I will admit I'm a novice mechanic. But that gives me more reason to double check my engine build. Besides the video is free all the parts and engine very expensive. Thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge. Blessings
For most mild street engine builds, this step is really not necessary, if u dont have an adjustable timing gear set degreeing the cam is completely pointless, and u might say well it's to verify the cam specs, well sometimes the cam will not match the advertised specs intentionally, my buddy bought a comp cam for his pontiac engine and the cam did not match the specs on the card and he called them and spoke with their tech support and they told him that yes his reading are correct and that everything is right and to ignore what the card says and he had no trouble. So my rule of thumb is that if its a really mild or stock engine, just put the cam in dot to dot and dont sweat it, this step is really only for max effort high lift and duration and engines that have really close piston to valve clearance.
I've never actually done this operation and I understand perfectly, there are basically 2 purposes for this procedure. First, to verify the specs of the camshaft lobes are correct, since defects or a mis-packaged part are always possible. Second, to verify the correct timing relationship between the camshaft, the timing chain set, and the crankshaft. The camshaft supplier has no control over the accuracy of the keyway location on the crankshaft, and the timing set (chain/sprocket or gears) may be from a third party source as well. Even if the timing locators of all 3 parts (crankshaft, timing set, camshaft) are in spec, there are still manufacturing tolerances allowed to each respective locating feature which could stack up in one direction to create enough total error in the complete assembly to require adjustment with an offset bushing on the cam sprocket/gear locator or alternate crank sprocket/gear keyway. Also, just my opinion, I think it might be good for a street engine that will see a lot of mileage to install a chain timing set for 1 or 2 deg advance to compensate for inevitable chain stretch as the engine is driven a few thousand miles. Just an opinion.
Nice video,...very straight forward !! Simply put, if the cam isn't actually up to the specs on the cam card, KNOWING so would allow you to adjust it into specs (if you have an adjustable cam key on the crank gear) before you lock it down and discover that performance isn't as you expected. Thanks again.
Great video for showing how to degree, this step will be hands down one of the most important power making steps that we can do in building a successful combination. Thanks for the help Shakey
The purpose of degreeing a cam (or any other measurement) is to achieve maximum HP and durability. Engines have tolerances that must be adhered to and the more precise you are with those tolerances the better off you are. Anybody can put an engine together and have it run. Building a reliable/durable engine is about precision and attention to detail. If this procedure seems difficult, remember everything requires practice to become proficient. If you expect all of that info to stick the first time, try and recall how education works - repetition. His procedure is sound, so perhaps watch several times. Engine building could be similar to learning a foreign language, either requires practice.
Might want to let the people who truly understand handle the technical stuff. But, for a do it yourself and stock replacement, provided you received the correct bumpstick to begin with, yes just line it up per manufacturer instructions. You be just fine.
Question when u install the degree wheel post lining up the cam and crank sprockets marks straight up, is the wheel not also positioned at TDC and the pointer installed and adjusted to also be at 0 TDC prior to obtaining or determining "true TDC"?
WOW!!! this is SO confusing!!! Seems kind of pointless too...I mean it seems that degree(ing) a cam is just to see if the manufacture is lying about cam specs or if they're being honest.
***** After spending $1300 in tools to check my engine specs. I have found the people that ground my camshaft were .001 out of spec, a cam bearing was .002 too tight which would have left me .000 oil clearance, and clevit bearings were .001 undersized when it stated on their site they were standard. Everybody always has time to fix mistakes, but not everybody takes the time to look for mistakes.
sorry to be off topic but does someone know of a trick to log back into an Instagram account?? I was stupid lost the login password. I would love any tips you can offer me
@Westley Philip Thanks so much for your reply. I got to the site through google and Im trying it out atm. Looks like it's gonna take a while so I will reply here later with my results.
+Sam O No, the cam card should always match up to what you ordered. In other words, it should match up to the cam specs in the catalog when you ordered your cam. Degreeing the cam really is to check and make sure the cam was ground properly. There are several steps and it can be confusing, but since the cam is so important to your engine's power and throttle response, it's generally worth the effort.
I've rebuilt a 5.3l l59 out of a 03 Yukon, going into a 69 camaro. The darn thing hasent really started yet. Did install a summit racing camshaft with new springs. After reviewing my video of the build I didn't degree the cam. Did reach TDC and lined up the dots . Every video I've seen on degree caming shows the cam spot on when you have TDC. Doesn't seem worth doing if you reached TDC.
