Fixing Miscalculations on 10' Logging Wheels | Engels Coach Shop
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 ส.ค. 2023
- What works for 99.9% of wood wheels does not work on these Holt hub logging wheels. I need to adjust the position of the spoke tenons to account for the unique design of these dodged-spoke hubs. Building and restoring horse drawn vehicles is always teaching me something new.
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#wheelwright #blacksmiths #loggingequipment
Dave, you richly deserve the National Heritage Fellowship Award as a living national treasure, as was given to Alex Stewart in 1983. Those of us following Dave's work, please advise how we can make this happen.
I concur completely!!
Here you are…
We are too late for the current year but here is the info: www.arts.gov/honors/heritage/make-a-national-heritage-fellowship-nomination
@@stevenvaughn7737 no attachment
You have my vote.
Always a nice feeling to catch and solve an issue before the point of no return. Well done.
What really is impressive is the fact that most Wheelwrights of the 1700's and 1800's were barely taught in a semblance of a school then did most, if not all, of their training as apprentices of the trade. Dave, you truly are showing the incredible complexity that these men had to figure out mathematically. Love your show!
The guild.
Just realize the person that owned this set up new was as proud of it as a owner of a new logging truck today.
The patience you show is an inspiration to those of us who follow your work. I never get tired of watching to see how you solve problems.
your old school teachers would be so proud of you dave keep it going
Here we have a classic example of managing a project so that you never paint yourself into the proverbial corner. Dave, I believe your innate wisdom and experience caused you to leave the extra length on the spokes for just such a scenario. This is why I often avoid cutting to finished sizes until I get to the point where it becomes necessary. The best craftsmen know they aren't infallible, and lesser ones who think they are will eventually learn the hard way.
I really appreciate how you shared the whole process with us, so we can all learn from your experience. Thank you, Dave!
The skill and knowledge of wheelwrights of the past just blows my mind. I'm so grateful you are preserving this knowledge.
Mr Dave? You and your workmanship are just awesome! And so we give God the glory for his workmanship in you!!!
Now we know why few men became expert wheelwrights with happy customers.
You are an incredible teacher sir! It’s not the fact that you have the know how to do what you do. I’m constantly amazed that you are able to translate a complex set of issues in a way that I can grok it!
Learnt a new word today, "grok"!
I cracked a wry smile at your final comments. Thanks for lifting my mood so today. Well done for all your work and cant wait to see the next steps
I especially liked the part when you were sitting on your workbench/tablesaw working on the spokes. That had a look to it like in a fairy tale.😊
Here's too 200 thousand . Cheers that's huge . Well deserved .
I am always amazed at the talent that you have. I was wondering as I watched this video if there is anyone left that does the amazing work that you do.
Actually yes, there’s a wheelwright in Neosho, MO. He has rebuilt a doctors buggy, my chuck wagon and stagecoache for me. We’re both members of the MO. Cowboy Poet Society.
Sorry Dave, but you lost me a while ago !! Way too technical for my diet, but never-the-less extremely fascinating as you build this wheel !! I salute you, sir, for your knowledge and wisdom when it comes to wheel building and/or refurbishing abilities !!
I continue to follow along with this awesome project !! Thanks, Dave.
My loving Wife often reminds of my sometimes excessive verbosity ! LOL Today, I am head-shaking SPEECHLESS !
Great video on the math required to recreate a 10 foot wheel. As far as I'm concerned you are already a living national treasure!
A perfect explanation of a very complicated problem. You are an excellent teacher.
I very much appreciate the background music. Dave, you prove the exception to the rule of Jack of All Trades, Master of None, by being Master of All Trades and No Jack. Thank you for each and every one of these videos.
I think you mean NO background Music which is so annoying.
Hi Dave, and Diane, These logging wheels look like they could run over a logging truck! I always enjoy how meticulous you are in the beginning of a project so you know where you stand with what you have to work with. That also runs through till the end of your work. As always, thank you for sharing, and take care.
HAH! I’m feeling a little smug that I figured it out the moment you had the shot in line with the wheel. But that’s only because of watching your videos for over two years. There’s no way I’d have figured it out otherwise. Brilliant vid as always.
