Thank you so much for this video and your thoughtful insights! I do wholeheartedly agree that some of the traps you see in our older videos aren’t the best options and as our work has evolved over the years a lot of that has been omitted and a larger focus has been placed on rapid fire stabbing. The hostage stuff was part of a series of antiabduction workshops we did in collaboration with Ed’s Manifesto down in Tijuana. I’ve been pretty bad about uploading our more current work onto TH-cam, but we post content daily on Instagram. Once again, thank you so much for this video! Scott
@@inside_fighting from my view the reason for pull the knife and hiding it is to have it if ready in the yelling phase it might not get dangerous but just in case draw and hide the weapon
Yeah I agree. When I pull out my knife I want intimidation and distance. Almost 50 years old and grown up in Detroit I've seen a lot of and been in a lot of scuffles of this sort. There's never been a situation where I didn't see it coming. So situational awareness goes without saying. Practicing your draw to strike is crucial and striking first essential.
@@notannie4798it’s either enough or it’s not but the end result if it’s not is the same which is an attack being initiated… even if it dissuades 30% of people that’s a huge asset. It also make it easier to cut stab the attacker as they come in and limits the kind of aggressiveness they can assert
@@notannie4798 I've had to do it three times and yes it worked every time. YOU have to be intimidating, the blade is a force multiplier. Make them believe that they are going to get hurt. Having a blade pulled on you is pretty scary.
Hey there. Not to get too personal but I grew up around I-96 and Outer Dr. What they used to to call Brightmore. I'm kicking it down in Florida these days. It's nice to hear from another survivor.👊
I trained a lot of years in the last century. Mostly dirty Chinese derived street boxing and FMA. 100% found things to match your analysis. My Sifu and I never could have survived each other, barring a miraculous first shot! If the young folks came to me anymore, I’d recommend they researched if you teach. Scientifically minded analysis like this makes the most useful video! Carry on!
I'm a LEO and everyone I work with has at least one knife hidden on themselves often two or more counting neck knifes and such. Yes, Technically not part of your issued kit (equipment give to you by your employer) but still carried. By the way, Love your channel.
I love reality base systems. At first, I was kinda in the fantasy about martial arts and the systems, but as time went on and I was lucky enough to receive training from an actual fighter; I started to look at ever other martial arts closely and how their application can be used for the streets. And this art, Libre Knife, is another art I can definitely appreciate.
I agree with your analysis, but I was always taught to not let the enemy see the knife. It should be felt rather than seen. I can see some advantages of letting him see the knife. That could be risky. I’ll have to think about that! Thanks Jared
Once again, awesome take on another, seemingly, incredible fighting system. You are THE ONLY person who addresses the subtle nuances in fighting that are only recognized by real fighters. At times, i have questioned myself about consuming too much time on many of the smaller subjects you have brought flrward in your videos. Simply because they were not things openly or commonly addressed by any of my teachers or elswhere in the world of fighting. Things exactly like deployment of your bade, lead hand vs rear hand, blade orientation, etc. are, again, only relevant to practitioners who actually do this for real - in preparation for real encounters. Most people, even so called experts, have no clue what you’re talking about nor care to dig this far into the subtleties of techniques and strategies. I admit that this made it easy for me to dismiss many of the idiots who blindly give out advice over the internet without coming close to addressing the horrors of real fights, as well as the myriad of closed minded instructors who simply regurgitate strictly what their teachers taufht them without questioning the real issues confronted when pressire testing their fighting principles. Personally, i have come to the same conclusions you have in regards to when to use a rear handed,dagger down grip...and its primarily only when the enemy hasn’t deployed his weapon yet (the only other time is when there are muLtiple attackers who are positioned at different angles around you which is only in the initial phase of the fight and really only amatter of perspective and will quickly be adjusted to by good footwork or manipulation of one attacker to line up with or shield against the attacker on the weak side). I cant thank you enough for crushing my belief that i stood alone with my thoughts on all of these issues you bring up in this and many of your videos. Arrogance is something i detest in the martial arts and i think i had begun to slip down that road myself before finally hearing someone else focus on these things. I also hate people who ride on the coat tails of their teachers and their prowess and achievements, yet never themselves ever fight. But thats for another discussion. My hats to you, my friend. I hope you can showcase many other legit practitioners and systems as you have done here. I look forward to learning as much as i can because of the exposure and platform on which you address the arts. Best of luck. OSS!
Look up Ed Calderon, he's ran the same employment circles I have. Ed trained with Scott & Scott trained in Sayoc & Piper, he trains quite a few military types & contractors hence the counter kidnapping events he & Ed have put on, similar to a couple I attended when I worked in Mexico.
Libre practice utilizes highly flexible knives, allowing for forceful strikes during training, i think that's pretty unique. It really makes a difference, specially because Filipino martial arts as I've experienced had a mindset of longer weapons (even their knives were huge for modern standards)
In doce pares we used 5 inch blades typically. In ilistrisimo we either used machete/sword or a knife but the knives were short. This may just have been my experience though.
A knife is one of the most fearful weapons a person could ever encounter! Even the best defense is hopeless. Knife to knife is lunacy. The first strike, as the Libre teach just ‘might’ be a winner though!
Cool video! Another knife art that I haven't seen been discussed or covered much is Apache Knife Fighting done by Robert Redfeather. Would love to hear your thoughts
Then your training is vain, for you cannot always run away from the aggressor. They are predators and are usually very careful about the timing and the place of an attack.
The reason balintawak trains close range is because when your eyes get used to it it makes long rang easy to see so the close range makes long range easier
Great video! We'd had never heard of Libre Knife Fighting until we hosted an Ed's Manifesto course (Ed Calderon) and he mentioned them. We really like the practicality of this system and hope to host a course from Libre Fighting someday in the future. Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) knife training is great, but it appears as Libre fills the gaps in regards to reality self-defense training. We typically recommend FMA knife training and then supplementing your knife training with courses from places like Libre Fighting, Martial Blade Concepts (MDC) and AMOK.
