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Melbourne's public transport has long suffered from a lack of good orbital routes - so can the ambitious Suburban Rail Loop finally fill that gap?
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Suburban Rail Loop Airport Video: • What happened to Melbo...
The Suburban Rail Loop aims to provide a new train line connect various key hubs throughout Melbourne's metro area - but it will do so at a huge cost, and will take ages to be complete. As a result, many have criticised the project and some have called for its cancelation. In this video I want to see if the project can achieve what it sets out to, and if it can justify its massive cost.
I feel like the planners spent 99% of the budget designing SRL East and North and then with 5 mins to go just scribbled a line from the Airport to Werribee.
You got that right. SRL west is shown to be run parrallel to the werribee line.
@@juandavidpenamezones1410 West should be Craigieburn -> Sunbury -> Melton -> Werribee with all the new estates inbetween
Well you're right - it was mainly designed as SRL East (the only part that will be built in anyone's lifetimes) to win Liberal votes in that leafy/wealthy belt. The rest of it is an afterthought, less politically useful for Labor and will probably never be built.
@@gir087 Nah, focus more on hubs. The airport needs to be there to prevent flyers from going to the city. So Broadmeadows instead of Craigieburn. Melton is too far out and is currently a VLine. Werribee too. The east is not trying to connect end of lines.
@@AnimeReference Melton is no further out then dandenong, cragieburn, or epping from the CBD, and werribee is electified.
When I was a uni student I use to have to travel by public transport between Knoxfield in the eastern suburbs to La Trobe University in Bundoora and back again every day. It took 2 hours in the morning and 2 1/2 in the evening, as I had to transfer between about 4 to 5 different modes of transport for each trip. Having a suburban rail loop back then would have been amazing and would have saved me so much time. So I think this will be great for university students or staff living in the eastern suburbs.
It would also be great for them to finally extend the tram line from Vermont South out to Knox City along Burwood Highway
Many years ago I went through the same thing 1 3/4 hours from sunshine to Latrobe Uni using 3 modes of transport each way. I could do it with 2 modes but this would take 2 hours.
I very much like the looks of turning the inner and outer circles into a dedicated tram route. The middle and outer suburbs could definitely benefit from trams existing. A Bell St tramline, that would be amazing!
There was also the former Rosstown Railway which ran between Oakleigh and Elsternwick and most of its route has not been built on. . Add that to the concept and you have a full orbital railway or tramway.
@@Dave_Sisson ah yes, I remember being told about this, but I forgot where abouts in the SE it was
It’ was actually in the plans about 100 years along with many other logical extensions. No reason why we can’t continue that plan and more
it is also frustating that the airport west tram route basically stops 6km outside of the actual airport, literally getting that last mile would improve congestion along that stretch so much
fun fact: thats because it used to take you straight to the melbourne international airport... back in the 50's when essendon fields was actually that international airport
Nice overview, and great suggestions. The idea of turning the old inner and outer loops into lightrail is very compelling, and like you said, highly complimentary to the SRL, while also standing on its own as a pretty neat idea.
Sad to see the Western suburbs getting shafted again though, was not aware that the loop won't run continuous. It's really quite obscene in my opinion to continue under serving that area at every opportunity.
Although I have a lot of problems with the planning and execution of the SRL, I honestly think leaving out the western suburbs are fine.
The western suburbs in general are very carcentrically planned and not dense enough to justify new train lines. Rather, the bus network should be expanded + improved with better frequencies, and active transport (cycling, walking) should be improved since there's a lot of free unused space. Electrification would also be good because it'd make it cheaper to run frequent service on those lines, which is desperately needed.
Well narrated thank you City Moose !
@@jm56585Serving the western suburbs would bring out more developement in the areas, therefore more services needed to serve the area and more medium/ high density housing
@@Detrabot What new train lines would improve the situation? I think what they've done to the current stations are really sad and representative of how they'll treat new stations if they are added.
@@jm56585 You do have a point but we can’t really do anything about it…
Some people think it’s rubbish, well I think we need something like this.
Best to build this now than later.
I’ll be using it it means I don’t have to catch the train to the city then back out.
People are the ones complaining are probably don’t even use public transport
Exactly. I remember the inconvenience and avoid trains now for this reason as I obviously drive.
@danielfreeman5910 I use public transport daily and I have serious misgivings on the Suburban Rail Loop in its present form. The way this was pushed through without DOT knowledge and in secret absolutely stinks. One can understandably come to the conclusion that this is is nothing but pork-barrelling. After all the line goes through electorates that the ALP won in 2018. And this is from a user who is in support of the ALP, because quite frankly the opposition sucks.
I think it is an absolute disgrace that Tarneit, Wyndhamvale and Melton have to make do with infrequent vline services barely fit for purpose, whilst Eastern and South Eastern suburbs get a fully automated tunnelled railway, costing $34 Billion and by the time tunnelling starts the budget would have gone up by another 2 to 3 bill? The Government should be looking to cut costs and trying to complete this project as a light metro, only tunnelling when absolutely necessary. In the meanwhile why not re-route the 903 bus route to start from Cheltenham and serve the suburbs of the SRL East.
Whilst I am grateful for the Government being serious about PT, one has to ask the question? Are they genuinely serious about providing decent Public Transport for all or just looking for smoke to be blown up their rear? Because the Government seems uninterested unless the project involves massive infrastructure.
Where's the money to build it coming from? WA can't keep on baiing out the east coast forever you know. Eventually we'll have to stop paying for all your centrelink bludgers ,then what are you going to do?
@@ACDZ123 As a Sydneysider I rarely defend Melbourne but in all seriousness, your comment lacks basis in fact. WA doesn't subsidise NSW or VIC and your mining cash ultimately ends up in SA and QLD. The Sandgropers should be more concerned about what will happen when China turns off the money tap and the iron ore mines have no other customers.
