Debating Lauren Southern Into Rethinking Her Immovable Stance
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ส.ค. 2024
- Lauren Southern jumps into discord to talk to Destiny after getting called out immediately following her debate with Hunter Avallone...
Date: 13 May, 2021
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#Destiny
#LaurenSouthern
Following her debate with Hunter Avallone, Lauren Southern gets called out by TH-cam chat and agrees to talk to Destiny.
They have a productive debate where Destiny gives convincing pro trans arguments and even gets her to rethink her hard line stance on the utility of categories in relation to trans issues.
I didn't think it would happen so soon! I said, "you should debate her for old times sake," and he did!
😎
@Joseph you can email him, and he will totally respond.
@Joseph What do you want to debate him on?
@Joseph :)
Lauren Southern has a thing for the chocolate pipe...
Interesting convo, even hunter was speechless the whole time
Nice
Meme
@@crazymonk27
"Hunter..."
@@ZimoNitrome your doge videos are best.
Gold
the best part of this convo was the fact that it wasn't setup as a debate so it didn't devolve into a shitshow.
@@phun54321 perhaps not, but it's easier to convince someone of your positions if you aren't screaming at them.
@@lordthruxawe504 I totally agree and I think our position on getting people to change their mind is really undervalued. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen someone just tear into someone for their beliefs either irl or online and then the person getting yelled at ends up retreating further into their own side. What’s especially frustrating is that I’ve had so many good conservations with people who are just blindly following party/group loyalty and I’d start to change their mind before some asshole decides to chime in just to name call and tell the person I’m talking to that they’re wrong. I’ve had success in getting people to change their mind on issues and to me it’s really apparent that the current issue of polarization is getting worse because people think that those who don’t agree with them are unsalvageable or sheeple or whatever. No matter how far gone you think a person is, you have to remember that you’re still going to have to share country/earth with them and that their voice means as much as yours, sometimes even more if they campaign.
@@travis6339 yeah I agree. People actually seem to get more extreme when you aggressively challenge them, but I think they drop their guard if you approach them with a softer tone. Yelling at someone puts them on the defensive, so they have their walls up already and will defend their beliefs more aggressively. People question why destiny is calm with a lot of his ideological opponents, but it makes him seem infinitely more reasonable than someone who is overly emotional. It's not just the information that's important, but also the way you present it.
@@lordthruxawe504 but screaming at them is so much fun...
Delete the word debate. Even the culture around it is become counter productive
this doesn’t even feel like a debate, this feels more like a conversation. and I think this is the most persuasive Destiny can get in convincing the other person.
Bless. I think conversations are more effective for actually changing the mind of the person you're talking to. That's never gonna happen with a debate.
Only a Destiny fan could actually get fooled into thinking that Lauren Southern is actually rethinking her stance. This person is a huge grifter and she's heard all of the arguments that Destiny has made before; it's just better for her to look like she's moving slightly than to be highly combative and angry. You do understand she's been doing this for almost a decade, right? This is a woman who fabricates narratives and stories at will to sell documentaries. This is a woman who will go out of her way to ask leading question to refugees in order to make it sound like all they want is welfare. This woman is vile and there is absolutely no change happening here. There's little chance that she's made any real political changes because she has historically been a grifter. Being alt-right queen is no longer the meta. The meta is being a more ben shapiro-esque conservative. That is the only thing happening here.
I'd say in most conversations Destiny shoots for this type of rhetoric (aside from the twitter debates) and I think it sets a very food example for viewers like me and you. The people that make the other conversations are usually the cause for it sadly, conservatives tend to get angry when they start to question their own beliefs
Nah I disagree that's a debate she was actually trying to defend her position the only reason you say this is because both sides kept their chill
@@jonathand3842 nah, it was a convo
This is a really well handled discussion by Steven imo. He did a great job here. It’s conversations like this that can actually make a difference in getting somebody to rethink their stance
I genuinely think this is his best "performance". He's like peak 2021 rhetorical effectiveness.
I think it was well handled on both sides. Very respectful and mature conversation for both of them.
Agreed now if you could do the same with lefties
@@italianwaffle5592 100% agree
It's good. I think it appeals to hyper online people, but that is the target audience anyhow.
I like the postmodern critique at the end but there are other metrics than suicide. He fixes it a bit at the very end when talking addiction.
"Interesting argument" she says.
I watched the pre debate talk, the debate, destiny’s review, and now this. I am not proud of myself
I’m proud of you though :)
omg, did you catch that 3% figure destiny mentions at 28:15? Have you heard that?
Truuuuuuuuu
yeah you need to do something outside of youtube :P
I was 340 at 1 point & now am 260, keep up the good vids!
the fact that Hunters facecam is just there makes this so much funnier. Like hes sat in the corner all quiet while they talk about him
Hunter sees all.
It’s just a still image.
Is anyone else annoyed by Hunter? I find him just as grating as when he was conservative.
His terrible personality works to undermine whatever good cause he argues for.
@@mypartyisprivate8693 who is he exactly?
@@slyfer60 Hes an old conservative turned liberal, used to be very anti-lgbt (in particular anti trans) and a typical anti-sjw type. He started going further left wing over the past year or two and finally tipped over after a debate with vaush.
This was a genuinely wholesome conversation. The match of mood and energy was perfect. Destiny and Lauren adequately pushed back against each other without either party getting defensive and they gave each other more than enough time to speak. Good memes.
and you could tell lauren was being very genuine and sincere in her questions and actually cared and responded to stevens points. very productive and good chat
@@yyzzyysszznn Very true. Much more productive than I think anybody in either community could predict.
They will probably both be labeled as phobic later and can laugh about that later.
@@yyzzyysszznn There's nothing genuine about Lauren Southern. She's a full blown white nationalist. She only realized her old strategy of being open about her beliefs wasn't working and has now changed her strategy into pretending to be a reasonable centrist.
@@user-uq4gr5nl5o True but you can’t let that cloud your judgement of her entirely. Say what you want about Lauren, but she could have just as easily said that everything Destiny said is all “fake news” or “liberal media propaganda”. Sure, she did do some of that to some extent but to say that she didn’t make an effort to understand Destiny’s arguments and try to counter them to her best in real time and her whole goal was just to grift is just naïve. Nobody should excuse Lauren’s past and even current statements or actions but that doesn’t mean that everything she does is inherently bad. She made an effort to understand Destiny’s arguments and if thats not enough for you to expect from a hard right-winger then just get out of politics now because you’re too fragile and uninformed to engage with anyone who disagrees with you.
Lauren: Hmm, you’ve gotten even stronger since last time we met Steven... you only got lucky the last time, this time I’ll grind your Axioms to dust! >:)
Destiny:*sips soy milk* don’t worry guys, i’ve got this one
ME: *_Luffy Chapter 1013 flashbacks_*
I’ve got something Mrs. Southern to sip on...
