I have followed this TH-cam channel for years. I also used his referral service on a recent solar install and it went off without a hitch. He is a straight talker and always informative.
In south australia, we've had a Powerwall 2 for two years this august, and already had 10kw of solar. We rarely draw from the grid and have a bill in credit of around $960 as of today. It will pay for itself by this november.
In Townsville we have a 15kw solar system on the shed with no battery in sight and still get at least a $100 credit per month due to the solar making at least 100kwh per day. If we had batteries we would need 3 x powerwalls and paying $40K is so crazy to get off the grid. We have a 17kva generator that powers the whole house when we have a blackout and/or cyclones.
@@Outback_Truckie yep, you have to go with what works for your situation. When/if the grid goes down, I don't think your solar will provide you power. Tesla have a 'gateway' device that allows us to still use our solar if the grid is down. You have a decent generatoras back up, but we are in the burbs.. lol 😆. 15 kw is huge! Wow
@@Ineluki_Myonrashi If I were in the market now I would probably have gone for a BYD. They seem to have a good value for money, which is my language. Unfortunately I bought years ago and realistically the only choices I had were the 6 or 10 LG or the Tesla which was very expensive and on back order for six months.
@@stevelamb6720 suggest you look at the stats for lithium battery fires.....I can't find any cases of a home battery sparking a fire in Australia. The fires are mainly occurring when people charge their cheap ar*e e scooters and other battery powered devices inside their houses.
We put 6.6kW of panels on the roof in early 2020 and although we now generate 56% of our electric usage (averaged over a 12 month period) our electric bills have actually increases by about 3%. Put a battery in mid 2021. I first started using fluro bulbs in 1992 and have been fairly energy conscious ever since and have had LED bulbs in the house and garage for the last 7 years. What we are really missing is an extra 13.3kWh of roof panels and an additional 20kWh of battery storage. During summer there are several days where we would be totally self sufficient if we weren't force fed 7% grid power even when there is full solar available and / or electrickery still available for use in the battery. Bloody annoying that.
i have been off grid for 33 yrs, no gas, more panels is always good, i have 180 panels mostly secondhand $30 dollars each, turn fridge and freezer off at night so that we can use aquarium heaters and dehumidifier instead, don't keep meat in fridge, transfer ice in to fridge overnight. i bought 2 pallets of big batteries about 25 yrs ago second hand they are still in reasonable condition because we mostly use whats coming in, the bulk of those panels only bought in last couple of years from a solar panel installer.
@@KRM85 i got my money back in 5 1/2 years, my Tesla power wall 1, is 8 years old & still going, my two LG batteries were also 8 years old & were recently replaced due to a recall, they were working perfectly as well. You see, I don’t throw $30k away if I don’t do my research. For me, it’s an investment (which has paid off), it’s not for everyone & it’s NOT set & forget. I check the forecast everyday to make sure I maximise my savings, im retired & can do that, but a busy family will not have the time to think about their solar/battery, which will obviously effect their payback time.
Queensland currently has a rebate of $3,000 to $4,000 depending on income (this will not last long). I just installed a battery because of it, which cost $10,000 before the rebate (I'm told prices have gone up). I have an EV plan, which gives free power from 11am to 2pm, so I get to charge the EV, the battery, heat up the hot water, run the dishwasher, etc... at this time. Power between 4:00pm and 9:00pm (time of use) is very expensive, but I have a battery! Combine this with solar power on the roof (13.2kw) purchased a few years ago. My power bill is finally $0. We have gone from about $1,500 average a quarter to $0. All up it has cost about $16,500 (after all rebates). Worth it? for us, absolutely. If i didn't have an EV, payback may have taken much longer. Of note the battery was expensive, and this component only saves us about $4 to $5 a day on average - or about $1,460 to $1,825 a year (which is a pay off time of 3.8 to 4.7 years). We deplete our 13.6kw batter each night, but we use a lot of electricity. if you do not use a lot of electricity, it will take much longer for it to pay it way. We now even seem to be getting a return on our feed in tariff again - Which I have not added to the payback time, but is about $1 a day despite the poor weather we have been having since the install 2 weeks ago. Prior to the rebate, much higher feed in tariffs, and the lack of battery competition, it was not worth it. The math did not add up. Now, because of the increase in power costs, huge decrease in feed in tariffs, the rebate, and better deals to be had with batteries, Things have changed. For us, it was finally time to make the purchase.
@@PyjamasBeforeChristhopefully they will run it again. We got our battery the last time they had a program. Subsidy plus interest free loan on the balance.
Our home solar produces an average of 30Kwh per day over a year. Of that, 5Kwh is used in the house during daylight and 5Kwh goes into our solar battery. That leaves 20Kwh to sell. Instead of selling it, it is implied that we could charge an EV. We could if it sits at home all day. That 20Kwh takes 12 hours to produce. And a Hyundai Kona could drive 109 k! No, so you cannot charge a car from solar. An EV has to be charged overnight - from the mains.
You know most people don’t use the full charge of their ev, so most days you are just topping it up. It’s going to be up and down and vary based on how much you drive. For example a mate of mine is a stay at home software engineer who drives his car locally on the weekends. He absolutely does maintain his vehicle from solar. On the other hand if you commute your vehicle daily then you are going to be hitting the mains.
@@Alan.livingston Yes this is true, just as petrol cars do not need a full tank to drive. In my view an EV should always remain within range of home as that is the only place to charge. A weekend trip from Sydney to Canberra is risky as charging would be an issue.
Given that the price of EV batteries are now around AUD250 per Kwh , why is it that the same batteries used in home batteries are so ridiculously more expensive. I understand the need for a battery management system but they can't be more complicated than in an EV?
I agree 100% with Trevor 15+ kWh 48v CE approved batteries for around 4K are available and are compatible with good quality hybrid inverters such as Goodwe/Deye that cost no more than 2k for a 6kw throughput which would easily power a standard home. the Bs with battery approvals is just a money grab! and no extra cost gateway Bs is needed as the inverters have inbuilt backup. I say it’s nearly come time to disconnect from the grid!!
Perhaps you are talking about the battery pack because CATL LFP batteries are a lot cheaper than $250 per kw. For the individual batteries that go in to a power wall I am pretty sure it's well below $100 AUD now, plus sodium is being scaled up at 30% less than LFP. Everyone talks about the price of EVs coming down to be on parity with ICE but simple storage battery prices could easily come down 50%. When supply exceeds demand and new competition comes in this will happen and when it does the grid operators better watch out. The amount of people going off grid would become out of control. Even with todays prices the need to run expensive poles and wires to rural properties has become completely unnecessary .
@@markumbers5362 It still cost in excess of $50k for an off grid that will do you 3 to 5 days without sun,,, not viable or cost effective considering 10 to 15 years and you need to replace it
I live in far north Queensland and along with a number of friends,have had solar power since the '90s. We all have lead acid batteries, some secondhand, which last about six years. Some larger ones last much longer. Their price has increased about 60% in 33 years. It seems this video is aimed at very wealthy homeowners. The local dealer has confirmed that.
By my calculation my powerwall will break even in around 23 years. Paid 16k and saving around $700 a year based on around $2 a day saved being the difference between export and import rate for the 9kw a day it supplies.
We are with Amber electricity. 6.6kW solar and no battery. Amber very recently had massive prolonged price spikes which prompted many customers to leave in droves (including ourselves). They responded with "capping" the price during spikes to below that of the wholesale market price to keep customers onboard. I have decided to stay and see how it goes. Our house is fully electric but uses extremely low levels of energy (empty nesters and we rarely use space heating or cooling) so a home storage battery would have a long payback time.
Their "market price" model means sometimes it is better to just switch off your house. I know some big industries that had these market price arrangements and sometimes they just shut down when the price went high. Good if you can do that but a bit fraught if you are a household.And when you figure in all the "energy saving " tech like batteries etc, is it worth it?
For majority of households as of now, battery will never make sense. You're basically just prepaying your electricity bills of next few years when you buy a battery.
In America, Insurance is much more expensive annually for homes with solar on the roof, because they have now included the cost of replacement. Another offset that will need to be estimated.
A good video, however most of it was only applicable to single phase installations. If you have 3-phase power *and* the circuits in your house are split across all phases you can basically forget time of use tariffs because to take advantage of them as you describe you need an AC coupled battery and there are no integrated (like the Powerwall) AC coupled 3-phase batteries in Australia at present. In fact right now there are only two hybrid 3-phase inverters available in Australia. If you want to do a commercial scale system you can use multiple inverters tied together to make a 3-phase AC coupled system (SMA, Victron Energy for example) but for an SME or residential installation that’s not going to fly. I’d be very interested in seeing a video specifically on 3-phase systems in Australia. I think we will see more of them as EVs become more common and as more SMEs with 3-phase start thinking of EVs and battery installs.
@@nepeansolarsolutions I have a DC coupled system. Thing is neither of the hybrid inverters available here support charging the battery from the grid, only the PV input. You can use a DC coupled system to avoid high grid rates, but you can’t charge from the grid as per the video so if you have 3-phase and no/limited PV time of use rates are of no value. The thing to look for is low daily supply charges so your excess solar has the best chance of negating them.
@@GraemeLeRoux Are you sure about that? Looking at the Sungrow Hybrid 3-Phase inverter manual e.g. "8.10.9 BatteryForcedChargeTime ... The inverter will take charging power from the grid in the case of PV energy shortage."
