I'm no pro and I'm relatively new to road biking but one thing I did that helped is use more of my core to keep my body in position shoulders somewhat relaxed rather than putting too much of the work on my shoulders/arms on my handlebars and creating a more slouched position, hope this makes sense!!
Hi there, we can tackle this one quite quickly actually. Saddles should always be flat, never up, and in certain cases slightly down. That said, for pros, the UCI actually stipulates that saddles must be level, so they don't even get a choice. If the seat is slightly up, it can put pressure where you really don't want it, and if it is slightly down, it can put more weight through your arms and hands, causing problems elsewhere. Hope that helps!
Global Cycling Network Why should the UCI get to decide rider comfort and choice of saddle tilt angle? This is personal to an individual. I don't see how or why the UCI should have any say.
Hi! We've got more videos coming up on bike fit. In the meantime you could head to your local bike shop - they'll be able to advise on what size components will suit you.
very helpful as usual GCN - finding the right fit on your own takes a lot of tinkering. i've had my newest road bike for just over a year now and only in the past 3 weeks have i found what i think is close to the right fit - that came by adjusting the saddle height 30mm UP and rotating the bars AWAY - i'm now much more comfortable but it kind of went against my instinct, to make my position more aggressive to be more comforatble didn't make sense but it worked! :-)
Great, simple video. I don't even know what to do anymore. I am in Los Angeles and two bike fits later, I am more frustrated than ever. My first bike fitter suggested putting an almost comical amount of lifts on my cleats. This actually caused an injury. The same fitter suggested a bike that is too small for me. My gut told me that both recommendations were wrong. But, "he is the pro," I told myself. I am now on my second bike fit. Now, this guy is considered "the" bike fitter in Orange County (CA). He made some great adjustments, except for the reach. I had just got used to my previous fit. Not sure why he decided to change to a longer stem. Now, I feel like I am reaching too much. What is worst is that that I now have a lot of pressure on my crotch area. My first fit was $450 and my second is $300. That is an insane amount of money for such average results at best. By the way, every bike fitter will tell you the same story: That your previous fit is wrong and that they know better. Super frustrated.
Would love to see some more videos on saddle and bar adjustments for hybrid straight bar bikes. Also some examples like if you are having pain near back or shoulders what could be wrong type of suggestions.
The position will be fairly different, especially at the front of the bike, with higher bars and a shorter stem. Saddle height won't be too different although you may find it helps to have a little lower than you would on the road. Hope that helps!
Thank you for this short explanation! It was thorough and explained things better than in any other video. You explained the why of wanting the reach longer or shorter or why the layback should be longer or shorter. That helped me to understand everything. Thank you.
I have been riding my road bike for more than ten years now and have finally gotten serious about adjusting it to fit me. The video is good as it outlines the fundamental steps in order: saddle height, saddle fore-aft and reach. I have been adjusting saddle fore-aft and have found that having the saddle further aft makes my riding dramatically more powerful and comfortable. I'm more powerful because I am leaning over more and that makes me use my core muscles more and I'm more comfortable because in this position more of my weight is on my seat and pedals, where it should be, and not on my hands. It is not immediately obvious that moving the saddle aft will take weight off your hands but it does. As far as I am concerned this is a crucial result of the adjustment. I checked casually for my knee over pedal position and figure my knee is aft of the pedal spindle but I'm sure it doesn't matter. Knee over pedal is just a guideline.
Also whenever you move your saddle forward or back, it will change your knee angle at the bottom of the pedal stroke. So re-check your knee angles whenever you move your saddle forward or back. Generally move your saddle forward & up, and backwards & down. And the bottom of the pedal stroke isn't necessarily at the 6 o'clock position, it's basically when your leg is at it's straightest point; that point is usually between the 5 and 6 o'clock position.
The theory goes that the more aero your position, the more you have to tilt your pelvis forward to maintain a good pedalling position. This means that as you've noticed, a rider will need to bring their saddle forward to compensate, much as they would on a TT bike. The best idea is to go with what works for you, and ignore the trends.
Hey, GCN. I'm a 15 year old cyclist and I try to ride 50-100kms every week. Can you guys please do a video on how to become a stronger cyclist for those who are starting out? Is it better to do shorter, high intensity work-outs on the trainer, or is it better to get out and go on longer rides? Cheers.
Hi I'm a 3 month old fetus, and I've been riding for 4 months, but seem to have plateoed. I ride 125km every week, can you make a video on how to get stronger? Cheers
You're right that KOPS doesn't take into account your torso etc, but that is precisely why it is so effective. It sets your saddle for optimum pedalling efficiency, and then adjusting reach and height is what takes into account torso length and flexibility.
EFFECTIVE TOP TUBE LENGTH...EFFECTIVE TOP TUBE LENGTH....EFFECTIVE TOP TUBE LENGTH....that is THE PRIMARY consideration in selecting a frame size and then adjusting the nuances of a shorter/longer stem, moving saddle forward/backward, adjusting crank length and cleat placement. But almost no one recognizes effective top tube length as the primary consideration for fit. And because of that reason bicycle fitting is a "voo-doo" practice of almost hit or miss. Sheldon Brown explains this VERY well.
Auckland Bike Fit Leave it to The Kiwis to understand bike fit!. I bought so many wrong sized bikes over the years at the behest of bike shop employees. I'm 6 feet tall. Every time I walk into a bike shop people say "Oh, you're 6 feet...you'd ride a 56cm." But I have a short torso and long legs. These are typically more female dimensions. Ive found heaven on a ETT of 54cm....maybe it's 54.5. But the 2cm shorter than my other "normal sized" bike make the former: HEAVEN TO RIDE I'm not now adjusting my saddle back and forth and my handlebars to and fro...I just feel: COMFORTABLE. Tom Boonen is 6'3"-4" and he rides a 54cm bike with a 150-160mm stem!. But it's the length not height that's important.
michael allen I'm the same.. 6' and bought the giant TCR in a M/L frame but I over stretch far too much.. I've changed the stem from 110 to 70 which makes a huge difference but also had to move seat forward a long way... Wish I had bought the medium frame and not looked at the official sizing guides...
