Victorinox Fibrox 8-Inch Chef's Knife Review (Long Term Use)

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 พ.ย. 2024

ความคิดเห็น • 115

  • @DokiSarosi
    @DokiSarosi 4 ปีที่แล้ว +64

    I used a knife like this for 5 years as a professional chef. 6 days a week. I left if underwater, covered in dirt, skinned salmon with it, everything.
    This is my chosen primary knife for most things.

    • @leeforrest9661
      @leeforrest9661 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      I guess Im asking the wrong place but does anyone know of a way to log back into an instagram account??
      I was dumb lost my login password. I love any tips you can give me!

    • @leeforrest9661
      @leeforrest9661 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @Leandro Gerardo I really appreciate your reply. I found the site on google and im trying it out now.
      Looks like it's gonna take quite some time so I will reply here later with my results.

    • @leeforrest9661
      @leeforrest9661 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @Leandro Gerardo it worked and I finally got access to my account again. Im so happy:D
      Thanks so much, you saved my account :D

    • @leandrogerardo4554
      @leandrogerardo4554 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @Lee Forrest you are welcome xD

    • @lleah2839
      @lleah2839 3 ปีที่แล้ว +9

      @@leeforrest9661 these are bots btw lol

  • @fangchick93
    @fangchick93 4 ปีที่แล้ว +19

    I’ve had mine for 8 years, I got it in a knife set that was included in an introductory culinary course funded by my government. It’s still works great for me.

    • @fangchick93
      @fangchick93 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Rosher Perera Canada

  • @rcole6679
    @rcole6679 3 ปีที่แล้ว +20

    One thing I learned about the Fibrox knives, was that while they do not have a full tang, the handle is molded around the tang, which is forked. By having a forked tang, it’s not going to loosen or eventually slip out of the handle.

  • @julestabaranza1130
    @julestabaranza1130 4 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    I have used this for 5 years now. I have the 10 inch chef knife. My knife for culinary school and now in professional kitchens. Great beater or daily knife. Need to sharpen a few times a year. Can take a lot of abuse and easy to return to razor sharp using stones. Great quality and value for money. It's Swiss quality!

    • @pinoiboi13
      @pinoiboi13 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      What do you think about misen compared to this

    • @julestabaranza1130
      @julestabaranza1130 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      ​@@pinoiboi13 i havent tried misen knives yet, but it says it uses japanese AUS10 steel with HRC 58, compared to victorinox which uses german X50CrMoV15 steel with a HRC 56. Meaning the victorinox steel is softer, which means its more durable for heavy work and easier to resharpen compared to misen AUS10 steel, which could hold a sharpness longer since its harder, but may be more prone to chipping than german steel. as for grip, depends on your preference if you're gonna use it in heavy kitchen jobs, then fibrox is very comfy and light on your hands with no sharp edges on your grip.

  • @Bob_Adkins
    @Bob_Adkins 4 ปีที่แล้ว +8

    Had mine 5-6 years, got a set of 5 for $99 IIRC. I love all of them, added a curved boning/fillet knife to the set. Use the 8" chef almost every day, still looks almost brand new. Stays sharp, easy to sharpen shaving sharp 4-5 times a year. You can get a more expensive 8" chef, but not really a better one.

  • @icuabc1235
    @icuabc1235 3 ปีที่แล้ว +9

    What I've heard from a fellow owner, this is my Glock of knives, it might not look pretty, but It damn sure will be by your side and not let you down.

  • @kellyroberts5575
    @kellyroberts5575 5 ปีที่แล้ว +10

    I have had my chef knifes (this kind ) for about 6 years excellent knifes very good value for money

  •  4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    If you are on a budget (or even if you just like a good deal) I highly recommend this knife. I have a very expensive set of German Knives which are great. But for Vacations at a cabin I go to, I needed a few less expensive knives. I purchased Victorinox 8" Chef's Knife, a Bread Knife, and a paring knife, which together cost less than my expensive 8" Chef's knife. I like the Victorinox Knives every bit as much as the expensive Knives. Yes, they aren't as good looking but so what. They are a GREAT deal.

  • @MrsBee-uo2lc
    @MrsBee-uo2lc 4 ปีที่แล้ว +9

    thank you for this review, I just recently purchased this knife and you have settled my mind that I made a good choice for a long-lasting knife 👍😉

  • @swizacx715
    @swizacx715 3 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    My company have this knives as part of standard kitchen equipment. When I started to work I brought all my fancy knives, but after a while I was convinced that this outperforms all of them in a professional kitchen use. So I bought a whole set of them for the price of one fancy knive. Still, when i do show cooking I take out damascus wooden handle knive.

