Huge thanks to The Magnet Baron for making this video possible! 🧲Check them out at -> themagnetbaron.com/ UPDATE 9/7/23 - Towering no longer entirely ignores ruin visibility; instead they only use TLOS for ruins that the Towering unit is within (base contact essentially).
Very useful video, thanks. Personally I really don't like the whole "Oh look, my gun is behind this wall, therefore I have partial cover" thing. It feels very cheaty to me. One question though, at 25:00, what is the weird, barely visible moving object that comes in from the top right corner of the screen, wiggles around a bit and then exits the screen to the centre left? Editing artifact? edit: mixed up left and right, doh!
RAW because they dont specify the base size if a model, it is possible to park a flying vehicle with an old flying base on a ruin and be immune to assault while also benefiting from plunging fire.
Adriaan's edits 1. Benefits of Cover: The model being allocated a wound can claim the benefits of cover if it is either partially or wholly obscured from every model in the attacking unit by a piece of terrain with this keyword 2. Flying over terrain: just revert back to 9th.. why make it so much more complicated.. else if they really think that Fly needs nurf then just impose a -2 inch penalty over unbreachable terrain... that would be a simplified nurf
Great video, thanks for sharing. GW has ported over a lot of the Kill Team 2nd edition rules into 10th. While it feels a lot of them work because KT 2nd was a great revamp, the visibility rules definitely don't come over as easily. I agree, much preferred 9th on this one.
thank you for explaining ruins to me! i just got back from a local beginner 40k intro event, and our gm said that you just cant see through ruin walls(even with windows) period. i was highly sceptical, but the rules are really confusing in the rulebook atm, so i coudnt argue. but having taken a second(proper) look at the rules and watched your vid, im now 100% certain i was scammed. still was a great time tho so not mad. ps great vid overall
I feel like units that have a lot of low AP ranged weapons will like to be on top of ruins as much as possible. It will give them the AP boost they need. Inceptors will really like the extra AP to their Assault Bolters, to have each model have 3 shots at Str 5, AP -2, 1 Damage twin linked. Another unit would be Suppressors, They would give them just the right amount of AP to be able to get a Terminator to save on a 4+ and if they fail the save, will kill them. The best unit that would benefit from plunging fire for the Space Marines would be the Desolation squad. Any model that is above 6 inches would have for their Castellan launcher would have D3 shots at Str 4, AP -1, 1 damage, which would give them the punch they need to hurt other +3 save units, since they ignore both cover and indirect penalties if they stay still. A unit I am also interested in would be the Tau's Crisis Battle Suits. Their Burst Cannons would be given -1 AP if they are top of the ruin, allowing them to more easily get through +3 save models.
@@Irongrip09 I don't play the game, but I watch a lot of videos and theories about it. I don't know the base size of the inceptors and suppressor. I did forget about bases of the model not hanging over the edges of the ruins. That would definitely affect the viability of using the ruins to boost the AP of those units and all the other units as well, especially the Tau Crisis Battle Suits.
@@KnightManCross yea for sure, unfortunately most terrain of the variety that has shelves of over 6 inches have enough room to maybe fit space marines on and that's it
remember the ruin line of sight rule. all models need to be wholly inside the ruin or the unit only counts as inside the ruin not wholly inside the ruin.
As per the commentary for the rules, with regards to ruins that is incorrect. All models must be wholly within a ruins for a unit to be classed as wholly within, not individual models " Four models in this unit are wholly within the ruin, and one model is only within the ruin. The unit is therefore within the ruin, but not wholly within it"
@nemesisghost Incorrect. That page only explains the difference between being wholly within per unit/model, not the rules for Ruins themselves. The rules for Ruins in the Rules Commentary even says "Model" not unit, as it does in the core rules. "Per model".
@nemesisghost the diagram is pretty weird it's true - it demonstrates when units are wholly within an area, but the requirement to see through a ruin are per model (see the core rules), not per unit. A unit being wholly within CAN see out of a ruin, just the same as a model that is wholly within it.
Ah ok thanks guys. Even though they tried to simplify it, and I thought I understood, the diagrams explanation makes me think otherwise! Appreciate the replies thankyou
Thanks for the video If GW just did one thing it would fix alot of the true line of sight things of tips of guns seeing around corners seeing a tip of a wing. Just like scenery has a footprint that makes and imaginary line vertically. Just make it that a model base is a footprint and you measurements for line of sight are determined from the base to the enemy base.. So if the attackers whole base can draw Los to the whole base of an enemy modle, then no cover. If that footprint of that base is obscured by scenery that = cover. That means your lascannon example would have 1 outcome always, not 3 - 5 different outcomes depending on models facing, etc.
I personally feel like Heroscape had it right. Though kit bashing makes their method much harder to apply to 40k. They gave an image of the model with the point of LoS highlighted and color coding for what doesn't count as targetable, ie weapons wings etc
I hate true line of sight just for the simple fact that it takes 40 minutes to explain it. Terrain has footprints. It should be as simple as "is the models base in the footprint of a terrain feature? if yes give it cover". It should take 3 seconds to explain and learn.
