Sorry, We Need To Talk About VAR
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ต.ค. 2023
- Following Luis Díaz's goal against Tottenham last weekend, which was wrongly ruled out for offside, the discourse around VAR has gone into overdrive.
Ever since video-assistant referees were introduced, there has been controversy surrounding its application, interpretation, costs, and benefits.
So in this video, four-and-a-bit years on from my first VAR video, HITC Sevens takes a look at the state of referee's technological assistants, the state of officiating as a whole, and why all of the proposed solutions are doomed to fail.
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VAR is not the problem. The people using it are. Something needs to change in the formation of referees
That and a rule book that is way too vague at times. Making this level of scrutiny ineffective at times
@@RD-wg9em That is true. The rules have not adapted well to the transition to VAR
That’s what I’m saying. It’s just the infamous incompetence of English referees. If the VAR officials took just a bit longer to think before confirming their decision on if Diaz’s goal was offside, then none of this would have happened
The problem is the offside rule. Players move too fast and the linesman is running full speed while trying to stay in line with the last defender while watching two places at the same time. All VAR does is make what has historically been professional judgement into an exact science, down to the mm. Given that the offside rule is impossible to enforce without VAR, and with VAR is too accurate and gives marginal offside that would never have been picked up without it. Remove the offside rule, and the rules get a whole lot clearer
@@lucaslonchampt613 the leagues need to be willing to write hyper specific rules, like when rugby has specific criteria for red card challenges.
If the rule affects the game then they just set up a committee to reevaluate year after year
My favourite part was Gary Neville on the live commentary saying it was clearly offiside. Then, in the post match commentary when all the controversy came out, he said as soon as he saw it he knew it was onside.
Like a football commentary equivalent of 'read my lips no new taxes'
Then he backtrack😂😂😂😂😂he need his sky job😂😂😂😂
gary neville being a hypocrite is to be expected
Great player, sub-par human being sums Gary up just right.
If Gary said it was offside that’s good enough for me. All kneel at the altar of Neville. (Gary).
Automated offsides is essential. Fans can see the decision instantly on the screen, retaining instant feedback of normal refereeing, and removes any human error. VAR should be for red card offenses only. There is no subjectivity to offsides, it either is or isn’t. You shouldn’t accept that a referee can get this wrong. Red cards are often subjective and that is fair enough that it can go either way sometimes.
Don't let Konami anywhere near it. They cant even get offside decisions correct in Efootball 24.
@@dmitrikaramazov4982 But we might finally get Yugi vs Kaiba on the big stage
Offside rule that's ridiculous is player interfering with goalkeeper's vision or not when he is clearly offside
@@stephentyas4698 I really wish that wasn't reviewable
Normally agree with HTC takes but i cannot agree that VAR is the problem. Mike Deans comments about protecting his mate is an example of why VAR is not being applied correctly. They should have an independent VAR panel, maybe referees from other leagues so that there is no bias involved. Also there is no excuse for missing an offside or forgetting to draw the lines, that is incompetence and has nothing to do with VAR.
Which is the point about referees making mistakes. Even VAR can't take that away.
Fully agree. The fact that they're all mates and don't want to disagree with each other is very telling along with the fact there is just no accountability for bad mistakes. Needs a full revamp
exactly. plus look at almost any other league and i guarantee it wont be nearly as bad. i dont like how in the MLS they take forever sometimes but at least they strive to get it right. in the bundesliga its worked really well as well. ofc the past 2 world cups. but when the human errors are that clear, obvious, and stupid, you cant be blaming VAR for that.
the point is refs will make mistakes. having another layer of refs above the first layer disempowers them and spoils the game with delays
It boils down to PGMOL members and the organization protecting its members.
The procedures in the booth are crap. What they are doing is not good enough for 2020, really, but at least they would have had a fig leaf of an excuse a few years ago when VAR was relatively new in this league. They are years and years behind where they should be, and that implies ongoing foot dragging by PGMOL itself.
Let's face it: most PGMOL members like being on the pitch, and they dislike booth duties. So they are choosing to do the minimum in the booth in terms of training and developing procedures to be as robust as possible.
Consider how stressed and disorganized things sound on that audio for one of the simplest possible VAR duties. How well do they perform when there are multiple issues to handle? Like chickens with their heads cut off, obviously.
Remember how they forgot to check whether Pickford wiping out Virgil Van Dijk might be a bookable offense? They were busy with the offside call and it slipped their minds. Remember how they forgot to check whether Rodri had a handball at Everton? They were busy with the offside call and it slipped their minds.
This audio explains a lot.
On Josip Simunic's three yellow cards at the 2006 World Cup, it is actually a really funny story. Simunic was born and raised in Australia, and as they were playing Australia, in his head, he registered the number, and heard the Australian accent, and assumed he had carded the Australian of the same number.
Imagine not knowing which TEAM you booked the player of but still giving a free kick.
Had the Australian player of the same number been booked after one yellow I feel like the scandal would be 10 times bigger and basically result in changes instantly.
@@jamesflynn4951 Just imagine Croatia winning the game. Or if the draw it ended up being would have had a negative outcome for Australia. I was genuinely rooting for Croatia to win only to see how FIFA would scramble to fix it.
What I fail to understand (as a footy fan from the U.S.) is how a league as massive as the Premier League has issues with VAR as big as these. I primarily watch my local MLS club, and I cannot recall a single match all year (last year too) where I’ve witnessed a controversial VAR decision even close to this magnitude. It’s just baffling how issues like these are almost seemingly common in one of the world’s largest football leagues.