@@TariqNasheed117 Bruh momento numero 3
@@TariqNasheed117 kinda cringe bro
@@Wakefan2557 some chocolate milk
I didn’t even know he had this convo insta clicked.
Sameee
Same
Samee
Same
@@samson7294 👀 the Vaushites have arrived. This is literally word for word his argument.
This is the best steven has been in 2 years.
Unironically this is THE best conversation he's ever had with someone he completely disagrees with.
He's always a lot more agreeable with women lol
@@italianwaffle5592 You're forgetting the conversations with xj9 and Lisward, the real talks of 5+ years ago or even operation snake in the grass.
Depending on your definition of 'good' these conversations were definitely very entertaining.
Some of these videos went down some years ago or were on his last youtube channel, remembertommorow0.
The best Destiny has ever been was Destiny vs. The World with him against Fuentes (Booger Nick) Tonka Saw (Mercedes) , Brittany Venti (her eyes give her a 360° view), JF (Make babies with a autistic chick that has a 12 year old IQ) and telling the dude “your balls need to drop first” was epic. He was on fire. 😆
@@CamiloAM20 His debate with Milo waa a lovefest and his debates with Sargon often were good natured.
It's interesting the difference between this convo with Lauren and previous ones.
I'm wondering if rhetorically effective Destiny killed Bloodsports Destiny.
Bloodsports Destiny is Omni Liberal on twitter now for the most part.
Feels like when he keeps his cool and is rhetorically effective he could convince most people who are being good faith with his arguments.
@@Emery6393 yeah i swear the majority of people only "hate" destiny because theyve only seen a fired up bloodsports version of him who was somewhat coming for arguments they believed in so they put up a wall of defence by making assumption of him in their heads
@@cheekybananaboy3361 It’s all optics and rhetoric for a vast majority of political figures/streamers. While these things are important for moving people over, they get so attached to these things that it can easily compromise the way they pick up on their political positions
@@Emery6393 so many people are attached to their quick little bitesized sjws getting owned vids showing up right in their feed and they mistake them for an actual political position when in reality its just mindless entertained with all nuance removed. instead of bloodsports its bloodspectating, watching someone get ripped apart for daring to think and sighing in relief at how much smarter you perceive yourself in comparison.
@@cheekybananaboy3361 yup, one thing i have noticed that could possibly be changed to have a better outcome for us all is to not jump the gun at someone’s harmful (but meant in good faith) take on a issue and demonize them right off the bat (dependent on what exactly is said)
I feel like it’s so easy to get lost in screaming matches when we could just politely exchange view points right off the bat and have a possible easier transition into a better perspective for said person.
When things get hostile usually someone will just stand stronger on that stance more then ever.
I think bloodsports tactics should be utilized only when it’s very apparent we aren’t gonna get anywhere
Disgusting rhetoric from Lauren, asking Destiny if he wants to play a league game. I knew she was evil
I can excuse her racist, horrible statments/opinions she's made in the past but I can't forgive league
@@leajey4279 I don't think there's ever been a moment in my life where I've unironically wanted to play league.
@@leajey4279 What racist stuff has she said?
Destiny used to be conservative. People change lol
@@christopherlin4706 True, true. I went from a church boy, to an enlightened atheist lefty, to a center-left social libertarian(minus a few things).
It's all a journey.
IMMEDIATELY INTO MY FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED thanks editor :)
I really liked this debate very productive discussion. This is how they should be done.
Are you Ben's cousin? What's your stance on Rap being real music
@@Saivydas That’s a awfully hot coffee pot, should I drop it on Sai’s head? Probably not!
What do you think bars?
Destiny teaching both sides of a debate, peak Omniliberalism
Based and omnipilled
More just confidence in his positions. If you think you're arguments are correct, steel-manning your opponent only makes it more effective if and when you take them down.
@@woffe8094 you too
Beyond cucked and not based.
People should not be confusing what those words mean. Based is being redpilled on things like race and JQ, anti-feminism and anti-sjw, being cucked is allowing your countries and then neighbourhoods to be swamped with the third world, always retreating from battles.
Lauren “Data is the plural of anecdote” Southern
No you just add an s, Lauren.
I kind of get that line of thinking, to be fair.
In a way it actually is.
@@erikshure360 no it's not
I like how hunter is sitting there looking at this like he's a kid who got bullied and his father destiny is bringing in the bully to fuck them up
You didn’t notice it’s just a still image? Lol
This felt like a really honest back and forth. I doubt Lauren had her mind changed on anything, but the seeds of some considerations were definitely planted. Kinda goes to show that if you take away the "debate" format and replace it with just chatting that some people really drop the annoying defenses.
But you can't slam dunk people in calm conversations...
naive
Fascists just agree with you for optics.
Good on you for seeing this. The triggered who replied are just throwing out insults like a whiney baby, meanwhile their Daddy (Destiny) is calm and engaging with people he does not 100% agree with. Examples even Boomers should learn from.
Boomers gonna cry though.... "She insulted me. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!"
@@plane_guy6051 was it directed at you as a person? If not, get over it. My generation gets used as a flesh light yet I don’t feel the need to cry over it
Deboonk is not a word. Canada is sending us their wooorst, I'll tell ya.
both ryans and keanu tho
Don't talk about Ryan Styles that way!!
It's a meme
Canadian “people” 🤢
It's so cringe listening to her repeat it again and again - Like she's trying to make "fetch" a thing
Do debates ever have "discovery" processes where they have to show what evidence they are going to be using?
There is a reason why you can't blindside the other side in court with new evidence and it's so that the arguements aren't just reacting to unexpected stuff
Nah, bloodsports don't work like that. Unless you're watching something very formal and dry. You just kinda have to know what are the usual studies people throw out.
Proper debates. Yes. Gotcha internet debates? Ehhhh
That would be debates under I believe cambridge rules, which also include being instantly disqualified for interrupting your opponent or engaging in personal attacks. So would be a pretty bad fit for twitch debates lol.
@@dukecountu9475 I don't think having to present your evidence first would make it less entertaining though, unlike those other 2 parts you mentioned
@@dukecountu9475 you spelled twitch arguments incorrectly
I know someone who literally ditched alt-right because of Destiny's debates
@@NeoDeity ngl, punching a refug33 has the same effect for me
@@NeoDeity I think 9/10 times you'll find them hitting back and winning.
What do you mean by "alt-right"? The idea that we should have an ethnostate? No one with their heads screwed on on the right wants and enthnostate.
Or do you mean they went fully far left? In which case I'd argue that they were probably already there.
Litchrally
Honestly watching destiny during covid makes time go by faster
Hey best Viegar skin in chat
Would you consider yourself trans-age now?
@@jacobearwood653 Covid is not over because like half the country is too chicken shit to get a vaccine.