@@Wierdojames I don't think I can put a link on here, but I did a search for "amok knife fighting" and it was the first result for me. I did the same for "Martial Blade Concepts". As @wizardoftas7779 pointed out, both have distance learning options, which I'm interested in trying out.
I really appreciate your channel, with your open minded explorations. I'd like to add my take on knife fighting & its many styles. I think most would agree on 2 things: there is not 1 style or knife that is perfect for all scenarios & that in a knife vs knife encounter, everyone loses!! Facing a person with a knife, & not able to retreat, I would much rather be armed with a stick, jacket, belt etc, than with a knife (anything that would help me maintain some distance). Most encounters very quickly end up in a very close, uncomfortable range, where a small knife held in a reverse grip is effective & just might save your life. It still must be carried in a way that can be accessed quickly, under duress. That's how I see Libre being super effective, much like Craig Douglas' ShivWorks, Piper & especially Pekiti Tirsia's pikal techniques. To my eyes, those are all based on natural, gross motor movements, the kind that are usable once the adrenaline dump hits. Lastly, a bigger fixed blade knife is just not realistic for most of us, for daily concealed carry, not to mention the legal ramifications! I am certainly not an expert, but it seems like common sense to me. Thanks again for your great content!
Nice video and good information on the distance of gun vis a-viz a Knife. Also, to point out an observation- the solo drill looks a lot like the 52 hand block knife drills...at least from the few videos I saw
The problem with deterrence could be the escalation factor. My blade (or gun) comes out and he appears unarmed, I may see his pistol come out. The reverse is true. People aren’t always scared into intimidation. Sometimes they’re scared into violent action. If a knife comes out and is threatening me, and I I can’t safely retreat and I have a gun, I’m shooting. The 21 foot rule applies…sometimes. Kelly McCann debunked it somewhat. If I’m not carrying a pistol and a young, strong or big (or all three) empty handed attacker comes at me, drawing and cutting like in Libre might work and is justifiable in some jurisdictions given my small size, old age and arthritis. If I draw a blade first as a deterrent before any clear attack, my life gets complicated in the aftermath. It gets REALLY complicated if he escalates and draws a gun. I brought the proverbial knife to the gunfight. The various cell phones or security cams videoing the incident might not be kind, regardless.
Great video. Yes, Babb does have an extensive Filipino background, along with boxing and other forms of traditional martial arts. Libre is mostly based on fma and boxing. It focuses on small blades because that’s what people are more likely to carry so there’s not a lot of largo Mano involved.
I'm not an expert on Libre, but has been studying as much as I can since the middle of the year. I plan on taking online classes with one of the main representatives of the system in Brazil, but that hasn't come off yet (I'm studying for a exam so I don't have much time for anything else). That being said...I noticed that Libre has a lot of emphasis on preemptive (like Urban Combatives mentality) and counter-ambush tactics. The "strike first" and the "I screwed up my situational awareness" scenarios...which are awesome, IMHO. Once in a while, every one of us will be off guard, drunk, relaxed with out families, on a NPE surrounded with security, sleeping, sited on a bus, sited on a train, etc. etc. and what could grant me that a knife ambush won't happen in these moments? I mean, I don't have enemies or reasons to believe that someone would premeditate and attack me like this, but what about the nutjobs that appear on the media randomly ambushing people with knives? Also, a lot of police officers, security guards and..."very confident" people...are really close to the agressor when the later pulls (or tries to pull) a knife. So one should train to identify the threat and strike first, before the draw. Here in Brazil it's legal to strike first IF the attack is imminent, at least. So I believe Libre is fundamental for anybody, but specially fundamental for police officers (and I'm studying to be one right now), security guards, etc. Not criticising the video, which was awesome. Only stating a point.
I have grabbed a knife once and it was the 1st time I got stitches. My thought process at the time was if I grab the grab the blade I might be able to keep it out of chest. I've had a knife pulled on me twice. The 1st time I got lucky and trapped the arm but you are right about the architecture of aggression winning most fights. The man with the icepick grip had me scared though and he was 50lbs smaller than me and I had a hard time doing anything other than holding his arms still but the time I got cut I got cut I full body charged into their chest at the same time of grabbing the blade and luckily I came out alright but their arm was extended towards me. I truly got lucky with the timing. Thanks 👍
This system as I understand it is a form of Mexican Knife fighting. Its a mixture of Spanish Colonial Knife skills, and Indigenous skills from the Aztecs and Aztec descendent tribes like the Hopi, Zuni and Pima. Also some influence from other southern tribes that settled near or in northern Mexico, like the Apache. The Philippines were a Spanish colony too from the 1500s to the very early 1900s, so that may be where the similarities come in. I would assume that a lot of Filipino knife fighting has at least some Spanish influence.
@thomasfreeaswind4922 Ah, Okay. That's what I remember Ed Calderon saying back when I had first heard of it. Maybe my memory failed me. What is Libre comprised of then, if you don't mind me asking?
@@ssthsWhen I was training with the SD group I remember hearing FMA, Western Boxing, and Wing Chun. But it’s not based on technique, more principles like timing, threading, using high low attacks and using the empty hand.
oh, okay, thanks for the info friend. Im gonna have to track down that old Ed Calderon video, and see what he was talking about that I got confused. But regardless, this seems like a neat system.@@Christian.Lee_
Ever ,so lucky to survive the one I didnt even know I was in till it was over ,thanking the lord for my brother seeing what I didnt and literally saving my neck .RIP Crazy Dave .