“Can all of your shooting models see all of the target models? If not, then the target has cover.” With a small minor additions, it’s pretty much just that.
Yep, True line of sight is cancer, they need to move back to abstract for terrain. I really haven't played a huge amount since 5th edition, and the fact that it took 40 minutes to explain what should take 5 is very telling. Also, models should be cylinders over there base up to the height of the model, ignoring banners and such, to stop drawing line of sight from over hanging lasgun barrels or over things via an aerial. Abstraction is not a bad thing, in fact it improves the rules, makes them simpler and cleaner.
@@Scuzzlebutt142 agreed; this is very off-putting having to think about shooting tips of giant wings and crap. It's so incredibly technical. Like 90% of the demons body is RIGHT THERE. But his tippy tip of a wing is behind a building. Incredibly unrealistic.
It's baffling that all measurements in the game are made from the models base except this one incredibly idiotic and asinine rule. Why is it that GW has to constantly pick one rule from each section and make it the most convoluted and/or contradictory part of the whole section? (Looking at you Deep Strike/Reserves/Strategic Reserves). Its almost like its baked into their genetic code.
@@Scuzzlebutt142how is abstraction simpler than "can you draw a line between any part of your model and mine"? It seems like terrain rules are your problem and not true line of sight
Are weapons not shot individually? So for example at 18:07 wouldnt the Nid gain cover from the plasma but not the bolters since they are a different weapon profile? Sorry its been a minute and im jumping back into 10th.
I dont understand how if one marine is partial obscured line of sight firing at a monster/unit, that the rest of the squad counts as being obscured visibility when attacking even though the rest of the squad has clear sight (surely youd separate the shots?), whereas the monster attacks the unit and only one model gets cover, just doesnt make sense.
I feel like the woods ruling may have been an oversight. What makes sense to me is to drop the partial visibility part. It just provides cover if you are firing through, except for aircraft and towering. Of course, RAW is not this case.
I wish your example around 18:30 also had one space marine completely behind the wall (not visible at all to the monster). How does that work in both cases: (1) Marines attacking and (2) monster attacking. I believe, when the marines are attacking, that model with no LOS would not be able to shoot at all? and on the other side with the monster attacking, it's the same as you describe? (the defending space marine player can choose to allocate wounds to that model first, with the benefit of cover?)
I think I'm just going to play most of my games with fully opaque ruins, lol. I'll plug up the windows and doors so infantry can hide right behind walls before jumping out. I think infantry could use the advantage as well, since vehicles/monsters are looking so strong at the outset of the edition.
I heard of a tournament ruling that GROUND level of ruins would obscure LOS but the upper levels do not. I think that makes it more interesting and aestetically fits the way most ruins looks
A question I had that came up in a battle was, Does your own units provide cover for the enemies units? here is an example of how this came up, I had line of site but could not see the enemy unit wholly because I hade a vehicle between my shooting unit into the enemy. So I declared and proceeded with my shooting phase, my enemy stated he has cover due to another unit vehicle was blocking some of his unit.
They really need to do base to base LOS like from DUST Warfare, its much cleaner and less subjective, either your model can draw a line to the target models base or it can't.
Hey question on the example of the plasma gunner and exocrine. If the plasma gunner was in terrain but shooting through a window and could see the whole exocrine model would he still get cover?
the Tesseract Vault is a huge model! if I can set the base on a top level of a building or ruin and the base does not overhang even tho the hull does is this legal? would it benefit from "plunging fire"(is this an additional effect of the ruin)? if the base is over 6" or the model? would it receive the benefit of cover as well?
Every single game I have played starts with "so we going to play fly like 9th right? Yea that's cool. Ok cool" Also "and we ignoring the can't stand on objectives thing? Yep. Ok cool"
GW: Cover: Each time a ranged attack is allocated to a model... Me: But attacks are allocated to a unit, and that units controlling player selects the model that takes the wound. So who determines if cover is taken if 2 models have cover and 2 don't?
@@rancorusia It was the same in 9. Typically hit assignation is based on cover potential but also to maintain unit coherency. This is how you can sometime force your opponent to assign hits to the front or back units
thank you for silencing the magnet baron humongous noise I lost count of how many times I stopped watching a craftworld eldar video because it honestly hurt my ears
really good video, one thing i think you totally forgot to cover, and which I cannot find the answer to in the rulebook, is unit to unit, thinking here of a unit of 10 models shooting against a unit of 10 models, where half of the unit is in cover, how does this work?, If half the unit is in the open, but the other half is in cover, what happens?
Thanks again for this! If possible, would be really cool if you could make a video about vehicle (hull) movement. Like can tanks move sideways, how does turning go etc.
Wait situation on 32:30 only works IF ruin have windows? If it was ruin that was completely closed, aka if there's no line of sight at all, marines wouldn't be able to shoot Exocrine?