Wholesome
@@misterdemocracy3335 unfortunate because we have a vaccine shortage in Canada and are planned to wait 4 months for the second dose if everything goes according to plan
I don’t understand her mentality of waiting until college to treat a learning disability. I wouldn’t have graduated highschool had I not been diagnosed with ADHD. It was such a turn around I got an award for essentially “most improved” when all that changed was I got diagnosed
to put her in good light. I think she meant that we should hold drug use on children more than with adults, because consequences are bigger as a teenage person so we should be more carefull. If child have to use drugs to graduated highschool then he/she should use it, but if it just makes child feel discomfort then we should think about it more than with adult, because there is a bigger chance that with adult this state is permament than with teenager (teens are not well known for stable and long term views and opinions)
@@ukaszpoprawa2175 I don’t even mean for her broader trans argument. In regards to herself and her own ADHD. She, especially in the American education system, shot herself in the foot a little bit by choosing to let her learning disorder go undiagnosed. That’ll affect not only the chances of you getting into a good school but it affects what foundational knowledge is there for you to build off of at that school. It’s doing ones self an actual educational disservice to do what she did all for the sake of sparing herself a medication she would end up taking later anyway
@@danarmstrong9155 you’re right, it’s not something to cure. It’s something to manage, though. Not every behavior is something to change like just having more energy and being fidgety, but the struggles with organizing, in a physical and metaphorical sense, planning, and a tendency towards impulsivity are definitely behavioral traits of ADD/ADHD to manage. Tbh though My adhd isn’t just situational like dealing with long sedentary periods like school, but I can’t even read for pleasure when I’m unmedicated because I will lose track before I hit the bottom of the page. I FULLY understand the hesitancy to label a fidgety kid as neurodivergent though
@@DereBear I can’t speak for Lauren’s personal situation but a lot of people are turned off of medicating mental illness by personal experiences. My mom was diagnosed with several mental conditions included anxiety, borderline schizophrenia and bipolar disorder when I was in my pre-adolescent years, and the medication she was put on to treat it turned her into a husk of a person. She slept on average 12-14 hours a day and when she wasn’t asleep she barely left her room. On top of that on occasions where she ran out of her medication ahead of a refill she would have far more severe severe panic attacks that landed her in the hospital or would lapse into manic episodes where she did insane shit like gamble away my dads entire paycheck at the casino rather than pay bills with it. It felt like the medication just sedated her and the second she didn’t have it she lapsed into something far worse than she ever was before she started being medicated. Having to deal with that in my formative years made it difficult for me later on in life to consider that I might need to consider getting medicated for an anxiety disorder I’d had since I was in elementary school.
@@Magiya93 But why should your anecdotal bad experience with medication, or failure to use preemptive care, be used as a basis for legislation for care that mind end up saving lives, if at worse "have little to no effect", as she puts it.
it's literally better than the status quo even under the worst circumstance.
Idk if I'd classify this as a debate. Definitely was more of a conversation and I actually enjoyed this way more than the Hunter debate. Good job to Steven and Lauren
I’d say this was more of a rhetorical chess battle. Steven pushed back with some, Supa good points that, I hope, got Lauren to rethink her views
The latest and biggest study on the link between gender-affirming treatment and health outcomes in transgender individuals wasn’t mentioned here or in the debate with Hunter. It was published earlier this year in JAMA Surgery, with the title: “Association Between Gender-Affirming Surgeries and Mental Health Outcomes”. It’s sample size was over 3,500 with a matched control group size of 16,400. It basically found that undergoing gender affirming surgeries cut negative mental health outcomes (including suicidality) by more than half.
It also doesn’t suffer from many of the methodological problems with the 2019 study that Lauren cited (the one with a sample size of 2600).
I hope they will argue again so that Destiny can read upon all these studies and come prepared.
@Person 1 They adjusted for sociodemodraphic factors. They explicitly mention that the exposure group had higher household incomes, among other factors, and adjusted for it.
Of course it’s true that past year suicidal ideation isn’t all encompassing, but given that they were all at least 2 years post-surgery, it’s a reasonable measure.
@Good Guy I think you'd be shocked how much a relatively small economic difference can make on someone's mental health.
Lauren: I'm not a data scientist so I'm going to stop talking about data
Also Lauren: so the data says...
@@catofdeepblack that’s not the point. She says she’s not going to talk about X, then talks about X. This isn’t hard to understand. Unless Destiny also says he won’t discuss data, your comparison is irrelevant.
It’s like if Lauren said “I’m white so I can’t talk about the black lived experience.” If she proceeds to talk about the black lived experience, your response shouldn’t be “omg Destiny is also white and talks about it!” That’s not the point. It’s about saying you won’t talk, but talk then talking.
@@catofdeepblack 13:04 again, look at the timestamp, it’s not hard. You’re trying to pivot to “but they’re both x” which the original comment isn’t talking about x. If Destiny said “i won’t talk about weather then talks about weather,” I’d be saying the same thing. You should not say, “but it’s about the bigger picture man! Destiny doesn’t know about meteorology !” Nobody is talking about that so it’s not about the bigger picture or adding to OP’s original point.
The mistake wasn’t her talking about the data, the mistake was saying she wouldn’t. What she was trying to communicate was her frustration with talking past someone else with conflicting data and then getting flamed for it. There was probably also frustration with her performance, as she acknowledged reviewing her own arguments and not being happy with it.
@@catofdeepblack Did he make one of your champions look bad or something and that's why you're "criticizing" Destiny in a post that wasn't about criticizing him?
25:20 I find it really frustrating that destiny didn't push back on this assertion she kept making throughout the convo that a lot of people that think their trans before puberty are likely to desist just by going through puberty. She asserted that the hormonal changes that occur during puberty often cause people's identity to align with their birth sex. It's an assertion with no basis that she also made during the Hunter debate that Hunter accurately called out.
When someone shoots out so many claims it's hard to counter all of them. Especially if your goal is appearing reasonable to the person you're arguing with.
I do think it's a bit tricky to call some of that stuff out. There were a lot of comments by southern where I just had to go "I can't disprove you right now, but that sounds like bullshit."
I dont think its totally crazy to assume that. Identity is relatively malleable and puberty usually causes massive shifts in how people perceive themselves, trans people included.
@@standardworkaround the thing is I *think* she's referring to a study from the '80s/'90s on kids that displayed gender divergent behavior, and the study concluded that a lot of them desist by their later teens. The problem with this study is that it defined "gender divergent" behavior *very* liberally, basically like the conservative memes of "if your son plays with a doll they'll try to make him a girl!". Since that's not the selection we'd have on kids that get puberty blockers (much more rigorous process), it's not really appropriate to bring up in this context.
She might be referring to a different study, though, I don't know. This is just the one that I've seen people cite in the past.