I knew wood wheels had dish but never knew the math related to the dish or how the dish was factored into the spoke. It is incredible watching a master wheel wright in 2023.
Your explanation of the tenon angle correction reminds me of what they used to say at work. When a customer or supervisor thanked or congratulated us in writing, we called that an "Atta boy" and asked for it to be included in our personnel file. Why? Because anytime we messed up, that was called an "Aww shucks" (cleaned for family viewing) which also went into our personnel file. It took 5 Atta boys to make up for one Aww shucks! LOL!
Mistakes will be made. Experience will determine how they are fixed. Fantastic example that shows just what a skilled Craftsman you are.
I pray that everything goes safely for you when rotating the wheel because it is a beast. Love watching these, it takes me back to my child hood helping my great grandfather building wagons for the old-timers in the 60s, I still have most of his blacksmith tools from when it burnt down in 1972 due to lightning. God Bless!
Given the extraordinary amount of hand effort being applied to this project, we are witnessing the first 7 million dollar wheels like this in the last century.
I love how 1/4 inch saved Dave from wasting an awful lot of expensive wood. Experience saved the day here.
😮I now nothing about wagon wheels, and very little wood working. But I knew exactly what you were talking about. As an Artist and Craftman myself, "Its not what you can make but what you can fix" that makes a craftman. Well done. You got a new subscriber
London called. They are having a problem with their Millennium Wheel and would like you to come take a look. Seriously though, I enjoy your videos so much and look forward to every one.
Your PATIENCE & SKILLS is MORE than AMAZING
Sir Dave, you certainly opened my eyes to your fellowship of the ring, fantastic..
some of us never knew we would actually use algebra or geometry that we had to study in high school. Glad someone actually did.Good job.
I’ve been watching for a couple of years now an I never understood why you stood the wheels up at the drill press to do that part. Just never hit me…I’m sure you explained it way back when and I hadn’t seen it. 😂😂 But it all makes sense now, I so enjoy watching you solve problems as they come up! 🤠
Dave: Some where in the back of my mind I remembered that Holt as the predecessor of Caterpillar. So I looked it up on Wickopedia and my remembering was correct but there were no pictures of a Holt logging arch. I was actually disappointed. Your work today was impressive. Your ability to figure out complicated problems is beyond what I can imagine. I really enjoyed this week's video. Thank You, David Adair
Look into the archives of logging redwoods in California. There are many photographs.
rootsofmotivepower/logging-equipment/logging-arch-redding-big-wheels/
Same thing here. Add the dot and the com following the word power.
It’s amazing how when you watch these videos and your doing a wagon or buggy wheel thing’s don’t look that difficult I mean it’s not something you could just pick up overnight but then when you really explain all the steps and the math involved not to mention all the pre planning just how truly complicated these wheels are when you do them properly you are very talented and a true master of your craft I hope you continue to bring us videos for years to come it’s a pleasure watching you work
"And live to tell about it" Thanks for the chuckle, Dave!
Mr Engels it will be Sunday or Monday that my brain will get back to my normal self. When you do your thing with figuring all that you explain, But you always get it right
Lol
My great great grandfather was a logger in Louisiana. The logs are carried under the axles of the wheels. Chains wrapped around the axles would lift the logs when the extra long axle tongue was pulled up & over and rotated the axle half a turn. Thanks for sharing.
One tiny misjudged error but with you experience its easily fixed.
Just one little error with these extra large wheels.
Well spotted Dave 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
Its a relief that although it'll be a bit of a hassle to fix that those spokes weren't ruined.
thats the best explanation of the reason for the offset tenon that I have seen. Most gloss over it and, as Dave explained, you see mashed around shoulders as a result as people forget it. Brilliant stuff Dave, try not to fall under the wheel....I'm sure there's more lessons we need yet
Makes one realise the mind & skillset you bring to any job Dave.
The mark of a true professional is to realise a possible error, address and correct it.
Stay safe & well.
I think it would be nice to see Working Horses with Jim to hitch up one of the large trees that he will sometimes get. I know he is more busy than can be expected here.
I am 72 and have been woodworking for about 60 years... but certainly not to the level of Dave. I still spend 90% of my time building and 10% correcting errors or revising what I had mistaken up front... I can relate to what you go through Dave...
