Very intresting as always in Britian we are excelent at ideas and developing projects but totally let down by management stupid decisions and bean counters who are inexplicably allowed to make decisions on what will and will not sell. Like they would know?
Bit of an oversimplification Certainly some poor management but in fairness the UK bike market contracted massively in the 60s AMC went from healthy profits to a massive deficit in one year Hindsight is a wonderful thing but when the market collapses and you don’t have a crystal ball it’s not so easy. A huge problem for the UK bike industry was always attracting investment Companies could approach financial institutions but securing finance for re- tooling or expansion etc was rarely forthcoming Hence the team Cinderella industry
What an interesting vidio, thanks for making it. I used to have all the advertising info on the Bandit & Fury, because I was/am a big Triumph fan, only living a mile or so from the factory. I even went and placed an order on a Bandit; I was gutted when it got dropped. I ended up getting a T100c Trophy. Although now in NZ and 70yrs old, I'm still riding a Triumph, a T100r Daytona. I used to go to Vale Onslow motorcycles in Birmingham to look at the one they had. I had heard of, or even seen, some of these concept bikes, but never knew their history. (Taken from another post but true for me too). Happy and sad memories
Part of the problem was the machinery the bikes were built with. Worn out lathes that the operator had learnt to compensate for. The problem, when they retired their replacements did not know the lathes idiosyncrasies.
@@borderlands6606 Straight from school at age 15 I worked in a factory in 1963 and none of the lathes or other machines were post war except for three automatic "Index" lathes which spent their lives making nuts and bolts. I worked a capstan lathe that was made in the 1920s. We were never told what we were making and many of the guages were .... out of guage.
There were an awful lot of British machine tools too German engineering in general is somewhat overrated and it’s often forgotten how many German manufacturers went bust during the 60s too
Machine tools have no bearing on these prototypes at all really But the do speak of the greater problems of poor finances within the industry Motorcycles were always seen as a Cinderella industry especially in the UK and so unlike the car I industry received fairy minimal support throughout their history Remember Guzzi and Ducati were nationalised in the 60s because of their perceived national importance Harley was propped up got years. Most of 5he bikes featured could have worked but would need development and that requires money that was never forthcoming. For the UK industry finding investment was always a huge challenge
I recall a special that was seen at shows many years ago - an square four engine in a hunter frame that had been heavily modified to fit. The result was an insight into what a swing arm Squariel might have looked like had the factory continued production.
Thanks for an interesting selection of machines. I was lucky enough to meet former Norton engineer John Favill at the UK National H.O.G. rally in 1993. By then he worked for H-D. He had come out for a wander round the camp site, to look at the bikes there. After he introduced himself, I accompanied him on his walkabout and pointed out example of typical UK owner customisations to improve suspension, braking and performance. I suspect he would have reported back to H-D and emphasised the value of product improvements in the areas discussed with myself and others.
@@bikerdood1100 My impression was that JF was very much his own man and mot just another H-D company man. I think I read somewhere that he returned to the UK (and the Wolverhampton area?) when he retired from H-D.
Excellent, knowledgeable commentary. I've visited the NEC motorcycle museum, and wondered about the stories behind one or two of these machines... We certainly 'left the door open' for the Nips to copy what we'd already designed, and flood the world with their later versions.. 😒
Well yeh Japanese though They are very good engineers in their own right and deserve our respect After all their multis V4s Wings demonstrate a huge amount of original thinking
Fascinating video! Sad to see the missed opportunities in building a competitive British bike and the many failings in the British motorcycle industry.
Who cares about those it’s not about Japanese bikes 🤷🏼 Also most of these were in developed many years before so hardly relevant Lest not forget some of the bikes listed Not exactly nimble 😂😂
Very interesting, thank you. I had never seen the Ariel or Norton before. Some missed opportunities there, surely. My dear old Dad always said “engineers see the future, accountants only see the past” I think that is at least part of the reason these never got off the ground. 😔
Awesome bikes. My two favorites are the Triumph inline 4 and the Wulf. Gotta love those 2 stroke oil burners. They sound great. Ride safe guys and take care. Cheers
Great video! I’m sure there was one of those BSA Bandits on display in a bike shop in Newmarket, Auckland, New Zealand in the 1970’s. It might have been a static model. That Arial was a fascinating bike but I really liked the look of that Wulf 500. If you squint at it you can see the Commando lines. Things that might have been but for timing and money. 👍🏻
Really interesting video. I remember seeing the BSA/Triumph 350s at the big motorcycle show in California in the late-1960s ('68 or' 69, I can't remember which). I was impressed, except fpor the peculiar white frames. Then I talked to one of he guys at Cycle World who'd ridden the bikes and said they were bloody awful and woefully "raw", IE not ready for sale. They DID make a major contribution to BSA/Triumph...just in the wrong direction!
Went to a talk on the Wulf at the engineering society from two of the engineers who had worked on the project..,they suggested that there was a government grant fund that had being impinged on to help support the Norton Challenger..,and were very unhappy about it...One notable remark that did come out was upper cylinder lubrication had to be assisted by drillings to ensure that ware was not incurred..,and as I perceived it there was an element of 2 stroke like oil consumption...The had bench marked it to a 400 cc Kwaka unit and said it was on par...
The challenger might have seemed the safe better at the time, with Cosworth behind the project but from what I can gather about the engine from an article written by Peter Williams a few years ago it was not a great price of design at all, he noted how heavy the bottom end was I guess designing the greatest F1 engine ever isn’t the same as building something suitable for a motorcycle. Certainly judging from his thoughts on the engine it would seem the wolf may well have been the way to go
Ditto most later day two strokes, there is no perfect engineering solution ultimately. Despite the 20% heavier piston the Wulf still had 40 odd horses and tested performance is in the ball park of 500s of the day despite minimal development when tested at MIRA
The Wulf was tested at MIRA and it’s performance was in the ball park by 70s 500 standards despite a 20% heavier piston Not really fair to describe all their designs as exotic now is it OHC royal Enfield 175 ?
Except of course, they don’t. On road bikes the difference between two strokes and four strokes diminished somewhat above 250cc, if you ignore the rather dishonest claims made by Kawasaki for their triples. Suzukis Gt 500 twin claimed 44hp very similar to the Wulf and less than some four stroke twins. Similarly Yamaha’s sporty Rd 400 was slower through the 1/4 mile than the OHV Guzzi V50 and not the sporty model either and that’s as tested by superbike magazine in the 70s. Two strokes are more efficient at smaller capacities no doubt but they simply don’t scale up on the road. Different in GPs of course but that’s pretty meaningless on the road
Back in approx '75 Bike mag did an article on British bikes which never made production. Memory may let me down,but i recall a 5 cylinder bsa,a triumph 250 triple and the rotory. I wonder is that issue still available? Great video and how do i stop my 850 wet sumping?!