The 3 phase meter nets out the dollars across all the phases: support.solarquotes.com.au/hc/en-us/articles/115001596554-How-does-a-single-phase-inverter-on-a-3-phase-supply-affect-my-self-consumption
I built and installed my own 2kw solar/9kw lfp system for 7 grand 4 years ago with zero previous experience, I'd highly recommend it to anyone who can't justify the expense and payback time of bought systems because with sensible use under the right circumstances you could eliminate your power bill entirely creating a realistic payback time. If your fairly handy and motivated and not afraid of side stepping some regulation most people can do it with all the information online and the videos people make explaining everything so well. It is a no brainer when the alternative is getting bent over by our corporate overlords for the rest of your life.
i have a 5.5kw north facing solar system and 10kwh battery in south australia (lots of sun). my bill is no where near eliminated, but it is reduced a great amount. in summer months i only pay the supply charge (sometimes less than that), and in winter i save about 20% via solar, and another 20% thanks to selective grid charging of my batteries - for peak hours usage.
@@jedics1 6 star house and modern, efficient electronics throughout. Intelligent power use to work within the constraints of variable tariff pricing each day. A lot of automation.
@@simonr23 Something is using a lot of power or a little power all the time for our experiences to be so different. My whole place is 2.5 by 7 meters though, which is probably less than 1/4 your whole house.
I got a Powerwall II a few years ago, been working well. Financially, solar panels have a much better ROI, the Powerwall will take a few more years to pay for itself. If your looking to save money on electric bills, I recommend getting as many solar panels you are able to afford, as no matter where you are in Australia, its a sound investment financially, but I wouldnt recommend a battery if your only interested in saving money, as it might take over 10 years for ROI. However, if you also really like the idea of not depending on the grid, or you are having constant issues with grid, then home battery is what you need. I personally recommend the Tesla battery, only because I've heard so many problems about other brands.
Interesting video thanks. Yes my brother in law had one on the side of his house and it went up in flames. Not good. He's been told to put away from the house and spend the money to cable it back to the metre box.
Great and very detailed video. Thank you. I like that you mention the use of a bollard in the garage - something that meant a battery wouldn't fit in mine. The problem with using the integrated solar battery for power when the mains is unavailable is that the battery may have already dishcarged from daily use. I was quoted with having the battery provide power to one circuit only for critical devices such as my fridge and freezer. I was also told that once the battery was discharged fully, it wouldn't recharge from the solar until mains power resumed, which meant best case, it would only provide backup power for half a day. I ended up buying a camping battery for $2k which means I always have a 2kw battery on standby that can power my fridges for 12 hours. I bought some portable solar panels and can charge up the battery during the day in case of a prolonged outage. This means all my rooftop solar goes to covering my normal daily usage - and charging my backup battery. So far I've used the battery twice during blackouts and it enabled me to not only keep the fridges going, but using a powerboard I was able to watch dvds on my tv (no internet during power blackouts) and cook my dinner. If I wish I can also use the battery during high power cost periods to reduce my bill (although I would have to do this daily, and would risk not having backup power if I did this). I am on a time usage power plan, and until battery prices are halved and aren't a fire risk, I cannot see any advantage in buying one.
I love my Tesla Powerwall. One thing you don't seem to mention is software/app support for your system. The Tesla app for the Powerwall is fantastic and integrates with any Tesla cars you have. It will even direct any excess solar to your car. I've seen other brand solar apps and they're nowhere near as good.
The installation standard makes it look more like it’s designed to prevent households having batteries. Going by the standard, there is literal nowhere I can legally install one. I imagine it’s the case for many others. Was the standard drafted by the power industry by chance.
It is rare that we cannot find a suitable location for a battery system to be installed, but also remember that they should never be installed in the direct sun due to the potential overheating.
@@anaestheticsI’m in a 3 bedroom unit. One full side is the adjoining property. Every other side hasn’t got an area large enough to meet the distance from a window requirement. The ridiculous bollard requirement rules out the garage as it would make the garage unusable, it’s not big to start with.
Safety standards exist for a reason - usually because someone died. My house has plenty of suitable locations. I will place my battery (when I eventually get one) in the same garage that my inverters are placed. Bollards won't be an issue because it's a double garage that is not used to house my car. Your specific situation is not indicative of the rest of ours.
I personally don’t believe batteries are worth the initial cost and accrued interest on the investment, two years ago I installed a 10.5kw solar system no battery Gosford area, previously $150-200/ month on TOU and since installing solar and having the hot water changed to heat during the solar peak we average $50 a month rebate. I do have to keep an eye on the power companies as they are always fiddling with the rates. For me batteries are a waste of time and money, the concern of having my house burnt to the ground is also a big factor. PS I can’t see a small built in fire extinguisher putting out a 10kw battery fire, the problem is the battery chemistry makes its own fuel and oxygen.
Well said. Amazing how these climate change zealots are prepared to spend big and be out of pocket forever, whilst believing they are helping the planet.
Fire brigade standard practice is move away smoother it in a fire blanket to stop it spreading and let it burn out because you can’t stop oxygen getting to batteries once they are on fire. Pretty risky if your no. 1 asset is involved and you’re retired with limited income to replace it. Insurance companies don’t cover much…❤
it is not just the fuel and Oxygen, the extreme toxic smoke is also a major concern and firefighters need full HAZMAT suits as the toxic chemicals even on skin contact can kill. and a 10 kWh battery will burn for up to 14 hrs .
Informative topic. However, I wish that the prices that I'm getting for batteries are as low as what you've quoted (rough guide, I know). Most recent quote for a 12kwh battery, increase my 4.5kw array to max of 10kw (that's all that I can fit on the roof) and the changeover tech required in blackouts, was over $20,000, For me, a retiree, that's a lot of dough and the payback time may or may not be around the 5.3 year mark. But $20k can pay for a hell of a lot of electricity over the next ten or so years, which by then, both battery and PV may be in its way out, just like me. For a young family, or even recent empty nesters (people under 50), it would be a solid investment, I guess.
As more people purchase EVs, we have 40-80KW batteries on wheels. Use it to power your home when you’re not driving and the sun is down. Charge it via solar when you can.
That would be perfect. If only the electricity suppliers would allow it. It seems there is only one vineyard in SA. which has faught to do this. Everyone should get together and fight for the right to use or ev's for this
Disturbing to read in SMH that AusGrid intend to penalise people who generate excess solar energy during day UNLESS they have installed a battery. In WA, we have two (govt) Big Batteries to soak up excess daily solar to put back into the grid in the busy evening period. I hope AusGrid's dodgy policy will not deter people from installing Solar in the first instance. I would love to get a battery, but a bit out of my range at the moment, but having solar panels has been such a great experience. Your videos have helped, thanks Finn.
Working out the payback period is tricky, even without considering your opportunity cost and battery life. For a given battery capacity and solar array capacity firstly the array has to have enough excess capacity to fully charge the battery, if not you’re wasting capacity. Then take into account how many cloudy days you want to cover. Then work out for what periods your battery is fully charged and the solar can export to earn extra payback. Then calculate how much it is saving you for each time of day tariff. I ended up downloading 2 years of half hourly data from AGL for my house and making a large spreadsheet which could determine the system situation every half hour. A few years back I felt that battery prices would have to half to make it worthwhile (for me I want payback time to be less than warranty period and with an opportunity cost on my money of 8% (which is long term share market returns)). It will be different now that prices are higher and feed in tariffs are lower, I plan to re-run it.
Ive seen what installers do, to mitigate the fire risks from Lithium storage.......its a 6mm thick piece of fiber cement, that only provides some shield to a homes wall from the rear of the battery. The rest of the battery is free to discharge flames and set the wall on fire anyway.
That 3 year payback period on your battery sounds sus'. Ive got a Powerwall 2 and a 14.4kW PV system. Pay back period on the battery works out at around 8-1/2 years.
Great video and website! Would be cool if your battery comparison table included Blackout protection (Battery backup) as a separate feature row instead of being in Pros and Cons.
In Melbourne over the months from April to September my 9.4 kWh system generates less than 13 kWh of power leaving less than 6kWh over my daytime consumption. I would never charge the battery fully over 6 month period. So to top up would need to come from grid. And the Victorian time of use rates are still way too high. And there is still the retailers supply fee of $1.08 per day so you will always have a bill of some kind and in Victoria the feed in tariff is $0.054c per kWh. So you need to generate anout 60 megawatt hours just to cover that supply bill. Battery payback longer than 10 years based of my generation profile from 12 months of 2023. I dont have the roof space to add more than say 3 kWh of added pannels and then the ugly appearance affecting the street view of my home. Fin's fact sheet is realy helpful but you need all the data to assess. That ssems the only weakness in the decision making process.
Ok so Telsa Battery supply and instal (your number = $15K. Maximum deployable power = 10kW/day. @$0.42/kW that is (at best $4.20 per day.) less the $0.05 that you would have got from a feed in tarrif that makes it 10 x (0.42-0.06) = $3.60 per day. $15000/3.6= 4166 days or 11.41 years. So in just under 12 years you can get your $15K back, no profit, no savings and the battery is out of warranty. However............if you had invested the $15K in a term deposit @ 4%p.a. compounded, for that 12 years, you would have $24K. He just made over $9K from you.