It's pretty easy mate, gross incompetence and negligence and no accountability, it's something you see in everyday life here in the uk from your local councils to country running government to things like the nhs the transport industry ect ect ect, VAR is systemic of what happens when you have people in charge of things that have no idea what they are doing, and sadly we here in the uk just suck it up and accept it, now while it makes me sound like everybody is doing a bad job it's not quite like that for every good hard working honest person you've got 10 along for the ride and don't wanna do there jobs or accept responsibility for their own actions, until we have a massive shift in work culture and start rewarding people for doing a good honest hard days work and stop with this blame culture and victim culture things will only get worse or stay as they are
The answer is simple. Most PGMOL members like refereeing on the pitch and they do not like being in the booth. So they drag their feet about doing the necessary work to become good at VAR and have endless excuses.
The bottom line is the training and procedures for VAR are years behind where they should be. The chaos in the booth for even a simple decision explains a lot. If it was this bad in the first year of VAR at the EPL, I would grimace but give them some time to sort it out. That we are having this discussion in 2023 is the fault of the PGMOL and their glaring lack of competence.
Can imagine how they perform when they have 2 or 3 different things to look at in the same play? I am pretty sure it comes down to guessing. There are a number of famous shockers where they just plain "forget" to check for important issues.
It's because of match fixing. OBVIOUSLY 😂
@@papalegba6796 it would not be a question if there was no gambling
The real answer is no one cares about US football. The premier league has all the eyes of the world on it, every mistake by every player and official is amplified 100000 times over what happens in the MLS.
Officials in Rugby are waaaay more advanced and the watching experience is just overall better
Goal line tech & a score board ,
Other than that leave tech out of football
They also have a rule book that’s far less ambiguous, and we get to hear their though process.
@@benbuckley3239tech should be implemented, the ref need to be investigated tho
Come on now, let's not be silly. In no way is rugby a better watching experience than anything. It's slower than test cricket and every five minutes the game has to stop so the players can have a cuddle.
And there is far less scrutiny on them. Guaranteed they get just as much stuff wrong.
I like the idea of the "challenge" system tbh, like in cricket you could appeal so many decisions per 90 minutes.
What if the other team can Buzz in to counter the appeal if they can answer a trivia question?
If they get it right, no goal, but if they gamble and get it wrong, double trouble, TWO goals!
Australia’s rugby league league (NRL) has a captains challenge system where the captain can challenge the decision (duh) and if they get it right and the decision is overturned the captain can use it again but if they get it wrong that’s it. I like it I reckon it prevents abusing the system and stops players from getting away with dodgy play the ref sometimes can’t see. Pool and wolves dodgy calls likely would’ve been overturned if the EFL had this
Like the NFL? That's how I thought it should have been implemented since the beginning
@@sambacic9767spot on. One of the very few things the NRL have gotten right in the last 10 years
Mic up officials in rugby also very good idea
I can still remember the use of VAR at the 2018 World Cup: It worked perfectly and was communicated well.
*laughs in moroccan*
I feel like the technology and double checking a goal, etc. is objectively good for the game. The problem as usual is incompetence and human error.
If the competency is easily achievable, go apply to be a ref
@@seemymobot4987 that's the whole point of the VAR, to make being a ref easier lol. I was talking about the behind the scenes VAR people who apprently weren't even watching the game.
Good stuff as usual, although I think your assessment of whether fans would accept VAR decisions better given their reasoning is very damning. There are absolutely a lot of fans who will refuse to accept any decision going their way, but in rugby we have the calls explained and although there is room for disagreement, in general there is far less grievance with the video assistant's calls.
True, but I think it has also something to do with how (much better) rugby fans and players generally behave in comparison to football heads... 😅
rugby culture is way different from football
No apology has been issued, Alfie. They just admitted a mistake.
I've only just come across your excellent channel and am mightily impressed with your balanced and well reasoned content. I particularly like the injection of gentle humour coupled with reminders that this is sport and not life or death. I have been a football fan since the early sixties and have seen the game change out of all recognition over the last sixty years however the introduction of VAR has given me the most mixed emotions in all that time. This video has most accurately reflected my own feelings as far as VAR is concerned, indeed when it favours my own team I am delighted it exists, conversely when it does not, I curse it! In any case, thank you once again for your first class content.
I agree with you as well. If i'm an Argentinian, it is the hand of god and no need to check VAR; if i'm an Englishman, it is the hand of the devil and VAR should ve been established to check that goal.
very glad that, whilst still discussing the football issue, you never let people forget that this is fundamentally sport and not life
adore your videos, please keep them up!
This is a good reminder that some football fanatics would do well to remember.
Football is the livelihood for some.
Bro, this is Professional Football Competition not your Sunday league football, every mistakes by the referee that affecting points means there are a lot of potential financial lost for the clubs, remember that there are a lot of job that directly and indirectly affected by that club finance, it is livelihood for many people, would you say the same if people talk about your job as just a hobby?
@@rizzz___ of course football is important, as is peoples livelihoods, but as alfie said Indonesia is literally on fire.
Football is important of course, some things - such as climate catastrophe and unprecedented ecological collapse - are ever so slightly more important
that bill shankly quote isn’t literal mate
@@rizzz___ nobody talks about his day job when he portrays himself as pog champion. I regret even commenting on this troll post.