@vintageradio3404 yeah the engine room of the Australian economy is WA..we pay all you east coast bludgers living on the dole. Who you kidding 🤣 and as far as China turning off the mined,well highly doubt it, and secondly WA is so huge we got all sorts of environments from rain forests to desert, whatever. We're more versatile than your tiny state.we can go it alone if need be. We don't need you. You need us 😁
thanks for the video Moose, you raise some nice points.
I agree that there should be a few more stations added, as you say, one between Cheltenham and Clayton, and maybe one other somewhere in the east section.
But they shouldn't add too many, part of the point of the stations being few and far between is so that the trips are as short as possible across relatively large distances.
I don't really see the value between Cheltenham-Clayton:
1. The line has to go via the stabling which is being built at Heatherton, so you can't really deviate from the alignment they have picked. Each station costs $500m-$1bn so they need to make sure they get a good return on each station and the alignment itself.
2. The area between Cheltenham-Clayton is alot of greenspace as well as a former landfill site which the community is already pissed off about losing to the stabling. Building heights are also severely restricted by Moorabbin Airport. You might be able to develop a bit on top of the stabling but it isn't going to be anything substantial.
3. The only site I can really see that has any value which the current alignment passes is Kingston Medical Centre, but this could be served well by feeder buses anyway and is surrounded by extremely busy wide roads. Not ideal.
4. The planners have obviously looked at it and said in order to provide the relief and benefits to the existing network that the new line will bring, there have to be some compromises, and as you said yourself in your last sentence here is the compromise is having some long sections without stations because a station on that section wouldn't contribute much to the overall product. Use better bus networks to fill in the gaps, the bus network in Melbourne is shocking but Perth shows how it is done, they get very good bus-train interchange ridership in similar areas to the Cheltenham-Clayton corridor.
I think SRL is perfectly fine - for people who are travelling too or from a destination within about 1km either side of the corridor. For people travelling (for example) from Ringwood to Clayton, or Box Hill to Glen Huntly, it's a reasonable option.
But for anyone trying to use SRL to transfer between other lines, it just kinda sucks. Say you want to go from Ringwood to Glen Huntly. You could stay on the train at Box Hill and transfer at Richmond. Allowing 10 minutes for the transfer, that's just over 1 hour. Alternatively, it's 15m to Box Hill, 10m for transfer, ~25m to Cheltenham (assuming SRL runs at similar speeds to Metro Trains), another 10m transfer, then 15m to Glen Huntly. All up, about 1hr 15m, with the difference being the extra transfer.
To be useful for inter-suburban trips, the rail network needs a radial line every 2-3km (which it does), and an orbital route every 2-3km out from the CBD. This would allow a journey from anywhere to anywhere else with just one transfer, making cross suburban trips reliably better than travel via the CBD, and making them competitive with cars for the same journey. While SRL is a perfectly good orbital line, it isn't the six or seven orbital lines than Melbourne actually needs to make rail a viable option for suburban travel. And it's so expensive and planned to take so long to build that it starts to look like an unwise way to start.
Melbourne needs to scrap the "Sunday" timetable. The "Saturday" timetable needs to become the "Weekend and Public Holidays" timetable with the last service similar to a non-Friday weeknight. Sunday timetables were for a time where shops were closed, people watched World of Sport or went to church, and had an afternoon roast at home. That era ended when the Sydney Swans started playing Sunday matches in Sydney.
When you build anything you have to ask what else could you build for that amount of money and does it maximise the community benefits. I can’t but help thinking that you could build a lot of light rail lines and therefore create walkable neighbourhoods around suburban centres to encourage medium and high density housing.
You’re tellling me there are a bunch of rail lines sitting completely unused?? I am all for SRL however the fact that they haven’t already jumped at the opportunity you suggest to create more light rail lines is crazy.
Technically the old train tracks have been ripped up, but the land still sits mostly unused, except for cycling paths and the occasional park. It wouldn't be hard to build a light rail along it.
The western suburbs are all safe parliamentary seats in parliament, therefore BOTH political parties can afford to ignore them. However the eastern suburbs are dominated by marginal, swinging seats. That is why the east is being built first.
I can tell you as a outer eastern marginal seat voter, the SRL isn't getting my vote!
East is a much bigger population by far.
True, but all rural lines except for the one to Gippsland head west of the city. Combined with the west growing much faster than the east, track and train congestion is much worse in the western suburbs. @@gusdrivinginaustralia6168
@@gusdrivinginaustralia6168 No it isnt now. Wyndhamvale, Tarneit and Melton has poor services and the Western Rail Plan should be built before SRL.
@@mjcats2011 those areas are increasing in population but still not bigger. Wikipedia Melbourne population by LGA. Probably not even if you added northern suburbs everything north of the Yarra. You only need look at google maps to see the spread is visibly further out .
Why is the entire line tunneled underground when it's going through medium to low density suburbs with lots of big wide stroads and highways? It seems like if they just elevated it instead of burring it, they'd shave $60-80 billion off of the price tag.
It might be in an effort to try and mitigate sound pollution? The noise and the unsightly view are often some of the biggest criticisms opponents make, so it might be an attempt to appease them? Either that or a few ministers have a vested interest in tunneling companies
@@eris9062 Strodes and highways are much louder than any railway, but I get that NIMBYs are not really concerned about the noise, they are concerned about parts of the city getting upzoned for more housing causing their rental income/house prices to drop or stagnate.
@@eris9062 That's a stupid reason. The Vancouver Skytrain looks and sounds just fine. The only time people complain about it is when a section hasn't been maintained so it's creating too much noise. Elevated rail isn't the Chicago L anymore - it's grown up and looks lovely now.
@@RoboJulesGive me the Chicago L if it means you'd pay 80 Billion less. They haven't started building right? So there's still enough time to change plans. Having it elevated not only saves that 80 Billion but allows more stations to be built instead. Cause 15 Stations on 90km of track for 100 Billion ? Sounds like bad business. But that's just my logical conclusion and we know politicians dont know what logic is
Because that would require thought, planning and difficult negotiations. This state government has always found it much easier to simply chuck billions of future money at the wall to win the next election.