Awesome video!! Thank you for sharing this! I have a question. You mentioned that you watch a lot of real live knife attack videos. Where do you watch these? TH-cam? I have absolutely no experience with knifework, but I just watch to at least watch how they occur until I can train under a system. Thank you so much for your time!
Yea some are on TH-cam. There’s some guys channels exclusivity dedicated to it. Also if you google live knife attacks some other websites will show you some videos but they are disturbing
Of course every situation varies. However, I think maybe retention is more significant at close quarters. You could have your knife knocked free or, snagged up in clothing or, even just be taken away from you... The rear hand can be directed, protected, and maneuvered around the lead hand. The lead hand can jab, grab, trap, and control or manipulate range, pressure, and striking. It maybe necessary to set up the rear hand to slash and stab. I don't think I would go with a knife as a deterrent ever. If you pull it you hide it in any situation in order to utilize stealth and surprise attack on an unprepared over zealous aggressor. Remember you're not in a movie or trying to impress anyone with your intimidating blade or skills... Although, you could always use it like a kubaton first without baring the blade and still do a lot of damage with the butt on either end. If you pull it to be blade effective then follow it through. No knife welding demo is necessary. 👊💀
Thank you Eli well done salute in the end some one dies or some one ends up in hospital but in this time If I have to use a blade weather I am defender or aggressor I will end up in jail or sued . But I will take that chance to defend my self Your videos are well thought out
I feel the exact same as you.. I'm trying to watch and learn from as much online real knife fighting so i can learn to complete deter that situation before it happens really ... bigg mistake thinking you always will have time to grab your weapon and a lot of these random run up attacks you really dont but there might have been signs to be aware of that could have saved your life. Can you hook me up and point me in the right direction to see more real life knife videos?
2 important knife fights i been in: (1) I was unarmed, i was boxing dude, he didn't do really do anything, he got close and grabbed me like a little kid fight, and i kicked him off of me. I went to straight out my shirts -tank top close fit tee and baggy tee- was dark out too, so very difficult to see. I noticed my shirt was soaking wet!! Sweat, alreasy?! Nah, blood. I looked at dude's hand, and he was holding something. Lol I went nuts. I layed into him with punt kicks and side kicks. He dodged em all, until he backed into a yard light pole, where i kicked him in ribs with everything i had. CRACK! He wasn't having it either: he threw off his coat and grabbed something out of his pocket - idk what it was (keys, Swiss knife??) i felt blood running down my legs. I yelled at em something dumb (you're lucky u got a cheao shot with ur lil knife, or whatever) My friends in the car were wide eyed n yelling at me to get in car. We went to driver's house, were his gf helped me. Wouldn't stop bleeding, plus she put q tip 2/3 deep into my back. F it, i need to go to hospital!! I got right into CAT Scan then back to ER. [DR] "your Kidney was sliced open , you should call youe loved ones now"! What?! Cops came, I said it was some homeless guy. I'm not a rat, and it was mutual combat I didn't call anyone, i was like f it, im ready to go . Hospital called my mother. Having her walk into ER at 3 am wasn't what i wanted! I obviously didnt die. Almost. Doc said: if his knife woudve been 1/4 longer, i wouldn't be talking to u right now. (2). Couple years ago i was at a lady friend's house. A dude that ripped me off while i was in the hospital a few months back ( I got shot in my leg, and wound opened up and blood was spraying everywhere, almost bled out, yadda yadda yadda) anyways; my friend was like " come on you're n..". I was trying not to create a scene, but that broke me I spit in dudes face, he swung, I swung n connected, then he spit at me ( missed) at this point i just wanted him dead ( junky pos loser) i didn't even want to touch him. So out comes Mr.Kershaw, and i went to slash his face. He swung his head last second, BUT, as i was coming northwest to southeast, i caught his neck! I winced, cuz it was buried!!! I pulled it out, knife bloody a lil, i yelled dude " im sorry, STOP"! he charged me, i kicked him down the fn stairs (we were on 2nd floor of apt building). He ran towards his motorcycle n sped off. My lady friend was freaking out: u asshole, y would u do that here, y did u need a fn knife etc etc). She didn't even like him, but her neighbors hated her. I was scared shit less!! I heard his bike wreck a few blocks away ( was midnight or so and in a dead end street so very quite ( I was freaking out: " I'm going to jail, I'm gonna kill my self rathwr than go to jail etc etc) We were waiting for Police to show up, if he lived ling enough to tell somebody or call whoever?? Nothing happened?! He even came back later to her house. He was telling a mutual friend, my knife caught his collars' in coat n sweatshirt, and he was already sweaty from bike ride, so blood was mixed with sweat. I pierced below Caryatid artery down to collarbone n sunk in there I was so fn lucky both time's!! BOTH, times, layered clothes nerfed the knives! Btw, ive been stabbed/and stabbed several other times, if ur lucky, maybe I'll share? ( I tripped on my Guts in one instance after being stabbed) And NO, i dont think im bad ass or whatever, i wish i knew these skills that OP has. That's why im watching em now. Just found it in my stream. So be careful y'all. 20 seconds of bad decisions, will get you 20 year's to life... Or Death. I would be in prison right now thinking all day everyday: " why why why, i could be at home watching YT videos" !?!??!!
I was also impressed by what I saw in libre, much more combat and reality based than the arick fencing and ride the back of the hands crap you see in kali
Almost every video of theirs I've watched teaches effective ways to fight with knives. They also probably will get you a very long prison sentence in most countries on the planet!
