This is the first video I've watched of yours and I thought it was excellent. Very interesting and tragic at the same time. You've gained a new subscriber, keep up the good work 🙂🙂
@@LeahDyson-kq4bd there wasn’t much in the form of contraception in those days, not like today where you have a choice pill,condoms,the coil or the injection, large families were also the norm for many people xx
Unfair. I know from having four a good part of raising them is herd care. There aren’t enough hours in the day to raise a group with the tendency to schizophrenia and another group without. It wasn’t like the three oldest had it.
They say trauma ‘’loads the weapon’’ of predisposed mental illness. My only brother (with 5 sisters) developed schizophrenia around age 20. He was highly intelligent, talented, funny, and creative. It’s absolutely heart-wrenching to witness a loved one lose their mind.. their grip on reality
@@maureenbuck4795 every kind of molestation. But...how well parents try do do 'good', thay will allways! fail. Not because they really mess things up (many do actually), but because the child misunderstands their words, their actions, etc.. Starts thinking and worrying, keeps a distance and things start to take a bad turn and an even badder outcome. For all involved. So....TALK and keep talking, explaining yourself, open, without restrictions. And LISTEN...to the words, the gestures made, the mimics, the actions. And allways keep at least a window open. A look-out...
@annemaria5126 I think the issues are deeper than a simple misunderstanding. This concept expects human beings to be mind readers. When a child knows the parent will protect them and listen to them, that, in itself, is a divine gift.
@@annemaria5126the children look up to the parents and don’t expect them to fail because they’re the ones that are teaching them the lessons of life. But because the parents are not perfect, they’re absolutely gonna fail and the children don’t understand how to take that. It’s like the parents are still learning themselves. They’ve never been parents before so they learn as they go. It’s not like any parent has had the opportunity to test their parenting skills before they have children. I know if I could do it all over again, I’d definitely do things totally different than I did. And I don’t think that schizophrenia comes from the ways of parenting but yet comes from genetics. Although I do see some tendencies that can make it worse for a schizophrenia person that comes from the parents. I myself suffer from mental illness such as depression and anxiety which have stemmed from not being the person that my mother wants me to be and no matter how hard I try to fight it, it doesn’t just go away. I am a people pleaser and when I get overwhelmed bc I can’t please everyone around me, I fall into a deep state of depression and my anxiety is through the roof. With it also comes anger and I’ve never had anger issues. But the older I get, the worse it gets. I feel like if I’m blessed to live, that I’ll more than likely develop dementia.
Perhaps, having suffered, from a severe case, of P.T.S.D., after several close calls, as a secret agent (OSS?), during WWII? Spent the rest of his life, living, in a family of spies, even if they didn't know why. And so, NAMES were too dangerous, numbers were safe enough.
totally! and many ppl want to blame the mother! with Schizophrenia, i don’t believe it’s cause is by how they’re raised but maybe the way it’s managed or dealt with that may help
@@ericrivera8410 Empathy. I was tricked into taking olanzepine. I'm stuck on it now. The witdrawls are terrifying. I'm so fckng angry when I think about it.
No, not the most disturbed family in America. These poor parents. Especially the Mother at home parenting by herself most of the time and being BLAMED for the disease in her sons by psychiatrists of the 1960's who thought her parenting style CAUSED Schizophrenia! Thank goodness we know a little more about this mental illness today.
I mostly agree with you. Though I do blame the parents for turning a blind eye to the physical and sexual abuse some of the brothers inflicted on their siblings. That was wrong.
Violence within families is more prevalent than most people want to admit ! If you were born into a normal family you are truly Blessed ! For all Victims, I pray for you everyday !
@@BlackRhetoric I am grateful you didn't grew up with it too ! I grew up with rampant and sometimes truly terrifying abuse. My siblings continued it in our adulthood until I went No Contact !. It took me many years to be grateful for it in part. I have to believe it was meant to be because what spung out of that was the knowledge that all you need is God and He is Everything !. Thus abuse, in part became a Blessing ! When you learn that all else falls into place ! God Bless ! ✝️🌿
Mental health was considered a taboo topic at the time these kids were forced to adjust to it. Mental illness was considered something to be ashamed of, so it was hidden, rather than treated. It's such a sad way to live.
My heart goes out to all families that suffer mental illness. Most of my life has been devoted to trying to help my Mother and my Sister. I've been in therapy more than half of my life and at 72 remain there. My maternal great grandmother may have marked the beginnings of this disease. I pray for an angel at bedtime to look after my 63 y/o sister out there in the world. I received word via phone call yesterday from a motorist that she had stopped on major bridge when she saw my Sister slumped over the bridge crossing the Mississippi river. There is nothing more l can do but pray. I'm exhausted from decades of this. I now am in a stage 4 disease and am lost about what to do say or think about all of this. I have taken up her funeral plan along with mine. I feel it's all l can do to help now. I'm writing to let all know just how serious mental illness is. It's a lifetime of dealing with pain and living with uncertainty usually daily. Please pray for my Sister to somehow and someway to overcome. It's become enough for me to be able to sleep at night.
Mom was paranoid schizophrenia. She was also self medicating with valium and alcohol early on in my Sisters life and in my early high school years. Also our Dad was an alcoholic. Our Mom was very physically and verbally abusive. As a senior in HS l had to go before a judge have a lunacy sworn out to have her picked up for observation. She held us at gunpoint behind our locked door for 2 days. My sister has been a drug addict beginning in her early teens. Sorry to unload this much info, but believe me, l needed to release this and free my soul if only for awhile.
Bless you. Mental health issues are so very difficult for us to try to understand. Keep doing what you can for yourself and stay engaged with life. I’m 73. My oldest son was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia when he was in his 30’s. He was 42 when he died of an infection that went to his brain. In his state of mind, he did not seek medical treatment for a spinal wound because he thought everyone was an enemy and wanted to hurt him. My heart hurts for him and I miss him every day.He has been gone for 6 years today, July 28. I pray for everyone who is experiencing any sort of mental health issue. I always remember the good person that my son was and how much he didn’t want me to worry about him. I hope you have some good memories too.