While the 100 billion (let’s be realistic, more like 200) price tag is insane, this just might make sense if it weren’t for the extremely limited use case with the loop; the cardinal sun it commits.
for a train line that’s going to cost hundreds of billions to build, it’s got a real dearth of stations. They absolutely should be filling in the gaps between lines with new stations, such as at Clarinda, Kingston Heath, Pinewood, maybe another two in Doncaster, in order to justify the line. Otherwise it’s only servicing people already on a train line, rather than opening it up for new passengers. Doncaster is FINALLY going to be getting a train link, and they’re giving the whole suburb (and its satellites) ONE station?!
If they planned on JUST connecting up a few lines, and not really opening any new stations, they should have just built the loop closer in around the old outer circle rail alignment. Would have been much cheaper (they already own the land, and the circumference is far shorter). Then they could build spur lines out from the loop to Rowville, Doncaster, etc.
Honestly this is not a real concern. Everywhere there is track there can one day be a station. Hubs first, back fill it later. We should be trying to address the most horrible commutes.
the 200 billion versus the 100 billion official figure isn't a fair comparison at all, they were calculated using totally different assumptions and time frames, for example the 200 billion includes 50 years of operating costs.
@@AnimeReference What percentage of people in Melbourne are doing commutes around the CBD? It's hundreds of billions of dollars from the budget of an effectively bankrupt state that will serve very few people in the grand scheme of things. It's a handout to the unions and nothing more.
The inner loop is a great idea
My biggest issues with SRL is;
a) it should be 10 carriage trains
b) be operated by Metro for more consistent branding and all Sandringham trains can travel to Werribee (or what ever the western terminus is)
c) Should be driver operated trains with a driverless mode like the HCMT’s in the Metro Tunnel, this keeps jobs and once again better integration
You actually want unnecessary labor? How is this line of reasoning even real? A destruction of an old job opens up for new jobs meaning more wealth. Especially in areas where there is a labor shortage.
should definitely be large trains for sure, and out mess of branding when it comes to PT is ridiculous, PTV contracts about 16 bus companies, 2 rail operators, and a tram operator, we have metro trains and vline trains and vline buses and my god
some amazing metro style systems that will operate in a similar manner like REM have most of the time 4 carriage driverless trains that work perfectly fine
I agree, there is a lot of merit is the the Suburban Rail Loop for high capacity passenger movements but equality extending the city tram network and improving the bus network with more frequent circular bus routes with bus lanes and/or dedicated bus ways linking trams and 'local bus services.
Buses never work as well as trains or light rail. It's a straw man argument that just bandaids the issue, the orbital bus routes take 4 hours end to end. Trains in the long time are way better.
While people complain the east of melbourne is getting all the benefits its really just the inner, outer east is still struggling with public transport. Politics keep cutting funds with each party change stopping line extensions out to the new growth areas, the outer west has the same issue the suburban sprawl is expanding but high capacity public transport isn't catching up there can easily be 3-4 stations added on to each side of the the lines and still be in the suburbs
Great idea to use the inner & outer land to put in a light rail As well as extending the Glen Waverly line out to Rowville area , this might have to be underground as usual there was no forward planning done for this area .
The difference in the price tag with the Grand Paris Express is shocking, and in Paris's case the cost already includes the final overruns, what's the justification for the cost difference?
Also, you've got such a beautiful voice and accent! ;-)
Also Paris's loop will have way more stations than the SRL - from memory I think it was around 60 or 70. At the end of the day they must just be far more experienced building train infrastructure and can do it at a more reasonable price.
we have cost inflation here due to so many infrastructure projects competing for experienced professionals and labour.
It time we started shipping that labour in just for the projects not as a permanent increase to our population
Great and informative video. Also an excellent demo tape for an announcer/producer job application for the ABC or SBS.
You didn’t clarify if the Grand Paris Express project is underground or not. Feels like an important thing to note when comparing prices
It's not underground and that's a major reason it's cheaper. The SRL should also probably not be underground for the same reason.
@@zsaleeba It is underground except for line 18.
@@zsaleebaif SRL was above ground though, wouldn’t a lot of homes need to be acquired?
@@Mono4692no, elevated rail lines are still insanely space efficient. It could be converting one single lane of traffic (or even none) and mostly use existing right of ways with some small areas requiring eminent domain.
I think instead of SRL, I think a circular Busway BRT service much like the Brisbane Metro would work better for a circular line. The SRL is great, but there's just too much capacity for such a route and it will cost a ton. Often I agree with many of the Big Railway projects, but I am not too sure if SRL should be put before the Airport Rail link or upgrading the existing system. If we instead built a Circular high-capacity BRT/Trackless Tram Route from Monash University Clayton to Tullamarine via Chadstone, Box Hill, Doncaster, Heidelberg, Preston, Coburg, Essendon, and then Tullamarine, then we could have it up and running sooner for a fraction of the cost. All we will need for it is bus lanes with dedicated priority. These trackless trams can run on any road which is great when a route detour is required. And as these Trackless trams also run on battery, you won't need to worry about wiring, as they will just fast charge at every stop or terminus. In addition, local bus routes can pop on and off the dedicated bus lanes to skip past traffic and traffic lights, thus speeding up commutes for many bus users across many bus routes. We could have the entire thing up & running by 2030 if we chose this option over the SRL. I am not fully against SRL, but I just don't get why it has to be so expensive when there are many other alternative options like BRT, light rail, or even just better integration with the existing rail system.
SRL vs AirPort Express link. Melbourne airport has been waiting for the rail link since 1970. They even have an unground rail station at terminal 4.
