Absolutely superb conversation. I am South African yet emphatically Indian and Hindu, very much embedded in an African and Western world. Yet my identity and daily living is proudly Indian.
Absolutely a gem of a discussion . Please keep it up. Hope to see the Heathen in his Blindness, Cultures Differ Differently too some time in the future.
This is an excellent series with so many invaluable insights. Deepest gratitude to Ashish ji for putting out such nuanced conversations! Please keep doing more of such conversations! 🙏🏼
Great Discussion. Some Advice: 1. Add referral links to the products in the description, the channel can get a kickback at no extra cost to the buyer. 2. Consider having panels of other associates do these.
I think there is an error at 30:00 Their contention is not merely that "Hinduism is not a religion" but rather that an object called "Hinduism" does not exist. It may seem threatening to our identity at first, but does not need to be seen so.
The idea of religion has embedded into us so deeply, that we are ashamed if we were to admit that we do not have one. Now imagine if his theory that India has no religion is true. Then what object does "Hinduism" pick out? Nothing right? So if religion does not exist, then so does the entity called Hinduism. It is not sufficient to say "Hinduism is not a religion". Then I can ask, "then what is it". Then you are forced to say uninspiring things like, "Hinduism is a way of life etc." if Hinduism does not exist, then what entity binds as? There is a structure to Indian culture. It is just not "a religion". We do not need that concept to find structure in our culture@@emadassadi3136
When I search "upwards" on youtube then I can't find your channel even though I have subscribed to your channel. This has happened multiple times with me.
@@Himanshu_KhicharAristotle's duality between spirit and body, or between "God" and man, as processed by monotheists is what led to 2000 years of cultural war against pagans, slavery, genocide etc.
@@Himanshu_Khichar Plato put forth his theory of knowledge. And that makes quite a lot of sense. I am not able to counter that from a Hindu standpoint. Coming so far in 21st century, I guess we have lost some reasons about our numerous practices. It is a dillemma to continue doing it or put a stop in light of sensible and reasonable thing.
Interesting discussion. Please do a discussion on Gregory Clark's book "The Son also Rises". Also, Adarsh's point about Japan escaping coloniality before 1940s may not be correct. Read up on Japan's history from Meiji Restoration upto 1940s.
Thanks for erudite discussions. Are we really concerned about proving the Rama, Krishna, and others existence, or the great wisdom and eternal life giving principles that were distilled thru sages and rishis over thousands of years before Christ, Mohammad, and other great sons appeared on this soil? This so-called historical analysis/paralysis is for whom? To self inflict inferiority traits of this land for the pleasure of white guys who are ever happy to redicule and belittle us.
Why using the word god instead of bhagwan can lead to problems - e.g. if someone says I see bhagwan in the tree or in another person, that sounds correct. But if someone says don't chop the tree because I see God in it, then it becomes superstition. And in the colonized world, nobody is going to check whether the person making the statement is Indian and his concept of god is something else. If people want to avoid sounding superstitious they will learn the correct usage of god and ultimately leading to the extinction of the idea of bhagwan. This happens with other words as well. So using English words leads to 2 scenarios - keep using your concept and sound superstitious or get rid of your culture altogether.
21:50 It's not about influence of Protestant Christianity or anything, it's about using reason to ascertain what is truth. The context of the Arya Samaj criticism of the contradictions in the Puranas was that they they were debating Hindus who considered Puranas as a valid shastric authority. If they have internal contradiction, how can you even consider them as a valid source of authority? You have gone too deep with your perspective about seeing any criticism of Hindu rituals and beliefs as influenced by colonialism that you can even go to the extent of rejecting use of logic and reason as an influence of colonialism.😂😂
Q: How does Arya Samaj explain Ayyappa's naishthika brahmacharya in Sabarimala and him sitting with his consorts in other temples? A: By abusing the tradition of Ayyappa worship in the name of "ascertaining truth". Good luck with the fact-finding mission.
@@Upword I am strongly against abuse and ridicule of any Hindu sects' beliefs, I advocate polite and respectful discussions about differences in philosophy, but the discourse often gets ugly on social media platforms like X, you shouldn't generalize what you said to all Arya Samjis. My basic point was that just because there is criticism of some aspects of Hindu rituals and beliefs by Arya Samaj, it does not mean it is influenced by colonialism. There is an objective and universal logic that can be used to evaluate the reasonableness and morality of all religious practices and beliefs, and the Puranic Hindu beliefs and rituals don't pass its criterion in the same way Abrahamic faiths don't, according to Arya Samaj. You are basically reducing criticism of some aspects of Hinduism to influence of colonialism.
If this is your vision of itihasa, I would always prefer history over itihasa, I reject your theory of decolonisation. There is nothing "Christian" about the discipline of history, history was studied as a discipline even before Christianity came. Just because you want to seek a historical perspective about prevalent mythologies doesn't mean you are acting out of colonial influence, no, you just want to know the truth about the origin of these stories, and this isn't going to make these those mythologies less respectable in your eyes.
