Hard disagree. I think the devs care a great deal. I also think they get their marching orders and aren’t listened to when they say “hey maybe this isn’t the way, boss.” Hence where Blizz is today, because it’s already very clear the exec level and up don’t give a shit unless there’s $$$ attached.
@@ryanmckannan2134 I think the Art team care a great deal. Other than that Blizzard is a hollow shell. I just hope those boots on the ground workers get the hell out of this sinking ship and get a job where they can provide for their families without being harassed and underpaid.
@@redhammer92 You’ve got a point, regardless of which of us is right. I know Terran Gregory definitely gives a damn, because we all get his best work. The art team has always been amazing. Definitely donating to the ABK strike fund in the meantime.
I think something like this could be true, but I personally feel like it de-personalizes a lot of the game. For instance, I no longer want Elune to be explained by them, because I just want her to be the moon goddess, if that makes sense. I really don't like the whole mechanical slant to everything; I don't mind having things like magical engineering, tinkering and such but I want the high concepts to be mystical. I also think this lore is a product of today's obsessive need to explain the rules of magic and belief systems in detail, which can be fun on a world-building level but I think often a futile concept for telling good stories. An aside that is very subjective of course, but it has been a thing for a while in scifi and fantasy of late to really go in deep on the details, rather than focusing on explaining what the story needs. I think a result of this you can see in how almost all dialogue has to be exposition setup in the very limited space they already have for writing characters. Maybe they can prove us wrong and have the next outing lean onto this in a satisfying story way, but for me I have doubts, so I keep the expectation modest until I find out. :)
Spot on. The lore has taken a shonen anime-like turn since a while ago, where the mechanics of the fictional universe are more important than developing interesting characters that we can relate to. I have friends who eat that stuff up and will argue about nonsensical things like the positioning of one sith's foot in a lightsaber duel against a jedi that led to him winning. Like, why does that even matter? But I guess the mechanical details allows for meganerds to deeply immerse themselves in the escapism of the IP.
Actually... people are just sticking with the established lore or rule, they just want atleast a rational way to understand the said system/belief. Most writers seem to overlook the feedback of their readers when they just want cohesive storytelling rather than a massive setting. The plot doesn't have to dabble too much in explaining everything, but establishing it with just the right amount. People just want consistency and it should be maintained the very least. Going further needs a careful introduction and transitioning without certain pieces left untouched.
Anyone else disappointed how shitty the afterlife is portrayed in WoW? I mean shit, the best people's fate is to have their personality erased... It goes downhill from there.
@@BaneRain You don't know what awaits us... And if there really is nothing, we won't be aware of it which is probably better than the eternal shit show that the characters are damned to.
We all know what happens when we die, and there is no other side. Harry Potter is just fiction, so is Lotr and the bible etc. @BaneRain is right, all that awaits is eternal darkness. There's no such thing as a soul or magic etc, those are just made up words.
You gotta wonder what they could possibly do after this in the game. It's like power creep but with storytelling. Are future expansions gonna just feature an ever increasing series of more powerful secret gods?
I wish they’d just go back and pick up threads on Azeroth. What’s going on with the Defias and Scarlet crusade? What are the night elves going to do now that pretty much everything they have has been destroyed? How will the forsaken exist, and where will they “live” now? What about even older stories, like Duskwood? What’s going on in Searing Gorge now that the dark iron are part of the three hammers? So so so much they could do with what they’ve abandoned.
Pretty sure the immortality came from Nozdormu. Unless that's been retconned as well... A gift from each of the aspects when Nordrassil was planted into the new Well of Eternity. IIRC
I'd have to answer that two different ways..... In the original Metzen lore that created the game: Elune did not grant elves immortality, she gave them a limited protection from death caused by aging but only if they spent their time keeping the World Tree alive and safe. And since those World Trees were a way for Life to seal away and heal the wound in the planet Azeroth...it was not a rebellion at all....it was more like compensation for doing a job while Elune was busy elsewhere. In the ridiculous Steve Danuser violations: the meaningless 3d printed robot elune machine has no understanding and no intelligence and no critical thinking skills and it let the world tree be destroyed then sent the ghosts of night elves straight to the maw.
@@AecoYT When Nordrassil on Mount Hyjal was sacrificed to stop Archimonde, its draconic blessings were lost. The Night Elves then spent the better part of the next decade trying to get the dragons to bless their newly planted replacement tree Teldrassil, but only Ysera and Alexstrasza granted their blessings, with Nozdormu still refusing to grant the night elves with his blessing of immortality. After Teldrassil got burned down, there are now (probably) no dragon blessings affecting the night elves. The Well of Eternity, while powerful, was capped by Nordrassil when Malfurion declared arcane magic to be evil. Blizzard has never actually used the Well of Eternity other than as a setting for Nordrassil, and all indicators point to the Well still being capped, so it’s doubtful that it’s affecting anybody. tl;dr the blessings were bestowed upon the trees, which have since either had their blessings sacrificed or incinerated completely. The second Well of Eternity is just a pond that Blizzard never found a use for.
@@drewthelegend Right. So are the elves no longer immortal? I remember that being the case in vanilla WoW (questline in Ashenvale about a daughter's sickness, etc.). But I also remember something about them regaining their immortality somehow since then. Their immortality never had anything to do with Elune, though. Even remotely. That was what I was referring to in my original post.
I think WoW devs have taken it way too far in terms scale for the game. Like having this galactic space stuff with a game that started as a simple fantasy game stuff seems a bit too far. You want to know why I think why it's a bad thing? Because to justify it, the devs will need to continuously scale bigger with each expansion. So how far will they go with the galactic stuff, just trying to one-up each expansion?
the idea of it could work in theory, but I doubt the skills of the current wow writing team is up to snuff to actually pull it off. they are rushing through a 7 course meal so they can eat the dessert which is a warm pop tart.
I mean, they have done scaling back (kinda) of threats with MoP, where the main focus was the conflict of colonization of Pandaria between the Horde and the Alliance until Old God stuff happened. So they can do it, but it seems they don't want to. They have many ideas that are cool, but they exploration and exception are ankle deep.
Kinda reminds me of the problem Stargate SG1 faced after the defeat of the Goa’uld. Replicators then eventually the Ori. Things got a bit nuts towards the end. All I know is that if I was developing story for the world of an MMO I’d focus on the ordinary lands, races and wars.
@@mikoto7693 "I'd focus on the ordinary lands, races, and wars." Same, tbh. Hell you can rip off so much of real world history and dress it all up in fantasy aesthetic and theme. You could take a lot of the history of the Byzantines and cram it into warcraft and it'd fit right on in providing context and reason for all kinds of conflict and curious characters and shit. But you do don't see that sort of thing a lot. Instead we get failed super hero comic writers doing whatever the fuck they're doing at blizzard now.
Love your videos bellular Glad you’re still doing it I miss the game occasionally but I’m glad I’ve been focusing on other hobbies the last few years. It just became an obsession and not a very fun obsession at that. Still check in every now and then to see what’s going on in the law that was always my favorite part of the game and immersing myself in the world and making friends and I just feel like that aspect of the game is gone
This is how I enjoy WoW: by watching Bellular and Taliesin & Evitel. I hate the current WoW gameplay, I hate the direction of the game, I hate the toxic nature of what little community is left, I hate the fanboi middle school fanfic level of the story. But I'll always enjoy the lore and what the community has to say about it. Watching these videos makes a great break from doing the MSQ in Endwalker when I need to take time to eat lunch or dinner, definitely.
Remember when the biggest threat was stopping the lich king, because he wanted to create an army of undeath? Remember when the individual races had their own beliefs, tauren with the earthmother, trolls with the Loa, humans with light, dwarfs with the titans. The problem with expanding a story out this broadly, it takes the things that made Warcraft rich and makes it feel insignificant
@@MrOrcshaman thats like IRL.. if suddenly we would meet our "creator" all cultures, religions, beliefs, knowledge that went from generation to generation would crumble. Same with wow, we now know the "person" behind alot of things that were (aand should have stayed) mysterious.. now that we fight gods and titans and all the cosmic armies, its hard to go back fighting a lets say "scarlet crusade army" which would be 100x times more fun in my opinion.
@@Gril018 it's the old but true message of less is more. By revealing more, you take away mystery and intrigue. It's why I can never play classic wow, since all the unknown curiosity and ethos has been laid bare, and a lot of wows magic is now gone because of it
I always thought the Shadowlands were a dark reflection of Azeroth that you go to when you die. Like a counterpart to the Emerald Dream. That’s clearly how they portrayed it in WoW and Chronicle up until now, it is it not?
It's incredible how while I watch this kind of videos I think "It would be so cool if it was real, if warcraft writers could actually do anything remotely simmilar to a coherent story. No, there is just no way they even thought about that."
this is what comes into existence when a 12 year old discovers the Silmarillion and decides to write one themselves, thats exactly what this feels like
Warcraft Lore progression in a nutshell: There is always a bigger fish... Remeber the days, when some mad dragons and an evil necromancer where the biggest threat we have to face?
so you'd rather have us fight mad dragons/evil necromancers for years to come? you speak as if Blizzard's the only one who dabbled with this trope. fcking seriously?
