read your comment as saying you had read Alcatraz and I was going to say I was impressed lol
I think one of the key points you said about the core heart and feel has changed. Part of it is forcing in modern ideas and perspectives without blending them naturally into the story. I agree it feels like his circle while it has grown with beta readers and others, I think there are fewer people pushing back on some ideas and there are more influences pushing him to add more and more modern ideas just to have them in there. I finished the book after reading it nonstop for 2 days, and I thought part of the letdown was just that I read it too fast, but I also think some of it is that truly the book was a bit of let down in and of itself, partly just because the anticipation and expectations practically always are higher than the actual experience, but also because it is losing some of that soul it seemed to have. Adding real world curse words, some scenes and themes is shifting Sanderson from being an author I can blanket recommend to needing to add some qualifications and flags especially when talking with younger cousins or others. I also agree that the length was unnecessary, and it dragged on at times. I liked the last little bit with Kaladin. Some of the developing story and the associated themes around Adolin are odd considering how oaths play such an important role. (I don't want to spoil, so I'll leave it vague).
I typically would read new Stormlight books in a few days as well so can get that, but yeah the feel really just was different from page one with this one. A lot of people have still enjoyed the book, which is great, but it does seem like it's just getting further and further away in terms of writing from where we started
Really appreciate you sharing your honest thoughts, even if I heavily disagree with some of it. For me, the diverse representation in Stormlight is just wonderful to see, even if it lacks a lot of nuance and subtlety at times. I could personally forgive those little quibbles, especially considering how marvelously Sanderson stuck the landing here. His imagination is truly unparalleled, and I have nothing but respect and admiration for how he executed the ending to this first arc of Stormlight. I hope Sanderson pleasantly surprises you and still delivers some stories in the future that you can love!
Appreciate you offering your side as well! I can definitely see your point about the representation being a net positive even if it could be done better for sure. I am not giving up on Sanderson by any means, but I may put him down a while before coming back.
I just finished Wind and Truth and oh boy. I was conflicted about the direction of the story during the beginning and middle parts but the end floundered tremendously. Just wow. So much of the initial draw for me has been thrown out with that ending. Honestly it’s not shocking as I felt the shift in RoW but this is so disappointing. I started reading Stormlight in high school and I can’t say even teenage me would have enjoyed this conclusion. I did enjoy some of the book such as Szeth’s flashbacks and Adolin’s chapters but unfortunately that isn’t enough to save it for me. So baffled at the stark drop in quality even from RoW.
Sorry to hear that! I've heard from a lot of people that still thought it was worth it, but I feel like I'd be in the same boat as you with just being even more disappointed if I'd finished it.
I am a completionist so I had to finish the book to get it out of my mind. The audiobook made it slightly easier for me to get through. But just so many confusing choices on the part of Sanderson. The finale was clunky at best and felt like it was trying to capitalize on previous emotional story beats to get the readers to connect with sub-par storytelling. The more I think on it the more I grow to dislike the implications of the ending. I wouldn’t dissuade anyone, especially long time fans, from reading it to soothe their curiosity but perhaps keep your expectations low and you’ll get more out of it. Conflicted feelings all around.
@trinketspirit Yeah there's definitely a chance I pick it back up, but I also just have not been even mildly tempted since putting it down so will have to see. The audio was helping me a bit as well...but just not enough lol
It's going to take time for me to digest what I've read from this book, its a weird one for sanderson and feels like it needed a couple more drafts. Ending was good in an overall sense but for one where the gap is planned to be about 10 years till the next? I'm not sure that its a case of him being to big for his editors or something, the thought ran through my mind, could also just be a side effect of the size of this thing and needing more time to cook. There were parts where I was listening and it felt almost like things were happening too quickly, where major developments were coming without the proper setup. idk, I'm usually iffy on the latest stormlight book, possibtly my feelings will get better on a re-read
Well it's a huge book, so definitely nothing wrong with needing time to digest it all! This one like you said especially when it's the final book in this arc is of course even more important.
I think I saw several of your criticisms early (like 30%? early) in Oathbringer and I decided it wasn't feeling like the series I began. There was something just so off about how the characters talked, on top of the "humour", it all felt just too modern. Too glib, sometimes. You know how people usually dislike Shallan's mannerisms? It seemed that everyone got a bit more like Shallan. And then that early on in Oathbringer Kaladin is just shoved to the side and we get Bridge Four chapters. "airsick lowlanders blah blah." Ugh, no. And... the man is not subtle. It became increasingly more of a problem, the mystical doesn't feel mystical, it feels mechanical in these books.
You complain that the books are too focused on internal character issues instead of the world, which is funny because I have the opposite complaint. I see too much focus on the world, lol. And to the extent that characters are focused on, I find that poorly done. Enjoyed listening to your thoughts.
That's interesting, does sound like we have a similar conclusion but for different reasons! The focus on the world part is typically something I'm a big fan of in fantasy though, son to a surprise that's something I really look for!
I liked Wind and Truth but it would have benefited for some more revisions before release. I agree that editing of this book wasn’t as good as it was for previous releases. However, I love the story and character arcs. I hope to see more from Taravangian in other cosmere novels. Hopefully, someone from Sandersons team sees your video and does something about quality control.
I think a lot of people are in the same boat where they recognize the issues but enjoy it anyway and that's great! Ha, I don't know that my video will get to Sanderson's team, but I do hope they hear enough about this kind of thing enough to make changes in the future!
It feels like books 1,2 are different entities from 3,4. Ofc that is my opinion, i will still love WoK till my last breath but 4 and 5 are just not my cup of tea, thank you for the video 💯behind you. :)
Sanderson's writing has always been juvenile. But in the early days he was still that kid reading under his blanket with a flashlight saying "THIS IS AWESOME". Now he's an industry. The joy has been gone for a long time. I've always had a touch and go relationship with his books. I've DNF'd a bunch of them, but I've at least started a lot of them. I kept going back even though I had regular grievances (poor prose, YA feel, bad jokes, cartoony characters). When I DNF'd Oathbreaker I finally said I'm done with him. Also, fwiw, Stormlight Archive is by far the most overrated fantasy series of all time.
This book broke me. Such an utter failure. I’m a cosmere god in my friend group. I’ve reread every cosmere book multiple times. But WaT is analysis paralysis at its worst. By the start of WaT we’ve read over 4,000 pages of stormlight books, you dont need to explain a characters reasoning for every action, we know. You don’t need to say why this moment matters, we KNOW. For one who writes about broken characters who embrace setbacks but strive to change and be better - it’s unbelievable how little he’s invested in trying to be a better writer or find a capable editor. Quantity > Quality by Brandon Sanderson.
Yeah I'm unfortunately in a very similar spot here, it just isn't the quality of the earlier books, and without major changes I feel like it can only go further downhill
I agree! It has shifted to younger and broader audiences. Can't stand the humour, can't stand how heavy handed the themeing is, can't stand the unjustified page counts. I'm scared to go back and read book 1 now - ahhhh, i loved the plains storyline in it! But then he went in a totally diff direction plot wise and i've been dropping off :( And now with the writing shift, i can't
This is why stories produced for nerds and geeks, on whatever medium, die on the vine. I really wanted to get into Sanderson, but all I keep seeing is how bad they have become. So, not gonna waste my time. It’s almost as bad as ASOIAF. Martin will never finish and all we will remember is the last season of the show.
Did you pick it back up again and tough it out? At this point i'm considering just reading the Wikipedia and then stop caring about his books altogether. He's leaned into 'Marvelising' the Cosmere and I hate it.