I think the pressure to minimise the time spent waiting for a VAR check is to blame. Players and fans want the instantaneous momentum of celebrating a goal, not waiting around twiddling their thumbs while VAR conducts its assessment. The fact that the clear and obvious error by the on field officials was confirmed but nothing was done to rectify it shows the failure is in the communication between on field and VAR officials.
That is true, but it is an incomplete answer and it is letting PGMOL off the hook for problems that should be laid at their feet.
When your procedures are crap, you have no answer to "Can you take a little less time?" "I can try" is the unprofessional answer.
The professional answer looks like: "We have run many training scenarios and the typical time is X seconds. We cannot shave that off without adding risk of errors." "Our undated procedures take 3 seconds longer for a typical offside call, but they reduce the risk of error when there is more than one issue to check."
It's funny how Liverpool are now facing sanctions for calling out the bad officiating in the match, while the PGMLA or whatever it's called admitted there was bad officiating
*_Fixing VAR isn't about making it perfect_*
Probably the best scenario for VAR in football is usage the same as TMO in rugby. It has a clear standardized process that can be heard by fans too. Cricket is much the same, a clear process that follows a specific structure that confirms the on-field decision before proceeding, and instead of going just "yeah okay check complete", they tell the umpire weather to change their original decision or stick with it.
I do also think that hearing the process is a benefit, you can maybe hear the reasoning behind a decision, even if you don't necessarily agree with it, if football fans can't take it the it's their problem. Tribalism shouldn't blind you from the facts of the matter, I'm a lifelong Liverpool fan but I don't get all the accusations of corruption against us and all that, it was just idiocy. Maybe making the process public will make it more streamlined too by necessity.
I think fans need to maybe put less pressure on VAR to complete checks faster too, there's a sliding scale between speed and accuracy there I think, and extra pressure like that is definitely one of the factors that leads to massive mistakes like Diaz's goal being disallowed.
My issue is everyone is only focusing on the Diaz incident and not everything that happened within the 60 minutes of the game after Jones got sent off, with the shocking officiating… The Diaz call was just the icing on the cake we all looked back on.
Jones was a decision that could was probably Yellow but maybe Red. The Diaz call was 100% wrong.
Liverpool can't afford to focus on every incident in that shit show, they're going for the one they can easily win.
The Jones decision is debatable , but the challenge he made could definitely be interpreted as a red
Is it harsh? Sure. Understandable? Also yes
The officiating was fine other than the Diaz call.
Many shady decisions in that game. And it happen from since early season. Officials very easy giving cards nowadays. Van dijk get his first red card in his career because 50:50 challenge. MacAllister too, then they appealed it.
Salah also get yellow card not because take off his shirt in the pitch 😱
Too many. But liverpool can't work all of them. They focus on something they know they can win.
Refs and Officials really make themselves in spotlight here. From now on, spectators will supervise them. If they smart, they'll minimize their mistakes and inconsistency
As someone who comes from a country that calls this game "Soccer " we get ridiculed, but the country with the best version of the game can't get calls right is absolutely appalling.
Don't expect any self-reflection or major reckoning of that sort from the English. Their arrogance ensures that will only happen after a major tragedy or controversy
This all happened with the NFL back when they introduced Official Reviews and Coach's Challenges. There was a period of growing pains, the media trashed it and opinion pieces were made about how it would never solve the problem. And then they got rid of it and that caused even more problems. Then they brought it back as the standard. Though there have been incidents where refs have messed up since (e.g. Bottlegate, DPI review season) but other than that, it's worked.
I never thought I'd say this but we should actually be looking to rugby. Their system is so much better. Football corruption would never allow it though😂
Watching the rugby world cup at the moment makes this all seem so tiring and avoidable. If the money in rugby that regularly means clubs disappear and semi-professionals turn up in a world cup means refereeing can be good, then the money in football should be able to do this as well
I think Alfie underestimates the power of the video referee simply explaining their decision. The National Rugby League (NRL) here in Australia has had a video review system for at least two decades. It's had... issues... but what I believe has finally made people accept it is that for the past few seasons, the ref explains their decision. We all get to see that there is an actual protocol in place, it's not just a random process. We see what the video ref sees, we hear them talk us through the decision in a logical and systematic way, and 99% of the time you agree with the decision after that, even if it costs your team a try. There seems to be a lot less noise around video referee decisions since this policy was introduced.
I'd like to see a "challenge system" where the manager of a team can challenge a decision from the on field ref, then the decision gets put into the hands of var
how would they even know from where they stand? managers have about the worst view of the pitch in the entire stadium, how could they possibly tell if their player was fouled in the box between 10 other players 😂
I recently had the same thought. But I would give the team captain that possibility as he is on the pitch.
@@dr.strangelove4665 the captain would go to the manager and his assistants and talk about it
@dr.strangelove4665 In a lot of sports that do have the challenges, teams have a guy whose job it is to sit in a room and buzz the coach/manager to challenge the call.
@@CardsTricks42 that would be great then, yes. But it's something that would need proper implementation and seeing how they currently run things, I don't trust them whatsoever to make a process that benefits everyone
the NHL ice hockey league does it perfectly: Manager is allowed to challenge on certain types of calls, and if the challenge fails the team is punished by going short-handed for two minutes. Unfortunately it would need to have the sin bin enacted for football (which I also think is a good idea)
"playing out from the back is woke" - I genuinely laughed out loud at this bit!
