F. Scott Fitzgerald and Hemingway were both drama queens in my opinion more. Now Jack London on the other hand. Peak Alpha male who wasn't a mean drunk with a inferiority complex "Cough Cough " Hemingway "Cough Cough".
@@soyjoyywell that's because we can't assume a fictional voice in a poem is representative of the poet's actual views and beliefs. If I wrote a poem from the perspective of a slaver, then that does not mean I wish to bring back Antebellum slavery.
Manic pixie dream girls were quite common in the teens and twenties. My grandfather was a poet in the teens and 20s. He's all but forgotten but I have his book. He was a part of the first generation to crash into modernity. All the things you do out of habit and all things you avoid because you know pitfalls too--they tried it all first and screwed it all up first as well. Grampa Orrick's first wife, who he married in 1914, was a manic pixie dream girl. She actually was his dream girl at the time, was manic, and described by admirers as a like a pixie. She seduced my grandfather, who then divorced her. She married and Malcolm Cowley (who is largely responsible for our picture of Paris in the 20s) and had an affair with poet Hart Crane. Crane was gay but somehow managed not to be able to resist her manic pixieness. She was Zelda before Zelda but without the mental illness.
12:40 I didn't know Scott and Zelda were the 1920s equivalent of a disaster Tumblr couple. That's very sad they both came from trauma and a difficult family life. Despite everything, I wish things weren't so bad for them.
@@Visplight I mean, they clearly very much seemed to NOT be that much to their resentment and inability to perform to heterosexual expectations even a little. O_o Might as well call fucking Oscar Wilde bi for marrying a chick. -_- Also like... As a certified disaster bi myself. Let's keep the "disaster" part at least semi affectionate shall we? F these spoiled historical ass hats and the conservative catholicism they rode in on.
Kaz: I do not condone bullying dead people One of my history teachers in high school: *literally taught an entire lecture titled 'the biggest loser in history' where he mercilessly made fun of a random ancient dude and strongly implied he caused the Peloponnesian war* Edit: Alcibiades was his name! We used to joke that my teacher was immortal bc he had beef with specific obscure historical figures and knew stuff about them like that they liked to cheat at cards. He always put these people into lectures even though we didn't really need to know them and would teach a larger lesson about history with it, eg Alcibiades was how he taught us about the Peloponnesian war
This guy was really something else. He managed to get sentenced to death in Athens, ran off to Sparta, where he once again pissed of everyone, so he then had to run off to Persia, from where he finally got back to Athens again when his plans to play them against Sparta didn't work out. Also, his "pissing off everyone" included having an affair with the wife of a king protecting him, if I remember correctly. Trying to be that great opportunist but just gathering more and more enemies and death sentences...yeah, I guess loser kinda fits
So there seemed to be this reflection/projection thing going on between them. Not only gender-wise, but their characters. Really interesting. Also, Scott deriding Zelda for her fragility, while being knocked down flat by a comment about his small peepis. Incredible.
Lol it's pretty clear to see she was the much more abusive one. Calling a woman fragile vs completely emasculating your partner are not weighed the same. She was fragile. But hearing you will never please a woman from the woman you are supposed to please can destroy you.
@@slamacat9866 I think he just understands interpersonal relationships better than you. It's easy to type "projecting" when you don't have any experience with the opposite sex.
@@themaskedman221 no the dude openly admitted in his other replies that zelda reminded him of his abusive ex. That's why i said he was projecting. Also dude you can believe whatever you want but it was fairly obvious that zelda and scott were equally abusive and enabling towards each other, even if zelda was the only one who was sent away for it. To say one was more abusive than the other shows a prefrence.
I have BPD and Zelda's behaviour rings a bell. For example, self-harm, rejection dysphoria and erratic emotions are very much BPD things. It's so sad there was no way for her to get the help she desperately needed. Thank you for bringing up different sensitive topics so respectfully and delicately. You are a wonderful creator. EDIT: Not trying to diagnose anybody, just saying I relate to these experiences and am diagnosed. People in the comments point out that diagnosing historical figures does not make sense, agreed.
@@VampiraVonGhoulscout it is one of those harmful stereotypes for sure. I have BPD and i’ve never done that, yet that doesn’t mean other haven’t. I had a friend with bpd who would cut herself to get attention from her boyfriend
@@VampiraVonGhoulscout You're right, thanks for correcting me. I didn't think about the language I was using. Internalized stigma is a thing too with mental illness))
Fitzgerald is my favorite author. But I'm also Black. Every book of his that I've read has some hateful throwaway line that is a bit gut wrenching. It's the hardest thing about loving his writing. I felt similarly about Love in the Time of Cholera, as the worst part of the doctors afair to the female character is that she was partially Black.
I read Love on the times of Cholera mostly bc of the tittle. In the end I HAD to separate my moral and modern views to even slightly enjoy this book..and I still kinda hate it and it’s characters so much
When I was a young teen, I read a book that took place in my country of origin (there aren't that many books in English set in my country), and they basically did not mention the existence of my ethnic group at all even though we make up 10% of the population. Three-quarters of the way through the book, a character from my ethnic group finally came up, as a servant, but I was happy to at least have some acknowledgement. Then he turned out to be some kind of sexually perverted thief and made him out to be as grotesque as possible in the weirdest ways. If I recall correctly, the book literally described his behaviour as "like a dog" or something really weird and off-putting like that. It's hard to put into words how hurtful it is to be a kid and trying to identify with characters and have your only representation be so horrible. I went to leave a negative review only to find that the reviews of that book were overwhelmingly positive and that only made me feel more upset about the situation. Nobody else in the world seemed to have had an issue with the story and that felt so lonely and alienating. And at that age, I didn't really have friends from my ethnic group that I could share my feelings with and have them sympathize. What's worse is that this isn't a book from the 20s, it was published fairly recently. I'm so sorry that so many of you also have to go through this with such a celebrated author, although it is somewhat comforting to hear that I'm not alone. I wish I had known there were others who felt the same when I was a kid. This definitely makes me feel very differently towards F. Scott Fitzgerald and I doubt I'll ever pick up a book by him knowing this.
@@monkiram I'm sorry you went through that, it's horrible. Also speaks to the implicit biases the readers had that they either didn't pick up on that or just didn't care. It really sucks when you have very little representation, because people will often use these shit ones as their perception of the groups. I had a similar experience when I looked to see if people took issue with Jane Eyre using a scientific racist trope. A lot of people have picked up on it, but a lot seem to have not. Or just explain it through the independent woman lens, when it has a lot to do with an old scientific (racist) theory of racial degeneracy.
Man, the one and ONLY thing I will ever give Fitzgerald is that he doesn't seem to have shuffled Zelda off to an institution to hide her or forget about her, which was incredibly common throughout history. He did seem to genuinely want her to get better, which is heartbreaking, given the time period and medical practices.
@@cathylindeboom4494 Honestly, what else was he supposed to do? She was a danger to herself and others and he sure as hell wasn't qualified to take care of her. There weren't really any options.
@@cathylindeboom4494 she had checked herself into that place. He'd died a few years prior. Periodically she'd check herself in as a way to manage her mental illness
@@sarasthoughts the commenter isn't saying he didn't institutionalize her, they're saying his reasons for doing so where different from those common at the time.
I’ve always taken issue with F Scott getting so much acclaim despite having stolen some of his wife’s own writing. It feels like Zelda was relegated to the shadows of “infamous party gal” and nothing else
She tried to use the name of one of his protagonists (from his first novel) for her book, Save Me The Waltz. He was understandably upset over that, and the fact that she was using the same material that he had been working on for Tender Is The Night. He helped her with the novel's revisions. They both drew heavily on their own experiences and argued over who had the right to their shared autobiographical material. Using a few lines written by someone else (and re-wording it) doesn't mean that an entire novel is plagiarized.
@@Muirmaiden ah, we are arguing semantics. I didn’t claim plagiarism. I said stolen. Not complete copy. And by all means, I don’t excuse Zelda, either. You aren’t wrong, and I don’t mean to suggest you are. But I do think it’s a shame that F Scott has gotten all the applause in the literary world, and that Zelda rarely gets a sniff
@@Muirmaiden he did steal lines and ripped thing literally from her own diary. But, that isn’t to suggest that he manufactured whole novels from it. Or that it’s “plagiarism” all things considered. But, I can’t bring myself to like F. Scott or his methods, or the amount of fluffing everyone gives his writing
@@ClaireElizabethvlogs Most writers take inspiration from other works or their own autobiographical material. It isn't unique to Fitzgerald. I don't doubt that Zelda suffered from being a woman at that time and because of her mental illness. She was definitely his muse, but not the only one. Most of "The Great Gatsby" was inspired by his romance with a Chicago heiress named Ginevra King who ended things with him to marry a man of her own class.
@@Muirmaiden it’s not, you’re right. Unique to him. I do confess a bias that I’m not always the most keen on auto-biographical sort of fiction. It’s always sort of rubbed me as being slightly hindered in the creativity department.
I actually thought when reading GG all that “Nordic race” crap was him mocking upper class people’s deep seeded racism. No surprise tho that those were his real beliefs
@@projectc.j.j3310 because he’s selfish and entitled. He embodies all the flaws of those around him while judging them. He starts off the damn book saying not to judge anyone, and judges them all the whole time. He is a hypocrite and liar. He’s a 30 something year old loser who clings onto his families money and their former prestige. He speaks down on almost everyone around him when he’s a failed stock broker, who got the job via nepotism, and is still on an allowance from his father. He has a woman back home and has an affair with Jordan, along with others. He constantly lies and contradicts himself. He covers up other peoples lies and meddles around with them. He glorified Gatsby when he’s really a villain in all this. He uploads and values the old order and the evil of the time that led to collapse and ruin. The whole book he tries to invoke pathos and paint himself in a sympathetic light when he deserves none of it. He fakes his personality not only to the characters but to the readers. At least the others are brave enough to be themselves and show their true colors in the daylight.