The only man on earth that would know how to figure the tenon degree and length.
RESPECT!!
I would NOT have have thought of this answer
I would love to see a video of these wheels in use when the build is done!! It's amazing to see what our grandfathers did with ingenuity and a horse instead of huge diesel-powered, specialized logging machines.
G'day Dave, greetings from down under.
I think old Pythagoras would have been scratching his head over that, You did well.👍
Dave,
Hi, great video explaining the tenant spoke correlation. I’m a sponge absorbing every word. Hope to find my way when I engage this stage of wagon wheel restoration. Thanks for the info. 🇺🇸
My head hurts !! I figured out what you were talking about but never figured that until you mentioned it. If you don't mind, I think I'll let you get the rest of the figuring done and then I'll tune in to see how it really should be done. lol You're the master craftsman , wheelrite , and best overall wagon builder that I know of. Proud to know you Dave and Diane. Keep up the great work and videos and stay safe around there. Fred.
My Milwaukee M18 drill has an extra handle that you can attach so you can better handle the torque. I've used it in planting bulbs for my wife. It broke the auger so I had my son weld it back together.
Hello from Las Vegas Nevada
You are full of knowledge, thank you.
GOD BLESS YOU AND YOUR FAMILY
GOD BLESS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
I had to wait a week but this answers the question I had after the last instalment.
Proves even the most experienced person can still make errors but have the knowledge to identify them and formulate a plan to fix the issue and achieve their goal in the end. Well done sir
My family went to Gettysburg last year in late June. I found myself looking at the cannon and observing how the wheels were constructed. The ammo carriers that were attached to the cannon to make s "sort of" wagon. How they were joined together made it obvious that craftsmen who knew their art did the work.
Just as I'll look at a restomod muscle car to see how they've updated the front end, i find myself looking at buggies, wagons, carts to see how they are put together and noting things like the dish of the wheel (deeper for heavier vehicles) and the way the axles are aligned. I even noted a "Friday" wheel once.
Thank you, sir, for sharing your craft with us. I'll NEVER build a wagon wheel. But thanks to you I can appreciate those who do.
Dave, you're a wizard. This is geometry magic.
Greetings from Germany,
Marcus
Ok so you goofed , you caught it , and worked out how to fix it with a straight edge the right width and length . Ever impressive. Great video 👍🇬🇧
WOW that would cause my head to hurt. I am glad you can see it in your mind and figure out how to fix it before you wasted the spokes. That wheel is going to be massive
I was wondering at the time about this, then I finally thought that they drilled the hole in the fellies at an angle, then realized that the shoulder on the spoke would have to be beveled to hit the fellies, then decided that wouldn't be practical. Ultimately I realized that the felly hole would have to be drilled at an angle, and flat also cut in it perpendicular to the felly hole for the shoulder to ride on. I expect you are more right than me.
I went through the same thought process, and decided Dave's way was probably less work.
Then wondered if there's any difference in working strength.
Of course, that won't matter when you've been run over by those wheels, and squished. :)
You’ll live to tell, we’ll be here watching. Ours is the easy part :)
I seem to remember an old song by Rob Stewart that seems to apply, “The First Cut is Always the Deepest”. I’m always amazed at the degree of engineering involved in making things in the old days. Rocket science has nothing over this level of engineering.
Good catch on the tennons you have the patience of Jobe and I feel your pain with the drill as it happened to me also. Stay safe as well as Diane
Quite complex but explained very well. As l’m sure people have already said: you have to take your hat off to the generations that have gone before (too many haves, sorry).
I am a relative newcomer to your channel and am totally hooked, keep doing what you do.
All the best from Australia.
I have had the thought for many years that Dave is truly a national treasure and deserves recognition by the National Park Service. A follower/subscriber who is a Montana resident could start the ball rolling by contacting Montana Senator Testor's office in the State, introducing Dave's Yourtube channel to them and asking them to nominate him National Heritage Fellowship Award. His shop also should be nominated for the National Historic Register.
Dave I gotta say I wound up with a headache with all that figuring and all i was doing is following along. Good on you because I would have been pulling what hair I have left out.
thats an eye opener.I had never considred that the tenons were not in line with the spoke. Its a good thing we can still "read" analogue!