Interesting video. Incidentally, with the new Buwood station being built, will they be renaming the exiting Burwood station? With two separate stations with the same name not connected with each other may cause some confusion. I would think the new Burwood station could be called Deakin, or the existing Burwood station be renamed as West Burwood. Anyway, just a suggestion.
I think it starts in Cheltenham, but not at Cheltenham station. It'll be at Southland station, which is also in Cheltenham.
I say revive the old inner and outer circle. But either under or over ground since they are use as parklands currently.
7:45 as a man who lives in the west, i see nothing wrong with this. digging tunnels is expensive and i believe that, where possible, they should try to make use of existing infrastructure on the west, north and east. this project is already projected at 100 billion. imagine how much more it would cost if they dug tunnels through the west
You can easilly have the Western Part of SRL by using exsisting freight lines between Newport and Broadmedows with a spur to the Airport.
“The East is well serviced”. Darling you should live in Doncaster and try travelling anywhere; the City, Monash Uni, LaTrobe, Camberwell, Ivanhoe, the beach!
Even after SRL is finished somewhere around 2050(?), there are currently no plans to provide rail service to currently unserved & immensely sprawling outer-east... Devon Meadows, Cranbourne South, Clyde, Narre Warren, Berwick, By around 2050, another 2+ million people could be living here on top of the already booming population in these areas. The amount of housing being built here right now in the early 2020s is epic, with seemingly no outboundary in sight as farmland is converted to medium-density/high housing as fast as it can be approved & built. Yet, there are no services to the suburban rail network. In the next 20-30 years, places like Cardinia and Officer South will become urbanised as the outward sprawl continues. These places are essentially islands, marooned from the metro network.
Isn't all the real growth in Broadmeadows and Melton? And it's only going to get worse as people realise that you have to go Much further east to get housing down to west prices.
The SRL can become a jump off point for more radial lines at least, making more lines (trams or dedicated buses or full trains) to make sure you guys get served
Great Analysis!! And agree on all your points
its bonkers that they are starting in the east first and not focussing on the airport link as the #1 priority.. the airport link benefits everyone whereas the other links only benefit the people who live in that area.
The government lumping the Airport rail link and the Western Rail Plan in with SRL makes zero sense. There's no through-service because they're separate modes of transport (automated rapid transit vs normal trains), and the Airport/Western lines go straight into the city, not across the suburbs.
you can get 704 bus from Box Hill and Glen Waverley
It feels like the government, and it doesn't matter which one is in power, don't really care about the outer southern suburbs. Being in Pakenham, we have buses that run each hour, with the furthest going as far as Fountain gate shopping centre. There hasn't been an updated service for, from what I've been told, over a decade.
it's apart of broader reform needed for our bus network
The only good thing i can see about the SRL is it makes it possible to catch a train from one side of of the state to the other without going anywhere new the festering stinkhole that is the Melbourne CBD
Also makes possible very fast rail links from the regional centres to a SRL hub, then either an existing line to the city or along the SRL to your desired SRL hub and into whatever suburb youre going to. Again, without going tk tge bloody CBD.
But does the stated 'benifits' outweigh the pricetag?
SRL? Yes! bring it on!
inter line rails are good and desperatly needed but this is juts too costly when we dont have the money. expanding the trams is a better option
what i think is, sandringham can connect to cheltenham, bring 2 more stations between sandi and chelti,
Black Rock
Beaumaris
The old inner circle loop Near East Camberwell is haunted so it’s a no go I’m afraid
Will definitely be good for "tronsport" in the city that's for sure
Thanks for the video Kyle. I would prefer to see improved buses, especially getting more services on the 901, 903, and the 703 bus routes.
The whole point of building a new orbital rail line is you can redesign the bus network to run short frequent fast routes to interchange with the rail lines.
I agree. Plus also adding greater priority to the smartbus routes. There should be a dedicated bus lane on any two lane or greater main road they travel down. That will significantly cut down travel times, which will increase patronage.
@@kyletopfer7818 at $35 Billion. You keep on telling yourself that it is good value for money.
@@mjcats2011 Per kilometer it is similar cost to the two new Metro tunnels in Sydney and the new Underground line in Auckland at around $1.2bn per km, and is actually cheaper than the current Melbourne Metro Tunnel project. What would you build for $35 Billion that would have the same transformative effect?
@@kyletopfer7818 you are forgetting one thing. The Auckland and Sydney projects have started. In the case of Auckland's CRL and Sydney's City and SW almost finished. Sydney's other Metro projects have started their major phases. SRL hasn't even started its major phase and won't until 2026.
Transformation well the Auckland and Sydney projects are just as. Sorry I think the Government should be looking to cut costs.. $34 Billion is too much for a suburban rail line.
Melbourne used to have a suburnen rail back in the 1910s
The eastern fly was designed to have a tram run up the middle of it when was built
The trouble with rail in the middle of freeways is it pretty much guarantees low ridership. People use rail when it's useful to them and having your tram stations in the middle of a freeway places them a long way from anywhere they'd be useful.
@@zsaleeba freeway running works well in Perth because they can actually run a good bus feeder network, the bus/train interchanges are high-quality, both trains and buses run frequently all day and the trains are very fast.
the money could much better spent else where like extending and upgrading existing infrastructure. we always used to hear about a tram line to knox city along burwood highway back in the 80's so that is a start.
Is Paris being built in new tunnels? or above ground. The viewing you showed was a train in Paris going above the ground. In Melbourne raises the track then it will reduce costs, but people won't want that.
I expect for this project elevated rail might be more expensive again with the necessary land acquisition and demolition (which won't help housing). The current Skyrail projects have all been built along existing rail corridors.
@@mbwyatt1978 well its not going to be any cheaper then. its what you pay unless you bring in cheap workers and put them in dangerous situations, which isn't allowed in Australia and is morally wrong.
@@BDub2024 Not that I agree entirely with what @mbwyatt has to say but of course building above ground will be cheaper. Deep level tunnelling is very expensive.