I haven't even been a little tempted at this point to be honest, it'll be sometime next year if I do. Everything I've heard (and I've also not been shying away from spoilers) has me even more convinced putting it down was the right call for me
I was excited to read the Way of Kings, but I had to quit 500 pages in. It was incredibly boring, and the story was very repetitive and was not progressing at all. I don’t care how long a book is so long as the plot moves, WOK is as insufferably slow
I do like my long, slow books, and I personally loved Way of Kings, but yeah if book 1 felt too long and slow, it was probably a good call not to continue! The books have continued getting longer and longer
I am also a bit disappointed and we need to say it. The emperor has no clothes. The first 4 were excellent, but he failed to stick the landing. I really think the 10 days as a concept was a mistake as he wrote himself into a corner. I do wish you had finished wind and truth for the purpose of a more refined critique. It's more than the 9th grade level writing, there are several glaring problems with this novel that feel incredibly lazy and amateur for a writer like Brandon.
And unsubscribed... j/k! Yeah, that's interesting. I know Andrew has been saying that a few hundred pages could have been cut out. But all of the specifics that you're bringing to the table are things that I would have issues with as well. I think I'll still read it when I get to it in February, but if it's like you say then I'll have a hard time picking it back up with he starts it up again unless he corrects course.
Hahaha, I did expect a few angry comments! I still may pick it back up at some point as well, but I was not enjoying it and honestly haven't been even mildly tempted to pick it back up since putting it down, so will have to see!
5:02 yea ima stop listening here. At least finish the book if ur gonna cite off a bunch of things u find wrong with the authors direction. 80 pages?! I’d understand if u read half or a even a quarter but 80 pages
Which is exactly why I included what I did at the beginning of the video 😂 I've also talked extensively with others and seen lots of examples in this book, as well as witnessed the change in previous books
@ I hear u man, and im not saying your opinion is invalid. Its just i prefer to hear commentary from someone who read a decent portion of the book they’re speaking on.
@@lamaj26 And that's totally fair! This is more about the series as a whole than just this book specifically, but yeah I'm sure there's a ton of other WaT content out there that'll be more in depth on this book specifically!
I really enjoyed the book but lots of these criticisms seem valid. I'm not a fan of the spoon-feeding. Sometimes Sanderson shows us something about a character and then has someone tell us the same thing. The inner monologues and focus on character is not a terrible thing IMO, but combined with the spoonfeeding it detracts. The humour is a little hit and miss. I like it for the most part. The fan service style representation is . . . fine. It's often clunky but I get thats it's probably loved by some other readers who don't always feel represented in fantasy, i guess if you're going to have a D-list character be trans or whatever, you want it to be unambiguous if the goal is inclusion. The other issue for me is both a plus and minus, and thats the cosmere connections. There's a whole lot of magic systems, shards, gods, demi-gods, spren, hearlds, dragons, seons, orders, realms and factions in the book. This is great, but also a little overwhelming at times.
Yeah I think a lot of people are probably on the same camp as you where they definitely recognize the issues, but enjoy it anyway, and that's great! For me the bad just started to outweigh the good and I wasn't enjoying it, and so decided to put it down for now.
I’m a bit over 600 pages in. This is the least amount of fun I’ve had reading a Stormlight book. I’ll finish it, looking forward to the ending but Stormlight just may leave my top 5 series.
I agree 100%. This is not just Sanderson though - it is all trad pub Fantasy. It ties into the whole DEI BS that you need to push in order to be published. Sanderson has gone all in on the DEI BS and we are going to see it a lot more in his works. Mental Health is just one aspect of it. There are a lot of people - myself included - who are religious - and we are sick of the constant hatred against us. That is why I love older works. If Sanderson wants to appeal to the largest market, then this is NOT the way to do it. There is a saying - go woke go broke - and we are going to see it happen to Sanderson. I predict we are going to see in sooner than a lot of people suspect.
I do think it's a trend for sure, and sometimes it's done well, sometimes it's not, but for Sanderson I firmly believe it's him pushing it and not anyone outside. I have no issue with the inclusion of any of that kind of thing, I just think he's been sloppy with it and made it feel forced.
@@nikosbookreviews If you are right in thinking that this is just BS pushing his own ideas and not the DEI push then all of the Cosmere is doomed. The people have spoken recently on loads of works that have gone in this direction. Eventually, the people will be heard. I truly think that he is not too big to fail.
This man! 100% agree with you. I made another comment like this on another review and it got deleted. I don’t spend money on woke content, be it movies, tv shows, games, or books. Look at what happened to the MCU after Endgame, or really Infinity War. If Sanderson embraces fan service wokeness, the same will happen to him.
As I said in the video, I have absolutely no issue at all with any of the representation (whether mental health, LGBT, etc), it just has felt extremely forced and not like a natural part of the world, like he's putting it in there just to say it's there
I mean, context is pretty key here, but you do you! I am going to prefer organic diversity over in your face, forced feeling diversity every time. The idea is to normalize diversity which in my opinion is both more helpful and makes the reading experience not clunky.
@@nikosbookreviews But it's a meaningless term. "Forced diversity" is invariably used as a dog whistle to signal dislike of any diversity. Like, what makes it forced? I assume you're referring to Renarin and Rlain?
@Darkblitz777 What makes it feel forced is when there's a lot of attention called to it like it's something that's not just normal instead of having it just be present as an organic part of the story. It's something Sanderson seems to be trying to overcompensate for in this book after the lack in his other books. Actually the specific example I got to was the description of a character as basically an 'emo girl' which felt super out of place. I really think Sanderson is coming at this from a genuine and good place, and I applaud his choice to do it, but his execution of it is just very clunky here.
Yesterday I saw youtube bombarded with reviews of Wind and Truth, but Niko's the one I wanted most to see. Finally he has his opinion up. And he didn't let me down. Most booktubers kiss Brando Sando's butt and I knew just knew Niko would not. Personally I've read five Sanderson books, the first Mistborn and his four Wax & Wayne novels. He is a capable professional writer with a helluva of an imagination. Me, he bores me to tears with his goody goody sexless characters regardless of character development. Hard magic systems? Yawn. Thanks for the straight shooting, Niko, youtheman.
I've enjoyed quite a lot of his stuff over the years, but yeah unfortunately this is not one I enjoyed, and yeah I'm always honest on my takes positive or negative
I get what you’re saying, but I might disagree with you about the mental health aspect, way of kings is filled with characters struggling with their mental health and thinking about it. He’s less subtle about it now, I agree, but I think it’s always there. I will agree that this book didn’t need to be 1,300 pages haha but I still loved it lol
Yeah some of those aspects have already been there, but it feels like it's gotten much more "in your face" and forced whereas in WoK it was just there.
It was there, but it felt more organic at the start. Then it became less about the character and more about the theme - very in-your-face like with the 1-800-Get-Help chapter early in RoW.
@ haha I get it
@@nikosbookreviewsAre you sure you haven’t read the entire book if it is bothering you in the first few pages. I want to know what you think when Kaladins arc ends in this book. It will be super cringe for you. I rolled my eyes and ignored it but I can see it bothering others.
@@pretty5793 I have not, and I'm not sure if I'll end up picking it back up at this point, but I'll have to see! I've told people in Discord I'm totally fine with spoilers, so I'm sure I'll end up hearing about it.
I've noticed these tendencies too. It's like the story's become more and more artificial, as if Sanderson is so hyper-aware of all the individual parts and technicalities that go into a fantasy novel that he's no longer able to let it develop organically
@@rymdalkis Yeah that's I think a great way to describe it! So much in it feels very forced and disjointed, and very clunky.
My entire goal as an author is to get so big I can write drek and have nobody tell me it sucks. Sounds like he's achieved my goal!
Hahaha, well hey it's not a bad goal!
I agree with most of what you're saying. I managed to get through about 30% of the book before I decided to DNF it and only read the rest of Kaladin's chapters because at that point I just wanted to know how his (and Syl's) arc ended and didn't give a shit about anything else anymore. I'm still kind of in disbelief that half a year of looking forward to the release of this book lead up to this: massive disappointment. Every character has become a shell of their former self, the book reads as fanfiction at times due to the modern/YA language use, and the attempts at humor are just so painfully cringy. Don't get me wrong, The Way of Kings will always hold a special place in my heart and I still respect Sandersson for having created this captivating world and intriguing story, but I'm so glad I only started reading Stormlight Archive in February so I didn't waste years of my life being invested in this series. Apologies for the rant, I needed to vent a little lol.