I live in the NSW southern tablelands and after doing an extremely detailed modelling of my own proposed solar plus battery system (much more detailed than the SolarQuotes calculator and using actual hour by hour usage data over a full year), the best average annual return I could get was about 6% after twenty years and all of that came well towards the end. That return could easily be wiped out by increased insurance premiums, a malfunction that required repairs, or even scheduled maintenance and inspections. No combination made a positive return for the first ten years. Even that small return is very optimistic, being dependent on the price of batteries dropping drastically over the period. That is, building up the battery capacity through the period as prices dropped because buying it all up front was a guaranteed loss even over twenty years (replacing batteries and other components as they reached EOL).
Yes - that’s a standard tariff so as the video says the payback is Meh. On a ToU payback is higher because peak is higher and you can charge cheaply at night for the morning peak. So for high energy users in ToU payback can be twice as good.
I do think it’s worth clarifying that with a time of use plan, it still doesn’t always come out beneficial for a battery. I’m in the ACT and the price of peak times is still relatively low at 33c kWh, compared to a 10c export tariff. With my current 8kw panels, for much of the year I’m only drawing 3-5 kwhs from the grid per day. The battery savings from that just don’t exist…yet. Should the peak prices hit 50c or so per kWh, like they have in various other states, then the value proposition dramatically improves. My annual electricity bill is around $400 per year currently, and I’ve modelled a battery (of various sizes) with my usage data over the last few years. The best a battery can do is save about $200-$300 per year. Therefore never paying itself off (at least with the current prices). I haven’t looked at modelling some of those alternative plans you mentioned, so maybe it could be worth it there.
Alpha Smile5 is very good, BUT can only run 3 circuits, when Grid is down, where as POWERWALL runs the whole house, [except high load heat banks on 'night tarriff]. also PowerWall can be switched off from Grid. BUT the Alpha is 5k cheaper.....
Can you tell me if I buy another house in South Australia with solar and no battery, If I add a battery to that will I have to join the flexible exports plan and when I changeover his ownership to me will I have to have the flexible exports plan as well thank you in advance
Thanks for all this info Finn. I like the idea of a battery on a time of use tariff, but we have 3 heat pumps, and it sounds like a battery may not be able to run the heat pumps during the expensive time of use tariff periods? Can you operate heat pumps as well has running the house lights and fridge freezer etc on a battery?
What would you say about free SLA batteries? I can get my hands on literal pallet loads of yuasa 100ah batteries, I just bought my first house and I want solar, I’ll be requesting an inverter that can support a battery bank, I planned to use the sla for my current Offgrid solar setup but had to vacate my rental, so would you say yeah or nah to free 2 year old SLA?
hello. I really like your website and your videos... well done. The battery needs to be outside, is it sensible to build a shelter around it to protect it from weather and heat? Is this a common approach? Any thoughts? Any links?
With an electric bill of £80 a month. Sinking 20 grand in to a solar and battery system seems like financial suicide. Take that 20k and buy stocks and get free electricity on the returns plus keep the investment. Prices need to come way down as this is not economical in any sense.
Great video, good explanation, you mentioned DYI batteries briefly, do you think this will change going forward. I am an electrical engineer and don't see why I can't build my own battery system, I would value your view on this.
Watch out for rebate offers. I bought my Telsla 2 Powerwall as soon as the $750 rebate was offered. 7 months later and no sign of any rebate. Queries go to their Las Vegas offices, where they lament the immense lack of staff assigned to process rebates.
Sorry to hear that. Is your installer involved? Ours agreed to pay the rebate themselves if there was a problem with Tesla. Which there was not, rebate in the bank in 3 weeks.
@SolarQuotes My apologies if I am repeating myself - my earlier replies haven’t appeared. The Australian Tesla support phone staff direct all rebate queries to e-mail PowerwallSupportNA at Tesla. This is where everything gets lost. @Waiting-4-Godot While the installer has been supportive and also contacted various Tesla account and management staff, they have not offered to make this payment - nor would I expect them to at this stage. I am certainly never buying any other Tesla product in future. [edit: correction to Tesla e-mail address above: PowerwallSupportNA]
Why did you say Amber is risky with a battery? As long as it's compatible with SmartShift, this looks after the prices for you. Now what *I'm* doing is going for manual time-based control and crafting my own schedule - that's dangerous, baby! But it smooths the brownouts in my experience, and I can encourage the discharge cycles up from 0.5 to 1 daily and force more feed-in earnings, or down from 2 to 1 and save some battery cycles.
Great idea in theory but in my case I average about $60 a month in grid use vs a Tesla Powerwall "from $247 a month for 60 months" Not working for me! Spending big to save little. I have gone for a second South facing 6.6 kW system so my total cost for both systems is $11k which should have a payback of 7- 8 years and still have a couple of years before I have to worry about replacing inverters etc. vs the vague lifetime of a battery. Virtual batteries mean the utility gets to flog your battery like a renter in a sports car and when you need it there is nothing left for you. Also avoids the lovely pyrotechnic proclivities of the Lithium Ion batteries bolted to your house or even in the garage. I would be happy with a flow battery solution but companies like Redflow seems more focused on larger scale solutions unfortunately despite them doinf some home systems previously. Good idea but not there yet IMHO
Hi Finn, I have a 6.65kw solar system inc.14 panels on the roof, with a Goodwe inverter. I have been told about fitting a 7.68kw Jinko battery to our system, as we have Jinko panels on the roof. Do you have any thoughts on this battery and fitment please?
Ill jump in and answer this question with over 8 years experience in using and optimising my solar / batteries system. Now, the question is, how many kilowatts do you use on a daily basis??, (usually your energy supplier will have this on your bill), do you have off peak hot water or is it gas?? If you want to have a battery installed, you have to change your inverter to a "hybrid" solar inverter, so the inverter, (the brains of the system), knows when to charge the battery / discharge etc. So, whatever the cost of the battery, you have the added cost of a new hybrid inverter. A good hybrid inverter (with a 10 year warranty) is LGES-5048 SOLAR HYBRID INVERTER. This cost (wholesale price $1,850), retail around $2,500-$3,000, then you need a battery and installation. you could get an LG RESU10 10kWh LV 48V LiFePO4 for around $7k. so a new inverter, battery and installation, your looking at around $10k-$10.5k for a 10 kw battery/inverter/installation. Smaller battery, cheaper price. Also the most important factor is the energy plan your on. If your hws is run on electricity, the you should also have off peak power or dedicated circuit to heat up the hws, BUT, you could also put a switch, near your hws, so your have the option to run it on "continuous" power during a sunny day, so when your battery is full, you flip the hws switch and whalla, your hws is being heated up by your solar system. if there is going to be cloudy days, heat up your hws during the night on dedicated circuit, Also on cloudy day, you could have your batteries charged during the night to have power during the day/evening from your battery and not get charged ridiculous "peak rate", Any questions feel free to ask.
Very informative video, thank you. I've recently had 3 quotes from reputable companies (all in your gold & platinum awards) using reputable equipment (all in your gold & silver awards) but 2 of the 3 installers want to use a breaker switch & have you manually switch over the power to the batteries & back again if there is a black out. This seams counterintuitive if it can be carried out automatically by the solar system. What are your thoughts?
Thoughts on the new Anker Solix X1 batteries? Are they available in Australia yet? Trying to find pricing on them is like trying to find a needle in a haystack
Sodium ion batteries come close. Not quite as energy dense. However they are cheaper to make and a larger capacity battery can be had for a similar cost.
@@SolarQuotes Thank you. I just saw your Short about the NSW rebate starting November 1st, so I better do some research. Current solar is using the Enlighten app, so need to figure out if I'm stuck with them as a battery supplier/installer or if a 3rd company can integrate to it. As you said in your video, it's not as simple as buying a pack of AAAs.
IMHO…. initially solar was great, my bills went from over $450 down to $50 until the power companies Reduce your feedin tariffs now I’m paying about what I paid before I had solar!?!?batteries Don’t last long So you have to buy new ones before you’ve even paid off the initial ones. 😮😢
My yearly electricity cost has halved since installing panels 4 years ago. Simply because I don’t pay for electricity when the sun is up. Definitely worth it in Perth, even if cost is your only consideration.
How do you think things like the HOEM device to run selected home circuits from your EV V2L or V2G (when it lands) will affect the viability of home batteries? Granted, the EV must be at home for this to work. Where considerable capital is spent on a large battery on wheels it seems like home owners will want to make the most of that investment.
Hi Finn, thank you for your great video's my question is, over the last 6 month my solar export 6187kwh getting $0.06 NSW for it and my usage was 4286kwh for the 6 months, Im paying $0.34 for anytime usage price. Correct me if I'm wrong, i will be better of with 16kw battery.? Thank you for your time and help.
You’ll save 28c (34-6) per kWh of solar used from your battery. That’s about $1600 per year. That assumes you charge and drain the entire battery every night and it does not degrade over time. So you’ll likely save closer to $1200 per year in reality.
@@SolarQuotes Thank you for replaying, do you think i should get Sungrow 10kW 3P Hybrid Inverter, with Sungrow 16kWh Battery, or Fronius SYMO GEN24 plus 10kw Hybrid inverter with BYD Battery Premium HVM 16.6 kwh. I'm very curious about your opinion. Thank you in Advance
Swapping to a TOU doesn't actually improve the breakeven time. Its only reducing it because the relative cost of the TOU is higher than a flat rate tariff. Its not an apples to apples comparison.
how is this different if you decide to go off grid in the CBD for example, I use about 5kw a day approx, and have a small 2.3kw solar system getting the premium feed in tariff which will run out this year. So why not get a battery and upgrade the solar and go off grid?
With such small usage that is possible. But bear in mind that - without the grid reliability is everything and you need a backup. This starts to get expensive compared to a grid connect system.