I think its a bit curious i haven't really seen anyone point out the similarity to the word Zerith and Azeroth. Wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of connection there. Maybe Azeroth's original name was A'Zerith, or "The Keystone"
i know right... the universe need a bit of mystery... i think the direction to show the gods and all that is the wrong direction. especially since we the players defeat everyone. what does that make us?
@@Mr19awsome92 Its the world of 10 million Kratos atm :D Jokes aside, I enjoyed the game and its world a lot more while it was within AZEROTH!!! not some space sh*t and whatnot..
There really isn't much "shadow" in the Shadowlands and the whole thing went downhill from there. I had a feeling that this was going to be my last expansion for this game and this does nothing to change that.
I like this idea, but i doubt the devs have thought this far. From my pov, it seems like they just thought the Jailer was cool. And retconned, and squeezed, forced and pushed all our favorite lore characters into it, making the awful soup we have now. I was so looking forward to an Elune based expansion, but not where we meet her, hear her say she was wrong, etc, Where she stood by not helping her favored children when they burned to death. they messed with WC3, my favorite game, and butchered it even more than reforged.
totally agree with you my friend, hell after what they did with Nzoth now I don't want them to use other story lines like Elune because I'm pretty sure they will just mess everything up
@@user-fv7jd4xj5n Which is sad. I understand real-world stuff happened, but that was the one storyline I was really looking forward to the exploration on for the expansion.
I really don't understand how anyone can get invested in the lore when it's just going to be retconned as soon as the writers think of a "cool" new idea and then realize it doesn't fit.
The lore is so dumb. I miss small potatoes. The big fish are too big and convoluted now. It's so far removed from the world we were all attached to and enjoyed adventuring in. Really would not have hurt to expand the continents and new lands to explore. Discover the remnants of the spider lands in Northrend or go explore the idea of different human cultures like the kultiran. These cosmic forces are just so far removed from the world it feels like we are straying further and further away from the game we care about.
Think back to killing gnolls and hogs in Redridge. Far more rewarding storyline. Legion really wrapped up the storyline of the entire WoW lore, everything after really feels like extremely bolted-on retcons featuring characters nobody's ever heard of and nobody cares about. And the way they're demystifying some stuff (e.g. Elune) is just making it ... bland. The new storylines are bad, and they're being told badly. The systems are bad and they're executed badly. Game's in a very rough spot.
I think the problem with wow that the harmony of the story, the art and coziness of Warcraft world is no longer there. All the ingredients for a good game are separate from each other. The game is getting bigger as a balloon, but there is not much content anymore. When you put your soul in creating the game it changes everything. I don’t feel that people who make wow are interested in the game itself. And it’s sad.
I think there's probably a lot of people that want to care about the game, they wouldn't stick around in such a bad work environment (the lower lvl employees, I mean) if they didn't. But there's only so much you can do if the people running the show are incompetent, and I find that really sad.
I dunno what went through their heads when they decided to make WoW a science fiction game instead of high fantasy, for literally no reason. But they have been piggyback riding off the world & lore crated in the RTS series. So I have a feeling that they ran out of ideas, and high fantasy content is harder and takes longer to make.
How do you just deflate from that ? Apparently they plan to lower the scale of things going forward, but it's not like you can just pretend it's not there anymore and just go on with whatever earthly plot comes next (they definitely will do that though). When you look at dragons and elemental lords, they're basically just worms at this point in the Warcraft universe, even though they used to be god like beings not so long ago. Just how fast do they have to burn through everything there is to explore, it's unbelievable.
Yeah, they're not leaving themselves anywhere to go. Usually, you'd take the route of, "oh, this entity isn't at full power" or you had to take advantage of a special set of circumstances/assistance/items/whatever. Gives you a way to take things down a notch. But now we just march around, kicking the shit out of the strongest beings in existence with a handful of regular people with sharp weapons. Remember when even The Lich King was too much for us to handle head-on and just straight up deleted your raid when he was done fucking around?
@@Xero_Kaiser it's especially ridiculous when you remember that the new and updated bears and coyotes that will probably populate the next expansion will kick your ass. But I guess that's just game sense, it's not meant to be looked that way, in a narrative perspective. They just have no idea what the player character even is in this setting, wielding more power than kings and gods but having none in the societies of the world themselves, you just get your orders from anyone willing to give you some and execute.
They want to write the Silmarilion. But with out character interactions, events or story going on. Just put a bunch of rules and say "and this is how it works" but not having the Turin Turambar or Morgoth doing stuff
I think people think they want to write the Silmarilion, but what they actually want to write are comic books. The WoW story is a lot easier to enjoy when you approach it as a comic book type story as opposed to high fantasy.
@@username12120 just like how the journalists who couldn't make the cut went into games journalism. Despite being a multi billion dollar industry, gaming is still treated as second rate.
So if the Winter Queen has a counterpart in Elune in the realm of Life, do they all have counterparts in the Life realm as well? Is it a means of keeping balance and order? Does Zovaal have a counterpart in the realm of Life? And what or who is the Blue Child of Elune and how does it figure into everything? What is it's purpose?
When we fought argus diamond boy literally said when we reached the pantheons place "the cradle of creation" so now we got this new place.... how does it all fit in?
@Zarozapa CnJ The difference is that people care about those enemies. They are tied to the very world the players walk around in. Also all those bosses are literally ants compared to whats going on now.
The final boss of Warcraft will be/is Bobby Kotick. He tricked all these "gods" into fighting all these wars amongst one another while he takes ALL of their mone- uh.. souls. Yes. He is hoarding ALL the souls. The Maw is actually just his enormous wallet.
every new bit of *lore* we seem to get for WoW is a "well actualy they just didnt tell you the truth" or a "well tehy told you what they though they knew" and retconing previous stuff to fit the "new" stroy they are trying to write, it just come off as very lazy and sloppy making people confused just so they can do *big* reveals and act like they are smart and we the readers/players are stupid its just pathetic and insulting. All wow has now is good art and visuals with poor story lack of content and bad game design its dissapointing and pathetic to see how far they have fallen and how far they are determend to dig deeper into the crap hole.
Conclusion: Warcraft lore is being expanded so much its getting ripped to shreds. I absolutely hate when writers can't come up with original content within an established lore that they have to expand it for new material so it goes to shits. I mean Ok, let's say we go through all these "plains of existence" through numerous expansions... then what? Create a new bubble to explain them? Keep this up until what? We realize it's all a simulated reality and the characters come out of the game into our world and raid blizzard HQ?
You kind of implied that Elune sucked in her role as a protector of life, whilst showing a glimpse of Teldrassil's destruction, but in the Elune/Winter queen 9.1 cinematic, Elune says that she 'sent forth a cascade of souls' to sustain Ardenweald - which makes it quite a deliberate act, she also questions whether Tirande will select vengeance, or renewal, which implies there's a possibility the Night Elves, Teldrassil, etc. have chance of being brought back from the Maw's eternal condemnation, perhaps with a new home in Ardenweald?
You left out the part where she sent the souls “in the wake of tragedy”. She didn’t cause or allow the burning of teldrassil, but as the protector of night elf souls she reacted to the event by directing the souls to the shadowlands instead of turning them into wisps
Problem is, they can't top the Lich King storyline, mainly because there isn't a WC4 to set it up. It was an interesting direction but they butchered it. I still can't forgive them with how dirty they've done Devos. We had an epic cinematic and then killed her in Spires early on before doing the whole campaign. So disappointing
The current development team/writing team will not ever do that. They aren't capable of it. The only way to fix WOW at this point is a Realm Reborn style reboot. Activision does not have the balls to do something like that.
I used to think final fantasy was odd with all its techno weird stuff . Current wow makes FF look like a grounded old school rpg fantasy world ….. crazzeee
I think if it's true Elune created the naaru, supposed beings from the light plane... I think that was the act of her betrayal, not saying she did something evil, but she ended up doing too much to protect people from the rogue titan and his burning legion by creating this army of light even though she isn't even from the plane of light. She did something that was not of her role basically. We also know the Naaru was to directly oppose the burning legion and not the void so much since it was the titans that were directly fighting the void. She also gave people too much power to try and defend their civilizations from the burning legion... all of these actions shows she did too much direct stuff. All in all, I think her betrayal was caring too much and thus overreaching from her assigned role. Also I do think the titans definitely have some relationship with Elune, since it would seem weird if not. I wonder if possibly elune stole or borrowed power from the titans of orders; if borrowed then maybe when the titans of order were loosing against their brother, they entrusted some of their power to Elune to help defend their world creations from the rogue titan and his burning legion as a desperate last effort. If that was the case though then it would explain why she is an upstart goddess but it wouldn't mean the actions she made were an act of betrayal, or maybe she didn't even betray at all. Though if she stole then that would be act of betrayal even though it was for good. Let me know what you guys think.