@@Lukands Well we don't know what the study is. My point was that I wouldn't find it surprising if a lot of people questioned the relationship between their identity and their body (while they are more androgynous pre/early-puberty) but later stopped questioning that relationship when their body began to moreso resemble their identity. Though I find the idea of identity quite slippery.
I really wanted this and it happened. Life is good.
If you’re my FB friend I think you are - Hello! How do we wind up in the same communities? 🤣
@@rulan2260 I think by your picture I can tell who you are. Maybe it's because we're both based?
@@AzukaTheGoat i think it’s our religious upbringing that instilled in us the thirst for this side of dialectic. Good seeing you around.
2021: Destiny and Lauren Southern have a really chill conversation and bond over shared experiences.
Note to Vaush, this is how humans talk to each other.
The Beverly Hills Marxist
pov: you never watched vaush
@@vuxwery1691 I did. Got tired of his act real quick. I do think he can be great in certain settings, you know when he behaves like a real person and doesn't posture.
@@markpozsar5785 what "act" are you talking about exactly?
@@vuxwery1691 general preachiness without saying anything of value. Many times he comes off as someone who is just trying to score brownie points from a certain crowd instead of being genuine. Kinda like the serfs, but Vaush is far more intelligent, which makes it worse. Goes with this how he's quick to condemn anyone who doesn't religiously believe in the current dogma of the internet socialists.
To summarize, I find his personality repulsive. However I will tune in to see the occasional Nazi bash, those are great.
Bro I remember in elementary school I was top 3 fastest boys in my class, but this girl Jacklyn was tall af and had this massive gait so she would cover twice as much distance as the rest of us and was un-fuck-witable when it came to any kind of race. :(
fast forward to me being 27 going to a brazilian jujitsu class and getting ragdolled by a blind 17 year old girl.
you should train really hard then find her today, challenge her and absolutely destroy her in a race.
How do you know she had a massive gait? Did you ask to see it?
@@karimshebeika8010 Do you weigh like 110 pounds?
@@josiahclarke3535 I am European I weigh in Kilos
The thing that sucks is she’s literally wrong about the study. It found SIGNIFICANT mental health benefits for people who medically transitioned. Because the sample size was so large, they couldn’t cover enough ground to account for all the possible other variables. Basically, it meant they couldn’t make a compelling argument for CAUSATION. But the benefits were definitely there
Yeah, it should be at least a neutral stance where research can be done further.
Yeah anti trans people and reading studies isnt really a thing. Otherwise they wouldnt be anti trans. Its similar with creationists. They know they are right because they havent learned anything about the thing they disagree with.
false
@@HappyHippieGaymer Not true. Plenty of studies show the ludicrously of the trans ideology.
@@Grandmaster_Dragonborn Examples?
Xanderhal dropped the ball, Hunter did a good job, but I think Destiny will definitely do a good job at calling her out.
xan did well on the trans topic at least
He didnt call her out at all lol either one of them could email the authors of the study or get an actual doctor on and the questions would be answered.
Doesn't get clicks
Sure didn't bother to call out her former career at all. Context is important.
A lot of destiny's fans are now introduced to Lauren in the most flattering way possible.
I'm not the only one who thinks this "debate" added nothing to my life, right? It was like, "Yeah and yes, but yeah, and also yeah", right?
At the very least normalizing this can only be helpful. Someone as myself, would never even CONSIDER going through such a thing at a young age purely out of fear of stigma and feeling like a "freak" or an "other". When considering how people at all ages are affected by their transitions we ALWAYS must consider external pressure, especially those born from socialization.
Normalize what giving kids hormone blockers?
Lauren seems so slippy in her beliefs tho, I feel destiny could have asked more poignant questions in this discussion.
Like what question?
@@leajey4279 it's been a day ago for me and I'm not gonna rewatch it but he could have pushed on the fact that science starts with small studies where I feel he just said that that's all we have which isn't the same, also, she kept saying that it didn't change a the suicidal percent whether or not they got treated, but if we only test adults on hormone blockers it makes sense to me that it wouldn't change much because it's during puberty that hormones have the biggest effect.
@@unikracoon1913 yeah, that's a good response. I didn't catch any of that in my viewing but that could have made things better
I think you meant “pointed” questions, not poignant questions.
@@therainman7777 lol what
What a pleasant conversation between two individuals in disagreement! The world needs more of this.
The world needs less white supremacists more than it needs destiny having a friendly chat with a white supremacist
@Officer Slater Even the premise of your own ideology disagrees with you. I wish you luck getting out of whatever hole you've been coaxed into.
The world ABSOLUTELY do not need more « friendly conversation » with nationalists who want to spread propaganda. It normalizes them.
@@AiguilleVoodoo yeah, precisely
@@AiguilleVoodoo People with your perspective 1) assume to know everyone about a person they wish to silence 2) assume that people who are listening can't make their own about an issue so you as the holder of the absolute truth must guide them to right opinions. Grow the fuck up
Lauren Southern is still my future wife. I don’t care what none of y’all say 🤷🏽♂️
You know she’s a man right?
@@bludiamond9806 I don’t care
My wife’s a doctor.
@@UnstoppableFloridaMan your account name is really wild lol 😂 wow
@@whitegirlsaremykryptonite5779 Would you say hypothetically for the sake of argument, that ok this is is epic?
For the love of god, don't wait until college to treat a learning disability.
Everyone thought my younger brother was a lazy bum who'd drop out at 16 and get in trouble.
Turns out he had ADHD and dyslexia. The kid couldn't f*cking read nor focus on a task and it took 14 years and dozens of parent-teacher meetings for the school system to bat an eye.
Within weeks of taking his meds and getting adapted material for his dyslexia, he completely changed. He learned english with ease and was placed in an advanced math class that he considered too easy.
Everybody's condition is different and because she was able to go through it doesn't mean others can
She is arguing in bad faith. If the current evidence is enough for the experts than its safe to assume that no amount of evidence will convince her.
She is bad faith, but this is literally the liberal weakness here that conservatives exploit.
@@dblock20 lol, the "liberal weakness"....
What would you rather him do? Scream and call her a TrAnSpHoBiC PieCe of sHiT? Where would that get the conversation?
Instead, Destiny was able to AT LEAST get her to consider other arguments- "that's actually a lot more interesting than other arguments I have heard"...
Leftists have this horrible problem of thinking that shaming people and mocking them is what will work...y'all are part of the problem, plain and simple.
I get that vibe yeah, but I think now this conversation has been had, if she reverts to earlier positions she conceded on Destiny will call her out on it
By what metric is she unsatisfied with the current research... it's such a cop out to say 'oh I'm not against it I just don't think we know enough'...
Exactly, she implies that the data was bunk (it’s not) and simultaneously that she has some equal opinion where it’s like “just asking questions”. She just doesn’t like trans people or doesn’t understand gender or is indifferent to it and is grifting or not challenging her opinions at the very least riding a wave of personal opinion.