Can you explain why the payback period is better if you switch to TOU tariff? If you are using a battery that is fully utilised wouldn't you not be using any electricity from the grid anyway if you had solar?
A battery allows you to store power either from your PV system or from the grid at lowest tarrif...and use that power later in the day when peak TOU tariffs apply and PV is not producing. My battery charges from PV during the day or on a grey day from grid between 1000 and 1500hrs when power is at its cheapest. After 1500 the house is either running PV or the battery.
@@Kiwigeo8339 Thanks. Yeah I thought that might be the case. It's to get the cheapest power from the grid. That said even on single rate plans such as OVO give you free power during the day from 11am - 2PM and also $0.08/kWh from 12am to 6am. Surely that combined with solar would be enough without TOU
I too have followed you for some time. Question: I don't understand why time of use and flat rate is much different because if your system (battery and pannels are working properly you will not be drawing much from the grid. ... please explain.
@@trevorevans7101 good question. If you don’t draw much from the grid then your bills will be similar no matter what tariff you are on, (but your savings will be larger if you are on a ToU because most people with ToUs get bigger bills without batteries). However lots of folks still pull lots from the grid even with a battery especially if they have an EV or two or long cold winters. These folks can charge their batteries cheaply from the grid during the day and late at night cheaply on the right ToU tariff.
I bought a battery but didn’t shell out for backup because we rarely have power failures. But like you said, everytime there was one I regretted not getting the backup. So I finally shelled out for one. Now I’m waiting for the lights to go out so I can celebrate my cleverness 😅
If I had my way, all new estates would have community batteries, with all houses mandated to have a battery/solar install subsidised by the developer. All excess power goes to the community battery which can then top up home batteries and serve the larger grid or the local area in the event of emergencies.
I have this concept for my home solar + battery system, that, combined with an all electric car I could save on "fuel" as well - is that the case? Is this commonly done? Does it work or is there some "gotcha" that means you can't charge an electric car from your solar/battery system? Keen to know as I'm sure it's one of those things I'd be promised, but will evaporate when an electrician comes along and says "nope, that won't work because of X...."
You can charge your car from a home battery - no problem - but most people charge their cars either direct from solar, where possible or overnight on a cheap grid tariff. The problem is the car battery is typically 60-70 kWh and one home battery is 10-13kWh, so easy to drain your home battery leaving it empty for the evening peak.
NO, do the math, the return on investment is like 17 years on a PW. You can only save the difference of about 10kwh per day (don't food yourself you will get the 12.5 of a PW over its life, 3 years on, I get 10.5 at most, consider this, it is May in Melb, by PW has been flat since about 9pm, 13.5kw cells on 10kw inverters). 10.5kw at the difference between your usage cost - your feed in tariff. Maybe 16c/kwh. Here in Melb, thats $1.60 a day saved (if you are paying more, you need to shop around a lot more!). Divide $10,000 by 1.6 = 6250 days to break even. Divide by 365 = 17.12 years. By a battery for the protection of power outages, NOT for the financial benefit. I compared all those time of use plans, they still don't work out. They charge so much in peak periods when your battery still can't provide cover like early morning you get burnt. As for VPPs, Tesla quoted over 30c/kwh usage to sign into their VPP. What the actual F?
Correct as we have always said battery payback can be terrible or it can be reasonable depending on your circumstances. Not everyone lives in Melbourne. Hard to fathom for many Melburnians I know. But I promise it’s true.
@@SolarQuotes But my math above is actually for anywhere you get sun all day, generally you only get to discharge your battery once a day. That's why my math is still really best case in most cases. I know in Melbs I get less sun than say QLD, but my PW was still fully charged today by 2pm, its not all rain and clouds down here either. The more the difference between FIT & rates increases, the lower the ROI, term but its all still far beyond smart. Don't forget that $10K (what I paid with rebates) now is more like $12-15K in 10 years time, $15k upfront is crazy expensive and will be like $18-20K in 10 years money so inflation on your purchase price makes ROI even longer. Batteries need to be 3x the capacity and 1/3 the cost. When it gets there it will be a no brainer. 20kw and $7K is still a maybe. The best option for those who's cars are at home is if we can just use our cars battery. That's a 70kwh battery just sitting there. It won't suite everyone, but it would suite a lot of people, especially with so much work from home going on now.
9 and 11 months later and we are still waiting for a response from solar quotes , seems the batteries they want to sell are all grid connect , no-one wants to do offgrid capable , or dont want to deal with country customers , or maybe i've just got bad BO and no-ones saying .. i dunno i'm guessing the rural thing as my neighbour is still waiting too and when they call places they say we dont service that region , me i'm meeting with greenbank next week as they are happy to just sell me one and i'll get the locals to install it , thanks solar quotes for showing yet again we in the bush DONT MATTER
If the average battery lasts about 7 years and it takes 7 years to pay it off, what's the point. I've got 28 panels on my roof but no battery. My wife uses heaps of electricity as she has a medical condition requiring heaters running all the time. My NSW electricity bill in winter is about $800 per month and I'm getting virtually nothing back from my supplier from the panels. I'm fortunate in that I can afford these bills but as I'm already 83, I wonder if it was all worth it having my solar panels installed 5 years ago. Bummer.
You say diy is a no go in Australia intimating that it is illegal or some such thing. This might be a bit misleading as it is not the case. Quality diy builds are being done all the time with quality cells and bms etc. diy is less than half price
I'm on a time of use tariff and payback would be in the 10-11 year range, so I think the 6 years you are portraying is very unlikely. BTW what size system are you using to get the 6 year payback. In winter you get very little solar to charge your battery (in southern Australia states). So what cost to get the super sized solar panel array to be able to fully charge a Tesla each day. I like your video but just think there is a lot you aren't saying for real payback.
Fully charged and discharged each and every day and it will pay for itself in 9 years. So no cloudy days and god forgive if it is rain. Then you better not use the power during these less then ideal days as you won't have an excess to charge your battery. I've had a 10Kw solar system on my home since the solar scheme was introduced. I've monitored the production and export since day one. My system is due north and no shade during the day and I work out that with my current rate for electricity and taking into account the day that are not ideal, it will take me 16 years and 3 months to pay for the battery. If I take into account that money as a lump payment against my mortgage. The saving on interest payments covers my electricity bill and some. I also don't end up with a dead battery that needs to be replaced.
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I have followed this TH-cam channel for years. I also used his referral service on a recent solar install and it went off without a hitch. He is a straight talker and always informative.
In south australia, we've had a Powerwall 2 for two years this august, and already had 10kw of solar. We rarely draw from the grid and have a bill in credit of around $960 as of today. It will pay for itself by this november.
In Townsville we have a 15kw solar system on the shed with no battery in sight and still get at least a $100 credit per month due to the solar making at least 100kwh per day. If we had batteries we would need 3 x powerwalls and paying $40K is so crazy to get off the grid. We have a 17kva generator that powers the whole house when we have a blackout and/or cyclones.
@@Outback_Truckie yep, you have to go with what works for your situation.
When/if the grid goes down, I don't think your solar will provide you power. Tesla have a 'gateway' device that allows us to still use our solar if the grid is down. You have a decent generatoras back up, but we are in the burbs.. lol 😆. 15 kw is huge! Wow
And my LG is turned off again for another widespread factory recall due to house fires. Definitely do your market research before choosing a unit.
You're right, I did my research and got BYD, ya should have got a BYD.
@@Ineluki_Myonrashi If I were in the market now I would probably have gone for a BYD. They seem to have a good value for money, which is my language. Unfortunately I bought years ago and realistically the only choices I had were the 6 or 10 LG or the Tesla which was very expensive and on back order for six months.
And LG is one of the more reputable manufacturers which should tell you all you need to know..
And who to quote a Tesla employee makes the cells for tesla you guessed it the one being recalled.
@@stevelamb6720 suggest you look at the stats for lithium battery fires.....I can't find any cases of a home battery sparking a fire in Australia. The fires are mainly occurring when people charge their cheap ar*e e scooters and other battery powered devices inside their houses.
We put 6.6kW of panels on the roof in early 2020 and although we now generate 56% of our electric usage (averaged over a 12 month period) our electric bills have actually increases by about 3%. Put a battery in mid 2021. I first started using fluro bulbs in 1992 and have been fairly energy conscious ever since and have had LED bulbs in the house and garage for the last 7 years. What we are really missing is an extra 13.3kWh of roof panels and an additional 20kWh of battery storage.
During summer there are several days where we would be totally self sufficient if we weren't force fed 7% grid power even when there is full solar available and / or electrickery still available for use in the battery. Bloody annoying that.
i have been off grid for 33 yrs, no gas, more panels is always good, i have 180 panels mostly secondhand $30 dollars each, turn fridge and freezer off at night so that we can use aquarium heaters and dehumidifier instead, don't keep meat in fridge, transfer ice in to fridge overnight. i bought 2 pallets of big batteries about 25 yrs ago second hand they are still in reasonable condition because we mostly use whats coming in, the bulk of those panels only bought in last couple of years from a solar panel installer.
Excellent video. Who wouldn't go to this guy to install a battery, when he gives you so much upfront honesty and facts about batteries.
Finn doesn't do installations, He only does blogs, but recommends third party installers (for a kick back)
No! It does not worth it at all!
all this up-front honesty has confirmed the stupidity of wide scale adoption of solar
Mate. You don't get your money back from the batteries. They'll die before that.