Personally I don't mind the cosmic stuff. I just wish we had a lesser role in it all and the primary lore characters would shine again. You take Cataclysm, for instance. So many lore characters had to be helped along the way. We played the helper, the defender, the back up to these behemoths of lore who actually stood up against the evils. Same for Wrath. It wasn't the heroes that ultimately killed Arthas. Even in Legion we had the help of the other titans. Now it seems like we are far too much involved and put at the front and center. If they're going to go down the whole cosmic storyline I beg them to change the narrative so the focus is more on the Warcraft characters. Develop them. Flesh them out. Make us care about helping them and fighting for them again.
I have brought this up for some time. Souls in the beginning of WoW, especially WC3, went to the twisting nether. It wasn't hell necessarily but it wasn't heaven either. Shamans were able to interact with it until WoW was released. It was how they became corrupted and became warlocks in lore. The shadowlands, being an engine, felt like the emerald dream. A construct, and being an engine made use of anima, which goes to your theory that Order won. I have wondered if time somehow was altered and allowed this to happen. With that said, we see void in bastion, light in Revendreth, death in Ardenweald, Chaos in Maldraxxas, but we see no Order attacking anything. Maybe the war like areas happened before and false memories were placed into the habitants to explain it. What if, there is something in order stronger than the Titans, as the titans = old gods and something greater of order = void lords and we missed something through all of this.
The word "Zereth" is so similar to "Azeroth" - I can't imagine this isn't intentional. So either Azeroth is a Zereth which name was changed through time or it is another "keystone" that connects them all. Let's see where this is going :-)
It seems to be that the Great Beyond is the original universe with Azeroth in the centre and every realm belonging to the cosmological forces came after. As we see that Zerath Mortis draws his power from azerite its kinda safe to assume that the other Zerath's are doing the same thing
I wonder if Bellular's motivation for putting out these videos is in the hopes that Blizzard watches them and uses his breakdowns to make their storytelling more coherent.
I've been following these developing plot lines for years and I think it's time to just accept it, This Titan/cosmic creation stuff doesn't interest me at all. Barely even feels like Warcraft anymore.
So I listened and watch this. Honestly this is one of the most boring settings I have ever seen in game lores. There really is nothing to get invested into and we as a players would have been far better off not knowing all this and just experiencing the "power conflict" back on Azeroth. I can imagine Steve Danuser somewhere jacking of to his high intellect but most of us really don't appreciate this.
Lore staff r doin a terrible job , this cosmic aspect they'r goin after is makin ppl less intressted in the story , wht hpnd to the great story which was the Lich King and Illidan the big badies which ppl were so much into nd actually liked now we r killin titans nd universe creators ? its so confusin nd almost impossible to understand nd keep up with with tones of twists nd retkons , ppl were fine bein a simple orc or human which was part of a huge universe wow story gave its last breaths at the end of Legion , at least Sargeras was a vilain we chased for many years
The pantheons are weird. They are dope but for beings created by a single force there is certainly a lot of them using another one. Eonar embodies life despite being arcane creation, Elune seems to be somewhere in between life and light, Argus was titan of death, Winter Queen is connected to nature, Kyrestia and all of Kyrian have arcane based spells, Denathrius is a vampire like the void.
So, I have a genuine question and I hope you can even make a video on this: what are the basics in WoW? Like if WoW "went back to the basics," what would that be? I want to compare Pokemon here, because I hope Blizzard can do what Nintendo and Game Freak did. Pokemon started out simple, going through forests and such just enjoying the natural and familiar yet magical world around you. Power creep had it going into enigmatic lore of legendary creatures able to manipulate space and time and reality itself. And Pokemon lost a lot of following because it ceased to be familiar, relatable and fun. It got too big for it's britches as they say. But they found a way to dial it back, and get back to the basics, focusing on what made the game fun. Sun and Moon was simple island culture. And Sword and Shield was just a simple region of cities and wild areas. No cosmic existential threats at all. They had all the basics though: Pokemon to collect, new places to explore, and the simple goal of challenging the local pokemon league. And a simple and balanced story arch involving a villain and a mysterious legendary Pokemon. Most importantly, they focused on the things that made the game fun. There seems to be an unwritten rule that every subsequent thing that happens in fantasy storylines must be of a much greater magnitude than the last, but that simply isn't true. Pokemon proved that. I would say Marvel is doing a decent job with the superheroes post-Thanos. I think Blizzard can do it too.
Gotta give it to Bel for dedication, 3+ yrs and he's still talking about the "Life lands" Even though we have the material plane and the emerald dream that are both lands full of life. And how Malfurion even tells us in Legion that the emerald dream was the prototype for everything on azeroth. That's commitment to an idea!
I think other planar powers might perceive Elune as having abandoned her original charge to instead go play god for a myriad civilizations across the material plane. Crossing the veil and using one’s powers to go play god, even with benevolent intentions, might be a big taboo.
I think one interesting detail on the whole Elune as a rebel is to recall that the Night Elves used to be immortals, keeping them outside the cycle of life and death. That only changed after the events of Warcraft III
Just throwing this out there but if Sargaras just decided to smash the moon instead of stabbing azeroth with his sword. Would that affect Alune? Or is the moon just a symbol and not a source of power? Im just confused as to how Alune and the Winterqueen are opposites.
There's further evidence to support a cosmic war event. The Light (Lumos) invaded the SL's at Revendreth. There's a huge section of scorched terrain there. The question remains is why make Revendreth a target over the other realms? Then there's the Voids invasion in Bastion at Agithas repose. Same question as with Revendreth. Why invade Bastion as opposed to other realms? What events led up to these conflicts?
You’re such an amazing person, I see all these other people complaining and making wow look bad. You’re actually looking for good things about the game. You’re a true fan of wow just like me! I love you . This video made me so relaxed . ❤️
@bellular I love your lore videos bro, I surely do, I get excited every time I see your theories, but then it is all "crash and burn" when blizzard finally shows the true way the story goes, I mean there is more passion from lore youtube creators than from blizzard, sometimes I feel they wait for youtube creators to hype their story and just sit on their asses and ride the train you guys push
This lore is so less interesting than anything revolving the "geopolitics" of Warcraft. If this cosmic stuff is the future of the story i'm glad i just started the critically acclaimed mmo final fantasy xiv online.
A thought, if as we have been told all Titans are born of worldsouls that would mean their home plane would be a factory that produces those same worldsouls and transports those planets out into the universe. The Titans may never have been there. We also were given the impression that Titans did not know where all the worldsouls were in the universe or what functions each soul would serve. The only thing they seemed to be sure of was that Azeroth was to be the most powerful one that they know of.
if only steve danuser had the same kind of thinking than the players this would work perfectly, but it will not, steve danuser is the king of cliche stories, you don't even have to think hard anymore to know what is he going to mess up later.
It's interesting. This is one of those lore stories that sounds absolutely grand in scale and has so much at stake, but is also so deeply lacking in characters that it might as well be a bulletin board that state: "Stuff happens". It's the same trap bad cartoons or anime has, where they turn the scale dial up hoping that people will stay invested, failing in the process. It's just gone off the rails here, ngl.
World of Warcraft feels like a game run by a novice uncreative dungeon master , just constantly bigger and badder and bigger , no rhyme or reason . Gods, bigger gods, creator gods , gods that made creator gods … on and on , soon as you beat the big bad , SURPRISE, an even bigger and badder bad , bleh 🤮 and they connect everything by saying SURPRISE it was Agatha all along , again , and again , and ….. surprise …. Again … just bleh 🤮
I think Elunes "betrayal" was giving night elves the immortality. This clearly screwed over the shadowlands and broke the natural cycle of things. If you have mortal beings that can live for tens of thousands of years, hoarding knowledge, magic and anima thats going to create a serious imbalance. And probably what fueled Elunes ascension to godhood.
But it wasnt Elune who granted them immortality. It was a side effect of the well of eternity and later on the dragon aspects blessed nordrassil. As far as I know Elune didn't had any say in that.
@@5l0wp0k3 exactly lol. In fact the well of eternity just gave them muuch longer mortal lives. However, yes the dragon aspects using the powers given by the keepers gave the kal'dorei their immortality
I think elune's going off the path had nothing to do with the night elves. In fact i feel the night elves worshipping elune was part of the original plan, since that whole interaction between elune and nature(ysera and ultimately keeper freya which even more ultimately eonar) seems to further promote order, there wasn't anything chaotic in these senses. However I think if it's true Elune created the naaru, supposed beings from the light plane... I think that was the act of her betrayal, not saying she did something evil, but she ended up doing too much to protect people from the rogue titan and his burning legion by creating this army of light even though she isn't even from the plane of light. She did something that was not of her role basically. We also know the Naaru was to directly oppose the burning legion and not the void so much since it was the titans that were directly fighting the void. She also gave people too much power to try and defend their civilizations from the burning legion... all of these actions shows she did too much direct stuff. All in all, I think her betrayal was caring too much and thus overreaching from her assigned role. Also I do think the titans definitely have some relationship with Elune, since it would seem weird if not. I wonder if possibly elune stole or borrowed power from the titans of orders; if borrowed then maybe when the titans of order were loosing against their brother, they entrusted some of their power to Elune to help defend their world creations from the rogue titan and his burning legion as a desperate last effort. If that was the case though then it would explain why she is an upstart goddess but it wouldn't mean the actions she made were an act of betrayal, or maybe she didn't even betray at all. Though if she stole then that would be act of betrayal even though it was for good.