It was part of Doug Hele’s modula concept The management went with Turners 350 instead, which explains much of his distain for the project Wet sumping can be stopped in a number of ways Or reduced at least even modest Harleys wet sump Some fit a tap which can lead to disastrous results if you forget about it Others an anti wet sump valve which helps but isn’t perfect I lead my bike the the sump plug loose and let it fail through into a jug then tighten it with a spanner I leave next to the bike
But don’t ask Harley Italian bikes tend to go for wet sump which in many ways proves not a thing P&M always cast their oil in the castings like Enfield and wet sump was very common during the 30s. Wet sump does have its disadvantages after all Engine height , oil capacity and cooling And wet sumping is really only a problem these days in the 50s with mono grade oils, pumps that were new and more importantly the bikes were used daily wet sumping wasn’t an issue. It’s an artefact of modern biking when bikes are used much less often and not a fault of design
@@bikerdood1100 when i had my 750 roadster i used it for work daily,but 850 is rarely used. Have now bought sump can with spout where i drain out approx 1Lt and pour back into tank. Andover warned me about electric valves,so will give that a miss. This mk 3 may not be as fast as 750 but at least there are more than two positions on throttle-wide open and shut!
Britishbike industry was let down terribly by lack of investment in machine tools . The designers had the designs but the lack of investment meant they could not be built reliably.
The phrase often used is Cinderella industry The financial system and the government in the Uk didn’t put any import in the motorcycle industry Historically this was always the case and a situation not helped by the reputation of motorcyclists in the mid 60s
There are so many things that doomed the once mighty British bike industry. A lack of development money, an arcane management structure, labor troubles, lack of quality controls and increased foreign competition all played a part in the industry downfall but lack of ideas was not one of them.
Definitely not Velocette tried all sorts of things but non really paid off The contraction of the market was a huge problem to Velocette and Ariel who didn’t have a huge foreign market. In truth rather like British aviation companies many were just plain too small and without the kind of financial backing required to keep up
@@bikerdood1100 It always seemed to me that Velocette tried some very innovative designs without regard to market or at least a misunderstanding of the market. The Velocette LE was an innovative design built to provide cheap transportation for the working class when in fact the reasonably priced car market was destroying this market segment. Velocette built some advanced bikes with goofy looks. It's in this way that British bike makers never really understood the American market. and maybe, more importantly, didn't want to. You bring up an interesting point. Was the British aviation industry like the bike industry? All I know is, like the bike makers, the aviation industry kept merging until they were gone.
In truth most smaller British companies were very similar to Italian companies selling to the home market with similar problems when the bike market shrank Guzzi managed to release the V-Twins at the right time but had been in development since 57
The worst part was the arrogance of underestimating the Japanese. They will never build a proper bike, but they did. Even when Honda started racing (and winning) they ignored them.
@@wooisdebaanhoof Yep, Harley-Davidson did this too. There was a fair amount to xenophobia to go around in the industry. It's funny but Honda was taking their design ideas from NSU, one of the most successful motorcycle builders of that era.
The two, last-Gasp bikes you mentioned being developed, the triumph bandit and bsa fury obviouisly hadn't seen the honda CB450 DOHC twin (black bomber), from earlier in 1966 which at the time of release frightened anyone on a British 650 twin.
The 350 capacity was chosen in response to high demand for that specific capacity in the US so was not in anyway in direct competition with the 450. Of course the black bomber had issues of its own with its problematic top end It’s a bike pretty much never seen in the UK these days for that very reason. Honda and their valve trains 😂
When Meriden shut down, a mate of mine went to bid on some machine tools that were being auctioned off. He went to check out a lathe and found that it was utterly worn out, with play in all areas. These machine tools were up until recently, making parts for Triumphs! We really were our own worst enemy!
The big problem was always investment Especially during the CO-OP phase when they excisted hand to mouth. Attracting investment in the motorcycle industry was always a problem as lord Hesketh would soon find
I'm surprised you didn't mention the Scott triple, next to the Norton P 800 in your video. Still until now, I had never known about the Wolf 500, Ariel 4, or Norton P 800.
So sad today no one can purchase a (REAL) new British bike, just names borrowed to mislead the great nostalgic unknowables. The real sounds, designs, paintwork and chrome were we really intimidated by that Honda 450 bomber, I think more like governments that saw no future in motorcycles businesses that just wanted profits and the less said about the workforce the better. I guess we got what we deserved. Thank you for the video a glimpse of how things could’ve been. Bit like watching an episode of bull’s-eye the darts program see what you could’ve won.😮
Very much the case in the UK In Italy they Nationalised here left to die To be fair however You can purchase a real Brit bike I’d have to say CCM is truly British and to be fair the Norton may be Indian owned today but the factory is in the midlands and build quality is a long way from the previous iteration and is of a very high standard. Of the others RE doesn’t pretend to be British The least said about Triumph in this regard the better, the way they try to pass their bikes off as British strikes me as plain dishonest
@@bikerdood1100 fair point about CCM although you can always be assured of their next limited limited limited edition😏 While those Indian owed Norton’s are gorgeous, although to purchase one I’ll have to sell my bikes, my car and possibly the wife 😭 not to mention the dog
Vertically. We used to be so excited about that machine back in 1971 - and I still think it looks wonderful today, the only genuinely new bike from the 'Power Set' range.
Vertically but horizontal assembly is nor the guarantee of oil tightness that some think and indeed some modern Japanese bikes use vertically split cases today
Yes, vertically split crankcases would seem to be a route to better oil-tightness but, as you point out, it ain't necessarily so. I've operated an NTV 650, a C90 and a current Royal Enfield 350 - all vertically split and with no oil-leaks!! More study needed!
Not just bikes,the car industry was equally as bad,raking off the profits in the golden years whilst plowing nowhere near enough money into R&D or looking east and even when they did they drew the wrong conclusions. The Japanese taught the UK a serious lesson on how to make both bikes and cars in a very short time.The UK industries didn't have the business nous to to realise what was happening to their market share,one only need look at the genius of the Honda Cub both design and marketing to see what was happening as the UK business fat cats sat on their fat backsides and did nothing but poke fun at the future leader in transport.The rest as they say is history..... PS,it's still evident in business today,mores the pity.
Oh that’s not completely accurate Most Uk companies were small , too small and sol£ to the Uk market predominantly When the shift to cars occurred things went south Remember in the 50s bikes outnumbered cars on British roads Now they make up 1% After 1960 bike sales all but collapsed in the UK
@@bikerdood1100 The Triumph/BSA group were the auther of their own demise,they had a huge market in USA which they squandered by not investing in production and R&D this became apparent during the '60s when the Japanese big four got on the scene "you meet the nicest people on Honda" was the strapline,whereas the UK bike industry was still dealing on "there's nothing a motorcyclist likes better than tinkering with his bike at the Weekend" .The Japanese bike ran and ran without the tinkering and it didn'ttake long for the customer to realise it! A story,my brother bought a new 1966 Honda 50,he rode and abused that bike for 6 or 7 years as he commuted to work without doing a thing to it in '72or'73 with the bike having covered approx 10k miles IIRC,he asked me to take a look at it for him as the clutch was slipping,so I offered to service it. When he brought it round to my place I couldn't believe the state of it,he'd never washed or cleaned it,bearing in mind two miles of his 10mile each way commute was on a cinder track,I asked when it was last serviced,he simply said "never"! I washedit, serviced it,changed the oil cleaning the filter,brushed most of the muck out of the air filter ,adjusted the clutch and brakes and other than a bald rear tyre some scratches to the plastics,rust spots on the rims and corrosion on the engine casings it was as good as new. It's that kind of abused reliability UK manufacturers only dreamed of.
