You do realize islam has nothing to do with Christianity? The pre Islamic arabs were not Christians and had nothing to do with non nicean sects of christianity
I’m begging you man, a usefulcharts video on the different off shoots of Christianity would be amazingggggggggggg, every single one of your videos are incredible and whenever I show them to any of my friends in the faith (Jews, Christian’s, and Muslims), they’re alway blown away by the level of detail and accuracy and I feel like there’s no TH-camr who could do the Christian’s schisms as much Justice to the topic as you would. Love your work man!
As someone with no connection to Mormonism and only experienced it through television, thank you for breaking it down from a secular point of view. I always appreciate how respectful you are of all of these faith-based theories and discussions.
He may be respectful and the first part is pretty accurate but when he actually talks about the Book of Mormon and how it came about, he has a lot of things very wrong.
As an Ex-Mormon who left, here's a word of advice, When the missionaries knock at your door, RUN. They may seem nice, but that's because it's what their coercion book, "preach my gospel" tells them to do. It's not genuine.
@@GldnClaw Hypocrisy, False Prophecies, and The fact that all my personal info was o the church app. So tell me, after that, why is it that you still chose to follow a church led by corrupt human beings?
I read the Book of Mormon maybe ten or so times growing up, spent hours of private study time and went to classes dedicated to studying every chapter and verse for hidden divine wisdom (not at all a unique experience in the LDS Church). The discussion here about how its contents could be explained from a secular perspective were things that I came across from time to time online, but they always seemed forbidden and transgressive. I was a little scared and worried that someone nefarious was trying to trick me. In my questioning and worrying I could have been well served by a video like this delivered clearly and neutrally from a third party coming from a place of pure academic curiosity. Seeing something like this now feels like a nostalgic bit of closure now that I've spent most of my adult life outside the church, and (much like you mentioned) I can now look back with a little more appreciation of how such a strange and unique piece of 19th century American literature happened to play such a large role in my life. Great video as always!
Is it not ironic...that the people you thought were trying to trick you...weren't? And it turned out...the people who actually tricked you...were the people making you feel as if someone else...was trying to trick you. Irony...at its best.
@@baberoot1998 Tbh, I don't think it's entirely fair to say they were trying to trick OP. Many members grew up in the church, and so belief in the Book of Mormon is often a cornerstone of their sense of self and belonging. Teaching it to others is probably the most logical thing to do for them
It is sad to think someone would say this is not biased. Is that the state of our education? It may have a non-biased tone. All suggestions made are one-sided at best and cherry-picked at worst. I guess this guy says he is a theist. So he isn’t actually analyzing literature or any other evidence. There are nearly 100 words in the Book of Mormon that can clearly be traced to ancient languages. These were words not in any Bible or Hebrew text at the time. I don’t think Joseph Smith could have “guessed” so many correctly. Furthermore there are the Chiasmus. They were not widely known about at the time. There are other hebraisms that are not in the King James Bible (ie the use of thieves vs robbers) the KJV translators use interchangeably but are clearly different Hebrew concepts. This is known now that Hebrew is actually well studied. I could go on. Why does the Book of Mormon say Moses disappeared when the Bible at the time didn’t? It was pretty bold for Joseph Smith to contradict the Bible. Since then accounts have come forward indeed suggesting Moses was translated. Cleary there is strong evidence there was multiple ancient influences in the Book of Mormon. Influences not present at the time it was published. I could go on. This video does a decent job at parroting old tropes and pretends to throw in an occasional positive comment. It is not cerebral or intellectual. It is tired and boring and designed to flatter and calm both the listener and the producer. What did modern population size have to do with anything? I love how the narrator brought up the Pearl of Great Price (nothing to do with the Book of Mormon) and then failed to bring up the Book of Moses (in the same book) that has pages and pages of stories of Enoch. Stories that have only since been discovered in the Dead Sea scrolls etc. What influenced that? BTW if you are interested in the Book of Abraham see books by Yale Egyptologist John Gee. One-sided at best. Cherry-picked at worst. Sincere effort: minimal. I get it. The Book of Mormon is hard to believe in and yet it “hisses” forth; forcing the people to accept or reject it. I don’t think that is a reason to be biased. Also, I agree with your comment that most Latter-day Saints treat information like this as “taboo”. I would say most Latter-day Saints are fairly biased as well. As you pointed out, that aspect of Latter-day Saint culture it is not helpful or healthy. Let’s not pretend this video is close to impartial. Again that would not be helpful or healthy.
Being a Malaysian 🇲🇾, I spat out my drink when I heard Malaysia as a setting for the book of Mormon. I never knew about it until now. Great and informative video!
mark twain described it's literary value, as follows: "The book is a curiosity to me, it is such a pretentious affair, and yet so "slow," so sleepy; such an insipid mess of inspiration. It is chloroform in print. If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was a miracle - keeping awake while he did it was, at any rate.”
Mark Twain didn't look into it closely enough. I will grant that its pseudo-King James style is often ponderous and cloying. But Grant Hardy has done a fascinating study of its narratology. The main narrators give their personal stories as well as larger-scale accounts of their society and doctrinal content, and those three components, well, don't always all neatly pull in the same direction. The narration is structured to draw your eye away from the tensions among them, but read it "against the grain" to pick them up, and there's startling human depth, pathos, and irony beneath the faith-promoting surface. Now, if you go for theology, it's ... not univocal there either. And at one point one of its prophets (Abinadi) just casually blows up a foundational presupposition of centuries of soteriological debate (the fixedness of the Son's nature), which is fun (if you're a turbodork).
And Twain was a humorist, first and foremost. If he couldn't make a joke out of something, it was of no value to him. I am also going to note that if he is going to compare TBOM to "chloroform in print" he should have mentioned The Book of Ether! This was a totally missed opportunity and shows that Twain was off his form at that particular time!
Even Joseph Smith doesn't deny that the Book of Mormon was anything short of a miracle. To be able to explain everything about it from an intellectual or secular point of view without a reasonable doubt would disqualify it as being miraculously conceived. Yet Joseph never deviated from the explanation that it was given him to translate by the "power of God." Mister Twain, on the point of a miracle, we don't disagree! On the point about it being sleepy, like Christ through his prophets have said time and time again, "their ears are dull of hearing" "listening they hear not, and seeing they see not!" "They need to be nursed by milk before they can eat meat". We are all at varying degrees in our understanding of God and Godly things. But God gifts only those who love him the ability to see things that are largely unseen/unheard by the majority. Many are called, but only few are chosen. To me Joseph Smith was undoubtedly chosen, and like others before him, died a martyr to bring a message of truth to the earth.
Btw Mark Twain, what's so sleepy about learning that Christ is the Savior of the world, and that children who die before the age of accountability, like my baby daughter? It's a book that brings hope to those who are seeking for a hopeful message in a world that is largely unforgiving and cannot offer any consolation except for, 'my daughter is dead and her body is gone, eaten by worms.' End of story. Where's the inspiration in that? Where's the meaning in life?
I would absolutely love to see a presentation on the many Indian texts, especially the Vedas, but I understand that they're a *very* broad topic that may be too much to broach in videos like these
I learned a lot from your Q'uran video, have to admit that as a practicing LDS Christian I was a little nervous about your announcement that you would be making this video, but I figured that if you were as respectful about it as you were in the Q'uran video I'd give it a go. Thankfully you did not disappoint!
@Bryce Calabaza We believe that Jesus is God like other Christians which is the definition of Christianity. Like mentioned in the video we are just not Nicene Christians. That like saying early Christians are not Christians and therefore are heretical.
@Bryce Calabaza You may no longer be an LDS Christian in name, but you still have the same arrogant belief that you have all the truth. That's something I've grown to really dislike about us.
Matt, another job well done! I'm a Jewish college student studying history, and your channel has influenced my love of the subject for years now. Another interesting topic could be the Baha'i Faith, I'd love to learn more about them!
Very well done! I am a person who was raised Mormon, was very devout into my twenties, and still has close friends and family who are Mormon. My own change in beliefs corresponded with a deep dive into Mormon history that lasted years. It is quite impressive how you condense a fairly comprehensive overview into such a brief video, and it miraculously still manages to make sense!
This contains one of the best short summaries of the structure and basic story of the Book of Mormon that I have ever seen done by an outsider. Excellent work.
As a member of the LDS Church, I found your presentation of the Book of Mormon from a faithful perspective, quite accurate. I also appreciate your historical view of the origins of the Book of Mormon.
@@hanz3967 : unfortunetly this is the first unappropriate comment I found so far on this great channel. I do not see the benefit of offending people randomly.
Honest question Mr Lund; If you today profess as a member of the LDS church, how do you reconcile the reality of what Matt showed us here in his video? Does the reality of the knowledge that circa 589 BC (much less 3000 BC) travel to America ... simply didnt happen in reality ... and the likelihood of 18 century American individuals literally 'coming up with' a religion to suit the times ... you can see where I'm going here. Your belief is provably false in reality historically, based on 'plates' that likely never existed in the first place, and professed by creators whos primary interest was clearly self aggrandisement? How do you justify being a member of a group that has no clear theological basis beyond literally ... a guy ... writing a book with his head stuck in a hat. If Matt here was 'accurate', how does that transform into a basis for a belief?
@@hanz3967 hey atheist here, have you not noticed the comments here? They show a lot of common courtesy, do you not know how to take social cues? If you don't then learn.
@@hanz3967 - at least in all of those examples, there are also unattached scholastic evidence of Jesus existing, Mohamed existing etc, as well (to the point) as secular evidence of their movements and actions and the groups of people following them. We also have parallel historical and archaeological facts that back up the environments and worlds they were in. How they related to their world and others in it, are generally in compliance with historical knowledge of the world around them. With Mormon we have none of that, except as Matt points out an early America tender and ready to believe in ... something ... of a society. Nothing prior to Smith can be proven historically about America, nothing.
@@hanz3967 I know about what a lot of religious and colonialism did, I am a New Zealand Maori our history with the English is similar but I don't hold it against the new generation but I do want them to learn both sides of history. If there's one thing I have learnt through history is that no culture is without it's atrocious crimes against a different people group. So please let me give you one piece of advice look at your own cultures history first, make sure to look at the good and the bad and it will give you a reason to be humble.
This was fantastic!! I dedicated the first 25yrs of my life to this religion and this was a beautiful overview. I wish this overview existed when I was a kid.
As an ex-Mormon, did he leave out important books? I thought Pearl of Great Price was another requirement? Married a Mormon, so I had to learn a few things, but didn't convert.
@@christopherwoods5150 Yeah the Pearl of Great Price and doctrine and covenants are important too. But this video was specifically addressing the Book of Mormon and it's history.
I've been to the Hill Cumorah, it's beautiful. I fell down it and have a scar on my knee now, so I tell people I was attacked by an ancient prophet as a transition into an explanation of our culture and history. My 7th great-grandfather converted to the church soon after it was founded, and his son was one of the founders of Salt Lake City and also the University of Utah. There is a lot of stigma around people of our beliefs, so I'm glad you covered this topic so respectfully. I know there are some really crazy Mormons out there, but like any other religion there are also some really great people as well. This is a great video that makes some great points while not being dismissive of our culture and beliefs. Thank you.
@@kekzealot3568 I am. It's different just based on who your parents are. Some continue to love and support their children no matter what. Others will ostracize and exclude from family gatherings.
@@kekzealot3568 I'm an ex-mormon. I've definitely seen a mix of support and shunning. Church leaders often give reasons for why members leave, and they're rarely, if ever, reasons that leave the person who leaves with any dignity. The assumption is usually that the person was lazy, wanted to sin, offended by someone in the church, or deceived by Satan. It's hard for many members to accept that a person left simply because that's where they felt the evidence or even their morals led them.
@@kekzealot3568 no I am not, and believe it or not, most of the members feel sad when a friend or family member leaves their church but the majority of members don’t treat us “Jack Mormons” who have left the church, any differently. There aren’t any rules or even recommendations in the church doctoring instructing members to cut ties with friends or family members who aren’t members anymore, even if their loved ones speak out about the Mormons. But there are people who let it rip their families apart
As an ex-Jehovah's Witness, I would love to see you cover them and their translations (I hear they've got a new one since I left) of the Bible. They also do not believe in The Trinity and believe all other Abrahamic religions to be misguided. Anyhow, I think it'd be interesting to see an academic breakdown of their history and worked happily answer questions about their beliefs, though I am several years removed nowadays.
@C thanks! Though the lack of birthday parties never bothered me. The main negative was not getting to date as a teen and having to figure everything out in my twenties that everone else already knew.
As a Mormon myself, this was very well done Matt!! There were even some new things I learned, like the Malaysian theory I personally have always understood that nothing in the Book or Mormon or Bible for that matter should be taken as unequivocal fact, but rather used as a guide. Keep up the great work my friend!!
@@peggymattie5191 Why must bigots like you always target people who believe in different things than you? I am a Christian, but I am gay. Does that make me not a Christian? No! Who are you to judge someone based on what they believe in? Read Matthew 7:1-3. Also, didn't Jesus say "Love thy neighbor as thyself, that is the greatest commandment of all"? We are all human beings, fellow travelers to the grave. Why can't we just let people live their lives the way they want to as long as they aren't hurting you?
@@peggymattie5191 did you… not watch the video? Look at the graphic shown at 3:15. The creator doesn’t say that it’s another testament, just another branch off of the “early Christian” family of beliefs. Also, the commenter that started this thread never said the Book of Mormon is a New Testament. They just presented the idea/belief that these ancient writings shouldn’t be taken as fact, but read for the overarching lessons they can teach us, similar to how we the lessons fictional books can try to convey. Jesus fucking Christ can we have some listening/reading comprehension anymore?
@@RiskyOpinions You are no better than her. Just keep your opinions to yourself. Didn't any of you learn that if you have nothing nice to say, don't say it at all?