Wrong. Effective top tube fails to account for seat tube angle, and head tube angle along with stack, which determine whether even with the proper saddle height and setback you will be able to set bars correctly relative to the saddle. Reach is the key measure that ignores frame particulars and looks at the key distance from bottom bracket to top of headtube. Steep or shallow seat tube angles can make a top tube +/- 50mm but a rider can end up sitting exactly in the same spot by using different seatposts and setbacks. Reach and stack dictate the limitations available to change the front half of the cockpit; stems on road bikes rarely go shorter than 6cm, and extra-high spacing to raise bars is limited as well. If one already has a bike that fits, measuring reach and stack can quickly show if another bike is going to be viable without trying to calculate from frame dimensions.
Yeah, absolutely. Bear in mind though that aerodynamics are not really important at all in mountain biking so when setting up the reach to the bars, it is all about control.
When riding up a hill in the saddle, try to feel what muscles you are using. It might help to pedal at a lower cadence. The other way, is to see if you are pushing back in the saddle when riding (glutes) or shifting forward (quads).
Id like to see vids on how bikefit differs according to discipline, road vs cross vs MTB. Also it would be great to get one on frame geometry and how it affects handling etc. Cheers!
You look so... young! Thankfully, this great, short tutorial offers timeless, practical advice. Much appreciated as I dial in my new gravel bike (Obed Boundary). And don't worry, Si, you're still way younger and faster than me!
Most pro's have a fixed saddle position and then leave it. They get very fussy about moving it as your muscles get used to a certain position. If it's in the right place, then we recommend leaving it.
That's a brilliant, succinct summary of the adjustments needed. There seems to be another basic issue, which is the frame size? What are the issues there please? Plus, I'm looking for a more upright comfort ride rather than performance. When I scroll through pages of hybrid bikes I'm pretty much only seeing handlebar setups that require leaning forward, and I don't want to be putting that kind of pressure on my wrists any more. I think you're going to say the answer is go to a good bike shop, but I just thought I'd float the question.
Hi Carlos, probably your best bet is to go to a bike shop and see about getting your riding position analysed - you can spend a long time trying to find the right thing to sort out your position, but a professinoal bike fit will really help.
I definitely think it should be stressed that these are tips to give you a general starting point, but that you should not be afraid to experiment and find what works best for you. Just because the guy at the bike shop says it's right, doesn't mean it is. The by-the-book KOPS setup is dreadful for some riders. I found that I always had way too much weight on my hands, and always felt I was sliding forward off my seat. Moving the seat back a bit increased my power significantly, and made riding way more comfortable in general. Also, as I ride in the drops 90% of the time, a shorter more angled stem puts them at a better position, when I want a super-aero tuck, I just bend my elbows a bit more. If you're an average height light-weight cyclist, on a mid size frame, These tips will probably be quite close, but if you're really tall/short/heavy, etc. you'll probably find that your ideal setup could be quite different.
Great video! I have an advanced video idea for tt bikes. What about if/ then style with options like... shoulder pain try this, under power moving off the front of the saddle try that, height adjustments of saddle for sitting up vs in aero position, plumline during aero vs. standard reach for sitting upright, too much use of hamstrings try this.
I thought my saddle was spot on and then today I shifted it back and down just a couple of mm and the difference was noticeable. Bit less weight on my wrists, cornering was better, descending was better, saddle more comfortable. My legs still hurt for the last 10km (of 104), but in a different, much more manageable way.
Well done Simon I am one of those guilty of moving their saddle to get a good bar to saddle reach so your advice on altering my stem reach once I had achieved a good KOPS was welcomed. Although Peter White questions the validity of the KOPS method.
Very old school method with no REAL science behind it. I stopped using this back in the mid 2000's. Fitting should be more individual, KOPS tends to put many people to far back on the seat, locking out the hip flexor and stretching all the muscles throughout the back of the body.
Ted Edwards KOPS method doesn't work for me unless im riding a bike with a frame that is undersized for me. im 6'1" and generally ride a 57 (tt) and a 59 (road ). My seat is is more like knee over toes! lol... this feels good for me. Everyone has a different set up. My stem on the 59 bike is 90mm.. I can ride for hours with no issues
The key is to have a goal. You have to set a goal by selecting a specific date you aim towards. Its also important to identify the type of goal so you can train accordingly, your not going to perform well in an short intense effort with only long base miles in the legs however you would still be able to do good in a longer event with only intensity training but your endurance would be lacking. The best is to balance intensity out. REST is VERY important to adaptation of your training!!!
What about heel in / heel out? This would help to ensure there is no unnecessary knee-rotation. Cleat adjustment? Thanks guys! Keep up the awesome work! (Cool jersey, by the way!)
(sry for my bad englisch) the follow of adjustings is correct, also that the sattle position ist fix because of pedalingposition. what im thinking is different, is that you change your hip angle because of aerodynamic... it depends more from the length of the trunk and your mobility of your backward leg musceles. furthermore the drawing ist very good, but (sry) the shoulder (joint) is sign in the back, maybe you can correct this. I agree also that the saddle-top can be a little bit down, about one finger from level, than you get more pressure to your hands, so you need than 90 degrees in the shoulder, than it works. (I tried it for 130km) A good start for saddle height is inside-leg-length (correct?) in cm multiplied by 0,885.