Rant is totally okay, and I actually 100% agree that this felt like fanfiction, I made the same comment talking with some others about this. I've unfortunately been reading from the start lol
I feel the writing has been downhill starting with Rhythm of War. And that goes for all of Sanderson's work, not just Stormlight. Not a steep decline, but a decline nonetheless. Yumi was good, Tress was decent, but I was a little shocked at just how little I cared about Sunlit Man, especially considering who the main character is. I chalked it up to Sanderson being better at longform writing. I'm over halfway through Wind and Truth, and I started looking online at reviews to see if I was being too critical or if this book was another step down. You hit the nail on the head with this book.
I think the biggest issue is that everything feels foregone, predictable. Did I want to know exactly what happened with Honor's death? Sure, but it felt obvious from the early chapters that he was not quite as great as people made him out to be. Saw Shalan's big twist coming from a mile away, too. The sense of mystery and mind-blowing conclusions from the first three books and Mistborn is gone. It becomes a little more frustrating when, instead of building on new mysteries or giving satisfying answers, Brandon wants to talk about everyone's mental state in excruciating detail. Let's take Jasnah for example. She has basically done nothing since Oathbringer. It feels like Brandon doesn't know what to do with her. Yet we are being given all of her inner thoughts, strategies, and insecurities for pages and pages, all leading up to her having one strategic breakthrough that ultimately makes no difference for her side. lol Now, I'm up to a part where it looks like she'll have a confrontation with Odium, but is that really going to be a defining moment? Especially when her uncle is going to face him like a day later anyway? This is just one example of how the story is being bogged down by things we don't need to know.
And the reason Renarin's romantic subplot feels forced is because he comes from an extremely strict culture where women have to wear a glove on their hand or it's as bad as being nude and each gender has extremely strict guidelines to follow or you're seen as a freak by the general public. Yet, everyone Renarin comes into contact with encourages him, pushes him toward it, and is happy for him. He faces zero pushback from a society that cares about whether women wear a freakin' glove. Where's Sadeas to be a jerk when you need him? lmao This, and the general real-world language that some characters use, are great at taking me out of the story. There was one point when Syl said, "That's kinda racist," and I think my eyes rolled into the back of my head. Brandon has said that he's just translating Roshar phrases into English, but coming from the closest thing to Robert Jordan, coming from the guy who made up a thousand swear-words and phrases for his worlds, I think that's BS. It's lazy writing but thankfully balanced out by much better writing for different characters.
Maybe the second half of the book will be better, and it's not like it's bad or anything. It just hasn't felt as strong as previous Sanderson books.
@@Cableguy15 Yeah RoW definitely started down the path of the writing changes, but they became so much more prevalent here. I also 100% agree that the "translating to English" thing is an excuse for lazy writing. It really is a huge thing that just takes me out of a story, especially when it's coming from the guy who has been known for creating immersive high fantasy worlds with their own religion, cultures, languages, etc.
I think that the story itself is still very good, but WaT was definitely a rather large step down in writing. Brandon NEEDS a good editor that isn't afraid to criticize him and help him become a better author. I hope he's ironed out these issues by Stormlight 6, which is going to be in like 9 years so that should be enough time for him to improve, lol.
Absolutely agree, and yeah hopefully by then things will be heading in the right direction!
Yeah, this was my chief complaint with the book as well. I loved the actual narrative and thus was able to really enjoy this book despite its writing flaws. But the lengthy internal monologues and heavy-handed communication of themes really distracted me from the story and broke my immersion at times. I feel like most of these issues could have been addressed in the editing.
I agree with your criticism. I've just finished Wind and Truth and am left with an odd mix of satisfaction and disappointment. The lessons seems to be that everybody is just a person, including our heroes and our villains and the author Brandon Sanderson himself.
Understanding the villains as just people takes away from their scary villain character and it does feel that some characters who were built up to be scary villains fell short in this book. And there was a character who could have been a great villain reveal but it turns out I was wrong about that.
We've had 4 years of theory crafting which has been fun but I've noticed that the longer the break time went on the crazier and more elaborate the theories got. I might have enjoyed the book more if I had gone in straight from RoW.
Oh well, I still enjoyed the ride and it is unfair to have too high expectations of the author / any one book. Too high expectations ruin your experience.
Also I need to say something about it:
There are a couple of scenes that trigger me because they feel like they are not necessary for the plot but only there to appeal to the Woke Zeitgeist. I love the intricate world building and the story overall but did you really need a transgender soldier? Did you really need a conversation about how it feels to be neither male nor female?
There is a gay love story and I didn't mind it too much because it takes its time to explore it without being too in your face. But the other stuff was just not meaningful in any way to the story.
@@Rhedak Glad you still enjoyed your time! I do think Sanderson is coming from a good and genuine place with trying to include those elements, but the examples I've seen have just felt very clunky and I think could have been executed a lot better.
I read Way of Kings and jumped off once I saw he was going to start releasing novellas in between books and tying things into the broader cosmere too much. Out of curiosity when each book is released I check out the reddit and try to keep up with the main events. This has become absolutely impossible. People are basically speaking a different language. All the terminology is just exhausting.
Sanderson may have simple language in his books but they are the opposite of newcomer friendly. People just getting into fantasy will be turned away by the bloated complexity of it all. He's a fantasy author for fantasy fans. You can speculate about how every tiny bit of his worldbuilding relates to each other in new and interesting ways. But if you don't keep up with all of it, then it's just impenetrable. I need to make notes, charts and do do homework to read his books.
They are no longer for me, and unfortunately, many other fantasy authors have taken Sanderson's success as a licence to also write their own books this way. I read less and less fantasy every year.
Yeah it's definitely been heading into that direction more and more, and even having read all the other Cosmere stuff, it's still a lot to keep track of for sure! It definitely makes the barrier to entry a lot higher
Sanderson is a good writer. he builds worlds and characters well. But Stormlight has a Stephen King issue. He types too much. Andrew recently commented about a theory he has, and one I have had, that at some point a writer can get so big editors do not really edit and just accept every word and line.
@@Montie-Adkins Yeah it absolutely seems like that's the case here, it's pretty clear he's not being reigned in at all anymore
You’re right. That phenomenon is clearly visible on King and Rowling
@@EstoNoEsUnSpoiler I have not read her books. Saw the movies though and love them.
When he started using a lot of modern American terminology and verbiage in the early chapters, it really took me out of the experience. How were these things not caught by the beta readers? If they were caught, why didn’t Sanderson fix it? I’m still not all the way through part one, but so far it hasn’t been as bad as those early chapters. Btw, I’m the past with all the stormlight books, I devoured them as fast as I could. For this one, I’m much less motivated. Still enjoying it overall…but I do feel it needed some more editing.
Yeah I was the same way with the past books, would read them non-stop when they came out and couldn't put them down, but I was feeling a lot less excited for this one...and yeah, just all that stuff early on really put me off the book
@ he’s also, unfortunately, “time stamped” this book by doing this. That increases the risk that it won’t age well.
@@johnhogue9402 Yeah very fair point as well
Losing his longtime editor after Oathbringer (Book 3) exposed his need for a solid creative team to me on Books 4 & 5.
He has alpha, beta, gamma, and sensitivity readers. He has loremasters and researchers. And all their comments, when applied back into the writing, require a deft editor.
I'll keep reading but, I recognize that the Cosmere has a creative team that's going to keep changing and may move away from my tastes at some point.
Yep, I agree, you can really see the shift start to happen in book 4 and then into 5.
sensitivity readers??? are you serious?!?! that is all you need to hear to understand that this in nothing but a corporate product and should be treated as such.