F. Scott Fitzgerald just oozes out Lovecraft vibes. Like really. Both had troubled lives-mental and environmental, were racist, had broken marriages. Also Lovecraft lived from 1890-1936 and Fitzgerald lived from 1896-1940 which are pretty brief lives to say the least. They did manage to pump out some great works although their prejudices reduced their quality.
@@nicholas72611 He really did, if you think about it. His writing can be cumbersome to read, and much of the elements are antiquated, but people can't really deny the fact that he pioneered many concepts in modern horror - hell the analog horror developed recently on TH-cam is Lovecraftian. I don't think there are many authors from his era that can boast having much influence in the modern day as he has.
If we eliminated all the art produced by creators that had personal issues, or were troubled, I'd daresay the majority of some of the greatest works of art in all genres wouldn't exist. We know that people over the ages used art to come to grips with personal problems in fact even today we encourage people to use art for exactly that, and then if it turns out they end up being successful we later attack them for the things that often led them to art in the first place. It's a rather lose/lose situation.
I think it’s ok to engage with art made by bad people as long as it at least crosses your mind what might be under the surface. I’m not a death of the author advocate but I also don’t think that we should completely write off a work as having nothing meaningful to say just because the author was a bad person.
@@NelsonStJames Although no one of any consequence is saying that art produced by 'problematic' people should be eliminated. The conversation is far more about how should we address the fact that people who have done great things have also done some really shitty horrible things.
I love F. Scott Fitzgerald’s writing and he’s one of my main inspirations for prose in particular. That being said, I never get tired of people dragging him for the weird and bigoted person he was.
I agree. F. Scott Fitzgerald wrote the great American novel, "The Great Gatsby," and no one can ever take that away from him. Both he and Ernest Hemingway had Holy Terrors for mothers. There is a reason God gives each of us only one mother. We'd never survive two. When he wrote, "Tom and Daisy were careless people. They smashed up things and creatures, and then retreated back into their vast wealth, or carelessness, or whatever it was that kept them together, and let other people clean up the mess they made," Fitzgerald wrote the best description of the rich and powerful that has ever been written in the English language.
Listen, the man is one of my favourite authors and has been a big inspiration in general but boy oh boy do I love to see a deep analysis dragging on bigoted behaviour! Especially in such a polite and intellectual way!
@@skeletorlikespotatoes7846It does make sense because these people had many contemporaries who weren’t as bigoted. And luckily I’m not a bigot and actively try learn more about others to prevent unconscious bias so we’ll never know how I wouldn’t turned out but we do know how he did and it wasn’t good. So he gets the scorn he deserves
@@di7209 ah no they didn't 😂. The issue of course is how many of those people were simply copying their value systems from much more forward minded thinkers.
OMG! 😂 Your comment just helped me figure out what was tickling my brain watching this video!! My brain, for some reason: It's definitely that bit from The Princess Bride, "Have fun storming the castle!" (Why brain, why?? 😂 The answer to everything _cannot_ always be The Princess Bride!!)
Walt Disney, Ernest Hemingway and F. Scott Fitzgerald during WWI were deemed not fit for battle, they were all ambulances drivers. This was emasculating to them as young men, yet all three found success. Hemingway spent his life proving them wrong.
Off topic but important: Kaz is the literal embodiement of what I imagined when I read the word ''handsome'' in Victorian novels. We can't help but stan.
Fitzgerald fits into the same category of historical figure as Lovecraft for me. They could be described with, “he was, objectively, kind of a terrible person. However, at the end of the day I can’t help but pity them more than anything else.”
Would you consider doing a similar video with Zelda as the front runner instead of the side character? If there's enough info on her it would be interesting to explore the same topic but from the opposite angle.
Let's not forget Hemmingway's overt PERFORMANCE of masculinity, presenting himself as having been FAR more adventurous and manly than the reality of his booze-soaked writerly life. Terrific rundown of this history! Thank you.
"I can make them better!" Zelda and Scott: I can make him/her worse >:)) honestly Zelda and Scott could've been totally chaotic friends, I like to think that if they were born in the modern world they'd be an iconic bestie pair
I LOVE YOU for using the term “care plan”. I work in a nursing home and help out in social services where mental health care plans are my job. It’s partly my job to ask residents questions in order to ascertain emotional and mental pain and trauma in order to develop a care plan that centers around Trauma Informed Care. Trauma Informed Care would have served both Fitzgeralds well. That and just therapy.
Loved this and love your stuff... Please do a thing dedicated to Zelda Fitzgerald. Still maintain that she waa more more intresting than her husband.. Would never deny that F Scott was a good writer but he was an observer, like Mencken. In terms of sheer creativity, Zelda was far more interesting but, given the period, no one was ever going to to focus on the woman at the expense of the man.
In France we we’re not taught about Fitzgerald in school, and I only discovered his work when I took an optional English litterature course in high school…which happened at the same time of the release of The Great Gatsby movie. I’be been very drawn to learning more about American litterature since, thank you for this brief moment of history ! In France, I feel like American litterature if thought very poorly of, which is a shame, as most of our contemporary writers were friends with American writers, I think it’s only natural to learn about both !
Wow that makes me so sad as an American the idea that American literature is thought poorly of particularly. My favorite American author as a child was Edgar Allen Poe who influenced Baudelaire I know, it would probably break my heart to know the French think Poe isn't good enough to read.
Have you ever read Little Women by Louisa May Alcott? It's my favorite of all time...if you've got the time. It's a long book but it gives off a feeling of being...home if that makes sense?
@@nattr612 You can still value Lovecraft even if you despise his racist language and themes. If the work has many different ideas, it is possible to concentrate on some of them more than others. I know many Marxists, who still enjoyed "Call of Cthulhu" because they tried to mainly pay attention to the good parts. That being said, a conversation about the treatment of race in these works is incredibly important. It is my belief that at least in schools this discussion on treatment of race should be had before reading these works to make sure, that no-one gets their views influenced by this outdated and demeaning outlook.
@@themage4232 I've gotten dragged by Lovecraft stans for pointing out his blatant racism and anti-Semitism and been accused of trying to 'cancel' him when all I said was that it's important to recognize how his work is linked to his bigoted beliefs. Like you stated, it's important to discuss the context and the authors' beliefs when linked to their work-as human beings, our bias will ALWAYS bleed into our work whether we intend it to or not. There's a big difference between trying to censor work and acknowledge it's problematic aspects and have a healthy dialogue about it.
@@faiirest3198 The problem I have with the Lovecraft discourse is it doesn't go far enough. The man was racist especially for his time, but what I can't understand is how time and time again people don't understand how this is part of his general aesthetic and how it is much different than "racism" as most people see it. He was obsessed with degeneration and decay, and managed to say awful things about almost every race that wasn't mythological in origin. Even in polaris, among some idealized "northern" peoples, he as the protagonist was a weakling cripple among them. In The Lurking Fear, the main antagonist is a French family who is given the Habsburg treatment until the devolve into something inhuman. In Late Arthur Jermyn, he explores the feeling of oneself being an outsider, although how this is elaborated in the story itself has racial overtones no doubt. As far as the general obsession with Race - Lovecraft is one of the few 1920's authors who were pulpy in nature who are read commonly. Einstein, quantum mechanics, early electronics; just about every "cutting-edge" technology or field of study that was emerging at that time gets written in to his stories. Unfortunately, one "cutting edge" technology from that era was Eugenics, and many more people than is commonly talked about endorsed this study, including the founder of Planned Parenthood. The real clincher for me is when in his later work, Mountains of Madness, he comes to recognize the alien progenitor race as "man" despite them being 100 percent alien to him. Why? Because he sees that they bury their dead and have inner consciousness. I mean, if only more people now could adopt that outlook. I think its funny how so many q-anon types are interested in extraterrestrials when they can't even create commonality between members of their own species.
I recall a couple of anecdotes about Zelda from the Nancy Mitford biography of her. When the Fitzgeralds were on holliday in the South of France there was a cliff overlooking jagged rocks that succumbed to the crashing tides. Zelda liked to stand on the cliffs edge and dive into the water; narrowly missing the lethal rocks below. Fitzgerald accompanied her one evening and they both dove in. But Fitzgerald later admitted that he had been terrified; but Zelda was fearless. "Zelda is a strong person, while I'm a weak one." [Paraphrasing] A male friend of Zelda's recalled going to a cinema with her. A documentary about undersea life was showing. When an octopus glided by the camera Zelda cried out - "My God, what is it !?" - and buried her head in his shoulder. That stark contrast between a vibrantly alive and fearless person and the horrible mental fragility later in Zelda's life has always stayed with me.
I actually find it comforting that a lot of very talented people are also colossal fuckups. You can either kid yourself into believing that being a loser won't stop you from greatness or that it's just as well that you never made anything of yourself because famous people didn't live enviable lives anyway. BTW you have the most fascinating fashion and decor of any TH-camr I've ever seen. Living the dream.
I’m a relative of Fitzgerald, so thank you for a small glimpse into the genetic mental illness minefield i’ve walked my entire life without knowing it!
I've read all 5 novels and almost every short story of F. Scott Fitzgerald. It's an interesting world to dive into. Clearly, a lot of the women were based on Zelda in one form or another and the men, Scott himself. It's a shame he didn't live longer and complete The Last Tycoon.
never thought i would relate to fitzgeralds relationship (i was never interested in his biography before). he sounds exactly like my ex, my greatest love and the worst person of my whole life, i literally noticed so many similarities in descriptions and situations. except that my ex was a very shitty writer who had no imagination and a rather bad way with words but still insisted he was great and that i just was jealous of him (i write myself). lmao every day you learn something more. if we were still together hed be proud at the comparison but thank god i fled while i could
I think you left a mediocre artist who cant listen to his own skill and talents and focus his attention on something hes good at, which imo makes for the worst art, from the worst people. I'm sorry. Genuinely. I am glad you fled when you could, but consider the fact you refer to it as FLEEING. I wont ask why, but I think you're much better off, considering that language. Love to you. Be safe.
