Mail Call Mondays Season 7 #37 - Fire-forming before Load Workup
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 พ.ย. 2024
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Fire-forming before Load Workup 00:01
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I'm honored to have a mail call Monday on my question! Thanks John! When I sent you my message my wife went into labor later that night! So now I'm a proud dad of a health strong baby boy! Hopefully I'll find the time within the next year to get my load development done. Lol. Again John, thank you!
.260-Buy brass, check o.a.l, load and go. Fire forming before load developement is splitting hairs.
Great channel John.🇺🇸
I too use the velocity method for load workup. As far as “fire forming” brass I don’t specifically shoot to form the brass but when starting with new brass and a new rifle I will usually throw a mid to upper charge from the book and a cheaper “match” bullet, typically a Hornady BTHP for the first round. This gets the barrel up to speed and also fire forms the brass so I can bump the shoulder back .001”-.002” when FL Sizing.
I think a consistent upload covering one topic thoroughly per week is excellent and makes topics easier to find in your past video list.
I use to fire-form before load work-up but have stopped wasting the time and components as I found that with the Satterlee method (finding a velocity node), it made virtually no difference as long as I find a velocity node of +/- 0.2 to 0.3gr charge weight variance. For example, with my current 6.5cm, shooting 147gr ELD-M's, I found a Node that I'm averaging 2671fps with an 10shot SD of 3.6 and ES of 8 even at +/- 0.2gr difference, I'm only changing about 0.4 on the SD and 1 to 2fps on the ES. I saw this same difference between new vs. once fired (i.e., fire-formed).
The only thing I do for brand new brass is run it through my Sinclair neck expander mandrel. From there I load and shoot. What I have found, at least on my 6.5 Creedmoor and 6.5x47L brass, is the load will tend to be around 20fps slower than previously fired brass. I have also noticed that Extreme Spread will tend to be a bit wider with the new brass. You can still identify accuracy nodes and/or velocity nodes, they just might not be as pronounced.
I’m so glad you did this video. I’m getting ready to start a load work up on a brand new 260 and I’ve been stressing about this. This really put me at ease so thank you! Next video could you maybe talk about barrel speed up?
My semi-auto guns get full length sized every firing (223/556, 300blk). 22-250AI gets fire-formed for obvious reasons, but I also worked up an accurate load to use while fire-forming.
I worked up a load in my 308 bolt gun while fire-forming a few hundred pieces of Lake City brass, but that is mostly because I bought once fired machine-gun brass (never again) and had a lot of trouble sizing it. The next loading was neck sized only and the groups were marginally smaller. Larger differences were seen from varying seating depth than from using fire-formed brass.
My last box of Lapua brass for my 6.5 Creedmoor sucked. Looking inside the brass, the flash holes didn't even look round. I bought a K&M flash hole tool to fix them. Quality control was out sick the day they were made. I've never had a problem before.
I don't mess with flash holes but i do now Anneal (Salt Bath) neck tension is key
Glad to see you rocking a hellfire in your video!
Thanks for another informative video! I’ve used the OCW or a ladder method with fireformed brass for every rifle I’ve had, up until now. Always felt like that was a lot of excessive wear and tear and components. I shot a “Satterlee string” over the weekend with my new 6.5 Creedmoor and virgin Lapua brass and ELD-M bullets. I have a plateau around 2640 FPS and loaded up 5 rounds of 3 different charges. We’ll see how they do.
I’ve always full-length sized my brass (300 Win Mag), so fire-forming isn’t really doing much since I squish the cases back down.
I like your advice about finding a plateau. I had trouble this year with hits at extreme long range and my instructor said it was my standard deviation. Maybe finding a spot in the center of that plateau will make my cartridges less sensitive to deviations in charge weight.
If I full lengths size I don't get much firings out of my brass so I just neck size. But I do get better groups when I neck turn my brass and I get more speed. 300win mag
I’ve gotten unlucky so far with the “order of operations” of: 1-ladder & flat spot 2- confirming low SD with 5 shot group 3- seating depth variation & group shooting. These low SD loads have so far given bad vertical dispersion (1.5-2 MOA at 300 yards, where group was sub MOA at 100) so now I feel like it IS important to be grouping during your initial ladder testing among various powders. Other loads that group very well with 15-20 SD are doing a little better at 300. I’m sort of lost at this point, I guess I’m just trying to say that it’s good to gather multiple observations at once so you don’t waste your time assuming low SD automatically gives you good vertical dispersion at distance.
Thanks for the info John! I just picked up my first box of Lapua 308win. And was wondering the same thing. Keep up the great vids.
Great, informative video!
Hi John. I hear what you are saying about not needing to fire-form prior to load work up. My question is a similar though line but regarding new barrels. If I have purchased/ had built a new rifle, without considering different opinions on barrels break-in and cleaning methods, would you wait until your barrel velocity has settled (approx. 100-150 rounds) prior to load development? I am just wondering whether it is worth using factory ammo for that first section until velocity has settled and whether the velocity node may shift as the barrel speeds up. Thanks, loving your videos all the way from NZ.
No fire forming for me, but I do record velocities for when ever I get new Lapua brass, I also keep the same load data, after the first full length size my brass, the groups are more tight.
8541 tactical I agree with using virgin brass for load work up. But, With my experiences I will only use virgin brass for the initial velocity test. I have actually seen a load that was developed with virgin brass, meaning initial powder charge test, seating depth test and fine tuning the powder charge all done with virgin brass. Once the fired brass was used the accuracy could not be replicated with that load. Powder charge and seating depth had to be adjusted slightly. Lapua brass is what was being used.