@@JohnAndrewMacDonald Sensitivity readers are a pretty standard practice these days in both traditional and self publishing.
@@nikosbookreviews oh man, I did not know that. But I suppose it's not surprising.
@@nikosbookreviews Already in book 3. Oathbringer became morre hollywood-like, more dramatic, bigger in scope much to my dislike
So much of what you've said is why I've stopped reading it for now (finished day 3). I was honestly a bit pissed when there were actual curse words in the book. I know quite a few people who like to listen to Sanderson books with their kids because there are no actual curses. I've also been annoyed going back to RoW how many cosmere connections there are. I wish he had finished era one of every series before he went "full cosmere." My first Cosmere book was Way of Kings, and that was fine because at that point only the first 3 books were out. Now I have a couple friends who have started with Way of Kings and it kind of sucks telling them that they should really stop after book 3 (if not earlier) and read these other 20 books first.
@@PatrickRyanBookReviews Yeah I expected the Cosmere connections part to become more of an obstacle, but the writing was the big thing that just seemed to really, really change.
Agree on the curses and there are other scenes and themes that are just less family/kid friendly and pulled me out of the fantasy of the book. They also don't add to the story.
Well said, all around. Lift's inclusion in the series turned me off almost immediately. When she came back in Book 3, I also noticed how the quality of the writing dropped pretty steeply. Then she made the "Old man butt" joke, and I put the series down forever. Sanderson can't decide what tone he wants for this series, and it shows.
@@secretfirebooks7894 The Lift style humor seemed to be happening with everyone early on on WaT which absolutely was a big part of what turned me off as well
@nikosbookreviews Wow. Yeah, that must be brutal. I talked to a friend recently, and he said the same thing you did about the editing. I highly doubt Sanderson has been actually challenged by an editor for years.
I mean, Lift is a crude teenage girl with no concept of decency.
I think her tone is in line with the character she is.
As is the case with every character in the series.
@arenkai I know. I don't like that character and I don't think she fits with the rest of the story.
@@secretfirebooks7894 I happen to love her character so I guess that's why I don't connect with your opinion. A lot of people don't like Lift though, so I can see where those criticisms are coming from.
Great perspectives! This has been the most conflicting book I’ve read in a while. Not sure if I’m reading a story or a spur of the moment idea that an author wrote in a napkin and decided to publish it without any formal editing process. The language and prose is a major step down from TWOK, which was a superior book in terms of presenting ideas with a clear yet sophisticated use of the language. The prose in WaT is suffused with modern vernacular, which strangely affects the story’s quality. Rather than enjoying the story by completely immersing in it, I find myself constantly asking why good prose decided to go goodbye.
Yep I had a very similar experience, it was extremely jarring the way it just didn't even sound like it was written by the same person
Exactly!
I can understand what you're saying because it is a completely different feel from way of Kings. But I'm fine with it. I'm ready for a Fantasy space age tale.
It will definitely be interesting seeing what directions it continues to go in!
I think I'm just outgrowing it. When I read Way of Kings, I was a kid in high school. It's been over a decade since and my tastes in reading and stories have changed. And I just remind myself that it's okay; I have fond memories of Words of Radiance in particular, and still consider it one of the best fantasy novels I've ever read, but I'm into different stories and though I'll likely give WaT a try, I won't care too much if it doesn't work for me.
That's a great way to look at it for sure, and I'm definitely in the same boat. I've read a ton more and had my taste change a lot over the years as well.
I'm about a third of the way through the book right now, with no real motivation to continue (other than tearing into it in my own review), so videos like this are really refreshing to see. I too have been a massive fan of the cosmere for years and years, and I've read everything, but this has been a noticeable decline in quality to the point that I doubt I'll continue with the cosmere at all. What a shame.
I'm unfortunately very likely in the same boat. I'm not sure if I'll pick this one back up, and from there it brings the Cosmere as a whole into question for me.
While I agree with some of your points, I do think it’s worth doing some introspection about why things that have always been part of stormlight have started to bother you now (lgbt characters, exploration of mental health, the books being broadly appealing). I’m not sure Sanderson has changed as a writer so much as you’ve probably changed as a reader, which is totally fine.
So it's not that those things bother me, I think the way he's writing them has just gotten extremely clunky (and that's an overall thing that those aspects are only a portion of). I have had several comments about this though, and I do absolutely think it's something worth discussing in more depth (I don't think I explained my thoughts on that super well in this video), so I do have a video that will be coming soon with a more in depth conversation on the topic in Fantasy in general!
@ that’s fair, and I do think his writing has been a bit clunkier (starting in Oathbringer, mainly around pacing) - I think we just disagree about how nuanced those topics were handled in earlier books. They’ve always seemed pretty out in the open and at the forefront to me, even since WoK, so I just don’t feel like any of this stuff is “forced” in the later books - it all kind of tracks.
I finished it, thought it was good (gave it a 7.5/10), and definitely agree with you about many points. So much introspection, overanalyzing/over explaining of feelings and thoughts, and way way way too heavy-handed when it comes to anything mental health related. I'll definitely continue reading Sanderson, but I don't think ever I'll do a reread again. I reread all of Stormlight before Wind and Truth, and by the end, his weaknesses as a writer were so apparent and exhausting.
Also, your point about characters is spot on. Sanderson's characters now just feel like a checklist of personality traits, quirks, and mental health issues, rather than an actual living person.
I'm glad you still enjoyed it, but I can get not wanting to reread. I reread the whole thing prior to each book up through RoW, and that's where I fell off doing that myself. Still definitely plenty to enjoy, but yeah the change has been very big
@@nikosbookreviews The Way of Kings and Words of Radiance are by far the best Stormlight books, and honestly some of the best fantasy I've ever read. It's crazy how different books 4/5 feel compared to books 1/2
@Ak1193 Yeah I'll always love the early books, especially WoK for sure!
Great point about the overall focus of the books shifting towards character introspection and self-discovery journeys. I disagree about the representation aspects feeling inorganic to the story, but unfortunately there with you on the other points. There’s just way too much clunky introspection and too many 21st century modernisms with the word choices for me to easily stay immersed like I had been in the previous books. And the humor is hitting less often for me too which isn’t great (or just seeming more forced).
Considering how much I still enjoyed the Cosmere secret projects and the Lost Metal I’m hopeful it’s not an issue that’s going to extend too far into his other books.
Yeah I think that's something we'll have to see, but hopefully this remains just a SL issue!
I could and did finish the book but agree with most of ur concerns. Except for Lift, she's a great change of pace character for me.
(Spoiler warnings)
I Disliked the pacing from the 10day structure. Felt like early days just had less suspense and devalued some of that.
The ending without an actual battles of champions seemed to make ending of the last book pointless and makes me kinda dislike it. If instead in the middle of a battle dalinar was losing, and then he gave up his powers and oathes it would have made more sense to me. If that also caused other spren oaths to be Invalid and thats how sizil lost his spren i think it would have worked (though could cause other issues, stormlight is already gone so most radiant powers are gone anyways). I hated 3 characters renouncing oaths. ALSO not a fan of idea of his death not being a thing potentially in the next book.
Jasnah parts didnt live up to my own admittedly absurdly high expectations.
Loved szeths story and flashbacks that part worked really well for me.
Adolins chapters also worked for me I love that he got spren in the end out of respect sorta instead of oaths since oaths seem to be devalued now anyways. (Though being able to renounce oaths with little negative impact seems so broken mechanically)
Inclusive type stuff as well as the modern lingo and therpaist type stuff also didnt work for me. Dont hate its in the book just felt out of place the way it was written almost like it was added after the fact instead of naturally part of the story. Renarin cross species love story felt rushed in 10 days to be a thing that could be real. It just seems so fake and forced. It worked better for the flashback as we can assume it happened more organically.