Hello GCN ! I'm a fan for long time now, maybe 3-4 years, and this year, I'm finishing my degree in Physical Therapy. For my thesis, I choose a subject around posture for cyclists to prevent chronic pain. Now I'm looking for bibliography, and I went back to some years ago on you chanel. Finally the question : Do you have bibliography about the numbers you give ? about angles of the hip with the back, angle of the shoulders (2'32"), but also for the "plumb line". thank you for your attention, I hope to have a response soon Simon
Can you perhaps discuss handlebar width as well, i am told bars should be no wider than your shoulders, however, i prefer a wider bar for control and comfort.
can you go into more detail on how to adjust cleat positions or wedges even. I just can't seem to get mine right and I'm experiencing a bit of knee pain. Thanks guys love the channel.
I would be grateful to see a basic TT/Triathlon fit similar to the complexity of this. I understand that TT fits can be more complicated and should be taken to a shop, but I would like to get in the right ballpark before doing that.
Hi Bernard, thanks for the question but I'm afraid it's just impossible to answer with this amount of information. You are right that saddle height compensates for a short seat tube, but there are so many other equally important factors when choosing frame size. Have you got a good local bike shop where you can get some help?
If you want to ride more aggressive, which is faster in first place, but might contribute more to the road cyclists enemy, the common back pain, which then gives you a big disadvantage in the long run. Lance Armstrong for example rode a bigger frame size as well. It's a sport about endurance, we shouldn't forget that.
Pretty interesting video, there were a couple points in it where it skips, but nevertheless, good stuff. My one question is that for fitting yourself, most refers to one using a drop bar, what about those who use bullhorns? I know it seems silly but for me, I can lay down power on my climbs with a bullhorn, that and I ride in mostly hilly areas.
What about the microadjustment of the saddle as you speak in this video? Im really foward to hear more about that. You vids are really cool and are helping me alot to settle the best fit for my bike. Regards.
We did cover cleats to a certain extent in our "How to ride with clipless pedals" video at: /watch?v=xLHA9CzlNe4. But it's definitely something we can look at again.
Shoe Plate fit is something I am always adjusting. I can never find that sweet spot. I have tried every technique out there but its something that has stopped me cycling for some years. Now I am back riding & still having same problem. Maybe you could explain as one of your videos.
Great video guys - re future videos here's an idea / request.I've bought a frame set to build up myself, based on the manufacturer's sizing recommendations. I'm now ready to start buying components, but how do I choose what size components to buy, when I don't have the bike assembled to fit myself on?!! Specifically I need an idea of how to select crank length, handlebar geometries and stem length. Or am I stuck with guessing and trial and error, exchanging components of the wrong size?
narrow bars are quicker to respond in turning (you have to turn less to get the action that you wanted). Wider bars are more "comfortable" but that's up the individual.
A pro bike fit can beneficial but its about listening to your body and how YOU feel comfortable. In my younger days I had no spacers 130/140mm stem, dynamic fit but as I'm older things change so you can adapt to how your body listens. Once finding your perfect fit to the mm, take note and never change until you feel discomfort, this video is good in that is points out basic fit requirements that are very important in my view. Listen to your bike fitter but also listen to your own body!
hmm. bike fit changes depending on quad or glute centric pedal stroke... intriguing and never heard of it. I do believe that glute centric pedalling is better though in terms of power output and endurance.
Brilliant video. Went for a first bike ride in months on my new bike.. and my knees were painful after and my quads are now really tight and painful.. any tips?
I love your channel! I've learned so much watching your videos. I was hoping you can give me some advice: I am 5 ft 5 inches (165.1 cm) & my inseam is 34 inches (86.36 cm). When I look at bike fit charts, my height recommends a small size road bike while my inseam recommends a bigger size. I want to be comfortable when I ride, do you have any suggestions?
Second KingofHuxley, I am also 15 and I ride 250-300km a week around 160km on Sundays I was wondering if that is too much to do in a single day, also that I race crits around 15-45km, what sort of riding is best for improving my racing I am confident in a bunch but is there specific training zones to be in such as heart rate or cadence or certain distances to do, thanks, and i love the videos.
Mountain bike fit. That's all I have are mountain bikes with, I believe they're called touring stems. The whole thing, from the top of the head tube to the handlebar clamp, is 5 inches, then the handlebars themselves rise up a couple of inches, then angle back a bit. I just need some ideas to maybe tweek the adjustment some. Some rides, it seems ok, some make me believe there's something off.
Hello GCN! Can I suggest you something? If it could be possible to low down a big the music in back ground or, at least, make the voice higher? I do not understand very well, and I'm french, so I realy need to understand clearly! haha Thank you so much for all of those very good information!!!! Josiane, Qc.
I have learned on my fixed gear that when fitting your bike I found it easier to raise the saddle of a bit better, you have more stability and be able to BUST ASSSS
How does the length of the stem affect the efficiency of pedalling during climbing especially when riding off the saddle? is there an optimum stem length? What do I loose/gain by riding a larger frame with shorter stem as opposed to smaller frame with longer stem?
Longer stem puts more weight over the front wheel essentially. This aids climbing as you'll be able to keep the front wheel down. Shorter stems provide much better handling as it takes less leverage to turn the bars. It also brings your weight back. A lot of mountain bikers prefer short stems. You have to compromise between reach and control when it comes to stems. Smaller bikes are easier to throw around and control. If given the option it's always best to go with a frame that's a little smaller as it's easier to make a small bike bigger than it is to make a big bike smaller.