@@Stitcher_in_MD I will pray for your peace to return to you.He is gone and not in pain any longer. It is the people left that will remain scattered until they no longer are. Do you have a family history of this and do have have an idea where it started
My dear friends and one time landlords who were two of the kindest, intelligent humans I have ever met had 4 children who were all paranoid schizophrenics. They were all diagnosed at varying ages in their adulthood. The parents bought a multi home property where all their kids (and parents) had their own private homes. I became a tenant when the eldest son got successfully treated and married. I lived there for 15 years and witnessed the horrible toll the illness took on the whole family! I also witnessed the most incredible love these parents had for their kids! Parents finally passed in their 70’s, property was sold…. I wonder often where they are and how they’re doing
And this is why huge families are not a positive thing. No one can give proper attention to constant new babies while still caring for toddlers and preschoolers.
Not totally true. My grandma had several kids, my dad the third from the last and for the most part they were all fairly well balanced. Well maybe not perfect, but none of them ever did anything disturbing. Some might have party a bit to hard when younger but that was the extent of their mischief
@@deborahallenbaugh2110mental illness and behavioural issues are far more likely in large families particularly when they breed their own if you know what I mean ,parents just pretty much leave them to it as well.
That's a ridiculous statement regarding large families. I know far too many of them that did not have this problem, while knowing far too many "small" families that do. Good mothers and fathers are able to multitask.
Schizophrenia is often diagnosed too late to keep it from passing on to another generation. My friend's two sons decided not to marry or have kids due to their father's schizophrenia, and one of them ended up committing suicide in his 50's, after suffering from the disease.
I agree. My family has a long history of mental illness in the form of depression and anxiety. I wasn’t diagnosed till my early forties which made a huge difference in my life and my children’s mental health. I wish my mother had gotten help in her lifetime.
@@Maariu01 it can skip a generation. My ex's mother had it and so did her brother. None of her kids do far have shown it. Borderline and an undiagnosed son she did have.
I’m wondering how much of their psychological issues weren’t brought on by the father. I will say that children learn what was normal in their own private homes. My own family suffer from depression and anxiety, from grandparents, parents, children and grandchildren. It’s a vicious cycle but myself and my own children are able to recognize and be proactive in our own mental health. You can’t break the chain but you can be educated and seek help. It has made a huge difference in myself and my children.
Rather than brought on by their father, I would think inherited from their father. And fostered by useless mental health care system that is only mildly improved since the time this family struggled with this.
Some of it could have been environment, but mental illnesses like schizophrenia are passed down through genes and it usually skips a generation. My thought is that one of the parents have mental illness in their familial history, or something the father encountered during the war was passed down to his children. Either way, I'm interested in the parents' family mental health history.
You should read their story, Hidden Valley Road. It is very well written!! It must have been so difficult having so many of your children diagnosed with such an invasive mental disease!!
I appreciate the recommendation. I do not, however, believe they were all schizophrenic. They were SA’d by a pervert early in life, which I believe can change children physically, not just mentally. It may also have been a “perfect storm” of factors. But, the effects of sustained child abuse is grossly underestimated, mostly for legal/financial reasons as we see with the Catholic Church.
@@MsMarple That's interesting. I don't remember a pervert in the book, but it's typical for me to forget things like that. SA would explain a lot. My clearest memory is what they did to birds of prey to "train" them.
It’s not the responsibility of older children to care for younger ones it’s the responsibility the mother and father who made them. Practice birth control if you don’t want to take care of your children.
Please note: Schizophrenic individuals are NOT typically violent or sex offenders. Paranoia and depression are not always characteristic of schizophrenia. Genetics and environmental trauma contribute to this condition. Inheritance of specific genes may or may not lead to schizophrenia - depending on one's circumstances ,it may or may not be exhibited and to varying degrees.
Please note: schizophrenic people are WAY more prone to violence and being sex offenders. My mother was schophrenic. Don't tell us what they don't do. We KNOW what they do. We have lived it.
I grew up at the Air Force Academy and my parents were very close friends of the Galvins! I remember going to their house many times as a child. Our family moved to Denver when my dad retired from the Air Force . This was before I knew anything about the boys’ illness’s. After we moved to Denver, my mom would tell me only snippets of things happening to the Galvins.! When the book came out about the Galvins, I read it, and my heart was so saddened by the lives of the family members!
What a beautiful looking family. Never judge till you take a walk in their shoes.No one knows what goes on behind closed doors.That mother did the very best she could. In the times that were in it. What a cross to bear .God bless them all.
Right, not even close. With the turpins, Gabriel Fernandez family, Shanda Vander ark & Paul Ferguson, ruby franke, etc etc etc. Those are disturbed families. These are people suffering from (for at least one, treatment resistant) mental illness.
Back then, thanks to Freud and his cohorts the parents, especially the mother was blamed for pretty much all the behavior problems. Parents of autistic children also were blamed for their issues. NOW we know it is an organic disease. It is also likely genetic. Genetics aren't always direct and can skip a generation or two. I have seen two teens from a neighbors go from being a regular teen and descend into schizophrenia. One was a child raised by his normal grandmother but was the product of 2 schizophrenics in a mental unit who had sex and his mother got pregnant. He was VERY deeply disturbed. we watched him slowly be overcome by his illness, helped him seek counseling and medications because his grandmother died, and his uncle took advantage and ripped off his inheritance, , but he as many do for at least a while kept stopping. He became violent and we had to stop contact with him after he was institutionalized and he told them he lived with us which he did not.. With granddaughter in the house and he having tried to kidnap and molest a child (something he NEVER would have done before) we didn't allow him to contact us- especially after he tried to get discharged here. Another was a young woman- she never got violent that we know of, but she hallucinated and to this day refuses to take her medications and refuses to recognize her illness despite numerous long hospitalizations. Her son is not afflicted with this fortunately, is married and doing very well despite CPS intermittently removing him and reuniting them. She lost all custody of her daughter. As a nurse we occasionally get schizophrenic patients with medical problems and the medications they use now are SO MUCH BETTER than the old psychotropics like thorazine and Haldol. Those are used more for violent breaks and rarely for severe cases. Knowing it's organic is helpful too. Vitamins are also helpful to a point if there is a deficit. One man diagnosed with dementia really had a B-12 deficiency and cleared up after it was replaced. HOWEVER- his wife of 20+ years turned into a bit of a Black Widow and whom he trusted to manage the medications and VA appointments stopped giving it to him and he ended up incapacitated. I found out about it and called the VA with my concerns and they too had been concerned and they were going to get APS involved and possibly get her out of the picture. There's also drug induced psychosis from drugs like meth- and there can be a point of no return.