Gohstblood story line didnt work for me as shallan stopped them, but it happened anyways so felt like a waste and only served purpose for shallans arc not a factor in the plot itself.
Also had bit of an issue with Wit. This was his whole big plan and he was no where around for 99% of this and turns out really had little to no plan.
Pros being not fantastic doesn't bother me like it does many. I speed read or listen to alot of these so I tend to undervalue great pros anyways.
All this said, I hated RoW until I reread and I will reread this again, but im at like 2.7/5 and shocked at seing it at a 4.5-5 everywhere else. Seems like the gripes are acknowledged by most reviews then they still give it a 5 anyways. Feel like that just devalues a rating system.
A lot of very valid comments here for sure, and I've heard some similar critiques from others as well. I think for a lot of people it really is hinging on if the end works for them or not, and if it does, the whole book is worth it, and so you're seeing higher reviews. It's funny because you know...journey before destination, but that doesn't seem to be the case here hahaha
Brave video, Niko! I haven't started Wind and Truth and won't likely get to it until the middle of next year, but have had similar issues with Sanderson. Namely that I feel that like you mentioned at the end of the video, that his earlier works FAR surpass his later works. Stormlight 1&2>3&4, Mistborn Era 1>2 as two examples. Back when I reviewed The Lost Metal, I wondered how much longer I'd follow him as an author. I appreciate your thoughts!
Yeah I'm definitely at the point where I'm not sure if I'll still be following him as well for sure, there's definitely been a downward trend, but this was a steep drop off
I said this on another video-- it's getting worse because your tastes are evolving.
My tastes definitely have evolved, but the quality has also clearly changed with these books
This is off topic but I started reading the Tad Williams Otherland series. I had bought the books several years ago off Amazon. I started getting into book, one, but after page 109 it suddenly jumped to page 138 and thus left some of the story out, and I was so depressed about that, I never went back to it. I noticed there were even a few other pages out of place when I looked ahead a bit. Have you ever had that happen to a book before? It was a new book as well! I'll have to buy the first book again somewhere lol. The book started slow, but seems to have great reviews.
So funnily enough, I've had two books like that...and they were The Way of Kings and The Gathering Storm 🤣 Both have the missing parts available online for free so I never bothered replacing them though. Also I still need to get to Otherland, I love Williams' Osten Ard books!
@@nikosbookreviews oh wow that's crazy. I had actually looked online to see if anyone else was experiencing missing pages with the Otherland book and I couldn't find anything, so the only explanation, is maybe it was just an isolated printing error.
@@down-the-rabbit-hole Yeah sometimes there's a batch like that but usually they're pretty isolated, not a normal thing I've come across by any means but does happen!
I really agree with the points you've made in this video
insert mature and respectful response here
Very good assessment. I had anticipated this book for years but couldn’t finish once I got certain parts that were completely uncharacteristic of Sanderson and very forced to support an agenda. I’m very sad because I was so looking forward to finding out what happens to characters I have fallen in love with.
I mean the writing was completely uncharacteristic of Sanderson from page 1, really has nothing to do with any 'agenda,' Sanderson just was very clunky with a lot of elements here
thanks for the video. This seems so different from most of the reviews I've read. Many stating that it brought them to tears because of how good it was. I guess as they say, "to each their own" :)
Yeah everything is ultimately subjective for sure!
Absolutely loved this video, will mention i just finished Wind and Truth and there are a lot of things i absolutely agree with but the way it feels to me (and appeals to me) is that the first 4 books (including Edgedancer) settup the world and connected new readers - including me - to the world and characters and now we get the opportunity to see the introspectives of each of the characters. Not trying to change any minds here just wanted to put my thoughts into the void.
Very interesting take! I can see that working very well for some for sure, but for me is moving in a direction I'm less interested in
I find audio super low, I have everything turned and its still quiet
Someone else mentioned that too, my levels must have been off on this one!
Considering most of booktube (ime) is rarely critical of his work, this was a really interesting listen.
I’m sorry a series you loved so much is getting farther away from what made you love it in the first place.
I’ve tried a couple of his books, and while I found them technically solid, his storytelling just isn’t for me. And the humor, at least as it was in Yumi, is very much not for me.
If that is the case with his team and such (which I assume it is), it really puts me in mind of when (iirc) Anne Rice stopped working with her editor after book 3 in her Vampire Chronicles series. We suddenly went from decadent but intentional prose to multiple pages hyper-fixating on underwear or buttresses. And I can think of a few popular musicians who could also benefit from being told “no” on occasion lol. Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts! And I appreciate you keeping it real, even with an author you’ve loved.
Yeah Sanderson has been such a big part of Fantasy for so long that many people I think just look past issues because of the nostalgia, which I get, but it's just really getting so far from what I loved about it sadly. I do agree you can see it with some other authors as well as musicians and other mediums as well, sometimes you get so big you can do whatever you want, and it's not always a good thing for sure!
Reacting in a mature and respectful way….😅
You've echoed a lot of concerns I've had about the series. I loved what I had read of Stormlight when I was getting back into Fantasy about 5 years ago but since then my taste has changed and expanded so I've been waiting in the wings to see how Wind and Truth is received to determine how soon I'll restart the series.
Of Stormlight Archive, all I've read are Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, Edgedancer and about half of Oathbringer. Loved WoK and WoR but disliked Edgedancer immensely and Oathbringer was wrong timing on my part.
Outside of those, I've found reading Sanderson to be a fairly mediocre experience, and as someone who has 0 interest in the wider Cosmere (I'm not sure just how unpopular that is amongst Stormlight readers), the supposed increading reliance on it has been one of the driving factors of me not having restarted the series.
Another grievance I have (and this is super subjective) is Sanderson's humour. I don't find his writing funny, especially for characters like Lift and Hoid. For Shallan it kinda sorta worked cuz i think its meant to be cringe, at least that's how I read it. Authors like Abercrombie, Adams and Pratchett is more my sense of humour.
Hard Magic Systems are fine and all but I never get the sense Sanderson trusts me the reader to eventually remember it, especially since there's graphs and diagrams in the back.
Yeah I think you hit the nail on the head with a lot of this, and you're not alone with not being interested outside of Stormlight, that's somewhat common for those who came to Sanderson late. I will say that the humor from Edgedancer has become VERY prevalent and not just with Lift, I cringed so many times in the first hundred pages which is what made me put it down lol
@@nikosbookreviewsoh no... 😂
Oh well, maybe I'll continue Wars of Light & Shadow and WoT while the dust settles for Stormlight 😅
I started on Malazan this fall and had just finished book 3 when WaT came out. Put Malazan aside to read it and boy was that a whiplash
@rymdalkis Oh man, yeah that's a change! I did go from GGK to WaT...which was also not a great idea hahaha
Haven't gotten to Wind and Truth yet. But for similar reasons I'm glad to hear he doesn't plan to release any of the coming Elantris or Mistborn books until he has finished writing the lot of them.
Probably a good thing!
Not sure how much sense this makes but I have no plans to DNF and I’m enjoying it more than not but also I agree with almost everything you said at the same time.😂
You're not alone there! There have been a lot of comments of people with similar thoughts, and hey I'm glad the good is outweighing the bad for you!
I agree with you on all fronts. There were very few scenes that worked for me due to the writing and dialogue changes. Even the characters didn’t have their distinct voices anymore, especially Jasnah and Dalinar.
@@trojanfan4321 Yeah that was a big issue for me as well, the characters largely all felt the same in this one
Spot on with this series’s problems. I read the first book and thought this would be an all time series for me and still may be but as it has gone along, something is changing and rubbing me the wrong way. It’s not the vastness of the cosmere, but it is the way he is going about the writing like you mentioned. I couldn’t quite put it into words, and I think you explained my criticisms very well. Thanks for the video
@@ragoose1000 Yeah this definitely felt like it was going to be an all time series for me as well, but it's really gotten away from that for me.