Stem length is illusory. Standing, you are always going to be in a dynamic balancing act to get weight over the crank center, and if you're pulling, bars will be closer or farther from your thighs but not of primary concern; standing the goal should be to stand tall, not stoop forward. Leverage also is illusory, as your hands are way out on an imaginary "steering wheel" circle around the steering axis regardless of stem. Wider bars = bigger steering wheel. Stem positions bars for optimal comfort, balance when seated for long steady rides, and should only be changed once saddle height and fore-aft position is set. The upper body counterbalances hard/strong efforts, by leaning more. Weak, tired efforts do not hold the upper body so either you sit up more, or put more weight on the hands and arms. Tipping forward by itself gives no extra power, only fatigues hands and arms needlessly.
@z1522 I agree on everything except the leverage in regard to stem. When you have longer stem, you will technically make a slightly bigger 'steering wheel' because you're further away from the center point while having the same handlebar width. Plus, it's as if you are leveraging this 'steering wheel' with both of your hands more forward, as if both hands holding a real steering wheel near the top as opposed to on each sides. So yes it will make steering feels less twitchy (due to your input but not reducing steering input from the road bumps), but not really the same effect as using a wider bar (less twitchy due to your input AND from the road bumps). When you put some weight on the handlebars, the bike will tend to 'follow your weight' more, so when you lean your weight slightly to one side lets say left, it will readily turn left. As for the short(er) stem, it will lessen this effect so when leaning you need to 'manually' turn your handlebars more. Though with no hands on the bars, they are basically the same (unless you take bar weight into consideration).
I am trying to help a new rider who gets elbow pain. The first thing I looked at were his shoulders, which appeared to be relaxed, and if he would keep a bend in his elbows (he did). He is young and fit and otherwise, never gets elbow pain
I have a 2017 Giant TCR. Recently I flipped the stem as the riding position was a bit uncomfortable for 150+ km rides (lower back pain). Initially it looked to be a good move as my speed increased around 5-6% during endurance rides. Bu now, after a couple of rides with the flipped stem I have pain on the middle of my back. What can be wrong?
What do you have to say about glute vs quad dominate technique in regards to bike fit? you say you'll cover this later, but do you have another video covering this? I don't see anything in this video
When you talk about adjusting reach it is via adjusting stem length but there is no mention about how the "reach" of the handlebars themselves affect overall reach. Should this be a concern when you opt to replace your handlebars? For example, would you need to go to a longer stem if you replace bars that had a 80mm reach with ones that have a 70?
I am 6'tall with 33" inseam and recently bought a new Trek Domane Al 2.I ended up with a 54 cm frame.It feels good and the riding position is good.Now I wonder if I got the right size.
Layback question. I'm 6ft / 33.5" inseam. I have a 19,5 frame. I'm using a setback seat post and my seat is as far back as it can go and my knees are still 2" in front of the pedal spindle. Does this mean my frame is too small or wrong frame geometry all together?
I got a traditional round bar, may stem is around 80mm. Im having trouble using the drops and the hoods. Should I change my handle bar to a compact bar for shorter reach?
Is the longer stem sometimes to compensate for top tube not putting you in proper position? I'm noticing quite few compact frames with longer stems and the seat set way back. Thanks for the bike fitting info
Great vid, will be going away and refining position. Recently bought road bike after having a flat bar and after 30 mins of riding on hoods getting pins and needles in fingers. Is this common, do you have any suggestions during set up?
I'm no pro and I'm relatively new to road biking but one thing I did that helped is use more of my core to keep my body in position shoulders somewhat relaxed rather than putting too much of the work on my shoulders/arms on my handlebars and creating a more slouched position, hope this makes sense!!
Hi there, we can tackle this one quite quickly actually. Saddles should always be flat, never up, and in certain cases slightly down. That said, for pros, the UCI actually stipulates that saddles must be level, so they don't even get a choice. If the seat is slightly up, it can put pressure where you really don't want it, and if it is slightly down, it can put more weight through your arms and hands, causing problems elsewhere.
Hope that helps!
Global Cycling Network Why should the UCI get to decide rider comfort and choice of saddle tilt angle? This is personal to an individual. I don't see how or why the UCI should have any say.
@@Sionnach1601 It is not the case anymore.
Hi! We've got more videos coming up on bike fit. In the meantime you could head to your local bike shop - they'll be able to advise on what size components will suit you.
very helpful as usual GCN - finding the right fit on your own takes a lot of tinkering. i've had my newest road bike for just over a year now and only in the past 3 weeks have i found what i think is close to the right fit - that came by adjusting the saddle height 30mm UP and rotating the bars AWAY - i'm now much more comfortable but it kind of went against my instinct, to make my position more aggressive to be more comforatble didn't make sense but it worked! :-)
Great, simple video. I don't even know what to do anymore. I am in Los Angeles and two bike fits later, I am more frustrated than ever. My first bike fitter suggested putting an almost comical amount of lifts on my cleats. This actually caused an injury. The same fitter suggested a bike that is too small for me. My gut told me that both recommendations were wrong. But, "he is the pro," I told myself. I am now on my second bike fit. Now, this guy is considered "the" bike fitter in Orange County (CA). He made some great adjustments, except for the reach. I had just got used to my previous fit. Not sure why he decided to change to a longer stem. Now, I feel like I am reaching too much. What is worst is that that I now have a lot of pressure on my crotch area. My first fit was $450 and my second is $300. That is an insane amount of money for such average results at best. By the way, every bike fitter will tell you the same story: That your previous fit is wrong and that they know better. Super frustrated.
Dang
Would love to see some more videos on saddle and bar adjustments for hybrid straight bar bikes. Also some examples like if you are having pain near back or shoulders what could be wrong type of suggestions.