I bet your high school geometry teacher is quite proud. :)
I'm really glad I didn't have to figure that out...I probably would have created the world's first square wheel 😁 Kudos Dave.
A lot more to making wheels than one might imagine. Principle is the same but application varies the execution. Thanks for sharing.
Normally I am able to follow allow so I know exactly what you are thinking. This episode
you lost me, I will have to watch it again to try and catch-up. Your mind is amazing. Thanks.
Dave your not alone. I have several drills and impacts that have tried to break my arm. Great content as always.
I had a Milwaukee 1/2 drill break a meracarpal bone my hand when the bit grabbed in the work drill spun and twisted my hand around.
You hit a bump in the road with your geometry but it appears you have a correction worked out. Never was a doubt in my mind. I've seen you fix miscalculations like this in the past and it always works out quite well. I'm certain this will too. Thank you for sharing. Have a great day and stay safe.🙂🙂
Thank you Dave. Good video. Not too different from remembering that measurements for rafter lengths, angle cuts on rafters and compound cuts for hip/valley rafters are derived from relevant centrelines-in addition to outside edges. I have lost count of the number of times that I have had to cut pieces over length or sheets oversize, at the beginning of a carpentry task. This is an especially nervous stage when it is either impossible or impractical to make up a full template. Definitely a good time to leave my work and personal mobile phones at the other end of the house😊!
Thats one big Wheel Dave! can't wait to see the Wagon it goes on! Have a Grat Day!
What a great explanation of the tenon angles! I wish my Engineering professor did half as good a job! I'm anxyou will succeedou turn that wheel over, I'm sure you will succeed. Another terrific show Dave!
DAVE, SO Much Details! It amazes me the knowledge, math, geometry needed to properly assemble those wheels. As you showed the ends, one could see the tips to the fellows did not align perpendicular to each other. Your view of the angle made it apparent along with your explanations. I love when you realize there is an issue, you visually point it out and see if we see it too.
You have a very analytical mind. You seemingly are able to visualize what it needs to do and will it do it the way the parts are assembled. I would guess one of the many reasons products fail are the repairers limited knowledge or lack of understanding of why it is built the way they are. Shoddy repairs seem to be more damaging than the original mishap. I love your attention to details as it seems to impact the purpose of item being repaired.
These are wonderful videos that will be a great resource for someone looking for information on how to repair or rebuild this type of equipment if need be in the future. Your forward thinking has kept me subscribed and following on a subject I have never thought of and could be applied to many skills being lost in todays environment. With progress we lose many abilities of mans talents. Thanks for taking me along on another adventure. Keep up the Great work.
This video proves the value of continued learning. There is a reason why formal education rested heavily upon learn by doing.
Never stop learning!
*- I am super impressed with how you figured out a carpenter's "story pole" stick that would so easily work to act as a measuring jig for lining off the spokes, Dave*
*~ ~ ~ ~ ~*
*- Seeing the spokes be a few inches apart made me think the holes in the fellies would be drilled off center at opposing angles*
*- I assumed the fellies' holes would have a counter sunk shoulder leaning toward the outside to receive each square cut tenon shoulder.*
*- I imagined tapping on each felleo would draw them tight to the spokes, and would be hard to pull off, and Very strong.*
*- I could see that offset holes would prevent any cracking from happen along the center-line of each felleo and be a stronger engineering design.*
*- Then just before you explained the angling of the tenons, I could see that process would be easy and fast, and strong too, because no weak point would be introduced into the spokes, and the drilling of the fellies could be fast in a jig, and so much stronger too.*
*~ ~ ~ ~ ~*
*- I wonder if they tried that and experience taught them that not that does not work well for some reason and learned to do things the way you explained, with the kinked over tenon coming off the spoke at an angle...and that there is no weak-point introduced into the spoke doing it that way.*
*~ ~ ~ ~ ~*
*- If the spoke grow-ring orientation aligned to successfully "fight" the cupping they could never snap under sudden loading , and if the growth rings of each felleo were oriented flat/parallel to the road, they would never twist, warp, or split apart under any torsion stress ever put on them from the cupped spokes pushing from opposite directions while also coming together with massive loads smashing crash-bang over rocks or around curves. This truly is a Light weight design {as compared to the tonnage of Red Wood Timber they were designed to haul} yet Indestructible just because of Grain Orientation and force vectors inherent in cupped wheel designs. BRILLIANT ! ! !*
I knew with the greatest of confidence if there was a problem that you would point it out and share the resolution to it as well. Thank You so much for sharing this... Blessings👍🏁
I'm glad you developed a recovery plan for the error. It is a valuable lesson for me to learn to follow your lead when problem solving.