No offense bt if u Tell me this is the guy that wrote hero of ages i will disbelief
We have fallen from inspiration to mediocrity
From Vin's sacrifice to just giving up.
I think this is the destination for me,continue on guys bt i can assure u this series aint worth waiting for 10 years
The start of book 5 definitely did not feel like it was written by the same author to me either, so totally get it!
I agree with you. I started reading Sanderson last year and for the most part all of his recent stuff has been unappealing.
I loved stormlight up through oathbringer. ROW and WAT were disappointing.
Yeah I feel like things have been slowly trending downward but WaT was a really big dropoff
And...my FOMO disappears 🤣
Glad I could help 😅
Same 😂
This is exactly what I was thinking. I'd DNF'd RoW and seriously thought about picking it back up to see how at least this arc ends. I think I'll be fine with Oathbringer being my ending of Stormlight 😂😂
Awesome summary Niko,
I know I've ranted about this a bunch to you already, but I really do feel like this book is under-edited. I need to finish it off before I can really process what's wrong here, but I do know that I'm not enjoying this nearly as much as I did the first 4 books
@@ZOMGfantasy Will be interested to hear your additional thoughts!
the whole series is obviously bloated. he exhausted all great idead in book 1+2. then it went south. no wonder with 1200+ pages each book. chop them in half and they'll become twice as good.
@SaveEurope I do love me some long books, but yeah they probably all could be chopped down a bit
There were a couple things here that I hard disagree on, although I think you're opinion's respectable.
The books have always had mental health rep. Kaladin nearly commit suicide in the first book, Shallan's always had ptsd and has blocked out her trauma, same with Dalinar etc.. also in terms of like lgbt rep, Drehey revealed he was married to a man in book 3, and I think Renarin started talking about identity in that book too, if I'm not mistaken, so there's been that for a while now.
Also, I'm pretty sure the first 2 books were meant to establish roshar, it's countries and cultures, and by oathrbringer, it became about saving Roshar. It's taken this 'turn' you talk about for a while now. We have like 2000 pages of build up for this world so the rest of the series can focus on saving it and also bringing the series into the broader cosmere. I feel like sanderson has been upfront with his intentions from the start
@@phychomaniac26 Yeah it's not that none of this was there, it's that it feels very in your face and forced the further in we get. There's no subtlety anymore, and it just feels very clunky.
@nikosbookreviews i agree that is in your face this time....or others would have mentioned it in the other books. There are many many people who don't want to read books with lgbt/"identity" in them and they didn't notice it in prior books and I didn't either. So it's definitely in your face to see this time.
@@Thecatladybooknook_PennyD My issue isn't at all that it's there, it's that it's included very clunkily. I'd much prefer it be included more organically and it would read a lot better that way
I think the difference for me is in the first book we infer Kaladins mental problems from what we observe happening and how he acts and in this book the characters have internal or even external monologues where they just tell you what their mental state is.
i get where you're coming from, to a certain extent. there are more and more objections that I see crop up that I really can't completely rationalize away. That being said, I still loved Wind & Truth. I think it had a really strong ending, I think a lot of the characters had really great endings.
You have some good points. Does he need a better editor to cut out a lot of weird writing decisions and challenge him on using real world words like therapy in a really clunky way? absolutely
Does he need new alpha and beta readers to tell him all his humor is starting to sound the same? absolutely
But can he still deliver a damn fine story with a absolutely fire ending? also absolutely, from my perspective
I was really worried leading up to W&T, worried he couldn't stick the landing, worried he'd lose the plot because of cosmere influences or weird modern day writing, and the preview chapters didn't do much to put those worries to rest, but after that... he delivers.
As to the representation stuff, that's all him going on a journey. I'd be curious about which points you read that sounded like Brandon thinly disguising his own philosophy with the Mormon church, though.
I'm glad it still worked really well for you! I know a lot of people have made similar comments where they do recognize issues but still enjoyed it, and if I do pick it back up I hope I get there. For the comments that sounded like him talking to the Mormon church, there's a comment really early on about all religion being "horseshit" and then later on (past where I actually got) I've seen some excerpts where there are some pretty transparent discussions about following the letter vs. spirit of a religion with Szeth. Il
Hey, I really enjoyed the video. I found it really refreshing to hear a more critical viewpoint of the Stormlight Archive as opposed to the blanket positive statements you can hear nearly everywhere else.
I will say that you sort of lost me on the representation concern for the LGBT elements of the story. I feel like, when talking about representation, that concern should be presented very specifically. Are you saying that Sanderson doesn't have the writing chops to properly present those characters in his stories, are you taking issue with the fact that the characters exist in the story, or is it some other point of concern with the writing?
You can't say that sexuality isn't talked about or presented when the Shallan/Adolin betrothal, the Shallan/Kaladin/Adolin love triangle, Dalinar wanting to marry his actual sister-in-law, and the Jasnah/Wit dynamic are major/minor plot points. I can't look at that and then take issue when the story takes an aside.
I can definitely say that romance and humor (I struggle through most Lift chapters) are not Sanderson's strong point, but I'm not going to take issue with the occasional aside to LGBT characters every now and then.
I do agree with most everything else though.
Very fair question, and from some other comments I think I should have been clearer. For me it feels like the way those elements are included (sexuality in general, not just LGBT sexuality) is very forced and very clunky. There have been relationships for sure, but it seems as if a lot of the elements are just being thrown in your face here. Specifically with LGBT inclusion, for me, it's much better to just have this be an organic part of the story rather than calling a lot of attention to it like it's something abnormal. I do believe Sanderson is coming from a good place with trying to be more inclusive in his books (something he's very much lacked previously) but the execution here felt very clunky and awkward at times.
I agree with a lot of the criticism here, especially in regards to the quality of the prose dipping throughout the series. The focus of the mental health issues also went from exploration with the other characters to constantly beating us over the head with introspection.
Do not understand the complaint about the diversity being forced, sexuality has always been part of the series. We have plenty of heterosexual characters exploring their interests and thinking about them even in The Way of Kings.
How are authors supposed to introducide non normative relationships? Where is the line drawn at something being forced or simply something naturally coming into the story?
So the forced inclusion comment isn't even only about sexuality, but WaT does seem to focus a lot more on character sexuality than the previous books in general. For diversity I think it's a fantastic thing to have, but it should just be there and not be a "hey look this person is *blank*" because that to me makes it feel like it's forced
I'm 70% into WaT and I agree with you on most points. Even as someone who greatly enjoyed RoW this book feels like a step down in terms of writing. I haven't read Elantris in quite a few years but I think certain parts of this book has worse writing than his first published novel.
My biggest problem is with the character introspections. They don't feel organic or earned like they did in the earlier books. I think there isn't enough 'show' and too much 'tell'. I want to feel the heaviness of the characters struggles as they go through tough situations like in the previous books, not have some modern words pulled from a mental health textbook telling me what they are thinking.
I'm still enjoying the book though. I'm already attached to the characters, there is so much stuff happening, many reveals and I have faith the ending will not disappoint.
I just wish these issues would have been ironed out during revisions because at its core it's still a great SA book.
Yeah it really, really does feel like a big step down. Maybe he will hear enough of that and reign himself in for the next one, but it was just too much for me when I stated WaT.