The position will be fairly different, especially at the front of the bike, with higher bars and a shorter stem. Saddle height won't be too different although you may find it helps to have a little lower than you would on the road. Hope that helps!
Thank you for this short explanation! It was thorough and explained things better than in any other video. You explained the why of wanting the reach longer or shorter or why the layback should be longer or shorter. That helped me to understand everything. Thank you.
I have been riding my road bike for more than ten years now and have finally gotten serious about adjusting it to fit me. The video is good as it outlines the fundamental steps in order: saddle height, saddle fore-aft and reach. I have been adjusting saddle fore-aft and have found that having the saddle further aft makes my riding dramatically more powerful and comfortable. I'm more powerful because I am leaning over more and that makes me use my core muscles more and I'm more comfortable because in this position more of my weight is on my seat and pedals, where it should be, and not on my hands.
It is not immediately obvious that moving the saddle aft will take weight off your hands but it does. As far as I am concerned this is a crucial result of the adjustment. I checked casually for my knee over pedal position and figure my knee is aft of the pedal spindle but I'm sure it doesn't matter. Knee over pedal is just a guideline.
Also whenever you move your saddle forward or back, it will change your knee angle at the bottom of the pedal stroke. So re-check your knee angles whenever you move your saddle forward or back. Generally move your saddle forward & up, and backwards & down. And the bottom of the pedal stroke isn't necessarily at the 6 o'clock position, it's basically when your leg is at it's straightest point; that point is usually between the 5 and 6 o'clock position.
Seven Years later and found this gem
Great tips
The theory goes that the more aero your position, the more you have to tilt your pelvis forward to maintain a good pedalling position. This means that as you've noticed, a rider will need to bring their saddle forward to compensate, much as they would on a TT bike. The best idea is to go with what works for you, and ignore the trends.
Hey, GCN. I'm a 15 year old cyclist and I try to ride 50-100kms every week. Can you guys please do a video on how to become a stronger cyclist for those who are starting out? Is it better to do shorter, high intensity work-outs on the trainer, or is it better to get out and go on longer rides? Cheers.
Hi .im a 12 years old cyclist and i ride at least 75 km a week is there any way i can get stronger
Hi I'm a 3 month old fetus, and I've been riding for 4 months, but seem to have plateoed. I ride 125km every week, can you make a video on how to get stronger? Cheers
Hi, I haven't been born yet but I'm cycling now for about a week, how to get stronger ?
@@cityler2you’ll learn how to spell plateau in like 6th - 7th grade 😆✌🏼
@@tyleraltom6026 fs, wasn't even close
You're right that KOPS doesn't take into account your torso etc, but that is precisely why it is so effective. It sets your saddle for optimum pedalling efficiency, and then adjusting reach and height is what takes into account torso length and flexibility.
EFFECTIVE TOP TUBE LENGTH...EFFECTIVE TOP TUBE LENGTH....EFFECTIVE TOP TUBE LENGTH....that is THE PRIMARY consideration in selecting a frame size and then adjusting the nuances of a shorter/longer stem, moving saddle forward/backward, adjusting crank length and cleat placement.
But almost no one recognizes effective top tube length as the primary consideration for fit. And because of that reason bicycle fitting is a "voo-doo" practice of almost hit or miss.
Sheldon Brown explains this VERY well.
Nice to finally find someone who shares this thought :)
Auckland Bike Fit Leave it to The Kiwis to understand bike fit!.
I bought so many wrong sized bikes over the years at the behest of bike shop employees.
I'm 6 feet tall. Every time I walk into a bike shop people say "Oh, you're 6 feet...you'd ride a 56cm."
But I have a short torso and long legs. These are typically more female dimensions.
Ive found heaven on a ETT of 54cm....maybe it's 54.5.
But the 2cm shorter than my other "normal sized" bike make the former: HEAVEN TO RIDE
I'm not now adjusting my saddle back and forth and my handlebars to and fro...I just feel: COMFORTABLE.
Tom Boonen is 6'3"-4" and he rides a 54cm bike with a 150-160mm stem!. But it's the length not height that's important.
michael allen how do you know what top tube length you would be, then?
michael allen I'm the same.. 6' and bought the giant TCR in a M/L frame but I over stretch far too much.. I've changed the stem from 110 to 70 which makes a huge difference but also had to move seat forward a long way... Wish I had bought the medium frame and not looked at the official sizing guides...
Wrong. Effective top tube fails to account for seat tube angle, and head tube angle along with stack, which determine whether even with the proper saddle height and setback you will be able to set bars correctly relative to the saddle. Reach is the key measure that ignores frame particulars and looks at the key distance from bottom bracket to top of headtube. Steep or shallow seat tube angles can make a top tube +/- 50mm but a rider can end up sitting exactly in the same spot by using different seatposts and setbacks. Reach and stack dictate the limitations available to change the front half of the cockpit; stems on road bikes rarely go shorter than 6cm, and extra-high spacing to raise bars is limited as well. If one already has a bike that fits, measuring reach and stack can quickly show if another bike is going to be viable without trying to calculate from frame dimensions.
Yeah, absolutely. Bear in mind though that aerodynamics are not really important at all in mountain biking so when setting up the reach to the bars, it is all about control.
When riding up a hill in the saddle, try to feel what muscles you are using. It might help to pedal at a lower cadence. The other way, is to see if you are pushing back in the saddle when riding (glutes) or shifting forward (quads).
Thanks for the suggestion! We'll have to take a look at aero bars.
You are hot. You have huge balls :P
Id like to see vids on how bikefit differs according to discipline, road vs cross vs MTB. Also it would be great to get one on frame geometry and how it affects handling etc. Cheers!
You look so... young! Thankfully, this great, short tutorial offers timeless, practical advice. Much appreciated as I dial in my new gravel bike (Obed Boundary). And don't worry, Si, you're still way younger and faster than me!