My dad called my son "7" because he was the 7th grandchild. My husband was furious, but i was so desensitised to my dad's apathy that i couldn't understand why he was upset. @2:05
@@Lydweena The whole family is fractured honestly. My parents are extreme religious fanatics; I simply dropped contact. I feel sorry for my son, who probably feels somewhat "alone in the world" in some ways, but thankfully he doesn't remember my parents.
It’s seems that these parents were mostly absent for their roles as parents. They were irresponsible to have children that they could not nurture. So sad for the kids.
“These parents”? They’d be deceased if the mother was absent. The father was a horrible non-father and non-husband. Don’t blame the mother who was left alone to deal with deranged grown males.
Some of my great aunts had schizophrenia caused by having scarlet fever as children. The very high fever can cause brain damage which may result in mental illness.
God bless them all. So devastating. I have known of three who struggled with this disease. Thank God science & medical knowledge has improved greatly. No one understands how lonely and tortured they feel. 😢😢😢
I can speak on this, my mother had schizophrenia & it didn't help that she was running from bombs in WWII Germany. There are many levels of schizophrenia & the one that's the toughest is child schizophrenia, genetic, environmental & that's the one we think my mother had. Her head splintered during the horrors of war. It was hard living with someone who was diagnosed with the disease, it is no & I mean no walk in the park. I even begin to imagine what it was like in that household, you never know when the bomb is going to drop & all hell is going to break loose.
My friend was one of 10, just the two youngest kids were girls. It was lid rambunctious and the boys fought a lot but her childhood was fun and they all reunite twice a year since their parents passed away. A lot of friends came from similarly large happy families where there was no mental illness. The chaos was solely caused by the disease.
To me, so many of the kids to end up with mental problems is down to the up bringing. There father had a lot to play with this. So sad. Poor family 🙏🏻💚🇮🇪
Very interesting and sad story. This is the first time I have heard of 6 brothers with schizophrenia in one family. I have heard of many families with every female and some males who had bipolar. Child SA was rampant in the family as well.
When I was in grad school I remember doing a paper to determine the link between schizophrenia, and obstetric complications, and there is a link. This is really a crazy story. I am sad for the girls, and all that they suffered.
Really tragic, being a parent in that situation would seriously challenge your sanity and faith as well perhaps, I can't help but feel empathy for this family in spite of anyone's culpability in this horrific story .
i worked with the mentally ill from 1978 to 2022 and i can say it is the hardest job you can work, they have the right to attack staff and the staff cannot fight back, you constantly look over your shoulders to protect yourself, i was lucky i knew how to protect myself from harm but i have seen other staff members getting attacked and beat up bad, i was the one that had to teach classes about protecting yourself what to do, these people have more rights then a sane person.
"Colorado Springs Community" I thought of a wonderful warm charming loving movie called Christmas Card. *Alice Evans/Faith and her loving parents are Ed Asner/Luke and Lois Nettleton/Rosie. Family jokester Uncle Peter Jason /Richard. Sweetest family ever. John Newton/Cody plays soldier visiting the town of Colorado Springs with no living relatives.
People are saying poor mother. What do you think would happen if you just keep popping out babies? You can't give anyone the attention they need. It's called parenting.
Do you think the mom just kept deciding to have another child? She had absolutely no say in the matter. She couldn’t say “no” to her husband and contraception was prohibited by the church. So yes, poor mom.
Like you said in a later comment, Lindsay/Mary later went to a boarding school, while Margaret was sent to live with family friends. Thanks for the clarity.
Coming from large family, I can tell you, it stems from a selfish parent or parents. In my case it was my mother. It is a very long psychological scenario but I have figured it out. It is a very sad outcome and we, the children pay the price.
I actually feel so bad for the Mom. She had zero support and no idea what was happening to her kids 😢 I can't imagine. I know she wasn't perfect but the Mom in me still feels bad for her.
My great grandparents had 14 kids, two sets of twins. This was before birth control was available. They were very poor share Croppers in Hartwell Georgia. Hard times, but they were devout Christians and lived well and long. My grandmother lived til 100, RIP. She was the last of the siblings to pass. ❤
Wow, looking closely at the family photos online and I noticed I knew Peter. I had no idea his family all suffered like this, I thought he was the only one in his family with this. But man was he a funny guy! He always had his recorder on hand and would do a performance for you, and the stuff he’d talk about (whether true or not?) was funny as hell 😂 He had some good stories
I had six siblings and sometimes my dad called us by our number. It was only joking and only once in a while. I was number three. When I sign a greeting card to one of my siblings, I sign it Nancy Lee number3.
So seven children in all. My mother was an only child. My son is an only child- adopted as a baby because my ex husband had low-0 sperm count. Our son was perfect_ now adult; I was somewhat afraid to adopt again because you don't know what that person will be, of course that can be true in any case. Well I know my bloodline- DNA stopped with me. ☮️✌️🧘♀️
Schizophrenia is considered so Devastating because it has Positive, and Negative Symptoms, and is very difficult to Diagnose., even now. Back then, I can't imagine.
No it isn't difficult to diagnose. A simple brain scan shows the disturbing changes to the nerve pathways in the schizophrenic brain. I have 7 siblings. 2 are mentally ill and 3 are schizophrenic. Yes we had an abusive childhood, but schizophrenia is also an inherited disease and is the reason my grown sons will not have children.
Tragic situation. Sounds like potentially there was a genetic tendency and the overcrowded, chaotic home life and other environmental factors triggered the schizophrenia. Blaming the mother is stupid.
Ephesians 6:12 “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” King James Version (KJV)
Yes, my father in-law kicked my husband out because of mental health issues. Being a Lt. Col.@ USAFA didn't want them to know about mental illness. My husband is oldest of 6 boy,3 in total suffer some form of mental illness. My husband of 45 years now is back in a Nursing Home. My Father in law taught Physics @ the Academy
What a strange and sad story, though it's amazing they were able to stay in touch with each other after all that. I've seen families obliterated by much less.
Tragic for the family, but if anything runs in a family then having more and more kids only increases the chances of something manifesting more than once in generation
I really QUESTION if they really had schizophrenia.. the boys did not have their father around disciplining them .. he was working a lot.. and the mom just told them to go outside and beat EACHOTHER up.. I just wonder if they are just UNRULY BOYS LEFT TO THEIR OWN DEVICES and no father around to TEACH THEM how to be like men.