Hi Ilan, 1. i think the reason in his fast draw videos, he is using icepick grip while is related to the type of folder he got and the way it sits in the pocket. so perhaps the lesson here is that the way you will use the knife is related to the caring style and the weapon type, and one should practice what he uses. 2. long distance, fencing range knife fighting is street related, I wander what about military situation knife fighting situation. when from some reason you cannot use or don't want to use firearms, and go to cold blade instead. obviously not best situation, however nowadays you will also probably wearing some armor, or maybe the enemy will also will. thanks
This was the point I was about to reply, many blades have a specific trick to opening them, such as the Emerson Wave deploy tab or the thumb pin, which is conducive to having your hand on the blade in the icepick grip to deploy it. Get the blade that deploys in the way you train or train in the blade you have available to you.
The icepick, edge in configuration has nothing to do with the type of folder he is using or how it is being carried. It is based on the pikal grip from various FMA styles that is designed to stab downward & rip out using the stronger back muscles, primarily the lats. I believe it is used mostly in Pekiti Tirsia Kali. This is mirrored in Craig Douglas' ShivWorks techniques & also in Piper, somewhat
regarding brandishing verses drawing and concealing the blade: I think youre looking at things differently than this guy is. Youre more thinking in terms of being actively attacked with a weapon. I think this guy is thinking bigger picture violence. like robbery, kidnapping, intimidation shakedowns, rape etc. he works a lot in mexico and in places where people have a high personal risk, even as civilians. Hence the breaking zipties and all the odd scenario stuff. He works a lot with Ed Calderon, if youve heard of that guy. If not, Ed is a former mexican national police officer, who left the force and became an instructor in escape and evasion tactics, surveillance and security, and self defense/situational awareness for law enforcement, executive and private security, as well as interested civilians. He and Libre run in and out of similar circles.
I know who Ed Calderon is. I’m not against this type of training. It’s just part of the puzzle and not the complete picture which is fine. I’m actually a fan of “specialty” based systems
@inside_fighting I figured you probably knew of him. Ohh, when you put it as "part of the puzzle" I get what you mean. For some reason It didn't click until just now. Thanks for the videos friend. You're right up there with my favorite martial arts youtubers. You might be number one. I like that your able to strike a balance between the important parts of reality based, traditional, and combat sports focused schools of thought. I haven't seen anyone else do it the way you do. I've seen a couple who do alright, and Excell in one area. Armchair Violence is a good example. But you seem to kinda "get it" across the board.
@@ssths very honored to hear that man. Very glad you found the channel and comments like that really motivate me to keep making more videos so it’s really appreciated
Oh, I wish you’d have done a more updated video… These videos you’re showing many of are over 11 years old. The art has evolved so far beyond this now. Way more rapid direct and violent .
Very possible. As i said it seems that all knife fighting systems eventually overlap in movement. Aka whether it’s Filipino, American, Haitian, the end result is somewhat similar
Bapp's background is FMA. I don't believe there's any connection to Piper in terms of origin. He talks about it here: th-cam.com/video/Nqf_cUXCbgE/w-d-xo.html
Your assumption would be wrong. The icepick grip, with the edge facing in, is called the pikal grip in FMA & is designed to stab down & rip out as the blade is retracted. I believe it is used primarily in Pekiti Tirsia Kali. There are some similarities to Piper, but it is an independently developed group of movements & attacks native to the South African criminal element, from the street & in prison.
The fact that I’ve taught people in the military, police, have 25 years experience in Filipino arts and trained and grew up directly with one of the military trainers and 5 time world champion in weapons comps in the Philippines… And yes… that i have TH-cam channel. But congrats on leaving a comment 🤷🏽♂️
I am a fan of Libre, but I feel like many people misinterpret Libre’s intent. To me, as someone who is a fan and not a member of Libre, I see it as taking the initiative away from the attacker. As a defender you have realized you are fucked. I think the reviewer misses the point Libre isn't meant for an attacker who would be intimidated by taking your knife out.
When I think of knife fighting I feel your in a bad place and should prolly have a concealed caryy on you, fortunately I have never been in those places but no way I ging to some place were they fighting with knives without a concealed carry.
Libre is based on two fundamental flaws❗ 1️⃣They threw the most important concept of weaponized fighting "keeping distance and defanging the snake" out of the window 2️⃣They reduced their knife work to mostly deal with surprise ambushes under the wrong assumption that they could either get their knife out quick enough when totally surprised by an attacker or that having the knife already drawn in your hand before a fight would not lead to a life sentance behind bars
Thank you so much for this video and your thoughtful insights! I do wholeheartedly agree that some of the traps you see in our older videos aren’t the best options and as our work has evolved over the years a lot of that has been omitted and a larger focus has been placed on rapid fire stabbing.
The hostage stuff was part of a series of antiabduction workshops we did in collaboration with Ed’s Manifesto down in Tijuana.
I’ve been pretty bad about uploading our more current work onto TH-cam, but we post content daily on Instagram.
Once again, thank you so much for this video!
Scott
If you ever want to come on the channel and be interviewed let me know! 🙏🏼
@@inside_fightingplease, do.
@@inside_fighting from my view the reason for pull the knife and hiding it is to have it if ready in the yelling phase it might not get dangerous but just in case draw and hide the weapon
Yeah I agree. When I pull out my knife I want intimidation and distance. Almost 50 years old and grown up in Detroit I've seen a lot of and been in a lot of scuffles of this sort. There's never been a situation where I didn't see it coming. So situational awareness goes without saying. Practicing your draw to strike is crucial and striking first essential.
I didn't watch the video yet, but based on your experience, is drawing the knife/intimidation enough to deter the threat?
@@notannie4798it’s either enough or it’s not but the end result if it’s not is the same which is an attack being initiated… even if it dissuades 30% of people that’s a huge asset.
It also make it easier to cut stab the attacker as they come in and limits the kind of aggressiveness they can assert
@@notannie4798 I've had to do it three times and yes it worked every time. YOU have to be intimidating, the blade is a force multiplier. Make them believe that they are going to get hurt. Having a blade pulled on you is pretty scary.