This is generally very good, but the section about early Mormon history felt a bit rough. Identifying Sidney Rigdon as a "helper" who could have helped create the Book of Mormon is something of a trope but untenable historically: Sidney Rigdon didn't meet Joseph Smith until December 1830, after the publication of the Book of Mormon.
@@majenharden I think it is that there are a few eye witnesses that put rigdon in New York with smith before the attested first meeting. These are circumstantial at best but not out of the realm of possibility
Most of these conspiracy theories rely on the assumption that the Book of Mormon is anything to be impressed by. It's an extremely unimpressive book that someone with a middle school education and an overactive imagination could have easily winged out.
@@mathewfinchhave you personally read it? It seems like it would be pretty obvious if that were the case, and there wouldn't be an entire religion built around it...?
God created man, man created religion! God created man to serve Him, man created religion for its followers to serve. Religious men serve religion more than they serve God. Jesus wants us to follow Him, not religion. Jesus said I Am the way, not religion is the way. Jesus said Follow Me, not follow me then pick some brand of worldly religion to follow also. Jesus never followed a religion. In fact Jesus was against the religious people of His day and He even went as far as to call them the children of the devil. The 12 disciples never followed religion, they only followed Jesus. So why is it that Mormons and other religious people believe they need to create or join a religion???? People seek after religion because Jesus and the Gospel are no longer enough for them. As Jesus is no longer enough for them they create a religion to follow. It is like the people of Moses' day, where the people created a golden calf and worshiped it. Mormons have set their religion before them like an idol. They worship it and they defend it. Mormons need their book of Mormon because they believe that the Bible which contains all that Jesus did and taught is not enough for them. Mormons believe "church" = a religious institution Christians know "church" = people, followers of Jesus, His sheep. Mormons are not Christians. They put their religion first and Jesus last. Mormons are Mormon first and Christians second. Mormons will always defend their religion because they hold it closer to their heart than they do Jesus and His Gospel. Mormons are the most deceived church upon the earth. Mormons belong to: The Church Of Joseph Smith of Latter Day Deceived The Book Of Mormon is The Most Corrected Book Upon The Earth The Book Of Mormon is Another Deception Of The Anti Christ The Book Of Mormon is Joseph's Myth Christians will always attack religion because IT is not of God. Mormons will always defend their religion because THEY are not of God. Religious people always need a religion to go through to get to God. Christians only need Jesus to get to Him and the Father. Any time that a church tells you that you have to go through them to get to God it is usually a cult. When Mormons bear testimonies it is more so to convince EACH OTHER that their religion is true than to bear witness or convince non believers. Mormons spend so much of their time bearing testimonies on the book of mormon being true and their church being true. Christians already know that the bible is true and we know that anyone who follows Jesus are His true church. Christians just get on with teaching the gospels and all that is contained within the bible. Mormons just continue trying to convince everyone that their book of Mormon is true rather than devoting all their time to teaching anything out of it. Mormons believe they can be married for all eternity. The bible tells us that there is NO marriage beyond this life. It also tells us that there is neither male nor female. Mormons choose to believe fables over the truth which is the Holy Bible. Jesus leads to salvation. Joseph leads to damnation. So Mormons, who will you choose? Jesus or Joseph?
I really love how respectful you are when talking about many different religions. You are a clear example how these discussions should happen in our daily lives. Thank you :)
I love your video style, measured and steady and always easy to understand. And the content is always quality! I'll be sharing this with a few friends who are interested in this topic.
I'm Braziliam. From the very little I've heard from American entertainment productions (like movies, series and even TH-cam videos), I've always thought of mormons as a regular branch of protestant Christianity, but more "radical", "fundamentalists" or "conservantive". I'd NEVER imagined it would remotely envolve Hebrews and Jesus himself in the Americas, let alone envolving the Native Americans. I'm absolutely blown away by this! Thank you so much! Now I'm so curious to find out what they believe Jesus did here in the Americas and how they think of him differently.
Basically establish his church: preform miracles (healing the sick, curing blindness or lameness and the like), call 12 disciples, preach a sermon similar to the sermon on the mount in the new testament, give bread and wine like the last supper and command the people to hold communion (although mormons call it "the sacrament" rather than communion) once a week, quoted a couple old testament prophets etc. Mormons often compare the part of the book where Jesus visits the Americas (3rd Nephi chapters 11-30) to the gospels in the New Testament
Pretty similar stuff that Jesus did elsewhere. The only difference I can think of is that Jesus claimed that he has many other groups of followers and more scriptures would come forward besides the Bible & BoM
The Book of Mormon asserts that because indigenous Americans are descendants of ancient Israelites, they had prophets that prophesied of the coming of Jesus. And saw signs of Jesus' birth, and death. When Jesus was resurrected and appeared to his disciples in Judea, he left telling them, "other sheep I have, which are not of this fold". Mormons assert this is a reference to the people in the Americas who were following Hebrew traditions. In the Book of Mormon, Jesus appears to the people in the Americas, establishes his church in the same organization as the Judean church, with 12 apostles chosen from among the Nephites. He preaches the sermon on the mount to them, which is mirrored by the passages in the New Testament, with minor changes. He institutes communion (called the sacrament by Mormons), he heals the sick, blesses the children, and then leaves by ascension back into heaven. The period after is described as a period of peace that lasted 400 years, with people having no divisions, no "ites", and lived under a sort of communalism. But people started to divide themselves with believers and non-believers, and 400 years after the coming of Christ they have a great war where the believers are all destroyed. Also an important distinction, Mormons believe the Christian church fell away from the true way. By the time the Catholic church was organized the true church was lost in both the Americas and in the old world. Hence why Joseph Smith was the prophet that restored the true church of Jesus Christ.
What do native Americans have to say about the Mormon view of their history? Is there anything at all in Native American oral traditions that is suggestive of an American Jesus? Or A church of Jesus in America?
The Salvation Army would be a good one. Most people think of their charities but rarely do they think of how the church works, its foundations with William Booth and its use of a military structure.
I'd love to see you do the history of the American Baptists. I did a report on it a couple decades ago and it was very interesting and I wish I had kept my notes. Better yet, I'd rather have a quick summary from someone as educated as you going through the origins and controversies.
This 100 times ! I'd love to get a timeline of the diversity of American Protestant denomination. There's a lot of interesting history there to break down
I've been a Mormon all my life and still am now, and i think you did a great job on this video. Very neutral, informative, and focused on the facts. You don't tell us what to believe but instead present the known facts and theories from those facts. Thank you for taking the time to research this.
I converted to the church at 19 and don't think it was very neutral. Talking about treasure digging or the Book of Abraham were completely unneccesary to explaining the Book of Mormon itself.
@fbi9792 I agree with you about that but also just saying if you look on youtube for content about the LDS church about 90% of it is just people yelling that its a cult and that Joseph Smith is a liar and all that So seeing this is definently a lot more neutral than pretty much everything else
God created man, man created religion! God created man to serve Him, man created religion for its followers to serve. Religious men serve religion more than they serve God. Jesus wants us to follow Him, not religion. Jesus said I Am the way, not religion is the way. Jesus said Follow Me, not follow me then pick some brand of worldly religion to follow also. Jesus never followed a religion. In fact Jesus was against the religious people of His day and He even went as far as to call them the children of the devil. The 12 disciples never followed religion, they only followed Jesus. So why is it that Mormons and other religious people believe they need to create or join a religion???? People seek after religion because Jesus and the Gospel are no longer enough for them. As Jesus is no longer enough for them they create a religion to follow. It is like the people of Moses' day, where the people created a golden calf and worshiped it. Mormons have set their religion before them like an idol. They worship it and they defend it. Mormons need their book of Mormon because they believe that the Bible which contains all that Jesus did and taught is not enough for them. Mormons believe "church" = a religious institution Christians know "church" = people, followers of Jesus, His sheep. Mormons are not Christians. They put their religion first and Jesus last. Mormons are Mormon first and Christians second. Mormons will always defend their religion because they hold it closer to their heart than they do Jesus and His Gospel. Mormons are the most deceived church upon the earth. Mormons belong to: The Church Of Joseph Smith of Latter Day Deceived The Book Of Mormon is The Most Corrected Book Upon The Earth The Book Of Mormon is Another Deception Of The Anti Christ The Book Of Mormon is Joseph's Myth Christians will always attack religion because IT is not of God. Mormons will always defend their religion because THEY are not of God. Religious people always need a religion to go through to get to God. Christians only need Jesus to get to Him and the Father. Any time that a church tells you that you have to go through them to get to God it is usually a cult. When Mormons bear testimonies it is more so to convince EACH OTHER that their religion is true than to bear witness or convince non believers. Mormons spend so much of their time bearing testimonies on the book of mormon being true and their church being true. Christians already know that the bible is true and we know that anyone who follows Jesus are His true church. Christians just get on with teaching the gospels and all that is contained within the bible. Mormons just continue trying to convince everyone that their book of Mormon is true rather than devoting all their time to teaching anything out of it. Mormons believe they can be married for all eternity. The bible tells us that there is NO marriage beyond this life. It also tells us that there is neither male nor female. Mormons choose to believe fables over the truth which is the Holy Bible. Jesus leads to salvation. Joseph leads to damnation. So Mormons, who will you choose? Jesus or Joseph?
Great review of the Book of Mormon storyline. I appreciate the respecrful and pragmatic approach you take with your videos. It makes them easy to watch even if I dont agree with everything said. Both books mentioned in this video that could have neen the basis for Joseph Smith when writing the Book of Mormon have been shown by LDS scholars to be a big stretch. Considering that Joseph Smith was practically illiterate, as explained by his wife who taught school at one point, its highly unlikely he could write such a massive book in a timespan of 90 days which is how long it took. Translating an existing ancient record is a semsible explanation. I am a practicing member of the LDS faith but I still enjoyed this and other videos you create. Thanks!
The book View of the Hebrews actually bears testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon from start to finish. As a Mormon, I loved the book, thanks for sharing it on your video. See what many native american tribes believed: "Whence their ideas that their ancestors once had the book of God; and then were happy; but that they lost it; and then became miserable; but that they will have this book again at some time?" That's why Oliver Cowdery offered to help Joseph, because he read this book and he knew that Joseph was translating something special, that the native americans believed to be the Book of God. Just amazing!
I have learned so much from this channel 💜💜💜 You do a phenomenal job of cutting up giant religious concepts into bite-sized pieces that I can comprehend and build from. I was raised in a non-religious household. I never took interest in the Bible (or any other religious text for that matter), so I never learned the stories and the relationships. I appreciate your hard work! Keep at it! 💜
As a former Mormon I found your research and the presentation extremely informative. I left the "church" before apologists came up with the new revisionist interpretations of the Lamanites that you mention, and I was unaware of Grant Palmer's "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins." I grew up on the property next to Ann Lee's Shaker settlement in Watervliet, New York and later lived in the burned out district of New York so I was well aware of the mystic traditions that pervaded the homegrown religions in rural upstate New York during the Second Great Awakening. I was twice a performer in the Hill Cumorah Pageant and would mention that the numerous myths associated with the hill have been found by archeologists to be bogus. I would like to point out that the 1611 KJV was not only an inspiration to the Book of Mormon, but there are many passages directly plagiarized from it. I haven't made a count of them myself, but someone found that "twenty-seven chapters in the KJV of the Bible are repeated almost verbatim in the 239 chapters of the Book of Mormon." Also, in the slide comparing the size of religious groups the PEW Research Center now considers the non-religiously affiliated or "nones" to be a religious group that outnumbers Baptists, Methodists, Mormons, etc. And just a pet peeve. An irritation I find in the nomenclature used by both the media and religionists is to refer to groups like the Warren Jeffs' group as "cults" yet they refer to those that have have grown in both numbers and social acceptance as "churches." Thank you for the great work you do in preparing and executing these educational timelines.
I am not a LDS but was totally enthralled by your dissertation of the Mormon religion. WOW!!! The Best I’ve Ever heard!!! Brilliant!!! Incredible!!! You are amazing !!! Keep on doing what you’re doing. God bless you and your family my friend!!!🤷🏽♂️🤷🏽♂️🤷🏽♂️
As always, a carefully considered and respectful approach. Truly appreciated. I also would be interested if you looked at the religious texts from the Indian subcontinent.
As a member of the LDS church this was great. Thanks for the respectful approach. I know you only broke down the major groups LDS , Community of Christ, and Fundamentalist groups but there are several others most are branches in the Fundamentalist branch. There are other break away groups from the Community of Christ. Essentially conservative members left as the Community of Christ became more liberal.
As a member of the church, I honestly was going in with a bit of uncertainty of whether it would be the usual "No evidence, church bad, bla bla bla stuff." But I got to be honest, this was respectful of our material while being critical in several aspects. And it does make sense outside of having faith in the church for this view to be exposed. Anyway, thank you for the great video.
_... the usual "No evidence, church bad, bla bla bla stuff."_ I can't speak for your experience, but Matt's not like that. In all his videos, he's respectful to the subject, whatever religion, sect, or cult it may be. He has to be, living in a glass house as he is! 😂
@Bryce Calabaza With so many people claiming to present the Truth and most saying different things. Then I say your comment is uninformed. As there is evidence and science and historical findings match the Book of Mormon much more closely in 2022 than they did in 1830. Read stuff presented by those who believe in it. You might be quite surprised. Cities, highways, vast trade networks, writing, advanced culture, accurate description of middle eastern Bedouin life. All of which was contrary to common knowledge of the 1820s.
Small typo error at 24:23. The range for "Mormons settle in Utah" shown spanning from 1847 to... 1847 Not sure if this is a big enough deal to warrant a correction but I'm pretty sure you intended a different year there, yes? Either way, this video is amazing and I'm so glad that people like you do what you do. We are lucky to have Matt Baker!!!
Thank you for a very interesting and informative and respectful approach to explaining the Book of Mormon. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS/MORMON) for over 30 years and I learned things.