It's the same with the anti covid vaccine type people "lol we don't kno le long term effects so just don't take it".
Problem is, we can extend it infinitely.
There certainly *isn't* any research if playing The Last of Us 2 *DOESN'T* cause cancer, and certainly no long term effects studied.
So better be safe and not play the game!
Yeah as if she has higher standards than experts. She’s just bad faith. No study will convince her.
@@hoominbeeing "anti covid vaccine type people" How about just not wanting to take it, because as an individual you don't need it ? I'm not afraid of covid. With a 4999 out of 5000 survival rate, I'm willing to take that wager with my health. If I get sick someday, who cares. Yucky for a few days, then over it. So what? Covid was never ebola. I also don't get an annual flu shot. I barely get a common cold once ever 3 years. I'm good here. I don't need moralistic pressure pushed on me. If you want the vaccine - by all means go get it. I choose not to, because I don't fear what it's preventing. Nor do I fear the flu. Someday when I'm 70, sure. It would be a wise decision to begin protecting my more vulnerable body against things like that. Flu shots too. Because I'll be old and weaker.
I'll kiss a covid case on the mouth - today - just to get this over with. I really don't care. Give me my life back. Give us all our lives back. Protect the vulnerable, everybody who wants the shot gets it, then we go back to normal life. "But you people who don't get the vaccine are going to continue to spread it" ... *YES* but we will be the ones who CHOSE THAT RISK WILLINGLY. All infecting each other. You vaccine folks, on the other hand, can finally shut up.... you're vaccinated individuals... thus you have no moral claim on me and my choices. You're protected, and I cannot infect you. So finally time to shut up. It's simple - those who choose to get the vaccine all get it, and then everything can be lifted. Give it what? Another 6 months for the population to decide. Then its back to open season. Stop counting cases, stop counting deaths. The rest of us who carry, pass, or die are then on our own path of choice. Wanting no fanfare. Harming nobody but ourselves. Then it's just as irrelevant as the flu ... 40,000 to 70,000 deaths per year in the USA... and nobody bats an eye.
@@abandoned-mines-novascotia Lmao, your little tirade addressed none of my arguments.
I did not vilify people to refuse to take the vaccine; I vilified one bad argument for not taking the vaccine.
My claim was the people who distrust things based on the lack of long term research would have to bite the bullet on distrusting ANYTHING new that comes out
If a new Spiderman movie comes out tommorrow, would you avoid seeing it until long term research proving the new Spiderman movie does NOT cause cancer is revealed?
this man has custom made biomes but keeps goblin tinkerer with 18 other npc's.
Not gonna lie if I had to guess which one of destiny debates would be more on the civil side, this wouldn't be the one, but here we are
I think it just might be him learning. He's tested out things, and taught himself how to deal. A few years ago he might have blown his lid.
I dont mind the civility, but platforming her without going into the extensive bio of bullshit she's been into is a different sort of bad faith.
The thing with the "more studies and data" thing is that, while that is true in and of itself, people like Lauren Southern and others will never be satisfied with the weight of evidence in certain areas, e.g puberty blockers, because of ideological dogmatique reasons.
I suggest you watch this:
th-cam.com/video/2dfE84njX24/w-d-xo.html
there is more and more evidence that puberty blockers are being over prescribed.
@@testcase6997 Do you mean the ideologues pushing for children to be give insufficiently tested (for this purpose drugs), or the endocrinologists that are afraid to speak out for fear of censure?
@@testcase6997 Did you watch the video? This Dr, and others know that if they speak up they will be "cancelled", it's the new orthodoxy.
@@testcase6997 Were they virologists? This guy is an endocrinologist a SPECIALIST in the use and application of hormones. Irregardless this is a Dr STATING that he can't express his opinion, based on the SCIENCE, because people will try to destroy his life if he does. Why do you disbelieve him? Anyone who says "trans-women aren't real women" will be attacked.
@@testcase6997 I trust that he feels that he can't speak his mind, given the statistics on "late onset gender dysphoria" and the numbers that decide they shouldn't have transitioned at a later date, given the vehemence that activists have in promoting their ideology and how willing they are to tear down anyone that disagrees. In general I take ANYTHING activists say with a large grain of salt. Why do YOU believe that he's lying about his fear? Given the way people treat anyone that goes against the orthodoxy.
As Destiny and Lauren were getting into the anecdotes, something I'd like to share is that growing up, when I was 13-14, I was told that waiting until I was older to transition was the best way of going about it, dad told me the suicide statistic, but after days of deliberation I changed my name on Twitter and was grounded for it. The lack of a supportive community or any doctors to talk to basically warped my mind into thinking I wasn't trans, that I could just suck it up and move on. Now I'm at an irreversible height, I will absolutely need facial surgery and it's very difficult training my voice back to pre-pubertal ranges, even at 19 years old. This shit isn't something to be taken lightly, or as if experimenting with reversible drugs on children would be an immoral practice. I never stopped being trans, I would have serious dysphoric episodes throughout high school, but it was something I ignored, thinking every young dude went through stuff like this. It's terrifying watching all the states around me whip up bills signed into law that make doctors criminals for prescribing any kind of treatment to a 17 year old, and the lack of medical or even statistical knowledge by people like Lauren perpetuate these narratives and stall any legitimate progress because the studies we have aren't completely spotless
A lot of trans people really don't have it easy. I hope it gets better and wish you all the best on your journey!
Damn . Keep your head up
@Person 1 Do you actually genuinely believe that an environment of negative feedback and punishment doesn't affect how someone operates within that environment? I'd suggest you educate yourself about Trans people by using reputable sources instead of the uneducated opinions of yourself and conservative ideologues. Also what are you 60 years old or something, almost every teenager uses social media as a tool to interact with the world around them. Reality doesn't change just because your smooth brain can't handle these concepts, try thinking before you shit on someone on in a TH-cam comment section. Unironically you are one of those useless people who sit around all day on social media.
@@numnut154 Don't think you needed to include that last half to your comment.
@Person 1 'A better solution probably would be to simply not let you have Twitter at age 13 since that's totally unecessary and unproductive.'
This is a completely unrelated argument, idek why you brought it up.
'How do you know that isn't true?'
Because huge meta-analysis and studies have shown this to be the case? Because that advice proved to be wrong in the case for this individual? Did you even read what they wrote?
'We don't know for sure it's the case that you can reverse the damage (including psychological) you're causing with these drugs. That's just an opinion.'
We do. We do know. There is a lot of literature out there demonstrating, for both cis- and trans-children, that it is reversible and that it causes more good than bad, even psychologically. Plus, are you aware of the pyschological torment that ppl with gender dysphoria go through? Not taking treatment will most likely only cause even more "psychological damage" with the addition of the possibility of suicide.
'It probably has something to do with the fact that parents are on the hook for 17 year olds so they should probably have some say.'