Most pro's have a fixed saddle position and then leave it. They get very fussy about moving it as your muscles get used to a certain position. If it's in the right place, then we recommend leaving it.
That's a brilliant, succinct summary of the adjustments needed. There seems to be another basic issue, which is the frame size? What are the issues there please? Plus, I'm looking for a more upright comfort ride rather than performance. When I scroll through pages of hybrid bikes I'm pretty much only seeing handlebar setups that require leaning forward, and I don't want to be putting that kind of pressure on my wrists any more. I think you're going to say the answer is go to a good bike shop, but I just thought I'd float the question.
Hi Carlos, probably your best bet is to go to a bike shop and see about getting your riding position analysed - you can spend a long time trying to find the right thing to sort out your position, but a professinoal bike fit will really help.
I definitely think it should be stressed that these are tips to give you a general starting point, but that you should not be afraid to experiment and find what works best for you. Just because the guy at the bike shop says it's right, doesn't mean it is. The by-the-book KOPS setup is dreadful for some riders. I found that I always had way too much weight on my hands, and always felt I was sliding forward off my seat. Moving the seat back a bit increased my power significantly, and made riding way more comfortable in general. Also, as I ride in the drops 90% of the time, a shorter more angled stem puts them at a better position, when I want a super-aero tuck, I just bend my elbows a bit more.
If you're an average height light-weight cyclist, on a mid size frame, These tips will probably be quite close, but if you're really tall/short/heavy, etc. you'll probably find that your ideal setup could be quite different.
How does your setup change if you're heavy?
Arahorn all local takeaways programmed into the gps
Andrew
What if I don't have a gps, how can I still find the takeaways? Or should I really save up for one?
We will go into this in the future, definitely. Thanks for the suggestion.
Great video! I have an advanced video idea for tt bikes. What about if/ then style with options like... shoulder pain try this, under power moving off the front of the saddle try that, height adjustments of saddle for sitting up vs in aero position, plumline during aero vs. standard reach for sitting upright, too much use of hamstrings try this.
Simple and concise presentation.Stems can be found cheap.I replaced my 120mm stem with a 70mm and paid less than $8.
I thought my saddle was spot on and then today I shifted it back and down just a couple of mm and the difference was noticeable. Bit less weight on my wrists, cornering was better, descending was better, saddle more comfortable. My legs still hurt for the last 10km (of 104), but in a different, much more manageable way.
Well done Simon I am one of those guilty of moving their saddle to get a good bar to saddle reach so your advice on altering my stem reach once I had achieved a good KOPS was welcomed. Although Peter White questions the validity of the KOPS method.
+Ted Edwards None other than Keith Bontrager too questions the KOPS. Look up Sheldon Brown's web page on this-very interesting read for cyclists
Very old school method with no REAL science behind it. I stopped using this back in the mid 2000's. Fitting should be more individual, KOPS tends to put many people to far back on the seat, locking out the hip flexor and stretching all the muscles throughout the back of the body.
Ted Edwards KOPS method doesn't work for me unless im riding a bike with a frame that is undersized for me. im 6'1" and generally ride a 57 (tt) and a 59 (road ). My seat is is more like knee over toes! lol... this feels good for me. Everyone has a different set up. My stem on the 59 bike is 90mm..
I can ride for hours with no issues
The key is to have a goal. You have to set a goal by selecting a specific date you aim towards. Its also important to identify the type of goal so you can train accordingly, your not going to perform well in an short intense effort with only long base miles in the legs however you would still be able to do good in a longer event with only intensity training but your endurance would be lacking. The best is to balance intensity out. REST is VERY important to adaptation of your training!!!
What about heel in / heel out? This would help to ensure there is no unnecessary knee-rotation. Cleat adjustment? Thanks guys! Keep up the awesome work! (Cool jersey, by the way!)
(sry for my bad englisch) the follow of adjustings is correct, also that the sattle position ist fix because of pedalingposition. what im thinking is different, is that you change your hip angle because of aerodynamic... it depends more from the length of the trunk and your mobility of your backward leg musceles.
furthermore the drawing ist very good, but (sry) the shoulder (joint) is sign in the back, maybe you can correct this.
I agree also that the saddle-top can be a little bit down, about one finger from level, than you get more pressure to your hands, so you need than 90 degrees in the shoulder, than it works. (I tried it for 130km)
A good start for saddle height is inside-leg-length (correct?) in cm multiplied by 0,885.
Hello GCN !
I'm a fan for long time now, maybe 3-4 years, and this year, I'm finishing my degree in Physical Therapy. For my thesis, I choose a subject around posture for cyclists to prevent chronic pain. Now I'm looking for bibliography, and I went back to some years ago on you chanel.
Finally the question : Do you have bibliography about the numbers you give ? about angles of the hip with the back, angle of the shoulders (2'32"), but also for the "plumb line".
thank you for your attention, I hope to have a response soon
Simon
Awesome Clip GCN, best basic bike fit I've seen and I'll now be using this to make any small changes that are need. Thanks!
Can you perhaps discuss handlebar width as well, i am told bars should be no wider than your shoulders, however, i prefer a wider bar for control and comfort.
Sure, we can look into a video for that. Very briefly though, the right way is the comfortable way. If it doesn't feel right, it probably isn't.
Incredible to see how much technology has changed since this video was produced, 😮
can you go into more detail on how to adjust cleat positions or wedges even. I just can't seem to get mine right and I'm experiencing a bit of knee pain. Thanks guys love the channel.
I would be grateful to see a basic TT/Triathlon fit similar to the complexity of this. I understand that TT fits can be more complicated and should be taken to a shop, but I would like to get in the right ballpark before doing that.