Thank you for the video. As an active and practicing Latter-day Saint, I appreciate it. It would have been nice to have a little more on the witnesses rather than a sort of backhanded dismissal of them. The first 12 minutes or so are really well done in my opinion, with you doing a good job summarizing the basics of the Book of Mormon narrative. It does feel a little more all over the place as you cover the history of the church and its offshoots briefly, and almost feels like it veers a little into “hit piece” territory as if you feel obligated to counter the traditional narrative, rather than just share it for what it is. For instance, including references to the Book of Abraham seemed abrupt. And of course some may disagree with you starting out with the Trinity as the key point of divergence with traditional Christianity. I think belief in and acceptance of modern prophetic revelation (of which the Book of Mormon is a part) is one that more Latter-day Saints, from early on until now, would recognize as a more significant divergence.
His lack of a critical examination of the actual historical arguments (i.e. from an unbiased perspective) was definitely surprising considering the tone of most of his other videos. He basically dismissed any research not aligned with his description in the video as non-academic. But the video was actually pretty good.
Been an LDS member my whole life. Great video! The last bit where you refer to where Joseph could've been inspired to write the Book of Mormon from is insightful, but as a member, we believe he translated the record through divine intervention. However, the language he translated it into could've been inspired by the books you mentioned. Thanks for being respectful!
Your channel is just phenomenal. I appreciate you so much. You are always so respectful as you present the full picture and I wish this could be provided to every young person. I bought your book as an effort to support. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise and for your thorough, patient research! 😅
From my studies, I seem to remember that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon in a matter of a few months. He never had his scribe read back to him what he had previously written but continued the translation right were he left off. There is no problem with continuity in the Book nor are there discrepancies or even broken plots or unfinished stories, which would be amazing and possibly impossible for a writer to do
It would be cool if you covered the history of the SDA church since it’s one of the main denominations that spring from the Great Awakening. As a former SDA member, I always found the history of the church fascinating. Maybe you could even do a series on the American Christian denominations like JW, SDA, Christ Science, etc.
I would love to see the history of SDA as well. Im not an SDA but i do have a lot of SDAs in my family clan and i studied in an adventist-run university. In our curriculum, we have 4 classes of adventist theology. One here is called "Denominational History" which tackles about the history of SDA church. There are parts in the church history that made me do a 10th read because it's unique yet unbiblical, such as the investigative judgement, the entry of the room of holy of holies, soul sleep, tall jovian people and they're envy at us, and EGWs counsels that are now debunked. However, this university still follows the debunked teachings of EGW and treats it as the revelation from God. They see people who debunked her teachings as an anti-SDA even the de bunkers are SDAs themselves. Even so, the story of EHG from getting hit by a stone on her head to become EGW and proclaimed that she is the messenger of God even she copied majority of her writings from other writers, is fascinating and good read. Not to be followed, but just as good read, to kill time.
Yes, please give a similar run through the general Adventist movement and Ellen Whites writings. I realised during your respons video to your videos that you have been brought up in a church influenced by the Adventist movement. Being brought up in the Seventh Day Adventist Church i just recently started to be aware of the part of the history surrounding the church that is not thought within the church itself.
I love that you declare your perspective up front. I happen to share it mostly, being a pretty secular Christian myself, but your commitment to academic honesty as demonstrated by declaring it to people with other perspectives is commendable.
I find all of these analyses fascinating, thank you for doing them. I had a friend in college who was Baha'i, he was reluctant to talk about his religion since they have a restriction from proselytizing. I think it could do with a good third party analysis for people though.
As an Exmormon, I grew up in the LDS faith, spent my childhood adhering to Mormon cultural norms, reading the BoM & Bible, and attending LDS Semenary & Institute classes. After leaving the church (socially at first, then later officially) I have spent about 15 years reading everything I can on the origins of Mormonism and Joseph Smith’s life. With all that said, this video is probably the best summary of the Book or Mormon and it’s origins I’ve come across that doesn’t have any ulterior motives and simply lays out the facts. Well done, and thank you!
Really well done as always 👏 I found the mention of the book at the end interesting because as an ex-Mormon I would agree with Palmer's view on it. Many people argue that the creation of Mormonism was a scam to get wealth or women, while Mormons question that asking "what did they really gain", but I think if you look at the other writings by the founders of Mormonism, the stuff in Pearl of Great Price in particular (kinda surprised the other two books weren't touched on), you kinda get a sense that they believed in what they were doing even if they knew the BoM itself wasn't historically true. It is similar to what you said in the Bible series that writers would sometimes knowingly make up stories or exaggerate existing stories for the purpose of spreading a specific message. For Mormonism, I think that message was one that included some emerging American values of the time like freedom of religion which is enshrined in Mormonism, Articles of Faith 11 (Pearl of Great Price), as well as a greater focus on personal spirituality and forgiveness over social law and punishment. The beginning of Mormon history according to it's founders starts by saying that Joseph Smith was confused and dissatisfied with all of the emerging denominations at the time and decided to take the matter to God through prayer, thus leading to Moroni's visit and the subsequent revelation of the tablets. I do believe that Mormonism was founded on that dissatisfaction and a desire to do better, as far as they saw it.
If one thinks of the BoM as aspirational sex fantasy for men running the world it makes perfect sense. Even today, non Mormons always wonder about the sex paractices of Mormons. They are viewed a s a sex cult.
I’m a Mormon too but just to humor you: they gained practically a whole kingdom, hundreds of billions of dollars, a militia and power, just sayin. None of that really matters though because ultimately the message is don’t do things that are bad for you or society 😂😂
I am a devout and practicing Latter-day Saint. I was skeptical on how accurate this would be. I was blown away at how you very accurately described the history and family trees of the Book of Mormon something that I am just fully understanding after being a member my entire life. While presenting scholarly takes on possible sources you do so very respectfully and carefully. So many other videos bash the church and the members.
God created man, man created religion! God created man to serve Him, man created religion for its followers to serve. Religious men serve religion more than they serve God. Jesus wants us to follow Him, not religion. Jesus said I Am the way, not religion is the way. Jesus said Follow Me, not follow me then pick some brand of worldly religion to follow also. Jesus never followed a religion. In fact Jesus was against the religious people of His day and He even went as far as to call them the children of the devil. The 12 disciples never followed religion, they only followed Jesus. So why is it that Mormons and other religious people believe they need to create or join a religion???? People seek after religion because Jesus and the Gospel are no longer enough for them. As Jesus is no longer enough for them they create a religion to follow. It is like the people of Moses' day, where the people created a golden calf and worshiped it. Mormons have set their religion before them like an idol. They worship it and they defend it. Mormons need their book of Mormon because they believe that the Bible which contains all that Jesus did and taught is not enough for them. Mormons believe "church" = a religious institution Christians know "church" = people, followers of Jesus, His sheep. Mormons are not Christians. They put their religion first and Jesus last. Mormons are Mormon first and Christians second. Mormons will always defend their religion because they hold it closer to their heart than they do Jesus and His Gospel. Mormons are the most deceived church upon the earth. Mormons belong to: The Church Of Joseph Smith of Latter Day Deceived The Book Of Mormon is The Most Corrected Book Upon The Earth The Book Of Mormon is Another Deception Of The Anti Christ The Book Of Mormon is Joseph's Myth Christians will always attack religion because IT is not of God. Mormons will always defend their religion because THEY are not of God. Religious people always need a religion to go through to get to God. Christians only need Jesus to get to Him and the Father. Any time that a church tells you that you have to go through them to get to God it is usually a cult. When Mormons bear testimonies it is more so to convince EACH OTHER that their religion is true than to bear witness or convince non believers. Mormons spend so much of their time bearing testimonies on the book of mormon being true and their church being true. Christians already know that the bible is true and we know that anyone who follows Jesus are His true church. Christians just get on with teaching the gospels and all that is contained within the bible. Mormons just continue trying to convince everyone that their book of Mormon is true rather than devoting all their time to teaching anything out of it. Mormons believe they can be married for all eternity. The bible tells us that there is NO marriage beyond this life. It also tells us that there is neither male nor female. Mormons choose to believe fables over the truth which is the Holy Bible. Jesus leads to salvation. Joseph leads to damnation. So Mormons, who will you choose? Jesus or Joseph?
Interesting. I hadn't thought about it like you presented, the historical developments along with the mythology helps a lot in the understanding. I'm not Mormon, having been Roman Catholic for many years. I converted to Wicca in my mid-30s and when I was teaching, I had a two week class I taught on comparative religions, since I believe that you really shouldn't go into a religion without knowing what else is out there. I'm also a historian and I find historical religious development very interesting. I just found this channel and have spent several hours today digging through the videos. Great work, everyone! I can recommend a comparative study of the various beliefs of that umbrella group called Paganism/NeoPaganism, the development of the various sects. As I said, this was interesting history, thank you for making it.
I appreciate your calm scientific approach to these very complex and sensitive topics instead of taking the more common route of calling it all a cult ❤️
Well, using the definition he gave is his video on Armstrongism, Mormonism doesn't qualify as a cult. An argument could be made for them meeting the definition in the days of Joseph Smith, but as the old adage goes cult + time = main stream religion.
Since watching this video, I decided to read "View of the Hebrews". Comparing that to the Book of Mormon, I don't think it's a reasonable secular conclusion that it was a source of the Book of Mormon. It is very anti-Semitic where the Book of Mormon is very pro. It is not a story. It is basically an argument on why the author believes the Native Americans were the lost tribe. It teaches doctrine that is really contrary to Mormonism. Other than the basic idea that Aboriginal Americans came from Jerusalem, there isn't a connection at all. Joseph Smith wouldn't need View of the Hebrews for that idea. If it's a book that is completely made up, in the secular point of view, he is an incredible writer and theologian.
Hell probably go that way, but there are other relevant abrahamic religions (JW and Bahai come to mind). Also, spiritism is highly influenced by Christianity and would also be interesting.
One of the things I love about these types of videos on Matt's channel is the comment section, always full of people sharing other resources or lines of inquiry into other religions, usually more esoteric ones or ones with very small, but devoted followers.
I'm happy the nemenhah records have now come forward. Thank you to the native Americans for making this possible. It backs the book of Mormon, but goes far deeper.
You make excellent videos my friend. I am LDS and, although I disagree with some of the points you made (especially in the latter half of your video), I think this was fairly thorough and very enjoyable. It is always interesting to see the perspective of non LDS humans commenting on my beliefs. I would love to have your notes and sources. Thanks for the great videos. @UsefulCharts
One thing I just realized in defence of Joseph's authentic seership is the fact that it took millenia to bring the writings of the ancient biblical accounts, in all their complex doctrinal teachings that reference each other because the writings came at different time periods therefore different authors, to the rest of the world, and that is clearly identifiable even to the novice reader of the Bible. The same feeling is received in the Book of Mormon, that whilst the book itself is an abridgement of a collection of writings, there is a panoramic view given to the reader, so that they can identify readily with the changing scenery, yet Joseph Smith had the foresight to embed unlimited doctrinal references in the same way the Bible references itself, but Joseph Smith created this intellectually written, sweeping historical account that spans millenia, and all within a period of time that equates to less than a year. It's a bold piece of writing that he must've known would've been scrutinized to the nth degree, just as the Bible had been analysed for centuries earlier as a religious text, and here he was "creating" something new that the Christian world at that time he knew would call it heresay. He was literally taking the Christian world of his era and turning it on its head by introducing "new" scripture. Noone in their right mind would have dared to do such a thing I don't think. Which is why, to date, noone has. Nowadays if you wanted to create your own religion you can. Today is far less religious than it was in Joseph's day, at least it seems to be more tolerable to not believe in the Christian God of the "west" nowadays. So if a person wants to make one up, there's nothing to stop them doing it or to come up with new scripture that references and supports the biblical accounts. Yet noone would dare try, and I don't know that anyone has? I suspect because what would you say, barring regurgitating what the Bible says? Joseph Smith brought not only a new way of understanding the traditional scriptural records, but also introduced new scripture. Scripture that noone had heard before. And that was only the parts that were canonized. There are other hundreds of writings/utterings that he made, like blessings and sermons he gave that were also recorded and archived. It's a monumental contribution. He bridged the gap between ancient and modern revelation and brought them to sit at the same table. It's quite mind blowing when I stop for a minute to think about it.
It's so encouraging to read that so many Mormons are now ex Mormons as a result of videos such as these. Those poor deceived souls need to see the truth. They need to be set free from their religious bondage. The darkness needs to be exposed. For light swallows up darkness. So the more light that is shone on the mormon deception/delusion, the more people will come out of her. Well done!! Praise Jesus, for he is the way the truth the life and the light of this dark world.
"As a result of videos like this" Actually, nope. If someone decides to leave the church, then they go around posting how much they like anything and everything against the church, no matter how far-fetched. The Book of Mormon is true. I read it and the Bible with my family. You're really missing out
Yes, Matt Baker, you do a very good job showing the history of these religions something most of them skim through or outrightly avoid in their studies and creed. As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I'd love to see how you share your academic viewpoint on my religion. I love your objective review and concise presentation. I love @UsefulCharts videos. New Sub here!
11:14 Wait... there's a claim that the Book of Mormon is set in Malaysia? This is the first time I've heard of this claim! Why do I hear Malaysia mentioned in the weirdest and most unexpecting of places? XD
I'm not a Mormon, but I understand the Malaysian hypothesis is because 1. the Book of Mormon describes a route into Arabia and then through the Indian Ocean, which better fits a journey to Southeast Asia than through the Pacific to the Americas, 2. there have been Jewish and Christian communities in India and Southeast Asia, 3. the Book of Mormon appears to refer to iron tools, to horses, and possibly to elephants, and 4. there is a Narrow Neck of Land in what's now southern Thailand.
It is called..."grasping at straws". (Because they know that the "it happened in the America's, is so outlandish an idea...that they are grasping at the "Malaysian" theory). It is all made up by Joseph Smith. Made up. Fiction. Period.