Because deciding what 50% of Angron happens to be is a very difficult question, while discerning whether a wing tip is hidden or nor is a much easier one.
@@jorgemontero6384 fair point but hear me out: back in the days, when there was a debate on whether a model is 50% obscured or not we just rolled a dice, 1-3 it's in cover, 4-6 it's not. Or if we were at a tourney we just called for an org. to judge and decide.
One thing I don’t understand about flying movement-the picture GW provides seems to be wrong? The base seems the phase through the crate’s corner? Did they forget to add another 1-2” to move the base totally off the terrain?
If you are an aircraft in Hover mode, you are simply a tank with the fly keyword and then the LOS rules work just like any other non-aircraft/non-towering model. Hover makes you lose ALL aircraft keywords.
If both units are not within the Ruin and half of your unit's line of sight is blocked off by the ruin, can you still shoot with the remainder of your unit? Or does your whole unit not get to shoot?
sometimes, partial cover realy is stupid. at our table, we ruled, that: 1: you have to draw los to the actual model. raised weapons dont count as a target and putting your gun behind a wall doesn't grant you cover 2: at least 1/4 of the model has to be behind cover. your toe behind some rubble doesn't grant cover. just as that grass tuft on the edge of the base behind cover doesn't give you cover this makes it more real and less gamy/stupid
I’m assuming some aspects of this video have been overcome by the clarifications on ruins? Eg the land raider “toe in” to the ruins cannot target the marines?
If I have 5 models in a unit, 2 have line of sight and 3 don't have line of sight, do I only role for the 2 that do? (Collected and painted for years but only just starting to play)
If I have a unit of let's say 5 intercessors, and 3 of them are completely open and 2 are completely behind a wall, and I then target an enemy unit in the open with these then a) can all of them or just the 3 that have line of sight shoot? b) if only 3 then does the enemy unit get cover even when my two guys who didn't shoot were the only ones without full visibility
@20:21 Question. my 5 model unit blasts another 5 model unit. 1 enemy model is behind cover. Lets say I hit 4 times. 1dmg to 1 wound models. When opponent allocate saves to the model behind cover, should he roll 1 save at a time? Because how I understand this, when that model dies and opponent must allocate next model, they now have no benefit of cover? I thought since all attacks/shots happen at the same time, the attacking unit will be affected generally by the opponent unit having benefit of cover? That it is not "lost" even if that one model is killed.
If you can draw line if sight from any part of the model, is there a mandatory height limit to models/scenic bases etc...? What's to stop someone RAW putting a long aerial coming out of each unit that gets unobstructed LOS to any unit?
@@TacticalTortoise We run with a house rule that ignores stuff like aerials swords in dramatic poses and use basically a cylinder up from the base. No modeled for advantage aerials because they don't have eyes, Players shouldn't be penalized because their models are in dynamic poses, instead of in tactical poses. If you could only kill the models that can be seen by the firing unit it wouldn't be a big deal, but losing an entire unit because of model design and you can see the bayonet on one model doesn't seem fair.
Well, if your model is modified such that it can see over cover, enemy units can shoot it back. Line of sight always goes both ways! (Also your opponent might throttle you)
@@Dorsidwarf They could also decide playing you isn't worth the headache and don't play you again, you could end up with a short list of opponents that play the exact same way you do.
In the rule book it explains the types of visibility but only references terrain features as granting a cover save, no where can I see that models blocking visibility give a cover save, only "terrain features". Am I missing something?
Wait, so if your unit is receiving an attack and all models are fully visible except one model in the unit, only partially visible from the attacker, thus gaining cover, you could allocate all of the incoming attacks to that one model behind cover before having to go through your models that are fully visible? Essentially if one model out of a unit of ten is in cover, the whole unit gets cover?
Saves are always rolled sequentially; so you can allocate attacks to the model in cover until that model dies, then you have to roll saves on the out-of-cover models.
@@TacticalTortoise I see. I imagine models that are not visible at all cannot have attacks allocated to them, nor can they attack themselves if they dont have visibility on any enemy models?
What is that diagram from for the 10:00 mark? I don't see it in the core rules which could lead to confusion regarding players thinking you can only move diagonnally if you start or end your fly movement on terrain. There's nothing in the core PDF that says you can go diagonally during the middle of movement.
The people I normally play with house rule that you have to see the core of the model, meaning the directly over the base, we do not count Spikes, gun barrels, hair on top of helmets, etc. GW has models in dramatic poses or with extra bits that stick out, swords raised over heads etc. You also can't draw line of sight from those parts sticking out. For Ruins and forests, because you have to have room to place models you can't build them with all the debris, trees, undergrowth they would have, that is why the foot print counts for cover. GW does well on some parts taking in to account that it is a game and terrain can't be built like it would be in real life because you have to place models, but fails when using True LoS with dynamically posed models and not taking in to account they would be positioning weapons and bits so you couldn't see them if they were trying to hide behind cover.