Thanks for the theory, Freud. Any other mothers you'd like to blame for their children's mental health crises/illnesses? I challenge you to research mental illness in a variety of forms, from *reputable* sources, and then come back and tell us how the mother is really to blame for this.
This case has several layers, but I’d start with the generational s.abuse, the conflict between the devout religion and the assault/betrayal by a cleric, the emotional distance on the part of the father as he was dealing with his trauma, the mother’s drive for perfection-as she was undoubtedly trying to cope with her own assault back in that day, etc. This combination would be too much for anyone to bear. Especially bc they had to keep everything secret to preserve the reputation of the family. What a psychological pressure cooker! It’s no wonder their mind’s psychological structure collapsed.
I begged for ECT, after suffering from depression, for over 20 years. There is nothing torturous about it, as a sedative is administered beforehand. It knocked out my memory, in fact, I was surprised to find I was suddenly in the month of August, and the last I remembered, it was May. or June. I believe my oldest brother and sister had schizophrenia. It was common to blame the mother, but I never thought my mother was at fault. Our mother was a hard worker, and a good mother. Our parents were alcoholics, I was convinced, all stemming from the Great Depression, then WWII.
I see a lot of misinformation going on here along with the OP agreeing. Many that don’t suffer from any mental illness don’t get or ever will. I come from a family that schizophrenia on my mom’s side and didn’t skip a generation until the fith generation.
The only difference between this family and most other families battling mental illnesses is their father's brutality. Without the abuse the kids would still be mentally ill because of their dna. Very sad family but the story is sensational, bordering only on the chaos illness brings to many people.
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Don't forget to leave a comment and let me know what you think about the case. Until next time.
This is the first video I've watched of yours and I thought it was excellent. Very interesting and tragic at the same time.
You've gained a new subscriber, keep up the good work 🙂🙂
No offense but if you have PTSD it might not be a good idea to have 12 kids
@@LeahDyson-kq4bd there wasn’t much in the form of contraception in those days, not like today where you have a choice pill,condoms,the coil or the injection, large families were also the norm for many people xx
Stop talking shite.
I love big families my aunts one had 10 and the other 8 kids
I’m an only child and if I could’ve changed it, I certainly would’ve😢
The father was absent most of the time. Blame has been put on the mother. So unfair.
9/10 the mother gets blamed even when the father is completely absent.
@OffTheWagons exactly. Perfectly stated.
Yeah it's always the way
Unfair. I know from having four a good part of raising them is herd care. There aren’t enough hours in the day to raise a group with the tendency to schizophrenia and another group without. It wasn’t like the three oldest had it.
It’s a cop out to blame the parents. And yes, every therapist, psychologist, blames the mom
They say trauma ‘’loads the weapon’’ of predisposed mental illness. My only brother (with 5 sisters) developed schizophrenia around age 20. He was highly intelligent, talented, funny, and creative. It’s absolutely heart-wrenching to witness a loved one lose their mind.. their grip on reality
If your father never called you by name but by a number i'd venture to say there was no love or warmth given.
Typical military household, been there couldn't pay me to go back.
The father may have had undiagnosed schizophrenia
Child sexual molestation has profound impact on mental health.
WHAT????!!!!!!! NO!!!!!!!!
100% 🎯❗
@@maureenbuck4795 every kind of molestation. But...how well parents try do do 'good', thay will allways! fail. Not because they really mess things up (many do actually), but because the child misunderstands their words, their actions, etc.. Starts thinking and worrying, keeps a distance and things start to take a bad turn and an even badder outcome. For all involved. So....TALK and keep talking, explaining yourself, open, without restrictions. And LISTEN...to the words, the gestures made, the mimics, the actions. And allways keep at least a window open. A look-out...
@annemaria5126 I think the issues are deeper than a simple misunderstanding. This concept expects human beings to be mind readers. When a child knows the parent will protect them and listen to them, that, in itself, is a divine gift.
@@annemaria5126the children look up to the parents and don’t expect them to fail because they’re the ones that are teaching them the lessons of life. But because the parents are not perfect, they’re absolutely gonna fail and the children don’t understand how to take that. It’s like the parents are still learning themselves. They’ve never been parents before so they learn as they go. It’s not like any parent has had the opportunity to test their parenting skills before they have children. I know if I could do it all over again, I’d definitely do things totally different than I did. And I don’t think that schizophrenia comes from the ways of parenting but yet comes from genetics. Although I do see some tendencies that can make it worse for a schizophrenia person that comes from the parents. I myself suffer from mental illness such as depression and anxiety which have stemmed from not being the person that my mother wants me to be and no matter how hard I try to fight it, it doesn’t just go away. I am a people pleaser and when I get overwhelmed bc I can’t please everyone around me, I fall into a deep state of depression and my anxiety is through the roof. With it also comes anger and I’ve never had anger issues. But the older I get, the worse it gets. I feel like if I’m blessed to live, that I’ll more than likely develop dementia.
I think the questions should begin at, the father called them not by their names, but by their birth order number.
I'm thinking of calling people by number in the order I first see them each day.
Perhaps, having suffered, from a severe case, of P.T.S.D., after several close calls, as a secret agent (OSS?), during WWII? Spent the rest of his life, living, in a family of spies, even if they didn't know why. And so, NAMES were too dangerous, numbers were safe enough.
My thoughts exactly!
That's messed up!
He helped name these kids and can't be bothered to remember their names?!
totally! and many ppl want to blame the mother! with Schizophrenia, i don’t believe it’s cause is by how they’re raised but maybe the way it’s managed or dealt with that may help
Psychiatrists are often crazier than their patients.
My dad always believed that.😂
My psychiatrist misdiagnosed me I was bipolar mania and tried to force me to take seroquel meant for schizophrenia ot made ne sick
@@ericrivera8410
Empathy. I was tricked into taking olanzepine. I'm stuck on it now. The witdrawls are terrifying. I'm so fckng angry when I think about it.
Yeah. My nephew had to go to a mental hospital for a couple of weeks. My brother said the mentally ill were running the mental hospital.
I had a friend who was a psychiatrist. She was loony toons. She told me that psychiatrists are as crazy as their patients.
No, not the most disturbed family in America.
These poor parents. Especially the Mother at home parenting by herself most of the time and being BLAMED for the disease in her sons by psychiatrists of the 1960's who thought her parenting style CAUSED Schizophrenia! Thank goodness we know a little more about this mental illness today.