The Dockers can’t be given sole blame, they do make a convenient patsy but it was far more complicated than that BSA simply has their eggs in far too many baskets in the end and the management of the late 60s made some terrible Choices and were more interested in other parts of the company
The 74 year old Edward Turner was given the task of designing this bike despite BSA having arguably two of the best designers in the world, Doug Hele and Bert Hopwood. Turner was a geneus at his best but most of his work was sadly lacking. Often suffering from simply problems that could and should have been rectified, but due to his nature of always believing in been right and everyone else been wrong, many a good bike never reached it's full potential. However this bike was so badly designed from the start that even the best efforts of Hopwood and Hele could not sort it out, both Hopwood and Hele wanted to scrap Turners design and start again, but as usual at BSA during this period the higher management knew best and the bike never officially went on sale. Shame really because a simple adjustment with the bore and stroke would have given BSA not only a 350 but also a 250 bike for very little additional outlay
The red reason why the British motorcycle industry collapsed was nothing to do with either the companies themselves or the Japanese, it was to do with the environment they had to operate in. A product that was seen at the time to dangerous noisy and outdated and ridden by hooligans, that was been out sold 20/1 by the car. The government didn't help with heavy purchase tax that effectively limited the price any manufactur could realistically ask for their bikes and then there was our world leading banking industry who had and still have zero interest in offering sensible finance to industry. Compare this to Japan with their pro industry government and banking industry but above all else a massive domestic and local market for motorcycles. But always lazy and convenient to just blame the Japanese
you must like visiting DK motorcycles! you do quite a bit of filming there, You could do a video on the best or worst (popular) import bikes to the uk, bikes not officially imported to the uk, from usually usa or japan
The list of sharp prototypes from the British designers is long and inspiring, but, sadly, the human imagination is rather slow to open its pockets... horses and water spring very much to mind.....
I heard a story about a Triumph Quadrant from a guy in Surrey I bought a commando off of not sure how true it was. He said a guy he knew bought one of the last Tridents made it seized up when he was riding it causing him severe injuries. Once he recovered from his injuries he tried to get a replacement bike but there were none but Triumph gave him a prototype Quadrant with a selection of bodywork options as compensation. Has anyone else heard this story or know anything about it.
Sobering to reflect that,even when the wolf was at the door,for the domestic industry,the finest engineering minds continued to produce such fascinating machines as this. What might have been indeed...
@@bikerdood1100 I so was disappointed, I purchased a Kawasaki A1 Samurai instead and that turned out to be one of my favourite bikes that I have owned 🙂
@@bikerdood1100 Odd isn't it? The village just along the coast from Ilfracombe - Hele - is pronounced 'Heal'. The vagueries of the English language, eh? LOL
I wonder how that could have been achieved given Broughs limited production facilities. Who would have built a production version of the engine and wouldn’t have been too expensive to sell 🤔
IMO the Wulf had the most production potential. The other concepts were just too difficult to manufacture with the outdated machinery they had available.
I'm missing the "Bonneville Triple", which essentially was a T140 with a Trident engine and a modern appearance for the time. I'm sure that this platform would have been a contender to the Japanese.
Well it’s actually in the video next to the quadrant I think It’ll have to wait for another time, it’s now technically that interesting really and I didn’t want to make a video about Triumph prototypes
Black bomber was a 450 It was designed to compete within the CB 350 which was an important beginner class in the states at the time, so in truth it was not intended to take on the black bomber at all. The 350 capacity was chosen very specifically
Of course Lord and Lady Docker...Owners of BSA...had plenty of time and money to spend on their lavish motor yatch and lifestyle...swanning around the Mediterranean most summers.....and obviously little interest in motorcycles.....!!..How many on the Board of Directors were avid motorcyclists ...???..Meanwhile Japanese manufacturers were growing fast...!!!!
Forgot the Japanese it’s way before then In general the impression is quite wrong however Most British bike companies were owned and run by enthusiasts and were generally small selling mainly to the home market Think velocette rather than BSA which was by Britsh standards The idea that they ignored the Japanese is also on the whole quite wrong The British industry was all but gone by the time the Japanese arrived because the bike market in the UK collapsed and indeed in many other European countries too Japanese companies didn’t get rich selling big bikes to Britain this is quite wrong But selling millions of small bikes in Asia. The British bike market is puny by comparison We went from out numbering cars in the 50s to 1% of all road users today. That is market collapse
seen these before , the engine looks very italian MV or Gilera ? perhaps. Am talking about TriBsa ,s. Your narrative pertaining to the Ariel four draws a similarity to the BMW K series bikes , am sure reading at the time that BMW used adapted Peugeot engines for these bikes.
@@bikerdood1100 well I beg to differ, there is something distinctly different about Italian bikes.But actually I was just editing that comment re- the BMW k engines
@@jezztechstrange retort ? Don’t believe BMW copied the Ariel or were aware of it Horizontal engines were a BWM thing in the early 80s if you recall the low line Brabham BMW in F1
Shame the 4 cylinder Triumphs didn't get the funding & R&D they needed as with the onslaught of Japanese machines things could have been very different. Be nice to see these machines though where was the video footage taken?
Some was shot at a museum others at shows I’m not convinced a multi was the was to go Other European companies avoided taking the Japanese head on. A more advanced twin may have been better, a sort of British Ducati
@@bikerdood1100 Yes, with hindsight the salvation of the Triumph name is the triple motor. As a mid 70's bike mad teen, BMW were for old beardy men, Ducati & Guzzi etc for men with an Italian fetish. NVT promised much & failed. So Japan it was for our cash & hp finance deals.
Say what you like about the German and Italian manufacturers They survived The triple didn’t actually sell that well 25,000 or so. Not terrible but the twins sold better. For me the European side stepping and feedback into a niche market was the way to go for smaller companies Benelli tried the head on approach with their 4s with limited success A 900 triple may have done rarely well but I have a feeling a light, nimble twin with an advanced engine would likely have done rather better against the poor handling bloated Japanese 4s of the late 70s early 80s. Italian bikes did very well doing just that and having owned a few 70s Italian bikes they are bloody good
Nice video. However, you missed the Royal Enfield Series 3- 810cc Interceptor. RE ran out of money and time but Hitchcock's has a running example. Shoulda, coulda, woulda.
I missed a few 5 bikes not 15 after all What about the OHC 175 RE What would be the point in putting everything into a single video ? It’s more accurate to say I didn’t mention them this time Besides why talk about what’s not in a video why not what’s actually in it My last video was about a tour of France but no one mentioned Belgium in the comments 😂😂😂😂
True but to be fair it was a proof of concept and the final frame was Very different As for using the tank as stressed member well they did that on the 5ta too Triumph 🙄😂
Think you will find it’s old fats with old ideas who do that There’s always been people watching the money In the case of these bikes by the 60s there was no money to count In reality a successful company needs so called bean counters wether we like em or not
Bull shit In a word Well 2 😂😂 Thanks for obviously learned comment Gave us a laugh at least 😂😂🙄 Love in input if a true expert like yourself 😂😂😂😂 I wonder how introducing a 750 made a 350 irrelevant Hilarious 😂😂😂 I’d stick to bloody keyboards mate 😂😂😂😂🙄🙄
@@bikerdood1100well, that is a shock, insulted for making a comment. I was referring to the fact that the fours were the future like the 350 and 400 fours. I am very disappointed at your reply as I really enjoyed the channel.