@@KRM85 i got my money back in 5 1/2 years, my Tesla power wall 1, is 8 years old & still going, my two LG batteries were also 8 years old & were recently replaced due to a recall, they were working perfectly as well. You see, I don’t throw $30k away if I don’t do my research. For me, it’s an investment (which has paid off), it’s not for everyone & it’s NOT set & forget. I check the forecast everyday to make sure I maximise my savings, im retired & can do that, but a busy family will not have the time to think about their solar/battery, which will obviously effect their payback time.
Queensland currently has a rebate of $3,000 to $4,000 depending on income (this will not last long). I just installed a battery because of it, which cost $10,000 before the rebate (I'm told prices have gone up). I have an EV plan, which gives free power from 11am to 2pm, so I get to charge the EV, the battery, heat up the hot water, run the dishwasher, etc... at this time. Power between 4:00pm and 9:00pm (time of use) is very expensive, but I have a battery! Combine this with solar power on the roof (13.2kw) purchased a few years ago. My power bill is finally $0. We have gone from about $1,500 average a quarter to $0. All up it has cost about $16,500 (after all rebates). Worth it? for us, absolutely. If i didn't have an EV, payback may have taken much longer. Of note the battery was expensive, and this component only saves us about $4 to $5 a day on average - or about $1,460 to $1,825 a year (which is a pay off time of 3.8 to 4.7 years). We deplete our 13.6kw batter each night, but we use a lot of electricity. if you do not use a lot of electricity, it will take much longer for it to pay it way. We now even seem to be getting a return on our feed in tariff again - Which I have not added to the payback time, but is about $1 a day despite the poor weather we have been having since the install 2 weeks ago.
Prior to the rebate, much higher feed in tariffs, and the lack of battery competition, it was not worth it. The math did not add up. Now, because of the increase in power costs, huge decrease in feed in tariffs, the rebate, and better deals to be had with batteries, Things have changed. For us, it was finally time to make the purchase.
Ends on the 8 May 24 unfortunately
@@PyjamasBeforeChristhopefully they will run it again. We got our battery the last time they had a program. Subsidy plus interest free loan on the balance.
Our home solar produces an average of 30Kwh per day over a year. Of that, 5Kwh is used in the house during daylight and 5Kwh goes into our solar battery. That leaves 20Kwh to sell. Instead of selling it, it is implied that we could charge an EV. We could if it sits at home all day. That 20Kwh takes 12 hours to produce. And a Hyundai Kona could drive 109 k! No, so you cannot charge a car from solar. An EV has to be charged overnight - from the mains.
You know most people don’t use the full charge of their ev, so most days you are just topping it up. It’s going to be up and down and vary based on how much you drive.
For example a mate of mine is a stay at home software engineer who drives his car locally on the weekends. He absolutely does maintain his vehicle from solar. On the other hand if you commute your vehicle daily then you are going to be hitting the mains.
@@Alan.livingston Yes this is true, just as petrol cars do not need a full tank to drive. In my view an EV should always remain within range of home as that is the only place to charge. A weekend trip from Sydney to Canberra is risky as charging would be an issue.
One of the best informative videos I have seen. Thank you from New Zealand.
thank you, from across the ditch!
Given that the price of EV batteries are now around AUD250 per Kwh , why is it that the same batteries used in home batteries are so ridiculously more expensive. I understand the need for a battery management system but they can't be more complicated than in an EV?
Because people will pay it. Suppliers will milk it for as long as they can.
I agree 100% with Trevor 15+ kWh 48v CE approved batteries for around 4K are available and are compatible with good quality hybrid inverters such as Goodwe/Deye that cost no more than 2k for a 6kw throughput which would easily power a standard home. the Bs with battery approvals is just a money grab! and no extra cost gateway Bs is needed as the inverters have inbuilt backup. I say it’s nearly come time to disconnect from the grid!!
Rest
Perhaps you are talking about the battery pack because CATL LFP batteries are a lot cheaper than $250 per kw. For the individual batteries that go in to a power wall I am pretty sure it's well below $100 AUD now, plus sodium is being scaled up at 30% less than LFP. Everyone talks about the price of EVs coming down to be on parity with ICE but simple storage battery prices could easily come down 50%. When supply exceeds demand and new competition comes in this will happen and when it does the grid operators better watch out. The amount of people going off grid would become out of control. Even with todays prices the need to run expensive poles and wires to rural properties has become completely unnecessary .
@@markumbers5362 It still cost in excess of $50k for an off grid that will do you 3 to 5 days without sun,,, not viable or cost effective considering 10 to 15 years and you need to replace it
I live in far north Queensland and along with a number of friends,have had solar power since the '90s. We all have lead acid batteries, some secondhand, which last about six years. Some larger ones last much longer. Their price has increased about 60% in 33 years. It seems this video is aimed at very wealthy homeowners. The local dealer has confirmed that.
I love your no-BS approach to this topic - well done mate
No! It does not worth it at all!
Yeah but there is BS so that's a lie.
By my calculation my powerwall will break even in around 23 years. Paid 16k and saving around $700 a year based on around $2 a day saved being the difference between export and import rate for the 9kw a day it supplies.
$15000 for a 10kw battery installed, no thanks.
We are with Amber electricity. 6.6kW solar and no battery. Amber very recently had massive prolonged price spikes which prompted many customers to leave in droves (including ourselves).
They responded with "capping" the price during spikes to below that of the wholesale market price to keep customers onboard. I have decided to stay and see how it goes.
Our house is fully electric but uses extremely low levels of energy (empty nesters and we rarely use space heating or cooling) so a home storage battery would have a long payback time.
Their "market price" model means sometimes it is better to just switch off your house. I know some big industries that had these market price arrangements and sometimes they just shut down when the price went high. Good if you can do that but a bit fraught if you are a household.And when you figure in all the "energy saving " tech like batteries etc, is it worth it?
For majority of households as of now, battery will never make sense. You're basically just prepaying your electricity bills of next few years when you buy a battery.
In America, Insurance is much more expensive annually for homes with solar on the roof, because they have now included the cost of replacement. Another offset that will need to be estimated.
It does not snow in most parts in Australia. Solar panels last for 2 decades and perform well.
A good video, however most of it was only applicable to single phase installations. If you have 3-phase power *and* the circuits in your house are split across all phases you can basically forget time of use tariffs because to take advantage of them as you describe you need an AC coupled battery and there are no integrated (like the Powerwall) AC coupled 3-phase batteries in Australia at present. In fact right now there are only two hybrid 3-phase inverters available in Australia. If you want to do a commercial scale system you can use multiple inverters tied together to make a 3-phase AC coupled system (SMA, Victron Energy for example) but for an SME or residential installation that’s not going to fly. I’d be very interested in seeing a video specifically on 3-phase systems in Australia. I think we will see more of them as EVs become more common and as more SMEs with 3-phase start thinking of EVs and battery installs.
If you have three-phase, consider DC coupled systems.
@@nepeansolarsolutions I have a DC coupled system. Thing is neither of the hybrid inverters available here support charging the battery from the grid, only the PV input. You can use a DC coupled system to avoid high grid rates, but you can’t charge from the grid as per the video so if you have 3-phase and no/limited PV time of use rates are of no value. The thing to look for is low daily supply charges so your excess solar has the best chance of negating them.
@@GraemeLeRoux Are you sure about that?
Looking at the Sungrow Hybrid 3-Phase inverter manual e.g. "8.10.9 BatteryForcedChargeTime ... The inverter will take charging power from the grid in the case of PV energy shortage."
Incorrect. I have had a single phase battery on my three phase house for 6 years.
The 3 phase meter nets out the dollars across all the phases: support.solarquotes.com.au/hc/en-us/articles/115001596554-How-does-a-single-phase-inverter-on-a-3-phase-supply-affect-my-self-consumption
I built and installed my own 2kw solar/9kw lfp system for 7 grand 4 years ago with zero previous experience, I'd highly recommend it to anyone who can't justify the expense and payback time of bought systems because with sensible use under the right circumstances you could eliminate your power bill entirely creating a realistic payback time. If your fairly handy and motivated and not afraid of side stepping some regulation most people can do it with all the information online and the videos people make explaining everything so well. It is a no brainer when the alternative is getting bent over by our corporate overlords for the rest of your life.
i have a 5.5kw north facing solar system and 10kwh battery in south australia (lots of sun). my bill is no where near eliminated, but it is reduced a great amount. in summer months i only pay the supply charge (sometimes less than that), and in winter i save about 20% via solar, and another 20% thanks to selective grid charging of my batteries - for peak hours usage.
@@simonr23 Obviously how efficient your house is, is a big factor and how many people live there and how motivated they are to use power efficiently.
@@jedics1 6 star house and modern, efficient electronics throughout. Intelligent power use to work within the constraints of variable tariff pricing each day. A lot of automation.
@@simonr23 Something is using a lot of power or a little power all the time for our experiences to be so different. My whole place is 2.5 by 7 meters though, which is probably less than 1/4 your whole house.
yes sidestepping is important i have probably saved 100,000 dollars.
I got a Powerwall II a few years ago, been working well. Financially, solar panels have a much better ROI, the Powerwall will take a few more years to pay for itself. If your looking to save money on electric bills, I recommend getting as many solar panels you are able to afford, as no matter where you are in Australia, its a sound investment financially, but I wouldnt recommend a battery if your only interested in saving money, as it might take over 10 years for ROI. However, if you also really like the idea of not depending on the grid, or you are having constant issues with grid, then home battery is what you need. I personally recommend the Tesla battery, only because I've heard so many problems about other brands.