Ha, there is absolutely no certainly in 'history'.. so Hindus are bidden to forego their traditions and epics and Puranic narratives for something completely sterilized, a pale and distorted version, that we know for certain is western state propaganda and can't be separated from propaganda. Not just Jesus but even Alexander is in doubt for those who know the state of historiography. these are structural problem with the genre of history and balu has shown it's origin in Christian propaganda against heathens. But try to convince Indians that the ideologies that tried to erase them are not pure as snow white and you will be met with brickbats invective and venom. One thing that balu does not go into is the close relationship between history and prophecy, in what is in effect a rigged and motivated narrative. This makes history even more suspect.
Let me give you another critique that Balu has for the discipline of history. What is history and what do historians do? They try to give one of several explanations of the past viz. psychological, economic, anthropological, sociological or even scientific/technological while being experts in none of these fields. So what is a historian? Just someone who collects certain facts to embellish their personal pet theories.
It's a bit clearer if you see the discussion of ananda in Balu's paper, "What Do Indians Need, a History or the Past? A challenge or two to Indian historians, Parts I and II". Ananda is a kind of happiness that is independent of getting your wishes or not getting your wishes; in particular it is associated with remembering painful incidents in your life without reliving the pain. Itihasa teaches ananda by means of stories. History is not linked with the teaching of ananda---neither the Christian West nor the atheist West developed the concept of ananda.
Absolutely superb conversation. I am South African yet emphatically Indian and Hindu, very much embedded in an African and Western world. Yet my identity and daily living is proudly Indian.
Balu is far more important in the identity debate than he’s currently acknowledged.
Excellent work.please continue this series
Thanks, we will!
The level of discussion in Upword is always top notch providing a brief but clear introduction followed by going into the details.
Absolutely a gem of a discussion . Please keep it up. Hope to see the Heathen in his Blindness, Cultures Differ Differently too some time in the future.
Brilliant! Just brilliant discussion! Watched it twice & learned a lot of new (new to me) Dharmic vocabulary.
This is an excellent series with so many invaluable insights. Deepest gratitude to Ashish ji for putting out such nuanced conversations! Please keep doing more of such conversations! 🙏🏼
Excellent discussion. The questions are well framed and the response is also very well articulated.
Am sure Balu will be delighted.
Thank you for coming back Ashish bhaiya
Nay Science by Viswa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchi is another eye opener. Please have a discussion on that
Thanks upword for introducing this book to me.... I will attempt to read it
Currently halfway through the book. Will watch it once I finish the book.
Amazing as always.
Please consider a book discussion on Thomas Sowell's"The Vision of the Anointed".
Very rich discussion
Great Discussion. Some Advice:
1. Add referral links to the products in the description, the channel can get a kickback at no extra cost to the buyer.
2. Consider having panels of other associates do these.
Just amazing. You people should continue this series with different books. This is a gold mine discussion with amazing dextricity.
I think there is an error at 30:00
Their contention is not merely that "Hinduism is not a religion" but rather that an object called "Hinduism" does not exist. It may seem threatening to our identity at first, but does not need to be seen so.
Interesting point. Could you kindly elaborate more on this point of “himduism does not exist, yet it doesn’t threaten our identity?”
The idea of religion has embedded into us so deeply, that we are ashamed if we were to admit that we do not have one. Now imagine if his theory that India has no religion is true. Then what object does "Hinduism" pick out? Nothing right? So if religion does not exist, then so does the entity called Hinduism. It is not sufficient to say "Hinduism is not a religion". Then I can ask, "then what is it". Then you are forced to say uninspiring things like, "Hinduism is a way of life etc."
if Hinduism does not exist, then what entity binds as? There is a structure to Indian culture. It is just not "a religion". We do not need that concept to find structure in our culture@@emadassadi3136
When I search "upwards" on youtube then I can't find your channel even though I have subscribed to your channel. This has happened multiple times with me.
@praveenmohan was also facing similar issue. I suggest you watch his latest video.
Because the channel's name is not Upward, but "Upword".
Please continue this.
Greatful Thanks!
Kindly continue the Series!
Kindly bring out an Interview with Balu on line.
He is not be seen in recent times.
Thanks again!
awesome
Jai Sanaatan Dharma
जय श्री राम
Legend, what a surprise! Thank-you so much for this.
Glad you enjoyed it!
This is extremely rich content. I look forward to learn more. Because, I started reading `From Socrates to Sartre' , and Plato has ruined my mind.
Why though?
@@Himanshu_KhicharAristotle's duality between spirit and body, or between "God" and man, as processed by monotheists is what led to 2000 years of cultural war against pagans, slavery, genocide etc.
@@Himanshu_Khichar Plato put forth his theory of knowledge. And that makes quite a lot of sense. I am not able to counter that from a Hindu standpoint.
Coming so far in 21st century, I guess we have lost some reasons about our numerous practices. It is a dillemma to continue doing it or put a stop in light of sensible and reasonable thing.
Interesting discussion. Please do a discussion on Gregory Clark's book "The Son also Rises". Also, Adarsh's point about Japan escaping coloniality before 1940s may not be correct. Read up on Japan's history from Meiji Restoration upto 1940s.