I just don’t get why it’s so bad in England. It’s great in other leagues, it was great at the World Cup. It feels like the officials in England that are the problem to me
I don't know why VAR don't follow rugby's TMO functionality. Let the ref inquire assistance when in dpubt, check what the ref asks to check and of course, disallow offside goals.
VAR has had a clear positive effect in refereeing. The trade off is not worth it to get rid of it.
It's just like Alfie says, refereeing can never be perfect.
But think of all the handballs, offsides and fouls that were caught by VAR in the past 4-5 years. Terrible decisions that were overthrown thanks to it.
The game is much better for it.
The thing that annoys me the most is just standing around for ages, having no idea what they're even checking for. This weekend, after every goal Villa scored, it came up on the screen "VAR Checking Goal" and we stood around for ages. We didnt know if they were checking for an offside, a foul, we didnt know who as supposed to have done what. It feels like with many other things in football, the people in the stadiums are the last person to be considered. If they're not willing to play the referees coversation over the PAs in stadiums, the least they could do is say "Nicolo Zaniolo was stabding in an offside position during that last goal, VAR is checking to see if he was standing in the goalkeeper's eyeline and therefore interfering with play" - we still aren't going to like it if our goal was ruled out, but at least we'd not have to be texting people who are watching the game on TV like I was.
should be more like rugby officialating.
The thing that really struck me with the audio was just how informal and chaotic it was. You would think that there would be a template for how the communication happens. A clear statement of the on field decision, a clear confirmation or reversal, as well as also stating exactly what the correct decision is, then repeat that back and agree together.
Just want to point out PGMOL never apologised for the mistake, they released a statement where they acknowledged a significant error was made.
That is different to an apology, its an acknowledgement of facts.
Great video, Alfie! (voted!). I think Goal line tech (and by extension, side line tech) is probably the one constant that should be kept from VAR as all it requires is to check whether the ball (independent of player action) is in or out of the pitch. VAR itself, as you pointed out, is trying to achieve the unachievable: a perfect game (and I say this as a Liverpool fan who read the transcript of the VAR officials and wondered when one of them would ask 'Who's on first?'). About the only thing I can think could make things 'fairer' (again, if such a thing is possible) would be to use a system similar to the NFL and tennis 'challenges', where tennis players/NFL coaches have a set number of challenges to calls that they can make per play period. If the challenge fails (the official's original call stands) the player/coach loses that 'challenge' but if they are proved right, they get to keep it. Once the set number of challenges have been used up by a team, they're used up. It changes the focus from the officials missing calls to teams having to decide what to challenge. Not perfect, as, well, it all depends on human liabilities, but at least the pressure is not on officials to get everything right all the time.
True, (Liverpool fan too) if, say each team captain or manager gets 3 opportunities to make a challenge and they use it, then there can be less rumblings after the match because you would've been given your opportunity to object to a decision that you don't like. If the coach or captain doesn't challenge at least there is a less likely chance that the fans will slaughter the referees after the match
This would be very disruptive to the game - as it would be used as a time-wasting tactic late in the game for the leading team. Part of "game management"
In principal, I agree ... but only if the manager who "challenges" gets a substitution window removed when they're wrong.
A manager with no substitution windows remaining doesn't get to challenge.
@@jazzx251 If anything, it would be less disruptive. A VAR check can be done at the moment for any infraction the VAR team deems it needs to be checked by the on field referee. This means that in a particularly heated game, VAR will be stopping/starting the game constantly, disrupting the flow of the game. It does so already. But if managers were given a maximum of 1-2 challenges per half, it would seriously curb time wasted. Especially if a manager makes a two challenges that aren't overturned and is left without and challenges for the rest of the half. Could it be manipulated into a time-wasting strategy? Yes, but just about anything can, if you put your mind to it. Would it be more effective than telling one of your players 'Throw yourself on the floor with a pretend cramp?' Probably not. Remember, if you're using it to waste time, you really only get 2 shots at it per half. And if you've successfully appealed 4+ calls from the ref in a half and still have those 2 challenges left over, we really need to be worrying about the refereeing of the match and not the manager using a time delaying tactic, lol. Losing a substitution if the challenge is failed (on top of losing the challenge) could be a good idea.
one issue you don't touch on here, that I think really doesn't help the officials or VAR, is the fact they keep changing the rules or how they want them to be interpreted/implemented, it's no wonder officials make mistakes when they are told to favour the attacker with offsides one week and defenders the next because the FA keeps changing it based on which manager had the biggest hissy fit about it the previous week. so yeah, my solution is; have consistent rules and intepretation/implementation that can't be changed during a season and instead of reviewing every decision, have a challenge system whereby 3 times per match you can challenge an on field call, if you're right you get the challenge back, if you're wrong, you don't. no system is perfect obviously, but imo those two changes would make a huge difference to the perception of VAR.
That would only work if the team challenging would have to give up a penalty or corner if there wrong provided they non challenge team didn't score on the var review if the did the manager gets a yellow card
Another well thought out, well researched and thoroughly enjoyable video. Agreed on all points made.
My favorite part of this was addressing a perceived refereeing bias towards Tottenham of all clubs. Short memories by a lot of "fans"...it was only 4 years ago when Spurs went down a goal within 2 minutes in the most important game in the history of the club because VAR awarded a harsh penalty which wasn't called on the pitch. It doesn't get worse than that, the call changed the game immediately and Spurs fans did not forget this.
Another great video!