I’m 51 and group in Detroit as well where are you from in Detroit? Where did you go to school etc. My dad was also Detroit police officer.
Hey there. Not to get too personal but I grew up around I-96 and Outer Dr. What they used to to call Brightmore. I'm kicking it down in Florida these days. It's nice to hear from another survivor.👊
I trained a lot of years in the last century. Mostly dirty Chinese derived street boxing and FMA. 100% found things to match your analysis. My Sifu and I never could have survived each other, barring a miraculous first shot! If the young folks came to me anymore, I’d recommend they researched if you teach. Scientifically minded analysis like this makes the most useful video! Carry on!
I've trained with them, their focus is on military, LEO and PMCs so different situations and outlooks.
Yes but Leo’s don’t carry blades typically. I’m a big fan of baton vs knife tactics though.
I'm a LEO and everyone I work with has at least one knife hidden on themselves often two or more counting neck knifes and such.
Yes, Technically not part of your issued kit (equipment give to you by your employer) but still carried.
By the way, Love your channel.
I love reality base systems. At first, I was kinda in the fantasy about martial arts and the systems, but as time went on and I was lucky enough to receive training from an actual fighter; I started to look at ever other martial arts closely and how their application can be used for the streets. And this art, Libre Knife, is another art I can definitely appreciate.
I agree with your analysis, but I was always taught to not let the enemy see the knife. It should be felt rather than seen. I can see some advantages of letting him see the knife. That could be risky. I’ll have to think about that! Thanks Jared
Once again, awesome take on another, seemingly, incredible fighting system. You are THE ONLY person who addresses the subtle nuances in fighting that are only recognized by real fighters. At times, i have questioned myself about consuming too much time on many of the smaller subjects you have brought flrward in your videos. Simply because they were not things openly or commonly addressed by any of my teachers or elswhere in the world of fighting. Things exactly like deployment of your bade, lead hand vs rear hand, blade orientation, etc. are, again, only relevant to practitioners who actually do this for real - in preparation for real encounters. Most people, even so called experts, have no clue what you’re talking about nor care to dig this far into the subtleties of techniques and strategies. I admit that this made it easy for me to dismiss many of the idiots who blindly give out advice over the internet without coming close to addressing the horrors of real fights, as well as the myriad of closed minded instructors who simply regurgitate strictly what their teachers taufht them without questioning the real issues confronted when pressire testing their fighting principles. Personally, i have come to the same conclusions you have in regards to when to use a rear handed,dagger down grip...and its primarily only when the enemy hasn’t deployed his weapon yet (the only other time is when there are muLtiple attackers who are positioned at different angles around you which is only in the initial phase of the fight and really only amatter of perspective and will quickly be adjusted to by good footwork or manipulation of one attacker to line up with or shield against the attacker on the weak side). I cant thank you enough for crushing my belief that i stood alone with my thoughts on all of these issues you bring up in this and many of your videos. Arrogance is something i detest in the martial arts and i think i had begun to slip down that road myself before finally hearing someone else focus on these things. I also hate people who ride on the coat tails of their teachers and their prowess and achievements, yet never themselves ever fight. But thats for another discussion. My hats to you, my friend. I hope you can showcase many other legit practitioners and systems as you have done here. I look forward to learning as much as i can because of the exposure and platform on which you address the arts. Best of luck. OSS!
Look up Ed Calderon, he's ran the same employment circles I have. Ed trained with Scott & Scott trained in Sayoc & Piper, he trains quite a few military types & contractors hence the counter kidnapping events he & Ed have put on, similar to a couple I attended when I worked in Mexico.
Libre practice utilizes highly flexible knives, allowing for forceful strikes during training, i think that's pretty unique.
It really makes a difference, specially because Filipino martial arts as I've experienced had a mindset of longer weapons (even their knives were huge for modern standards)
In doce pares we used 5 inch blades typically. In ilistrisimo we either used machete/sword or a knife but the knives were short. This may just have been my experience though.
Nice Libre and Piper is my 2systams that I follow.
A knife is one of the most fearful weapons a person could ever encounter! Even the best defense is hopeless. Knife to knife is lunacy. The first strike, as the Libre teach just ‘might’ be a winner though!
Cool video! Another knife art that I haven't seen been discussed or covered much is Apache Knife Fighting done by Robert Redfeather. Would love to hear your thoughts
I’ll deep dive in to it
Thank you Ilan for another video. Great stuff brother!
My knife fighting training consists of doing sprints without warming up.
Then your training is vain, for you cannot always run away from the aggressor. They are predators and are usually very careful about the timing and the place of an attack.
Check out piper system also
The reason balintawak trains close range is because when your eyes get used to it it makes long rang easy to see so the close range makes long range easier
Except balintiwak Escrima players are fond of grabbing the stick which instills bad habits cause grabbing the blade will cost fingers
Great video! We'd had never heard of Libre Knife Fighting until we hosted an Ed's Manifesto course (Ed Calderon) and he mentioned them. We really like the practicality of this system and hope to host a course from Libre Fighting someday in the future. Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) knife training is great, but it appears as Libre fills the gaps in regards to reality self-defense training. We typically recommend FMA knife training and then supplementing your knife training with courses from places like Libre Fighting, Martial Blade Concepts (MDC) and AMOK.
Where can I get information on the last two systems you mentioned MDC and specifically AMOK
@@WierdojamesBoth have an online presence and offer distance learning options.
@@Wierdojames I don't think I can put a link on here, but I did a search for "amok knife fighting" and it was the first result for me. I did the same for "Martial Blade Concepts". As @wizardoftas7779 pointed out, both have distance learning options, which I'm interested in trying out.