@@5l0wp0k3 Elune has direct affect on one of the dragon aspects, did you forget that Elune directly interacted with Ysera? The dragon aspects didnt just come up with the idea of empowering world trees out of the blue, someone had to tell the aspects to empower these trees that directly benefited the night elves (who just coincidentally were Elunes favored children).
I'm pretty sure the game states why the Winter Queen upset with Elune; the Winter Queen asked Elune for help because of the anima drought, and she thought Elune did nothing. Elune, hearing her sister's cry for help, does not step in when Sylvanas burns the world tree and allows thousands of elves to die so they might solve the drought. However, the souls that died in the burning of Teldrassil, instead of going to Ardenweald, went straight to the Maw because of Zoval. That's why the Winter Queen is upset. She asked Elune for help, but didn't realize she sent help because that help got stolen away mid-transit. I could be wrong, but that's how I interpreted the cinematic. Now, why they call her a rebel goddess, I haven't a clue.
That would not be true according to Metzen writing. In the intended Metzen writing, Elune made the night elves able to continue living without aging (could still die if you stubbed your toe and fell and hit your head) but only as a way to get them to promise they would protect the World Tree as it sealed the wound in Azeroth so that maybe it would slowly heal underneath. And indeed, the night elves were told by Elune that if the tree was lost, they would lose that gift of immortality. That isn't a rebellion against life magic......that is a direct application of it to try to keep spreading life through the world trees.
I'm not sure what makes her the "upstart goddess" (I argue that it points to an ancient war and not some "betrayal"), but it's not why she's estranged from the WQ. Forgive me if I'm remembering wrong, but the estrangement is solely due to the stupidest misunderstanding ever where the WQ expected Elune to send her souls with the anima drought but neither yet knew about the Arbiter being decommissioned and then continued to blame Elune after finding out despite Elune not being able to circumvent the Arbiter to begin with anyways. My guess in the ancient war, Elune "corrupted" void servants into the Naaru, thus changing the balance of the ancient war and greatly upsetting the Void Lords and, by extension, Xal'atath. I wouldn't be surprised if she had absorbed/stolen the powers of a Void Lord or an Old God (and even a Light equivalent) to do this considering her almost unique power over light and dark.
I think it would be interesting if Zovaal was originally a 'good' guy rebelling against what he perceived as an unjust system and that his betrayal and imprisonment by his 'brothers and sisters' drove him mad, leaving us with the Zovaal we're currently dealing with. Because let's face it, the system as it is currently is pretty horrific. Souls are little more than copper-tops/fertilizer used to fuel the powers that be.
I miss the days of wc2,3 and what is now known as WoW classic. The story/ plot was way less complicated, more on point, better written and just way more appealing. Plus: the villains seem to posses an 400IQ even outmaneuvering the Blizz story department
i love your enthousiasm, but remember this product comes from a company that introduced Arthas in a cinematic and then let's you not find him in the zone he was thrown in, and is he did ( i stopped playing) on that new island, he got dropped into something that wasn't reachable before this xpack started.
I think you put far more thought into the storyline than blizzard does to be honest. It feels like Blizzard just adds a ton of random references so that later, they can just pick one that fits whatever they are writing for that expansion. I wish I could believe there was an actual master plan and thought behind the stories, but they havent shown that to be the case. The only constant has been that each expansion retcons more and more of the lore.
My mind is still blown by the fact that a Titan+ type of character, who has unbelievable power and innumerable hordes of henchmen, can be taken down by a handful of humanoid beings with axes, bows and arrows, and a bit of magic that should be inconsequential to a being of this magnitude. That's like saying that Tony Stark, without his armor being powered up, could stand toe-to-toe with someone massive like Galactus. Hell, even with powered armor, Galactus would still make quick work of him. x50? For a being who devours planets for a living, easy. That's how it seemed like they were portraying the Jailer, and if this description is accurate, I absolutely cannot take their lore seriously anymore.
Wasn’t it explained why the winter queen’s disdain for her sister was because she reached out for help during the drought and got no answer so she felt abandoned.
I’m hoping for a storyline like Magic Knights Rayearth, where the crime is that Zoval fell in love with Elune, but the entire universe is constructed to keep them apart. So the surprise twist will be when players kill Zoval, and this makes Elune turn into the next big bad, because she loved him back and was hoping we’d contain him instead of killing him…. …it could be that I need to take a break from anime. I do like the implication that every character in various pantheons we’ve seen has a counter-part in a different plane, though it really makes you wonder what the void’s pantheons might resemble.
What the hell happened. Where’s orcs invading, Jaina bridging the factions, thrall doing shaman stuff, this game has become a Korean Manga at this point. Unless you’ve watched all 600 episodes it won’t make any sense, and even if it did the power scaling is absurd and everything that mattered becomes irrelevant
Except I have seen and read and watched everything wow.... and it still doesn't make sense the crap that Danuser is writing. The Metzen original stuff makes sense... but this Danuser kidnapping does not.
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I feel pretty confident you care more about this than anyone at Blizzard at this point.
Oh all WoW creators and even fans care WAYYY more about this game than Blizz. Feels like 10 years since they took anything seriously.
Hard disagree. I think the devs care a great deal. I also think they get their marching orders and aren’t listened to when they say “hey maybe this isn’t the way, boss.” Hence where Blizz is today, because it’s already very clear the exec level and up don’t give a shit unless there’s $$$ attached.
@@ryanmckannan2134 I think the Art team care a great deal. Other than that Blizzard is a hollow shell. I just hope those boots on the ground workers get the hell out of this sinking ship and get a job where they can provide for their families without being harassed and underpaid.
@@redhammer92 You’ve got a point, regardless of which of us is right. I know Terran Gregory definitely gives a damn, because we all get his best work. The art team has always been amazing. Definitely donating to the ABK strike fund in the meantime.
@@gabbyb9418 I dunno, I thought Legion lore was a pretty sweet. Then HARD LEFT!
I think something like this could be true, but I personally feel like it de-personalizes a lot of the game. For instance, I no longer want Elune to be explained by them, because I just want her to be the moon goddess, if that makes sense. I really don't like the whole mechanical slant to everything; I don't mind having things like magical engineering, tinkering and such but I want the high concepts to be mystical.
I also think this lore is a product of today's obsessive need to explain the rules of magic and belief systems in detail, which can be fun on a world-building level but I think often a futile concept for telling good stories. An aside that is very subjective of course, but it has been a thing for a while in scifi and fantasy of late to really go in deep on the details, rather than focusing on explaining what the story needs. I think a result of this you can see in how almost all dialogue has to be exposition setup in the very limited space they already have for writing characters. Maybe they can prove us wrong and have the next outing lean onto this in a satisfying story way, but for me I have doubts, so I keep the expectation modest until I find out. :)
Agreed
Spot on. The lore has taken a shonen anime-like turn since a while ago, where the mechanics of the fictional universe are more important than developing interesting characters that we can relate to. I have friends who eat that stuff up and will argue about nonsensical things like the positioning of one sith's foot in a lightsaber duel against a jedi that led to him winning. Like, why does that even matter? But I guess the mechanical details allows for meganerds to deeply immerse themselves in the escapism of the IP.
Doing in the Wizard is a creatively boring trope, and writers REALLY need to use it FAR more sparingly.
Actually... people are just sticking with the established lore or rule, they just want atleast a rational way to understand the said system/belief. Most writers seem to overlook the feedback of their readers when they just want cohesive storytelling rather than a massive setting. The plot doesn't have to dabble too much in explaining everything, but establishing it with just the right amount.
People just want consistency and it should be maintained the very least. Going further needs a careful introduction and transitioning without certain pieces left untouched.
If you want to see this done in a satisfying way, then (once the queues settle down) you should consider checking out FFXIV.
Remember when we were tasked with stopping a bunch of dwarves and lizard-folk from summoning the lord of fire to our plane of existence? Good times.
Remember when we had to save a young prince from a purple evil dragon?
@@greenelf444 didn't happen to us though lore says Varian killed onyxia.
All I remember is one button rotations and huge class imbalance. Horrible times.
@@greenelf444 Then we got to stop a big evil dragon from creating an army of experimental, elemental dragons.
Remember when whe were fighting the Horde in Tarren Mill?