I think you should upload these as podcasts on the relevant providers too, as the images are subsidiary to the actual great content
I'm more interested in how VAR works in other leagues rather than the Prem. Feels like every week there's a howler in the Prem but you don't get to see that many from other leagues. Is the error rate lower in the other leagues than the Prem or the same but you don't get to hear about them much simply for it not being the Prem?
It's a big issue in the Scottish Premiership.
So funny the Brits can’t figure out how to use replay in their officiating. Literally everyone else can do it with a considerably less amount of drama lmao
The biggest frustration is offsides. When players are being offside for their fingers and toes being offside it’s gone too far. You don’t gain an advantage by your bloody hand being offside.
It used to be just the torso and that was easy for Lino's to see. Yeah - too complicated now
The balance, reasoning and perspective in this video is refreshing and much needed.
Some brilliant points raised, particularly the exponential increase in scrutiny of referees.
As you pointed out, it was only in 2020 that Hawk Eye failed to detect a legitimate Sheffield United goal in a match against Villa that would finish 0-0 and help Villa to avoid relegation.
The outrage over this VAR human error completely dwarfs that, with many insisting the match should be replayed or that the laws of the game should have been abandoned in order to atone for the injustice suffered by Liverpool - all in the name of 'integrity of the game'!
Although partially explained by the difference in club size between Sheffield United and Liverpool, the increasing outrage is absolutely maddening, peddled by media outlets for profit and social media users who can't resist the temptation of a band wagon.
"playing from the back is woke." That's brilliant, I really hope your fellow Hull City fan actually said that. 😂😂
It should have worked like tennis, teams with challenges, captain or manager is responsible for challenging. They can challenge whatever they want, jota's first yellow could have been challenged.
And this would have given referees less liability, imagine a challenge world, and liverpool hadnt challenged jota's first yellow. Right now instead of calling out the referees bad decision, we would be discussing liverpools poor decision not to challenge.
This would have been much better! Say a team get a corner they shouldnt have, your team hasnt challenged, and they score from that corner, now you will look at your teams inability to challenge rather than the linesman/referee.
Just voted for you man, hope you win. Cheers from the Dc in the US 💪🏽
The videos may be longer than I like, but the commentary is elite I cannot lie, the picture selection & pace just enhances it. It blends altogether nicely and makes up for the long form
I appreciate rugby's TMO, they have the balls to show the referee themselves as they make the decision
To be honest, I like having faith in referees, and I never feel that referees go against our club regularly, though sometimes I do feel that they are going in our favour too often. I don't think that we need VAR as I think it is good to trust the referees.
And i have matches that have been blatantly corrupt for Big Teams. e.g. Barcelona 6-1 v PSG. Goal 5 the ball went to keeper and not a pen. Goal 6 offside.
@@joso7228whit var or not people will cry about the big team anyway.
I knew a guy who refereed a lot of junior football. He used to evaluate his performances by asking, 'Did the team who deserved to win, actually win?' And if the answer was yes he reckoned that on balance he'd probably had a good game.
And I think that as long there are no blatant refereeing howlers that is a good way to judge.
Yeah pretty much, referees just want to do the best at their job, and if a howler is perceived as having been really bad, then they may just get relegated to the Championship for a while, something like that. @@nickvickers3486
Hey bud, really good vid, I'm an advocate for the process being played out for all because if you watch any rugby, the process needing to be understood by all, also makes it easier to understood for the officials too. That being said it's only on TV not in the stadium and the reaction of football fans would be vastly different but the replays should at least be shown on screen. However, I do think that it should be more like rugby when it comes to the Referee being in consultation with the VAR and going to it when he's unsure about a decision using the linesman to help make his decision. The VAR can then come in if there's something that's obviously been missed out entirely. I think that this should be the protocol for every decision barring offsides which should be semi-auto.
Alfie, this video was brilliant. I agree with every point you made so I won't even bother listing my favorite parts. Great work.
greatest footballer ever from every country in Africa
You start with Lesotho or Mauritania
AfrIcA Is a CouNTry
Mark Noble
Yes!
That would be quite a tedious if not impossible task for Alfie.
VAR is absolutely neccessary, without it we'd go back to the era of Hand of God, Henry's handball and several famous ghost goals.
The issue is how to implement it. Semi-automated offside system could be a step in the right direction. Borrowing ideas from other sports like the challenge system would also work.
But when people loudly scream that VAR is evil on its own and it should be scrapped altogether it's like they want us to go back to the caveman era of football when all the people in the world could see the error except the referee.
They want that because they prefer "fun" over fairness. Apparently because human error exists we should'nt try to minimise it as much as possible.
Honestly though having experienced both in person and on tv and being on the right and wrong side of decisions -
I'd much rather the referee get it wrong in the moment and just move on with the match than have something checked over for minutes, sapping the energy out of the game and often still reaching the wrong decision anyway.
It just invites more scrutiny on the decisions refs get wrong that aren't checked by VAR while shifting the blame elsewhere making them harder to criticise when they do make mistakes.
It's an awful system in the ground too - it undermines every decision in the moment as it can be overturned at will, you can't enjoy a goal properly as the lingering doubt that the officials will find something no matter how small to overturn it persists until the joy of scoring is dead and you are left with relief instead that it has been allowed to stand.
While the quality of officiating in the championship is significantly worse than the prem (and that's bad too), it's a lot easier to accept some human error every now and then than it is to see all the tech being available to check every detail and still getting things horribly wrong.