Great explanation . As you said the bike fit is a more complex topic but was well explained so far .
Hi Bernard, thanks for the question but I'm afraid it's just impossible to answer with this amount of information. You are right that saddle height compensates for a short seat tube, but there are so many other equally important factors when choosing frame size. Have you got a good local bike shop where you can get some help?
would be nice if you cover the top tube length as well
No the guidelines are broad enough to encompass both men and women. Cheers
Video idea: Riding a larger frame or smaller for your size. Positives and negatives.
+Jamel Hamdan I tried a bigger one and could barely control the bike.
+Jamel Hamdan Simple: if you're between sizes, go with the smaller one.
If you want to ride more aggressive, which is faster in first place, but might contribute more to the road cyclists enemy, the common back pain, which then gives you a big disadvantage in the long run. Lance Armstrong for example rode a bigger frame size as well.
It's a sport about endurance, we shouldn't forget that.
period.
Jamel Hamdan Sia uses a smaller size. "M" likely but he should use a large but he's not competing and wants comfort.
also after spending the money remember to use tipex/whiteout or similar to mark the positions just incase something slips.
Pretty interesting video, there were a couple points in it where it skips, but nevertheless, good stuff. My one question is that for fitting yourself, most refers to one using a drop bar, what about those who use bullhorns? I know it seems silly but for me, I can lay down power on my climbs with a bullhorn, that and I ride in mostly hilly areas.
What about the microadjustment of the saddle as you speak in this video? Im really foward to hear more about that. You vids are really cool and are helping me alot to settle the best fit for my bike. Regards.
Appreciate the swift response. Your videos are excellent.
We did cover cleats to a certain extent in our "How to ride with clipless pedals" video at: /watch?v=xLHA9CzlNe4. But it's definitely something we can look at again.
Can you tackle common fit issues? Issues that you'd run into with too short or long of reach, potential power loss or gain with setback position, etc
The advantages of turning your handlebar stem upside down? I think Ryder Hesjedal and i think i've seen GCN's Dan Lloyd doing this aswell.
Shoe Plate fit is something I am always adjusting. I can never find that sweet spot. I have tried every technique out there but its something that has stopped me cycling for some years. Now I am back riding & still having same problem.
Maybe you could explain as one of your videos.
Great video guys - re future videos here's an idea / request.I've bought a frame set to build up myself, based on the manufacturer's sizing recommendations. I'm now ready to start buying components, but how do I choose what size components to buy, when I don't have the bike assembled to fit myself on?!!
Specifically I need an idea of how to select crank length, handlebar geometries and stem length.
Or am I stuck with guessing and trial and error, exchanging components of the wrong size?
It's impossible to say succinctly, but we wouldn't recommend getting a size too small no.
narrow bars are quicker to respond in turning (you have to turn less to get the action that you wanted). Wider bars are more "comfortable" but that's up the individual.
A pro bike fit can beneficial but its about listening to your body and how YOU feel comfortable. In my younger days I had no spacers 130/140mm stem, dynamic fit but as I'm older things change so you can adapt to how your body listens. Once finding your perfect fit to the mm, take note and never change until you feel discomfort, this video is good in that is points out basic fit requirements that are very important in my view. Listen to your bike fitter but also listen to your own body!
The traditional "drop a plumb" method actually measures from the bump below the knee (the tibial tuberosity) and not the kneecap.
hmm. bike fit changes depending on quad or glute centric pedal stroke... intriguing and never heard of it. I do believe that glute centric pedalling is better though in terms of power output and endurance.
OMG I love this channel, are you guys by any chance going to make one for mountain biking (cross country) bike fit?
What about a video about the best saddle? Esp Fizik... Snake, bull etc...
Seconded. A video on cleat setup would be great, it's part of setting up my position I have the most trouble with.
Really enjoying the videos. cheers
Hi, can you do a video on the bike fit for an MTB as well? This video was really useful.
Great video mate!! You gave me all the information I needed to know in less than 4 minutes....lol
Brilliant video. Went for a first bike ride in months on my new bike.. and my knees were painful after and my quads are now really tight and painful.. any tips?
Do you guys have a video about fitting a Time Trial bike?
Where do you cover fore/aft saddle position with regards to whether you generate power predominantly from your quads or glutes?Thanks
I love your channel! I've learned so much watching your videos. I was hoping you can give me some advice: I am 5 ft 5 inches (165.1 cm) & my inseam is 34 inches (86.36 cm). When I look at bike fit charts, my height recommends a small size road bike while my inseam recommends a bigger size. I want to be comfortable when I ride, do you have any suggestions?
Second KingofHuxley, I am also 15 and I ride 250-300km a week around 160km on Sundays I was wondering if that is too much to do in a single day, also that I race crits around 15-45km, what sort of riding is best for improving my racing I am confident in a bunch but is there specific training zones to be in such as heart rate or cadence or certain distances to do, thanks, and i love the videos.
Mountain bike fit. That's all I have are mountain bikes with, I believe they're called touring stems. The whole thing, from the top of the head tube to the handlebar clamp, is 5 inches, then the handlebars themselves rise up a couple of inches, then angle back a bit. I just need some ideas to maybe tweek the adjustment some. Some rides, it seems ok, some make me believe there's something off.
High or low
When you degrease the chain, should it be completely devoid of grease before lubing it again? Also, how often should one clean their bike?
Hello GCN!
Can I suggest you something? If it could be possible to low down a big the music in back ground or, at least, make the voice higher? I do not understand very well, and I'm french, so I realy need to understand clearly! haha
Thank you so much for all of those very good information!!!!
Josiane, Qc.