@@GreenOpsInc just checked out your channel. It’s very cool. Gonna give it a sub
@@inside_fightingThank you so much. Really enjoy your videos.
I really appreciate your channel, with your open minded explorations. I'd like to add my take on knife fighting & its many styles. I think most would agree on 2 things: there is not 1 style or knife that is perfect for all scenarios & that in a knife vs knife encounter, everyone loses!! Facing a person with a knife, & not able to retreat, I would much rather be armed with a stick, jacket, belt etc, than with a knife (anything that would help me maintain some distance). Most encounters very quickly end up in a very close, uncomfortable range, where a small knife held in a reverse grip is effective & just might save your life. It still must be carried in a way that can be accessed quickly, under duress. That's how I see Libre being super effective, much like Craig Douglas' ShivWorks, Piper & especially Pekiti Tirsia's pikal techniques. To my eyes, those are all based on natural, gross motor movements, the kind that are usable once the adrenaline dump hits. Lastly, a bigger fixed blade knife is just not realistic for most of us, for daily concealed carry, not to mention the legal ramifications! I am certainly not an expert, but it seems like common sense to me. Thanks again for your great content!
Nice video and good information on the distance of gun vis a-viz a Knife.
Also, to point out an observation- the solo drill looks a lot like the 52 hand block knife drills...at least from the few videos I saw
The problem with deterrence could be the escalation factor. My blade (or gun) comes out and he appears unarmed, I may see his pistol come out. The reverse is true. People aren’t always scared into intimidation. Sometimes they’re scared into violent action.
If a knife comes out and is threatening me, and I I can’t safely retreat and I have a gun, I’m shooting. The 21 foot rule applies…sometimes. Kelly McCann debunked it somewhat.
If I’m not carrying a pistol and a young, strong or big (or all three) empty handed attacker comes at me, drawing and cutting like in Libre might work and is justifiable in some jurisdictions given my small size, old age and arthritis.
If I draw a blade first as a deterrent before any clear attack, my life gets complicated in the aftermath. It gets REALLY complicated if he escalates and draws a gun. I brought the proverbial knife to the gunfight.
The various cell phones or security cams videoing the incident might not be kind, regardless.
Great video. Yes, Babb does have an extensive Filipino background, along with boxing and other forms of traditional martial arts. Libre is mostly based on fma and boxing. It focuses on small blades because that’s what people are more likely to carry so there’s not a lot of largo Mano involved.
That is kali philippino
I'm not an expert on Libre, but has been studying as much as I can since the middle of the year. I plan on taking online classes with one of the main representatives of the system in Brazil, but that hasn't come off yet (I'm studying for a exam so I don't have much time for anything else).
That being said...I noticed that Libre has a lot of emphasis on preemptive (like Urban Combatives mentality) and counter-ambush tactics. The "strike first" and the "I screwed up my situational awareness" scenarios...which are awesome, IMHO. Once in a while, every one of us will be off guard, drunk, relaxed with out families, on a NPE surrounded with security, sleeping, sited on a bus, sited on a train, etc. etc. and what could grant me that a knife ambush won't happen in these moments? I mean, I don't have enemies or reasons to believe that someone would premeditate and attack me like this, but what about the nutjobs that appear on the media randomly ambushing people with knives?
Also, a lot of police officers, security guards and..."very confident" people...are really close to the agressor when the later pulls (or tries to pull) a knife. So one should train to identify the threat and strike first, before the draw. Here in Brazil it's legal to strike first IF the attack is imminent, at least.
So I believe Libre is fundamental for anybody, but specially fundamental for police officers (and I'm studying to be one right now), security guards, etc.
Not criticising the video, which was awesome. Only stating a point.
I have loved a pocket knife from my boy scout days,and I never stopped carrying one ever since.
I have grabbed a knife once and it was the 1st time I got stitches. My thought process at the time was if I grab the grab the blade I might be able to keep it out of chest. I've had a knife pulled on me twice. The 1st time I got lucky and trapped the arm but you are right about the architecture of aggression winning most fights. The man with the icepick grip had me scared though and he was 50lbs smaller than me and I had a hard time doing anything other than holding his arms still but the time I got cut I got cut I full body charged into their chest at the same time of grabbing the blade and luckily I came out alright but their arm was extended towards me. I truly got lucky with the timing. Thanks 👍
This system as I understand it is a form of Mexican Knife fighting. Its a mixture of Spanish Colonial Knife skills, and Indigenous skills from the Aztecs and Aztec descendent tribes like the Hopi, Zuni and Pima. Also some influence from other southern tribes that settled near or in northern Mexico, like the Apache.
The Philippines were a Spanish colony too from the 1500s to the very early 1900s, so that may be where the similarities come in. I would assume that a lot of Filipino knife fighting has at least some Spanish influence.
I study Libre, that's not even remotely true.
@thomasfreeaswind4922 Ah, Okay. That's what I remember Ed Calderon saying back when I had first heard of it. Maybe my memory failed me.
What is Libre comprised of then, if you don't mind me asking?
@@ssthsWhen I was training with the SD group I remember hearing FMA, Western Boxing, and Wing Chun. But it’s not based on technique, more principles like timing, threading, using high low attacks and using the empty hand.
oh, okay, thanks for the info friend. Im gonna have to track down that old Ed Calderon video, and see what he was talking about that I got confused. But regardless, this seems like a neat system.@@Christian.Lee_
I so don't want to get in a knife fight.
Ever ,so lucky to survive the one I didnt even know I was in till it was over ,thanking the lord for my brother seeing what I didnt and literally saving my neck .RIP Crazy Dave .
Awesome video!! Thank you for sharing this! I have a question. You mentioned that you watch a lot of real live knife attack videos. Where do you watch these? TH-cam? I have absolutely no experience with knifework, but I just watch to at least watch how they occur until I can train under a system. Thank you so much for your time!