A challenge system would be the solution. If a team feels like the ref got a call wrong, they should be able to challenge it forcing the ref to have another look. Teams would be given a certain amount of challenges that can be made so the burden is on the team who made the call to be sure that the wrong call was made.@@NihilistCrab
I got used to it in European fixtures and then baffled when it wasn't implemented the same way here, it seems to take longer than in Champions League and I don't understand why. I think greater communication might have helped clear up the confusion over the weekend and given the replay it would have been accepted by most.
Ox after Gibbs got sent off: Oi ref, it wasn't him, it was me!
Andre Marriner: Shut up Walcott!
Saudi Arabia are looking to hire some of the best referees for the Saudi Pro League I wonder what will happen to them if they make a mistake like this.😂😂😂
I like the idea of game management, alongside a challenge system with a audio on live games.
Game management because even at Sunday League a decent referee will look at a pitch and the weather as well as how he sees the game and tell you his expectations. You ostensibly have 90 minutes where everyone in that game works together at the same time as two teams competing.
Challenge system via the captain/manager because it codifies a protest and could direct players to think introspectively about what they do. You’re managers going to be furious if you’re adamant you got the ball but actually you were nowhere near it. Umpires in cricket also self refer if they’re not sure and Rugby referees will ask for clarity when they’re not sure. This allows the vast majority of decisions to be directed by the people in the game and not by VAR. This should build on game management rather than take it away. There’s scope for abuse but I think if you limit it to bookings, penalties and offsides it should make that harder to achieve
Audio on live games because in Rugby and Cricket it gives a clear indication as to the driver behind why a decision is being looked at. Take for example if the challenge system exists when Liverpool play Spurs. Diaz scores and it’s flagged offside, the referee halts play for 10 seconds while they line up a restart and Klopp signals for a check. On the audio the referee indicates that Liverpool are challenging the offside and can we get a check to confirm if Liverpool #7 is onside or offside when Liverpool #11 releases the ball. The 4th official relays this check to both managers on the touch line. VAR draws the lines, confirms to the referee that when Liverpool #11 releases the ball Liverpool #7 is onside and you may award a goal. 4th official relays this to both managers as the referee gives the square sign and indicates a goal is scored.
For me, the lack of consistency and answeerability is a big issue, but, more importantly, with VAR EVERY decision will be analysed to death and nothing can be dismissed as human error. In cases where we could just say "meh, it was a close call", now we are splitting hairs, drawing lines etc. and no error can be attributed to an accident
Even semiautomatic offside is all than perfect, because also the machine make a "guessing" based on the data sets. In that way it can suggest the presence of the offside even if it's not clear which frame should be valued as the reference
It probably makes us fans of lower league football more accepting of bad decisions against us, now we know what the soulless alternative is instead. If the Premier League scrapped VAR and we went back to where we were before, people might be annoyed about bad decisions going against them, but also remember what the alternative is.
They'd remember that the obvious handball into the net could have been ruled out if English refrees had actually used the tech given to them?
@@lordpelagius5078Win some you lose some
It’s naive for some to claim this is just a sport. It is now a multi million pound business where ludicrous situations like this can cost managers their jobs and clubs tens of millions of pounds. Also getting something like this blatantly wrong doesn’t just affect the clubs involved. There will be a knock on effect to other clubs. Spurs could cost another team ( not just Liverpool) Champions League qualification or even affect who gets relegated if Spurs or Liverpool were to play a relegation candidate at the end of the season as the need ( or otherwise) for points would be likely to affect their attitude to the match.
I agree. I'm surprised the result of the game isn't being deemed null and void and a replay arranged - that seems like a fair result. Spurs shouldn't be allowed to benefit from a mistake like that.
The laws of the game should also be changed to allow the VARs to correct their mistake - they realised the miscommunication quickly but as play had restarted they couldn't award the goal.
Refereeing mistakes are part of the game unfortunately, if you were to declare every game null and void because of a wrong call that affected the outcome where would it end? Nketiah should have had a red against Spurs a couple weeks ago, should that be replayed too?
you're saying that human beings *should* be perfect. I agree the VAR error for the Diaz goal was pretty unforgiveable but there have been few decisions that bad. maybe we should grudgingly accept that we strive for perfection but can never reach it
@@gronkostapatsoulas8350See where you are coming from but red cards are subjective enough to not be worth annulling results over. This was a very clear communication error and misunderstanding between the referees.The VAR intended to give the goal, but the referee misinterpreted that as confirming their decision of offside.
I also think the Aston Villa v Sheffield United game in 2020 when goal line technology didn't give a Sheffield United goal should have been replayed too. Especially in that case - the point Villa got from a 0-0 draw was enough to relegate Bournemouth.
By saying that you're assuming that there's no other errors in those 31 rounds left to play.
Great video!
A lot of the points you brought up seem to have gone over peoples head, though..
Being a hull fan probably feels so satisfying whenever a good match comes about. Like if you don't win that much, winning ought to feel like the best thing ever, right?
I've been watching both rugby and football since 2003 and also basketball since 2010. In rugby and basketball, I've always seen VAR (Television Match Officer in rugby) being used and the aim isn't to make refereeing perfect. There will always be mistakes and it has been better than ever. Of course, we can improve and we must improve. From our couch, it's easy to say but refs know the laws of football much better than us.
What I want is :
- at least on TV, we must be able to hear the conversation between the main ref and VAR. It happens in rugby and it helped me understanding the game more.