Almost all people (after puberty) who believe they are trans end up being trans, so this point is absolutely useless. Preventing people from transitioning or taking any treatment to make transitioning easier in life is ultimately just going to end really badly. The suicide rates are already really high, shouldn't we be using treatment that actually works and helps lessen dysphoria?
'Out of curiosity do you believe you were able to consent to have sex at age 13/14? Because changing your sex seems like a more consequential decision than just having sex.'
Taking puberty blockers is completely different from having sex lmfao. Puberty blockers are a safe, reversible, non-invasive treatment with a high satisifaction rate. It is also already often used with cis-children. I don't think you truely understand how extensive the treatment is for children who experience gender dysphoria. It is not as simple as just walking into a doctor's office and recieving hormones and getting a surgery first day. You have to recieve extensive therapy, confirming that you have constincy in your gender identity, and then, if you're a minor, you will have to undergo several appointments confirming and being made aware of all of the consequences of having puberty blockers. On top of that, if you do not show the right level of maturity, you will not be given any hormonal treatment. Stop making this absolutely terrible equivalency.
What about circumcision? It is literally child mutilation and it is rarely called into question.
I’m still unsure whether she is grifting. She just doesn’t seem genuine. Can’t be sure though. She does seem more open-minded than before her hiatus.
For real? She seems super genuine. She acts like a very rational person
It's just optics, she's still the same person.
@@Daniel-ih4zh She's still pushing the same pseudoscience and she's still attempting to undermine trans rights while citing data with flawed methodology and rejecting decades of research and proof. I know that She's your internet waifu and you feel butthurt over any criticism of her's, but, that's what it is. She switched from using strong rhetoric to dishonest skepticism and Destiny knows that.
17:00 the correct response to someone being uncomfortable experimenting on kids because of the risk the treatment group faces, is we don't know and have no reason to believe without trials that the risk isn't greater to those left untreated, and we're only putting more people at risk by not finding out the correct intervention as soon as possible
Destiny slipped there imo
Hindsight
Well, it depends because we don't want to experiment on children, aka human experimentation on a person unable to give consent due to age (brain development). Then, it falls on the parent and that can lead to grooming the child towards a procedure that they cannot truly consent to.
It's basically freedom vs a justifiable lawsuit on human ethics vs freedom of choice.
20m in and the obvious component missing from this entire discussion so far i consent of children. We experiment on consenting adults all the time because we understand they're mature enough to weigh up the risks and benefits of what they're choosing to do, and even then with medical intervention, permanent changes often come with long consultation periods to cement that even further. In every other aspect of life we consider children as not able to consent to these sorts of things. They can't get married, have sex, get body modifications like tattoos, sign legal contacts etc. The idea that they could understand the significance of transitioning and the lifetime pain that maybe wanting to reverse that decision could have in future is basically intolerable. The data shows that even right now that some people transitioning even as adults do reverse that later on and have regrets. For me this just comes down to special pleading, that the issue of trans people in society should be a unique exception to these normal rules. There's also a disturbing lack of accountability for this kind of decision, if it does go wrong who do we hold accountable, the doctor? The parents? The trans activists who promote it? What recourse should the child have if this was bad for them, can they have the doctors licence revoked for malpractice? No experimenting on children, should the obvious but overlooked answer here.
good convo but she’s absolutely bad faith and the lack of pushback absolutely solidifies she has not and will not change her mind.
Right in my feed!
I literally thought she died haven’t heard from her in years lol
There's still time
I'm not sure if this was Rhetorically the most effective or not. Destiny came off as reasonable, but also pretty passive and he didn't commit to too many hard stances whereas Lauren was able to make a lot of unfounded claims, unchallenged.
This strategy might be effective in a private conversation, but I don't know about its effectiveness with audiences. Still if the goal isn't to push or defend a particular point and this is just for entertainment, then it's whatever.
Its the lack of a biography that hurts the most.
She's a legitimately awful person who has caused great harm, but all we saw here was flirtatious disagreement on a fringe topic,
Hunter Avalone not talking is the best part of the video
Hunter Avalone being in the video is the worst part of the video
RIGHT INTO MY FEEEEEEEEEED
FEED MEEEEEE
MILK MEEEEEEEEEE
OOOO
OOOO
Destiny is my moms name
The study Lauren keeps citing (branstrom and pachankis) has been corrected for “flawed methodology” by the ajp of psychiatry
This was really well done and seeing hunters blank stare in the top right just made it.
It’s just a still image lol
I wanna be transaged to 65 so I can get medicare.
You have to add "or I'll commit suicide"
Watching how Lauren and Destiny have grown as people over the last 10 years is really interesting and I'm happy for them both!
Lauren Southern dresses up as Eva Braun every time she gets ready to whack the clam .
@@SassanMedia Thats what she said .
Took Destiny at least 25 minutes and 24 seconds to close out that hunter face.
Stevie was on his best behaviour today!
Gold star!
Destiny: fine. I’ll do it myself
I have a massive amount of respect for the way you handle yourself in a debate and your knowledge on topics especially within this one
He did not really have a lot of knowledge abut the studies. What he did have was rethoric and an actual understanding in what is actually the problem Lauren needs to understand. Namely philosophy
@@onlyeveryone2253 So, what you're saying is, he had alot of knowledge on the topic?
Honest, fair, measured and informative. How often do we get a discussion that is this instructive on multiple levels? Not only does it clarify the issues surrounding a rather contentious issue, but it provides a very decent standard (in terms of divorcing a discussion from the typical emotional reaction) for future engagement.
What's with right wingers and their immense interest in trans issues? There is what, 0.7% of the population identifying as trans, but it's made into a top 3 topic to fight against? I guess culture war grifting still gets them the most attention.
When the pretenders fail. It's time to call in the big gun!
They're new not pretenders.
@@idontgetthejoke4813 Well your name is certainly appropriate. I didn't mean in the literal sense. Have you not heard of the term "pretenders to the throne?" I.e Destiny is the king of debate bros and the young princes are trying to claim his title.
I mean, there are others, but yeah, Destiny is one of the "big guns"
@@benkylo8015 I have not. Now that I have, I shall keep that in mind. Yes the name is for these situations. It is not voluntary. Sad pepe.
Lauren keeps saying that the Bränström and Pachankis is the best study on the matter and demonstrates no advantage of gender-affirming surgery, but the correction she mentioned points out that the whole reason that it doesn’t demonstrate the advantage of gender-affirming surgery is because the original study’s methodology is flawed. So it’s actually one of the worst studies on the matter. I’m going to assume she’s just bad at reading and not deliberately misrepresenting the article for dunks, but holy shit lol.