@@mjcats2011 I think they're lifting part of the Armadale track in Perth so as to get rid of all crossings. Track shut down for 18 months so major work. They decided not to build road bridges or sink tunnels it seems. Some people don't like that.
where is the tunnel from Werribee to Cheltenham??
so are there gonna now be two burwood stations??
a large portion of the west is completely industrial with no houses, and so an underground rail line through here would be a pretty big waste. The east is the most populated section of Melbourne, with the most suburban centres, so they certainly deserve SRL first. Overall this video is quite poorly made, and glosses over one of the largest benefits to SRL - the urban redevelopment around stations, which will create separate walkabke business districts in middle suburban locations all over the city, and will help deal with our urban sprawl by allowing people to work and shop at these locations instead of commuting for over an hour to the CBD. This project is absolutely worth it and I'm tired of people criticising it despite not understand its proper scope and purpose.
people really don't seem to quite grasp the fact that the project is designed to cope with future building up of these suburbs as dense neighbourhoods, just seeing them for what they are now. Why folks can't seem to put 2 and 2 together and come to the conclusion that Melbourne cannot keep just infinitely sprawling is beyond me
They're perfectly positioned locations to be densified, future activity centres that are roughly equidistant between the CBD and urban fringes of Melbourne, giving the most possible people access to vibrant, dense urban environments, and transport between these satellite cities
The problem I have with it is the cost. It is projected to cost $100 billion, but our transport projects almost always go well over budget. For context, our current state debt is about $170 billion, so even if it was on budget, it will increase our state debt by over 50%. That is a hell of a lot just for one project and they don't really seem to have much of a plan to pay for it, even with their massive land tax increases for investors (which I can see backfiring, but that is another topic).
I just don't understand why they don't just build it down our orbital freeway network instead, with smaller underground tunnels to connect to major hubs.
Urban sprawl in Melbourne is an issue, but it can be solved with zoning (just stop rezoning farm land to urban growth around Melbourne and start doing it more around Geelong & Ballarat) and more orbital tram/light rail lines too, so it isn't like the SRL is the only option for increasing density in our middle ring suburbs either.
@@tonydarcy7475 debt doesn't matter if its been spent on beneficial projects that will actually get return on investment, unlike say major road projects like westgate tunnel and north east link that have before their budget blows have low cost benefit ratios (with their already generous assumptions like ignoring induced demand etc)
@@mathewferstl7042 Okay, so what's the ROI on this project then? At what cost is it no longer worth doing the SRL?
@@Macca-95 1.1-1.7. So lets call it a conservative 1.3. You'd need it to cost an extra ~10 billion to get a CBR of 1.0. You should start by actually reading business case before jumping on the murdoch media band wagon.
I agree that it’s a nice piece of infrastructure but I would be surprised if it stacks up financially against other options, especially given the timeframe. Better frequency and integration with light rail and buses to rail hubs might be a quicker and cheaper option.
Lucky trains can make up the cost over 100 years!
cost is really the least important factor in public infrastructure if its intention is to help grow the economy in other ways not measured in the cost benefit analysis. I hate the obsession the media make about costing with these projects without taking into account the flow on effects the infrastructure will inevitably make over the generations in perpetuity.
@@------837 Don't fall for the never-ending growth fantasy:
www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lanplh/PIIS2542-5196(23)00174-2.pdf
Or just build it down the existing freeways, so minimal tunneling is needed. We already have an orbital freeway, apart from the missing North East Link section, which is currently under construction. Just sacrifice a lane in each direction to build an orbital train line down the middle of it.
@@------837 at $34 Billion cost has to come into it. The State Government should be looking at ways to cut down costs.
The Victorian Government is great at investing in public transport but is terrible at it in the western suburbs.
There’s no reason why they can’t build the SRL as if it were a candle burning at both ends.
What might happen is an announcement after the metro tunnel opens. That project is a watershed project for western infrastructure, particularly as it allows for an electrification to Melton, which may form an additional hub for SRL West.
The second metro tunnel is more likely to happen than this project.
Disagree with adding stations, density is low and adding travel time which is huge when a train stops to zero for one minute (plus the acceleration and deceleration). Fill the gaps with buses and trams.
They should add a station at Heatherton.
so add travel time to stop at a bunch of car yards and petrol stations brilliant, maybe stop at the golf course and the middle of the green wedge or the stabling yard where there are twenty houses 🙄@@mjcats2011
Ideally the Suburban Rail Loop should be built on an aerial platform rather than on the ground something similar to Japan's approach! What is the average speed of this new train system btw?
they're official website has stated it'll have a top speed in some sections of 100 km/h
So long as they change the zoning around the stations, ie bulldoze single level buildings within a few KMs, then this line will transform Melbourne for the better. I hope they do this.
Props for being ambitious, but that amount of money could fund 5 megaprojects!
Busses, and dedicated bus lines are not the answer. The whole idea is to reduce traffic on roads and, while improvements to busses would work short term, would become more of a hinderance as populations and road usage grows
No one is saying that Buses should replace all rail projects but the SRL is not needed. The Bus Network is crap and needs improving.
In the long term, the project is necessary. But until it's complete, what are we getting in the meantime? We can't let the state lag behind the others on infrastructure improvements. We need expansions of the tram network to support the outer suburbs.
Scrap the Airport Rail project and instead electrify the lines to Melton and Wyndham Vale, then you can run Melton and Wyndham Vale trains through the Metro Tunnel alongside Sunbury trains. 4 trains per hour on Melton + Wyndham Vale lines and 6 on Sunbury would have you sorted in the West for quite a while for not much cost.
@@kyletopfer7818 I totally agree.
i have opinions on this! it would be nice to already have a loop like this built. but to build it from scratch, at $100 billion, tunnels the entire way, not completed until at least 2050, it just crazy. they would be better to implement a halfway method, like bus rapid transit.