- put the video on the big screens. At least, we don't waste time with the ref running towards the small screen and even his assistants can help him. Besides, fans can see and understand the refs' jobs.
- review the rules. Even with VAR, we need to review the rules and change them in order to make football better.Especially for offsides because it's getting ridiculous.
Finally : I love waiting for a goal by VAR. The best emotions I've had (besides M'bappé's second against Argentina in 2022) are from VAR review of goals/tries. Especially at the last minute of a final. The tension in the stands because you know it can make or break a team. It happened twice and on both occasions, the French team won after this review.
One thing among many that annoys me about VAR is it gives marginal decisions for teams when absolutely nobody is appealing for them. Footballers and fans are not shy when it comes to appealing for things in no uncertain terms. In cricket you have to appeal for something to get it.
At least have a challenges system and don’t forensically analyse every goal, especially when nobody is asking you to.
Napoli this morning
True, I can imagine how many people were checking whether each goal was offside in 1970
In this case of the VAR ref said check complete onside the situation would be different. So maybe adding de conclusion during the communication with the ref can help.
Just voted for you Alfie and thanks for all the great vids!
Personally regarding VAR I think that the on field officials generally do a good enough job. I would keep goal-line tech and maybe bring back the 2 goal-line refs.
I'm necessarily saying scrap VAR but it's use and what the game requires from it really needs to be thought about.
In cricket, rugby and tennis it is usually used for quite fundamental things that onfield officials find difficult to see because they're too fast or their view is obscured, e.g. 'was that a run out?', 'was that serve out?', 'or underneath that heaving mass of bodies was a try scored?'
Tricky football calls are not quite like those, the play is not as quick, at least one official will see everything, and things like offsides and handballs are subjective. Often the rules themselves need to be better.
Also players, managers, fans and media types need to respect the officials more. Sure there are some refs who maybe aren't up to spec but they are brave enough to do it.
If referees didn't receive so much abuse and negative attention, many more talented people would to do it, the talent pool increases and you get better refs.
Yes mistakes are made but the next time you criticise the ref for one slight error, what about your striker who missed 3 sitters, your goalkeeper that couldn't even catch a cold or your manager with no tactical sense whatsoever - blame them! We do get the refs we deserve ultimately
"Everything except the goal line is up to interpretation." No, that goal's onsideness was also not up to interpretation. Maybe, just maybe, we could offload that bit of responsibility from the assistant referee so that they could assist better with on-the-pitch events. This was a completely preventable fuck-up that was caused entirely by human error in VAR room, and *not* by VAR undermining the authority of the on-pitch referees. I know that the replies will be about how this video is about VAR in general, but it was posted right after the Liverpool fuck-up, so I have to assume that you take that into account. As a result of that you are utterly wrong on this.
Honestly, I just wish you don't win that youtuber contest or whatever at this point.
Diaz was clear and obvious he was onside by minimum 2 yards
Such a refreshing take in contrast to Mark Goldbridge and Rory Jennings
When there was first talk about VAR, I thought it would be more of an aid to the on field refs. Something they could use in case they had some doubts about a decision they had to make on the fly. The way it is now, as an extra off screen ref often going against their decisions just feels silly at times. Especially when it's about decisions that are hard to judge on the field. That said, I do still like the idea of a challenge system, if only in order to shut up managers from constantly complaining about the "poor state of reffereeing".
Great video, I agree that the laws are far too subjective for VAR to be effective, especially your point that we can all analyze a slow-motion replay zoomed in and still disagree on our verdicts. Even in the NFL they don't use replay to give or rescind penalties, they only use it for black and white decisions such as out of bounds, or determining catches/fumbles. I miss the days before VAR, I honestly think there was less controversey then vs now. Should have just left it at goal line technology
Maybe those examples are because those ref errors happened in isolation unlike this era where the match officials blunder almost each match day that we are spoilt for choice on which one to pick
This VAR pb is mostly occurent in the EPL. You rarely find this kind of pb in the UCL and other leagues.
Transparency and reasonability is all that we ask for. A lot of calls are not as black and white as fans claim they are, but to make blatantly wrong decisions really hurts fan trust. Make the rules clear and stick to them.
Congratulations on the nomination. I love your deep dives into footballing issues, so please keep up the good work. Have a good day.
I can't believe people aren't talking about the REAL elephant in the room: THE DELAYED FLAG. If I were to tell you that I was going to allow referees to call a penalty every time a player falls down in the box, whether or not the ref is sure an actual foul was committed, would you approve of that? Well, that's effectively what we do when we tell ARs that they can flag any potential offside after the play has concluded. Go back to telling ARs to keep their flag down unless they KNOW the play is offside, and 99% of these problems are solved, and VAR can be used to determine if there is a clear and obvious OFFside rather than having to bear the burden of finding a clear and obvious ONside.
"When they remember to turn it on..." had me 💀
You got my vote Alfie, it's always interesting to hear about stuff I didn't otherwise know about, on top of stuff I have.
Hope you win bruv
Great video, as always. Voted for you mate!
“Playing out from the back is woke” I’m dying at this😂😂😂
Clicked so fast and I'm so early, love the content mate it's so fascinating every time 💖
Totally agree with all this. Plus, what is almost never talked about is how the lack of context in still images and slow motion clips, plus repeating them multiple times, often gives a false impression of the incident in question. Something can look innocuous in real time, and the ref, using their many years' experience (in other words, common sense), sees it as such. Then they are told to look at the monitor, and see what looks like a grievous contravention of the rules played over and over again, with no context.