As someone who fixated on The Great Gatsby and Ftizgerald during my early teenage years, to the point I decided I wanted to change my middle name to Fitzgerald (when I decided to move away from my toxic hometown), this video is a chef's kiss.
18:30 If it’s plagiarism for writers to take interesting phrases they overhear, every writer is a plagiarist. That’s one of the most common things writers do
"He loved to stereotype Mexican characters as lazy or violent, or Native Americans as barbaric." Me, lazing around across my room, only deigning to lift a hand in a 'rock on' motion, "Ayooo, Native American Mention~"
mad that my first point of connection in my brain when they said ppl thinking fitzgerald and hemingway were a couple ended their friendship was….. larry stylinson pls will i ever escape this prison
I read F Scott in school, but after reading Save Me the Waltz later on by Zelda.... My school definitely chose the wrong Fitzgerald for required reading. Zelda's writing is absolute fire.
We just read our own literature… And other European literature in class. That’s it. I mean I do prefer European literature to American anyways but that’s just me.
While I am not a huge Gatsby fan - “Let me ruin everybody’s life around me and then off myself because others might think poorly of me” was not my favorite storyline - I greatly appreciate your ability to separate the art you love from the problematic artist. Your deep dives are remarkable and I love watching your videos!
Putting himself into a situation where that was the natural response purposefully always made it seem like his own death was the end goal. That may have just been my interpretation, of course.
@@McSherrie"Putting himself into a situation" ?? I'm confused Gatsby wanted to run off with Daisy, but Tom accidentally hit Myrtle with Gatsby's car. Tom then blamed Gatsby for the murder and so Wilson killed Gatsby, this builds up a suitable climatic chaotic end theme that juxtaposed the order and control Gatsby wanted in the beginning. So I don't see how he planned to "off himself" or wanted to.
@@hydroking2969 Gatsby only ever cared about two things - well technically he only cared about himself, but that’s another conversation - living the high life and Daisy. When Daisy refused to run away with him, he said that the light went out of the warm world, or something like that, and ceased to care about the world around him. So, when Wilson came to kill him, his response was less than one might expect from someone who wanted to survive. Did he literally kill himself? No. Did he want to die? Yes.
@@McSherrie "Did he want to die? Yes". I still disagree with this, in the last conversation with Nick before he left on chap 8 was " We walked slowly down the steps. ‘I suppose Daisy’ll call too.’ He looked at me anxiously as if he hoped I’d corroborate this. ‘I suppose so.’ ‘Well-goodbye.’ " And though i agree with you that Gatsby sadly only cared about himself, that Daisy was just some rare gem he wanted, he still did not want to die and even made that sad comment showing how much desire he still has, even though she left him for Tom. The next is the swimming pool, just like how Gatsby tries to control time, forcing Daisy to say she never loved Tom as a way of him wanting her to erase her time being with him. He also had plans for the day to use the pool with Nick, that was his plan, not to wish to die. He belived he had control of the time for today, but God or destiny took his life abruptly. Also "The light went out of the warm world...and cease to care about the world around him" yes that happened when Daisy rejected him, but that was just him having a broken heart, you typically care little about the things around you when you have a broken heart, but i dont think anyone having a broken heart means they wanna die. Also he wasnt the only bad person , Tom already ruined the marriage cheating with Myrtle and was a hardcore racist. Daisy chose to have the affair instead of leaving when seeing an ex-lover, and Nick kept instigating it.
Do you know anyone who has done a similar video about Sigmund Freud/ will you think about making one? They're always praising him, but I started to think he's not as great as everyone thinks - or maybe that is just my penisenvy talking.
We learned about him briefly in Child Development (I'm an early childhood education major) and the amount of pure rage I had when I read about his "psychosexual" theory was unreal, so I totally second a Bullying Sigmund Freud vid
I had to read from and about him a lot because I study literature and film and his theories influenced both a lot. I oscillate between a weird sympathy for him and mild disgust. Many of his theories are a nice key to the narrative of certain movies because they were inspired of them but the thought of people taking his wild assumptions seriously is haunting. I am sure there would be enough material for such a video, especially because he changed a lot throughout his life and it’s tragedies (like his daughter dying and of course the rising antisemitism).
i took AP Psych this year and…some things he believed are extremely disturbing like the whole psychosexual thing and that all young boys have an oedipedus complex as small children…like ??
People are not praising him if they really researched him, he contributed to the science, but moderns ideas are different, it's thought he just projected his own life and feelings on others, especially sexual ones.
I find it really saddening that Zelda did her very best to work on her mental health but the resources she needed just weren't there for her. It takes a lot to constantly swallow your pride and admit you need help and she did all she could
as someone with adhd who loves all things history, i often find that these types of videos do not keep my attention. Your channel is wonderful i find it easy to to sit through your videos and i thank u for that! :D
Their friends Gertrude Stein and Alice B. Tokales were a lesbian couple and Jewish. It was Gertrude's habit to only talk to the men at her parties, while Alice spoke to the women. It wasn't just Zelda. Hemingway's wife talked about it too. In "A movable feast," Hemingway talked about going on a skiing weekend with Fitzgerald. He described Fitzgerald as s hypochondriac who spent most of the trip in bed. Both men were extremely alcoholic. Fitzgerald developed Alcohol-induced paranoia first, and then Hemingway later did the same. Fitzgerald viewed the rich as inherently different from other people, while Hemingway viewed them as the same, except for having more money.
I wish we were friends IRL so we could infodump historical facts on eachother. I love your videos and your fashion sense makes my little dandy heart flutter. Thank you for your service.
It’s actually really nice knowing someone else is a little ashamed to like The Great Gatsby. I finished it in a day when I got it in school, it is just so good. You read something different with every read
This was fascinating! I used to kind of idealize F. Scott and Zelda’s relationship as two creatives in a whirlwind romance, but it seems like they really just couldn’t coexist in a healthy way. Thanks a lot for sharing this with us! God bless you :)
My wife and I are more than a little obsessed with Zelda and the works of those two… we’ve taken a trip to their past home and museum and it was really very neat and bizarre… have a cookbook of their favorite dishes paired alongside whatever insane party story goes along with the dish, such as the tomato soup F Scott dumped everyone’s watches and jewelry into during one of his tantrums
This just makes me even more irritated by the depiction of F. Scott and Zelda in Woody Allen's film Midnight in Paris. I saw this film many years ago, (before I found out the awful truth about Woody Allen), and initially really liked it, but even back then I remember thinking, "Why is the main character trying to glorify and romanticize the Fitzgerald's marriage? Wasn't their relationship notoriously messed up?" The movie even represents Scott as the level-headed respectable one while Zelda is portrayed as jealous and unstable.
I read the entirety of The Great Gatsby aloud to my public school English classes for twenty years. That is how much I love it and you better not misquote. I have a whole shelf in my library that is dedicated to Fitzgerald and Company. I would say that your assessment is fair and I enjoyed it very much. I'd like to point this out: Myer Wolfsheim's nose is wildly exaggerated in the scene at The Metropole. Was Gatsby black? His hair was "cropped." When they cross the bridge into NYC they note black people in a luxury car and Nick observes that even "Gatsby could happen." The gay element is all over the novel.
As someone who's been reading Gatsby - not annually, mind you 🙃 - for 30 years, I think that's kind of the point. It's not that Gatsby is Black, or that Nick (and Jordan, let's not forget Jordan!) is gay; it's that they *could* be, and it wouldn't change the novel. It defies simple categorization yet allows for people to see themselves represented if that is the reading they bring to it. It's a romance written in the era of modernism; yet has an argument as the first (a first, anyway) postmodern novel. I mean, surely Scott didn't see it that way, he wanted to be a) rich, and b) well regarded. At the same time, what he crafted here - perhaps in spite of himself - is a work that rewards many interpretations.
There’s another video essay I love by sin squad about the queer theory readings in gatsby and how nick’s status as a closeted gay/bi man informs his need to feel trustworthy. Also she talks about mr mckee which is great.
I've been looking forward to this since your Instagram post! The way you explain and disseminate information makes it both very approachable and entertaining. If you would ever speak publicly once the world is safer, I would gladly pay to attend a lecture. On another point- from the friendships I've had with self identifying cis-het men there is a lot of unabashedly showing each other their nether regions. It was nearly weekly that I'd have to see as one would be very openly showing the group and they insisted I should be fine with it if I wanted to be treated like "one of the guys."
After hearing the descriptions of Scott and Zelda's antics as a couple: oh my god, I knew like 3 different couples like this in the theatre school at college
Just started the video, but I’d love to recommend F. Scott Fitzgerald’s short story “Babylon Revisited”. It’s a brilliant and short look into how Fitzgerald masterfully used his prose to tell his slow-motion-trainwreck of a story, and I’d love it if more people read it.
As someone who enjoys researching Fitzgerald, I love how this information was put together and presented. Thank you for the detailed and thoughtful video!
Love the video. As a literature professor, I laughed at “weird guy with a lot of issues” because it applies to *so many* dudes in the Western canon…very accurate…
This was probably said a thousand times in the comments already, but in "A Moveable Feast" Hemingway often misrepresented what had actually happened to his own benefit to look even cooler, which infuriated a lof of his Paris-era friends and ended several friendships altogether. With Fitzgerald he always wanted to look like an older brother, a sort of literary mentor, and Fitzgerald often pushed him back because he never felt Hemingway to be superior to him in any way I don't know about all of the other stuff between the two, but it is certain that the penis evaluation thing in "A Moveable Feast" shoud be taken with a grain of salt. Don't know if the story is entirely made up or just exaggerated, but since Hemingway lies throughout the book, that event doesn't seem reliable as well.
Also, my ex bf was so into Fitzgerald and Hemmingway. I always said, "Idk, Fitzgerald just seems like such a bratty, spoiled douche in his writing." Well, now I see that he was exactly that, and exactly why it's so fitting my ex liked him so much, ha!
She was racist and abusive to, just because terrible things happened to her doesn’t mean she is exempt from criticism. Let’s say insted, they lived sad lives were sad people but had talent. Maybe if they had better help at that time things would have changed for the, however they are still in the nicest way said, pricks. Zelda didn’t deserve better, their child did.