@@baberoot1998 Most likely the Malaysian hypothesis is a measure of how much of Joe Smith's story would fit anywhere with suitable geography, and suitable conditions. But suppose it's actually true. Suppose Joe Smith found and miraculously translated a history of the Malay peninsula, which a last exile brought to the Americas for safe-keeping. Suppose it can be proven. Some of his interpretations would be spectacularly wrong. So that would do nothing to confirm Joe Smith's later teachings, let along Brigham Young's, and if anything, it would raise more questions.
There were 11 formal witnesses to the golden plates. Many of them eventually left the church because of disagreements with Joseph, yet none of them ever denied their testimonies of having seen the plates. Oliver Cowdery, Joseph's scribe for much of the translation, ended up working as a prosecuting attorney in the state of Michigan after leaving the church, and was challenged a the plantiff's lawyer in one case on his testimony. Under oath he stated: "May it please the court, and gentlemen of the jury, my brother attorney on the other side has charged me with connection with Joseph Smith and the golden Bible. The responsibility has been placed upon me, and I cannot escape reply. Before God and man I dare not deny what I have said, and what my testimony contains and as written and printed on the front page of the Book of Mormon. May it please your honor and gentlemen of the jury, this I say, I saw the angel and heard his voice-how can I deny it? It happened in the daytime when the sun was shining bright in the firmament; not in the night when I was asleep. That glorious messenger from heaven, dressed in white, standing above the ground, in a glory I have never seen anything to compare, with the sun insignificant in comparison, and these personages told us if we denied that testimony there is no forgiveness in this life nor in the world to come. Now how can I deny it-I dare not; I will not!" This is just one such example, but none of the witnesses denied their testimony of seeing the plates.
What was he supposed to do? Admit that he's a liar to the opposing council, not only destroying his credibility as a lawyer but also ruining any chance of rejoining the church? Just burn all his bridges at once?
This was amazing, even though I am not a member of the LDS I have read several chapters of the Book of Mormon and found it a pretty good read. I plan to finish it in the future.
My MiL and FIL are Mormon. Though before his death my FIL was not temple recommended and my MIL still isn’t. My partner was “baptized” Mormon (say baptized but like can happen with the Mikveh, he never quite got a kosher dunk, so we haven’t decided if it “took” or not). I am a happy Jew and my partner is working on converting. I say all that to compliment this video. It is rare to get something from never-Mormon that is handled with this much respect and sensitivity while still treating it historically. This is a great video I hope more Mormons see to better understand their scriptures, and given you aren’t an ex-Mormon, you aren’t the Mormon Devil like say, John Delin. Nor are you a scholar who spent time debunking say the book of Abraham like the Egyptologist who sadly recently passed in the last few years. This is a great resource, like all your videos and I am so grateful you put this content out.
Great video, I found the whole nephite lamanite subplot hard to sit through, but the discussion about interpretations and literary influences was an excellent summary of the subject matter. ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ 5 stars!
This was very well done, I'm impressed with how thorough you could be in just 27 minutes. Another point that I think is important is how good of a storyteller Joseph Smith was. In his mother's journal, she talks about how he could make up stories for hours, and specifically talked about stories he told concerning the native americans and their origins. He also was very involved in several different denominations, and a few of the stories in the book of mormon are very, very similar to accounts of sermons of the day. It's also important to note that both the First Vision and the visitations from Moroni weren't mentioned until a few years after the Book of Mormon was published. There are no journals that directly describe or allude to any visitations during Joseph's youth, nor any persecution he faced during that period. As always, this was very well done. And the fact that you've seemed to satisfy both the active members as well as ex-members in the comment section, I'd say you've done very well.
This is gold, Matt, keep 'em coming! It would be interesting to see you cover: -African religions across the world (series?) -Hasidic Judaism and it's dynasties (series) -Nizari Isma'ilism, its lineages of Imams, and other patrilinear lines from Caliph Ali (maybe a series) -More videos on different forms of Christianity -The Bahá'í Faith -Theosophists, it's derivations, and the like... maybe even Rosacrucianism and Freemasonry
Just found this channel, and I love the different historical analyses in family lines and stuff. I want to clarify that the Book of Mormon states the Nephites were destroyed circa 385 AD, not 485 AD. Moroni finishes his record later as the last survivor, so perhaps that's where the 4-- comes from. I appreciate the look at this perspective of Book of Mormon and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I want to mention the preferred shortenings for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are the Church of Jesus Christ or the Restored Church of Jesus Christ rather than LDS or Mormon, and members of the Church of Jesus Christ are called Latter-day Saints. Again, this was super neat to watch. I'll be checking out more stuff from this channel.
Thank you for that video. It gave a well overview of that topic. And I learned even something (Malaysia Hypothesis). Honestly I had hoped, to find a deeper answer into the question WHO actually wrote it. Writing-Analytics seem to indicate that it actually was Smith. But it is to me still hard to believe he could have done it alone. And the supporting theories are to me a bit too fuzzy. But going into this topic would be probably too deep for such a channel and bore the majority of the audience who are not so much into mormonism details. :D
As an ex-Mormon, I enjoyed this video very much! Everything was spot on and I even learned some new things. Thanks for this video! I love your material!
I saw a production o the musical play The Book of Mormon a few years ago, at a large theater in St. Lous Missouri. The place was packed, even unto the slightly giddy heights where I sat. People laughed at all the expected places, but I was one of the select who laughed at some unexpected references. I am not deeply knowledgeable abbot the subject, but knew enough. I wondered then and still wonder how many of the audience members missed the point of the satire, and whose enjoyment was purely flawed and superficial. I asked a woman seated next to me what she knew about J. Smith and his church--she looked at me as if I had made some bad joke or lewd remark, and hurried away when the final curtain came down. Thanks for this cogent, concise and informative presentation.
How about something on the more esoteric stuff? Golden Dawn, Thelema, Crowley, and the relationship between those and some of the later religions like Wicca, Neo-Paganism, and even Scientology. I think it'd make for a great chart/video based on influences like you've done here.
Agreed. I thought about how interesting some of these may be as well- Scientology also came to mind for me. I’d like a thorough chart of it. All we have now is the South Park episode.
@@richard2524 You need big ɓalls to do that, and probably not on YT. Copyright and such. SP only got away with that AND a libel suit because they wrote the episode in such a way that even the lawsuit-happy CoS knew that it would blow up in their face, and that only worked because SP is a big name.....
Very interesting video again. I don't think you've done a complete overview of the various forms of Christianity yet? But based on these video there are probably several videos in there: early christianity before the Council of Nicea and/or up until the Reformation, the development of Protestantism in both Europe and North America after the Reformation.
Lovely video! It's mostly accurate, with only a few name discrepancies (Martin Harris and Sydney Rigdon were swapped in the story of the lost 116 pages) My only real issue is that Joseph Smith simply couldn't have somehow faked the Book of Mormon. No person who believes in God would do such a thing, and no person who doesn't believe in God would be capable of doing it without being a full time scholar of everything religious. Joseph Smith, who only had a very limited education, would have had to have planned to be a cult leader from the age of 14 and been such a good liar that he convinced his whole family to either join him in the lies or to believe them themselves to the point that several of his family member's lives were threatened and even Joseph himself and his brother were murdered for their beliefs. If the Book of Mormon was easily faked by a farm boy with little to no education and he was simply an opportunist cult leader, why has nobody else come up with anything similar? Anyone who has actually read the Book of Mormon knows that it isn't the work of a lazy, poorly educated individual. It has powerfully written stories and testimonies, quotes and verses that hold significant value to thousands of people, it was clearly well thought out and most likely written by a ton of people over a very long time. If it isn't genuine it is the most anomaloustic work ever produced. I find it far more likely that it is a true record than any possibility that it could have been faked, simply due to the vast quantity of coincidences that seemed to have worked in its favor. Joseph Smith described the 'Golden Plates' as having a slight green rust on the corners of some pages and being a fair amount lighter than what a real fully gold record of the dimensions he described should have weighed. At the time this was attributed to his lack of education, people claimed he was too stupid to know that gold doesn't rust and that it is a lot heavier than he thought. Additionally the idea of an ancient civilization using metal plates to keep records was unheard of, another supposed example of Joseph's stupidity. However, since then, ancient records of lost civilizations kept on metal plates have been found all over the world, not only that, but several have been found using a gold alloy that includes a few other metals that lead to the pages having a greenish rust and weighing less than a 14 karat gold record would have, exactly as Joseph described his gold plates. Whether the Book of Mormon is a fictional work or not is a far more complicated issue than simply: "the concept that Native Americans may have been of Hebrew decent is not an original idea, ergo the book is false." I believe claiming Joseph could have written it himself is simply giving him too much credit, he's not that much of a mastermind. He could barely spell, much less orchestrate an entire religion around an original 500+ page book of his own creation.
Genuinely curious since you seem to know a lot about the subject, but as a Mormon how do you deal with / explain the Jewish native Americans not being factual combined with the lack of evidence supporting these peoples, much less contradicting their existence. I have never been able to meet a Mormon so I am curious and hopeful to hear from you.
As a Mormon myself I am very happy you were respectful of our religion. Many, many people online are not and I am very appreciative of your respect. Thanks.
I've loved your videos and as a member of the LDS church was very surprised when I came across this video. I thought you did a great job but was a little disappointed by some of the points you make, for example it wasn't just Joseph Smith who saw angels and visions but also other witnesses including the twelve apostles.
Cool, I remember being drawn into religious studies whilst in college. I had my foot in many different doors while TRYING to choose A program of study, - it was hopeless. Religious studies were a natural interest for me with a powerful penchant for a dozen subfields within philosophy. But of course one interest led to another; I finally ended up cursing destiny in that I had not a dozen more lives to live - it simply is NOT POSSIBLE to adequately learn confined to a single one of them. Revelation was regarded as yet another source of knowledge so philosophy alone had to fall short. Speaking of Mormonism, I have never in the whole of my life, - ever had the company of any more plesant people. It is a rather gross understatement to say that I personally have never witnessed a people, community, culture, ANY religion, or overall attitude toward all life as well as the world around us, - with a more plesant and impressive life and world view.
Sikhism would be good. W.H. McLeod's take on the Janam-sakhis would be a good starting point. The multitudinous versions of Buddhism would be greatly interesting as well, but that'd probably have to be a series.
As someone who grew up mormon, this guy is SPOT ON Correct! Which is nice because it goes to the true integrity and validity of all his videos of many other religions and histories.
Personally, I may attend church once in a while to be with friends and family, but I no longer attend the temple. The temple has nothing to do with Jesus or being a Christian but a form of idol worship among its members.@@HarshitGarg-CRA
Download the chart for free:
usefulcharts.com/blogs/charts/book-of-mormon-family-tree
With all your religious education do you think you could write a book like the Book of Mormon?
Where is the ancient manuscripts to support the book of Mormon?
You do realize islam has nothing to do with Christianity? The pre
Islamic arabs were not Christians and had nothing to do with non nicean sects of christianity
I’m begging you man, a usefulcharts video on the different off shoots of Christianity would be amazingggggggggggg, every single one of your videos are incredible and whenever I show them to any of my friends in the faith (Jews, Christian’s, and Muslims), they’re alway blown away by the level of detail and accuracy and I feel like there’s no TH-camr who could do the Christian’s schisms as much Justice to the topic as you would. Love your work man!
I've actually already started working on it!
@@UsefulCharts you’re awesome! I’m excited as hell to see it
@@endeverafter2 Excited as *heaven*
@@UsefulCharts Oh this will be AWESOME
@@UsefulCharts I can hardly wait
As someone with no connection to Mormonism and only experienced it through television, thank you for breaking it down from a secular point of view. I always appreciate how respectful you are of all of these faith-based theories and discussions.
He may be respectful and the first part is pretty accurate but when he actually talks about the Book of Mormon and how it came about, he has a lot of things very wrong.
Yeah he did his best but there are some implications he makes here that are less accurate. You should read the Book of Mormon to truly grasp it.
As an Ex-Mormon who left, here's a word of advice,
When the missionaries knock at your door,
RUN.
They may seem nice, but that's because it's what their coercion book, "preach my gospel" tells them to do.
It's not genuine.
@@OSINT-MANAGEMENT What was it that lead you to choose to leave?
@@GldnClaw Hypocrisy, False Prophecies, and The fact that all my personal info was o the church app.
So tell me, after that, why is it that you still chose to follow a church led by corrupt human beings?
I read the Book of Mormon maybe ten or so times growing up, spent hours of private study time and went to classes dedicated to studying every chapter and verse for hidden divine wisdom (not at all a unique experience in the LDS Church). The discussion here about how its contents could be explained from a secular perspective were things that I came across from time to time online, but they always seemed forbidden and transgressive. I was a little scared and worried that someone nefarious was trying to trick me.
In my questioning and worrying I could have been well served by a video like this delivered clearly and neutrally from a third party coming from a place of pure academic curiosity. Seeing something like this now feels like a nostalgic bit of closure now that I've spent most of my adult life outside the church, and (much like you mentioned) I can now look back with a little more appreciation of how such a strange and unique piece of 19th century American literature happened to play such a large role in my life.
Great video as always!
Is it not ironic...that the people you thought were trying to trick you...weren't? And it turned out...the people who actually tricked you...were the people making you feel as if someone else...was trying to trick you. Irony...at its best.
Well, you did get tricked. But by someone with sore hands
@@baberoot1998 Tbh, I don't think it's entirely fair to say they were trying to trick OP. Many members grew up in the church, and so belief in the Book of Mormon is often a cornerstone of their sense of self and belonging. Teaching it to others is probably the most logical thing to do for them
It is sad to think someone would say this is not biased. Is that the state of our education?
It may have a non-biased tone. All suggestions made are one-sided at best and cherry-picked at worst.
I guess this guy says he is a theist. So he isn’t actually analyzing literature or any other evidence. There are nearly 100 words in the Book of Mormon that can clearly be traced to ancient languages. These were words not in any Bible or Hebrew text at the time. I don’t think Joseph Smith could have “guessed” so many correctly. Furthermore there are the Chiasmus. They were not widely known about at the time. There are other hebraisms that are not in the King James Bible (ie the use of thieves vs robbers) the KJV translators use interchangeably but are clearly different Hebrew concepts. This is known now that Hebrew is actually well studied.