I’m a big Brandy Sandy fan I’m caught up on everything apart from Alcatraz, and i can 1000% see and agree with your argument that WaT is catering to the masses and the editing process suffers by Sando’s stardom (we’ve seen the same happen Stephen King)
I watched a Q&A where the audience was asking Sando for more LGBT representation so absolutely now its sudden inclusion does look like catering to the fans. I don’t think any of this is bad necessarily, like you said, all just an observation. 👍
Yeah I think he's coming from a good place with the representation, but it's just very poorly executed. I do think him trying to appease the masses in general while also just not getting a lot of editing is a big part of the issues. At first I read your comment as saying you had read Alcatraz and I was going to say I was impressed lol
I think one of the key points you said about the core heart and feel has changed. Part of it is forcing in modern ideas and perspectives without blending them naturally into the story. I agree it feels like his circle while it has grown with beta readers and others, I think there are fewer people pushing back on some ideas and there are more influences pushing him to add more and more modern ideas just to have them in there. I finished the book after reading it nonstop for 2 days, and I thought part of the letdown was just that I read it too fast, but I also think some of it is that truly the book was a bit of let down in and of itself, partly just because the anticipation and expectations practically always are higher than the actual experience, but also because it is losing some of that soul it seemed to have. Adding real world curse words, some scenes and themes is shifting Sanderson from being an author I can blanket recommend to needing to add some qualifications and flags especially when talking with younger cousins or others. I also agree that the length was unnecessary, and it dragged on at times. I liked the last little bit with Kaladin. Some of the developing story and the associated themes around Adolin are odd considering how oaths play such an important role. (I don't want to spoil, so I'll leave it vague).
I typically would read new Stormlight books in a few days as well so can get that, but yeah the feel really just was different from page one with this one. A lot of people have still enjoyed the book, which is great, but it does seem like it's just getting further and further away in terms of writing from where we started
Really appreciate you sharing your honest thoughts, even if I heavily disagree with some of it. For me, the diverse representation in Stormlight is just wonderful to see, even if it lacks a lot of nuance and subtlety at times. I could personally forgive those little quibbles, especially considering how marvelously Sanderson stuck the landing here. His imagination is truly unparalleled, and I have nothing but respect and admiration for how he executed the ending to this first arc of Stormlight.
I hope Sanderson pleasantly surprises you and still delivers some stories in the future that you can love!
Appreciate you offering your side as well! I can definitely see your point about the representation being a net positive even if it could be done better for sure. I am not giving up on Sanderson by any means, but I may put him down a while before coming back.
@@nikosbookreviews Hope that break will rekindle your excitement again!
I just finished Wind and Truth and oh boy. I was conflicted about the direction of the story during the beginning and middle parts but the end floundered tremendously. Just wow. So much of the initial draw for me has been thrown out with that ending. Honestly it’s not shocking as I felt the shift in RoW but this is so disappointing. I started reading Stormlight in high school and I can’t say even teenage me would have enjoyed this conclusion. I did enjoy some of the book such as Szeth’s flashbacks and Adolin’s chapters but unfortunately that isn’t enough to save it for me. So baffled at the stark drop in quality even from RoW.
Sorry to hear that! I've heard from a lot of people that still thought it was worth it, but I feel like I'd be in the same boat as you with just being even more disappointed if I'd finished it.
I am a completionist so I had to finish the book to get it out of my mind. The audiobook made it slightly easier for me to get through. But just so many confusing choices on the part of Sanderson. The finale was clunky at best and felt like it was trying to capitalize on previous emotional story beats to get the readers to connect with sub-par storytelling. The more I think on it the more I grow to dislike the implications of the ending. I wouldn’t dissuade anyone, especially long time fans, from reading it to soothe their curiosity but perhaps keep your expectations low and you’ll get more out of it. Conflicted feelings all around.
@trinketspirit Yeah there's definitely a chance I pick it back up, but I also just have not been even mildly tempted since putting it down so will have to see. The audio was helping me a bit as well...but just not enough lol
@@trinketspiritso which parts didn’t work for you?
Just a heads up, your audio volume is low!
Thanks!
It's going to take time for me to digest what I've read from this book, its a weird one for sanderson and feels like it needed a couple more drafts. Ending was good in an overall sense but for one where the gap is planned to be about 10 years till the next? I'm not sure that its a case of him being to big for his editors or something, the thought ran through my mind, could also just be a side effect of the size of this thing and needing more time to cook. There were parts where I was listening and it felt almost like things were happening too quickly, where major developments were coming without the proper setup.
idk, I'm usually iffy on the latest stormlight book, possibtly my feelings will get better on a re-read
Well it's a huge book, so definitely nothing wrong with needing time to digest it all! This one like you said especially when it's the final book in this arc is of course even more important.
The gap is there because he wants to do Mistborn Era 3 (and the Elantris sequels) between Stormlight 5 and 6.
I wonder what Harold Bloom would make of all this nonsense
Not gonna lie, I had to Google who that was 🤣
I think I saw several of your criticisms early (like 30%? early) in Oathbringer and I decided it wasn't feeling like the series I began. There was something just so off about how the characters talked, on top of the "humour", it all felt just too modern. Too glib, sometimes. You know how people usually dislike Shallan's mannerisms? It seemed that everyone got a bit more like Shallan. And then that early on in Oathbringer Kaladin is just shoved to the side and we get Bridge Four chapters. "airsick lowlanders blah blah." Ugh, no. And... the man is not subtle. It became increasingly more of a problem, the mystical doesn't feel mystical, it feels mechanical in these books.
Yeah I feel like I was willing to overlook a lot for a while but it just is so much worse in WaT that it was jarring and just really put me off
You complain that the books are too focused on internal character issues instead of the world, which is funny because I have the opposite complaint. I see too much focus on the world, lol. And to the extent that characters are focused on, I find that poorly done. Enjoyed listening to your thoughts.
That's interesting, does sound like we have a similar conclusion but for different reasons! The focus on the world part is typically something I'm a big fan of in fantasy though, son to a surprise that's something I really look for!
I liked Wind and Truth but it would have benefited for some more revisions before release. I agree that editing of this book wasn’t as good as it was for previous releases. However, I love the story and character arcs. I hope to see more from Taravangian in other cosmere novels. Hopefully, someone from Sandersons team sees your video and does something about quality control.
I think a lot of people are in the same boat where they recognize the issues but enjoy it anyway and that's great! Ha, I don't know that my video will get to Sanderson's team, but I do hope they hear enough about this kind of thing enough to make changes in the future!
Reading the word "therapist" in the books really makes me cringe.
There were a lot of our world terms/phrases that just felt so out of place for me
I loved it! but to be fair I’m the wider audience he was trying to appeal to lol.
@@derekhand7904 Hey well I'm glad it at least is having the intended effect for him!
It feels like books 1,2 are different entities from 3,4. Ofc that is my opinion, i will still love WoK till my last breath but 4 and 5 are just not my cup of tea, thank you for the video 💯behind you. :)
Yeah there really has been a big change, and so I think it's only natural it's going to work for some and not others!
Sanderson's writing has always been juvenile. But in the early days he was still that kid reading under his blanket with a flashlight saying "THIS IS AWESOME". Now he's an industry. The joy has been gone for a long time. I've always had a touch and go relationship with his books. I've DNF'd a bunch of them, but I've at least started a lot of them. I kept going back even though I had regular grievances (poor prose, YA feel, bad jokes, cartoony characters). When I DNF'd Oathbreaker I finally said I'm done with him. Also, fwiw, Stormlight Archive is by far the most overrated fantasy series of all time.
This book broke me. Such an utter failure. I’m a cosmere god in my friend group. I’ve reread every cosmere book multiple times. But WaT is analysis paralysis at its worst. By the start of WaT we’ve read over 4,000 pages of stormlight books, you dont need to explain a characters reasoning for every action, we know. You don’t need to say why this moment matters, we KNOW. For one who writes about broken characters who embrace setbacks but strive to change and be better - it’s unbelievable how little he’s invested in trying to be a better writer or find a capable editor. Quantity > Quality by Brandon Sanderson.
Yeah I'm unfortunately in a very similar spot here, it just isn't the quality of the earlier books, and without major changes I feel like it can only go further downhill
I agree! It has shifted to younger and broader audiences. Can't stand the humour, can't stand how heavy handed the themeing is, can't stand the unjustified page counts. I'm scared to go back and read book 1 now - ahhhh, i loved the plains storyline in it! But then he went in a totally diff direction plot wise and i've been dropping off :( And now with the writing shift, i can't
Yeah I absolutely get it, I think I'll always love the early books (especially the first one) but the shift has just really been big
it sounds like Sanderson just isn't for you based upon how many things you can't stand about him. I happen to love his writing.