Thanks fo a great vid! One thing is bothering me: are enemy models from enemy unit blocking line of sight to models from other enemy unit that is behind them? Or are the first unit granting this second one benefit of cover because its not wholly visible?
Units don't grant cover unless they have a special rule saying they do - and LOS is always drawn from true line of sight for them (so it's almost impossible for a model to block LOS to another model).
I know it's been 2 months but I've always seen it as the attacking models have to have line of sight so no he can't shoot even though the others can see. However if you can see one model in a unit you can attack the whole unit as long as you're full unit can all see that one model
@TacticalTortoise How does visibility with ruins work if you have a model with something like wings hanging inside the terrain feature but the base is wholy outside of its footprint, and a unit is shooting from the opposite side? Is it an eligibke target or does this prevent the shooting unit from targeting it? Thx for the answer already! 😊
Just wanted to ask at 17:48 does that mean the whole unit can claim cover but damage should be assigned first to the model that is behind cover? And if that model behind cover dies, you just minus the save roll you did on the rest of the model or you reroll saves without cover?
If your unit A is wholly within ruins and you're shooting at a unit B standing out in the open but some models can only partially see them, say half base, due to the build of the ruin and/or limited window size. Would unit B receive cover bonus?
Yes, the cover applied by Ruins doesn't care what so ever about the position of the shooting unit. I think this Editions will see a lot of importance on the actual models, as having long guns you can use to reach over edges, through windows, or hide their tip behind walls will make for some weird rulings.
I’m sad they got rid of dense cover and difficult ground. Also, big non-flying tanks can move up on top of non-ruin buildings and “over” two inch defense barriers. Mehhh
![Captain Morgane and the Golden Turtle - [04] - [Chapter 4] - English Walkthrough - No Commentary](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/FBB_Rvbj940/mqdefault.jpg)
Huge thanks to The Magnet Baron for making this video possible! 🧲Check them out at -> themagnetbaron.com/
UPDATE 9/7/23 - Towering no longer entirely ignores ruin visibility; instead they only use TLOS for ruins that the Towering unit is within (base contact essentially).
Very useful video, thanks. Personally I really don't like the whole "Oh look, my gun is behind this wall, therefore I have partial cover" thing. It feels very cheaty to me.
One question though, at 25:00, what is the weird, barely visible moving object that comes in from the top right corner of the screen, wiggles around a bit and then exits the screen to the centre left? Editing artifact?
edit: mixed up left and right, doh!
@@juddery fuzz from my longhair cat xD
@@TacticalTortoise Lol, ah, so nothing spectral then. 🤣
I like the new terrain rules, they're easier to understand. Basically everything gets a +1 save to cover unless you're completely out in the open.
Yeah! We don't need to worry about hit role modfiers AND save modifiers AND movement modifiers
@@samuelconder3463 So my barbed wire does not hamper movement anymore?
@@CTimmerman not if anything moves thru it no :(
thanks for laying it out so clearly and concisely with visual aids, i went from understanding terrain 75% of the way to being an expert
:)
A video on Cover vs True Line of Sight and how hostile and friendly models can affect (or not) each would be helpful
Thank you, this is very helpful to new player. (I started 40k late in 9th and barely grasped cover then...) This is a really helpful guide.
Welcome to the game! Glad it helped :P
This is my first edition so this video is legit saving my butt , ty 😅
Welcome to the game! :)
THANK YOU for demostrating via Tabletop Simulator! It helps so much
This was really well done, good editing and good information. Thank you! ♥
the new flying rule should save us all some time and read "Monsters with fly cannot move over buildings"
Agreed with so many of the positive comments. So nice, we watch this twice or tres.
RAW because they dont specify the base size if a model, it is possible to park a flying vehicle with an old flying base on a ruin and be immune to assault while also benefiting from plunging fire.
putting all my flying vehicles on 25mm bases brb
@@magicalawnmower4764 Only the old models that came packaged with it can use them, if the model is after 2016 or so, they wont have them.
Always RAI, RAW is some rules lawyer BS
Adriaan's edits
1. Benefits of Cover: The model being allocated a wound can claim the benefits of cover if it is either partially or wholly obscured from every model in the attacking unit by a piece of terrain with this keyword
2. Flying over terrain: just revert back to 9th.. why make it so much more complicated.. else if they really think that Fly needs nurf then just impose a -2 inch penalty over unbreachable terrain... that would be a simplified nurf
Great video, thanks for sharing. GW has ported over a lot of the Kill Team 2nd edition rules into 10th. While it feels a lot of them work because KT 2nd was a great revamp, the visibility rules definitely don't come over as easily. I agree, much preferred 9th on this one.
great video, will probably watch it a few times. loved seeing the examples. hope you can similarly cover any other tricky rules that come up
:)
The TTS examples really help, thanks
I’m loving the new rules for the most part. Easy to understand and show examples while playing.