No, she's Grifting, she's Grifting hard
@@Daniel-ih4zh no dog, it wasn't even done according to a "normal population study". the thing that the study lacked had nothing to do with the unique conditions of "medical" trials, but the conditions of coherent studies in general. it wouldn't matter if the subject matter of the study was medical or economic or political, the lack of controls would undermine the study either way
@@Daniel-ih4zh too strong is a specific way of saying wrong or fallacious. the conclusion, taken as is, is stronger than the version of the conclusion that would be correct or justified. so it's incorrect/unjustified. not sure why you're so dead set on failing at nuance in order to defend a paper which the authors themselves don't even defend.
@@Daniel-ih4zh the fact it concluded was incorrect. you're redefining "wrong" in order to confirm your own worldview and the hope that your own view on the matter is correct in spite of the stupidity of citing this study as evidence of anything. i just pointed out how lauren southern's usage of the study is nonsensical. stay mad.
@@Daniel-ih4zh i haven't redefined anything, you're just wrong my guy. stay mad.
Hunter was observing during this debate.
Twitter is going to mald so hard at this debate lol
A Lauren Southern redemption arc would be pretty cool I think
@Cool Cat especially since she created that white genocide bs that lead to mass shootings. 😕
Do you believe that could happen? That’s delusional
Ship Lauren and Destiny 😍😍😍
this was surprisingly watchable
This video should be called Destiny and Lauren bond over being on the spectrum.
Not that there’s anything wrong with that it just wasn’t a “debate”
The tone of this convo is infinitely well tuned for a discussion with Lauren. She seem reasonable, deep deep deep down.
She has years of experience with discussions, she knows how to come across as reasonable even though she is crazy
I remember years ago before she got big (pre 2014?) she was a guest on Honey Badger Radio (men's rights channel) and running for the Canadian libertarian party or something. She said she was financially conservative and socially liberal. Then fast forward a year or two and she's talking about anti-trans and immigration issues. She strikes me a little bit of Shoe on Head (with less cringe) that she might have some actual beliefs that are reasonable, but then also kind of goes with the flow in whatever is popular.
She's an ethno nationalist and played a large role in popularlizing the Great Replacement conspiracy theory in less extreme conservative circles...
@@raz1572 To be fair, I think she has abandoned those views. In fact, her film on the refugee migration ended up with her changing some of her views. That said, she is prone to reactionary thinking and I could be wrong, but there have been some questionable social media posts from her on COVID.
OrdoHereticus No she hasn't. She is just hiding her beliefs. Don't fall for her grift. She still dog whistles and never renounces her past stated opinions or actions directly. She dances around them and JAQs off constantly. She's very slippery
Lauren really got deboonked here
bruh we cant let lauren become relevant again. ... but also im listening to this oops
I think she took a break to have kids
Lauren became more intellectual. Talking to Destiny is doing her good.
she's still nuts, she's just good at sounding reasonable
@@jkrt8722 what is your goal?
Blacklist Lauren for life due to your memory of her past? Or allow her to learn and change?
Former means you prefer the extremists to remain extreme, latter means you’re willing to recognize that people are individuals and can learn from experience.
It’s weird to listen to debates and discussions and not hope for reaching consensus or common understanding.
@@cp987
there's a difference to being mean and inspiring terrorism.
Lauren ain't no angel, she has actually hurt people and contributed to systemic issues all across europe and america via her broadcasting and laid the foundations for Qanon.
there's no "change" that can be done about this, the only thing we're left with is fighting back.
@@billieeisenhower406 I think we need to forgive past evil-doers with open arms. Our goal is to rid the world of these harmful mind sets for the future of our society, not to enact justice. Imagine the impact blue-pilling her would have on her die hard fans.
@@billieeisenhower406 if Lauren hurt you then you are too sensitive
25:20 she claims the 80% desistance, this is a false stat that nobody ever understands: to put it simply, the study that found a 80% desistance rate didnt actually compare the studies correctly. the 20% who persisted being trans were those who were on puberty blockers because they scored very high on the gender dysphoria scale, the 80% who desisted didnt take puberty blockers and were not, and BECAUSE, they scored very LOW on the gender dysphoria scale
in other words, the study does not prove a 80% desistance rate if not taking puberty blockers nor does it prove puberty blockers makes kids trans, the ONLY thing it ever proved was that, surprisingly, we have a VERY VERY good method of figuring out which kids are trans and which are not, since those who desisted and were not given puberty blockers were not determined to even have gender dysphoria
on another note, she also claims that suicidality is still high even after transitioning, and Destiny pointed this out but didnt really push it enough, YES suicidality may still be higher than the general population, BUT all studies also show that the suicidality is still LOWER than those who have not transitionined
another point, the detransition rate is not high, at all. the regret rate for sex reassignment surgery is only 2.5% this is half the regret rate than Lasik Eye Surgery (5%). on top of that a 2.5% regret rate for SRS is also lower than the rate of complications, aka: people get a botched vagina and STILL dont regret it, why? because surprisingly removal of the pp is more important than having a working vag
another point as well, Lauren brings up Jazzs lack of penile tissue due to puberty blockers: she is aware that penile inversion is NOT the only method of SRS correct? like.... there are atleast 3 other methods of creating a vagina that does not require a single shred of penile tissue. jazz can still get a vagina without issue, its just more expensive
They always conflate the number of actual diagnoses for GD with referrals to a specialist. It isn't professionals conflating gender non conforming behavior, it is people with a poor understand of what gender dysphoria is.
This was an astounding conversation. It was pleasing to hear it go so smoothly.
This made me like Lauren a lot more. Makes me realise that it’s harder to get a read on someone when they’re in the heat of battle.
I feel like she’s starting to crush on him a bit. That’s one union I NEVER want to see
I highly doubt that.
this was actually a great talk- super chill, and sounds like she's genuine in her discussion. At the very least she's charming enough to discuss it civilly
16:42 "We don't know all of the effects of puberty blockers yet." "That's true..." This is misleading. Puberty blockers are approved by the FDA for use in delaying puberty. They were initially created for kids who undergo early puberty and are being used in transgender medical treatment for the exact same purpose. ALL drugs approved by the FDA and sold on the market continue to be monitored for any long term side effects that don't appear during initial testing. Currently, no long term side effects have been found in children that are given puberty blockers to delay puberty.
Also, Lauren likes to jump from "testing puberty blockers in children" to "getting genital reconstruction surgery" as if one leads to the other. It isn't a package deal.
BuT tHe FDA has allowed bad stuff thirty years ago
Hopefully Nathan is never going to be obese. Because he wouldn't be a winning sun :/
I really like this Destiny - I also loved the bloodsports Destiny, but this softer touch for some interlocuters is definitely more effective.
Lauren has misunderstood some pretty vital points about the Bränström, Pachankis study.
Her claim that this study shows that transition has no impact is based on two factors, the first is that the study was corrected to exclude its original (pretty trans positive: ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2019.19010080 ) conclusion for being "too strong", the second is due to a new extrapolation which has been drawn from the data.