I mostly agree with you. Though I do blame the parents for turning a blind eye to the physical and sexual abuse some of the brothers inflicted on their siblings. That was wrong.
Her poor body...😢😢😢
This abuse is still happening in families..but hey they smile and hide brutality...😢😢😢
Violence within families is more prevalent than most people want to admit ! If you were born into a normal family you are truly Blessed !
For all Victims, I pray for you everyday !
Yes. My family didn’t have it all but I’m thankful every day I grew up without abuse.
@@BlackRhetoric
I am grateful you didn't grew up with it too ! I grew up with rampant and sometimes truly terrifying abuse. My siblings continued it in our adulthood until I went No Contact !. It took me many years to be grateful for it in part. I have to believe it was meant to be because what spung out of that was the knowledge that all you need is God and He is Everything !. Thus abuse, in part became a Blessing !
When you learn that all else falls into place ! God Bless !
✝️🌿
I’ve always said, a crazy, dysfunctional family, is a normal family. 🤪🤪🤪🤪
🙏🏽❤️🩹
@@BlackRhetoricThank Gd.
The two sisters didn't "feel" neglected and endangered--they were quite literally endangered (by sibling r*pists) and passively neglected. @15:19
Very sad to see the multigenerational mental health and sexual abuse/molestation.
Hopefully the cycle has ended.
Mental illness can run in families.
Yes, it surely is.
The Duggar family shoves the kids off on the older children. The parents don’t raise them.
6 out of 12 children have Schizophrenia. Oh, my lord, what a tremendous heartbreak and burden.
The abuse they subjected the younger siblings to makes the area of damage much larger. Did any children survive unscathed?
@@carlamarlene2927 How could they, this is just horrific.
@burningsandsexploration3711
@burningsandsexploration3711 You are an adult telling other adults that abuse victims are a Federal burden.
Mental health was considered a taboo topic at the time these kids were forced to adjust to it. Mental illness was considered something to be ashamed of, so it was hidden, rather than treated. It's such a sad way to live.
My heart goes out to all families that suffer mental illness. Most of my life has been devoted to trying to help my Mother and my Sister. I've been in therapy more than half of my life and at 72 remain there. My maternal great grandmother may have marked the beginnings of this disease. I pray for an angel at bedtime to look after my 63 y/o sister out there in the world. I received word via phone call yesterday from a motorist that she had stopped on major bridge when she saw my Sister slumped over the bridge crossing the Mississippi river. There is nothing more l can do but pray. I'm exhausted from decades of this. I now am in a stage 4 disease and am lost about what to do say or think about all of this. I have taken up her funeral plan along with mine. I feel it's all l can do to help now. I'm writing to let all know just how serious mental illness is. It's a lifetime of dealing with pain and living with uncertainty usually daily. Please pray for my Sister to somehow and someway to overcome. It's become enough for me to be able to sleep at night.
What is your family’s diagnosis?
Mom was paranoid schizophrenia. She was also self medicating with valium and alcohol early on in my Sisters life and in my early high school years. Also our Dad was an alcoholic. Our Mom was very physically and verbally abusive. As a senior in HS l had to go before a judge have a lunacy sworn out to have her picked up for observation. She held us at gunpoint behind our locked door for 2 days. My sister has been a drug addict beginning in her early teens. Sorry to unload this much info, but believe me, l needed to release this and free my soul if only for awhile.
Bless you. Mental health issues are so very difficult for us to try to understand. Keep doing what you can for yourself and stay engaged with life. I’m 73. My oldest son was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia when he was in his 30’s. He was 42 when he died of an infection that went to his brain. In his state of mind, he did not seek medical treatment for a spinal wound because he thought everyone was an enemy and wanted to hurt him. My heart hurts for him and I miss him every day.He has been gone for 6 years today, July 28. I pray for everyone who is experiencing any sort of mental health issue. I always remember the good person that my son was and how much he didn’t want me to worry about him. I hope you have some good memories too.
@@CarmenLucia. Paranoid schizophrenia bipolar
@@Stitcher_in_MD I will pray for your peace to return to you.He is gone and not in pain any longer. It is the people left that will remain scattered until they no longer are. Do you have a family history of this and do have have an idea where it started
My dear friends and one time landlords who were two of the kindest, intelligent humans I have ever met had 4 children who were all paranoid schizophrenics. They were all diagnosed at varying ages in their adulthood. The parents bought a multi home property where all their kids (and parents) had their own private homes. I became a tenant when the eldest son got successfully treated and married. I lived there for 15 years and witnessed the horrible toll the illness took on the whole family! I also witnessed the most incredible love these parents had for their kids!
Parents finally passed in their 70’s, property was sold…. I wonder often where they are and how they’re doing
And this is why huge families are not a positive thing. No one can give proper attention to constant new babies while still caring for toddlers and preschoolers.
The problem was schizophrenia not haveing too many siblings
Look at the Duggar-Family: 19 kids and many questions...
Not totally true. My grandma had several kids, my dad the third from the last and for the most part they were all fairly well balanced. Well maybe not perfect, but none of them ever did anything disturbing. Some might have party a bit to hard when younger but that was the extent of their mischief
@@deborahallenbaugh2110mental illness and behavioural issues are far more likely in large families particularly when they breed their own if you know what I mean ,parents just pretty much leave them to it as well.
That's a ridiculous statement regarding large families. I know far too many of them that did not have this problem, while knowing far too many "small" families that do. Good mothers and fathers are able to multitask.
Schizophrenia is often diagnosed too late to keep it from passing on to another generation. My friend's two sons decided not to marry or have kids due to their father's schizophrenia, and one of them ended up committing suicide in his 50's, after suffering from the disease.
It's in the DNA in some cases or an event can set it off.
Usually in early twenties I knew a schizophrenic with six personalities
Its not hereditary because my uncle has it and his kids dont
I agree. My family has a long history of mental illness in the form of depression and anxiety. I wasn’t diagnosed till my early forties which made a huge difference in my life and my children’s mental health. I wish my mother had gotten help in her lifetime.
@@Maariu01 it can skip a generation. My ex's mother had it and so did her brother. None of her kids do far have shown it. Borderline and an undiagnosed son she did have.