Anyone else disappointed how shitty the afterlife is portrayed in WoW? I mean shit, the best people's fate is to have their personality erased... It goes downhill from there.
well it's better than the abyss of nothing that awaits us irl
@@BaneRain lmao as if you know what’s on the other side “irl”
@@BaneRain You don't know what awaits us... And if there really is nothing, we won't be aware of it which is probably better than the eternal shit show that the characters are damned to.
We all know what happens when we die, and there is no other side.
Harry Potter is just fiction, so is Lotr and the bible etc.
@BaneRain is right, all that awaits is eternal darkness. There's no such thing as a soul or magic etc, those are just made up words.
@@Raffalius Everything you just said is made up words. Your opinion is made up words. Why should I give it more value than what anyone else says?
You gotta wonder what they could possibly do after this in the game. It's like power creep but with storytelling. Are future expansions gonna just feature an ever increasing series of more powerful secret gods?
They probably gonna go with a void and light expansion
Slash and burn to the existing story because it is not Danuser's.
I wish they’d just go back and pick up threads on Azeroth. What’s going on with the Defias and Scarlet crusade? What are the night elves going to do now that pretty much everything they have has been destroyed? How will the forsaken exist, and where will they “live” now? What about even older stories, like Duskwood? What’s going on in Searing Gorge now that the dark iron are part of the three hammers? So so so much they could do with what they’ve abandoned.
the super jailer which planned all the stuff even the jailer stuff.
@@KackfeeLP and to me that would be the very very end lol
Could Elune's rebelion be granting the Elves immortality, basically taking them out of the cycle of life and death?
Pretty sure the immortality came from Nozdormu. Unless that's been retconned as well...
A gift from each of the aspects when Nordrassil was planted into the new Well of Eternity. IIRC
I'd have to answer that two different ways.....
In the original Metzen lore that created the game: Elune did not grant elves immortality, she gave them a limited protection from death caused by aging but only if they spent their time keeping the World Tree alive and safe. And since those World Trees were a way for Life to seal away and heal the wound in the planet Azeroth...it was not a rebellion at all....it was more like compensation for doing a job while Elune was busy elsewhere.
In the ridiculous Steve Danuser violations: the meaningless 3d printed robot elune machine has no understanding and no intelligence and no critical thinking skills and it let the world tree be destroyed then sent the ghosts of night elves straight to the maw.
@@AecoYT When Nordrassil on Mount Hyjal was sacrificed to stop Archimonde, its draconic blessings were lost. The Night Elves then spent the better part of the next decade trying to get the dragons to bless their newly planted replacement tree Teldrassil, but only Ysera and Alexstrasza granted their blessings, with Nozdormu still refusing to grant the night elves with his blessing of immortality. After Teldrassil got burned down, there are now (probably) no dragon blessings affecting the night elves.
The Well of Eternity, while powerful, was capped by Nordrassil when Malfurion declared arcane magic to be evil. Blizzard has never actually used the Well of Eternity other than as a setting for Nordrassil, and all indicators point to the Well still being capped, so it’s doubtful that it’s affecting anybody.
tl;dr the blessings were bestowed upon the trees, which have since either had their blessings sacrificed or incinerated completely. The second Well of Eternity is just a pond that Blizzard never found a use for.
@@drewthelegend Right. So are the elves no longer immortal? I remember that being the case in vanilla WoW (questline in Ashenvale about a daughter's sickness, etc.). But I also remember something about them regaining their immortality somehow since then. Their immortality never had anything to do with Elune, though. Even remotely. That was what I was referring to in my original post.
@@AecoYT technicly its elunes gift trough nozdormu
I think WoW devs have taken it way too far in terms scale for the game. Like having this galactic space stuff with a game that started as a simple fantasy game stuff seems a bit too far.
You want to know why I think why it's a bad thing? Because to justify it, the devs will need to continuously scale bigger with each expansion. So how far will they go with the galactic stuff, just trying to one-up each expansion?
This is the end they fucked it up so they need to start anew
Its amazing how the bigger they scale, the smaller the game gets.
the idea of it could work in theory, but I doubt the skills of the current wow writing team is up to snuff to actually pull it off. they are rushing through a 7 course meal so they can eat the dessert which is a warm pop tart.
I mean, they have done scaling back (kinda) of threats with MoP, where the main focus was the conflict of colonization of Pandaria between the Horde and the Alliance until Old God stuff happened. So they can do it, but it seems they don't want to. They have many ideas that are cool, but they exploration and exception are ankle deep.
@@LeGoooze MoP was the last time i even slightly enjoyed WoW and its world. MoP is seriously underrated.
God I hate Blizzard story telling now. They used up too many big bads far too quickly.
Kinda reminds me of the problem Stargate SG1 faced after the defeat of the Goa’uld. Replicators then eventually the Ori. Things got a bit nuts towards the end.
All I know is that if I was developing story for the world of an MMO I’d focus on the ordinary lands, races and wars.
@@mikoto7693 "I'd focus on the ordinary lands, races, and wars." Same, tbh. Hell you can rip off so much of real world history and dress it all up in fantasy aesthetic and theme. You could take a lot of the history of the Byzantines and cram it into warcraft and it'd fit right on in providing context and reason for all kinds of conflict and curious characters and shit. But you do don't see that sort of thing a lot. Instead we get failed super hero comic writers doing whatever the fuck they're doing at blizzard now.
Love your videos bellular Glad you’re still doing it I miss the game occasionally but I’m glad I’ve been focusing on other hobbies the last few years. It just became an obsession and not a very fun obsession at that. Still check in every now and then to see what’s going on in the law that was always my favorite part of the game and immersing myself in the world and making friends and I just feel like that aspect of the game is gone
This is how I enjoy WoW: by watching Bellular and Taliesin & Evitel. I hate the current WoW gameplay, I hate the direction of the game, I hate the toxic nature of what little community is left, I hate the fanboi middle school fanfic level of the story. But I'll always enjoy the lore and what the community has to say about it.
Watching these videos makes a great break from doing the MSQ in Endwalker when I need to take time to eat lunch or dinner, definitely.
Remember when the biggest threat was stopping the lich king, because he wanted to create an army of undeath?
Remember when the individual races had their own beliefs, tauren with the earthmother, trolls with the Loa, humans with light, dwarfs with the titans.
The problem with expanding a story out this broadly, it takes the things that made Warcraft rich and makes it feel insignificant
Exactly. We're getting out into the weeds top much. We're losing the medieval dungeons and dragons feel of the game that made it so popular.
And this blind faith gives them more fuel to make more bland stories and characters.
@@italiahockey the story has been made bland by having all races beliefs and social structures all from the same source
@@MrOrcshaman thats like IRL.. if suddenly we would meet our "creator" all cultures, religions, beliefs, knowledge that went from generation to generation would crumble.
Same with wow, we now know the "person" behind alot of things that were (aand should have stayed) mysterious.. now that we fight gods and titans and all the cosmic armies, its hard to go back fighting a lets say "scarlet crusade army" which would be 100x times more fun in my opinion.
@@Gril018 it's the old but true message of less is more. By revealing more, you take away mystery and intrigue.
It's why I can never play classic wow, since all the unknown curiosity and ethos has been laid bare, and a lot of wows magic is now gone because of it
I always thought the Shadowlands were a dark reflection of Azeroth that you go to when you die. Like a counterpart to the Emerald Dream. That’s clearly how they portrayed it in WoW and Chronicle up until now, it is it not?
That was Metzen's planned idea...... what we are being shown instead is Danuser crap, which is inconsistent with everything that matters to us.
Yep, until Danuser retconned all the Warcraft out, and said the Chronicle wasn't accurate.
Changes this has on bellular: EVERYTHING
Changes this has on the game:
Changes this comment had on ANYTHING:
@@clauslarsen8971 oof, sounds like you're hurt. You're gonna be ok little boy.
@@thesunryze4658 You just called someone a little boy over the internet.. Sounds likr you're the hurt one. Was your daddy too rough?
@@clauslarsen8971 Claus Larsen uses deflection. It's not very effective..
@@thesunryze4658 That's literally that you did to begin with. Damn, virgins are pissed these days
It's incredible how while I watch this kind of videos I think "It would be so cool if it was real, if warcraft writers could actually do anything remotely simmilar to a coherent story. No, there is just no way they even thought about that."
this is what comes into existence when a 12 year old discovers the Silmarillion and decides to write one themselves, thats exactly what this feels like
Warcraft Lore progression in a nutshell:
There is always a bigger fish...
Remeber the days, when some mad dragons and an evil necromancer where the biggest threat we have to face?
The bigger fish trope is fine in most cases - especially if the writers take the time to invest into it. But Warcraft's writers really don't do that.
so you'd rather have us fight mad dragons/evil necromancers for years to come?
you speak as if Blizzard's the only one who dabbled with this trope. fcking seriously?
@@nutterbipple and you speak as if Blizzard is doing a great job with this lore.