@@familyvoid nobody deserves to die (debatable for pedos and racist) but I’m saying it’s not like she was in a full out I’m a victim abusive relationship, she isn’t Scott free for blame she did shitty things too. I’m saying maybe let’s not sympathise with a racist okay! 😀🧍♀️
I started watching your videos while preparing for an exam and now I really can't stop watching every single one of them again and again??? You basically do all the hard work of researching information through many sources, and are very good at explaining in a exhaustively way. Really glad I've found your channel!
TS Eliot and Ezra Pound is the duo you're looking for. They'd get kicked out of parties for refusing to stop talking like Hollywood minstrel show characters.
Oh my goodness, it's so validating to hear that good writers thought that Scott couldn't write realistic characters. I like the Great Gatsby but it's more of a fable than an accurate portrayal of humans.
God, imagine having so many literal cries for help constantly and your SO ignores you so hard that he uses your words and actions in his books as his own. Poor Zelda :( it must have been horrible
@@WhaleManMan thank you! i've frankly had enough of everyone blaming scott for the whole thing. i'm not saying he wasn't shitty, cus they both were mutually horrible to eachother, but he didn't steal whole books and whatnot from her like some people make it out to be. i'd argue that in his case, it was an instance of bad writerly inspiration that i myself have struggled with in the past -- reading something so good and captivating that you can't help but want to implement into your own stories. i thankfully refrained from following through with these urges, but keep in mind that f. scott was majorly struggling with alcoholism, his mental health, AND simultaneously trying to churn out story after story so they can get even half as much income as their expenses (their bad partying habits, zelda's treatments etc.) and while i know this can't and doesn't justify any of his plagiarism, i must say at least it lends insight into the fact that fitzgerald was a human as well, with his own struggles and problems that are usually skimmed over in favour of zelda, where suddenly he's the abusive oppressor. sorry this got so long haha, i'm very passionate about this topic and it is difficult to find like-minded people.
@@stcrletz THEY BOTH SUCKED THANK U, the main reason a lot of feminists see it as one sided and Zelda as a 100% victim though is due to the power differential F Scott had as a man (being able to send her to a mental asylum in the first place and being able to reap the rewards of writing as a man) but to say the toxic abuse wasn’t mutual is uncharitable. She was cheating on him (either physically or emotionally) far before he did during their tenure in Paris and put him down as much he did her. They shoulda never been w each other but w/o each other we wouldn’t have Gatsby so eh
You should watched the film Haxan (1922). It portrays itself as a horror, then reveals itself to be about mental illness and how poorly the mentally ill are treated. The ending will blow you away.
its interesting, with lovecraft no one can ever shut up about him having been racist while with many other authors it gets swept under the carpet like nothing else
nah bc ppl have declared platonic friendships of mine "gay" in the past, as if they know anything about my friends and our boundaries, just bc we were really comfortable around each other and these people loved to make fun of the "closeted lad with internalised homophobia" (and they saw my friendships like that, in the sense that i was just in denial abt my feelings for them or something). im bi, but these friendships were platonic, and that's all they were. its annoying when people see two male friends being comfortable around each other, so it's automatically gay to them. idk if im biased bc of that, but ppl declaring hemingway and fitzgerald as gay and in a relationship w each other annoys me. i love looking for queer ppl and homosexual/homoerotic relationships in history, but this just rubbed me the wrong way for some reason
@@roeismi no need to get snappy mate. my opinion has changed within the year thay i posted that, but it doesn't take away the fact that ppl shipping me w my friends is flippin annoying. (these dead guys arent gonna know tho and finding queer history is important for lgbt ppl -that's how my opinion has changed)
Hiii! Just wanted to tell you that you have big "main character" vibes. Like, I would love to write a character inspired by you So, yeah... You're super cool!
I didn't learn any of what you've covered in school, and I'm fairly surprised to be honest (thought a lot of what I've read makes more sense now, and I can't help but think if all this took place nowadays, with the level of toxic these two would likely have their own reality show.... it also pains me that the beautiful fool remarks were genuine feelings regarding someone's own child, that is heartbreaking) I enjoy your videos, you have a very pleasant tone, and I continue to learn about topics I admittedly likely wouldn't dig into myself (though had it been readily available back in the day, such as this video, that might be different). Thank you!
“…women’s valid emotions being passed off as hysteria” Not even 3mins in, nvr see this person nor their channel before, but I’m immediately hooked and impressed. Just subscribed- now to finish the vid! Edit: their eyebrows are AMAZING
I just wanted to say that I really enjoy your videos, I feel like I always learn a lot from them and you have a great way of presenting that's very easy to follow!
Don't forget to get on on Atlas VPN's awesome deal for 86% off their 3-year plan by going to atlasv.pn/KazRowe :D
you got sponsored!!!!
Damn thats a lot of %s
Omg get it
F. Scott Fitzgerald and Hemingway were both drama queens in my opinion more. Now Jack London on the other hand. Peak Alpha male who wasn't a mean drunk with a inferiority complex "Cough Cough " Hemingway "Cough Cough".
@@victorrossi2601 here here!!!
Hemingway : Author, Adventurer, Hunter, Fisherman, and of course, Dick Evaluater.
Underrated comment 😂😍
love that xD
Hemingway: Nobody move! I'm a professional dick inspector!
Love this for us
Hemingway might've been the quintessential image of toxic masculinity, but he did understand the most important quality of masculinity: being a bro.
In Arabic, we have a saying; you tolerate from a poet what you wouldn’t from someone else.
😂 - great ❣ 👏👏👏 - Wise people 👍
That is so true!
We need that kind of saying in every language, since people seem to tolerate all sorts of crap if it's wrapped in a bunch of posh words.
@@soyjoyywell that's because we can't assume a fictional voice in a poem is representative of the poet's actual views and beliefs. If I wrote a poem from the perspective of a slaver, then that does not mean I wish to bring back Antebellum slavery.
@@soyjoyywe tolerate far more from CEOs
Most of my history lessons in life have been teachers shamelessly bullying a dead guy, and they were never this polite lol
Honestly same. Quick question, what country are you from?
@@giovanac4820 Brazil ^-^
@@sofialima4521 SABIA! Eu acho que é coisa de professor brasileiro fazer bullying com figuras históricas kkkkkk
@@giovanac4820 KKKKKKK' n duvido nada :v
... Philippines vary depending on who is the dead guy...
Holy fuck, I just realized Zelda was the original manic pixie dream girl.
Yup. There it is
She is literally the epitome of that Waitresses song, "I Know What Boys Like"
Manic pixie dream girls were quite common in the teens and twenties. My grandfather was a poet in the teens and 20s. He's all but forgotten but I have his book. He was a part of the first generation to crash into modernity. All the things you do out of habit and all things you avoid because you know pitfalls too--they tried it all first and screwed it all up first as well. Grampa Orrick's first wife, who he married in 1914, was a manic pixie dream girl. She actually was his dream girl at the time, was manic, and described by admirers as a like a pixie. She seduced my grandfather, who then divorced her. She married and Malcolm Cowley (who is largely responsible for our picture of Paris in the 20s) and had an affair with poet Hart Crane. Crane was gay but somehow managed not to be able to resist her manic pixieness. She was Zelda before Zelda but without the mental illness.
Anyone beginning a comment with "holy EFF" proves how ignorant you truly are!!
Also the original Daisy Buchanan, right?
Remind me never to make an ass of myself near a historian.
Ok!
But you...are a historian...
@@Cat-tastrophee shhhh
@@Cat-tastrophee Uh oh.
What do you think of the word Luscious?
12:40 I didn't know Scott and Zelda were the 1920s equivalent of a disaster Tumblr couple. That's very sad they both came from trauma and a difficult family life. Despite everything, I wish things weren't so bad for them.
No wonder his/their book does numbers on Tumblr
Scott and Zelda is the diametric opposite of gay-lesbian solidarity.
Gay/Lesbian hostility
I'd call them Disaster Bi's myself.
?
They were like the ur- "Yes we're gay, yes we're homophobic. We exist." Fucking Y.I.K.E.S.
@@Visplight I mean, they clearly very much seemed to NOT be that much to their resentment and inability to perform to heterosexual expectations even a little. O_o
Might as well call fucking Oscar Wilde bi for marrying a chick. -_-
Also like... As a certified disaster bi myself. Let's keep the "disaster" part at least semi affectionate shall we? F these spoiled historical ass hats and the conservative catholicism they rode in on.
Kaz: I do not condone bullying dead people
One of my history teachers in high school: *literally taught an entire lecture titled 'the biggest loser in history' where he mercilessly made fun of a random ancient dude and strongly implied he caused the Peloponnesian war*
Edit: Alcibiades was his name! We used to joke that my teacher was immortal bc he had beef with specific obscure historical figures and knew stuff about them like that they liked to cheat at cards. He always put these people into lectures even though we didn't really need to know them and would teach a larger lesson about history with it, eg Alcibiades was how he taught us about the Peloponnesian war
@Scott's Precious Little Account fuck your mother
This guy was really something else. He managed to get sentenced to death in Athens, ran off to Sparta, where he once again pissed of everyone, so he then had to run off to Persia, from where he finally got back to Athens again when his plans to play them against Sparta didn't work out. Also, his "pissing off everyone" included having an affair with the wife of a king protecting him, if I remember correctly. Trying to be that great opportunist but just gathering more and more enemies and death sentences...yeah, I guess loser kinda fits
So there seemed to be this reflection/projection thing going on between them. Not only gender-wise, but their characters. Really interesting.
Also, Scott deriding Zelda for her fragility, while being knocked down flat by a comment about his small peepis. Incredible.
Lol it's pretty clear to see she was the much more abusive one. Calling a woman fragile vs completely emasculating your partner are not weighed the same. She was fragile. But hearing you will never please a woman from the woman you are supposed to please can destroy you.