Everything has to be built at some point… Can’t expect everything we need to already exist. I agree we need halfway solutions, however these should be in between projects to carry us through until SRL is complete.
@@closeben Or improved on whilst scrapping the SRL in its present form,
@@mjcats2011 scrapping SRL would be insanely short sighted. We need SRL now. But we will even more desperately need it 20 years from now, and it’s only going to get more expensive if it is delayed.
@@closeben I am advocating for it to be built cheaper as a light metro. $34 Billion for an automated railway in the South and East is unfair.
What people don't understand is that SRL is not a transport project, it is a land rezoning project. The real agenda here is to rezone areas around the interchanges for high-rise, high-density development. The government and urban planners have been mulling options for accommodating increased housing in Melbourne, the options being 1) Enlarging the CBD and increasing inner city suburbs density with more high rise, 2) building distributed mini-CBDs in the suburbs with high rise, 3) building medium density though the suburbs with more units, townhouses and medium-rise, 4) continuing urban sprawl or 5) decentralisation by building up the regional cities.
The mini-CBDs in the suburbs is the preferred option, whether people agree or not. The SRL is the tool to enable this politically.
As a transport project, the project is a joke. It was a back-of-the-envelope job done behind the backs of transport planners. It is going to suck so much money out of the state's transport budget for decades to come, there won't be any money left for much more important projects.
and this is all a bad thing because
@@RealNotOrrio uh, because it will cost tens of billions of dollars to build uneeded infrastructure just to ram though sub optimal planning changes.
@@soulsphere9242i was talking about the increased density, literally any public transport system in asia or europe takes this into account
@@RealNotOrrio if you want increased density this is the wrong way to go about it. The only increased density will be in a bunch of high rise mini CBDs surrounded by the existing low density suburbs, much like parts of Sydney. It makes more sense to build high rise in and around the CBD where the public transport infrastructure already exists and where owning a car already isn't a requirement. As for the suburbs is makes more sense to knock down 50s and 60s era homes and subdivide the blocks and replace them with low rise town houses. Sure have your mini CBDs, but not if it requires billions of dollars of useless tunnels first.
@@RealNotOrrioMelbourne doesn’t need to get any bigger. This whole plan is finding a solution to a problem the government is wilfully creating through insane levels of immigration
While I like the overall concept, they should have built the easiest and most urgent part, the western part, first. Then using that as a proof of concept, move on the next stage. And while we wait decades for it to become operational, there are things that could be done now to help people move cross-town that don't require any new infrastructure at all. Just make all the buses run on weekends and evenings, and to 15 minute or better frequency. All that requires is more drivers or more shifts for more drivers, that's it. No tunneling, no bridges, no new vehicles, nothing. Places like Dandenong, with its own CBD and a big population, have terrible bus services on Sundays, forcing everyone to drive. I like the idea of combing the inner and outer circle and connecting it with existing tram routes. Seeing as the trains on the Alamein line are the least busy of the whole network, it could be done.
This wouldn’t help passengers who are going from one side of the city to the other like lilydale to Werribee also they say every major line so Williamstown Alamein and Sandringham lines are not major lines?
You can go straight through for that though.
No, they are not.
Yes good non electrolisis track and upgraded lines for super fast express melbourne deserves the best ...
Thank you for another wonderful explainer video on Australia's traffic and public transport, and this explainer on the SRL plus the decommissioned orbital rail/tram routes. It is really very disappointing that the SRL is forecast for completion in 2084 to 2085, some 60 years away. This means, as population continues to grow, and with it more cars on the roads which in the inner city cannot be widened because of buildings and houses flanking them, the current vehicle congestion and slow speeds will only become worse. There are already many frequent start-stops on my journey to work, sometimes literally crawling on first gear.
It is really needed.
Why?
I want this thing done twenty years ago. I don't want to ride the line on the last day of my natural life!!!!!!
"Fix"? its not broken, just very CBD focused.
srl is just too far out to single handedly serve the suburbs, so i’d also reopen the inner circle
Revive inner and outer circle and through run onto new electrified versions of melton and Wyndham vale
Awesome video. shame about the shortsightedness of the past. Let’s hope future Gov’s keep investing in PT. Thanks👍
Of course, the cost estimate is just a starting point...
just having more busses will not help as traffic is already horrible hence the train line
Buses will help if they run frequently and given priority, not the stupid every 20/30 mins we have now.
more buses means less people in cars and better traffic outcomes
I always love living in the western suburbs and being forgotten about in every infrastructure project. The easiest win with an insane amount of benefit is to electrify the railway to Wyndham Vale. But politicians still cant even commit to that...
I disagree about electrification. Possibly to Melton but further should still be V/Line. We just need more V/line services and dedicated rail tracks.
@@himynameis3102except they are building so many houses there that it needs to be a metro train.
@@himynameis3102 It is difficult to run a very intensive service using DMU's. Of course Wyndhamvale, Geelong, Bacchus Marsh and Melton should be served by Electric Trains.
And that is why Victorian Rail is so average. Qld has electrified tracks to Rockhampton 645km away, WA to Mandurah 90kms, NSW to Lithgow, Newcastle and Kiama all well over 100km and people here get their pants in a twist of the thought of electrification to Bacchus Marsh and Geelong.
The Velocity isn't that great a train. A platform from the early 2000's with just a streamlined body. A platform that NSW is getting rid off.
Your right, basically nothing has been improved in the rail network over the last 10 years.... grow up, the whole thing was falling aspart. You have to start somewhere.
The politics is only a symptom of the problem. The main problem lies guess where; the people. People on this of town are unbelievably stupid because we keep voting in the same political party over and over and over again. When Labor knows they've got this region covered, and Liberal knows they don't stand a chance here, why would either party bother putting in any effort?
What if they just converted it to a Skyrail?
I expect for this project elevated rail might be more expensive again with the necessary land acquisition and demolition (which won't help housing). The current Skyrail projects have all been built along existing rail corridors. An orbital Skyrail would require massive acquisitions.