I could go on. Why does the Book of Mormon say Moses disappeared when the Bible at the time didn’t? It was pretty bold for Joseph Smith to contradict the Bible. Since then accounts have come forward indeed suggesting Moses was translated.
Cleary there is strong evidence there was multiple ancient influences in the Book of Mormon. Influences not present at the time it was published. I could go on.
This video does a decent job at parroting old tropes and pretends to throw in an occasional positive comment. It is not cerebral or intellectual. It is tired and boring and designed to flatter and calm both the listener and the producer. What did modern population size have to do with anything?
I love how the narrator brought up the Pearl of Great Price (nothing to do with the Book of Mormon) and then failed to bring up the Book of Moses (in the same book) that has pages and pages of stories of Enoch. Stories that have only since been discovered in the Dead Sea scrolls etc. What influenced that? BTW if you are interested in the Book of Abraham see books by Yale Egyptologist John Gee.
One-sided at best. Cherry-picked at worst.
Sincere effort: minimal.
I get it. The Book of Mormon is hard to believe in and yet it “hisses” forth; forcing the people to accept or reject it. I don’t think that is a reason to be biased.
Also, I agree with your comment that most Latter-day Saints treat information like this as “taboo”. I would say most Latter-day Saints are fairly biased as well. As you pointed out, that aspect of Latter-day Saint culture it is not helpful or healthy. Let’s not pretend this video is close to impartial. Again that would not be helpful or healthy.
Chiasmus, like those found in Dr Seuss? Look at the cherry-picker calling the kettle black
Being a Malaysian 🇲🇾, I spat out my drink when I heard Malaysia as a setting for the book of Mormon. I never knew about it until now. Great and informative video!
There are over 100 models for Book of Mormon Geography. The only one that makes sense is where it actually happened--ancient America.
Bhahahaha 😂
@@brucelloyd7496 Well, I'll concede that it makes more sense than scientology.
Obligatory "Diorang dah lama rancang bro, kita je yang lalai" comment
@@brucelloyd7496 why doesn't any book of the bible mention it? Only the book of Mormon. Its very different from the bible.
mark twain described it's literary value, as follows: "The book is a curiosity to me, it is such a pretentious affair, and yet so "slow," so sleepy; such an insipid mess of inspiration. It is chloroform in print. If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was a miracle - keeping awake while he did it was, at any rate.”
Mark Twain didn't look into it closely enough. I will grant that its pseudo-King James style is often ponderous and cloying. But Grant Hardy has done a fascinating study of its narratology. The main narrators give their personal stories as well as larger-scale accounts of their society and doctrinal content, and those three components, well, don't always all neatly pull in the same direction. The narration is structured to draw your eye away from the tensions among them, but read it "against the grain" to pick them up, and there's startling human depth, pathos, and irony beneath the faith-promoting surface.
Now, if you go for theology, it's ... not univocal there either. And at one point one of its prophets (Abinadi) just casually blows up a foundational presupposition of centuries of soteriological debate (the fixedness of the Son's nature), which is fun (if you're a turbodork).
And Twain was a humorist, first and foremost. If he couldn't make a joke out of something, it was of no value to him.
I am also going to note that if he is going to compare TBOM to "chloroform in print" he should have mentioned The Book of Ether! This was a totally missed opportunity and shows that Twain was off his form at that particular time!
Well, he did spend a lot of the time face-down in his hat...
Even Joseph Smith doesn't deny that the Book of Mormon was anything short of a miracle. To be able to explain everything about it from an intellectual or secular point of view without a reasonable doubt would disqualify it as being miraculously conceived. Yet Joseph never deviated from the explanation that it was given him to translate by the "power of God." Mister Twain, on the point of a miracle, we don't disagree!
On the point about it being sleepy, like Christ through his prophets have said time and time again, "their ears are dull of hearing" "listening they hear not, and seeing they see not!" "They need to be nursed by milk before they can eat meat".
We are all at varying degrees in our understanding of God and Godly things. But God gifts only those who love him the ability to see things that are largely unseen/unheard by the majority. Many are called, but only few are chosen. To me Joseph Smith was undoubtedly chosen, and like others before him, died a martyr to bring a message of truth to the earth.
Btw Mark Twain, what's so sleepy about learning that Christ is the Savior of the world, and that children who die before the age of accountability, like my baby daughter? It's a book that brings hope to those who are seeking for a hopeful message in a world that is largely unforgiving and cannot offer any consolation except for, 'my daughter is dead and her body is gone, eaten by worms.' End of story. Where's the inspiration in that? Where's the meaning in life?
Really would love something like this on the Indian epics , Vedas , the Buddhism sutras, The avesta etc if you choose to continue this. Much love!
i second that!
I would absolutely love to see a presentation on the many Indian texts, especially the Vedas, but I understand that they're a *very* broad topic that may be too much to broach in videos like these
he did one on the Mahabarata, I think
So I guess the story of Jewish expats in the Americas wasn’t enough of an “Indian epic” for you, huh? 😂
I would also love a video on Iranian and Indian religions
I learned a lot from your Q'uran video, have to admit that as a practicing LDS Christian I was a little nervous about your announcement that you would be making this video, but I figured that if you were as respectful about it as you were in the Q'uran video I'd give it a go. Thankfully you did not disappoint!
LDS aren't considered Christians since they teach heretical doctrines.
Only themselves think of themselves as Christian
@Bryce Calabaza We believe that Jesus is God like other Christians which is the definition of Christianity. Like mentioned in the video we are just not Nicene Christians. That like saying early Christians are not Christians and therefore are heretical.
Qur"'"an
@@abdal-adl2540 Thank you for correcting me
@Bryce Calabaza You may no longer be an LDS Christian in name, but you still have the same arrogant belief that you have all the truth. That's something I've grown to really dislike about us.
Matt, another job well done! I'm a Jewish college student studying history, and your channel has influenced my love of the subject for years now. Another interesting topic could be the Baha'i Faith, I'd love to learn more about them!
Definitely one of my favorites (I know some really good people who are bahai) that I know virtually nothing about
I've heard of that religion many times.. probably read the Urantia book as well.
Baha’i is what happened when you imagine the Mormons happening in Persia.
As an ex shia persian from the city where baha'ism began I tell you:
It's WAY more f'ed up than Islam and mormonism combined.
Very well done! I am a person who was raised Mormon, was very devout into my twenties, and still has close friends and family who are Mormon.
My own change in beliefs corresponded with a deep dive into Mormon history that lasted years. It is quite impressive how you condense a fairly comprehensive overview into such a brief video, and it miraculously still manages to make sense!
I also love your videos on the authorship of the Bible (another of my personal favorite areas of study). I highly recommend that series!
Many are called, few are chosen.
Many think they are chosen, but few take seriously the call to "love their neighbor as themselves"
Read the light and truth letter and a case for the book of mormon, thanks and give me your response
This contains one of the best short summaries of the structure and basic story of the Book of Mormon that I have ever seen done by an outsider. Excellent work.
As a member of the LDS Church, I found your presentation of the Book of Mormon from a faithful perspective, quite accurate. I also appreciate your historical view of the origins of the Book of Mormon.
@@hanz3967 : unfortunetly this is the first unappropriate comment I found so far on this great channel. I do not see the benefit of offending people randomly.
Honest question Mr Lund; If you today profess as a member of the LDS church, how do you reconcile the reality of what Matt showed us here in his video? Does the reality of the knowledge that circa 589 BC (much less 3000 BC) travel to America ... simply didnt happen in reality ... and the likelihood of 18 century American individuals literally 'coming up with' a religion to suit the times ... you can see where I'm going here.
Your belief is provably false in reality historically, based on 'plates' that likely never existed in the first place, and professed by creators whos primary interest was clearly self aggrandisement? How do you justify being a member of a group that has no clear theological basis beyond literally ... a guy ... writing a book with his head stuck in a hat.
If Matt here was 'accurate', how does that transform into a basis for a belief?
@@hanz3967 hey atheist here, have you not noticed the comments here?
They show a lot of common courtesy, do you not know how to take social cues?
If you don't then learn.
@@hanz3967 - at least in all of those examples, there are also unattached scholastic evidence of Jesus existing, Mohamed existing etc, as well (to the point) as secular evidence of their movements and actions and the groups of people following them.
We also have parallel historical and archaeological facts that back up the environments and worlds they were in. How they related to their world and others in it, are generally in compliance with historical knowledge of the world around them.
With Mormon we have none of that, except as Matt points out an early America tender and ready to believe in ... something ... of a society.
Nothing prior to Smith can be proven historically about America, nothing.
@@hanz3967 I know about what a lot of religious and colonialism did, I am a New Zealand Maori our history with the English is similar but I don't hold it against the new generation but I do want them to learn both sides of history.
If there's one thing I have learnt through history is that no culture is without it's atrocious crimes against a different people group.
So please let me give you one piece of advice look at your own cultures history first, make sure to look at the good and the bad and it will give you a reason to be humble.
This was fantastic!! I dedicated the first 25yrs of my life to this religion and this was a beautiful overview. I wish this overview existed when I was a kid.
It did, it was just harder to find before the internet.
As an ex-Mormon, did he leave out important books? I thought Pearl of Great Price was another requirement? Married a Mormon, so I had to learn a few things, but didn't convert.
@@christopherwoods5150 Yeah the Pearl of Great Price and doctrine and covenants are important too. But this video was specifically addressing the Book of Mormon and it's history.
Those are purported to be modern revelation, not a history like the book of mormon.
@@darkwitnesslxx Thank you!
I've been to the Hill Cumorah, it's beautiful. I fell down it and have a scar on my knee now, so I tell people I was attacked by an ancient prophet as a transition into an explanation of our culture and history. My 7th great-grandfather converted to the church soon after it was founded, and his son was one of the founders of Salt Lake City and also the University of Utah. There is a lot of stigma around people of our beliefs, so I'm glad you covered this topic so respectfully. I know there are some really crazy Mormons out there, but like any other religion there are also some really great people as well. This is a great video that makes some great points while not being dismissive of our culture and beliefs. Thank you.
Growing up as a Mormon, or LDS as they prefer to call it, this was both very informative and pretty accurate. Well done.
Still Mormon? How do Mormons react to someone abandoning faith?
@@kekzealot3568 I am. It's different just based on who your parents are. Some continue to love and support their children no matter what. Others will ostracize and exclude from family gatherings.
@@spencer4164 are you still a follower because you have faith or because you are afraid of being ostracized
@@kekzealot3568 I'm an ex-mormon. I've definitely seen a mix of support and shunning. Church leaders often give reasons for why members leave, and they're rarely, if ever, reasons that leave the person who leaves with any dignity. The assumption is usually that the person was lazy, wanted to sin, offended by someone in the church, or deceived by Satan. It's hard for many members to accept that a person left simply because that's where they felt the evidence or even their morals led them.
@@kekzealot3568 no I am not, and believe it or not, most of the members feel sad when a friend or family member leaves their church but the majority of members don’t treat us “Jack Mormons” who have left the church, any differently. There aren’t any rules or even recommendations in the church doctoring instructing members to cut ties with friends or family members who aren’t members anymore, even if their loved ones speak out about the Mormons. But there are people who let it rip their families apart
As an ex-Jehovah's Witness, I would love to see you cover them and their translations (I hear they've got a new one since I left) of the Bible. They also do not believe in The Trinity and believe all other Abrahamic religions to be misguided. Anyhow, I think it'd be interesting to see an academic breakdown of their history and worked happily answer questions about their beliefs, though I am several years removed nowadays.
Thank you knowing better
@C thanks! Though the lack of birthday parties never bothered me. The main negative was not getting to date as a teen and having to figure everything out in my twenties that everone else already knew.
@@preparation.kaician I hope you're doing fine now.
As a Mormon myself, this was very well done Matt!! There were even some new things I learned, like the Malaysian theory I personally have always understood that nothing in the Book or Mormon or Bible for that matter should be taken as unequivocal fact, but rather used as a guide. Keep up the great work my friend!!
@@peggymattie5191 have a happy Saturday and a great rest of your weekend!
@@peggymattie5191 Why must bigots like you always target people who believe in different things than you? I am a Christian, but I am gay. Does that make me not a Christian? No! Who are you to judge someone based on what they believe in? Read Matthew 7:1-3. Also, didn't Jesus say "Love thy neighbor as thyself, that is the greatest commandment of all"? We are all human beings, fellow travelers to the grave. Why can't we just let people live their lives the way they want to as long as they aren't hurting you?
@@peggymattie5191 did you… not watch the video? Look at the graphic shown at 3:15. The creator doesn’t say that it’s another testament, just another branch off of the “early Christian” family of beliefs. Also, the commenter that started this thread never said the Book of Mormon is a New Testament. They just presented the idea/belief that these ancient writings shouldn’t be taken as fact, but read for the overarching lessons they can teach us, similar to how we the lessons fictional books can try to convey. Jesus fucking Christ can we have some listening/reading comprehension anymore?
@@RiskyOpinions You are no better than her. Just keep your opinions to yourself. Didn't any of you learn that if you have nothing nice to say, don't say it at all?
@@RiskyOpinions Well, I guess I'll see you down there. Didn't Jesus say to Love thy neighbor as thyself? It is one of the Ten Commandments after all.
I'm so glad I found this channel. The video's on religions are particularly good in my opinion. Amazing!!!
This is generally very good, but the section about early Mormon history felt a bit rough. Identifying Sidney Rigdon as a "helper" who could have helped create the Book of Mormon is something of a trope but untenable historically: Sidney Rigdon didn't meet Joseph Smith until December 1830, after the publication of the Book of Mormon.
He was probably talking about Martin Harris. Harris was the one who lost the pages
@@majenharden I think it is that there are a few eye witnesses that put rigdon in New York with smith before the attested first meeting. These are circumstantial at best but not out of the realm of possibility
@@majenharden No, the Smith-Rigdon theory is one parroted quite frequently, and relies on conspiracy.