    • @silvermediastudio
      @silvermediastudio 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @森林 Imagine thinking Miyabi is high end XD

    • @silvermediastudio
      @silvermediastudio 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @森林 Just because some people are poor doesn't make it high end you can get them on amazon for pete's sake XD hahahah

  • @prashikjadhav3954
    @prashikjadhav3954 6 ปีที่แล้ว +28

    Just the review I needed, thanks

    • @Kinsiderations
      @Kinsiderations  6 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      Glad you found it helpful! I saw lots of videos on new knives, but not much regarding long-term use.

    • @prashikjadhav3954
      @prashikjadhav3954 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Kinsiderations and a long term review is what I needed

  • @kkperu6375
    @kkperu6375 2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    I like how you threw your wife under the bus and made a strong case for this knife! I've been looking for a cheap-ish knife with good quality and I think I've found it thanks to you and other youtubers

  • @goobs738
    @goobs738 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    I bought the 25cm chefs knife back in 07, it’s got heaps of scratches on it from repetitive use. I sharpen and maintain it regularly. I use it more than the 2 Global Knives I own. Would definitely recommend.

  • @kenmarapese9085
    @kenmarapese9085 6 ปีที่แล้ว +31

    How lucky for you that your wife likes a budget knife to abuse and not a Misono UX10 Santoku!

    • @Kinsiderations
      @Kinsiderations  6 ปีที่แล้ว +10

      She recently started to use the Wusthof Classic in addition to the Fibrox! It will only be a matter of time until she reaches for that Misono.

    • @Dr.Sciatica
      @Dr.Sciatica 5 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      @@Kinsiderations can you imagine the happines when you find yoshida hamono zdp189 in dishwasher. Priceless!!!

    • @johnruiz6743
      @johnruiz6743 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Good point! 😱

    • @johnruiz6743
      @johnruiz6743 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@Dr.Sciatica Domestic violence call...🤣

  • @TheLochs
    @TheLochs ปีที่แล้ว

    best "cheap knife" on the market. I have a few customs and use this a lot.

  • @Jamesnebula
    @Jamesnebula ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I know it's personal preference but it's so much nicer using a light knife. Instead of a full tank hardwood handle one.

  • @grahamhall2662
    @grahamhall2662 10 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Great review. What sharper do you use?

  • @cherylelinsmith743
    @cherylelinsmith743 หลายเดือนก่อน

    It's now 61 dollars at Sur Le Table 2024. How is it for cutting carrots, avocados, onions, orange skin. I have a beautiful Japanese I got from Koren in NYC where I bought it. It's a 6 inch chefs multi purpose knife, because it is delicate not recommended for cutting through an avocado or orange. My problem is, it's not cutting well through carrots. Which Is a surprise for me. Called Koren, and they said it should cut carrots so, I'm bringing it to the store latter this year to get it sharpened.

  • @bearllande
    @bearllande 4 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    april 18, 2020 it is $26.59 on amazon

  • @Tim145Tim145
    @Tim145Tim145 5 ปีที่แล้ว +20

    There is enough PROs online for this knife. Let me put some CONs for it. I have the same knife for about 4 years too. The Victorinox was designed for butch trade. They heat treated this knife at about HRC56, it is on the soft side of the knife. You have to learn how to using honing steel or whetstone to own this knife. Without honing, it would lose its sharpness very quickly. And if you hand sharp it on the whetstone, please stop at 1000 grid. Over 6000 grid, you would lose the sharpness in less than one hour use. But it could be sharped very easily on 1000 grid whetstone or a diamond shaping rod. Few passes on steel honing rod every other day will keep it sharp for months.

    • @GoblinWar
      @GoblinWar 5 ปีที่แล้ว +8

      To be fair you need to use a honing steel on pretty much any knife

    • @kctechie
      @kctechie 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      I bought this to replace a knife that was lost in a move and this one does not hold an edge anywhere near as well as my previous knife. Sadly I don't know what brand it was as it was a gift and always perfect for me and I never imagined needing to replace it.
      I bought the same one as in the video because of all the reviews and was very disappointed in the edge.

    • @abhishekshibu8592
      @abhishekshibu8592 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      How can you lose sharpness when grit is increased to 6000?

    • @User-cb4jm
      @User-cb4jm ปีที่แล้ว +2

      If you’re looking at it from a technical angle, then sure there are definitely better knives - but for regular people who just want a good kitchen knife, the praise is deserved when most of the other knives at its price range are utter crap.