@@-xphobia Found the man with a fragile ego
@@-xphobia i think you're projecting
@@slamacat9866 I think he just understands interpersonal relationships better than you. It's easy to type "projecting" when you don't have any experience with the opposite sex.
@@themaskedman221 no the dude openly admitted in his other replies that zelda reminded him of his abusive ex. That's why i said he was projecting. Also dude you can believe whatever you want but it was fairly obvious that zelda and scott were equally abusive and enabling towards each other, even if zelda was the only one who was sent away for it. To say one was more abusive than the other shows a prefrence.
i cant even convey in words how much i absolutely fucking adore your content and how perfectly it caters to each of my special interests lmfao
Omg i love ur videos
@@orionliketheconstellation3003 hello thank u!!!!
You here? I could have known you had good taste!
plumbella 😳 omg hii
Your videos are the only thing keeping me patient while waiting for Cottage Living.
I have BPD and Zelda's behaviour rings a bell. For example, self-harm, rejection dysphoria and erratic emotions are very much BPD things. It's so sad there was no way for her to get the help she desperately needed. Thank you for bringing up different sensitive topics so respectfully and delicately. You are a wonderful creator.
EDIT: Not trying to diagnose anybody, just saying I relate to these experiences and am diagnosed. People in the comments point out that diagnosing historical figures does not make sense, agreed.
Yeah same here... she definitely sounds like she might have had BPD
Ehhh....idk I have BPD but I don't think anyone ever harms themselves for attention. I think that's a harmful stereotype.
@@VampiraVonGhoulscout it is one of those harmful stereotypes for sure. I have BPD and i’ve never done that, yet that doesn’t mean other haven’t. I had a friend with bpd who would cut herself to get attention from her boyfriend
@@VampiraVonGhoulscout You're right, thanks for correcting me. I didn't think about the language I was using. Internalized stigma is a thing too with mental illness))
@@artthuritis thanks for you input on this. i've corrected the comment
Fitzgerald is my favorite author. But I'm also Black. Every book of his that I've read has some hateful throwaway line that is a bit gut wrenching. It's the hardest thing about loving his writing. I felt similarly about Love in the Time of Cholera, as the worst part of the doctors afair to the female character is that she was partially Black.
@touraubord you need to step up your taste, this book isn't a stephen king
I read Love on the times of Cholera mostly bc of the tittle. In the end I HAD to separate my moral and modern views to even slightly enjoy this book..and I still kinda hate it and it’s characters so much
When I was a young teen, I read a book that took place in my country of origin (there aren't that many books in English set in my country), and they basically did not mention the existence of my ethnic group at all even though we make up 10% of the population. Three-quarters of the way through the book, a character from my ethnic group finally came up, as a servant, but I was happy to at least have some acknowledgement. Then he turned out to be some kind of sexually perverted thief and made him out to be as grotesque as possible in the weirdest ways. If I recall correctly, the book literally described his behaviour as "like a dog" or something really weird and off-putting like that.
It's hard to put into words how hurtful it is to be a kid and trying to identify with characters and have your only representation be so horrible. I went to leave a negative review only to find that the reviews of that book were overwhelmingly positive and that only made me feel more upset about the situation. Nobody else in the world seemed to have had an issue with the story and that felt so lonely and alienating. And at that age, I didn't really have friends from my ethnic group that I could share my feelings with and have them sympathize. What's worse is that this isn't a book from the 20s, it was published fairly recently.
I'm so sorry that so many of you also have to go through this with such a celebrated author, although it is somewhat comforting to hear that I'm not alone. I wish I had known there were others who felt the same when I was a kid. This definitely makes me feel very differently towards F. Scott Fitzgerald and I doubt I'll ever pick up a book by him knowing this.
@@monkiram I'm sorry you went through that, it's horrible. Also speaks to the implicit biases the readers had that they either didn't pick up on that or just didn't care. It really sucks when you have very little representation, because people will often use these shit ones as their perception of the groups. I had a similar experience when I looked to see if people took issue with Jane Eyre using a scientific racist trope. A lot of people have picked up on it, but a lot seem to have not. Or just explain it through the independent woman lens, when it has a lot to do with an old scientific (racist) theory of racial degeneracy.
@@LeapThroughTheSky oh, the first wife being part Caribbean? Or something like that?
Man, the one and ONLY thing I will ever give Fitzgerald is that he doesn't seem to have shuffled Zelda off to an institution to hide her or forget about her, which was incredibly common throughout history. He did seem to genuinely want her to get better, which is heartbreaking, given the time period and medical practices.
But he did institutionalize her. She died tragically in a fire while institutionalized.
@@cathylindeboom4494 Honestly, what else was he supposed to do? She was a danger to herself and others and he sure as hell wasn't qualified to take care of her. There weren't really any options.
@@cathylindeboom4494 she had checked herself into that place. He'd died a few years prior. Periodically she'd check herself in as a way to manage her mental illness
@@Kardinaalilintu that's not the point. The point is that the commenter is literally stating the opposite of what happened.
@@sarasthoughts the commenter isn't saying he didn't institutionalize her, they're saying his reasons for doing so where different from those common at the time.
I’ve always taken issue with F Scott getting so much acclaim despite having stolen some of his wife’s own writing. It feels like Zelda was relegated to the shadows of “infamous party gal” and nothing else
She tried to use the name of one of his protagonists (from his first novel) for her book, Save Me The Waltz. He was understandably upset over that, and the fact that she was using the same material that he had been working on for Tender Is The Night. He helped her with the novel's revisions. They both drew heavily on their own experiences and argued over who had the right to their shared autobiographical material. Using a few lines written by someone else (and re-wording it) doesn't mean that an entire novel is plagiarized.
@@Muirmaiden ah, we are arguing semantics. I didn’t claim plagiarism. I said stolen. Not complete copy. And by all means, I don’t excuse Zelda, either. You aren’t wrong, and I don’t mean to suggest you are. But I do think it’s a shame that F Scott has gotten all the applause in the literary world, and that Zelda rarely gets a sniff
@@Muirmaiden he did steal lines and ripped thing literally from her own diary. But, that isn’t to suggest that he manufactured whole novels from it. Or that it’s “plagiarism” all things considered. But, I can’t bring myself to like F. Scott or his methods, or the amount of fluffing everyone gives his writing
@@ClaireElizabethvlogs Most writers take inspiration from other works or their own autobiographical material. It isn't unique to Fitzgerald. I don't doubt that Zelda suffered from being a woman at that time and because of her mental illness. She was definitely his muse, but not the only one. Most of "The Great Gatsby" was inspired by his romance with a Chicago heiress named Ginevra King who ended things with him to marry a man of her own class.
@@Muirmaiden it’s not, you’re right. Unique to him. I do confess a bias that I’m not always the most keen on auto-biographical sort of fiction. It’s always sort of rubbed me as being slightly hindered in the creativity department.
cant stop looking at the adorable moomin plushies in the background :,)
Same!! 🥺 20 min in I caved and googled Moomin Plushies OTL
And I think Gigi!
You just need to worry about that Groke Plushie behind you. 😨😱😂
Yes, it’s Gigi!
Glad I am not the only one who noticed Gigi! Also not sure what those cows are but cows are my top favorite animal, so I want to find out more!
I actually thought when reading GG all that “Nordic race” crap was him mocking upper class people’s deep seeded racism. No surprise tho that those were his real beliefs
Don’t you hate it when you think an author is doing something ironically and then you realize they’re actually just dumb 😂
me with half the shit on twitter
The thing about Nick is that he’s awful and the worst of the lot
@@Leotv19 lol how
@@projectc.j.j3310 because he’s selfish and entitled. He embodies all the flaws of those around him while judging them. He starts off the damn book saying not to judge anyone, and judges them all the whole time. He is a hypocrite and liar.
He’s a 30 something year old loser who clings onto his families money and their former prestige. He speaks down on almost everyone around him when he’s a failed stock broker, who got the job via nepotism, and is still on an allowance from his father. He has a woman back home and has an affair with Jordan, along with others. He constantly lies and contradicts himself. He covers up other peoples lies and meddles around with them. He glorified Gatsby when he’s really a villain in all this. He uploads and values the old order and the evil of the time that led to collapse and ruin.
The whole book he tries to invoke pathos and paint himself in a sympathetic light when he deserves none of it. He fakes his personality not only to the characters but to the readers. At least the others are brave enough to be themselves and show their true colors in the daylight.
F. Scott Fitzgerald just oozes out Lovecraft vibes. Like really. Both had troubled lives-mental and environmental, were racist, had broken marriages. Also Lovecraft lived from 1890-1936 and Fitzgerald lived from 1896-1940 which are pretty brief lives to say the least. They did manage to pump out some great works although their prejudices reduced their quality.
Lovecraft at least wrote good literature lol.
@@nicholas72611 He really did, if you think about it. His writing can be cumbersome to read, and much of the elements are antiquated, but people can't really deny the fact that he pioneered many concepts in modern horror - hell the analog horror developed recently on TH-cam is Lovecraftian. I don't think there are many authors from his era that can boast having much influence in the modern day as he has.
If we eliminated all the art produced by creators that had personal issues, or were troubled, I'd daresay the majority of some of the greatest works of art in all genres wouldn't exist. We know that people over the ages used art to come to grips with personal problems in fact even today we encourage people to use art for exactly that, and then if it turns out they end up being successful we later attack them for the things that often led them to art in the first place. It's a rather lose/lose situation.
I think it’s ok to engage with art made by bad people as long as it at least crosses your mind what might be under the surface. I’m not a death of the author advocate but I also don’t think that we should completely write off a work as having nothing meaningful to say just because the author was a bad person.
@@NelsonStJames Although no one of any consequence is saying that art produced by 'problematic' people should be eliminated. The conversation is far more about how should we address the fact that people who have done great things have also done some really shitty horrible things.
I love F. Scott Fitzgerald’s writing and he’s one of my main inspirations for prose in particular. That being said, I never get tired of people dragging him for the weird and bigoted person he was.