"there was no statistically significant difference in the prevalence of treatment for mood disorders between the two groups. Moreover, treatment for anxiety disorders was higher in persons diagnosed with gender incongruence and who had received gender-affirming surgery relative to persons diagnosed with gender incongruence and who had not received gender-affirming surgery."
This statement on its own should be taken with a grain of salt.
Firstly, the finding is post-hoc so taking it on its own as truth is a post-hoc fallacy (correlation does not imply causation).
Prudence is required when interpreting the findings and not, for example, collapsing all transgender persons into one unified group. Trans people who opt for gender affirming surgery and trans people who do not might be two different populations. Some people with gender incongruence may wish to have gender-affirming surgery, others may only seek gender-affirming hormonal treatment and others may seek no treatment at all.
Keeping this in mind, consider the finding in context of the study clearly showing that for the people who undergo gender-affirming surgery rates of treatment for mood and anxiety disorders were markedly reduced with time since the last gender-affirming surgery. Hospitalization rate for suicide attempts were also drastically reduced.
m.imgur.com/XBUl5BG
So in other words, at least for the ones who wanted gender-affirming surgery, it seems to have a positive effect
You may be wondering why the original conclusion was too strong. It's simply because the original conclusion also followed a post-hoc fallacy.
Due to the nature and availability of the data at hand it is not possible to determine the precise reason for the mental health care treatment and the precise nature of the treatment (e.g. psychiatric outpatient health care visit, collecting a prescription, or receiving psychotherapy, if any).
Even if you could draw a causal link, though, it would be just as likely that the mental health treatment needs in trans people opting for gender affirming surgery are commonly more severe than those who do not opt for surgery as any alternative.
Regardless, the study clearly shows a marked reduction in treatment for mood and anxiety disorders, as well as a drastic reduction of hospitalization rates for suicide attempts among trans patients who received gender-affirming surgery.
**TLDR**: Using this study as evidence for gender-affirming surgery not having any positive effect for trans people not only shows an ignorance of the contents of the study (it clearly shows the opposite: m.imgur.com/XBUl5BG ), but also commits the most basic fallacy in science (correlation does not imply causation).
Here's a link to the [full paper: sci-hub.se/doi.org/10.1176/appi.ajp.2019.19010080, the
correction: ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2020.1778correction and two notes to editors (a response from the authors: ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2020.20050599 and a related editorial: ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.2019.19111151?TrendMD&American_Journal_of_Psychiatry_TrendMD_0 published with the correction).
OH MY GOD IT SHOWED UP IN MY FEEEEED. THAT SUP SUP ALSO GAVE ME ENERGY. OMG UNIQUE COMMENT POGGERS
southern might just be the best conservative internet debater
and with conservative i actually mean (reformed?) white supremacist
wow. that was an embarrassing comment
Bruh that's such a cringe comment 😭
Educate me daddy
How does everyone feel about some of these previously hardcore entrenched conservatives suddenly becoming more "progressive" (or at least more willing to engage in the dialogue)? The Milo debate also showcased this phenomenon, where a lot of his usually inflammatory rhetoric was mostly absent, and Milo admitted himself as shifting slightly to the left on some issues.
Personally I'm rather conflicted - because on one hand we don't want to be too antagonistic, and potentially push these folks back to the conservative dark ages whence they came from (from where they will continue to inflame the discourse). Arguably, this is what we do wrong all the time on the left, we don't let people in. On the other hand it's incredibly frustrating to have someone who's career was created by peddling conspiracy theory as loudly as they could in order to carve out an audience suddenly be accepted in our midst. There is a real, if unmeasurable harm that people like Milo and Lauren have caused over their years of borderline alt-right rhetoric.
If they show the work, like actually make detailed explanations of their change in opinion over various issues and start putting out some more original left-leaning takes of their own over a similar period of time, then yes we should accept them.
SocialMinds is correct it comes down to how sincere they are about changing.
The issue with these two is did they honestly ever hold the positions they did at all. Southern I feel does casually believe everything she says but due to having a kid now is less enthusiastic about it. She's a right-wing reactionary who did all that crap to grow her profile and get cash. Milo has never held an honest political position a day in his life. He says and does whatever he wants cause he's a provocateur He hated virgin gamers until gamer gate happened then he was their biggest fan. He was the "bad gay" the one who says the things gays aren't suppose to say and he got money and cash out of it. His seeming shift is likely due to him growing board with the right wing and wanting them to be mad at him to. He gets off on it.
@@slyfer60 I think that's a pretty reasonable take. It's hard to say with some of these pundits just how much they actually believe their own rhetoric. Lauren in particular I always felt was disingenuous because of her tendency to just laugh nervously whenever anyone pushes back against anything she says and her apparent unwillingness to dig deep with any of her arguments - but now I think it's probably a mix between her not having the intelligence to expand on any of the '101 inflammatory hot take every alt-righter must know!' and honestly just being too lazy to learn anything beyond the simplest arguments because that's enough to make her money.
Is this a sequel to the "Lauren Southern Debates Ex-Fan Hunter Avallone... It Kinda IMPLODES" video or is this a standalone? Trying to not get spoiled thank you for the help. Popcorn ready
Well, the two videos happened in immediate succession, so it probably makes sense to watch the other one first if you plan on watching both eventually.
This occurred during the other video.
After 3/4 of the "Lauren Southern Debates Ex-Fan Hunter Avallone" this convo happened. Timeline is funky lol
Sequel but it's just a jumpstarter for the rest of the convo they have i guess.
Destiny is a full on debate consultant, who could be hired to teach people how to debate in debate clubs.
I hope they're called "debate saloons"
I'm conflicted about bringing in a character with Laurens history for a friendly convo like this, but I can't deny that this would be the most effective way of converting conservatives watching on her end.
Let's hope she will convert and bring more people to the Omniliberal side
@@onlyeveryone2253 It's Lauren 'the great replacement' Southern, we can dream but it is a pretty fantastical dream.
@@TheAnimaAnimal 🙏
Those kinds of opinions are legit what's wrong with the world and politics atm. ''I dont like you and you said things I disagree with and therefore I dont wanna talk to you or ever hear what you have to say and you don't deserve a platform'' Grow up. Those kinds of attitudes are litteraly proving the hard line right wingers are correct at times.
Dude, we're looping
Lauren is 100% wrong. As a Trans Person who works within the Trans Community - social rejection has a lot to do with high levels of depression and suicide rates. Always funny when Non-Trans People seem to know more than Trans People.
It's funny when people think being trans makes you informed on trans topics. You might know more than average by being trans but you don't automatically get statistical data and perfect understanding of everything every trans person feels and thinks from being trans. These studies you know of probably weren't even done by trans people.
imagine spending an hour asking daddy vaush on how to talk to women
The study she keeps citing concludes that gender affirming surgery leads to better outcomes.
Destiny: fine, ill do it myself
Did I just fall into a wormhole to 2016?