    • @optimisticnihilist3417
      @optimisticnihilist3417 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      @Abhishek Shibu if the edge is too fine, then it will blunt more easily. You'll get a razor-sharp knife to start, but it won't last long at all.

  • @nikoskanavitsas9913
    @nikoskanavitsas9913 5 ปีที่แล้ว +13

    I just got into a culinary school. Would this knife be for me ?

    • @sadcat520
      @sadcat520 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Did you use this knife?

    • @nikoskanavitsas9913
      @nikoskanavitsas9913 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@sadcat520 no unfortunately not but according to reviews and youtube videos its probably the best value for money out there

    • @julestabaranza1130
      @julestabaranza1130 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      During my time almost everyone in my class had a full set of these. Including the case.

    • @Aditya-tw4mz
      @Aditya-tw4mz 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@nikoskanavitsas9913 Why do you say it...i am thinking of buying a chef's knife...

  • @ohiobob22
    @ohiobob22 5 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Excellent review! Exactly what i needed.

  • @laszlohorvath8637
    @laszlohorvath8637 6 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Awesome review. Thank you!🙏

  • @hepgeoff
    @hepgeoff 3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Great review! I’ve been trying to decide between this knife and the Misen. Question: what angle do you use when sharpening this knife on a whetstone?

    • @beezalbub7325
      @beezalbub7325 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      15°

    • @silvermediastudio
      @silvermediastudio 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Easy choice. This in 8 or 10" beats almost anything on the market under $200 for long term daily use.

    • @hepgeoff
      @hepgeoff 2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      Thanks. I ended up buying the Victorinox, and I’m glad I did. Great knife!

  • @TahaKaneko
    @TahaKaneko 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    how do you sharpen this knife? do you use a sharpening stone? or other device? and what angle to sharpen it? in case of a stone what grits to be used to keep the knife sharp all this years? Thanks

  • @udi112
    @udi112 ปีที่แล้ว

    Did you say sharpen few times a year? My inox (cheap set knife) needs to be sharpened every day

  • @johnruiz6743
    @johnruiz6743 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    I wonder with the NSF cert, how do they seal the area between the handle and the blade? Other knives which do not have a bolster or half bolster which have this type of design seem to accumulate 'debris' in that area? They must have a means to seal that area, otherwise you could not adequately clean that area without removing the handle? I only use knives with bolsters or integral/one piece ie Global which are easy to sterilize.

    • @fredbecker607
      @fredbecker607 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      I believe it is literally molded onto the blade. Makes the whole knife almost a single solid piece.

    • @HrWisch
      @HrWisch 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      Correct, knive handles of that type are usually injection molded. If done right, there's a nearly perfect fit between the blade and handle.

  • @Cracktower1
    @Cracktower1 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Hands down the best beater knife in the kitchen. Mercer being the second.

  • @as123ferrdi8
    @as123ferrdi8 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    the ak-47 of chef's knives

  • @darek7292
    @darek7292 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Which knife to choose Victorinox 5.2003.22 or the one from the movie 5.2063.20?

  • @qazmko22
    @qazmko22 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    These are some classic work horses.. I highly suggest.

    • @ThicFig
      @ThicFig ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Hi, do you suggest this knife for a First time Prep Cook job. Ill be using it for 5-6days/week 8+hrs.
      Thanks in advance!

    • @qazmko22
      @qazmko22 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@ThicFig 1000%.. it keeps its edge and has a good fat ergonomic handle

  • @ghassanghawanni
    @ghassanghawanni 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    It is very sharp...great knife

  • @HaiNguyen408
    @HaiNguyen408 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Just found your channel, really well made content. Thank you for posting.

    • @Kinsiderations
      @Kinsiderations  6 ปีที่แล้ว

      Thanks for visiting and subbing! Glad you enjoy the content.

  • @amoghavarshamurthy
    @amoghavarshamurthy 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Will ladies with smaller hands find this comfortable?

  • @AGC828
    @AGC828 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    I might pick up one. Everyone should have a "beater knife". Even one that has a "stamped steel blade". As most people don't understand blades with a "shapely profile" needs to have it's "secondary bevel" (area above the cutting edge/bevel (primary bevel) thinned. Which you don't need to worry about with a stamped steel blade since it's flat. Which also makes them great for people who don't want to learn to sharpen knives with a whetstone and use a pull-through manual or electric. It IS a beater knife. Many brands have them. Perfect for home use. People get caught up in the "show" aspects of knives (e.g. stippling, damascus, mirror polish, shape, thickness...handle design, full bolster or half...buy knives to show off at dinner parties...so they buy sets...etc.