Yea some are on TH-cam. There’s some guys channels exclusivity dedicated to it. Also if you google live knife attacks some other websites will show you some videos but they are disturbing
Of course every situation varies. However, I think maybe retention is more significant at close quarters. You could have your knife knocked free or, snagged up in clothing or, even just be taken away from you...
The rear hand can be directed, protected, and maneuvered around the lead hand. The lead hand can jab, grab, trap, and control or manipulate range, pressure, and striking.
It maybe necessary to set up the rear hand to slash and stab.
I don't think I would go with a knife as a deterrent ever. If you pull it you hide it in any situation in order to utilize stealth and surprise attack on an unprepared over zealous aggressor. Remember you're not in a movie or trying to impress anyone with your intimidating blade or skills...
Although, you could always use it like a kubaton first without baring the blade and still do a lot of damage with the butt on either end.
If you pull it to be blade effective then follow it through. No knife welding demo is necessary. 👊💀
Holy crap is that Scott who once trained at Natural Spirit with Kelly ?
Thank you Eli well done salute in the end some one dies or some one ends up in hospital but in this time If I have to use a blade weather I am defender or aggressor I will end up in jail or sued . But I will take that chance to defend my self Your videos are well thought out
I feel the exact same as you.. I'm trying to watch and learn from as much online real knife fighting so i can learn to complete deter that situation before it happens really ... bigg mistake thinking you always will have time to grab your weapon and a lot of these random run up attacks you really dont but there might have been signs to be aware of that could have saved your life. Can you hook me up and point me in the right direction to see more real life knife videos?
2 important knife fights i been in:
(1) I was unarmed, i was boxing dude, he didn't do really do anything, he got close and grabbed me like a little kid fight, and i kicked him off of me. I went to straight out my shirts -tank top close fit tee and baggy tee- was dark out too, so very difficult to see. I noticed my shirt was soaking wet!! Sweat, alreasy?! Nah, blood. I looked at dude's hand, and he was holding something. Lol
I went nuts. I layed into him with punt kicks and side kicks. He dodged em all, until he backed into a yard light pole, where i kicked him in ribs with everything i had. CRACK!
He wasn't having it either: he threw off his coat and grabbed something out of his pocket - idk what it was (keys, Swiss knife??) i felt blood running down my legs.
I yelled at em something dumb (you're lucky u got a cheao shot with ur lil knife, or whatever)
My friends in the car were wide eyed n yelling at me to get in car.
We went to driver's house, were his gf helped me. Wouldn't stop bleeding, plus she put q tip 2/3 deep into my back.
F it, i need to go to hospital!! I got right into CAT Scan then back to ER. [DR] "your Kidney was sliced open , you should call youe loved ones now"!
What?! Cops came, I said it was some homeless guy. I'm not a rat, and it was mutual combat
I didn't call anyone, i was like f it, im ready to go .
Hospital called my mother. Having her walk into ER at 3 am wasn't what i wanted!
I obviously didnt die. Almost. Doc said: if his knife woudve been 1/4 longer, i wouldn't be talking to u right now.
(2). Couple years ago i was at a lady friend's house. A dude that ripped me off while i was in the hospital a few months back ( I got shot in my leg, and wound opened up and blood was spraying everywhere, almost bled out, yadda yadda yadda) anyways; my friend was like " come on you're n..". I was trying not to create a scene, but that broke me
I spit in dudes face, he swung, I swung n connected, then he spit at me ( missed) at this point i just wanted him dead ( junky pos loser) i didn't even want to touch him. So out comes Mr.Kershaw, and i went to slash his face. He swung his head last second, BUT, as i was coming northwest to southeast, i caught his neck!
I winced, cuz it was buried!!! I pulled it out, knife bloody a lil, i yelled dude " im sorry, STOP"! he charged me, i kicked him down the fn stairs (we were on 2nd floor of apt building). He ran towards his motorcycle n sped off.
My lady friend was freaking out: u asshole, y would u do that here, y did u need a fn knife etc etc). She didn't even like him, but her neighbors hated her.
I was scared shit less!! I heard his bike wreck a few blocks away ( was midnight or so and in a dead end street so very quite (
I was freaking out: " I'm going to jail, I'm gonna kill my self rathwr than go to jail etc etc)
We were waiting for Police to show up, if he lived ling enough to tell somebody or call whoever??
Nothing happened?!
He even came back later to her house. He was telling a mutual friend, my knife caught his collars' in coat n sweatshirt, and he was already sweaty from bike ride, so blood was mixed with sweat. I pierced below Caryatid artery down to collarbone n sunk in there
I was so fn lucky both time's!!
BOTH, times, layered clothes nerfed the knives!
Btw, ive been stabbed/and stabbed several other times, if ur lucky, maybe I'll share? ( I tripped on my Guts in one instance after being stabbed)
And NO, i dont think im bad ass or whatever, i wish i knew these skills that OP has. That's why im watching em now. Just found it in my stream.
So be careful y'all. 20 seconds of bad decisions, will get you 20 year's to life... Or Death. I would be in prison right now thinking all day everyday: " why why why, i could be at home watching YT videos" !?!??!!
Have you ever seen the Apache system for knife fighting? If you're in to blade arts, its worth looking up. Its an interesting contrast to FMA.
I agree it’s too situation specific. I prefer to focus on footwork and the ability to KO attackers through strikes, trips, and throws.
I was also impressed by what I saw in libre, much more combat and reality based than the arick fencing and ride the back of the hands crap you see in kali
Good breakdown and analysis like always. What do you think about Krav Maga ?
Hey brother, love the chan. I believe it was Leo (Gaje) that presented that 21' rule initially I believe.