Most of these conspiracy theories rely on the assumption that the Book of Mormon is anything to be impressed by. It's an extremely unimpressive book that someone with a middle school education and an overactive imagination could have easily winged out.
@@mathewfinchhave you personally read it? It seems like it would be pretty obvious if that were the case, and there wouldn't be an entire religion built around it...?
As a member of the LDS faith, I just want to thank you for your academic and unbiased view. Excellent video.
God created man, man created religion!
God created man to serve Him, man created religion for its followers to serve.
Religious men serve religion more than they serve God.
Jesus wants us to follow Him, not religion.
Jesus said I Am the way, not religion is the way.
Jesus said Follow Me, not follow me then pick some brand of worldly religion to follow also.
Jesus never followed a religion. In fact Jesus was against the religious people of His day and He even went as far as to call them the children of the devil.
The 12 disciples never followed religion, they only followed Jesus.
So why is it that Mormons and other religious people believe they need to create or join a religion????
People seek after religion because Jesus and the Gospel are no longer enough for them.
As Jesus is no longer enough for them they create a religion to follow.
It is like the people of Moses' day, where the people created a golden calf and worshiped it.
Mormons have set their religion before them like an idol. They worship it and they defend it.
Mormons need their book of Mormon because they believe that the Bible which contains all that Jesus did and taught is not enough for them.
Mormons believe "church" = a religious institution
Christians know "church" = people, followers of Jesus, His sheep.
Mormons are not Christians. They put their religion first and Jesus last.
Mormons are Mormon first and Christians second.
Mormons will always defend their religion because they hold it closer to their heart than they do Jesus and His Gospel.
Mormons are the most deceived church upon the earth.
Mormons belong to: The Church Of Joseph Smith of Latter Day Deceived
The Book Of Mormon is The Most Corrected Book Upon The Earth
The Book Of Mormon is Another Deception Of The Anti Christ
The Book Of Mormon is Joseph's Myth
Christians will always attack religion because IT is not of God.
Mormons will always defend their religion because THEY are not of God.
Religious people always need a religion to go through to get to God.
Christians only need Jesus to get to Him and the Father.
Any time that a church tells you that you have to go through them to get to God it is usually a cult.
When Mormons bear testimonies it is more so to convince EACH OTHER that their religion is true than to bear witness or convince non believers.
Mormons spend so much of their time bearing testimonies on the book of mormon being true and their church being true.
Christians already know that the bible is true and we know that anyone who follows Jesus are His true church.
Christians just get on with teaching the gospels and all that is contained within the bible.
Mormons just continue trying to convince everyone that their book of Mormon is true rather than devoting all their time to teaching anything out of it.
Mormons believe they can be married for all eternity.
The bible tells us that there is NO marriage beyond this life.
It also tells us that there is neither male nor female.
Mormons choose to believe fables over the truth which is the Holy Bible.
Jesus leads to salvation.
Joseph leads to damnation.
So Mormons, who will you choose? Jesus or Joseph?
I really love how respectful you are when talking about many different religions. You are a clear example how these discussions should happen in our daily lives. Thank you :)
I love your video style, measured and steady and always easy to understand. And the content is always quality! I'll be sharing this with a few friends who are interested in this topic.
You're work is impeccable! As a former Catholic who's been a Muslim for 13 years now, I really appreciate all your work.
I'm Braziliam. From the very little I've heard from American entertainment productions (like movies, series and even TH-cam videos), I've always thought of mormons as a regular branch of protestant Christianity, but more "radical", "fundamentalists" or "conservantive".
I'd NEVER imagined it would remotely envolve Hebrews and Jesus himself in the Americas, let alone envolving the Native Americans. I'm absolutely blown away by this! Thank you so much! Now I'm so curious to find out what they believe Jesus did here in the Americas and how they think of him differently.
It's all in the book! 🙂
Basically establish his church: preform miracles (healing the sick, curing blindness or lameness and the like), call 12 disciples, preach a sermon similar to the sermon on the mount in the new testament, give bread and wine like the last supper and command the people to hold communion (although mormons call it "the sacrament" rather than communion) once a week, quoted a couple old testament prophets etc. Mormons often compare the part of the book where Jesus visits the Americas (3rd Nephi chapters 11-30) to the gospels in the New Testament
Pretty similar stuff that Jesus did elsewhere. The only difference I can think of is that Jesus claimed that he has many other groups of followers and more scriptures would come forward besides the Bible & BoM
The Book of Mormon asserts that because indigenous Americans are descendants of ancient Israelites, they had prophets that prophesied of the coming of Jesus. And saw signs of Jesus' birth, and death. When Jesus was resurrected and appeared to his disciples in Judea, he left telling them, "other sheep I have, which are not of this fold". Mormons assert this is a reference to the people in the Americas who were following Hebrew traditions. In the Book of Mormon, Jesus appears to the people in the Americas, establishes his church in the same organization as the Judean church, with 12 apostles chosen from among the Nephites. He preaches the sermon on the mount to them, which is mirrored by the passages in the New Testament, with minor changes. He institutes communion (called the sacrament by Mormons), he heals the sick, blesses the children, and then leaves by ascension back into heaven.
The period after is described as a period of peace that lasted 400 years, with people having no divisions, no "ites", and lived under a sort of communalism. But people started to divide themselves with believers and non-believers, and 400 years after the coming of Christ they have a great war where the believers are all destroyed.
Also an important distinction, Mormons believe the Christian church fell away from the true way. By the time the Catholic church was organized the true church was lost in both the Americas and in the old world. Hence why Joseph Smith was the prophet that restored the true church of Jesus Christ.
What do native Americans have to say about the Mormon view of their history? Is there anything at all in Native American oral traditions that is suggestive of an American Jesus? Or A church of Jesus in America?
The Salvation Army would be a good one. Most people think of their charities but rarely do they think of how the church works, its foundations with William Booth and its use of a military structure.
And they don't encourage nor require baptism for membership. 🤷♂️
@@Austin8thGenTexan They also run legal slavery by using homeless and addicts as their workforce , no pay . You work or they make you homeless again
@@Austin8thGenTexan They don't do Communion/Eurcharist either
@@mrmcface713 That's because they have a problem with alcohol, as they have a lot to do with cleaning up the mess it creates in society.
I'd love to see you do the history of the American Baptists. I did a report on it a couple decades ago and it was very interesting and I wish I had kept my notes. Better yet, I'd rather have a quick summary from someone as educated as you going through the origins and controversies.
This 100 times ! I'd love to get a timeline of the diversity of American Protestant denomination. There's a lot of interesting history there to break down
I've been a Mormon all my life and still am now, and i think you did a great job on this video. Very neutral, informative, and focused on the facts. You don't tell us what to believe but instead present the known facts and theories from those facts. Thank you for taking the time to research this.
I converted to the church at 19 and don't think it was very neutral. Talking about treasure digging or the Book of Abraham were completely unneccesary to explaining the Book of Mormon itself.
@fbi9792 I agree with you about that but also just saying if you look on youtube for content about the LDS church about 90% of it is just people yelling that its a cult and that Joseph Smith is a liar and all that
So seeing this is definently a lot more neutral than pretty much everything else
God created man, man created religion!
God created man to serve Him, man created religion for its followers to serve.
Religious men serve religion more than they serve God.
Jesus wants us to follow Him, not religion.
Jesus said I Am the way, not religion is the way.
Jesus said Follow Me, not follow me then pick some brand of worldly religion to follow also.
Jesus never followed a religion. In fact Jesus was against the religious people of His day and He even went as far as to call them the children of the devil.
The 12 disciples never followed religion, they only followed Jesus.
So why is it that Mormons and other religious people believe they need to create or join a religion????
People seek after religion because Jesus and the Gospel are no longer enough for them.
As Jesus is no longer enough for them they create a religion to follow.
It is like the people of Moses' day, where the people created a golden calf and worshiped it.
Mormons have set their religion before them like an idol. They worship it and they defend it.
Mormons need their book of Mormon because they believe that the Bible which contains all that Jesus did and taught is not enough for them.
Mormons believe "church" = a religious institution
Christians know "church" = people, followers of Jesus, His sheep.
Mormons are not Christians. They put their religion first and Jesus last.
Mormons are Mormon first and Christians second.
Mormons will always defend their religion because they hold it closer to their heart than they do Jesus and His Gospel.
Mormons are the most deceived church upon the earth.
Mormons belong to: The Church Of Joseph Smith of Latter Day Deceived
The Book Of Mormon is The Most Corrected Book Upon The Earth
The Book Of Mormon is Another Deception Of The Anti Christ
The Book Of Mormon is Joseph's Myth
Christians will always attack religion because IT is not of God.
Mormons will always defend their religion because THEY are not of God.
Religious people always need a religion to go through to get to God.
Christians only need Jesus to get to Him and the Father.
Any time that a church tells you that you have to go through them to get to God it is usually a cult.
When Mormons bear testimonies it is more so to convince EACH OTHER that their religion is true than to bear witness or convince non believers.
Mormons spend so much of their time bearing testimonies on the book of mormon being true and their church being true.
Christians already know that the bible is true and we know that anyone who follows Jesus are His true church.
Christians just get on with teaching the gospels and all that is contained within the bible.
Mormons just continue trying to convince everyone that their book of Mormon is true rather than devoting all their time to teaching anything out of it.
Mormons believe they can be married for all eternity.
The bible tells us that there is NO marriage beyond this life.
It also tells us that there is neither male nor female.
Mormons choose to believe fables over the truth which is the Holy Bible.
Jesus leads to salvation.
Joseph leads to damnation.
So Mormons, who will you choose? Jesus or Joseph?
Great review of the Book of Mormon storyline. I appreciate the respecrful and pragmatic approach you take with your videos. It makes them easy to watch even if I dont agree with everything said. Both books mentioned in this video that could have neen the basis for Joseph Smith when writing the Book of Mormon have been shown by LDS scholars to be a big stretch. Considering that Joseph Smith was practically illiterate, as explained by his wife who taught school at one point, its highly unlikely he could write such a massive book in a timespan of 90 days which is how long it took. Translating an existing ancient record is a semsible explanation.
I am a practicing member of the LDS faith but I still enjoyed this and other videos you create.
Thanks!
I am a Catholic but the way you present religions and historical data (such as alternate monarchs of European powers) are amazing.
The book View of the Hebrews actually bears testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon from start to finish. As a Mormon, I loved the book, thanks for sharing it on your video. See what many native american tribes believed: "Whence their ideas that their ancestors once had the book of God; and then were happy; but that they lost it; and then became miserable; but that they will have this book again at some time?" That's why Oliver Cowdery offered to help Joseph, because he read this book and he knew that Joseph was translating something special, that the native americans believed to be the Book of God. Just amazing!
I have learned so much from this channel 💜💜💜
You do a phenomenal job of cutting up giant religious concepts into bite-sized pieces that I can comprehend and build from.
I was raised in a non-religious household. I never took interest in the Bible (or any other religious text for that matter), so I never learned the stories and the relationships.
I appreciate your hard work! Keep at it! 💜
As a former Mormon I found your research and the presentation extremely informative. I left the "church" before apologists came up with the new revisionist interpretations of the Lamanites that you mention, and I was unaware of Grant Palmer's "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins."
I grew up on the property next to Ann Lee's Shaker settlement in Watervliet, New York and later lived in the burned out district of New York so I was well aware of the mystic traditions that pervaded the homegrown religions in rural upstate New York during the Second Great Awakening. I was twice a performer in the Hill Cumorah Pageant and would mention that the numerous myths associated with the hill have been found by archeologists to be bogus.
I would like to point out that the 1611 KJV was not only an inspiration to the Book of Mormon, but there are many passages directly plagiarized from it. I haven't made a count of them myself, but someone found that "twenty-seven chapters in the KJV of the Bible are repeated almost verbatim in the 239 chapters of the Book of Mormon." Also, in the slide comparing the size of religious groups the PEW Research Center now considers the non-religiously affiliated or "nones" to be a religious group that outnumbers Baptists, Methodists, Mormons, etc.
And just a pet peeve. An irritation I find in the nomenclature used by both the media and religionists is to refer to groups like the Warren Jeffs' group as "cults" yet they refer to those that have have grown in both numbers and social acceptance as "churches."
Thank you for the great work you do in preparing and executing these educational timelines.
I am not a LDS but was totally enthralled by your dissertation of the Mormon religion. WOW!!! The Best I’ve Ever heard!!! Brilliant!!! Incredible!!! You are amazing !!! Keep on doing what you’re doing. God bless you and your family my friend!!!🤷🏽♂️🤷🏽♂️🤷🏽♂️
As always, a carefully considered and respectful approach. Truly appreciated. I also would be interested if you looked at the religious texts from the Indian subcontinent.
As a member of the LDS church this was great. Thanks for the respectful approach. I know you only broke down the major groups LDS , Community of Christ, and Fundamentalist groups but there are several others most are branches in the Fundamentalist branch. There are other break away groups from the Community of Christ. Essentially conservative members left as the Community of Christ became more liberal.
Don't follow any brand of religion. All of them are false!!
Repent of your religion(s)!!
Turn back to Jesus and the one true gospel!!
As a member of the church, I honestly was going in with a bit of uncertainty of whether it would be the usual "No evidence, church bad, bla bla bla stuff." But I got to be honest, this was respectful of our material while being critical in several aspects. And it does make sense outside of having faith in the church for this view to be exposed. Anyway, thank you for the great video.
_... the usual "No evidence, church bad, bla bla bla stuff."_
I can't speak for your experience, but Matt's not like that. In all his videos, he's respectful to the subject, whatever religion, sect, or cult it may be. He has to be, living in a glass house as he is! 😂
@Bryce Calabaza With so many people claiming to present the Truth and most saying different things. Then I say your comment is uninformed. As there is evidence and science and historical findings match the Book of Mormon much more closely in 2022 than they did in 1830. Read stuff presented by those who believe in it. You might be quite surprised. Cities, highways, vast trade networks, writing, advanced culture, accurate description of middle eastern Bedouin life. All of which was contrary to common knowledge of the 1820s.