My best guess is that the difference was caused by the necks having more tension than what you get from fired brass along with the lack of carbon increasing grip on the bullet. I come to this conclusion because of the different of force required to seat the bullet in virgin brass vs fired brass. Also I have heard from other fclass shooters that when their necks are completely clean with no carbon in them their accuracy is also degraded.
Another concern I have with using virgin brass is the primer pockets with full power loads. I seem to get less loads before they become to lose if I hammer them on the first firing.
Since I'm assuming you have people watching that shoot cartridges ranging in size I think it's worth noting that the amount of effect on accuracy all the variables have is dependent on the size of the case. For instance a 223 vs something the size of a 308. .2 grains of powder in my 308 is hardly noticeable on target if at all. .2 grains of powder either way in my 223 will take you out of a node. This assuming I am in the middle.
So I guess starting load development with virgin brass is ok, but depending on what your goal is, fine tuning with fired brass is necessary. I shoot f-class and from what I've read and heard others say, generally speaking people dont get as picky about their accuracy in disciplines like PRS.
Anyways just my thoughts and experiences. In hope I explained them clearly enough.
No need to fire-form.... ADG is very good brass out of the box. I just H2O some cases to get the volume and recalculate the charge on quickload. ... 10 round later the load hits 1/2moa. One trick is to get the neck tension the same...sinclair expander mandrell's.
Hi, When you play with the seating depth : does it change the Space in your brass witch play and pression and velocity ? Have you the same nodes independently of seating depth ?
Zaitchev the main result sought from seating depth variation is determining how far a particular projectile prefers to “jump” between it’s start point and the rifling engagement
Got a question for ya.. i have a R700 in .300 (same as yours) and have been having extraction issues with factory ammo. After the shot it takes considerable effort to extract the spent case. Plan on sending the rifle back... again.... but i am curious what you think could be causing this issue
I just came back from the range yesterday. Several of of us were discussing how we reload. I said that I deprime using a universal deprimer first, then clean for about 10 minutes with SS pins, then anneal with my AMP 2, then full length resize bringing the shoulder back 0.002" and finally use a expander mandrel that is 0.002" smaller then the bullet diameter. All of them said do not full length resize just use and expander mandrel. I think it is required to full length resize but all of said no. Your opinion??
Bumping the shoulder is a good technique to keep your cartridges chambering smoothly. If you only ever neck sized, the brass stretches and becomes hard to chamber. How much of an issue this is depends on the brass and the action you are using. In your situation I would use a “body only” die to bump the shoulder instead of a FL Sizing die. Otherwise you are working the neck twice.
I put more effort into my fire formed load work up with my 300win mag because I size to the chamber, with belted magnums there is usually a more Measurable difference between fired and unfired brass. With both of my 260rems there is very little difference in size between fired and unfired.
How long is that barrel? Thinking about shortening my 20”
Does fireforming using COW or cornmeal do any damage to a barrel? I would think very little if any. I have a match grade Bartlein barrel that I need to fireform so cases.
Not that I have seen.
no fire forming for me , I use Lake a City national match brass in my 308 which I shoot quite a lot , I also like Norma for my 300 Win Mag and Lapua in my 338 Lapua mag and commercial for my other calibers , to many guns not enough time
I have tried the velocity load work up method twice so far with two different cartridges (308 & 6.5CM) and each time I cant identify a node that stands out. SD of about 8fps most often. I end up needing to rely on group sizes to pick my load. Not sure why I get this result. Brass fire formed. Neck annealed. 0.002 tight. Powder within 1 kernel. Inside of neck brushed out and a small amount of lube on projectiles. Just about as uniform and consistent as I can make them. Still no clear velocity node pattern. Am I missing something??
Take my brass away...🎶
Fireform small batch for workup and then load rest of the new brass to that load. But keep going either down the rabbit hole, can feel the difference in minor neck variations while seating the bullets...don't wanna neck turn...I don't wanna neck turn... maybe should switch to Lapua from Hornady.
Thomas Ewers
When I switched from Hornady to Lapua, I analyzed 100 round lots of each for consistency of weight, concentricity and neck wall thickness. Lapua wins hands down in every category. If you’re really into making quality precision rounds for long range, make the switch and never look back. Good luck!
Where do we get one of those mags with your logo etched in it???
Accurate Ordnance sent that to us awhile back. If there is a lot of interest in them, I can check into pricing.
I do not fire form anymore unless it’s for one of my AI chambers. I would be very interested in a video demonstrating that velocity based method. If there is already a good one out there if you could leave a link that would be great.
gary shaw Thank you, I will definitely check it out.
Question sir I run out of windage when trying to zero my 6.5. Ruger American. Even after trying to adjust I am still 8 MOA from center. Is that a scope issue ? Or do I need to check something else out
Sound like scope to me do you have an extra scope to see if that is the problem?
Check that your scope base is straight and parallel with the barrel. I had a RPR in .223 and the receiver was drilled/tapped 16 MOA to the right.
Thanks for that. I'll have to check that out
If base and rings are tight, and as Mr. Stephens suggests, another scope also won't adjust enough for windage, have the holes in the action for mounting the base checked. They can be off by quit a bit, and not be detectable to the eye.
@Edwin V. I have a video on a crooked rain on a Ruger American. I fixed it using the Burris XTR Signature rings to center the scope up. I would take a true straight edge and place it along the side of the rail and see if it runs true or not. If it's crooked send it back to Ruger.
No fire forming for me, zero interest in cartridges which require fire forming to make brass. No thanks! By the way, I also use Scott Satterlee's velocity method.
Random question what do people think of the 277 Wolverine for a bolt action build with a 20-23 inch