Interesting video thanks. Yes my brother in law had one on the side of his house and it went up in flames. Not good. He's been told to put away from the house and spend the money to cable it back to the metre box.
This is a very good explanation and review of the available technologies and not leaving out the traps and limitations. Covering all angles. 👍👍👍
Great and very detailed video. Thank you. I like that you mention the use of a bollard in the garage - something that meant a battery wouldn't fit in mine. The problem with using the integrated solar battery for power when the mains is unavailable is that the battery may have already dishcarged from daily use. I was quoted with having the battery provide power to one circuit only for critical devices such as my fridge and freezer. I was also told that once the battery was discharged fully, it wouldn't recharge from the solar until mains power resumed, which meant best case, it would only provide backup power for half a day.
I ended up buying a camping battery for $2k which means I always have a 2kw battery on standby that can power my fridges for 12 hours. I bought some portable solar panels and can charge up the battery during the day in case of a prolonged outage. This means all my rooftop solar goes to covering my normal daily usage - and charging my backup battery. So far I've used the battery twice during blackouts and it enabled me to not only keep the fridges going, but using a powerboard I was able to watch dvds on my tv (no internet during power blackouts) and cook my dinner. If I wish I can also use the battery during high power cost periods to reduce my bill (although I would have to do this daily, and would risk not having backup power if I did this).
I am on a time usage power plan, and until battery prices are halved and aren't a fire risk, I cannot see any advantage in buying one.
I love my Tesla Powerwall. One thing you don't seem to mention is software/app support for your system. The Tesla app for the Powerwall is fantastic and integrates with any Tesla cars you have. It will even direct any excess solar to your car. I've seen other brand solar apps and they're nowhere near as good.
Agreed. It’s a big reason it wins best battery when we survey our 500 installers every year.
The installation standard makes it look more like it’s designed to prevent households having batteries. Going by the standard, there is literal nowhere I can legally install one. I imagine it’s the case for many others. Was the standard drafted by the power industry by chance.
Do you live in a greenhouse or similar glass box?
It is rare that we cannot find a suitable location for a battery system to be installed, but also remember that they should never be installed in the direct sun due to the potential overheating.
@@anaestheticsI’m in a 3 bedroom unit. One full side is the adjoining property. Every other side hasn’t got an area large enough to meet the distance from a window requirement. The ridiculous bollard requirement rules out the garage as it would make the garage unusable, it’s not big to start with.
Safety standards exist for a reason - usually because someone died. My house has plenty of suitable locations. I will place my battery (when I eventually get one) in the same garage that my inverters are placed. Bollards won't be an issue because it's a double garage that is not used to house my car. Your specific situation is not indicative of the rest of ours.
Lots of really useful info in here. Thanks 🙏
No! It does not worth it at all!
I personally don’t believe batteries are worth the initial cost and accrued interest on the investment, two years ago I installed a 10.5kw solar system no battery Gosford area, previously $150-200/ month on TOU and since installing solar and having the hot water changed to heat during the solar peak we average $50 a month rebate. I do have to keep an eye on the power companies as they are always fiddling with the rates. For me batteries are a waste of time and money, the concern of having my house burnt to the ground is also a big factor. PS I can’t see a small built in fire extinguisher putting out a 10kw battery fire, the problem is the battery chemistry makes its own fuel and oxygen.
Well said. Amazing how these climate change zealots are prepared to spend big and be out of pocket forever, whilst believing they are helping the planet.
Fire brigade standard practice is move away smoother it in a fire blanket to stop it spreading and let it burn out because you can’t stop oxygen getting to batteries once they are on fire. Pretty risky if your no. 1 asset is involved and you’re retired with limited income to replace it. Insurance companies don’t cover much…❤
it is not just the fuel and Oxygen, the extreme toxic smoke is also a major concern and firefighters need full HAZMAT suits as the toxic chemicals even on skin contact can kill. and a 10 kWh battery will burn for up to 14 hrs .
Informative topic. However, I wish that the prices that I'm getting for batteries are as low as what you've quoted (rough guide, I know).
Most recent quote for a 12kwh battery, increase my 4.5kw array to max of 10kw (that's all that I can fit on the roof) and the changeover tech required in blackouts, was over $20,000,
For me, a retiree, that's a lot of dough and the payback time may or may not be around the 5.3 year mark. But $20k can pay for a hell of a lot of electricity over the next ten or so years, which by then, both battery and PV may be in its way out, just like me.
For a young family, or even recent empty nesters (people under 50), it would be a solid investment, I guess.
As more people purchase EVs, we have 40-80KW batteries on wheels. Use it to power your home when you’re not driving and the sun is down. Charge it via solar when you can.
That would be perfect. If only the electricity suppliers would allow it. It seems there is only one vineyard in SA. which has faught to do this. Everyone should get together and fight for the right to use or ev's for this
Disturbing to read in SMH that AusGrid intend to penalise people who generate excess solar energy during day UNLESS they have installed a battery.
In WA, we have two (govt) Big Batteries to soak up excess daily solar to put back into the grid in the busy evening period.
I hope AusGrid's dodgy policy will not deter people from installing Solar in the first instance. I would love to get a battery, but a bit out of my range at the moment, but having solar panels has been such a great experience.
Your videos have helped, thanks Finn.
At last! An Australian specific video for solar batteries! So helpful, many thanks.
Working out the payback period is tricky, even without considering your opportunity cost and battery life. For a given battery capacity and solar array capacity firstly the array has to have enough excess capacity to fully charge the battery, if not you’re wasting capacity. Then take into account how many cloudy days you want to cover. Then work out for what periods your battery is fully charged and the solar can export to earn extra payback. Then calculate how much it is saving you for each time of day tariff. I ended up downloading 2 years of half hourly data from AGL for my house and making a large spreadsheet which could determine the system situation every half hour. A few years back I felt that battery prices would have to half to make it worthwhile (for me I want payback time to be less than warranty period and with an opportunity cost on my money of 8% (which is long term share market returns)). It will be different now that prices are higher and feed in tariffs are lower, I plan to re-run it.
Excellent explanation.
Glad it was helpful!
No! It does not worth it at all!
Ive seen what installers do, to mitigate the fire risks from Lithium storage.......its a 6mm thick piece of fiber cement, that only provides some shield to a homes wall from the rear of the battery. The rest of the battery is free to discharge flames and set the wall on fire anyway.
What a legend, very informative lots of information there to consider.
I used solar quotes. Great system. My battery will payback in less than 3 years for a big house in Sydney. Tesla app is really good.
That 3 year payback period on your battery sounds sus'. Ive got a Powerwall 2 and a 14.4kW PV system. Pay back period on the battery works out at around 8-1/2 years.
Great video and website! Would be cool if your battery comparison table included Blackout protection (Battery backup) as a separate feature row instead of being in Pros and Cons.
The Braveheart VPP analogy was great 😂
Thanks, Ryan. Love your work!
@@SolarQuotes likewise ! 🥰
In Melbourne over the months from April to September my 9.4 kWh system generates less than 13 kWh of power leaving less than 6kWh over my daytime consumption. I would never charge the battery fully over 6 month period.
So to top up would need to come from grid. And the Victorian time of use rates are still way too high. And there is still the retailers supply fee of $1.08 per day so you will always have a bill of some kind and in Victoria the feed in tariff is $0.054c per kWh. So you need to generate anout 60 megawatt hours just to cover that supply bill.
Battery payback longer than 10 years based of my generation profile from 12 months of 2023. I dont have the roof space to add more than say 3 kWh of added pannels and then the ugly appearance affecting the street view of my home.
Fin's fact sheet is realy helpful but you need all the data to assess. That ssems the only weakness in the decision making process.
I think GloBird in Vic provide for 3 hours of fee electricity which could be used to charge the batter?
Ok so Telsa Battery supply and instal (your number = $15K. Maximum deployable power = 10kW/day. @$0.42/kW that is (at best $4.20 per day.) less the $0.05 that you would have got from a feed in tarrif that makes it 10 x (0.42-0.06) = $3.60 per day. $15000/3.6= 4166 days or 11.41 years. So in just under 12 years you can get your $15K back, no profit, no savings and the battery is out of warranty. However............if you had invested the $15K in a term deposit @ 4%p.a. compounded, for that 12 years, you would have $24K. He just made over $9K from you.
I live in the NSW southern tablelands and after doing an extremely detailed modelling of my own proposed solar plus battery system (much more detailed than the SolarQuotes calculator and using actual hour by hour usage data over a full year), the best average annual return I could get was about 6% after twenty years and all of that came well towards the end. That return could easily be wiped out by increased insurance premiums, a malfunction that required repairs, or even scheduled maintenance and inspections. No combination made a positive return for the first ten years.
Even that small return is very optimistic, being dependent on the price of batteries dropping drastically over the period. That is, building up the battery capacity through the period as prices dropped because buying it all up front was a guaranteed loss even over twenty years (replacing batteries and other components as they reached EOL).
Yes - that’s a standard tariff so as the video says the payback is Meh. On a ToU payback is higher because peak is higher and you can charge cheaply at night for the morning peak. So for high energy users in ToU payback can be twice as good.
No mention of sodium batteries?
excellent information ... thank you.
No! It does not worth it at all!
@@RK.7796 why do you say that?
What about Hauwei?
I do think it’s worth clarifying that with a time of use plan, it still doesn’t always come out beneficial for a battery.