I think its a bit curious i haven't really seen anyone point out the similarity to the word Zerith and Azeroth. Wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of connection there. Maybe Azeroth's original name was A'Zerith, or "The Keystone"
why do i have a feeling you're onto something here :monkas:
I miss older things like stories about dwarves, elves, dragons, etc. Things are just a little to cosmic for me at the moment.
Agreed.
i know right... the universe need a bit of mystery... i think the direction to show the gods and all that is the wrong direction. especially since we the players defeat everyone. what does that make us?
@@Mr19awsome92 Its the world of 10 million Kratos atm :D Jokes aside, I enjoyed the game and its world a lot more while it was within AZEROTH!!! not some space sh*t and whatnot..
There really isn't much "shadow" in the Shadowlands and the whole thing went downhill from there. I had a feeling that this was going to be my last expansion for this game and this does nothing to change that.
I like this idea, but i doubt the devs have thought this far. From my pov, it seems like they just thought the Jailer was cool.
And retconned, and squeezed, forced and pushed all our favorite lore characters into it, making the awful soup we have now.
I was so looking forward to an Elune based expansion, but not where we meet her, hear her say she was wrong, etc, Where she stood by not helping her favored children when they burned to death. they messed with WC3, my favorite game, and butchered it even more than reforged.
totally agree with you my friend, hell after what they did with Nzoth now I don't want them to use other story lines like Elune because I'm pretty sure they will just mess everything up
And we still haven't had the Drust fleshed out. Attacking from somewhere in the Shadowlands, but basically untouched after the base Ardenweald story.
probably won't talk about the drust again. Clearly they are cutting one patch out of the expansion.
@@user-fv7jd4xj5n Which is sad. I understand real-world stuff happened, but that was the one storyline I was really looking forward to the exploration on for the expansion.
@@cass_telia2014 Same. I expected a raid with Gorak Tul and instead we jump right into the maw and fight Sylvanas right away.
I really don't understand how anyone can get invested in the lore when it's just going to be retconned as soon as the writers think of a "cool" new idea and then realize it doesn't fit.
The lore is so dumb. I miss small potatoes. The big fish are too big and convoluted now. It's so far removed from the world we were all attached to and enjoyed adventuring in. Really would not have hurt to expand the continents and new lands to explore. Discover the remnants of the spider lands in Northrend or go explore the idea of different human cultures like the kultiran. These cosmic forces are just so far removed from the world it feels like we are straying further and further away from the game we care about.
Think back to killing gnolls and hogs in Redridge. Far more rewarding storyline. Legion really wrapped up the storyline of the entire WoW lore, everything after really feels like extremely bolted-on retcons featuring characters nobody's ever heard of and nobody cares about. And the way they're demystifying some stuff (e.g. Elune) is just making it ... bland. The new storylines are bad, and they're being told badly. The systems are bad and they're executed badly. Game's in a very rough spot.
I think the problem with wow that the harmony of the story, the art and coziness of Warcraft world is no longer there. All the ingredients for a good game are separate from each other.
The game is getting bigger as a balloon, but there is not much content anymore.
When you put your soul in creating the game it changes everything. I don’t feel that people who make wow are interested in the game itself. And it’s sad.
I think there's probably a lot of people that want to care about the game, they wouldn't stick around in such a bad work environment (the lower lvl employees, I mean) if they didn't. But there's only so much you can do if the people running the show are incompetent, and I find that really sad.
I dunno what went through their heads when they decided to make WoW a science fiction game instead of high fantasy, for literally no reason. But they have been piggyback riding off the world & lore crated in the RTS series. So I have a feeling that they ran out of ideas, and high fantasy content is harder and takes longer to make.
How do you just deflate from that ? Apparently they plan to lower the scale of things going forward, but it's not like you can just pretend it's not there anymore and just go on with whatever earthly plot comes next (they definitely will do that though).
When you look at dragons and elemental lords, they're basically just worms at this point in the Warcraft universe, even though they used to be god like beings not so long ago. Just how fast do they have to burn through everything there is to explore, it's unbelievable.
Yeah, they're not leaving themselves anywhere to go. Usually, you'd take the route of, "oh, this entity isn't at full power" or you had to take advantage of a special set of circumstances/assistance/items/whatever. Gives you a way to take things down a notch. But now we just march around, kicking the shit out of the strongest beings in existence with a handful of regular people with sharp weapons.
Remember when even The Lich King was too much for us to handle head-on and just straight up deleted your raid when he was done fucking around?
@@Xero_Kaiser it's especially ridiculous when you remember that the new and updated bears and coyotes that will probably populate the next expansion will kick your ass. But I guess that's just game sense, it's not meant to be looked that way, in a narrative perspective.
They just have no idea what the player character even is in this setting, wielding more power than kings and gods but having none in the societies of the world themselves, you just get your orders from anyone willing to give you some and execute.
@@thorn_lekoh That is strange, isn't it? The players see-saw between being a nobody and body-slamming every god in the cosmos.
They want to write the Silmarilion. But with out character interactions, events or story going on.
Just put a bunch of rules and say "and this is how it works" but not having the Turin Turambar or Morgoth doing stuff
I think people think they want to write the Silmarilion, but what they actually want to write are comic books.
The WoW story is a lot easier to enjoy when you approach it as a comic book type story as opposed to high fantasy.
@@TaliesinMyrddin So, these are the people who couldn't get into the already very open doors at DC and Marvel? Things make more sense now.
@@username12120 just like how the journalists who couldn't make the cut went into games journalism. Despite being a multi billion dollar industry, gaming is still treated as second rate.
So if the Winter Queen has a counterpart in Elune in the realm of Life, do they all have counterparts in the Life realm as well? Is it a means of keeping balance and order? Does Zovaal have a counterpart in the realm of Life? And what or who is the Blue Child of Elune and how does it figure into everything? What is it's purpose?
When we fought argus diamond boy literally said when we reached the pantheons place "the cradle of creation" so now we got this new place.... how does it all fit in?
I just want to quest in a small human village again where gnolls were the biggest threat.
@Zarozapa CnJ peoples recollection of the early story of wow is severely lacking, isnt it.
@Zarozapa CnJ The difference is that people care about those enemies. They are tied to the very world the players walk around in. Also all those bosses are literally ants compared to whats going on now.
The final boss of Warcraft will be/is Bobby Kotick. He tricked all these "gods" into fighting all these wars amongst one another while he takes ALL of their mone- uh.. souls. Yes. He is hoarding ALL the souls. The Maw is actually just his enormous wallet.
He looks like gorefiend to me.
every new bit of *lore* we seem to get for WoW is a "well actualy they just didnt tell you the truth" or a "well tehy told you what they though they knew" and retconing previous stuff to fit the "new" stroy they are trying to write, it just come off as very lazy and sloppy making people confused just so they can do *big* reveals and act like they are smart and we the readers/players are stupid its just pathetic and insulting.
All wow has now is good art and visuals with poor story lack of content and bad game design its dissapointing and pathetic to see how far they have fallen and how far they are determend to dig deeper into the crap hole.
Conclusion: Warcraft lore is being expanded so much its getting ripped to shreds.
I absolutely hate when writers can't come up with original content within an established lore that they have to expand it for new material so it goes to shits.
I mean Ok, let's say we go through all these "plains of existence" through numerous expansions... then what? Create a new bubble to explain them? Keep this up until what? We realize it's all a simulated reality and the characters come out of the game into our world and raid blizzard HQ?
trying to pack so much lore into the asshole of warcraft, the sphincter is tearing.
@@Shiirow 🤭😄👌🏼
Fire Steve Danuser !
Banger video once again Bell, this actually got me a little more invested in the cosmic story
You kind of implied that Elune sucked in her role as a protector of life, whilst showing a glimpse of Teldrassil's destruction,
but in the Elune/Winter queen 9.1 cinematic, Elune says that she 'sent forth a cascade of souls' to sustain Ardenweald - which makes it quite a deliberate act,
she also questions whether Tirande will select vengeance, or renewal, which implies there's a possibility the Night Elves, Teldrassil, etc. have chance
of being brought back from the Maw's eternal condemnation, perhaps with a new home in Ardenweald?
You left out the part where she sent the souls “in the wake of tragedy”. She didn’t cause or allow the burning of teldrassil, but as the protector of night elf souls she reacted to the event by directing the souls to the shadowlands instead of turning them into wisps
This isn't WoW anymore, I hope they find their way back to the roots of what WoW once was.
Problem is, they can't top the Lich King storyline, mainly because there isn't a WC4 to set it up. It was an interesting direction but they butchered it. I still can't forgive them with how dirty they've done Devos. We had an epic cinematic and then killed her in Spires early on before doing the whole campaign. So disappointing
The current development team/writing team will not ever do that. They aren't capable of it. The only way to fix WOW at this point is a Realm Reborn style reboot. Activision does not have the balls to do something like that.