A 1435 mm gauge subway line through Melbourne suburbs is very controversial
Why would the guage matter? Standard guage is clearly superior and this will be an independent line.
be better going from doncaster to eltham to south morang to epping to roxburgh park to airport
We already had an orbital train in the east called the 'outer circle' and that was closed due to low passenger numbers. I'm sure this will get a lot more use than that did as Melbourne is a much larger city than it was in the 1970's, but I'm not sure passenger numbers will be enough to justify that sort of price tag. For context, the existing total state debt is about $170 billion, so that is more than 1/2 of it even if it is on time and on budget, which is very unlikely based on our history of transport projects going over budget, often by at least 50%.
Personally, I like the concept, but I do not like the execution. I think the best option would have been to create a orbital train network along the freeway. i.e. Have it start at Frankston Station, create a small underground section to get to Eastlink, then run it down Eastlink to the North East Link (currently under construction), then go down that and the Metropolitan Ring Road (maybe with a short underground section to connect to the airport) and then use the existing train tracks (or build new tracks next to them) from Airport West to Sunshine station.
The only argument against running the very logical train down the freeway median strip is that I'm sure the toll road operator will have a clause in the contract for that road that it has no competition. This would definitely be competition. It might be cheaper to just buy out that toll road too.
@@gusdrivinginaustralia6168 I didn't think of that, but you are probably right. Transurban (the owner of Eastlink) is a publicly listed company though, so I'm sure they can be talked into a deal that makes sense to them and it would still be much cheaper than tunneling.
I have to know what those books are in the background
A book from the Wheel of Time series, one from the Dune series, and a few from the Foundation series
The way you talk is killing me fella 🤣
I love more trains, but it would be a lot cheaper to try more frequent buses and bus lanes first.
We tried that with smartbus already.
@@rajagupta6772 We tried, but not really hard enough. It takes them 5 hours to get from one end of the route to the other. They needed a lot more dedicated bus lanes to compete with car travel times.
@@tonydarcy7475 Not just lanes but it would need a full BRT treatment with grade separation. The issue with buses is that they are sometimes sold as a cheap alternative as they can 'use' existing roads. But to make them efficient and fast you need a lot of dedicated infrastructure: busway with no level crossings/right of way at all intersections(otherwise it will be too unreliable in traffic), platforms for boarding with gates/posts for validation (speeds up boarding) and a better bus fleet (multi-articulated, more doors and capacity). Thats a lot for a bus line and if there was a view toward converting it into a light metro or similar then I could get behind it. But at the same time I think u can just go ahead and leave the long distance hauling for trains (which is what they are good at and scale well for) and leave buses for last mile transit and as local connectors which they are much more suited for.
@@rajagupta6772 It just depends how essential speed is. Is grade separation really necessary? Or can an alternative like they have in the Gold Coast where their trams automatically changes the traffic lights to give them right of way so they don't even have to slow down sufficient? Passengers taking a while to board can be an issue, but would reducing the number of bus stops reduce this to an acceptable level?
I think our SmartBus routes were a good start, but the mistake we made is they were basically just implemented and haven't really been improved since. They need further upgrades. These upgrades can be incremental. For example, start with dedicated bus lanes on all roads they go down that are two lanes or more in each direction. Then add priority at intersections. Then reduce the number of bus stops. Then look at other things like improving boarding procedures, grade separations etc.
@@tonydarcy7475 Speed is absolutely essential in PT if it to compete with cars, especially in the south eastern suburbs where we have large arterials which just encourage driving. Traffic signal priority may work but for long routes it still slows the entire service down as the vehicles still need to slow when approaching an intersection. If you want to do BRT u need to do it properly imo with a dedicated right of way like our trains have and grade separated.
But my issue is that we shouldnt be getting buses to do a train's job.Let trains do the heavy lifting and get buses to feed people to stations and connect activity centres. Smartbus is an ok concept but to me its just an easy way to 'solve' a problem by providing the bare minimum solution.
And I havent even mentioned capacity and frequency. Even if you ran buses at extremely high frequencies (very expensive as youd need a lot of drivers) you wouldnt be able to approach the passenger throughput a train (even one with only 4 cars like SRL) would be able to achieve. Not to mention passenger amenities are much better at train stations.
I used to live in North Balwyn - the 48 tram is great for school kids but painful to commute into the city on - the route is just too congested with narrow streets in the inner city area. Extending it to Doncaster would not solve that problem. Electrified buses that run frequently will help a great deal - and if they become autonomous at some future stage then they can be run very frequently and this is a future pathway I don't see many people as yet talking about. Frequently run autonomous buses are essentially more flexible little trains or trams - thoughts?
Why suggest having frequent electric buses as a substitute for rail when our existing Bus Network for 85% of it absolutely sucks?
Why are they tunneling in the outer suburbs other than to spend more money for more pork barrel political spending? Just make the whole route elevated rail. And make it quad track so that you can have express trains that only stop every four stops as in Tokyo.
Would take the acquisition and destruction of thousands of homes and businesses. Doubt it’s much cheaper and certainly wouldn’t be popular.
Also, what would it cost to simply buy the houses in a big circle as though the route would not follow roads or other rights of way at all? I don't think it would cost 100 billion AUD.
@@tintin_999compulsory acquisitions always go well... Yep.
@@Low760 I'm definitely not saying it would be easy or cheap, far from it. But 100 billion AUD is such an enormous figure, would buying all the houses (and fighting court battles) still be faster and cheaper? I'm not actually advocating that - try to build elevated rail over existing rights of way if possible. Just doing a thought experiment to try and show how silly the 100 billion figure is, as money saved could be spent on more public transport to other unserved parts of melbourne.
That's generally not how the tokyo subway system works.