If you enjoy my channel why make a comment suggesting so little understanding of history which is frankly disappointing. I deal with history on my channel The idea that everything suddenly changed with the 750 Honda is pure pub talk Seriously do some reading around this I’ve talked around this a great deal I can’t do with gross over simplification Additionally if I’m making a video about British bikes why mention Honda Nobody cares, talk about Honda in a video about Honda 🙄 The 750 Honda did not kill the British industry it simply wasn’t like that It’s far far more complicated than Honda released the cb750, the whole point of my channel is too move away from this kind of sound bite view of history and hopefully to broaden understanding Seems like I’m not succeeding
@@bikerdood1100fair play mate, I've read through a few of your snotty replies to your viewer's comments. You can stick your channel up your arse, I certainly won't be liking, subscribing or recommending. Way to go to not build a subscriber base.
The British could have started with making a - decent quality bikes and not, as also by that time, the Lousy Production Quality in cars, which mostly fell apart before even reaching the road!!! It took German and Japanese ownership to produce a reasonable product in GB.
Massive over simplification If you think back to the 70s Japanese cars had lots of gadgets but even more rust German ownership ruined River coolest said there the better Ford money improved Jaguar by the by
@@bikerdood1100 I was the owner of a bought from new, 1966 BMC Mini. It became my first car, but also the only and last English Car!! It was absurdly awful produced, water came in from the corners of the frontscreen, the sliding windows in the doors, and paint peeled of round the outside hinges, from a faulty production method! I had to bend my - doorframes in, with a knee between the body, to make them meet the rubber sealing round the doors. Don't drive too close to a car in front during rain, as the engine will cut them, from the water spray. The wipers stopped at any place when cut, and the seats had an absurd motion when being moved forward or backwards, and only three holes as actual adjustment. The heater was either on or off, just to mention a few points. No syncromesh in first gear of course! And the long gear-selector in the front of the bottom, seems not to be connected to the gears? It wasn't very fast but that wasn't that special by then, and I gave it a tuned 1275cc engine with a proper gear box and stick in the bottom! It was more fun then.
Well this is a Motorcycle channel so interest in answering is minimal However The mini was a small car introduced in 1959, so is a 50s product to complete with other small cars such as the VW Beatle, Fiat 500 and Citroen 2cv You may note the others used air cooled engines two having the ending in lest face it the wrong place 😂 also many small cars of the period, or not so small did not have synchro on first gear so criticising if for is transmission and engine power is more than a little disingenuous How many won the Mote Carlo Rally 🤔 But enough of crappy cars this is supposed to be a motorcycle channel I’ve owned a few British bikes of the 50s and 60s and found the build quality on the whole pretty good, chrome and paint being somewhat better than the rapid rust Japanese bikes of my acquaintance. Instead of disregarding the British industry I would suggest some light reading on its history May help to dispel a little of your anti British bias 😂😂
@@bikerdood1100 The Fiat 600 also in the Abarth version was water cooled, but I admit they were old models and outdated by then and not at all as advanced as the Mini. And I also think to remember that the Mini never made an actual surplus from the costs of production. But that isn't an excuse for making a lousy job, when it hardly cost more to make a finished product!
The out dated augmented by then for the Fiat does not hold water at all The 500 in its classic form was introduced in 1957 only 2 years before the mini at the time BMW was still making bubble cars Now that’s are awful But why am I discussing cars this is cars This’s is a bike channel and have 0 interest I ton boxes 😂😂 Do try to focus and bikes and do a little reading as suggested previously 😂😂 I don’t care about cars 😂😂😂😂😂😂 Go to Hubnut His channel is very good and about tin boxes
![[MV] A leap of faith...ความเชื่อใจครั้งสุดท้าย (From "Petrichor the series")](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U1piZH2CNXA/mqdefault.jpg)
Always amazed at the depth of knowledge and amount of research from the 'Dood'. Another fine installment. Respect to you, sir....
Oh I just read stuff all over
Very intresting as always in Britian we are excelent at ideas and developing projects but totally let down by management stupid decisions and bean counters who are inexplicably allowed to make decisions on what will and will not sell. Like they would know?
Bit of an oversimplification
Certainly some poor management but in fairness the UK bike market contracted massively in the 60s
AMC went from healthy profits to a massive deficit in one year
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but when the market collapses and you don’t have a crystal ball it’s not so easy.
A huge problem for the UK bike industry was always attracting investment
Companies could approach financial institutions but securing finance for re- tooling or expansion etc was rarely forthcoming
Hence the team Cinderella industry
What an interesting vidio, thanks for making it.
I used to have all the advertising info on the Bandit & Fury, because I was/am
a big Triumph fan, only living a mile or so from the factory. I even went and placed
an order on a Bandit; I was gutted when it got dropped.
I ended up getting a T100c Trophy. Although now in NZ and 70yrs old, I'm still riding
a Triumph, a T100r Daytona.
I used to go to Vale Onslow motorcycles in Birmingham to look at the one they had.
I had heard of, or even seen, some of these concept bikes, but never knew their history. (Taken from another post but true for me too).
Happy and sad memories
Have been to Vale Onslow myself some years ago
They have now moved premises
I always remember Richard in the spares dept, but I left the UK over 30 Yrs ago.
It was the place to go for British spares 😃.
Happy memories.
Great iur in NZ best wishes from lower hutt!
They can't have been really serious.....Otherwise they would have named them BSA Bandit & Triumph Fury!
I thank you for introducing us to these rare machines. 🏍
That’s the idea
Show something new
Thanks for this video. I had heard of, or even seen, some of these concept bikes, but never knew their history. Keep up the great videos.
Can’t get too much information on some to be honest
Part of the problem was the machinery the bikes were built with. Worn out lathes that the operator had learnt to compensate for. The problem, when they retired their replacements did not know the lathes idiosyncrasies.
I once briefly operated a lathe for a job. It was German and built in the 19th century. Not unusual for British engineering in the 1970s.
@@borderlands6606 Straight from school at age 15 I worked in a factory in 1963 and none of the lathes or other machines were post war except for three automatic "Index" lathes which spent their lives making nuts and bolts. I worked a capstan lathe that was made in the 1920s. We were never told what we were making and many of the guages were .... out of guage.
There were an awful lot of British machine tools too
German engineering in general is somewhat overrated and it’s often forgotten how many German manufacturers went bust during the 60s too
Machine tools have no bearing on these prototypes at all really
But the do speak of the greater problems of poor finances within the industry
Motorcycles were always seen as a Cinderella industry especially in the UK and so unlike the car I industry received fairy minimal support throughout their history
Remember Guzzi and Ducati were nationalised in the 60s because of their perceived national importance
Harley was propped up got years.
Most of 5he bikes featured could have worked but would need development and that requires money that was never forthcoming. For the UK industry finding investment was always a huge challenge
@@bikerdood1100 those worn out lathes also made the prototypes.
I didn’t know about the Ariel flat four. An interesting might have been.
Certainly different but a victim of underfunding unfortunately
Yeah, a Brit Gold Wing!
I recall a special that was seen at shows many years ago - an square four engine in a hunter frame that had been heavily modified to fit. The result was an insight into what a swing arm Squariel might have looked like had the factory continued production.