I agree. F. Scott Fitzgerald wrote the great American novel, "The Great Gatsby," and no one can ever take that away from him. Both he and Ernest Hemingway had Holy Terrors for mothers. There is a reason God gives each of us only one mother. We'd never survive two. When he wrote, "Tom and Daisy were careless people. They smashed up things and creatures, and then retreated back into their vast wealth, or carelessness, or whatever it was that kept them together, and let other people clean up the mess they made," Fitzgerald wrote the best description of the rich and powerful that has ever been written in the English language.
Listen, the man is one of my favourite authors and has been a big inspiration in general
but boy oh boy do I love to see a deep analysis dragging on bigoted behaviour! Especially in such a polite and intellectual way!
It makes no sense to drag someone for being bigoted. Statistically you have no idea how bigoted you would be if you were born back then.
@@skeletorlikespotatoes7846It does make sense because these people had many contemporaries who weren’t as bigoted. And luckily I’m not a bigot and actively try learn more about others to prevent unconscious bias so we’ll never know how I wouldn’t turned out but we do know how he did and it wasn’t good. So he gets the scorn he deserves
@@di7209 ah no they didn't 😂. The issue of course is how many of those people were simply copying their value systems from much more forward minded thinkers.
you have an intense "wise librarian in a fantasy book who gives the protagonist advice and valuable yet cryptic information" energy. also, you fence.
Average youtuber
OMG! 😂 Your comment just helped me figure out what was tickling my brain watching this video!!
My brain, for some reason:
It's definitely that bit from The Princess Bride, "Have fun storming the castle!"
(Why brain, why?? 😂 The answer to everything _cannot_ always be The Princess Bride!!)
Dang I wonder how their daughter turned out because I can't imagine growing up in such a toxic and erratic environment. :(
Zelda was sent to an insane asylum and the daughter was sent to be raised by others.
Thanks for the info@@pieceofsunshine1! Hopefully her upbringing was a bit better to whoever she was sent :DD
@@iabar2045 she said her childhood was wonderful and didn't realize the drinking problems
@@thisisvoided oh wow that's pretty surprising!
She wrote quite a bit about her parents, you can easily find her texts I think
This is not what I wanted when I said I wanted gay-lesbian chaotic solidarity.
lmao
😂😂
Walt Disney, Ernest Hemingway and F. Scott Fitzgerald during WWI were deemed not fit for battle, they were all ambulances drivers. This was emasculating to them as young men, yet all three found success. Hemingway spent his life proving them wrong.
Proving them wrong for what
Off topic but important: Kaz is the literal embodiement of what I imagined when I read the word ''handsome'' in Victorian novels. We can't help but stan.
sameeeee
Omg yesssss
Who's Kaz?
i literally only clicked on this video cause i saw the thumbnail and thought WHO is THIS 🥵
but now i'm actually invested in the video lol
Right????
Fitzgerald fits into the same category of historical figure as Lovecraft for me. They could be described with, “he was, objectively, kind of a terrible person. However, at the end of the day I can’t help but pity them more than anything else.”
Would you consider doing a similar video with Zelda as the front runner instead of the side character? If there's enough info on her it would be interesting to explore the same topic but from the opposite angle.
I just finished her book a few weeks ago. She’s so interesting.
Oh now this would be good
Let's not forget Hemmingway's overt PERFORMANCE of masculinity, presenting himself as having been FAR more adventurous and manly than the reality of his booze-soaked writerly life.
Terrific rundown of this history! Thank you.
We’re all performers on a stage
"I can make them better!"
Zelda and Scott: I can make him/her worse >:))
honestly Zelda and Scott could've been totally chaotic friends, I like to think that if they were born in the modern world they'd be an iconic bestie pair
@Scott's Precious Little Account ??? Uhh i think you replied to the wrong person...?
@Scott's Precious Little Account cool 👍
I LOVE YOU for using the term “care plan”. I work in a nursing home and help out in social services where mental health care plans are my job. It’s partly my job to ask residents questions in order to ascertain emotional and mental pain and trauma in order to develop a care plan that centers around Trauma Informed Care. Trauma Informed Care would have served both Fitzgeralds well. That and just therapy.
Loved this and love your stuff... Please do a thing dedicated to Zelda Fitzgerald. Still maintain that she waa more more intresting than her husband.. Would never deny that F Scott was a good writer but he was an observer, like Mencken. In terms of sheer creativity, Zelda was far more interesting but, given the period, no one was ever going to to focus on the woman at the expense of the man.
In France we we’re not taught about Fitzgerald in school, and I only discovered his work when I took an optional English litterature course in high school…which happened at the same time of the release of The Great Gatsby movie. I’be been very drawn to learning more about American litterature since, thank you for this brief moment of history ! In France, I feel like American litterature if thought very poorly of, which is a shame, as most of our contemporary writers were friends with American writers, I think it’s only natural to learn about both !
Wow that makes me so sad as an American the idea that American literature is thought poorly of particularly. My favorite American author as a child was Edgar Allen Poe who influenced Baudelaire I know, it would probably break my heart to know the French think Poe isn't good enough to read.
Have you ever read Little Women by Louisa May Alcott? It's my favorite of all time...if you've got the time. It's a long book but it gives off a feeling of being...home if that makes sense?
@@cheyenneautumn7658 the French are arrogant and look down on Anglo-American culture generally.
F. Scott Fitzgerald is American 🇺🇸 literature, not English 🇬🇧 Literature.
-Signed, An American 🇺🇸 “Anglophile.”
You should watch Midnight in Paris. Its one of my favorite films and its where a modern American goes back in time to 20s Paris.
Very fun
My White classmates, like my teachers, dismissed Fitzgerald's racism and attacked for raising the issue.
😦 how can someone dismiss it?! It was so blatant. There’s no way to read him without being aghast at his comments towards black people
@@nattr612 You can still value Lovecraft even if you despise his racist language and themes. If the work has many different ideas, it is possible to concentrate on some of them more than others. I know many Marxists, who still enjoyed "Call of Cthulhu" because they tried to mainly pay attention to the good parts.
That being said, a conversation about the treatment of race in these works is incredibly important. It is my belief that at least in schools this discussion on treatment of race should be had before reading these works to make sure, that no-one gets their views influenced by this outdated and demeaning outlook.
@@themage4232 I've gotten dragged by Lovecraft stans for pointing out his blatant racism and anti-Semitism and been accused of trying to 'cancel' him when all I said was that it's important to recognize how his work is linked to his bigoted beliefs. Like you stated, it's important to discuss the context and the authors' beliefs when linked to their work-as human beings, our bias will ALWAYS bleed into our work whether we intend it to or not.
There's a big difference between trying to censor work and acknowledge it's problematic aspects and have a healthy dialogue about it.
@@faiirest3198 The problem I have with the Lovecraft discourse is it doesn't go far enough. The man was racist especially for his time, but what I can't understand is how time and time again people don't understand how this is part of his general aesthetic and how it is much different than "racism" as most people see it.
He was obsessed with degeneration and decay, and managed to say awful things about almost every race that wasn't mythological in origin. Even in polaris, among some idealized "northern" peoples, he as the protagonist was a weakling cripple among them. In The Lurking Fear, the main antagonist is a French family who is given the Habsburg treatment until the devolve into something inhuman. In Late Arthur Jermyn, he explores the feeling of oneself being an outsider, although how this is elaborated in the story itself has racial overtones no doubt.
As far as the general obsession with Race - Lovecraft is one of the few 1920's authors who were pulpy in nature who are read commonly. Einstein, quantum mechanics, early electronics; just about every "cutting-edge" technology or field of study that was emerging at that time gets written in to his stories. Unfortunately, one "cutting edge" technology from that era was Eugenics, and many more people than is commonly talked about endorsed this study, including the founder of Planned Parenthood.
The real clincher for me is when in his later work, Mountains of Madness, he comes to recognize the alien progenitor race as "man" despite them being 100 percent alien to him. Why? Because he sees that they bury their dead and have inner consciousness. I mean, if only more people now could adopt that outlook. I think its funny how so many q-anon types are interested in extraterrestrials when they can't even create commonality between members of their own species.
Very shameful, abu to you for standing up on it tho
I recall a couple of anecdotes about Zelda from the Nancy Mitford biography of her. When the Fitzgeralds were on holliday in the South of France there was a cliff overlooking jagged rocks that succumbed to the crashing tides. Zelda liked to stand on the cliffs edge and dive into the water; narrowly missing the lethal rocks below. Fitzgerald accompanied her one evening and they both dove in. But Fitzgerald later admitted that he had been terrified; but Zelda was fearless. "Zelda is a strong person, while I'm a weak one." [Paraphrasing] A male friend of Zelda's recalled going to a cinema with her. A documentary about undersea life was showing. When an octopus glided by the camera Zelda cried out - "My God, what is it !?" - and buried her head in his shoulder. That stark contrast between a vibrantly alive and fearless person and the horrible mental fragility later in Zelda's life has always stayed with me.
Did not know the fitzgerald's were a troll couple
We do a little trolling
lmaoooooooo
A little tomfoolery if you will
I actually find it comforting that a lot of very talented people are also colossal fuckups. You can either kid yourself into believing that being a loser won't stop you from greatness or that it's just as well that you never made anything of yourself because famous people didn't live enviable lives anyway.
BTW you have the most fascinating fashion and decor of any TH-camr I've ever seen. Living the dream.
My great grandmother, now deceased, was one of the nurses who took care of Zelda Fitzgerald while she was in a mental institution.
Oh wow. That's really interesting.
Jesus Christ. "Toxic" doesn't even begin to describe Zelda's and Fitzgerald's relationship. 😳
I just found your channel and I've been binge watching your videos! I love them so much, keep doing what your doing!
Same!
sameee
I’m a relative of Fitzgerald, so thank you for a small glimpse into the genetic mental illness minefield i’ve walked my entire life without knowing it!
excuse me
WHAT?
are you his great grandchild
interesting
There is a ton of reading material dealing with the life of your so-called "relative", Scott. Visit your local library and educate yourself.
@@janepopplewell5647 jane, chill.