Please can you talk about cleat position. And perhaps shoes and insoles.
Nothing is better than paying for a pro-bike fit. No amount of youtube videos will really get things perfect.
I have a touring bike with straight bars. What is the best way of checking the stem length and position with this configuration?
How do you discern whether you pedal predominantly with the glutes or the quads?
I have learned on my fixed gear that when fitting your bike I found it easier to raise the saddle of a bit better, you have more stability and be able to BUST ASSSS
Global Cycling Network Do you have any tips on shoe fit and cleat adjustment?
We do, have a look at this: How To Set Up Cleats For Clipless Pedals
I would like To know how To choose The right frame size....
Pretty please :D
Excersice suggestions for the beginners
How does the length of the stem affect the efficiency of pedalling during climbing especially when riding off the saddle? is there an optimum stem length? What do I loose/gain by riding a larger frame with shorter stem as opposed to smaller frame with longer stem?
Longer stem puts more weight over the front wheel essentially. This aids climbing as you'll be able to keep the front wheel down.
Shorter stems provide much better handling as it takes less leverage to turn the bars. It also brings your weight back. A lot of mountain bikers prefer short stems.
You have to compromise between reach and control when it comes to stems.
Smaller bikes are easier to throw around and control. If given the option it's always best to go with a frame that's a little smaller as it's easier to make a small bike bigger than it is to make a big bike smaller.
Stem length is illusory. Standing, you are always going to be in a dynamic balancing act to get weight over the crank center, and if you're pulling, bars will be closer or farther from your thighs but not of primary concern; standing the goal should be to stand tall, not stoop forward. Leverage also is illusory, as your hands are way out on an imaginary "steering wheel" circle around the steering axis regardless of stem. Wider bars = bigger steering wheel. Stem positions bars for optimal comfort, balance when seated for long steady rides, and should only be changed once saddle height and fore-aft position is set. The upper body counterbalances hard/strong efforts, by leaning more. Weak, tired efforts do not hold the upper body so either you sit up more, or put more weight on the hands and arms. Tipping forward by itself gives no extra power, only fatigues hands and arms needlessly.
@z1522 I agree on everything except the leverage in regard to stem. When you have longer stem, you will technically make a slightly bigger 'steering wheel' because you're further away from the center point while having the same handlebar width. Plus, it's as if you are leveraging this 'steering wheel' with both of your hands more forward, as if both hands holding a real steering wheel near the top as opposed to on each sides.
So yes it will make steering feels less twitchy (due to your input but not reducing steering input from the road bumps), but not really the same effect as using a wider bar (less twitchy due to your input AND from the road bumps).
When you put some weight on the handlebars, the bike will tend to 'follow your weight' more, so when you lean your weight slightly to one side lets say left, it will readily turn left. As for the short(er) stem, it will lessen this effect so when leaning you need to 'manually' turn your handlebars more.
Though with no hands on the bars, they are basically the same (unless you take bar weight into consideration).
I am trying to help a new rider who gets elbow pain. The first thing I looked at were his shoulders, which appeared to be relaxed, and if he would keep a bend in his elbows (he did). He is young and fit and otherwise, never gets elbow pain
Could yo make a video on bike posture using straight handle bars?
Any chance on making a video about aerobar fitting?
I have a 2017 Giant TCR. Recently I flipped the stem as the riding position was a bit uncomfortable for 150+ km rides (lower back pain). Initially it looked to be a good move as my speed increased around 5-6% during endurance rides. Bu now, after a couple of rides with the flipped stem I have pain on the middle of my back. What can be wrong?
What do you have to say about glute vs quad dominate technique in regards to bike fit? you say you'll cover this later, but do you have another video covering this? I don't see anything in this video
do a video for saddle position for people who use their gluts more vs people who use their hamstrings more
Do a video on crank arm length please.
Something on saddle angle/tilt would be nice.
Great video, how similar would you say the bike fit is for XC mountain biking?
When you talk about adjusting reach it is via adjusting stem length but there is no mention about how the "reach" of the handlebars themselves affect overall reach. Should this be a concern when you opt to replace your handlebars? For example, would you need to go to a longer stem if you replace bars that had a 80mm reach with ones that have a 70?
So True, this is generally overlooked as people mainly measure seat to stem and forget about the huge variable in the handlebar reach
I am 6'tall with 33" inseam and recently bought a new Trek Domane Al 2.I ended up with a 54 cm frame.It feels good and the riding position is good.Now I wonder if I got the right size.
Do you have any advice for bike set-up for someone coming off of patellofemoral knee pain?
Layback question.
I'm 6ft / 33.5" inseam. I have a 19,5 frame. I'm using a setback seat post and my seat is as far back as it can go and my knees are still 2" in front of the pedal spindle.
Does this mean my frame is too small or wrong frame geometry all together?
Could we please get a guide on wheels in the future?
Setting up cleats would be nice, they are always pretty hard to get in the right position. And it hurts like hell when they're not set up right..
What adjustment would address pain along the back of the legs behind the knees?
I got a traditional round bar, may stem is around 80mm. Im having trouble using the drops and the hoods. Should I change my handle bar to a compact bar for shorter reach?
Is the longer stem sometimes to compensate for top tube not putting you in proper position? I'm noticing quite few compact frames with longer stems and the seat set way back. Thanks for the bike fitting info
Cameron Smith It might be that you need a shorter seat tube but have long arms. Very rare that an off the shelf frame will be a perfect fit.
what about fitting for TT Bikes? I never seem to find the position where I can be confortable and achieve best performance at the same time
Great vid, will be going away and refining position. Recently bought road bike after having a flat bar and after 30 mins of riding on hoods getting pins and needles in fingers. Is this common, do you have any suggestions during set up?