Srl east to north only 5 minutes
SRL seems to be excessively tunnelled which is probably why it's so expensive. Tunnelled transit projects are expensive transit projects, and in low density areas like the suburbs of Melbourne, you're better off going elevated.
Your suggestion is one that's been dealt with extensively. The cost of property aquisitions and NIMBYism would make it prohibitive.
@@user-wy4ci7yj6b Has it? Proof? And there hasn't been property acquisitions with the current SRL? I think the SRL could be completed much cheaper.
The reality is that this should've been done years or rather decades ago. And yes, Melbourrne's bus network is absolute dogwater. Probably one of the worst in the developed world.
Why is it so expensive is a good question.
other than the fact its mostly underground the lnp got so desperate to win, they helped make a pbo report that includes building operating and maintenance costs until 2085 which clocks in at $200bn, the actual cost for building srl east and north is $85bn
@@RealNotOrrio And $85 Billion is still too damn expensive.
@@mjcats2011 eh, north east link (a 10km road tunnel) plus westgate tunnel (another 4km tunnel) clocks in at about 38 billion for about a 5th of tunneling distance, so it's a good deal
@mathewferstl7042 You can believe that all you like. Comparing the SRL to two mismanaged road projects does not make the SRL a good project. If you assume that the SRL budget wont blow out them I have a bridge for sale. The state has $14 Billion and they want the feds to match it.
Can it and use that money for more pressing projects like the bus reform plan, the Western Rail Plan, and the Somerton link.
@@mjcats2011 If you look the metro tunnel project, about 1.5 years ahead of schedule and only 2-3 billion over budge (can't remember off the top of my head which one). That's fairly impressive in the way of english speaking countries on rail projects. I don't understand why we have to sacrifice a city shaping rail project rather than 1970's era demand including road projects to get our sorely needed bus reform and the other projects you've mentioned.
It's all talk and hypotheticals. Just like for decades now, there has been talk (nonsense) about a bridge across Port Philip Heads, it'll never happen.
Using buses and trams makes far more sense. Rail lines where people will never travel the full distance are not economical to run so using transport modes that can be rolled out far quicker (think 20 years quicker) and less expensive means bums are on seats quicker and the CFMEU won't get to use a 30-50 year project as leverage for excessive pay increases.
One exception is the rail link to Tullamarine Airport. This should have been built 25 years ago when Sydney built its link with two stations to Kingsford-Smith Airport.
They do have buses. Can confirm, they don't work well and its easier to just drive or go into the city and back out again.
@@aussiejjdude3066 Because Buses are expected to run with poor frequencies and absolutely no priority.
I’m not convinced the idea of an orbital route makes sense in the era of 15 minute cities. Sydney is starting to create better PT around centres like Paramatta so that they become hubs for employment, commercial, etc rather than encourage people to travel long distances albeit still within the same city.
That’s part of what the SRL is aiming for is it not? It’s trying to connect large hubs outside of the CBD, fostering a more robust network around major locations, because a major limitation for local development is that cars are the only viable option for timely short distance travel as it stands, so if you can get quickly between these areas it encourages people to stay in their local area
@@eris9062 Not really. In Sydney it’s building light rail around the hubs to create more local trips.
Sydney has some level of cross city transport. They’re also pumping a lot of money into their CBD focused metro. So they’re still doing heavy rail.
One could say Paris is the 15 minute city concept's HQ, yet they're building a mega loop and supporting suburbs-to-suburbs lines projected to carry 3 million riders per day.
Even with the best implementation of the 15 minute city concept, there will be mobility.
And a loop in the suburbs greatly helps to reduce travel times and increase capacity between suburbs.
It's a "polycentric mode" reinforcement.
do we need it. yes.
can we afford it. no
should we build it. not yet
100b????
As a bus driver on route 903, this route will not live up to expectations. We hardly have enough people who travel between railway lines to warrant the need for a rail line for that market.
The reason is because bus route in general sucks.
The 903 is infrequent and slow, of course people don't use it!
How much of your time do you spend sitting in traffic while moving between stations? People don't use the busses because they're boderline unusable trash. Using the 733 bus to get between Monash and Box Hill would often take me over an hour at peak times. The difference between that and a train line would be huge. The train line is always going to be faster and more viable.
Build a fast no hold ups train line and they will come!
With respect, many disagree. Melbourne needs this... badly, especially with the population projected to grow so much over the coming decades. Trains are a much more attractive form of PT than buses, and people will definitely show up to use them. Hardly anyone would ever choose to take a bus if a train or even a tram was an alternative option. Many cities of similar population size in advanced economies (namely in Western Europe, East Asia, and even a few in poorer economies like Eastern Europe) already have these 'point-to-point' heavy rail networks in place, as opposed to the adequate but second rate 'hub-and-spoke' model that Melbourne has.
Considering how many people it will serve I think an outer suburban rail loop is horrible idea. Fix up the inner loop - it'll service more people and still service outer suburban commuters fairly well. Light rail might be good, a light metro would be great. Honestly our dedication to heavy trains is kinda silly (yes I know it's because of freight, you can separate them in the inner city)
Why u kick my dog and call him fark off
As an outer eastern suburban transport user, the SRL will not help serve me at all.
Not to mention that it will be decades before completion.
I just want my local buses to run with frequency and reliability and connect with trains in a timely manner. The only part that seems beneficial is the airport link.
I think its better than nothing....
This guy might just be the most handsome train nerd to have ever existed.
Right... between photo shoots and insta he makes transport videos to practice his tone :)
Actually the channel Steve's Technology and Transit raises the sexy nerd factor even more
I was just about to comment damn your so fine 😂
That's a pretend project like Comm Games
All worthwhile projects, but you neglected to mention the huge debt Victoria is faced with. I can see Victoria running out of the large amount of finance needed and the tunnel ending at Clayton with more debt to service. Projects cost enormous amounts of money in Victoria because Governments are notorious for mismanagement and unions make secret, exploitative deals.