Fascinating, thank you again for a wonderfully researched and presented show.
Thanks
Glad you enjoyed it
That was thoroughly enjoyable and very well presented.
Thank you.
Thanks further feedback
Much appreciated
Thanks for an interesting selection of machines.
I was lucky enough to meet former Norton engineer John Favill at the UK National H.O.G. rally in 1993. By then he worked for H-D. He had come out for a wander round the camp site, to look at the bikes there. After he introduced himself, I accompanied him on his walkabout and pointed out example of typical UK owner customisations to improve suspension, braking and performance. I suspect he would have reported back to H-D and emphasised the value of product improvements in the areas discussed with myself and others.
He was soon you 😂
@@bikerdood1100 My impression was that JF was very much his own man and mot just another H-D company man.
I think I read somewhere that he returned to the UK (and the Wolverhampton area?) when he retired from H-D.
Excellent, knowledgeable commentary. I've visited the NEC motorcycle museum, and wondered about the stories behind one or two of these machines...
We certainly 'left the door open' for the Nips to copy what we'd already designed, and flood the world with their later versions..
😒
Well yeh
Japanese though
They are very good engineers in their own right and deserve our respect
After all their multis V4s Wings demonstrate a huge amount of original thinking
The moment the mechanics started mounting exhaust pipes 5 and 6 under the Honda RC166 they probably knew the game was over.
Fascinating video! Sad to see the missed opportunities in building a competitive British bike and the many failings in the British motorcycle industry.
Can’t develop things without cash
Fascinating video thank you, you see these concepts and then think of a cb750 sohc/ rd400/gt500/kh400 amongst many others and well...........
Who cares about those it’s not about Japanese bikes 🤷🏼
Also most of these were in developed many years before so hardly relevant
Lest not forget some of the bikes listed
Not exactly nimble 😂😂
Very interesting, thank you.
I had never seen the Ariel or Norton before. Some missed opportunities there, surely.
My dear old Dad always said “engineers see the future, accountants only see the past”
I think that is at least part of the reason these never got off the ground. 😔
How very true
Awesome bikes. My two favorites are the Triumph inline 4 and the Wulf. Gotta love those 2 stroke oil burners. They sound great. Ride safe guys and take care. Cheers
They are interesting
Great video! I’m sure there was one of those BSA Bandits on display in a bike shop in Newmarket, Auckland, New Zealand in the 1970’s. It might have been a static model. That Arial was a fascinating bike but I really liked the look of that Wulf 500. If you squint at it you can see the Commando lines. Things that might have been but for timing and money. 👍🏻
True I think the Wulf used a Commando tank
Really interesting video. I remember seeing the BSA/Triumph 350s at the big motorcycle show in California in the late-1960s ('68 or' 69, I can't remember which). I was impressed, except fpor the peculiar white frames. Then I talked to one of he guys at Cycle World who'd ridden the bikes and said they were bloody awful and woefully "raw", IE not ready for sale. They DID make a major contribution to BSA/Triumph...just in the wrong direction!
There is a strange story behind the white frames
They didn’t last long
Went to a talk on the Wulf at the engineering society from two of the engineers who had worked on the project..,they suggested that there was a government grant fund that had being impinged on to help support the Norton Challenger..,and were very unhappy about it...One notable remark that did come out was upper cylinder lubrication had to be assisted by drillings to ensure that ware was not incurred..,and as I perceived it there was an element of 2 stroke like oil consumption...The had bench marked it to a 400 cc Kwaka unit and said it was on par...
The challenger might have seemed the safe better at the time, with Cosworth behind the project but from what I can gather about the engine from an article written by Peter Williams a few years ago it was not a great price of design at all, he noted how heavy the bottom end was
I guess designing the greatest F1 engine ever isn’t the same as building something suitable for a motorcycle. Certainly judging from his thoughts on the engine it would seem the wolf may well have been the way to go
Back in the day, the prospect of the Wulf really excited me...... Thank you for these films....
It’s a fascinating concept I think
The Wulf is an interesting machine. As a lover of 2 stroke engines i find them fascinating. The Norton is a thing of beauty.
Shame really possibly the best concept in the video
Ditto most later day two strokes, there is no perfect engineering solution ultimately. Despite the 20% heavier piston the Wulf still had 40 odd horses and tested performance is in the ball park of 500s of the day despite minimal development when tested at MIRA
The Wulf was tested at MIRA and it’s performance was in the ball park by 70s 500 standards despite a 20% heavier piston
Not really fair to describe all their designs as exotic now is it
OHC royal Enfield 175 ?
Except of course, they don’t. On road bikes the difference between two strokes and four strokes diminished somewhat above 250cc, if you ignore the rather dishonest claims made by Kawasaki for their triples.
Suzukis Gt 500 twin claimed 44hp very similar to the Wulf and less than some four stroke twins.
Similarly Yamaha’s sporty Rd 400 was slower through the 1/4 mile than the OHV Guzzi V50 and not the sporty model either and that’s as tested by superbike magazine in the 70s.
Two strokes are more efficient at smaller capacities no doubt but they simply don’t scale up on the road. Different in GPs of course but that’s pretty meaningless on the road
Thers a BSA fury just down the road in Devon from where I live , interesting machine 👍
Very true a pity really
Back in approx '75 Bike mag did an article on British bikes which never made production. Memory may let me down,but i recall a 5 cylinder bsa,a triumph 250 triple and the rotory. I wonder is that issue still available? Great video and how do i stop my 850 wet sumping?!
It was part of Doug Hele’s modula concept
The management went with Turners 350 instead, which explains much of his distain for the project
Wet sumping can be stopped in a number of ways
Or reduced at least even modest Harleys wet sump
Some fit a tap which can lead to disastrous results if you forget about it
Others an anti wet sump valve which helps but isn’t perfect
I lead my bike the the sump plug loose and let it fail through into a jug then tighten it with a spanner I leave next to the bike
But don’t ask Harley
Italian bikes tend to go for wet sump which in many ways proves not a thing P&M always cast their oil in the castings like Enfield and wet sump was very common during the 30s. Wet sump does have its disadvantages after all
Engine height , oil capacity and cooling
And wet sumping is really only a problem these days in the 50s with mono grade oils, pumps that were new and more importantly the bikes were used daily wet sumping wasn’t an issue. It’s an artefact of modern biking when bikes are used much less often and not a fault of design
@@bikerdood1100 when i had my 750 roadster i used it for work daily,but 850 is rarely used. Have now bought sump can with spout where i drain out approx 1Lt and pour back into tank. Andover warned me about electric valves,so will give that a miss. This mk 3 may not be as fast as 750 but at least there are more than two positions on throttle-wide open and shut!
Britishbike industry was let down terribly by lack of investment in machine tools .
The designers had the designs but the lack of investment meant they could not be built reliably.
The phrase often used is Cinderella industry
The financial system and the government in the Uk didn’t put any import in the motorcycle industry
Historically this was always the case and a situation not helped by the reputation of motorcyclists in the mid 60s
There are so many things that doomed the once mighty British bike industry. A lack of development money, an arcane management structure, labor troubles, lack of quality controls and increased foreign competition all played a part in the industry downfall but lack of ideas was not one of them.