I’m wondering how much of their psychological issues weren’t brought on by the father. I will say that children learn what was normal in their own private homes. My own family suffer from depression and anxiety, from grandparents, parents, children and grandchildren. It’s a vicious cycle but myself and my own children are able to recognize and be proactive in our own mental health. You can’t break the chain but you can be educated and seek help. It has made a huge difference in myself and my children.
Rather than brought on by their father, I would think inherited from their father. And fostered by useless mental health care system that is only mildly improved since the time this family struggled with this.
Abuse of any kind can trigger underlying mental disorders. It's sad 😢
Some of it could have been environment, but mental illnesses like schizophrenia are passed down through genes and it usually skips a generation. My thought is that one of the parents have mental illness in their familial history, or something the father encountered during the war was passed down to his children. Either way, I'm interested in the parents' family mental health history.
I worked in psychiatric hospital and I was surprised how many in there were victims of Child Abuse! That catholic priest is the first to blame!
Organized. And mind control.
This is scary......
I can imagine the plight of the poor mom, with that many sick kids😱😱
I have a daughter with schizophrenia… it’s a horrible disease… 😢
My mom was schizophrenic. Im a twin my brother was perfection in her eyes. She called me the beast😢
That's terrible. I pray every day for kids growing up in situations like yours.
I can't imagine how hard that was for you to grow up in that environment, it's so sad to think of children in a situation like that. 😢❤
🫂 that was her, not your fault. You are not a beast 🫂
I'm sorry 😔
Horrible of her , stay strong
You should read their story, Hidden Valley Road. It is very well written!! It must have been so difficult having so many of your children diagnosed with such an invasive mental disease!!
I think I will . I’d like to learn more about the Family.
I read it years ago and also recommend it.
I appreciate the recommendation. I do not, however, believe they were all schizophrenic. They were SA’d by a pervert early in life, which I believe can change children physically, not just mentally. It may also have been a “perfect storm” of factors. But, the effects of sustained child abuse is grossly underestimated, mostly for legal/financial reasons as we see with the Catholic Church.
I was just about to rec the book.
@@MsMarple That's interesting. I don't remember a pervert in the book, but it's typical for me to forget things like that. SA would explain a lot. My clearest memory is what they did to birds of prey to "train" them.
My grandmother came from a very large family. She had only one child because as one of the older girls, she was stuck with all those younger siblings
Sad. I loved caring for my younger siblings.
It’s not the responsibility of older children to care for younger ones it’s the responsibility the mother and father who made them. Practice birth control if you don’t want to take care of your children.
She already raised a huge family and was ready for some time off.
My mother's sentiments exactly. She was the oldest of 7 and got stuck with all the work. So I ended up being the only child. 😊
My Mom was one of 12 siblings my Dad was one of 21. I’m an only child.
Please note: Schizophrenic individuals are NOT typically violent or sex offenders. Paranoia and depression are not always characteristic of schizophrenia. Genetics and environmental trauma contribute to this condition. Inheritance of specific genes may or may not lead to schizophrenia - depending on one's circumstances ,it may or may not be exhibited and to varying degrees.
Good to know. I had never heard of schizophrenia causing sexual violence or otherwise.
Right? What instead: psychopathy and mind control through trauma (sexual).
Please note: schizophrenic people are WAY more prone to violence and being sex offenders. My mother was schophrenic. Don't tell us what they don't do. We KNOW what they do. We have lived it.
I grew up in Colorado near that area around the same time frame (I'm 63), and I never heard of these people! That poor mother! My God! 😢
I grew up at the Air Force Academy and my parents were very close friends of the Galvins! I remember going to their house many times as a child. Our family moved to Denver when my dad retired from the Air Force . This was before I knew anything about the boys’ illness’s. After we moved to Denver, my mom would tell me only snippets of things happening to the Galvins.! When the book came out about the Galvins, I read it, and my heart was so saddened by the lives of the family members!
What a beautiful looking family. Never judge till you take a walk in their shoes.No one knows what goes on behind closed doors.That mother did the very best she could. In the times that were in it. What a cross to bear .God bless them all.
Agree! Thank you for your comment.
Ya I have never heard of this family.....thanks for covering this
This is a Well Done , Respectful video. Thank You. Devastating for the poor Family.
They always blame the mothers. 🤦🏼♀️
Why not blame the person who sexually abused some of the boys instead then.
😢
It's always the Mothers Fault.☺
Who was raising them¿? The father was a deadbeat that stayed gone, just because he supported them money wise doesn't mean that much.
Mothers want to run the show. To control everything. Yet never ever want to take blame. For most of them, it’s always the man’s fault.
The book is incredibly well written and indicates how little mental health is cared about in the USA.
What a terribly sad story, My heart goes out to them all. Schizophrenia is the worst mental illness in my opinion.
Schizophrenia, Violence, and Child Abuse. Horrific!
To answer the question, no this is not the most disturbed family in the US.
Not by a long shot.
Right, not even close. With the turpins, Gabriel Fernandez family, Shanda Vander ark & Paul Ferguson, ruby franke, etc etc etc. Those are disturbed families. These are people suffering from (for at least one, treatment resistant) mental illness.
@@vanessacallahan3515 Just look at the RUMPS
It could possibly be the most disturbed family in the US for having the most people in one family to be disturbed
The tr💩mp's are!!!
Yeah, him having mental challenges was a real indication that this couple should have an incredible amount of children! Not!
SMH 🤦♀️
That was exactly my first thought it was like instead of just denying his trauma he over compensated by having a dozen kids
I honestly feel for the whole family, and understand the time period played a huge effect on how everything turned out.
Back then, thanks to Freud and his cohorts the parents, especially the mother was blamed for pretty much all the behavior problems. Parents of autistic children also were blamed for their issues. NOW we know it is an organic disease. It is also likely genetic. Genetics aren't always direct and can skip a generation or two.
I have seen two teens from a neighbors go from being a regular teen and descend into schizophrenia. One was a child raised by his normal grandmother but was the product of 2 schizophrenics in a mental unit who had sex and his mother got pregnant. He was VERY deeply disturbed. we watched him slowly be overcome by his illness, helped him seek counseling and medications because his grandmother died, and his uncle took advantage and ripped off his inheritance, , but he as many do for at least a while kept stopping. He became violent and we had to stop contact with him after he was institutionalized and he told them he lived with us which he did not.. With granddaughter in the house and he having tried to kidnap and molest a child (something he NEVER would have done before) we didn't allow him to contact us- especially after he tried to get discharged here.