@@callishutchings7644 Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!
@@baberoot1998 you must win all the debates
Small typo error at 24:23. The range for "Mormons settle in Utah" shown spanning from 1847 to... 1847
Not sure if this is a big enough deal to warrant a correction but I'm pretty sure you intended a different year there, yes?
Either way, this video is amazing and I'm so glad that people like you do what you do. We are lucky to have Matt Baker!!!
Utah still exists so really any ending date doesnt make sense.
Maybe he meant 1858 b/c that was when Brigham Young was fired as governor of Utah, and the period of theocratic Utah ends.
Thank you for a very interesting and informative and respectful approach to explaining the Book of Mormon.
I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS/MORMON) for over 30 years and I learned things.
Thank you for the video. As an active and practicing Latter-day Saint, I appreciate it. It would have been nice to have a little more on the witnesses rather than a sort of backhanded dismissal of them. The first 12 minutes or so are really well done in my opinion, with you doing a good job summarizing the basics of the Book of Mormon narrative.
It does feel a little more all over the place as you cover the history of the church and its offshoots briefly, and almost feels like it veers a little into “hit piece” territory as if you feel obligated to counter the traditional narrative, rather than just share it for what it is. For instance, including references to the Book of Abraham seemed abrupt.
And of course some may disagree with you starting out with the Trinity as the key point of divergence with traditional Christianity. I think belief in and acceptance of modern prophetic revelation (of which the Book of Mormon is a part) is one that more Latter-day Saints, from early on until now, would recognize as a more significant divergence.
His lack of a critical examination of the actual historical arguments (i.e. from an unbiased perspective) was definitely surprising considering the tone of most of his other videos. He basically dismissed any research not aligned with his description in the video as non-academic.
But the video was actually pretty good.
Been an LDS member my whole life. Great video! The last bit where you refer to where Joseph could've been inspired to write the Book of Mormon from is insightful, but as a member, we believe he translated the record through divine intervention. However, the language he translated it into could've been inspired by the books you mentioned. Thanks for being respectful!
Your channel is just phenomenal. I appreciate you so much. You are always so respectful as you present the full picture and I wish this could be provided to every young person. I bought your book as an effort to support. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise and for your thorough, patient research! 😅
From my studies, I seem to remember that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon in a matter of a few months. He never had his scribe read back to him what he had previously written but continued the translation right were he left off.
There is no problem with continuity in the Book nor are there discrepancies or even broken plots or unfinished stories, which would be amazing and possibly impossible for a writer to do
It would be cool if you covered the history of the SDA church since it’s one of the main denominations that spring from the Great Awakening. As a former SDA member, I always found the history of the church fascinating. Maybe you could even do a series on the American Christian denominations like JW, SDA, Christ Science, etc.
I would love to see the history of SDA as well. Im not an SDA but i do have a lot of SDAs in my family clan and i studied in an adventist-run university.
In our curriculum, we have 4 classes of adventist theology. One here is called "Denominational History" which tackles about the history of SDA church. There are parts in the church history that made me do a 10th read because it's unique yet unbiblical, such as the investigative judgement, the entry of the room of holy of holies, soul sleep, tall jovian people and they're envy at us, and EGWs counsels that are now debunked. However, this university still follows the debunked teachings of EGW and treats it as the revelation from God. They see people who debunked her teachings as an anti-SDA even the de bunkers are SDAs themselves.
Even so, the story of EHG from getting hit by a stone on her head to become EGW and proclaimed that she is the messenger of God even she copied majority of her writings from other writers, is fascinating and good read. Not to be followed, but just as good read, to kill time.
Yes, please give a similar run through the general Adventist movement and Ellen Whites writings. I realised during your respons video to your videos that you have been brought up in a church influenced by the Adventist movement. Being brought up in the Seventh Day Adventist Church i just recently started to be aware of the part of the history surrounding the church that is not thought within the church itself.
This is a very coherent presentation of what has otherwise always seemed to me a very perplexing belief system. Good job!
I love that you declare your perspective up front. I happen to share it mostly, being a pretty secular Christian myself, but your commitment to academic honesty as demonstrated by declaring it to people with other perspectives is commendable.
I find all of these analyses fascinating, thank you for doing them. I had a friend in college who was Baha'i, he was reluctant to talk about his religion since they have a restriction from proselytizing. I think it could do with a good third party analysis for people though.
Another amazing video! Thank you! I am Mormon and you did a fantastic and respectful job!!!
As an Exmormon, I grew up in the LDS faith, spent my childhood adhering to Mormon cultural norms, reading the BoM & Bible, and attending LDS Semenary & Institute classes. After leaving the church (socially at first, then later officially) I have spent about 15 years reading everything I can on the origins of Mormonism and Joseph Smith’s life.
With all that said, this video is probably the best summary of the Book or Mormon and it’s origins I’ve come across that doesn’t have any ulterior motives and simply lays out the facts. Well done, and thank you!
Loving this series! Please continue with other holy books as well!
Love your videos. Clear, concise and leading to curiousity and further research for many. Very good.
Really well done as always 👏 I found the mention of the book at the end interesting because as an ex-Mormon I would agree with Palmer's view on it.
Many people argue that the creation of Mormonism was a scam to get wealth or women, while Mormons question that asking "what did they really gain", but I think if you look at the other writings by the founders of Mormonism, the stuff in Pearl of Great Price in particular (kinda surprised the other two books weren't touched on), you kinda get a sense that they believed in what they were doing even if they knew the BoM itself wasn't historically true. It is similar to what you said in the Bible series that writers would sometimes knowingly make up stories or exaggerate existing stories for the purpose of spreading a specific message. For Mormonism, I think that message was one that included some emerging American values of the time like freedom of religion which is enshrined in Mormonism, Articles of Faith 11 (Pearl of Great Price), as well as a greater focus on personal spirituality and forgiveness over social law and punishment.
The beginning of Mormon history according to it's founders starts by saying that Joseph Smith was confused and dissatisfied with all of the emerging denominations at the time and decided to take the matter to God through prayer, thus leading to Moroni's visit and the subsequent revelation of the tablets. I do believe that Mormonism was founded on that dissatisfaction and a desire to do better, as far as they saw it.
If one thinks of the BoM as aspirational sex fantasy for men running the world it makes perfect sense.
Even today, non Mormons always wonder about the sex paractices of Mormons.
They are viewed a s a sex cult.
Well said.
I’m a Mormon too but just to humor you: they gained practically a whole kingdom, hundreds of billions of dollars, a militia and power, just sayin. None of that really matters though because ultimately the message is don’t do things that are bad for you or society 😂😂
My computer battery died so I put a rock in my hat and watched this video from there.
Great work, Matt!
I'm a faithful member of the Church and I laughed
@@ldsviking Good to hear! I didn't mean it disrespectfully. :)
This is fascinating!! Thanks so much for all that you do 🙏 🤲
I am a devout and practicing Latter-day Saint. I was skeptical on how accurate this would be. I was blown away at how you very accurately described the history and family trees of the Book of Mormon something that I am just fully understanding after being a member my entire life. While presenting scholarly takes on possible sources you do so very respectfully and carefully. So many other videos bash the church and the members.
God created man, man created religion!
God created man to serve Him, man created religion for its followers to serve.
Religious men serve religion more than they serve God.
Jesus wants us to follow Him, not religion.
Jesus said I Am the way, not religion is the way.
Jesus said Follow Me, not follow me then pick some brand of worldly religion to follow also.
Jesus never followed a religion. In fact Jesus was against the religious people of His day and He even went as far as to call them the children of the devil.
The 12 disciples never followed religion, they only followed Jesus.
So why is it that Mormons and other religious people believe they need to create or join a religion????
People seek after religion because Jesus and the Gospel are no longer enough for them.
As Jesus is no longer enough for them they create a religion to follow.
It is like the people of Moses' day, where the people created a golden calf and worshiped it.
Mormons have set their religion before them like an idol. They worship it and they defend it.
Mormons need their book of Mormon because they believe that the Bible which contains all that Jesus did and taught is not enough for them.
Mormons believe "church" = a religious institution
Christians know "church" = people, followers of Jesus, His sheep.
Mormons are not Christians. They put their religion first and Jesus last.
Mormons are Mormon first and Christians second.
Mormons will always defend their religion because they hold it closer to their heart than they do Jesus and His Gospel.
Mormons are the most deceived church upon the earth.
Mormons belong to: The Church Of Joseph Smith of Latter Day Deceived
The Book Of Mormon is The Most Corrected Book Upon The Earth
The Book Of Mormon is Another Deception Of The Anti Christ
The Book Of Mormon is Joseph's Myth
Christians will always attack religion because IT is not of God.
Mormons will always defend their religion because THEY are not of God.
Religious people always need a religion to go through to get to God.
Christians only need Jesus to get to Him and the Father.
Any time that a church tells you that you have to go through them to get to God it is usually a cult.
When Mormons bear testimonies it is more so to convince EACH OTHER that their religion is true than to bear witness or convince non believers.
Mormons spend so much of their time bearing testimonies on the book of mormon being true and their church being true.
Christians already know that the bible is true and we know that anyone who follows Jesus are His true church.
Christians just get on with teaching the gospels and all that is contained within the bible.
Mormons just continue trying to convince everyone that their book of Mormon is true rather than devoting all their time to teaching anything out of it.
Mormons believe they can be married for all eternity.
The bible tells us that there is NO marriage beyond this life.
It also tells us that there is neither male nor female.
Mormons choose to believe fables over the truth which is the Holy Bible.
Jesus leads to salvation.
Joseph leads to damnation.
So Mormons, who will you choose? Jesus or Joseph?
Interesting. I hadn't thought about it like you presented, the historical developments along with the mythology helps a lot in the understanding. I'm not Mormon, having been Roman Catholic for many years. I converted to Wicca in my mid-30s and when I was teaching, I had a two week class I taught on comparative religions, since I believe that you really shouldn't go into a religion without knowing what else is out there. I'm also a historian and I find historical religious development very interesting. I just found this channel and have spent several hours today digging through the videos. Great work, everyone! I can recommend a comparative study of the various beliefs of that umbrella group called Paganism/NeoPaganism, the development of the various sects. As I said, this was interesting history, thank you for making it.
The book of Mormon changed my life!
How? Did it make you more gullible?
@@richarner3856 sure 🤣🤣🤣 That's why I belong to the only religion that has a positive correlation with education
I appreciate your calm scientific approach to these very complex and sensitive topics instead of taking the more common route of calling it all a cult ❤️
Well, using the definition he gave is his video on Armstrongism, Mormonism doesn't qualify as a cult. An argument could be made for them meeting the definition in the days of Joseph Smith, but as the old adage goes cult + time = main stream religion.
Since watching this video, I decided to read "View of the Hebrews". Comparing that to the Book of Mormon, I don't think it's a reasonable secular conclusion that it was a source of the Book of Mormon. It is very anti-Semitic where the Book of Mormon is very pro. It is not a story. It is basically an argument on why the author believes the Native Americans were the lost tribe. It teaches doctrine that is really contrary to Mormonism. Other than the basic idea that Aboriginal Americans came from Jerusalem, there isn't a connection at all. Joseph Smith wouldn't need View of the Hebrews for that idea. If it's a book that is completely made up, in the secular point of view, he is an incredible writer and theologian.
Now that Abrahamic religions have been covered, I believe it's time to move on to Hindu sacred litterature.
Hell probably go that way, but there are other relevant abrahamic religions (JW and Bahai come to mind). Also, spiritism is highly influenced by Christianity and would also be interesting.
One of the things I love about these types of videos on Matt's channel is the comment section, always full of people sharing other resources or lines of inquiry into other religions, usually more esoteric ones or ones with very small, but devoted followers.
I'm happy the nemenhah records have now come forward. Thank you to the native Americans for making this possible. It backs the book of Mormon, but goes far deeper.
LDS here, great video.
You make excellent videos my friend. I am LDS and, although I disagree with some of the points you made (especially in the latter half of your video), I think this was fairly thorough and very enjoyable.
It is always interesting to see the perspective of non LDS humans commenting on my beliefs. I would love to have your notes and sources.
Thanks for the great videos. @UsefulCharts
One thing I just realized in defence of Joseph's authentic seership is the fact that it took millenia to bring the writings of the ancient biblical accounts, in all their complex doctrinal teachings that reference each other because the writings came at different time periods therefore different authors, to the rest of the world, and that is clearly identifiable even to the novice reader of the Bible. The same feeling is received in the Book of Mormon, that whilst the book itself is an abridgement of a collection of writings, there is a panoramic view given to the reader, so that they can identify readily with the changing scenery, yet Joseph Smith had the foresight to embed unlimited doctrinal references in the same way the Bible references itself, but Joseph Smith created this intellectually written, sweeping historical account that spans millenia, and all within a period of time that equates to less than a year.
It's a bold piece of writing that he must've known would've been scrutinized to the nth degree, just as the Bible had been analysed for centuries earlier as a religious text, and here he was "creating" something new that the Christian world at that time he knew would call it heresay. He was literally taking the Christian world of his era and turning it on its head by introducing "new" scripture. Noone in their right mind would have dared to do such a thing I don't think. Which is why, to date, noone has. Nowadays if you wanted to create your own religion you can. Today is far less religious than it was in Joseph's day, at least it seems to be more tolerable to not believe in the Christian God of the "west" nowadays. So if a person wants to make one up, there's nothing to stop them doing it or to come up with new scripture that references and supports the biblical accounts. Yet noone would dare try, and I don't know that anyone has? I suspect because what would you say, barring regurgitating what the Bible says? Joseph Smith brought not only a new way of understanding the traditional scriptural records, but also introduced new scripture. Scripture that noone had heard before. And that was only the parts that were canonized. There are other hundreds of writings/utterings that he made, like blessings and sermons he gave that were also recorded and archived. It's a monumental contribution. He bridged the gap between ancient and modern revelation and brought them to sit at the same table. It's quite mind blowing when I stop for a minute to think about it.