Definitely not
Velocette tried all sorts of things but non really paid off
The contraction of the market was a huge problem to Velocette and Ariel who didn’t have a huge foreign market. In truth rather like British aviation companies many were just plain too small and without the kind of financial backing required to keep up
@@bikerdood1100 It always seemed to me that Velocette tried some very innovative designs without regard to market or at least a misunderstanding of the market. The Velocette LE was an innovative design built to provide cheap transportation for the working class when in fact the reasonably priced car market was destroying this market segment. Velocette built some advanced bikes with goofy looks. It's in this way that British bike makers never really understood the American market. and maybe, more importantly, didn't want to. You bring up an interesting point. Was the British aviation industry like the bike industry? All I know is, like the bike makers, the aviation industry kept merging until they were gone.
In truth most smaller British companies were very similar to Italian companies selling to the home market with similar problems when the bike market shrank
Guzzi managed to release the V-Twins at the right time but had been in development since 57
The worst part was the arrogance of underestimating the Japanese. They will never build a proper bike, but they did. Even when Honda started racing (and winning) they ignored them.
@@wooisdebaanhoof Yep, Harley-Davidson did this too. There was a fair amount to xenophobia to go around in the industry. It's funny but Honda was taking their design ideas from NSU, one of the most successful motorcycle builders of that era.
The two, last-Gasp bikes you mentioned being developed, the triumph bandit and bsa fury obviouisly hadn't seen the honda CB450 DOHC twin (black bomber), from earlier in 1966 which at the time of release frightened anyone on a British 650 twin.
The 350 capacity was chosen in response to high demand for that specific capacity in the US so was not in anyway in direct competition with the 450.
Of course the black bomber had issues of its own with its problematic top end
It’s a bike pretty much never seen in the UK these days for that very reason.
Honda and their valve trains 😂
When Meriden shut down, a mate of mine went to bid on some machine tools that were being auctioned off. He went to check out a lathe and found that it was utterly worn out, with play in all areas. These machine tools were up until recently, making parts for Triumphs! We really were our own worst enemy!
The big problem was always investment
Especially during the CO-OP phase when they excisted hand to mouth.
Attracting investment in the motorcycle industry was always a problem as lord Hesketh would soon find
I'm surprised you didn't mention the Scott triple, next to the Norton P 800 in your video. Still until now, I had never known about the Wolf 500, Ariel 4, or Norton P 800.
Next time perhaps
As you haven’t heard of some of the others
Isn’t that actually better though 😂
@@bikerdood1100 when you're right, you're right. 👍🏻
So sad today no one can purchase a (REAL) new British bike, just names borrowed to mislead the great nostalgic unknowables.
The real sounds, designs, paintwork and chrome were we really intimidated by that Honda 450 bomber, I think more like governments that saw no future in motorcycles businesses that just wanted profits and the less said about the workforce the better.
I guess we got what we deserved. Thank you for the video a glimpse of how things could’ve been. Bit like watching an episode of bull’s-eye the darts program see what you could’ve won.😮
Very much the case in the UK
In Italy they Nationalised here left to die
To be fair however
You can purchase a real Brit bike I’d have to say
CCM is truly British and to be fair the Norton may be Indian owned today but the factory is in the midlands and build quality is a long way from the previous iteration and is of a very high standard.
Of the others RE doesn’t pretend to be British
The least said about Triumph in this regard the better, the way they try to pass their bikes off as British strikes me as plain dishonest
@@bikerdood1100 fair point about CCM although you can always be assured of their next limited limited limited edition😏 While those Indian owed Norton’s are gorgeous, although to purchase one I’ll have to sell my bikes, my car and possibly the wife 😭 not to mention the dog
Fascinating technical details. Isn’t that angular tank on the silver Triumph reminiscent of Kawasaki 20 years later? 👍👏👌
I was thinking the yam coffin tank
Interesting, some I newer heard of. The Bandit/Fury, was it split horizontaly or vertikaly? It was hard to tell...
Vertically. We used to be so excited about that machine back in 1971 - and I still think it looks wonderful today, the only genuinely new bike from the 'Power Set' range.
Vertically but horizontal assembly is nor the guarantee of oil tightness that some think and indeed some modern Japanese bikes use vertically split cases today
Yes, vertically split crankcases would seem to be a route to better oil-tightness but, as you point out, it ain't necessarily so. I've operated an NTV 650, a C90 and a current Royal Enfield 350 - all vertically split and with no oil-leaks!! More study needed!
And Honda single engines of 250 upwards since the 80s and it’s still the case today
Good engineers, poor Management the story of the Bike industry.
Not just bikes,the car industry was equally as bad,raking off the profits in the golden years whilst plowing nowhere near enough money into R&D or looking east and even when they did they drew the wrong conclusions.
The Japanese taught the UK a serious lesson on how to make both bikes and cars in a very short time.The UK industries didn't have the business nous to to realise what was happening to their market share,one only need look at the genius of the Honda Cub both design and marketing to see what was happening as the UK business fat cats sat on their fat backsides and did nothing but poke fun at the future leader in transport.The rest as they say is history.....
PS,it's still evident in business today,mores the pity.
Oh that’s not completely accurate
Most Uk companies were small , too small and sol£ to the Uk market predominantly
When the shift to cars occurred things went south
Remember in the 50s bikes outnumbered cars on British roads
Now they make up 1%
After 1960 bike sales all but collapsed in the UK
@@bikerdood1100 The Triumph/BSA group were the auther of their own demise,they had a huge market in USA which they squandered by not investing in production and R&D this became apparent during the '60s when the Japanese big four got on the scene "you meet the nicest people on Honda" was the strapline,whereas the UK bike industry was still dealing on "there's nothing a motorcyclist likes better than tinkering with his bike at the Weekend" .The Japanese bike ran and ran without the tinkering and it didn'ttake long for the customer to realise it!
A story,my brother bought a new 1966 Honda 50,he rode and abused that bike for 6 or 7 years as he commuted to work without doing a thing to it in '72or'73 with the bike having covered approx 10k miles IIRC,he asked me to take a look at it for him as the clutch was slipping,so I offered to service it.
When he brought it round to my place I couldn't believe the state of it,he'd never washed or cleaned it,bearing in mind two miles of his 10mile each way commute was on a cinder track,I asked when it was last serviced,he simply said "never"!
I washedit, serviced it,changed the oil cleaning the filter,brushed most of the muck out of the air filter ,adjusted the clutch and brakes and other than a bald rear tyre some scratches to the plastics,rust spots on the rims and corrosion on the engine casings it was as good as new.
It's that kind of abused reliability UK manufacturers only dreamed of.
Yes I can remember the Dockers who rode around in Gold Plated Daimler why BSA went to the grave.@@johnwood4448
The Dockers can’t be given sole blame, they do make a convenient patsy but it was far more complicated than that
BSA simply has their eggs in far too many baskets in the end and the management of the late 60s made some terrible Choices and were more interested in other parts of the company
Your channel could also be known as The University Of Motorbiking , always learn a lot, and always very interesting, long may it continue.
Well hardly
But thanks I’ll definitely take the compliment
Such a great shame about the Fury. I really wanted one in '73. Could you have a more in depth look at the Wulf sometime?