Another was a young woman- she never got violent that we know of, but she hallucinated and to this day refuses to take her medications and refuses to recognize her illness despite numerous long hospitalizations. Her son is not afflicted with this fortunately, is married and doing very well despite CPS intermittently removing him and reuniting them. She lost all custody of her daughter. As a nurse we occasionally get schizophrenic patients with medical problems and the medications they use now are SO MUCH BETTER than the old psychotropics like thorazine and Haldol. Those are used more for violent breaks and rarely for severe cases. Knowing it's organic is helpful too. Vitamins are also helpful to a point if there is a deficit.
One man diagnosed with dementia really had a B-12 deficiency and cleared up after it was replaced. HOWEVER- his wife of 20+ years turned into a bit of a Black Widow and whom he trusted to manage the medications and VA appointments stopped giving it to him and he ended up incapacitated. I found out about it and called the VA with my concerns and they too had been concerned and they were going to get APS involved and possibly get her out of the picture.
There's also drug induced psychosis from drugs like meth- and there can be a point of no return.
My dad called my son "7" because he was the 7th grandchild. My husband was furious, but i was so desensitised to my dad's apathy that i couldn't understand why he was upset. @2:05
At some point yo saw it for what it was. How did you manage? How is your son?
@@Lydweena The whole family is fractured honestly. My parents are extreme religious fanatics; I simply dropped contact.
I feel sorry for my son, who probably feels somewhat "alone in the world" in some ways, but thankfully he doesn't remember my parents.
It’s seems that these parents were mostly absent for their roles as parents. They were irresponsible to have children that they could not nurture. So sad for the kids.
Thank you, My Exact thought....
@@NancyMoran-r3b your an idiot
@@ndog2005 your an idiot to. I’m not sure if either one of you could even be a good dog parent.
Any family that has that many children is irresponsible.
“These parents”? They’d be deceased if the mother was absent. The father was a horrible non-father and non-husband. Don’t blame the mother who was left alone to deal with deranged grown males.
Some of my great aunts had schizophrenia caused by having scarlet fever as children. The very high fever can cause brain damage which may result in mental illness.
God bless them all. So devastating. I have known of three who struggled with this disease. Thank God science & medical knowledge has improved greatly. No one understands how lonely and tortured they feel. 😢😢😢
I liked your presentation, but damn the story is so sad. What's sadder is there are families going through this right now.
I can speak on this, my mother had schizophrenia & it didn't help that she was running from bombs in WWII Germany. There are many levels of schizophrenia & the one that's the toughest is child schizophrenia, genetic, environmental & that's the one we think my mother had. Her head splintered during the horrors of war. It was hard living with someone who was diagnosed with the disease, it is no & I mean no walk in the park. I even begin to imagine what it was like in that household, you never know when the bomb is going to drop & all hell is going to break loose.
You did a great job this is a sad story
Looks like shameless show
Thank you for covering this
Thanks for listening
Simply put, that’s too many kids for a modern family. Way too many.
My friend was one of 10, just the two youngest kids were girls. It was lid rambunctious and the boys fought a lot but her childhood was fun and they all reunite twice a year since their parents passed away. A lot of friends came from similarly large happy families where there was no mental illness. The chaos was solely caused by the disease.
That is an excellent video. Original and great research. Thanks.
I have never heard of this case although I bingewatch crime channels. Thanks for delving into a relatively unknown case.
Check out the doc on Max. That was my inspiration.
To me, so many of the kids to end up with mental problems is down to the up bringing. There father had a lot to play with this. So sad. Poor family 🙏🏻💚🇮🇪
Very interesting and sad story. This is the first time I have heard of 6 brothers with schizophrenia in one family. I have heard of many families with every female and some males who had bipolar. Child SA was rampant in the family as well.
No this is a family who were and are impacted by a serious mental health issue
You Researched thoroughly, and this is Informative.
When I was in grad school I remember doing a paper to determine the link between schizophrenia, and obstetric complications, and there is a link. This is really a crazy story. I am sad for the girls, and all that they suffered.
Interesting. I didn't see any info about the mom having difficulties in childbirth. Doesn't mean it didn't happen though.
Really tragic, being a parent in that situation would seriously challenge your sanity and faith as well perhaps, I can't help but feel empathy for this family in spite of anyone's culpability in this horrific story .
Beyond sad! May God give them Grace in Heaven.🙏🙏🙏
This is a really good channel! I’m glad I found it!! 👍
i worked with the mentally ill from 1978 to 2022 and i can say it is the hardest job you can work, they have the right to attack staff and the staff cannot fight back, you constantly look over your shoulders to protect yourself, i was lucky i knew how to protect myself from harm but i have seen other staff members getting attacked and beat up bad, i was the one that had to teach classes about protecting yourself what to do, these people have more rights then a sane person.
That's ' crazy ' in of itself .
I can’t believe Ive never heard about them. That is wild!
Scary to think that families like the Galvins probably exist all over the world and we never hear about them.
This is absolutely heartbreaking. I can’t imagine what this family went through.
I pray that the remaining surviving children are safe and happy.
this is a great video but you definitely need a new mic
Working on it 💕
Not the mic... it's the monotonous voice
Guinea pig psych, pharma funnels, barbarian shock therapy and incest???? Dozen kids....
Missing parent....
What could possibly go wrong?
It’s a lot.
MKUltra
I read this novel, "Hidden Valley Road," intense story, to say the least.😢
It was a lot to unpack.
Has to be one of the saddest family histories there is😢
Very sad. Hopefully there are better treatments today.
I've never heard this story. Thank you!
"Colorado Springs Community" I thought of a wonderful warm charming loving movie called Christmas Card.
*Alice Evans/Faith and her loving parents are Ed Asner/Luke and Lois Nettleton/Rosie. Family jokester Uncle Peter Jason
/Richard. Sweetest family ever. John Newton/Cody plays soldier visiting the town of Colorado Springs with no living relatives.
People are saying poor mother. What do you think would happen if you just keep popping out babies? You can't give anyone the attention they need. It's called parenting.
Totally agreed 💯
Contraception was not always accessible
@@Dietconsulting what⁰ about abstenation, was that available ?
If I think 'poor mother' in one sense, it's about the wear and tear to her body. Actual tearing during births.