thank you for explaining ruins to me! i just got back from a local beginner 40k intro event, and our gm said that you just cant see through ruin walls(even with windows) period. i was highly sceptical, but the rules are really confusing in the rulebook atm, so i coudnt argue. but having taken a second(proper) look at the rules and watched your vid, im now 100% certain i was scammed. still was a great time tho so not mad.
ps great vid overall
I feel like units that have a lot of low AP ranged weapons will like to be on top of ruins as much as possible. It will give them the AP boost they need. Inceptors will really like the extra AP to their Assault Bolters, to have each model have 3 shots at Str 5, AP -2, 1 Damage twin linked. Another unit would be Suppressors, They would give them just the right amount of AP to be able to get a Terminator to save on a 4+ and if they fail the save, will kill them. The best unit that would benefit from plunging fire for the Space Marines would be the Desolation squad. Any model that is above 6 inches would have for their Castellan launcher would have D3 shots at Str 4, AP -1, 1 damage, which would give them the punch they need to hurt other +3 save units, since they ignore both cover and indirect penalties if they stay still.
A unit I am also interested in would be the Tau's Crisis Battle Suits. Their Burst Cannons would be given -1 AP if they are top of the ruin, allowing them to more easily get through +3 save models.
If the base fits on wholly without hanging over a single mm. Which most seem to only fit 32mm at most
@@Irongrip09 I don't play the game, but I watch a lot of videos and theories about it. I don't know the base size of the inceptors and suppressor. I did forget about bases of the model not hanging over the edges of the ruins. That would definitely affect the viability of using the ruins to boost the AP of those units and all the other units as well, especially the Tau Crisis Battle Suits.
@@KnightManCross yea for sure, unfortunately most terrain of the variety that has shelves of over 6 inches have enough room to maybe fit space marines on and that's it
@@Irongrip09 that is too bad for larger models... I hope they modify the rule so that models that have a larger bases can benefit from that rule.
Wow that is very helpful... i will use this as a reference to our game...
Great video, especially liked all the little tabletop simulator examples you showed, really helps a ton.
remember the ruin line of sight rule.
all models need to be wholly inside the ruin or the unit only counts as inside the ruin not wholly inside the ruin.
Visibility and whether a model is wholly within an area or measurement is determined on a per-model basis
As per the commentary for the rules, with regards to ruins that is incorrect. All models must be wholly within a ruins for a unit to be classed as wholly within, not individual models
" Four models in this unit are wholly
within the ruin, and one model is only
within the ruin. The unit is therefore within
the ruin, but not wholly within it"
@nemesisghost Incorrect. That page only explains the difference between being wholly within per unit/model, not the rules for Ruins themselves. The rules for Ruins in the Rules Commentary even says "Model" not unit, as it does in the core rules. "Per model".
@nemesisghost the diagram is pretty weird it's true - it demonstrates when units are wholly within an area, but the requirement to see through a ruin are per model (see the core rules), not per unit. A unit being wholly within CAN see out of a ruin, just the same as a model that is wholly within it.
Ah ok thanks guys. Even though they tried to simplify it, and I thought I understood, the diagrams explanation makes me think otherwise! Appreciate the replies thankyou
This video is gold. Great talent explaining complicated stuff.
comments for the TH-cam algorithm! ! ! TH-cam cares not from where the comments come, only that we comment!
Thanks for the video
If GW just did one thing it would fix alot of the true line of sight things of tips of guns seeing around corners seeing a tip of a wing.
Just like scenery has a footprint that makes and imaginary line vertically.
Just make it that a model base is a footprint and you measurements for line of sight are determined from the base to the enemy base..
So if the attackers whole base can draw Los to the whole base of an enemy modle, then no cover.
If that footprint of that base is obscured by scenery that = cover.
That means your lascannon example would have 1 outcome always, not 3 - 5 different outcomes depending on models facing, etc.
I personally feel like Heroscape had it right. Though kit bashing makes their method much harder to apply to 40k. They gave an image of the model with the point of LoS highlighted and color coding for what doesn't count as targetable, ie weapons wings etc
I miss the 25% hidden to claim cover rule from generations past...
Was kinda hard to rule though
Out of all the Tabletop games Ive played, Ive never seen a game with a Fly rule like this, same with LoS....
GW tends to be a few decades behind the industry xD
super helpful coming back to the game after a long time! fantastic breakdown
Thank you so much for this video! I wanted to play knights but found the visibility rules daunting. Your explanation here of towering is wonderful!
I’m super curious about what kind of house rules we can look forward to for major tournament play/ITC rulings.
I hate true line of sight just for the simple fact that it takes 40 minutes to explain it. Terrain has footprints. It should be as simple as "is the models base in the footprint of a terrain feature? if yes give it cover". It should take 3 seconds to explain and learn.
“Can all of your shooting models see all of the target models? If not, then the target has cover.” With a small minor additions, it’s pretty much just that.
Yep, True line of sight is cancer, they need to move back to abstract for terrain. I really haven't played a huge amount since 5th edition, and the fact that it took 40 minutes to explain what should take 5 is very telling.