I’d struggle to find a massive amount of info
But let’s see
I would like to see you do a video on yhe bike I have 1972 suzuki TS 90.J trailbike or similar ts 100 tc 100 or similar trailbikes
🤔interesting
I do remember the ts 100 very well
The 74 year old Edward Turner was given the task of designing this bike despite BSA having arguably two of the best designers in the world, Doug Hele and Bert Hopwood. Turner was a geneus at his best but most of his work was sadly lacking. Often suffering from simply problems that could and should have been rectified, but due to his nature of always believing in been right and everyone else been wrong, many a good bike never reached it's full potential. However this bike was so badly designed from the start that even the best efforts of Hopwood and Hele could not sort it out, both Hopwood and Hele wanted to scrap Turners design and start again, but as usual at BSA during this period the higher management knew best and the bike never officially went on sale. Shame really because a simple adjustment with the bore and stroke would have given BSA not only a 350 but also a 250 bike for very little additional outlay
You do have to wonder
Not too surprising Hele was less than impressed
Turner had his moments but was by reputation not an easy man to work with
The red reason why the British motorcycle industry collapsed was nothing to do with either the companies themselves or the Japanese, it was to do with the environment they had to operate in. A product that was seen at the time to dangerous noisy and outdated and ridden by hooligans, that was been out sold 20/1 by the car. The government didn't help with heavy purchase tax that effectively limited the price any manufactur could realistically ask for their bikes and then there was our world leading banking industry who had and still have zero interest in offering sensible finance to industry. Compare this to Japan with their pro industry government and banking industry but above all else a massive domestic and local market for motorcycles. But always lazy and convenient to just blame the Japanese
you must like visiting DK motorcycles! you do quite a bit of filming there,
You could do a video on the best or worst (popular) import bikes to the uk, bikes not officially imported to the uk, from usually usa or japan
Nope
Only went once actually, most were filmed at the classic bike show and several other places
poor old bert having to put up with turner
Bet it wasn’t too easy
The list of sharp prototypes from the British designers is long and inspiring, but, sadly, the human imagination is rather slow to open its pockets... horses and water spring very much to mind.....
😂😂🙄true indeed
A pity the Ariel didn't move to production. I think it would have been a success, at least for a few years.
Tantalising thought isn’t it
Ditto the Wulf
A motorcycle shop in Nottingham has a Triumph single cylinder cylinder bike in their window. It looks like a half a bonnie but with a slight tilt.
Tiger Cub most likely
I heard a story about a Triumph Quadrant from a guy in Surrey I bought a commando off of not sure how true it was. He said a guy he knew bought one of the last Tridents made it seized up when he was riding it causing him severe injuries. Once he recovered from his injuries he tried to get a replacement bike but there were none but Triumph gave him a prototype Quadrant with a selection of bodywork options as compensation. Has anyone else heard this story or know anything about it.
Hmmm 🤔
It does sound a bit fishy if I’m honest
But you never
You`ve missed two multi cylinder contenders , the Wooler 4 and the Brough Superior Golden Dream
5 bikes
Not 10
Besides got to leave my options open
Sobering to reflect that,even when the wolf was at the door,for the domestic industry,the finest engineering minds continued to produce such fascinating machines as this. What might have been indeed...
Just needed someone with cash and imagination
As a 19 year old apprentice I was all set to buy BSA Fury when they hit the dealers ☹
Never got that far unfortunately
@@bikerdood1100 I so was disappointed, I purchased a Kawasaki A1 Samurai instead and that turned out to be one of my favourite bikes that I have owned 🙂
never heard of Wulf, every days a learning day.
That’s why I make the videos
2:00 & 7:54 - Doug Hele's name is pronounced ' Healey'.
I know, because he corrected me himself when I met him in the 1970s.
Great
Typical really because I always used to pronounce it that way until a few people said it wasn’t
Bloody typical really 😂😂
@@bikerdood1100
Odd isn't it? The village just along the coast from Ilfracombe - Hele - is pronounced 'Heal'.
The vagueries of the English language, eh? LOL
Just imagine if the Brough Superior Golden Dream had gone into production.
It certainly would have later achieved legendary status.
I wonder how that could have been achieved given Broughs limited production facilities. Who would have built a production version of the engine and wouldn’t have been too expensive to sell 🤔
@@bikerdood1100 who knows?i think it came along at the wrong time but several were built before the outbreak of ww2 stopped production
I'm of an age where the BSA Fury would have been right for me. I've always had a feeling of disappointment that they never came to anything.
It’s always about the finances
Fascinating!
Thanks
Certainly had some very different ideas. Many think that the British were bereft of ideas but not so, just bereft of sufficient funds
IMO the Wulf had the most production potential. The other concepts were just too difficult to manufacture with the outdated machinery they had available.
Well this posses a lot of questions In it’s self
Why was it so difficult for British companies to secure investment, as lord Hesketh would later find
@@bikerdood1100 I think because the industry basically needed to restart from scratch - like Hinckley Triumph did in the 90's.
I'm missing the "Bonneville Triple", which essentially was a T140 with a Trident engine and a modern appearance for the time. I'm sure that this platform would have been a contender to the Japanese.
Well it’s actually in the video next to the quadrant I think
It’ll have to wait for another time, it’s now technically that interesting really and I didn’t want to make a video about Triumph prototypes
Love the bsa fury, such a shame.
Such is life I suppose
Fury was a late contender for the Honda Black Bomber. Which had its own issues.
Black bomber was a 450
It was designed to compete within the CB 350 which was an important beginner class in the states at the time, so in truth it was not intended to take on the black bomber at all. The 350 capacity was chosen very specifically
Of course Lord and Lady Docker...Owners of BSA...had plenty of time and money to spend on their lavish motor yatch and lifestyle...swanning around the Mediterranean most summers.....and obviously little interest in motorcycles.....!!..How many on the Board of Directors were avid motorcyclists ...???..Meanwhile Japanese manufacturers were growing fast...!!!!
Forgot the Japanese it’s way before then
In general the impression is quite wrong however
Most British bike companies were owned and run by enthusiasts and were generally small selling mainly to the home market
Think velocette rather than BSA which was by Britsh standards
The idea that they ignored the Japanese is also on the whole quite wrong
The British industry was all but gone by the time the Japanese arrived because the bike market in the UK collapsed and indeed in many other European countries too
Japanese companies didn’t get rich selling big bikes to Britain this is quite wrong
But selling millions of small bikes in Asia. The British bike market is puny by comparison
We went from out numbering cars in the 50s to 1% of all road users today. That is market collapse
seen these before , the engine looks very italian MV or Gilera ? perhaps. Am talking about TriBsa ,s. Your narrative pertaining to the Ariel four draws a similarity to the BMW K series bikes , am sure reading at the time that BMW used adapted Peugeot engines for these bikes.
Or do all DOHC engines look fairly similar ?
@@bikerdood1100 well I beg to differ, there is something distinctly different about Italian bikes.But actually I was just editing that comment re- the BMW k engines
I don’t think the engines shown resemble Italian engines at all
Italy makes fantastic motors no doubt
We have 4 Italian bikes ourselves
@@bikerdood1100 nevermind I thought was engaging an intelligent discussion.
@@jezztechstrange retort ?