It's so encouraging to read that so many Mormons are now ex Mormons as a result of videos such as these.
Those poor deceived souls need to see the truth. They need to be set free from their religious bondage. The darkness needs to be exposed. For light swallows up darkness. So the more light that is shone on the mormon deception/delusion, the more people will come out of her.
Well done!!
Praise Jesus, for he is the way the truth the life and the light of this dark world.
"As a result of videos like this" Actually, nope. If someone decides to leave the church, then they go around posting how much they like anything and everything against the church, no matter how far-fetched. The Book of Mormon is true. I read it and the Bible with my family. You're really missing out
This video made me understand the Mormons much better and feel even closer with them
Yes, Matt Baker, you do a very good job showing the history of these religions something most of them skim through or outrightly avoid in their studies and creed. As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I'd love to see how you share your academic viewpoint on my religion. I love your objective review and concise presentation. I love @UsefulCharts videos. New Sub here!
11:14 Wait... there's a claim that the Book of Mormon is set in Malaysia? This is the first time I've heard of this claim!
Why do I hear Malaysia mentioned in the weirdest and most unexpecting of places? XD
I'm not a Mormon, but I understand the Malaysian hypothesis is because 1. the Book of Mormon describes a route into Arabia and then through the Indian Ocean, which better fits a journey to Southeast Asia than through the Pacific to the Americas, 2. there have been Jewish and Christian communities in India and Southeast Asia, 3. the Book of Mormon appears to refer to iron tools, to horses, and possibly to elephants, and 4. there is a Narrow Neck of Land in what's now southern Thailand.
It is called..."grasping at straws". (Because they know that the "it happened in the America's, is so outlandish an idea...that they are grasping at the "Malaysian" theory). It is all made up by Joseph Smith. Made up. Fiction. Period.
@@baberoot1998 Most likely the Malaysian hypothesis is a measure of how much of Joe Smith's story would fit anywhere with suitable geography, and suitable conditions. But suppose it's actually true. Suppose Joe Smith found and miraculously translated a history of the Malay peninsula, which a last exile brought to the Americas for safe-keeping. Suppose it can be proven. Some of his interpretations would be spectacularly wrong. So that would do nothing to confirm Joe Smith's later teachings, let along Brigham Young's, and if anything, it would raise more questions.
Thanks for this. As an ex-Mormon I found it gave a helpful perspective on what I once was very committed to.
There were 11 formal witnesses to the golden plates. Many of them eventually left the church because of disagreements with Joseph, yet none of them ever denied their testimonies of having seen the plates. Oliver Cowdery, Joseph's scribe for much of the translation, ended up working as a prosecuting attorney in the state of Michigan after leaving the church, and was challenged a the plantiff's lawyer in one case on his testimony. Under oath he stated:
"May it please the court, and gentlemen of the jury, my brother attorney on the other side has charged me with connection with Joseph Smith and the golden Bible. The responsibility has been placed upon me, and I cannot escape reply. Before God and man I dare not deny what I have said, and what my testimony contains and as written and printed on the front page of the Book of Mormon. May it please your honor and gentlemen of the jury, this I say, I saw the angel and heard his voice-how can I deny it? It happened in the daytime when the sun was shining bright in the firmament; not in the night when I was asleep. That glorious messenger from heaven, dressed in white, standing above the ground, in a glory I have never seen anything to compare, with the sun insignificant in comparison, and these personages told us if we denied that testimony there is no forgiveness in this life nor in the world to come. Now how can I deny it-I dare not; I will not!"
This is just one such example, but none of the witnesses denied their testimony of seeing the plates.
What was he supposed to do? Admit that he's a liar to the opposing council, not only destroying his credibility as a lawyer but also ruining any chance of rejoining the church? Just burn all his bridges at once?
As to the Mormons, Joseph Smith Jr.'s mother Lucy Mack is my 2nd Cousin, 7x removed.
Hello. I really love this series which I find very instructive. Would you consider doing a video on the Baha'i faith ?
No.
Sorry.
This was amazing, even though I am not a member of the LDS I have read several chapters of the Book of Mormon and found it a pretty good read. I plan to finish it in the future.
Wow! It has a nice message. You can pray for it as well. ❤
Rastafarianism would be super interesting to look into due to the lineage aspect.
My MiL and FIL are Mormon. Though before his death my FIL was not temple recommended and my MIL still isn’t. My partner was “baptized” Mormon (say baptized but like can happen with the Mikveh, he never quite got a kosher dunk, so we haven’t decided if it “took” or not). I am a happy Jew and my partner is working on converting.
I say all that to compliment this video. It is rare to get something from never-Mormon that is handled with this much respect and sensitivity while still treating it historically. This is a great video I hope more Mormons see to better understand their scriptures, and given you aren’t an ex-Mormon, you aren’t the Mormon Devil like say, John Delin. Nor are you a scholar who spent time debunking say the book of Abraham like the Egyptologist who sadly recently passed in the last few years. This is a great resource, like all your videos and I am so grateful you put this content out.
Reading “Jesus comes to America” is the wildest thing I’ve read today.
I hate to tell you but He also visited 'other sheep', not just those on the American continent.
Great video, I found the whole nephite lamanite subplot hard to sit through, but the discussion about interpretations and literary influences was an excellent summary of the subject matter. ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ 5 stars!
This was very well done, I'm impressed with how thorough you could be in just 27 minutes. Another point that I think is important is how good of a storyteller Joseph Smith was. In his mother's journal, she talks about how he could make up stories for hours, and specifically talked about stories he told concerning the native americans and their origins. He also was very involved in several different denominations, and a few of the stories in the book of mormon are very, very similar to accounts of sermons of the day. It's also important to note that both the First Vision and the visitations from Moroni weren't mentioned until a few years after the Book of Mormon was published. There are no journals that directly describe or allude to any visitations during Joseph's youth, nor any persecution he faced during that period.
As always, this was very well done. And the fact that you've seemed to satisfy both the active members as well as ex-members in the comment section, I'd say you've done very well.
This is gold, Matt, keep 'em coming! It would be interesting to see you cover:
-African religions across the world (series?)
-Hasidic Judaism and it's dynasties (series)
-Nizari Isma'ilism, its lineages of Imams, and other patrilinear lines from Caliph Ali (maybe a series)
-More videos on different forms of Christianity
-The Bahá'í Faith
-Theosophists, it's derivations, and the like... maybe even Rosacrucianism and Freemasonry
Ooh, I vote for African diaspora religions!
Everytime I think of Mormonism I can't help think of South Park.
Just found this channel, and I love the different historical analyses in family lines and stuff.
I want to clarify that the Book of Mormon states the Nephites were destroyed circa 385 AD, not 485 AD. Moroni finishes his record later as the last survivor, so perhaps that's where the 4-- comes from.
I appreciate the look at this perspective of Book of Mormon and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I want to mention the preferred shortenings for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are the Church of Jesus Christ or the Restored Church of Jesus Christ rather than LDS or Mormon, and members of the Church of Jesus Christ are called Latter-day Saints.
Again, this was super neat to watch. I'll be checking out more stuff from this channel.
Props!
Thank you for that video. It gave a well overview of that topic. And I learned even something (Malaysia Hypothesis). Honestly I had hoped, to find a deeper answer into the question WHO actually wrote it. Writing-Analytics seem to indicate that it actually was Smith. But it is to me still hard to believe he could have done it alone. And the supporting theories are to me a bit too fuzzy. But going into this topic would be probably too deep for such a channel and bore the majority of the audience who are not so much into mormonism details. :D
As an ex-Mormon, I enjoyed this video very much! Everything was spot on and I even learned some new things. Thanks for this video! I love your material!
Loving your videos on different scriptures, it's very fascinating to learn
I love this channel. I've learnt so many nuggets of wisdom helping to shape my opinion on these religions. Thank you!
I saw a production o the musical play The Book of Mormon a few years ago, at a large theater in St. Lous Missouri. The place was packed, even unto the slightly giddy heights where I sat. People laughed at all the expected places, but I was one of the select who laughed at some unexpected references. I am not deeply knowledgeable abbot the subject, but knew enough. I wondered then and still wonder how many of the audience members missed the point of the satire, and whose enjoyment was purely flawed and superficial. I asked a woman seated next to me what she knew about J. Smith and his church--she looked at me as if I had made some bad joke or lewd remark, and hurried away when the final curtain came down. Thanks for this cogent, concise and informative presentation.
Joseph Smith sounds like such an alias 😂
Thanks Matt, it'd be brilliant if you covered other religions as well. I'm learning here
How about something on the more esoteric stuff? Golden Dawn, Thelema, Crowley, and the relationship between those and some of the later religions like Wicca, Neo-Paganism, and even Scientology. I think it'd make for a great chart/video based on influences like you've done here.
Agreed. I thought about how interesting some of these may be as well- Scientology also came to mind for me. I’d like a thorough chart of it. All we have now is the South Park episode.
Yes please!
@@richard2524 You need big ɓalls to do that, and probably not on YT. Copyright and such. SP only got away with that AND a libel suit because they wrote the episode in such a way that even the lawsuit-happy CoS knew that it would blow up in their face, and that only worked because SP is a big name.....
Book of Urantia?
Ah yeah, the ol' magic glasses. I got mine from an advert in the back of a comic book
Thank you
Very interesting video again. I don't think you've done a complete overview of the various forms of Christianity yet? But based on these video there are probably several videos in there: early christianity before the Council of Nicea and/or up until the Reformation, the development of Protestantism in both Europe and North America after the Reformation.
Lovely video! It's mostly accurate, with only a few name discrepancies (Martin Harris and Sydney Rigdon were swapped in the story of the lost 116 pages)
My only real issue is that Joseph Smith simply couldn't have somehow faked the Book of Mormon. No person who believes in God would do such a thing, and no person who doesn't believe in God would be capable of doing it without being a full time scholar of everything religious. Joseph Smith, who only had a very limited education, would have had to have planned to be a cult leader from the age of 14 and been such a good liar that he convinced his whole family to either join him in the lies or to believe them themselves to the point that several of his family member's lives were threatened and even Joseph himself and his brother were murdered for their beliefs.
If the Book of Mormon was easily faked by a farm boy with little to no education and he was simply an opportunist cult leader, why has nobody else come up with anything similar?
Anyone who has actually read the Book of Mormon knows that it isn't the work of a lazy, poorly educated individual. It has powerfully written stories and testimonies, quotes and verses that hold significant value to thousands of people, it was clearly well thought out and most likely written by a ton of people over a very long time. If it isn't genuine it is the most anomaloustic work ever produced.
I find it far more likely that it is a true record than any possibility that it could have been faked, simply due to the vast quantity of coincidences that seemed to have worked in its favor. Joseph Smith described the 'Golden Plates' as having a slight green rust on the corners of some pages and being a fair amount lighter than what a real fully gold record of the dimensions he described should have weighed. At the time this was attributed to his lack of education, people claimed he was too stupid to know that gold doesn't rust and that it is a lot heavier than he thought. Additionally the idea of an ancient civilization using metal plates to keep records was unheard of, another supposed example of Joseph's stupidity. However, since then, ancient records of lost civilizations kept on metal plates have been found all over the world, not only that, but several have been found using a gold alloy that includes a few other metals that lead to the pages having a greenish rust and weighing less than a 14 karat gold record would have, exactly as Joseph described his gold plates.
Whether the Book of Mormon is a fictional work or not is a far more complicated issue than simply: "the concept that Native Americans may have been of Hebrew decent is not an original idea, ergo the book is false."
I believe claiming Joseph could have written it himself is simply giving him too much credit, he's not that much of a mastermind. He could barely spell, much less orchestrate an entire religion around an original 500+ page book of his own creation.
Genuinely curious since you seem to know a lot about the subject, but as a Mormon how do you deal with / explain the Jewish native Americans not being factual combined with the lack of evidence supporting these peoples, much less contradicting their existence. I have never been able to meet a Mormon so I am curious and hopeful to hear from you.
As a Mormon myself I am very happy you were respectful of our religion. Many, many people online are not and I am very appreciative of your respect. Thanks.
I've loved your videos and as a member of the LDS church was very surprised when I came across this video. I thought you did a great job but was a little disappointed by some of the points you make, for example it wasn't just Joseph Smith who saw angels and visions but also other witnesses including the twelve apostles.
Wonderful presentation of the facts! You have done such great work and it’s a pleasure to listen and watch all of your videos
Cool, I remember being drawn into religious studies whilst in college.
I had my foot in many different doors while TRYING to choose A program of study, - it was hopeless.
Religious studies were a natural interest for me with a powerful penchant for a dozen subfields within philosophy.
But of course one interest led to another; I finally ended up cursing destiny in that I had not a dozen more lives to live - it simply is NOT POSSIBLE to adequately learn confined to a single one of them.
Revelation was regarded as yet another source of knowledge so philosophy alone had to fall short.
Speaking of Mormonism, I have never in the whole of my life, - ever had the company of any more plesant people. It is a rather gross understatement to say that I personally have never witnessed a people, community, culture, ANY religion, or overall attitude toward all life as well as the world around us, - with a more plesant and impressive life and world view.
Agreed
Sikhism would be good. W.H. McLeod's take on the Janam-sakhis would be a good starting point.
The multitudinous versions of Buddhism would be greatly interesting as well, but that'd probably have to be a series.
This is seriously impressive for someone who is not LDS! You have definitely done your homework-more so than many church members!
As someone who grew up mormon, this guy is SPOT ON Correct! Which is nice because it goes to the true integrity and validity of all his videos of many other religions and histories.
so what happened next? where are you now in your faith
Personally, I may attend church once in a while to be with friends and family, but I no longer attend the temple. The temple has nothing to do with Jesus or being a Christian but a form of idol worship among its members.@@HarshitGarg-CRA