Thanks for saving history.
Amazing bit of analysis. Leaves me wondering about the jigs and machines that were in the logging-dolly-wheel factory 100+ years ago. Not that it was a high-volume factory.
At the end of last video i was left wondering how you were going to get the rim pieces on with the spokes at two different angles.Nice job Dave,leaving a little extra on the spokes made life a lot easier.
All the spokes go in at different angles anyway. There's enough flexibility in the wood to bend them as needed, though it might take a come-along to supply enough force.
I was thinking the same thing, really enjoyed Dave’s explanation and logic.
This project just keeps on giving!
wow, I too have had that sinking feeling when I've made a mistake the seems unrecoverable. thank the lord that you have the experience to allow you to fix the problem. very nice work!
Ouch them torque monsters are mean!! I'm a carpenter, but in my younger days I had a weekend gig delivering appliances so I brought my cordless drill to work to switch out fridge doors and take off doors in the way, etc... My young partner liked it so much he went out and bought the new 24V Dewalt drill, the day he came in with it he got pulled to go on another truck, I warned him to relax the torque setting a bit so he wouldn't hurt himself, being a 6'4" powerlifter he just smirked at me. That evening when we all got back to the barn, he had a black eye, he was changing out a fridge door and it torqued down and the drill spun and punched him right in the eye, and wrecked his wrist too. Them things ain't nothing to sneeze at, hope you heal up quickly Dave!!! I've gotten a few of those myself drilling out wood/steel flitch beams in the days before LVL's existed.
WOW Talk about a true craftsman to see the big picture and figure that out!
"bump in the road" - well okay Master Dave, but that was a heck of a landing there! Will be interested in learning just how you do your set up, so that you can cut those angled tenons. Hope it all goes well for you and your beat up arm!
I just watched a video on the “Hansen Wheel and Wagon Shop” channel. I gave them a straight C grade compared to your A+. You just can’t rush skill and perfection! Thanks for your skill and integrity, intensified by a touch of obsessive compulsion. ha!
Love your work, you are a master of your profession. This episode should be called "angles with Engels"
Oh boy! That’s some major patients and head scratching there! Very tricky!✌🏻❤️🇺🇸
I was worried about cutting those tenons last week. Glad to see there is a way to move the center so the base is still supported.
I was going to mention that to you when I saw you shave off the tenon end, that it may not point to the center of the hub, but I didn't. hahahahahahaha :>) You do such good work and it is good when you recognize errors and correct them..keep up the good work.
WHEW...Good catch, Dave. All that labor and all that expensive wood...you made a glove save over the centerfield wall!
Man there is so much to that, getting everything right. I look forward to you doing the tenons and getting it all matched up.
Don't always understand but it sure is a lot of fun watching anyhow. Thanks Dave!
Brilliant mathematician!
I worked on 13' aluminum props, approximately 1000 pounds. Hook a chain on itself and run the loop through the hub center. Stick a piece of black pipe through the chain loop and raise it slowly. We usually keep two people on the low side and push down against blades (spokes) at 5 & 7 O'clock positions to control the rate of swing. Since it's balanced and most of the mass is in the middle it should'nt kick too hard. I might wrap a chain around the base of any hoist casters to keep the hoist stationary. Lock down any bridge movement at the hoist anchor point. Thanks for the adventure and the honesty, with your experience it could be tempting to edit out the change in plan. You call it a miscalculation, that's a good word. I would'nt call it a mistake unless you replaced spokes, even then the customer would have never known.
It is rocket science! Amazing to watch.
Glad to see you caught yourself before the point of "start over"!
I've been enjoying/learning from your videos for a while now. Got a lot of answers to "Why the heck/HOW the heck did they do that?".
I liked the indexing mechanism you set up to mark all the tenons.