    • @emeukal7683
      @emeukal7683 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      You are comparing apples to oranges. Stamped bladed is not a factor of quality.There is japanese highend knifes (i cant remember the name, they showed it to me in a knife shop with a very fancy horn handle, 450bucks+) that are stamped. In fact, most of them are and its not an issue. Quality/cost is added by human labor but for a chef knife that's not really neccesary, a lot goes into polish as you of course know and the handle, fit and finish. The victorinox and its dick, mercer, messermeister whatever brothers are tempered down and towards the tip. There is no need to refine a secondary bevel like on a yanagi because well there is none. The fibrox handle works better than any expensive one. Some got dunnschliff, most solingen knifes do and surprise those are forged but not highend or very pricey. Does it mean that a wusthof classic for 60bucks is a beater knife? It isnt. Does it mean that the wusthof performs better than the victorinox?it doesnt. It is basically the same but 20bucks for a prettier handle or 200for a horn handle and more polish overall which takes HOURS of work to do perfectly and does pretty much nothing for the user. Thats why kitchens use victorinox, mercer..whatever as a main knife. There is beater knifes, you notice them having no taper towards the tip and that secondary bevel to get em thin towards the bottom. Stamped or forged, it doesnt matter. Victorinox fibrox is not a beater knife.
      There is gyoto that do similar to the victorinox but on 60-62HRC insted of 55-56. Does it mean that they cut better? No, they won't. 70/30 edge isn't a real benefit. WIll they hold the edge longer? Of course. Why are kitchens using a 40$victorinox over a 110$ gyoto then? You can keep them victorinox sharp on a steel. That means effectively less time spent sharpening and more money saved for no downside. A santoku will cuz vegetables better than a chef knife, a little bit, that require slicing. A nakiri will do it even a bit better. Does it make a santoku a beater knife?
      There is show knifes, damascus comes in mind which is 60%cosmetic and well a bit because vg10 sucks in many ways but mostly fancy knifes are for fancy very specific tasks like cutting fish for sushi rolls. The Kramer Zwilling knife is a show knife, definitively not a beater knife but the one time i handled it in the shop it didnt cut better than the victorinox so..here you go. Beater knifes are a lot cheaper than victorinox too^^.

    • @AGC828
      @AGC828 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@emeukal7683 I never said that did I? 😁

  • @TheStromxxxx
    @TheStromxxxx 6 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    4 years in home Kitchenn or professional Kitchen?

    • @Kinsiderations
      @Kinsiderations  6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Home kitchen. In a professional kitchen all I used was an Asian cleaver.

    • @TheStromxxxx
      @TheStromxxxx 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Okey if it was used in a professional kitchen for 4 years the logo on the blade schould be nearly gone.

    • @Dr.Sciatica
      @Dr.Sciatica 5 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@Kinsiderations what brand of cleaver do you use ?

    • @Kinsiderations
      @Kinsiderations  5 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@Dr.Sciatica It's made by Thunder Group. It's over 10 years old so not sure if still being produced.

    • @agallagher5936
      @agallagher5936 5 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@Kinsiderations it is

  • @brijeshkhanna4966
    @brijeshkhanna4966 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    How to sharp this knife
    What is the angle of this knife edge?

    • @nathan_787
      @nathan_787 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      20 degrees each side

  • @Annie1962
    @Annie1962 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    just bought one

  • @lazyhusband
    @lazyhusband 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    The scuffing and scratch marks on the blade is not natural. I have a Henckels, older than your’s, and there are barely any marks. It’s a visual thing and not a performance thing but still...

    • @ahmedaizi1477
      @ahmedaizi1477 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Most likely from sharpening

  • @stevestevie7733
    @stevestevie7733 6 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    yeah might not be the best looking knife but really practical to use...., beautiful hands by the way

    • @stillwurdy1854
      @stillwurdy1854 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      I can’t tell you how many line cooks I’ve seen that have Japanese knives that are flat as a spatula. In professional kitchens unless your an executive chef or an executive sous chef you’re going to to get your knives banged up. Super easy to sharpen so the performance generally is superior to knives that need lots of upkeep in a real world setting. I got a lot of flack for saying I don’t like Japanese knives and think their overrated.

    • @GunnySGT1911
      @GunnySGT1911 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      I've heard people knock on this knife because of its appearance. It ain't pretty, but keep in mind that this knife is designed for use in a professional kitchen. It is not designed to be a signature knife used by an executive chef. It's a workhorse. It does its job very well and at a remarkable price point. I just ordered another one from Amazon, October 2019, and got it for $35.

  • @gregholland11
    @gregholland11 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Damn throwing shade at your wife hahaha. Thanks for the review though

  • @redangrybird7564
    @redangrybird7564 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Are you the same guy from the "robotchefvideo" channel ?