Also, models should be cylinders over there base up to the height of the model, ignoring banners and such, to stop drawing line of sight from over hanging lasgun barrels or over things via an aerial.
Abstraction is not a bad thing, in fact it improves the rules, makes them simpler and cleaner.
@@Scuzzlebutt142 agreed; this is very off-putting having to think about shooting tips of giant wings and crap. It's so incredibly technical. Like 90% of the demons body is RIGHT THERE. But his tippy tip of a wing is behind a building. Incredibly unrealistic.
It's baffling that all measurements in the game are made from the models base except this one incredibly idiotic and asinine rule. Why is it that GW has to constantly pick one rule from each section and make it the most convoluted and/or contradictory part of the whole section? (Looking at you Deep Strike/Reserves/Strategic Reserves). Its almost like its baked into their genetic code.
@@Scuzzlebutt142how is abstraction simpler than "can you draw a line between any part of your model and mine"?
It seems like terrain rules are your problem and not true line of sight
The fly move measurement is ridiculous.
As a Tau player I'm very much not a fan
AND (for tyranids) they slowed down all the fliers on their data sheets too for distance
Its dumb
Hate it
100% ridiculous. I played my first game with daemons last weekend, and trying to fit a measuring tape diagonally around terrain was awful.
Are weapons not shot individually? So for example at 18:07 wouldnt the Nid gain cover from the plasma but not the bolters since they are a different weapon profile? Sorry its been a minute and im jumping back into 10th.
I dont understand how if one marine is partial obscured line of sight firing at a monster/unit, that the rest of the squad counts as being obscured visibility when attacking even though the rest of the squad has clear sight (surely youd separate the shots?), whereas the monster attacks the unit and only one model gets cover, just doesnt make sense.
Thanks for this video, it's really clear now.
I feel like the woods ruling may have been an oversight. What makes sense to me is to drop the partial visibility part. It just provides cover if you are firing through, except for aircraft and towering.
Of course, RAW is not this case.
I now have a headache.
Thanks. ❤
Just to clarify if you were playing at an event and first floor windows were blocked the knight can’t see him correct? 36:46
I wish your example around 18:30 also had one space marine completely behind the wall (not visible at all to the monster). How does that work in both cases: (1) Marines attacking and (2) monster attacking.
I believe, when the marines are attacking, that model with no LOS would not be able to shoot at all? and on the other side with the monster attacking, it's the same as you describe? (the defending space marine player can choose to allocate wounds to that model first, with the benefit of cover?)
Great video. Really helped my group of newbies out.
I’m sure you’re doing a great job explaining this and it’s just me being dim but I’m still totally confused!
I think I'm just going to play most of my games with fully opaque ruins, lol. I'll plug up the windows and doors so infantry can hide right behind walls before jumping out. I think infantry could use the advantage as well, since vehicles/monsters are looking so strong at the outset of the edition.
I heard of a tournament ruling that GROUND level of ruins would obscure LOS but the upper levels do not. I think that makes it more interesting and aestetically fits the way most ruins looks
A question I had that came up in a battle was, Does your own units provide cover for the enemies units? here is an example of how this came up, I had line of site but could not see the enemy unit wholly because I hade a vehicle between my shooting unit into the enemy. So I declared and proceeded with my shooting phase, my enemy stated he has cover due to another unit vehicle was blocking some of his unit.
No; units don't provide cover unless they have a special ability that states they do (like Baneblades or some foritifcations).
It's a lot but reading it by myself vs listening is a lot worse so tyvm for the great video
:)
They really need to do base to base LOS like from DUST Warfare, its much cleaner and less subjective, either your model can draw a line to the target models base or it can't.
great guide, thanks a lot!
Hey question on the example of the plasma gunner and exocrine. If the plasma gunner was in terrain but shooting through a window and could see the whole exocrine model would he still get cover?
the Tesseract Vault is a huge model! if I can set the base on a top level of a building or ruin and the base does not overhang even tho the hull does is this legal? would it benefit from "plunging fire"(is this an additional effect of the ruin)? if the base is over 6" or the model? would it receive the benefit of cover as well?
Cheers mate, this actually helped a tonne
I'm going to tell you now that the vast majority of casual players are going to ignore the fly rules
Every single game I have played starts with "so we going to play fly like 9th right? Yea that's cool. Ok cool"
Also "and we ignoring the can't stand on objectives thing? Yep. Ok cool"
GW: Cover: Each time a ranged attack is allocated to a model...
Me: But attacks are allocated to a unit, and that units controlling player selects the model that takes the wound. So who determines if cover is taken if 2 models have cover and 2 don't?