The a is for clarifying. I remember seeing guro dan running at an armed assailant in a demo so always assumed it was him
it's been awhile since I've seen it, and with the way the stories always morph, was probably both lol@@inside_fighting
Call it what you want,but this is a kali philippino!
I have a few of their DVDs.
Eli do you like the idea of two pencils held together with ranger bands as a weapon.
Almost every video of theirs I've watched teaches effective ways to fight with knives. They also probably will get you a very long prison sentence in most countries on the planet!
Close quarters is the way, if I have range I'd run.
Hi Ilan,
1. i think the reason in his fast draw videos, he is using icepick grip while is related to the type of folder he got and the way it sits in the pocket. so perhaps the lesson here is that the way you will use the knife is related to the caring style and the weapon type, and one should practice what he uses.
2. long distance, fencing range knife fighting is street related, I wander what about military situation knife fighting situation. when from some reason you cannot use or don't want to use firearms, and go to cold blade instead. obviously not best situation, however nowadays you will also probably wearing some armor, or maybe the enemy will also will.
thanks
This was the point I was about to reply, many blades have a specific trick to opening them, such as the Emerson Wave deploy tab or the thumb pin, which is conducive to having your hand on the blade in the icepick grip to deploy it. Get the blade that deploys in the way you train or train in the blade you have available to you.
or train the blade that suits your fighting style or caring style the best :)
@@EpherosAldor
The icepick, edge in configuration has nothing to do with the type of folder he is using or how it is being carried. It is based on the pikal grip from various FMA styles that is designed to stab downward & rip out using the stronger back muscles, primarily the lats. I believe it is used mostly in Pekiti Tirsia Kali. This is mirrored in Craig Douglas' ShivWorks techniques & also in Piper, somewhat
Please take a look and give a comment on Urban knife fighting
regarding brandishing verses drawing and concealing the blade: I think youre looking at things differently than this guy is.
Youre more thinking in terms of being actively attacked with a weapon.
I think this guy is thinking bigger picture violence. like robbery, kidnapping, intimidation shakedowns, rape etc.
he works a lot in mexico and in places where people have a high personal risk, even as civilians. Hence the breaking zipties and all the odd scenario stuff.
He works a lot with Ed Calderon, if youve heard of that guy. If not, Ed is a former mexican national police officer, who left the force and became an instructor in escape and evasion tactics, surveillance and security, and self defense/situational awareness for law enforcement, executive and private security, as well as interested civilians. He and Libre run in and out of similar circles.
I know who Ed Calderon is. I’m not against this type of training. It’s just part of the puzzle and not the complete picture which is fine. I’m actually a fan of “specialty” based systems
@inside_fighting I figured you probably knew of him. Ohh, when you put it as "part of the puzzle" I get what you mean. For some reason It didn't click until just now.
Thanks for the videos friend. You're right up there with my favorite martial arts youtubers. You might be number one.
I like that your able to strike a balance between the important parts of reality based, traditional, and combat sports focused schools of thought.
I haven't seen anyone else do it the way you do. I've seen a couple who do alright, and Excell in one area. Armchair Violence is a good example. But you seem to kinda "get it" across the board.
@@ssths very honored to hear that man. Very glad you found the channel and comments like that really motivate me to keep making more videos so it’s really appreciated
Hit hard,,,hit fast,,,hit first & hit last.
Oh, I wish you’d have done a more updated video… These videos you’re showing many of are over 11 years old. The art has evolved so far beyond this now. Way more rapid direct and violent .
Some of the videos are new and some are old. I went on their website and tried to find the ones that captured the movements as clean as possible.
I'm pretty sure libre fighting has more connections to Piper system than anything else.
Very possible. As i said it seems that all knife fighting systems eventually overlap in movement. Aka whether it’s Filipino, American, Haitian, the end result is somewhat similar
Bapp's background is FMA. I don't believe there's any connection to Piper in terms of origin. He talks about it here: th-cam.com/video/Nqf_cUXCbgE/w-d-xo.html
Your assumption would be wrong. The icepick grip, with the edge facing in, is called the pikal grip in FMA & is designed to stab down & rip out as the blade is retracted. I believe it is used primarily in Pekiti Tirsia Kali.
There are some similarities to Piper, but it is an independently developed group of movements & attacks native to the South African criminal element, from the street & in prison.
I'm curious as to what qualifies this guy as an expert? The fact that he has a TH-cam channel
The fact that I’ve taught people in the military, police, have 25 years experience in Filipino arts and trained and grew up directly with one of the military trainers and 5 time world champion in weapons comps in the Philippines…
And yes… that i have TH-cam channel.
But congrats on leaving a comment 🤷🏽♂️
Look up rope dart
I am a fan of Libre, but I feel like many people misinterpret Libre’s intent. To me, as someone who is a fan and not a member of Libre, I see it as taking the initiative away from the attacker. As a defender you have realized you are fucked. I think the reviewer misses the point Libre isn't meant for an attacker who would be intimidated by taking your knife out.
I mention this… hence it being one part of the puzzle and filling that gap. I spoke about that in the video.
When I think of knife fighting I feel your in a bad place and should prolly have a concealed caryy on you, fortunately I have never been in those places but no way I ging to some place were they fighting with knives without a concealed carry.
Where is the sparing? Don't
Libre is based on two fundamental flaws❗
1️⃣They threw the most important concept of weaponized fighting "keeping distance and defanging the snake" out of the window
2️⃣They reduced their knife work to mostly deal with surprise ambushes under the wrong assumption that they could either get their knife out quick enough when totally surprised by an attacker or that having the knife already drawn in your hand before a fight would not lead to a life sentance behind bars
Also its a VERY BAD habit to constantly have students train on unarmed opponents (and even posting it on social media then)