    • @Kinsiderations
      @Kinsiderations  5 ปีที่แล้ว

      I am, that was my first attempt at YouTubing =). Been super busy raising my toddler that I don't even have time to maintain this channel.

  • @jamies5503
    @jamies5503 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    How do you store it?

  • @AGC828
    @AGC828 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    You only sharpen this knife 2 or 3x a year?? With what?

    • @vladimirstolov9324
      @vladimirstolov9324 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      you hone every week...you really do only need to sharpen a few times per year unless its heavy use

  • @RandomDudeOne
    @RandomDudeOne 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Now it's $45 on Amazon.

    • @Kinsiderations
      @Kinsiderations  5 ปีที่แล้ว

      Wow. A bit expensive. I would wait for sales before making the plunge.

  • @AGC828
    @AGC828 5 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    This knife is one of the best buys for the $ for the average home user. A step above a no-name supermarket chain brand. Made by the Swiss Army folding knife company. And if knowing the knife was made in Switzerland matters...
    This video I think was worth making. As there are so many people considering this knife...wondered about the knife maintenance required. Or how little. You said you only sharpen it 3x a year and it still performs....more than good enough for any home cook.
    I think people get too caught up maybe in the marketing and some how got bit by the "kitchen knife culture bug". Which interestingly are made up of mostly home "chefs". People buying mid-priced to "expensive" Japanese kitchen knives for whatever the real reason is. Buy their share of whetstones. :)
    I think if we go beyond a point...e.g. spend over $200 on a single knife..it's about status. to show off at dinner parties. I mean the difference in blade quality (material, bevel shape, how well it's sharpened, how regularly? etc.) I don't think makes t hat much difference for a home user. Between a $50 USD chef's knife and a $300.00. VS a professional chef working for a 5-star restaurant.

    • @pedrova8058
      @pedrova8058 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      12C27 steel will never have the same edge retention of VG10, Aogami superblue or more "exclusive" steels. That mean you will need resharp the knife more often, or you can´t make blades very thin. In opposition, resharpening "hard" steels are more difficult.
      It cost 10 times more? maybe not, but harder/finer steels cost more than a regular/industrial/common steel (like 12c27 of Victorinox or X50CrMoV15 off famous european knives (wusthof, zwilling, gude, etc)
      And yes, there are many "names" so overrated

  • @Ryan_Carder
    @Ryan_Carder 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    What camera do you use?

  • @pinoiboi13
    @pinoiboi13 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Wut u think about misen. Are they any good??

  • @aronllanto564
    @aronllanto564 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    is this the best chef knife i could get? it is $45 right now. My budget is $50 and trying to buy a chef knife for Christmas? or is there any better ones on amazon under $50??

    • @ohneil9416
      @ohneil9416 5 ปีที่แล้ว

      Aron Llanto have a look at the mercer renaissance, also very good alternative

    • @aronllanto564
      @aronllanto564 5 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@ohneil9416 that's $90cad on Amazon

    • @ohneil9416
      @ohneil9416 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Wow, sorry my bad, was only £40 here in the UK so assumed it would equate to around $50

  • @msheehandub
    @msheehandub ปีที่แล้ว

    The knife is now $70.

  • @scottholmes8374
    @scottholmes8374 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Lol I don't think it's ugly I think they are cool

  • @brightshadowdenmark
    @brightshadowdenmark ปีที่แล้ว

    Dont buy the "Rose Wood" version! the handel is to thin, so the Fibrox is the one you want!

  • @marcmarini6365
    @marcmarini6365 4 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Ugly ? Victorinox knives get the job done.

  • @pixelpadre
    @pixelpadre 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Not impressed. OUt of the box it sliced a tomato like butter, but a week later, no luck slicing a tomato. Had to pierce the tomato first wit the tip. I think a ceramic knife would be much more useful. These rage reviews are all B.S. as far as I am concerned. People saying they used it everyday for 8 years. Now thats just pure BS, unless they were cutting butter.

    • @johnluna7934
      @johnluna7934 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      What did you cut during that week? If you cut on a glass or hard plastic cutting board, that sounds about right. Otherwise, for normal home use this knife doesn't dull anywhere near that fast. For about 5 years this has been my main knife for home cooking and my experience is consistent with the review in every respect. Hone it occasionally for 20 seconds before storing, sharpen maybe twice a year, and it will slice newspaper into thin strips any time you want to come by the house.

  • @Sproutt
    @Sproutt 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    lolz thats the only knife shes allowed to use!!!! ;)