@@down-the-rabbit-hole Might just be his newer style. I really liked WoK, Elantris and Final Empire.
This is why stories produced for nerds and geeks, on whatever medium, die on the vine. I really wanted to get into Sanderson, but all I keep seeing is how bad they have become. So, not gonna waste my time. It’s almost as bad as ASOIAF. Martin will never finish and all we will remember is the last season of the show.
Luckily for me I was never a fan of ASOIAF so not one I'm waiting on lol
Did you pick it back up again and tough it out?
At this point i'm considering just reading the Wikipedia and then stop caring about his books altogether. He's leaned into 'Marvelising' the Cosmere and I hate it.
I haven't even been a little tempted at this point to be honest, it'll be sometime next year if I do. Everything I've heard (and I've also not been shying away from spoilers) has me even more convinced putting it down was the right call for me
I was excited to read the Way of Kings, but I had to quit 500 pages in. It was incredibly boring, and the story was very repetitive and was not progressing at all. I don’t care how long a book is so long as the plot moves, WOK is as insufferably slow
I do like my long, slow books, and I personally loved Way of Kings, but yeah if book 1 felt too long and slow, it was probably a good call not to continue! The books have continued getting longer and longer
I am also a bit disappointed and we need to say it. The emperor has no clothes. The first 4 were excellent, but he failed to stick the landing. I really think the 10 days as a concept was a mistake as he wrote himself into a corner.
I do wish you had finished wind and truth for the purpose of a more refined critique. It's more than the 9th grade level writing, there are several glaring problems with this novel that feel incredibly lazy and amateur for a writer like Brandon.
I may still try to pick it back up at some point, but at the same time I don't really want to force myself through 1300 more pages just for a review
Oh my god! You don’t LOVE everything that Sanderson writes?!?! Unsubscribe 😂😂😂 jk of course
And unsubscribed... j/k!
Yeah, that's interesting. I know Andrew has been saying that a few hundred pages could have been cut out. But all of the specifics that you're bringing to the table are things that I would have issues with as well. I think I'll still read it when I get to it in February, but if it's like you say then I'll have a hard time picking it back up with he starts it up again unless he corrects course.
Hahaha, I did expect a few angry comments! I still may pick it back up at some point as well, but I was not enjoying it and honestly haven't been even mildly tempted to pick it back up since putting it down, so will have to see!
5:02 yea ima stop listening here. At least finish the book if ur gonna cite off a bunch of things u find wrong with the authors direction. 80 pages?! I’d understand if u read half or a even a quarter but 80 pages
Which is exactly why I included what I did at the beginning of the video 😂 I've also talked extensively with others and seen lots of examples in this book, as well as witnessed the change in previous books
@ I hear u man, and im not saying your opinion is invalid. Its just i prefer to hear commentary from someone who read a decent portion of the book they’re speaking on.
@@lamaj26 And that's totally fair! This is more about the series as a whole than just this book specifically, but yeah I'm sure there's a ton of other WaT content out there that'll be more in depth on this book specifically!
I really enjoyed the book but lots of these criticisms seem valid.
I'm not a fan of the spoon-feeding. Sometimes Sanderson shows us something about a character and then has someone tell us the same thing.
The inner monologues and focus on character is not a terrible thing IMO, but combined with the spoonfeeding it detracts.
The humour is a little hit and miss. I like it for the most part.
The fan service style representation is . . . fine. It's often clunky but I get thats it's probably loved by some other readers who don't always feel represented in fantasy, i guess if you're going to have a D-list character be trans or whatever, you want it to be unambiguous if the goal is inclusion.
The other issue for me is both a plus and minus, and thats the cosmere connections. There's a whole lot of magic systems, shards, gods, demi-gods, spren, hearlds, dragons, seons, orders, realms and factions in the book. This is great, but also a little overwhelming at times.
Yeah I think a lot of people are probably on the same camp as you where they definitely recognize the issues, but enjoy it anyway, and that's great! For me the bad just started to outweigh the good and I wasn't enjoying it, and so decided to put it down for now.
I’m a bit over 600 pages in. This is the least amount of fun I’ve had reading a Stormlight book. I’ll finish it, looking forward to the ending but Stormlight just may leave my top 5 series.
Yeah I can get that, I really didn't want to push through because I was immediately not having a good time
I agree 100%. This is not just Sanderson though - it is all trad pub Fantasy. It ties into the whole DEI BS that you need to push in order to be published. Sanderson has gone all in on the DEI BS and we are going to see it a lot more in his works. Mental Health is just one aspect of it. There are a lot of people - myself included - who are religious - and we are sick of the constant hatred against us. That is why I love older works. If Sanderson wants to appeal to the largest market, then this is NOT the way to do it. There is a saying - go woke go broke - and we are going to see it happen to Sanderson. I predict we are going to see in sooner than a lot of people suspect.
I do think it's a trend for sure, and sometimes it's done well, sometimes it's not, but for Sanderson I firmly believe it's him pushing it and not anyone outside. I have no issue with the inclusion of any of that kind of thing, I just think he's been sloppy with it and made it feel forced.
@@nikosbookreviews If you are right in thinking that this is just BS pushing his own ideas and not the DEI push then all of the Cosmere is doomed. The people have spoken recently on loads of works that have gone in this direction. Eventually, the people will be heard. I truly think that he is not too big to fail.
This man! 100% agree with you. I made another comment like this on another review and it got deleted. I don’t spend money on woke content, be it movies, tv shows, games, or books. Look at what happened to the MCU after Endgame, or really Infinity War. If Sanderson embraces fan service wokeness, the same will happen to him.
Oh also dam, maybe your own personal prejudice is getting in the way if you have a problem with "lgbt" people just existing in a book.
As I said in the video, I have absolutely no issue at all with any of the representation (whether mental health, LGBT, etc), it just has felt extremely forced and not like a natural part of the world, like he's putting it in there just to say it's there
"Forced diversity" and opinion discarded.
I mean, context is pretty key here, but you do you! I am going to prefer organic diversity over in your face, forced feeling diversity every time. The idea is to normalize diversity which in my opinion is both more helpful and makes the reading experience not clunky.
@@nikosbookreviews But it's a meaningless term. "Forced diversity" is invariably used as a dog whistle to signal dislike of any diversity. Like, what makes it forced? I assume you're referring to Renarin and Rlain?
@Darkblitz777 What makes it feel forced is when there's a lot of attention called to it like it's something that's not just normal instead of having it just be present as an organic part of the story. It's something Sanderson seems to be trying to overcompensate for in this book after the lack in his other books. Actually the specific example I got to was the description of a character as basically an 'emo girl' which felt super out of place. I really think Sanderson is coming at this from a genuine and good place, and I applaud his choice to do it, but his execution of it is just very clunky here.
100%
Yesterday I saw youtube bombarded with reviews of Wind and Truth, but Niko's the one I wanted most to see. Finally he has his opinion up. And he didn't let me down. Most booktubers kiss Brando Sando's butt and I knew just knew Niko would not. Personally I've read five Sanderson books, the first Mistborn and his four Wax & Wayne novels. He is a capable professional writer with a helluva of an imagination. Me, he bores me to tears with his goody goody sexless characters regardless of character development. Hard magic systems? Yawn. Thanks for the straight shooting, Niko, youtheman.
I've enjoyed quite a lot of his stuff over the years, but yeah unfortunately this is not one I enjoyed, and yeah I'm always honest on my takes positive or negative
It is so slow paced and so focused on boring worldbuilding. I think it is a terrible book series
Well, it's not anymore so you might like it more now 🤣I absolutely love my slow, worldbuilding books personally