Attacks are allocated at the saving throw step by the defender's controller - so you can choose to assign the saves to models in cover if you want
for the most part, 10th seems to favor the defender
@@rancorusia It was the same in 9. Typically hit assignation is based on cover potential but also to maintain unit coherency. This is how you can sometime force your opponent to assign hits to the front or back units
thank you for silencing the magnet baron humongous noise
I lost count of how many times I stopped watching a craftworld eldar video because it honestly hurt my ears
really good video, one thing i think you totally forgot to cover, and which I cannot find the answer to in the rulebook, is unit to unit, thinking here of a unit of 10 models shooting against a unit of 10 models, where half of the unit is in cover, how does this work?, If half the unit is in the open, but the other half is in cover, what happens?
You take saving throws on a per model basis with the ones in cover until they all die.
Clear as mud. Lol
Very helpful and well done video!
Thanks again for this! If possible, would be really cool if you could make a video about vehicle (hull) movement. Like can tanks move sideways, how does turning go etc.
Wait situation on 32:30 only works IF ruin have windows? If it was ruin that was completely closed, aka if there's no line of sight at all, marines wouldn't be able to shoot Exocrine?
correct; once the target is inside the terrain True LOS applies
Awesome video, thank you so much!
Not sure if I should trust this video, the tactical squad was missing half the unit!
those poor guys had gotten shot up before I started recording :P
19:27 I have a feeling that GW is going to FAQ'd this.
I wonder why they didn't do the cover rules like in older editions : TLoS but to claim cover you need to have 50% or more of the unit obscured
Because deciding what 50% of Angron happens to be is a very difficult question, while discerning whether a wing tip is hidden or nor is a much easier one.
@@jorgemontero6384 fair point but hear me out: back in the days, when there was a debate on whether a model is 50% obscured or not we just rolled a dice, 1-3 it's in cover, 4-6 it's not. Or if we were at a tourney we just called for an org. to judge and decide.
Created too many fights and hard feelings as its way to subjective.
One thing I don’t understand about flying movement-the picture GW provides seems to be wrong? The base seems the phase through the crate’s corner? Did they forget to add another 1-2” to move the base totally off the terrain?
It's clarified in the rules commentary that you do have to measure around the horizontal part of the platform you're flying over
If you are an aircraft in Hover mode, you are simply a tank with the fly keyword and then the LOS rules work just like any other non-aircraft/non-towering model. Hover makes you lose ALL aircraft keywords.
yes
Gw : we make the game simple !
Also Gw : oh yeah your fly unit gonna take 2 minutes each to move
Yeah if the terrain is tall it might even be shorter move and fast to move around it xD
If both units are not within the Ruin and half of your unit's line of sight is blocked off by the ruin, can you still shoot with the remainder of your unit? Or does your whole unit not get to shoot?
sometimes, partial cover realy is stupid. at our table, we ruled, that:
1: you have to draw los to the actual model. raised weapons dont count as a target and putting your gun behind a wall doesn't grant you cover
2: at least 1/4 of the model has to be behind cover. your toe behind some rubble doesn't grant cover. just as that grass tuft on the edge of the base behind cover doesn't give you cover
this makes it more real and less gamy/stupid
I’m assuming some aspects of this video have been overcome by the clarifications on ruins? Eg the land raider “toe in” to the ruins cannot target the marines?
If I have 5 models in a unit, 2 have line of sight and 3 don't have line of sight, do I only role for the 2 that do? (Collected and painted for years but only just starting to play)
If I have a unit of let's say 5 intercessors, and 3 of them are completely open and 2 are completely behind a wall, and I then target an enemy unit in the open with these then
a) can all of them or just the 3 that have line of sight shoot?
b) if only 3 then does the enemy unit get cover even when my two guys who didn't shoot were the only ones without full visibility
Great video, very helpful.
Always good content!!
Thanks trevvy
VERY useful, thank you!
@20:21 Question. my 5 model unit blasts another 5 model unit. 1 enemy model is behind cover. Lets say I hit 4 times. 1dmg to 1 wound models. When opponent allocate saves to the model behind cover, should he roll 1 save at a time? Because how I understand this, when that model dies and opponent must allocate next model, they now have no benefit of cover? I thought since all attacks/shots happen at the same time, the attacking unit will be affected generally by the opponent unit having benefit of cover? That it is not "lost" even if that one model is killed.
If you can draw line if sight from any part of the model, is there a mandatory height limit to models/scenic bases etc...? What's to stop someone RAW putting a long aerial coming out of each unit that gets unobstructed LOS to any unit?
You need to be one special kind of asshole to do that lmao
Not for the moment; you can absolute model for advantage (an issue with TLOS)
@@TacticalTortoise We run with a house rule that ignores stuff like aerials swords in dramatic poses and use basically a cylinder up from the base. No modeled for advantage aerials because they don't have eyes, Players shouldn't be penalized because their models are in dynamic poses, instead of in tactical poses. If you could only kill the models that can be seen by the firing unit it wouldn't be a big deal, but losing an entire unit because of model design and you can see the bayonet on one model doesn't seem fair.
Well, if your model is modified such that it can see over cover, enemy units can shoot it back. Line of sight always goes both ways! (Also your opponent might throttle you)
@@Dorsidwarf They could also decide playing you isn't worth the headache and don't play you again, you could end up with a short list of opponents that play the exact same way you do.