I’m in the ACT and the price of peak times is still relatively low at 33c kWh, compared to a 10c export tariff. With my current 8kw panels, for much of the year I’m only drawing 3-5 kwhs from the grid per day. The battery savings from that just don’t exist…yet.
Should the peak prices hit 50c or so per kWh, like they have in various other states, then the value proposition dramatically improves.
My annual electricity bill is around $400 per year currently, and I’ve modelled a battery (of various sizes) with my usage data over the last few years. The best a battery can do is save about $200-$300 per year. Therefore never paying itself off (at least with the current prices).
I haven’t looked at modelling some of those alternative plans you mentioned, so maybe it could be worth it there.
Good point. ACT has phenomenally good grid tariffs compared to the rest of Australia.
Do the math, by the time you get your money back, you need to replace the system
Looking forward to a Tesla Powerwall 3 review now they are available in Australia!
Alpha Smile5 is very good, BUT can only run 3 circuits, when Grid is down, where as POWERWALL runs the whole house, [except high load heat banks on 'night tarriff]. also PowerWall can be switched off from Grid. BUT the Alpha is 5k cheaper.....
A family member recently installed a Tesla battery to an existing pv solar panel system. The cost was $16,000.
If there wasn't any extra work involved in the installation (eg major switchboard modifications) then it sounds like the installer ripped them off.
@@Kiwigeo8339 I was quoted 18 k in perth on a tesla powerwall 2, another of Solar quotes recommended shonks.
Can you tell me if I buy another house in South Australia with solar and no battery, If I add a battery to that will I have to join the flexible exports plan and when I changeover his ownership to me will I have to have the flexible exports plan as well thank you in advance
I want to do my part to solve the energy problem in this country. There should be more incentives to store energy.
Thanks for all this info Finn. I like the idea of a battery on a time of use tariff, but we have 3 heat pumps, and it sounds like a battery may not be able to run the heat pumps during the expensive time of use tariff periods? Can you operate heat pumps as well has running the house lights and fridge freezer etc on a battery?
This was great, thank you.
No! It does not worth it at all!
What would you say about free SLA batteries? I can get my hands on literal pallet loads of yuasa 100ah batteries, I just bought my first house and I want solar, I’ll be requesting an inverter that can support a battery bank, I planned to use the sla for my current Offgrid solar setup but had to vacate my rental, so would you say yeah or nah to free 2 year old SLA?
hello. I really like your website and your videos... well done. The battery needs to be outside, is it sensible to build a shelter around it to protect it from weather and heat? Is this a common approach? Any thoughts? Any links?
Question please. Does you 5+ payback period with split tarrifs assume Solar PV ir not ?
With an electric bill of £80 a month. Sinking 20 grand in to a solar and battery system seems like financial suicide. Take that 20k and buy stocks and get free electricity on the returns plus keep the investment. Prices need to come way down as this is not economical in any sense.
Seriously awesome video. Thanks. 🙏.
Great video, good explanation, you mentioned DYI batteries briefly, do you think this will change going forward. I am an electrical engineer and don't see why I can't build my own battery system, I would value your view on this.
What about flow batteries in comparison?
Could we have a shorter video to back this one up explaining the pros and cons of buying solar vs solar + battery at the same time up front?
Great and informative video
Hey, why dont you include Huawei batteries in your comparison charts? Did i make a mistake purchasing them?
Huawei are good batteries, in Australia they are now branded as 'iStore', and supported by SolarGain - who will look after your Huawei batteries too.
Watch out for rebate offers. I bought my Telsla 2 Powerwall as soon as the $750 rebate was offered. 7 months later and no sign of any rebate. Queries go to their Las Vegas offices, where they lament the immense lack of staff assigned to process rebates.
you bought in Australia and they send you to their Vegas office?
@@SolarQuotesIndirectly, yes. All rebate queries are directed to only email contact with PowerwallNA at tesla.
Sorry to hear that. Is your installer involved? Ours agreed to pay the rebate themselves if there was a problem with Tesla. Which there was not, rebate in the bank in 3 weeks.
@SolarQuotes My apologies if I am repeating myself - my earlier replies haven’t appeared. The Australian Tesla support phone staff direct all rebate queries to e-mail PowerwallSupportNA at Tesla.
This is where everything gets lost.
@Waiting-4-Godot While the installer has been supportive and also contacted various Tesla account and management staff, they have not offered to make this payment - nor would I expect them to at this stage. I am certainly never buying any other Tesla product in future.
[edit: correction to Tesla e-mail address above: PowerwallSupportNA]
I got my rebate within a week or so
Why did you say Amber is risky with a battery? As long as it's compatible with SmartShift, this looks after the prices for you. Now what *I'm* doing is going for manual time-based control and crafting my own schedule - that's dangerous, baby! But it smooths the brownouts in my experience, and I can encourage the discharge cycles up from 0.5 to 1 daily and force more feed-in earnings, or down from 2 to 1 and save some battery cycles.
Great idea in theory but in my case I average about $60 a month in grid use vs a Tesla Powerwall "from $247 a month for 60 months"
Not working for me! Spending big to save little.
I have gone for a second South facing 6.6 kW system so my total cost for both systems is $11k which should have a payback of 7- 8 years and still have a couple of years before I have to worry about replacing inverters etc. vs the vague lifetime of a battery.
Virtual batteries mean the utility gets to flog your battery like a renter in a sports car and when you need it there is nothing left for you.
Also avoids the lovely pyrotechnic proclivities of the Lithium Ion batteries bolted to your house or even in the garage.
I would be happy with a flow battery solution but companies like Redflow seems more focused on larger scale solutions unfortunately despite them doinf some home systems previously.
Good idea but not there yet IMHO
Hi Finn, I have a 6.65kw solar system inc.14 panels on the roof, with a Goodwe inverter. I have been told about fitting a 7.68kw Jinko battery to our system, as we have Jinko panels on the roof. Do you have any thoughts on this battery and fitment please?
Ill jump in and answer this question with over 8 years experience in using and optimising my solar / batteries system. Now, the question is, how many kilowatts do you use on a daily basis??, (usually your energy supplier will have this on your bill), do you have off peak hot water or is it gas?? If you want to have a battery installed, you have to change your inverter to a "hybrid" solar inverter, so the inverter, (the brains of the system), knows when to charge the battery / discharge etc. So, whatever the cost of the battery, you have the added cost of a new hybrid inverter. A good hybrid inverter (with a 10 year warranty) is LGES-5048 SOLAR HYBRID INVERTER. This cost (wholesale price $1,850), retail around $2,500-$3,000, then you need a battery and installation. you could get an LG RESU10 10kWh LV 48V LiFePO4 for around $7k. so a new inverter, battery and installation, your looking at around $10k-$10.5k for a 10 kw battery/inverter/installation. Smaller battery, cheaper price. Also the most important factor is the energy plan your on. If your hws is run on electricity, the you should also have off peak power or dedicated circuit to heat up the hws, BUT, you could also put a switch, near your hws, so your have the option to run it on "continuous" power during a sunny day, so when your battery is full, you flip the hws switch and whalla, your hws is being heated up by your solar system. if there is going to be cloudy days, heat up your hws during the night on dedicated circuit, Also on cloudy day, you could have your batteries charged during the night to have power during the day/evening from your battery and not get charged ridiculous "peak rate", Any questions feel free to ask.
Very informative video, thank you. I've recently had 3 quotes from reputable companies (all in your gold & platinum awards) using reputable equipment (all in your gold & silver awards) but 2 of the 3 installers want to use a breaker switch & have you manually switch over the power to the batteries & back again if there is a black out. This seams counterintuitive if it can be carried out automatically by the solar system. What are your thoughts?
Power wall 3 has just arrived in Australia. Can you do a review on this?
Just shows how stupid the electricity system has become.
Thoughts on the new Anker Solix X1 batteries?
Are they available in Australia yet?
Trying to find pricing on them is like trying to find a needle in a haystack
Did you find the needle yet?
I remember being told by SolarEdge that their battery doesn't have a built-in fire-extinguisher anymore.
The iStore Battery does though.
Interesting - just checked the SE battery's latest data sheet and it lists the fire extinguisher as 'optional'.
Sodium ion batteries come close. Not quite as energy dense. However they are cheaper to make and a larger capacity battery can be had for a similar cost.
Can you point us to any commercially available and approved for grid-connection in Australia?
What’s needed for total off grid, I’m paying $1800 per quarter on electricity
600mm away from windows was common for most electrical installations, so no problem there.
8:11 Crazy facts to watch out for.
Is there a cost saving for install if you have micro inverters rather than a single inverter unit?
@@madmax1412 nope. Same install. Same cost
@@SolarQuotes Thank you. I just saw your Short about the NSW rebate starting November 1st, so I better do some research.
Current solar is using the Enlighten app, so need to figure out if I'm stuck with them as a battery supplier/installer or if a 3rd company can integrate to it.
As you said in your video, it's not as simple as buying a pack of AAAs.
can a battery (and possibly also the inverter as well) be installed in the roof space / attic? (steel frame roof vs timber roof)
No Idea, but I doubt it.
You want to keep the battery as cool as possible.
Almost certainly not - I can’t see any way it would meet the installation standards
IMHO…. initially solar was great, my bills went from over $450 down to $50 until the power companies Reduce your feedin tariffs now I’m paying about what I paid before I had solar!?!?batteries Don’t last long So you have to buy new ones before you’ve even paid off the initial ones. 😮😢
When we all have batteries, they’ll just boost the daily supply charge even more. About half of my current bill is just supply charges.