Do you think the mom just kept deciding to have another child? She had absolutely no say in the matter. She couldn’t say “no” to her husband and contraception was prohibited by the church. So yes, poor mom.
Excellent video, can't wait to see what's next!
I can't wait to watch the documentary.
You said Lindsay was sent to a boarding school in 9th grade. Then you said that she was sent to live with family friends. Which did she do?
Like you said in a later comment, Lindsay/Mary later went to a boarding school, while Margaret was sent to live with family friends. Thanks for the clarity.
Coming from large family, I can tell you, it stems from a selfish parent or parents.
In my case it was my mother. It is a very long psychological scenario but I have figured it out. It is a very sad outcome and we, the children pay the price.
I actually feel so bad for the Mom. She had zero support and no idea what was happening to her kids 😢 I can't imagine. I know she wasn't perfect but the Mom in me still feels bad for her.
I read this book, several years back. Fascinating story
Very informative
Thank you. More to come!
My great grandparents had 14 kids, two sets of twins. This was before birth control was available. They were very poor share Croppers in Hartwell Georgia. Hard times, but they were devout Christians and lived well and long. My grandmother lived til 100, RIP. She was the last of the siblings to pass. ❤
I love it. Having a lot of kids isn’t the problem. Raising them in an abusive, chaotic environment is the problem.
Wow, looking closely at the family photos online and I noticed I knew Peter. I had no idea his family all suffered like this, I thought he was the only one in his family with this. But man was he a funny guy! He always had his recorder on hand and would do a performance for you, and the stuff he’d talk about (whether true or not?) was funny as hell 😂 He had some good stories
I had six siblings and sometimes my dad called us by our number. It was only joking and only once in a while. I was number three. When I sign a greeting card to one of my siblings, I sign it Nancy Lee number3.
So seven children in all. My mother was an only child. My son is an only child- adopted as a baby because my ex husband had low-0 sperm count. Our son was perfect_ now adult; I was somewhat afraid to adopt again because you don't know what that person will be, of course that can be true in any case. Well I know my bloodline- DNA stopped with me. ☮️✌️🧘♀️
Schizophrenia is considered so Devastating because it has Positive, and Negative Symptoms, and is very difficult to Diagnose., even now. Back then, I can't imagine.
No it isn't difficult to diagnose. A simple brain scan shows the disturbing changes to the nerve pathways in the schizophrenic brain. I have 7 siblings. 2 are mentally ill and 3 are schizophrenic. Yes we had an abusive childhood, but schizophrenia is also an inherited disease and is the reason my grown sons will not have children.
Yes it can and sometimes it doesn’t even come out. The environment you’re in plays a big factor as does genetics.
@@eileenhetherington3704it’s not currently possible to determine that a person with schizophrenia simply by looking at a brain scan.
absolutely heartbreaking😔😔
Tragic situation. Sounds like potentially there was a genetic tendency and the overcrowded, chaotic home life and other environmental factors triggered the schizophrenia.
Blaming the mother is stupid.
Ephesians 6:12
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”
King James Version (KJV)
Someone should look into the Catholic church they went to every Sunday and see who was teaching there at that time ?
Works for me. Good thinking.
Yes, my father in-law kicked my husband out because of mental health issues. Being a Lt. Col.@ USAFA didn't want them to know about mental illness. My husband is oldest of 6 boy,3 in total suffer some form of mental illness. My husband of 45 years now is back in a Nursing Home. My Father in law taught Physics @ the Academy
What a strange and sad story, though it's amazing they were able to stay in touch with each other after all that. I've seen families obliterated by much less.
Way too many children! Poor women who had to put up with this !
Really! Too many kids too soon I believe was the major cause of this family's misfortune. Children are so vulnerable, and demanding!
Tragic for the family, but if anything runs in a family then having more and more kids only increases the chances of something manifesting more than once in generation
I really QUESTION if they really had schizophrenia.. the boys did not have their father around disciplining them .. he was working a lot.. and the mom just told them to go outside and beat EACHOTHER up.. I just wonder if they are just UNRULY BOYS LEFT TO THEIR OWN DEVICES and no father around to TEACH THEM how to be like men.
Excellent comment. I too wonder that
Not if they were hearing voices and hallucinating other things. Being rowdy does not cause these disturbances.
Thanks for the theory, Freud. Any other mothers you'd like to blame for their children's mental health crises/illnesses? I challenge you to research mental illness in a variety of forms, from *reputable* sources, and then come back and tell us how the mother is really to blame for this.
@@rebeccac1642 excellent response!!
Don't blame the mom. That's lazy.
Incredibly interesting great vid
Glad you enjoyed it
I think all the remaining brothers are wandering aimlessly around my community.
Why I am a huge proponent for asking about families mental health history before you have kids.
This case has several layers, but I’d start with the generational s.abuse, the conflict between the devout religion and the assault/betrayal by a cleric, the emotional distance on the part of the father as he was dealing with his trauma, the mother’s drive for perfection-as she was undoubtedly trying to cope with her own assault back in that day, etc. This combination would be too much for anyone to bear. Especially bc they had to keep everything secret to preserve the reputation of the family. What a psychological pressure cooker! It’s no wonder their mind’s psychological structure collapsed.
You can always tell a AI-written script when it repeats facts.
I read the book written abt this this family a few yrs ago. Very sad.
God bless that poor woman! She must have felt like a brood mare…
I begged for ECT, after suffering from depression, for over 20 years. There is nothing torturous about it, as a sedative is administered beforehand. It knocked out my memory, in fact, I was surprised to find I was suddenly in the month of August, and the last I remembered, it was May. or June. I believe my oldest brother and sister had schizophrenia. It was common to blame the mother, but I never thought my mother was at fault. Our mother was a hard worker, and a good mother. Our parents were alcoholics, I was convinced, all stemming from the Great Depression, then WWII.
I see a lot of misinformation going on here along with the OP agreeing. Many that don’t suffer from any mental illness don’t get or ever will. I come from a family that schizophrenia on my mom’s side and didn’t skip a generation until the fith generation.
The abuse/trauma certainly explain schizophrenia. What a mess
The only difference between this family and most other families battling mental illnesses is their father's brutality. Without the abuse the kids would still be mentally ill because of their dna. Very sad family but the story is sensational, bordering only on the chaos illness brings to many people.
6 siblings diagnosed as schizophrenic-tragic
The parents didn't realize, the battle was just beginning, after the war.