In the rule book it explains the types of visibility but only references terrain features as granting a cover save, no where can I see that models blocking visibility give a cover save, only "terrain features". Am I missing something?
Models blocking LOS do not grant cover unless they have a specific ability that says so, like the Baneblade's Rolling Fortress.
@@AncientWyrm1775 Thx for clearing that up for me.
Wait, so if your unit is receiving an attack and all models are fully visible except one model in the unit, only partially visible from the attacker, thus gaining cover, you could allocate all of the incoming attacks to that one model behind cover before having to go through your models that are fully visible?
Essentially if one model out of a unit of ten is in cover, the whole unit gets cover?
Saves are always rolled sequentially; so you can allocate attacks to the model in cover until that model dies, then you have to roll saves on the out-of-cover models.
@@TacticalTortoise I see.
I imagine models that are not visible at all cannot have attacks allocated to them, nor can they attack themselves if they dont have visibility on any enemy models?
What is that diagram from for the 10:00 mark? I don't see it in the core rules which could lead to confusion regarding players thinking you can only move diagonnally if you start or end your fly movement on terrain. There's nothing in the core PDF that says you can go diagonally during the middle of movement.
sources for rules snippets are listed in the bottom left corner of the video when they're on screen
Where in the does it say you can't move freely over a 2" high section of a terrain piece that has other sections that are higher than 2"?
The people I normally play with house rule that you have to see the core of the model, meaning the directly over the base, we do not count Spikes, gun barrels, hair on top of helmets, etc. GW has models in dramatic poses or with extra bits that stick out, swords raised over heads etc. You also can't draw line of sight from those parts sticking out.
For Ruins and forests, because you have to have room to place models you can't build them with all the debris, trees, undergrowth they would have, that is why the foot print counts for cover.
GW does well on some parts taking in to account that it is a game and terrain can't be built like it would be in real life because you have to place models, but fails when using True LoS with dynamically posed models and not taking in to account they would be positioning weapons and bits so you couldn't see them if they were trying to hide behind cover.
Thanks fo a great vid! One thing is bothering me: are enemy models from enemy unit blocking line of sight to models from other enemy unit that is behind them? Or are the first unit granting this second one benefit of cover because its not wholly visible?
Units don't grant cover unless they have a special rule saying they do - and LOS is always drawn from true line of sight for them (so it's almost impossible for a model to block LOS to another model).
Awesome!
How do you do vertical measurement in TTS? I've been trying to figure that out since my Knights can walk over anything 4" in height or smaller.
So if the las cannon can't see the exocrine @6:25 he cannot shoot it even though the exocrine is visible to other members of the squad?
I know it's been 2 months but I've always seen it as the attacking models have to have line of sight so no he can't shoot even though the others can see. However if you can see one model in a unit you can attack the whole unit as long as you're full unit can all see that one model
@TacticalTortoise How does visibility with ruins work if you have a model with something like wings hanging inside the terrain feature but the base is wholy outside of its footprint, and a unit is shooting from the opposite side? Is it an eligibke target or does this prevent the shooting unit from targeting it? Thx for the answer already! 😊
How do you do the vertical measurements in tts? Or the diagonal ones for the fly movement?
Can a fly unit move from one building top to another without going down?
Id allow it
Rules as Written I don't believe so
Just wanted to ask at 17:48 does that mean the whole unit can claim cover but damage should be assigned first to the model that is behind cover? And if that model behind cover dies, you just minus the save roll you did on the rest of the model or you reroll saves without cover?
You would roll the saves one at a time until that model is dead then you can roll the rest 😊
If your unit A is wholly within ruins and you're shooting at a unit B standing out in the open but some models can only partially see them, say half base, due to the build of the ruin and/or limited window size. Would unit B receive cover bonus?
Yes, the cover applied by Ruins doesn't care what so ever about the position of the shooting unit.
I think this Editions will see a lot of importance on the actual models, as having long guns you can use to reach over edges, through windows, or hide their tip behind walls will make for some weird rulings.
I’m sad they got rid of dense cover and difficult ground. Also, big non-flying tanks can move up on top of non-ruin buildings and “over” two inch defense barriers. Mehhh
Great video
18:45 So the tip of a single guy's lasgun gives better visibility than 4.5/5th of 5 entire guys. Rather ridiculous but sticking it to the comm-ies.
So is partial visibility the same as cover?
If you are fully in a ruins with windows and are shooting at a enemy unit in the open do the enemy unit get cover?
What I'm confused about is that the valiant Knight gives cover to units exclusively to ones that already have 3+
How to find this terrain set for Steam? Looking cool (i mean TTS)
What about melee and cover?
Can confirm, magnets are miraculous.
It's not complicated if you see the multiple models units as one big multipart model
New sub, great idea for a video
Great video. You should just mention that visibility has changed for towering units and ruins since you posted it, shouldn't you?