The other thing I wanted to mention is that there is very little dissent in rugby union, because it is simply not tolerated, even when decisions from the TMO are questionable or open to interpretation. If a player harangues the ref, they get a minimum of a yellow. I'm glad that football is going that way too, especially the WSL where one often sees players immediately carded for dissent. But it needs to be even quicker IMO, especially in the Premier League, and extend to managers even more than currently. It's clear that there is a lot at stake and everyone sees the ref as a weak link where pressure can be brought to bear (indeed it's pretty obvious that some managers actually coach this now).
In conclusion: get rid of VAR and card players for dissent/pressurising the officials much more consistently. They might do the latter but I can't see the former happening unfortunately.
Hi, USA citizen here. Sports here have been using video replay and other referree assisted tech for decades without any real hitch. This whole “controversy” over VAR is just reactionaries being pissy that football is changing, well, anything.
Great Video....as a Leicester City fan this season so far has been a breath of fresh air getting back to football without VAR.
Easiest change is that VAR just says how they would call it. So say its a goal or offside, vs saying ref called it right. The on pitch ref then would know if they should review if it contradicted his/her call
Didn’t the correction of a call post restart happen in 2018 or so to Liverpool V Man City? From the 17:30 talking point
I agree that the automatic offside system works pretty well, but let's not forget that Lautaro's Martinez goal against Saudi Arabia was on-side and the system forgot to account from a defender's position. Still, I believe it's pretty good.
I still have no idea why they went with a from the ground up new system when Rugby Union has had the well established and reliable TMO model. Play play play play play. TMO "is there any reason why I may not award the goal/penalty or send the player off?". Yes/No. Play play play play etc.
I have a video suggestion. It would be a long video requiring a lot of research probably but a very interesting topic. You should pick out the single greatest/most iconic football match from every year since the 80s. Or split it in different parts and cover more time!
I opt for a similar system like rugby and football. Each manager has 2 or 3 VAR moments per match where they can contest the outcome of the ref.
Canno fathom why VAR isn't constantly updating the main ref about his decisions - like corner kicks etc. Either go all the way or don't do it at all
Really hit the major points I think. Mainly that the standard of officiating is way better than it was before, it’s just way easier to scrutinize with 15 ultra HD 60 FPS replays available immediately.
Could it be better? Yes. Should it? Yes.
Is it crisis level compared to 15 years ago when we mostly watched 28 inch CRT televisions with scant few replays? Absolutely not.
Alfie just set himself up for one whopper back of the head punch at Hull’s next home game 😂
one of the best critiques of technology as a whole, I've heard....bravo
always refreshing to hear a level headed take on this issue
Great video Alfie. Refereeing is not difficult, its impossible.
Refs do their best, and do a brilliant job. Mistakes happen, but VAR doesn't get every decision right.... there is so many contradictions with people commenting about it (like the common sense v consistency one mentioned), dont re-ref the whole game, but all areas of the pitch, yellow card decisions etc should be open for checks.
I honesty think we need to just trust the onfield officials who do get such a high percentage of decisions right.... and yes, do away with VAR. And simplify the offside rule (its mental now), punish players that dive (even if they have been fouled), straight reds for argueing with the ref, stopping the clock when the ball goes out..... these would be massive changes but would take 2 weeks to bed in. When players realised diving or argueing would be punished it would stop. Look at the respect players give officials at rugby.... it can happen.
I was a fan but I’m struggling with it tbh. I mean for cases like this Tottenham Liverpool one there are many more with the ‘smaller teams’ which doesn’t get the same coverage. (I would argue Turner taking out Wissa in the Brentford Forest game was arguably more outrageous.) They seem to challenge some things in tiny tiny margins but allow some massive blunders to take place. Having said that we used to get routinely terrible decisions, and I feel like the controversy in games like the livtot one was at one point happening every game. I think the way it’s used should be completely changed, maybe something like tennis where a team can challenge 2 decisions a game or something.
Well to be fair
this specific scenario showcased that it wasn't just VARs fault. The fault was in the lack of communication between the VARs and main ref
in the sense of
main VAR: "the on-field decision was correct"
ref: restarts play
what should've happened is
VAR: "the on-field decision was correct"
ref: "so he was OFFSIDE?"
VAR: "no no he was ONSIDE"
or just
VAR: "Diaz is onside"
instead of saying "the on-field decision was correct"
I voted for you! Hope you win this award for all you've sacrificed for the people's channel!
You convinced me. I do still want semi-automated offsides and goal line tech, but the rest is a Sisyphean endeavor, to say the least.
I'd like to add one thing: The best football team I've ever seen would have been less good in the VAR era. I strongly suspect, although I haven't examined the statistics, that extremely defensive teams, particularly well organized ones, face far more corner kicks, and surrender more corner kick goals than they once did. While corners are not top tier set pieces, they are more desirable than the offside calls linesmen nowadays let go, waiting to bring their flag up only if the ball goes in the net. This often results in a corner, a deep throw, or even a direct free kick which does not trigger VAR review. I'd like the VAR law changed so that the semi automated offsides protocol can be invoked by a linesman's flag on any play that results in an attacking restart. I'd like to see a team take a run at that Chelsea defensive record, but with VAR laws as they are, it's not realistic.
22:37 LMFAO I remember this. 😅😂
Maybe introduce some kind of built in tazer in the players shirts along with a sensor in the ball, so that if they are ground they'll just drop to the floor shaking?