I've read all 5 novels and almost every short story of F. Scott Fitzgerald. It's an interesting world to dive into. Clearly, a lot of the women were based on Zelda in one form or another and the men, Scott himself.
It's a shame he didn't live longer and complete The Last Tycoon.
I've read 3 and it's actually insane how much Gloria reflects Zelda .... like those are the same people.😳
never thought i would relate to fitzgeralds relationship (i was never interested in his biography before). he sounds exactly like my ex, my greatest love and the worst person of my whole life, i literally noticed so many similarities in descriptions and situations. except that my ex was a very shitty writer who had no imagination and a rather bad way with words but still insisted he was great and that i just was jealous of him (i write myself). lmao every day you learn something more. if we were still together hed be proud at the comparison but thank god i fled while i could
Its never too late to find a greater greatest love. Best luck dude I can relate to that 🌞
I think you left a mediocre artist who cant listen to his own skill and talents and focus his attention on something hes good at, which imo makes for the worst art, from the worst people. I'm sorry. Genuinely. I am glad you fled when you could, but consider the fact you refer to it as FLEEING. I wont ask why, but I think you're much better off, considering that language. Love to you. Be safe.
Why was he a bad writer?
As someone who fixated on The Great Gatsby and Ftizgerald during my early teenage years, to the point I decided I wanted to change my middle name to Fitzgerald (when I decided to move away from my toxic hometown), this video is a chef's kiss.
In your defense I’ve always thought Fitzgerald was an epic name.
18:30 If it’s plagiarism for writers to take interesting phrases they overhear, every writer is a plagiarist. That’s one of the most common things writers do
i lost it at eating the candles lmao
"He loved to stereotype Mexican characters as lazy or violent, or Native Americans as barbaric."
Me, lazing around across my room, only deigning to lift a hand in a 'rock on' motion, "Ayooo, Native American Mention~"
mad that my first point of connection in my brain when they said ppl thinking fitzgerald and hemingway were a couple ended their friendship was….. larry stylinson
pls will i ever escape this prison
HSHDJJFJF
history repeats itself 😔
As an OG Larry shipper... oh god💀💀 I laughed way too hard at this
I thought abort Septipliar. 💀
I read F Scott in school, but after reading Save Me the Waltz later on by Zelda.... My school definitely chose the wrong Fitzgerald for required reading.
Zelda's writing is absolute fire.
He made some CHOICES.
The Great Gatsby is one of my favorite books.
Another fantastic video. I appreciate your hard work.
The F in F Scott Fitzgerald stands for 'Femboy'
💀💀💀
As a European it’s so funny to me to how important his book, The Great Gatsby is…. Because until the Leonardo DiCaprio movie I never knew it existed
its a VERY american book
Was required reading in mine and many other high schools in the early 2000's
Yeah, but that might just be bc I’m British and we have plenty of literature
We just read our own literature… And other European literature in class. That’s it. I mean I do prefer European literature to American anyways but that’s just me.
Don't feel bad about it - I'm sure there's lots of European books that most Americans don't read either. To each their own.
While I am not a huge Gatsby fan - “Let me ruin everybody’s life around me and then off myself because others might think poorly of me” was not my favorite storyline - I greatly appreciate your ability to separate the art you love from the problematic artist. Your deep dives are remarkable and I love watching your videos!
He got killed for murdering Wilson's wife, he didn't kill himself...
Putting himself into a situation where that was the natural response purposefully always made it seem like his own death was the end goal. That may have just been my interpretation, of course.
@@McSherrie"Putting himself into a situation" ?? I'm confused Gatsby wanted to run off with Daisy, but Tom accidentally hit Myrtle with Gatsby's car. Tom then blamed Gatsby for the murder and so Wilson killed Gatsby, this builds up a suitable climatic chaotic end theme that juxtaposed the order and control Gatsby wanted in the beginning. So I don't see how he planned to "off himself" or wanted to.
@@hydroking2969 Gatsby only ever cared about two things - well technically he only cared about himself, but that’s another conversation - living the high life and Daisy. When Daisy refused to run away with him, he said that the light went out of the warm world, or something like that, and ceased to care about the world around him. So, when Wilson came to kill him, his response was less than one might expect from someone who wanted to survive. Did he literally kill himself? No. Did he want to die? Yes.
@@McSherrie "Did he want to die? Yes". I still disagree with this, in the last conversation with Nick before he left on chap 8 was " We walked slowly down the steps. ‘I suppose Daisy’ll call too.’ He looked at me anxiously as if he hoped I’d corroborate this. ‘I suppose so.’ ‘Well-goodbye.’ " And though i agree with you that Gatsby sadly only cared about himself, that Daisy was just some rare gem he wanted, he still did not want to die and even made that sad comment showing how much desire he still has, even though she left him for Tom. The next is the swimming pool, just like how Gatsby tries to control time, forcing Daisy to say she never loved Tom as a way of him wanting her to erase her time being with him. He also had plans for the day to use the pool with Nick, that was his plan, not to wish to die. He belived he had control of the time for today, but God or destiny took his life abruptly. Also "The light went out of the warm world...and cease to care about the world around him" yes that happened when Daisy rejected him, but that was just him having a broken heart, you typically care little about the things around you when you have a broken heart, but i dont think anyone having a broken heart means they wanna die. Also he wasnt the only bad person , Tom already ruined the marriage cheating with Myrtle and was a hardcore racist. Daisy chose to have the affair instead of leaving when seeing an ex-lover, and Nick kept instigating it.
Do you know anyone who has done a similar video about Sigmund Freud/ will you think about making one?
They're always praising him, but I started to think he's not as great as everyone thinks - or maybe that is just my penisenvy talking.
We learned about him briefly in Child Development (I'm an early childhood education major) and the amount of pure rage I had when I read about his "psychosexual" theory was unreal, so I totally second a Bullying Sigmund Freud vid
Like 80 percent of the shit Freud said was absolutely butt fuck insane.
I had to read from and about him a lot because I study literature and film and his theories influenced both a lot. I oscillate between a weird sympathy for him and mild disgust. Many of his theories are a nice key to the narrative of certain movies because they were inspired of them but the thought of people taking his wild assumptions seriously is haunting. I am sure there would be enough material for such a video, especially because he changed a lot throughout his life and it’s tragedies (like his daughter dying and of course the rising antisemitism).
i took AP Psych this year and…some things he believed are extremely disturbing like the whole psychosexual thing and that all young boys have an oedipedus complex as small children…like ??
People are not praising him if they really researched him, he contributed to the science, but moderns ideas are different, it's thought he just projected his own life and feelings on others, especially sexual ones.
I find it really saddening that Zelda did her very best to work on her mental health but the resources she needed just weren't there for her. It takes a lot to constantly swallow your pride and admit you need help and she did all she could
as someone with adhd who loves all things history, i often find that these types of videos do not keep my attention. Your channel is wonderful i find it easy to to sit through your videos and i thank u for that! :D
same :’)
Their friends Gertrude Stein and Alice B. Tokales were a lesbian couple and Jewish. It was Gertrude's habit to only talk to the men at her parties, while Alice spoke to the women. It wasn't just Zelda. Hemingway's wife talked about it too.
In "A movable feast," Hemingway talked about going on a skiing weekend with Fitzgerald. He described Fitzgerald as s hypochondriac who spent most of the trip in bed. Both men were extremely alcoholic. Fitzgerald developed Alcohol-induced paranoia first, and then Hemingway later did the same.
Fitzgerald viewed the rich as inherently different from other people, while Hemingway viewed them as the same, except for having more money.
I wish we were friends IRL so we could infodump historical facts on eachother. I love your videos and your fashion sense makes my little dandy heart flutter. Thank you for your service.
It’s actually really nice knowing someone else is a little ashamed to like The Great Gatsby. I finished it in a day when I got it in school, it is just so good. You read something different with every read
Sooooo the Fitzgeralds were the Jake AND Logan Paul of the era?
This was fascinating! I used to kind of idealize F. Scott and Zelda’s relationship as two creatives in a whirlwind romance, but it seems like they really just couldn’t coexist in a healthy way. Thanks a lot for sharing this with us! God bless you :)
My high school didn’t have us read Gatsby, we did To Kill a Mockingbird
My wife and I are more than a little obsessed with Zelda and the works of those two… we’ve taken a trip to their past home and museum and it was really very neat and bizarre… have a cookbook of their favorite dishes paired alongside whatever insane party story goes along with the dish, such as the tomato soup F Scott dumped everyone’s watches and jewelry into during one of his tantrums
congrats on your first sponsor!!!! it was interesting to actually learn about Fitzgerald's life
This just makes me even more irritated by the depiction of F. Scott and Zelda in Woody Allen's film Midnight in Paris. I saw this film many years ago, (before I found out the awful truth about Woody Allen), and initially really liked it, but even back then I remember thinking, "Why is the main character trying to glorify and romanticize the Fitzgerald's marriage? Wasn't their relationship notoriously messed up?" The movie even represents Scott as the level-headed respectable one while Zelda is portrayed as jealous and unstable.
Because Woody Allen
I read the entirety of The Great Gatsby aloud to my public school English classes for twenty years. That is how much I love it and you better not misquote. I have a whole shelf in my library that is dedicated to Fitzgerald and Company. I would say that your assessment is fair and I enjoyed it very much. I'd like to point this out: Myer Wolfsheim's nose is wildly exaggerated in the scene at The Metropole. Was Gatsby black? His hair was "cropped." When they cross the bridge into NYC they note black people in a luxury car and Nick observes that even "Gatsby could happen." The gay element is all over the novel.
As someone who's been reading Gatsby - not annually, mind you 🙃 - for 30 years, I think that's kind of the point.
It's not that Gatsby is Black, or that Nick (and Jordan, let's not forget Jordan!) is gay; it's that they *could* be, and it wouldn't change the novel. It defies simple categorization yet allows for people to see themselves represented if that is the reading they bring to it.