My yearly electricity cost has halved since installing panels 4 years ago. Simply because I don’t pay for electricity when the sun is up. Definitely worth it in Perth, even if cost is your only consideration.
i think it's better to buy ev with vehicle to load function unless you live in an area where blackouts are often
How do you think things like the HOEM device to run selected home circuits from your EV V2L or V2G (when it lands) will affect the viability of home batteries? Granted, the EV must be at home for this to work. Where considerable capital is spent on a large battery on wheels it seems like home owners will want to make the most of that investment.
Hoem is very limited. When cheap V2G inverters appear this will take off.
Thank you.
Hi Finn, thank you for your great video's my question is, over the last 6 month my solar export 6187kwh getting $0.06 NSW for it and my usage was 4286kwh for the 6 months, Im paying $0.34 for anytime usage price. Correct me if I'm wrong, i will be better of with 16kw battery.? Thank you for your time and help.
You’ll save 28c (34-6) per kWh of solar used from your battery. That’s about $1600 per year. That assumes you charge and drain the entire battery every night and it does not degrade over time. So you’ll likely save closer to $1200 per year in reality.
@@SolarQuotes Thank you for replaying, do you think i should get Sungrow 10kW 3P Hybrid Inverter, with Sungrow 16kWh Battery, or Fronius SYMO GEN24 plus 10kw Hybrid inverter with BYD Battery Premium HVM 16.6 kwh. I'm very curious about your opinion. Thank you in Advance
Swapping to a TOU doesn't actually improve the breakeven time. Its only reducing it because the relative cost of the TOU is higher than a flat rate tariff. Its not an apples to apples comparison.
how is this different if you decide to go off grid in the CBD for example, I use about 5kw a day approx, and have a small 2.3kw solar system getting the premium feed in tariff which will run out this year. So why not get a battery and upgrade the solar and go off grid?
With such small usage that is possible. But bear in mind that - without the grid reliability is everything and you need a backup. This starts to get expensive compared to a grid connect system.
Are you using a Tesla powerwall 2 in you calculations this has a separate inverter, install price will be reduced if you quote on a powerwall 3
Powerwall 3 not yet available in Australia
Can you explain why the payback period is better if you switch to TOU tariff? If you are using a battery that is fully utilised wouldn't you not be using any electricity from the grid anyway if you had solar?
A battery allows you to store power either from your PV system or from the grid at lowest tarrif...and use that power later in the day when peak TOU tariffs apply and PV is not producing. My battery charges from PV during the day or on a grey day from grid between 1000 and 1500hrs when power is at its cheapest. After 1500 the house is either running PV or the battery.
@@Kiwigeo8339 Thanks. Yeah I thought that might be the case. It's to get the cheapest power from the grid. That said even on single rate plans such as OVO give you free power during the day from 11am - 2PM and also $0.08/kWh from 12am to 6am. Surely that combined with solar would be enough without TOU
I too have followed you for some time. Question: I don't understand why time of use and flat rate is much different because if your system (battery and pannels are working properly you will not be drawing much from the grid. ... please explain.
@@trevorevans7101 good question. If you don’t draw much from the grid then your bills will be similar no matter what tariff you are on, (but your savings will be larger if you are on a ToU because most people with ToUs get bigger bills without batteries). However lots of folks still pull lots from the grid even with a battery especially if they have an EV or two or long cold winters. These folks can charge their batteries cheaply from the grid during the day and late at night cheaply on the right ToU tariff.
What about lithium sulphur batteries? They solved the manufacturing challenges in 2022. Surely we would be seeing some soon?!
The grid fails at least 5 times a year for us. It's getting worse each year. Sitting angry in the dark makes batteries look cheap.
There are other backup forms of power that cost a lot less.
@sandponics ever tried cooking or heating your house with a torch?
I bought a battery but didn’t shell out for backup because we rarely have power failures. But like you said, everytime there was one I regretted not getting the backup. So I finally shelled out for one. Now I’m waiting for the lights to go out so I can celebrate my cleverness 😅
I am in NZ and have free power from 9 till 12 have no solar would a battery be a good idea?
I mean, that sounds like a no-brainer..
If I had my way, all new estates would have community batteries, with all houses mandated to have a battery/solar install subsidised by the developer. All excess power goes to the community battery which can then top up home batteries and serve the larger grid or the local area in the event of emergencies.
YES! I've been saying this for ages!
I have this concept for my home solar + battery system, that, combined with an all electric car I could save on "fuel" as well - is that the case? Is this commonly done? Does it work or is there some "gotcha" that means you can't charge an electric car from your solar/battery system? Keen to know as I'm sure it's one of those things I'd be promised, but will evaporate when an electrician comes along and says "nope, that won't work because of X...."
You can charge your car from a home battery - no problem - but most people charge their cars either direct from solar, where possible or overnight on a cheap grid tariff. The problem is the car battery is typically 60-70 kWh and one home battery is 10-13kWh, so easy to drain your home battery leaving it empty for the evening peak.
Battery prices are still going down right?
Yes. Battery cell prices are, but takes some time for this to flow through to the packaged home batteries.
NO, do the math, the return on investment is like 17 years on a PW. You can only save the difference of about 10kwh per day (don't food yourself you will get the 12.5 of a PW over its life, 3 years on, I get 10.5 at most, consider this, it is May in Melb, by PW has been flat since about 9pm, 13.5kw cells on 10kw inverters). 10.5kw at the difference between your usage cost - your feed in tariff. Maybe 16c/kwh. Here in Melb, thats $1.60 a day saved (if you are paying more, you need to shop around a lot more!). Divide $10,000 by 1.6 = 6250 days to break even. Divide by 365 = 17.12 years.
By a battery for the protection of power outages, NOT for the financial benefit. I compared all those time of use plans, they still don't work out. They charge so much in peak periods when your battery still can't provide cover like early morning you get burnt.
As for VPPs, Tesla quoted over 30c/kwh usage to sign into their VPP. What the actual F?
Correct as we have always said battery payback can be terrible or it can be reasonable depending on your circumstances. Not everyone lives in Melbourne. Hard to fathom for many Melburnians I know. But I promise it’s true.
@@SolarQuotes But my math above is actually for anywhere you get sun all day, generally you only get to discharge your battery once a day. That's why my math is still really best case in most cases. I know in Melbs I get less sun than say QLD, but my PW was still fully charged today by 2pm, its not all rain and clouds down here either. The more the difference between FIT & rates increases, the lower the ROI, term but its all still far beyond smart. Don't forget that $10K (what I paid with rebates) now is more like $12-15K in 10 years time, $15k upfront is crazy expensive and will be like $18-20K in 10 years money so inflation on your purchase price makes ROI even longer. Batteries need to be 3x the capacity and 1/3 the cost. When it gets there it will be a no brainer. 20kw and $7K is still a maybe. The best option for those who's cars are at home is if we can just use our cars battery. That's a 70kwh battery just sitting there. It won't suite everyone, but it would suite a lot of people, especially with so much work from home going on now.
Brilliant
9 and 11 months later and we are still waiting for a response from solar quotes , seems the batteries they want to sell are all grid connect , no-one wants to do offgrid capable , or dont want to deal with country customers , or maybe i've just got bad BO and no-ones saying .. i dunno i'm guessing the rural thing as my neighbour is still waiting too and when they call places they say we dont service that region , me i'm meeting with greenbank next week as they are happy to just sell me one and i'll get the locals to install it , thanks solar quotes for showing yet again we in the bush DONT MATTER
9:39 Battery systems with already installed automatic fire extinguisher 10:08 sounds... scary and safer then those with none.
If the average battery lasts about 7 years and it takes 7 years to pay it off, what's the point. I've got 28 panels on my roof but no battery. My wife uses heaps of electricity as she has a medical condition requiring heaters running all the time. My NSW electricity bill in winter is about $800 per month and I'm getting virtually nothing back from my supplier from the panels. I'm fortunate in that I can afford these bills but as I'm already 83, I wonder if it was all worth it having my solar panels installed 5 years ago. Bummer.
You say diy is a no go in Australia intimating that it is illegal or some such thing. This might be a bit misleading as it is not the case. Quality diy builds are being done all the time with quality cells and bms etc. diy is less than half price
Not grid connected.
I'm on a time of use tariff and payback would be in the 10-11 year range, so I think the 6 years you are portraying is very unlikely. BTW what size system are you using to get the 6 year payback. In winter you get very little solar to charge your battery (in southern Australia states). So what cost to get the super sized solar panel array to be able to fully charge a Tesla each day. I like your video but just think there is a lot you aren't saying for real payback.
Thus charging battery from the grid during super off peak TOU rates, so that you are using battery power during evening peak hours ;)
Wait.. by the time you’ve made the savings, you’ll need a new battery.. right?
Fully charged and discharged each and every day and it will pay for itself in 9 years. So no cloudy days and god forgive if it is rain. Then you better not use the power during these less then ideal days as you won't have an excess to charge your battery.
I've had a 10Kw solar system on my home since the solar scheme was introduced. I've monitored the production and export since day one. My system is due north and no shade during the day and I work out that with my current rate for electricity and taking into account the day that are not ideal, it will take me 16 years and 3 months to pay for the battery.
If I take into account that money as a lump payment against my mortgage. The saving on interest payments covers my electricity bill and some. I also don't end up with a dead battery that needs to be replaced.
In the USA you can rent them but not in out corporate first Australian