Don’t believe BMW copied the Ariel or were aware of it
Horizontal engines were a BWM thing in the early 80s if you recall the low line Brabham BMW in F1
Are you riding a Moto Guzzi Breva in this Video?
Possibly
I changed bikes in the video intro
Keeps people guessing
@@bikerdood1100 I recognised the handle bars and cockpit displays.
They look exactly like my Breva. Ride on!
Shame the 4 cylinder Triumphs didn't get the funding & R&D they needed as with the onslaught of Japanese machines things could have been very different. Be nice to see these machines though where was the video footage taken?
Some was shot at a museum others at shows
I’m not convinced a multi was the was to go
Other European companies avoided taking the Japanese head on.
A more advanced twin may have been better, a sort of British Ducati
@@bikerdood1100 Yes, with hindsight the salvation of the Triumph name is the triple motor. As a mid 70's bike mad teen, BMW were for old beardy men, Ducati & Guzzi etc for men with an Italian fetish. NVT promised much & failed. So Japan it was for our cash & hp finance deals.
Say what you like about the German and Italian manufacturers
They survived
The triple didn’t actually sell that well
25,000 or so. Not terrible but the twins sold better.
For me the European side stepping and feedback into a niche market was the way to go for smaller companies
Benelli tried the head on approach with their 4s with limited success
A 900 triple may have done rarely well but I have a feeling a light, nimble twin with an advanced engine would likely have done rather better against the poor handling bloated Japanese 4s of the late 70s early 80s.
Italian bikes did very well doing just that and having owned a few 70s Italian bikes they are bloody good
Nice video. However, you missed the Royal Enfield Series 3- 810cc Interceptor. RE ran out of money and time but Hitchcock's has a running example. Shoulda, coulda, woulda.
I missed a few
5 bikes not 15 after all
What about the OHC 175 RE
What would be the point in putting everything into a single video ?
It’s more accurate to say I didn’t mention them this time
Besides why talk about what’s not in a video why not what’s actually in it
My last video was about a tour of France but no one mentioned Belgium in the comments 😂😂😂😂
Tiger cub frame couldn’t cope with 200cc let alone 350cc, it was a terrible design of bendability with the tank to stiffen it up.😊
True but to be fair it was a proof of concept and the final frame was Very different
As for using the tank as stressed member well they did that on the 5ta too
Triumph 🙄😂
Should of used 650 cylinders on the trident to make 975 cc
They did build a 900 but the cash ran out
We had 2 strokes that revved like an angry wasp back the 40s, typical bean counters ruling our country into oblivion!
Think you will find it’s old fats with old ideas who do that
There’s always been people watching the money
In the case of these bikes by the 60s there was no money to count
In reality a successful company needs so called bean counters wether we like em or not
It should have been BSA Bandit and Triumph Fury. Those just sing better.
That’s often been said actually
The Honda CB750 in 1969 made them all irrelevant.
Bull shit
In a word
Well 2 😂😂
Thanks for obviously learned comment
Gave us a laugh at least 😂😂🙄
Love in input if a true expert like yourself 😂😂😂😂
I wonder how introducing a 750 made a 350 irrelevant
Hilarious 😂😂😂
I’d stick to bloody keyboards mate 😂😂😂😂🙄🙄
@@bikerdood1100well, that is a shock, insulted for making a comment. I was referring to the fact that the fours were the future like the 350 and 400 fours. I am very disappointed at your reply as I really enjoyed the channel.
If you enjoy my channel why make a comment suggesting so little understanding of history which is frankly disappointing. I deal with history on my channel
The idea that everything suddenly changed with the 750 Honda is pure pub talk
Seriously do some reading around this I’ve talked around this a great deal
I can’t do with gross over simplification
Additionally if I’m making a video about British bikes why mention Honda
Nobody cares, talk about Honda in a video about Honda 🙄
The 750 Honda did not kill the British industry it simply wasn’t like that It’s far far more complicated than Honda released the cb750, the whole point of my channel is too move away from this kind of sound bite view of history and hopefully to broaden understanding
Seems like I’m not succeeding
Well, we can leave it there then.it is a shame because I did enjoy the channel.
@@bikerdood1100fair play mate, I've read through a few of your snotty replies to your viewer's comments. You can stick your channel up your arse, I certainly won't be liking, subscribing or recommending. Way to go to not build a subscriber base.
Too many ideas not enough capital:(
It’s always about money
@@bikerdood1100:(
The British could have started with making a - decent quality bikes and not, as also by that time, the Lousy Production Quality in cars, which mostly fell apart before even reaching the road!!! It took German and Japanese ownership to produce a reasonable product in GB.
Massive over simplification
If you think back to the 70s
Japanese cars had lots of gadgets but even more rust
German ownership ruined River coolest said there the better
Ford money improved Jaguar by the by
@@bikerdood1100 I was the owner of a bought from new, 1966 BMC Mini. It became my first car, but also the only and last English Car!! It was absurdly awful produced, water came in from the corners of the frontscreen, the sliding windows in the doors, and paint peeled of round the outside hinges, from a faulty production method! I had to bend my - doorframes in, with a knee between the body, to make them meet the rubber sealing round the doors. Don't drive too close to a car in front during rain, as the engine will cut them, from the water spray. The wipers stopped at any place when cut, and the seats had an absurd motion when being moved forward or backwards, and only three holes as actual adjustment. The heater was either on or off, just to mention a few points. No syncromesh in first gear of course! And the long gear-selector in the front of the bottom, seems not to be connected to the gears? It wasn't very fast but that wasn't that special by then, and I gave it a tuned 1275cc engine with a proper gear box and stick in the bottom! It was more fun then.
Well this is a Motorcycle channel so interest in answering is minimal
However
The mini was a small car introduced in 1959, so is a 50s product to complete with other small cars such as the VW Beatle, Fiat 500 and Citroen 2cv
You may note the others used air cooled engines two having the ending in lest face it the wrong place 😂 also many small cars of the period, or not so small did not have synchro on first gear so criticising if for is transmission and engine power is more than a little disingenuous
How many won the Mote Carlo Rally 🤔
But enough of crappy cars this is supposed to be a motorcycle channel
I’ve owned a few British bikes of the 50s and 60s and found the build quality on the whole pretty good, chrome and paint being somewhat better than the rapid rust Japanese bikes of my acquaintance.
Instead of disregarding the British industry I would suggest some light reading on its history
May help to dispel a little of your anti British bias 😂😂
@@bikerdood1100 The Fiat 600 also in the Abarth version was water cooled, but I admit they were old models and outdated by then and not at all as advanced as the Mini. And I also think to remember that the Mini never made an actual surplus from the costs of production. But that isn't an excuse for making a lousy job, when it hardly cost more to make a finished product!
The out dated augmented by then for the Fiat does not hold water at all
The 500 in its classic form was introduced in 1957 only 2 years before the mini at the time BMW was still making bubble cars
Now that’s are awful
But why am I discussing cars this is cars
This’s is a bike channel and have 0 interest I ton boxes 😂😂
Do try to focus and bikes and do a little reading as suggested previously 😂😂
I don’t care about cars 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Go to Hubnut
His channel is very good and about tin boxes
Ariel 700/4.............oh yes............I always think police bike when I see the prototype.
Yeh
Why are you riding on the right?
In France at the time 🙄🇫🇷