I used to think final fantasy was odd with all its techno weird stuff . Current wow makes FF look like a grounded old school rpg fantasy world ….. crazzeee
"In a time before time"; after 17 years, we find out that WoW is a sequel to Bionicle?
I think if it's true Elune created the naaru, supposed beings from the light plane... I think that was the act of her betrayal, not saying she did something evil, but she ended up doing too much to protect people from the rogue titan and his burning legion by creating this army of light even though she isn't even from the plane of light. She did something that was not of her role basically. We also know the Naaru was to directly oppose the burning legion and not the void so much since it was the titans that were directly fighting the void. She also gave people too much power to try and defend their civilizations from the burning legion... all of these actions shows she did too much direct stuff.
All in all, I think her betrayal was caring too much and thus overreaching from her assigned role.
Also I do think the titans definitely have some relationship with Elune, since it would seem weird if not. I wonder if possibly elune stole or borrowed power from the titans of orders; if borrowed then maybe when the titans of order were loosing against their brother, they entrusted some of their power to Elune to help defend their world creations from the rogue titan and his burning legion as a desperate last effort. If that was the case though then it would explain why she is an upstart goddess but it wouldn't mean the actions she made were an act of betrayal, or maybe she didn't even betray at all. Though if she stole then that would be act of betrayal even though it was for good.
Let me know what you guys think.
Personally I don't mind the cosmic stuff. I just wish we had a lesser role in it all and the primary lore characters would shine again.
You take Cataclysm, for instance. So many lore characters had to be helped along the way. We played the helper, the defender, the back up to these behemoths of lore who actually stood up against the evils.
Same for Wrath. It wasn't the heroes that ultimately killed Arthas.
Even in Legion we had the help of the other titans. Now it seems like we are far too much involved and put at the front and center.
If they're going to go down the whole cosmic storyline I beg them to change the narrative so the focus is more on the Warcraft characters. Develop them. Flesh them out. Make us care about helping them and fighting for them again.
That's too much work mate...
I have brought this up for some time. Souls in the beginning of WoW, especially WC3, went to the twisting nether. It wasn't hell necessarily but it wasn't heaven either. Shamans were able to interact with it until WoW was released. It was how they became corrupted and became warlocks in lore. The shadowlands, being an engine, felt like the emerald dream. A construct, and being an engine made use of anima, which goes to your theory that Order won. I have wondered if time somehow was altered and allowed this to happen. With that said, we see void in bastion, light in Revendreth, death in Ardenweald, Chaos in Maldraxxas, but we see no Order attacking anything. Maybe the war like areas happened before and false memories were placed into the habitants to explain it. What if, there is something in order stronger than the Titans, as the titans = old gods and something greater of order = void lords and we missed something through all of this.
The word "Zereth" is so similar to "Azeroth" - I can't imagine this isn't intentional. So either Azeroth is a Zereth which name was changed through time or it is another "keystone" that connects them all. Let's see where this is going :-)
Azeroth is the Zereth of sleep ;)
It seems to be that the Great Beyond is the original universe with Azeroth in the centre and every realm belonging to the cosmological forces came after. As we see that Zerath Mortis draws his power from azerite its kinda safe to assume that the other Zerath's are doing the same thing
Holy shit, this was a fun to watch video. You gave me Legion vibes (and I mean your Legion vibes). Nice work there Bell team. Keep it up
I wonder if Bellular's motivation for putting out these videos is in the hopes that Blizzard watches them and uses his breakdowns to make their storytelling more coherent.
I've been following these developing plot lines for years and I think it's time to just accept it, This Titan/cosmic creation stuff doesn't interest me at all. Barely even feels like Warcraft anymore.
I just want a simple quest to collect seeds and kill Murlocs
So I listened and watch this. Honestly this is one of the most boring settings I have ever seen in game lores. There really is nothing to get invested into and we as a players would have been far better off not knowing all this and just experiencing the "power conflict" back on Azeroth. I can imagine Steve Danuser somewhere jacking of to his high intellect but most of us really don't appreciate this.
Lore staff r doin a terrible job , this cosmic aspect they'r goin after is makin ppl less intressted in the story , wht hpnd to the great story which was the Lich King and Illidan the big badies which ppl were so much into nd actually liked
now we r killin titans nd universe creators ? its so confusin nd almost impossible to understand nd keep up with with tones of twists nd retkons , ppl were fine bein a simple orc or human which was part of a huge universe
wow story gave its last breaths at the end of Legion , at least Sargeras was a vilain we chased for many years
The pantheons are weird. They are dope but for beings created by a single force there is certainly a lot of them using another one. Eonar embodies life despite being arcane creation, Elune seems to be somewhere in between life and light, Argus was titan of death, Winter Queen is connected to nature, Kyrestia and all of Kyrian have arcane based spells, Denathrius is a vampire like the void.
Every time you say "Lifelands", I imagine Batman slapping Robin comicbook meme.
So, I have a genuine question and I hope you can even make a video on this: what are the basics in WoW? Like if WoW "went back to the basics," what would that be?
I want to compare Pokemon here, because I hope Blizzard can do what Nintendo and Game Freak did.
Pokemon started out simple, going through forests and such just enjoying the natural and familiar yet magical world around you. Power creep had it going into enigmatic lore of legendary creatures able to manipulate space and time and reality itself. And Pokemon lost a lot of following because it ceased to be familiar, relatable and fun. It got too big for it's britches as they say. But they found a way to dial it back, and get back to the basics, focusing on what made the game fun. Sun and Moon was simple island culture. And Sword and Shield was just a simple region of cities and wild areas. No cosmic existential threats at all. They had all the basics though: Pokemon to collect, new places to explore, and the simple goal of challenging the local pokemon league. And a simple and balanced story arch involving a villain and a mysterious legendary Pokemon. Most importantly, they focused on the things that made the game fun.
There seems to be an unwritten rule that every subsequent thing that happens in fantasy storylines must be of a much greater magnitude than the last, but that simply isn't true. Pokemon proved that. I would say Marvel is doing a decent job with the superheroes post-Thanos. I think Blizzard can do it too.
Sun/Moon broke the pokeverse with ultra beasts and eternatus did the same in swsh
Gotta give it to Bel for dedication, 3+ yrs and he's still talking about the "Life lands" Even though we have the material plane and the emerald dream that are both lands full of life. And how Malfurion even tells us in Legion that the emerald dream was the prototype for everything on azeroth. That's commitment to an idea!
More cosmic stuff?
How about *less* cosmic stuff!
I think other planar powers might perceive Elune as having abandoned her original charge to instead go play god for a myriad civilizations across the material plane. Crossing the veil and using one’s powers to go play god, even with benevolent intentions, might be a big taboo.
I think one interesting detail on the whole Elune as a rebel is to recall that the Night Elves used to be immortals, keeping them outside the cycle of life and death. That only changed after the events of Warcraft III
$10 says Sargeras comes back and gets a redemption arc
Personaly, the way ActiBlizzard treat it's workers changed how i think about Warcraft, but to each their own.
Just throwing this out there but if Sargaras just decided to smash the moon instead of stabbing azeroth with his sword. Would that affect Alune? Or is the moon just a symbol and not a source of power? Im just confused as to how Alune and the Winterqueen are opposites.
remember when this game was about humans and orcs killing each other
There's further evidence to support a cosmic war event. The Light (Lumos) invaded the SL's at Revendreth. There's a huge section of scorched terrain there. The question remains is why make Revendreth a target over the other realms?
Then there's the Voids invasion in Bastion at Agithas repose. Same question as with Revendreth. Why invade Bastion as opposed to other realms? What events led up to these conflicts?
Quick question... Did the plane of death exist before curse of flesh? If so, why? Who was dying?
You’re such an amazing person, I see all these other people complaining and making wow look bad. You’re actually looking for good things about the game. You’re a true fan of wow just like me! I love you . This video made me so relaxed . ❤️
I think you might've forgotten about the 7th plane, the Plane of Retcons :D
@bellular I love your lore videos bro, I surely do, I get excited every time I see your theories, but then it is all "crash and burn" when blizzard finally shows the true way the story goes, I mean there is more passion from lore youtube creators than from blizzard, sometimes I feel they wait for youtube creators to hype their story and just sit on their asses and ride the train you guys push
This lore is so less interesting than anything revolving the "geopolitics" of Warcraft. If this cosmic stuff is the future of the story i'm glad i just started the critically acclaimed mmo final fantasy xiv online.
A thought, if as we have been told all Titans are born of worldsouls that would mean their home plane would be a factory that produces those same worldsouls and transports those planets out into the universe. The Titans may never have been there. We also were given the impression that Titans did not know where all the worldsouls were in the universe or what functions each soul would serve. The only thing they seemed to be sure of was that Azeroth was to be the most powerful one that they know of.
if only steve danuser had the same kind of thinking than the players this would work perfectly, but it will not, steve danuser is the king of cliche stories, you don't even have to think hard anymore to know what is he going to mess up later.