It's a romance written in the era of modernism; yet has an argument as the first (a first, anyway) postmodern novel. I mean, surely Scott didn't see it that way, he wanted to be a) rich, and b) well regarded. At the same time, what he crafted here - perhaps in spite of himself - is a work that rewards many interpretations.
@@VinceWhitacre All of what you said in one hundred and eighty neat pages. Artistically, I think it is the first post modern bestseller.
There is an Artist making a Great Gatsby adaptation where Gatsby is black, I wish I could remember their name but I know it's on IA and Webtoons.
There’s another video essay I love by sin squad about the queer theory readings in gatsby and how nick’s status as a closeted gay/bi man informs his need to feel trustworthy. Also she talks about mr mckee which is great.
@@k80_ also a fun one:
th-cam.com/video/b9zuQebC7wA/w-d-xo.html
Fitzgerald: Mother.... you are so UGLY!
Fitzgerald's Mum: The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, son.
Fitzgerald: 😭
I've been looking forward to this since your Instagram post! The way you explain and disseminate information makes it both very approachable and entertaining. If you would ever speak publicly once the world is safer, I would gladly pay to attend a lecture.
On another point- from the friendships I've had with self identifying cis-het men there is a lot of unabashedly showing each other their nether regions. It was nearly weekly that I'd have to see as one would be very openly showing the group and they insisted I should be fine with it if I wanted to be treated like "one of the guys."
After hearing the descriptions of Scott and Zelda's antics as a couple: oh my god, I knew like 3 different couples like this in the theatre school at college
Just started the video, but I’d love to recommend F. Scott Fitzgerald’s short story “Babylon Revisited”. It’s a brilliant and short look into how Fitzgerald masterfully used his prose to tell his slow-motion-trainwreck of a story, and I’d love it if more people read it.
Thanks for recommending to us, I'll definitely check it out:)
It's my favorite thing he's ever done, and each time I read it again a part of my brain thinks, well, maybe *this* time ...
I feel like that one line did a pretty accurate protrayal; "Scott doesn't think".
yeah I definitely don’t feel bad for bullying this guy
Fitzgerald and Zelda sound like real life Joker and Harley Quinn
As someone who enjoys researching Fitzgerald, I love how this information was put together and presented. Thank you for the detailed and thoughtful video!
Love the video. As a literature professor, I laughed at “weird guy with a lot of issues” because it applies to *so many* dudes in the Western canon…very accurate…
Is your shirt collar embroidered? It's a beautiful design. I love the yellow of the embroidery next to the plaid your jacket!
These dives into historical figure's lives really make me wonder what videos about current day people will be like.
So brutal that you can spend your whole life getting owned and then in death you will continue to be clowned upon.
For those who are unaware (like I was) Raw Tallow is basically whipped cow fat.
EEEWWWW.
@@turner15 RIGHT?!!!
I've never read any Gatsby but I'd play Mortal Kombat with Fitzgerald
This was probably said a thousand times in the comments already, but in "A Moveable Feast" Hemingway often misrepresented what had actually happened to his own benefit to look even cooler, which infuriated a lof of his Paris-era friends and ended several friendships altogether. With Fitzgerald he always wanted to look like an older brother, a sort of literary mentor, and Fitzgerald often pushed him back because he never felt Hemingway to be superior to him in any way
I don't know about all of the other stuff between the two, but it is certain that the penis evaluation thing in "A Moveable Feast" shoud be taken with a grain of salt. Don't know if the story is entirely made up or just exaggerated, but since Hemingway lies throughout the book, that event doesn't seem reliable as well.
ernest hemmingway is obnoxious, so you know if he calls you obnoxious *_af_*
Also, my ex bf was so into Fitzgerald and Hemmingway. I always said, "Idk, Fitzgerald just seems like such a bratty, spoiled douche in his writing." Well, now I see that he was exactly that, and exactly why it's so fitting my ex liked him so much, ha!
I thought "pretending your ex's interests represents how he is psychologically terrible" was a Twitter thing.
All I'm gonna say is: Zelda deserved better!
technically they both deserved better. they both needed to improve upon themselves and had terrible issues
She was racist and abusive to, just because terrible things happened to her doesn’t mean she is exempt from criticism. Let’s say insted, they lived sad lives were sad people but had talent. Maybe if they had better help at that time things would have changed for the, however they are still in the nicest way said, pricks. Zelda didn’t deserve better, their child did.
@@FrostyM22 i probably don’t think she deserved to die in a fire, but i don’t know
Yeah, F Scott was no Link.
@@familyvoid nobody deserves to die (debatable for pedos and racist) but I’m saying it’s not like she was in a full out I’m a victim abusive relationship, she isn’t Scott free for blame she did shitty things too. I’m saying maybe let’s not sympathise with a racist okay! 😀🧍♀️
All i could think of Fitz and Zelda was "Gay best frienemies" 😭
I started watching your videos while preparing for an exam and now I really can't stop watching every single one of them again and again??? You basically do all the hard work of researching information through many sources, and are very good at explaining in a exhaustively way. Really glad I've found your channel!
Imagine if this guy and HP Lovecraft were friends. What an intolerable duo they would've been.
TS Eliot and Ezra Pound is the duo you're looking for.
They'd get kicked out of parties for refusing to stop talking like Hollywood minstrel show characters.
I also liked the Great Gatsby, my country doesn't require it for school so I read it because I was curious.
I thought your rapid-fire delivery would wear thin, but no, you were fabulously compelling from start to end.
Oh my goodness, it's so validating to hear that good writers thought that Scott couldn't write realistic characters. I like the Great Gatsby but it's more of a fable than an accurate portrayal of humans.
God, imagine having so many literal cries for help constantly and your SO ignores you so hard that he uses your words and actions in his books as his own. Poor Zelda :( it must have been horrible
Oh poor Zelda, who was exactly same as Fitzgerald but she's a woman so it's different
@@WhaleManMan thank you! i've frankly had enough of everyone blaming scott for the whole thing. i'm not saying he wasn't shitty, cus they both were mutually horrible to eachother, but he didn't steal whole books and whatnot from her like some people make it out to be. i'd argue that in his case, it was an instance of bad writerly inspiration that i myself have struggled with in the past -- reading something so good and captivating that you can't help but want to implement into your own stories. i thankfully refrained from following through with these urges, but keep in mind that f. scott was majorly struggling with alcoholism, his mental health, AND simultaneously trying to churn out story after story so they can get even half as much income as their expenses (their bad partying habits, zelda's treatments etc.) and while i know this can't and doesn't justify any of his plagiarism, i must say at least it lends insight into the fact that fitzgerald was a human as well, with his own struggles and problems that are usually skimmed over in favour of zelda, where suddenly he's the abusive oppressor. sorry this got so long haha, i'm very passionate about this topic and it is difficult to find like-minded people.
@@stcrletz THEY BOTH SUCKED THANK U, the main reason a lot of feminists see it as one sided and Zelda as a 100% victim though is due to the power differential F Scott had as a man (being able to send her to a mental asylum in the first place and being able to reap the rewards of writing as a man) but to say the toxic abuse wasn’t mutual is uncharitable. She was cheating on him (either physically or emotionally) far before he did during their tenure in Paris and put him down as much he did her.
They shoulda never been w each other but w/o each other we wouldn’t have Gatsby so eh
@@playboimarty absolutely truee, i fully agree and it's great to see other ppl w this opinion
You should watched the film Haxan (1922). It portrays itself as a horror, then reveals itself to be about mental illness and how poorly the mentally ill are treated. The ending will blow you away.
its interesting, with lovecraft no one can ever shut up about him having been racist while with many other authors it gets swept under the carpet like nothing else
great episode! I would love to see you do a deep dive on queer icon, and Moomin creator, Tove Jansson
Its on my list!
@@KazRowe Amazing, i can't wait to see it! thank you for all your effort and incredible work. Your channel is so special and great!
That childhood is a recipe for NPD. Extreme loss and neglect with extreme praise and being made to think you're special.
nah bc ppl have declared platonic friendships of mine "gay" in the past, as if they know anything about my friends and our boundaries, just bc we were really comfortable around each other and these people loved to make fun of the "closeted lad with internalised homophobia" (and they saw my friendships like that, in the sense that i was just in denial abt my feelings for them or something). im bi, but these friendships were platonic, and that's all they were. its annoying when people see two male friends being comfortable around each other, so it's automatically gay to them. idk if im biased bc of that, but ppl declaring hemingway and fitzgerald as gay and in a relationship w each other annoys me. i love looking for queer ppl and homosexual/homoerotic relationships in history, but this just rubbed me the wrong way for some reason
stop projecting, it's just musing and analysis. you're not either of them. you're some guy.
@@roeismi no need to get snappy mate. my opinion has changed within the year thay i posted that, but it doesn't take away the fact that ppl shipping me w my friends is flippin annoying. (these dead guys arent gonna know tho and finding queer history is important for lgbt ppl -that's how my opinion has changed)
that*
Hiii! Just wanted to tell you that you have big "main character" vibes.
Like, I would love to write a character inspired by you
So, yeah... You're super cool!
Zelda was a wonderful artist. You can see her work at the Fitzgerald house museum in Montgomery, AL.
I didn't learn any of what you've covered in school, and I'm fairly surprised to be honest (thought a lot of what I've read makes more sense now, and I can't help but think if all this took place nowadays, with the level of toxic these two would likely have their own reality show.... it also pains me that the beautiful fool remarks were genuine feelings regarding someone's own child, that is heartbreaking)
I enjoy your videos, you have a very pleasant tone, and I continue to learn about topics I admittedly likely wouldn't dig into myself (though had it been readily available back in the day, such as this video, that might be different).
Thank you!
“…women’s valid emotions being passed off as hysteria”
Not even 3mins in, nvr see this person nor their channel before, but I’m immediately hooked and impressed. Just subscribed- now to finish the vid!
Edit: their eyebrows are AMAZING
I just wanted to say that I really enjoy your videos, I feel like I always learn a lot from them and you have a great way of presenting that's very easy to follow!
listening to this after passing senior english because of a gatsby essay is a joy