The pagans were not “too much into ritual worship” ! The pagans had tradition like we do. That’s it. Only religions have worship.
Sir , how will I avail Kashi documentery made by your team ?
U guys clearly did not read ! Balu does not give a definition of religion. He builds a theory about it. They are two very different things.
If being an Indian means anything else than being a part of the Hindu civilizational continuum than there is left not much point to the debate.
OTOH, sun DOES revolve around the earth. Physics works on (inertial) frame of reference.
Agastya ka second episode upload kardo please. Its been 5 months now.
Thanks for erudite discussions. Are we really concerned about proving the Rama, Krishna, and others existence, or the great wisdom and eternal life giving principles that were distilled thru sages and rishis over thousands of years before Christ, Mohammad, and other great sons appeared on this soil? This so-called historical analysis/paralysis is for whom? To self inflict inferiority traits of this land for the pleasure of white guys who are ever happy to redicule and belittle us.
Why using the word god instead of bhagwan can lead to problems - e.g. if someone says I see bhagwan in the tree or in another person, that sounds correct. But if someone says don't chop the tree because I see God in it, then it becomes superstition. And in the colonized world, nobody is going to check whether the person making the statement is Indian and his concept of god is something else. If people want to avoid sounding superstitious they will learn the correct usage of god and ultimately leading to the extinction of the idea of bhagwan.
This happens with other words as well. So using English words leads to 2 scenarios - keep using your concept and sound superstitious or get rid of your culture altogether.
21:50 It's not about influence of Protestant Christianity or anything, it's about using reason to ascertain what is truth. The context of the Arya Samaj criticism of the contradictions in the Puranas was that they they were debating Hindus who considered Puranas as a valid shastric authority. If they have internal contradiction, how can you even consider them as a valid source of authority?
You have gone too deep with your perspective about seeing any criticism of Hindu rituals and beliefs as influenced by colonialism that you can even go to the extent of rejecting use of logic and reason as an influence of colonialism.😂😂
Q: How does Arya Samaj explain Ayyappa's naishthika brahmacharya in Sabarimala and him sitting with his consorts in other temples?
A: By abusing the tradition of Ayyappa worship in the name of "ascertaining truth".
Good luck with the fact-finding mission.
@@Upword I am strongly against abuse and ridicule of any Hindu sects' beliefs, I advocate polite and respectful discussions about differences in philosophy, but the discourse often gets ugly on social media platforms like X, you shouldn't generalize what you said to all Arya Samjis.
My basic point was that just because there is criticism of some aspects of Hindu rituals and beliefs by Arya Samaj, it does not mean it is influenced by colonialism. There is an objective and universal logic that can be used to evaluate the reasonableness and morality of all religious practices and beliefs, and the Puranic Hindu beliefs and rituals don't pass its criterion in the same way Abrahamic faiths don't, according to Arya Samaj. You are basically reducing criticism of some aspects of Hinduism to influence of colonialism.
@@Himanshu_Khichar Arya Samaj is not a legitimate sampradaya. Discussion ends.
@@Upword Saying this won't stop their influence, nor do they care about your certification...you are just cowardly backing away from debate.
@@Himanshu_Khichar Their influence is limited to giving out their 'temples' for weddings and random events. We can live with that influence.
If this is your vision of itihasa, I would always prefer history over itihasa, I reject your theory of decolonisation. There is nothing "Christian" about the discipline of history, history was studied as a discipline even before Christianity came. Just because you want to seek a historical perspective about prevalent mythologies doesn't mean you are acting out of colonial influence, no, you just want to know the truth about the origin of these stories, and this isn't going to make these those mythologies less respectable in your eyes.
Ha, there is absolutely no certainly in 'history'..
so Hindus are bidden to forego their traditions and epics and Puranic narratives for something completely sterilized, a pale and distorted version, that we know for certain is western state propaganda and can't be separated from propaganda. Not just Jesus but even Alexander is in doubt for those who know the state of historiography. these are structural problem with the genre of history and balu has shown it's origin in Christian propaganda against heathens. But try to convince Indians that the ideologies that tried to erase them are not pure as snow white and you will be met with brickbats invective and venom.
One thing that balu does not go into is the close relationship between history and prophecy, in what is in effect a rigged and motivated narrative. This makes history even more suspect.
Let me give you another critique that Balu has for the discipline of history. What is history and what do historians do? They try to give one of several explanations of the past viz. psychological, economic, anthropological, sociological or even scientific/technological while being experts in none of these fields. So what is a historian? Just someone who collects certain facts to embellish their personal pet theories.
It's a bit clearer if you see the discussion of ananda in Balu's paper, "What Do Indians Need, a History or the Past? A challenge or two to Indian historians, Parts I and II". Ananda is a kind of happiness that is independent of getting your wishes or not getting your wishes; in particular it is associated with remembering painful incidents in your life without reliving the pain. Itihasa teaches ananda by means of stories. History is not linked with the teaching of ananda---neither the Christian West nor the atheist West developed the concept of ananda.