I hope they integrate the stolen breastmilk into the wow story
It's interesting. This is one of those lore stories that sounds absolutely grand in scale and has so much at stake, but is also so deeply lacking in characters that it might as well be a bulletin board that state: "Stuff happens". It's the same trap bad cartoons or anime has, where they turn the scale dial up hoping that people will stay invested, failing in the process. It's just gone off the rails here, ngl.
A 20min Bel's vídeo means 2min lore in-game content.
I need to take awhile to digest this information. Great video!
World of Warcraft feels like a game run by a novice uncreative dungeon master , just constantly bigger and badder and bigger , no rhyme or reason . Gods, bigger gods, creator gods , gods that made creator gods … on and on , soon as you beat the big bad , SURPRISE, an even bigger and badder bad , bleh 🤮 and they connect everything by saying SURPRISE it was Agatha all along , again , and again , and ….. surprise …. Again … just bleh 🤮
I think Elunes "betrayal" was giving night elves the immortality. This clearly screwed over the shadowlands and broke the natural cycle of things. If you have mortal beings that can live for tens of thousands of years, hoarding knowledge, magic and anima thats going to create a serious imbalance. And probably what fueled Elunes ascension to godhood.
But it wasnt Elune who granted them immortality. It was a side effect of the well of eternity and later on the dragon aspects blessed nordrassil. As far as I know Elune didn't had any say in that.
@@5l0wp0k3 exactly lol. In fact the well of eternity just gave them muuch longer mortal lives. However, yes the dragon aspects using the powers given by the keepers gave the kal'dorei their immortality
I think elune's going off the path had nothing to do with the night elves. In fact i feel the night elves worshipping elune was part of the original plan, since that whole interaction between elune and nature(ysera and ultimately keeper freya which even more ultimately eonar) seems to further promote order, there wasn't anything chaotic in these senses.
However I think if it's true Elune created the naaru, supposed beings from the light plane... I think that was the act of her betrayal, not saying she did something evil, but she ended up doing too much to protect people from the rogue titan and his burning legion by creating this army of light even though she isn't even from the plane of light. She did something that was not of her role basically. We also know the Naaru was to directly oppose the burning legion and not the void so much since it was the titans that were directly fighting the void. She also gave people too much power to try and defend their civilizations from the burning legion... all of these actions shows she did too much direct stuff.
All in all, I think her betrayal was caring too much and thus overreaching from her assigned role.
Also I do think the titans definitely have some relationship with Elune, since it would seem weird if not. I wonder if possibly elune stole or borrowed power from the titans of orders; if borrowed then maybe when the titans of order were loosing against their brother, they entrusted some of their power to Elune to help defend their world creations from the rogue titan and his burning legion as a desperate last effort. If that was the case though then it would explain why she is an upstart goddess but it wouldn't mean the actions she made were an act of betrayal, or maybe she didn't even betray at all. Though if she stole then that would be act of betrayal even though it was for good.
@@5l0wp0k3 Elune has direct affect on one of the dragon aspects, did you forget that Elune directly interacted with Ysera? The dragon aspects didnt just come up with the idea of empowering world trees out of the blue, someone had to tell the aspects to empower these trees that directly benefited the night elves (who just coincidentally were Elunes favored children).
@@drag0nmancer you should read my 2nd comment
People praise the fuck out of the timeless isle, eventho it was some weird place where all times merged. But this isnt grounded enough? Ugh. Wow fans.
I'm pretty sure the game states why the Winter Queen upset with Elune; the Winter Queen asked Elune for help because of the anima drought, and she thought Elune did nothing. Elune, hearing her sister's cry for help, does not step in when Sylvanas burns the world tree and allows thousands of elves to die so they might solve the drought. However, the souls that died in the burning of Teldrassil, instead of going to Ardenweald, went straight to the Maw because of Zoval. That's why the Winter Queen is upset. She asked Elune for help, but didn't realize she sent help because that help got stolen away mid-transit. I could be wrong, but that's how I interpreted the cinematic.
Now, why they call her a rebel goddess, I haven't a clue.
I can agree with the part where elune rebelled against the system which is why she made the night elves immortal.
That would not be true according to Metzen writing. In the intended Metzen writing, Elune made the night elves able to continue living without aging (could still die if you stubbed your toe and fell and hit your head) but only as a way to get them to promise they would protect the World Tree as it sealed the wound in Azeroth so that maybe it would slowly heal underneath. And indeed, the night elves were told by Elune that if the tree was lost, they would lose that gift of immortality. That isn't a rebellion against life magic......that is a direct application of it to try to keep spreading life through the world trees.
That was a really good sell for Squarespace. Kudos man
Legion: fucked up Titan of Death
Death: fucked up Legion
At this rate blizz "writing" team is going to introduce Zero ones soon.
Where did they order the Shadowlands from? Thrallmart? Home Depot?
As a representative from the roleplaying servers,
*AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA*
Thanks for your time.
I'm not sure what makes her the "upstart goddess" (I argue that it points to an ancient war and not some "betrayal"), but it's not why she's estranged from the WQ. Forgive me if I'm remembering wrong, but the estrangement is solely due to the stupidest misunderstanding ever where the WQ expected Elune to send her souls with the anima drought but neither yet knew about the Arbiter being decommissioned and then continued to blame Elune after finding out despite Elune not being able to circumvent the Arbiter to begin with anyways.
My guess in the ancient war, Elune "corrupted" void servants into the Naaru, thus changing the balance of the ancient war and greatly upsetting the Void Lords and, by extension, Xal'atath. I wouldn't be surprised if she had absorbed/stolen the powers of a Void Lord or an Old God (and even a Light equivalent) to do this considering her almost unique power over light and dark.
@5:11 Is there a way to get a poster or some artwork with the realms on it? love it.
I think it would be interesting if Zovaal was originally a 'good' guy rebelling against what he perceived as an unjust system and that his betrayal and imprisonment by his 'brothers and sisters' drove him mad, leaving us with the Zovaal we're currently dealing with. Because let's face it, the system as it is currently is pretty horrific. Souls are little more than copper-tops/fertilizer used to fuel the powers that be.
I miss the days of wc2,3 and what is now known as WoW classic. The story/ plot was way less complicated, more on point, better written and just way more appealing. Plus: the villains seem to posses an 400IQ even outmaneuvering the Blizz story department
No, Naru are being from the void that got corrupted by light and become Elune servant, not the other way around
Its like we gone from a standard type fantasy Rpg mmo to a space science fiction fantasy single player game with multiplayer aspects.
i love your enthousiasm, but remember this product comes from a company that introduced Arthas in a cinematic and then let's you not find him in the zone he was thrown in, and is he did ( i stopped playing) on that new island, he got dropped into something that wasn't reachable before this xpack started.
WoW has entered the Matrix.
I appreciate this kind of content
I think you put far more thought into the storyline than blizzard does to be honest. It feels like Blizzard just adds a ton of random references so that later, they can just pick one that fits whatever they are writing for that expansion. I wish I could believe there was an actual master plan and thought behind the stories, but they havent shown that to be the case. The only constant has been that each expansion retcons more and more of the lore.
My mind is still blown by the fact that a Titan+ type of character, who has unbelievable power and innumerable hordes of henchmen, can be taken down by a handful of humanoid beings with axes, bows and arrows, and a bit of magic that should be inconsequential to a being of this magnitude. That's like saying that Tony Stark, without his armor being powered up, could stand toe-to-toe with someone massive like Galactus. Hell, even with powered armor, Galactus would still make quick work of him. x50? For a being who devours planets for a living, easy. That's how it seemed like they were portraying the Jailer, and if this description is accurate, I absolutely cannot take their lore seriously anymore.
Wasn’t it explained why the winter queen’s disdain for her sister was because she reached out for help during the drought and got no answer so she felt abandoned.
Does any of this even matter anymore. It's all so horribly told ingame.
I’m hoping for a storyline like Magic Knights Rayearth, where the crime is that Zoval fell in love with Elune, but the entire universe is constructed to keep them apart. So the surprise twist will be when players kill Zoval, and this makes Elune turn into the next big bad, because she loved him back and was hoping we’d contain him instead of killing him…. …it could be that I need to take a break from anime.
I do like the implication that every character in various pantheons we’ve seen has a counter-part in a different plane, though it really makes you wonder what the void’s pantheons might resemble.
Why would "life" prototypes be in Zerith "Death". Nothing about this makes sense.
Thanks for the video
What the hell happened. Where’s orcs invading, Jaina bridging the factions, thrall doing shaman stuff, this game has become a Korean Manga at this point. Unless you’ve watched all 600 episodes it won’t make any sense, and even if it did the power scaling is absurd and everything that mattered becomes irrelevant
Except I have seen and read and watched everything wow.... and it still doesn't make sense the crap that Danuser is writing. The Metzen original stuff makes sense... but this Danuser kidnapping does not.
The lore of shadowlands comes straight from DnD’s Astral Planes and I love it
If I can say anything about SL : It was a lot of set ups that only got paid in more set-ups