Just want to add my two cents in response to many of the comments below, for what it’s worth, which is likely less than $0.02… Engine builders vary greatly in terms of talent and competence. Two builders assembling the same parts, on the same engine, may produce a final product whose power can vary by up to 20 hp more, or which may be more reliable over time. Steps like this are a critical part of the blueprinting process. If that level of meticulousness isn’t something you’re up for, do yourself a favor and find someone competent and reputable who is up for it. Otherwise, you’re rolling the dice on a very expensive piece of machinery. In short, take pride in what you’re doing, or don’t do it at all. Installing a cam using the dot-dot method, as most manufacturers recommend, will get you close. However, because everything in an engine has manufacturing tolerances, you may find yourself in a situation in which those tolerances coincidentally line up against you. Moving your timing chain one tooth in either direction may change the timing by 6 degrees, so you will need an adjustable timing set if you’re really trying to do it right. They’re really not very expensive. If your cam installation results in the timing being off by 2-3 degrees, that may not seem like much. But it will mean that your intake or exhaust valves may be slightly held open at a time when they should be closed, resulting in a slight loss of compression, as well as a loss of volumetric efficiency, power and fuel economy. Degreeing a cam is about verifying the numbers on the cam card, as well as ensuring that your timing is, in fact, set correctly. If you’re just replacing the cam and nothing else, this may seem like an unnecessary step. But if you are replacing a cam, lifters, pushrods, rockers, valves or any combination of those parts, it is cheap insurance. This video, like many others, goes through the steps very quickly. Unless you’re standing in front of your engine, with the tools in hand for the job, it can be easy to be intimidated by the task. But if you take your time, it really is not much more difficult than understanding the concepts and doing basic math. It is not wizardry, gentlemen. This is exactly what is so great about TH-cam. So pause the video every 2-3 seconds if you have to, but give it a shot and show some damn perseverance. Or pay someone with more patience who had to do that when they first learned how to do this stuff. Now please excuse me while I try to make sure that my engine build doesn’t grenade within 30 seconds of my first startup. Fingers crossed, like the rest of us band of misfits…
+Stephen Salamone If you are talking about getting the rocker arm tip centered over the top of the valve stem, yes, changing the pushrod length can help dial that in. Thanks
Thank You . So now I realize the it is a combination of rocker and push rod length to dial in the degrees angle . I was given a 302 ( 1985 mustang engine ) cam and roller rockers was told that it is 400 hp but when I took the pan off the rods did not look like they were balanced . I took my 1965 mustang pan off to fit the 1957 ford ranchero 1985 pan and oil pick up did not fit the cross member . engine full of carbon to big of jets ( 4180 double pumper Holley) not taken apart may be a blown power valve. I worked in a custom car shop for 17 Years . I have never indexed a engine, they were bought engines.
What if I'm rebuilding (rings and mains) a used engine that the cam looks fresh (looks like it had a recent rebuild at some point, previous owner didnt know history)? Can I still degree the cam without a cam card?
@thehorsepowermonster if you dont degree your cam and just set it at zero with the timing chain like it would be stock will it not want to stay at idle. i think im having this problem
Unless there is a machining error or some other problem a cam installed straight up--or dot-to-dot on the timing chain--should be OK. If your engine doesn't want to idle my first thought would be the carburetor (adjust the idle screws) or timing (is it too advanced?). Have you checked those?
if you dont degree your cam and just set it at zero with the timing chain like it would be stock will it not want to stay at idle. i think im having this problem please message me or reply
Those piston stops didnt work for my engine. I am running edelbrock heads and the angle of the spark plug hole makes it impossible for the piston and stop to meet.
The advertised 1.52 rocker ratio is NOT an accurate number to use. The ratio changes during the rotational arc of the rocker arm. The advertised 1.52 ratio is only an average. Actual rocker arm ratio can be determined with a dial indicator. Push rod length also affects rocker arm ratio.
So what's the point of all of it is it verification if the lobe opening and all that you know is this accurate I mean what's the what's all the points would I know I'm confused can someone explain to me and you have to readjust your time and after you do all that I'm lost their
The main point is to verify that the cam is opening and closing the valves at the appropriate time. If it isn't you can advance or retard the timing to correct it. Thanks for watching.
I've watched MANY videos on how to degree a cam, and NOT ONE of them shows what to do if the #'s are wrong. Point is, why would we, the engine builders that purchased a high-quality cam from a reputable manufacturer, have to double-check the accuracy of the cam manufacturer? Can't they be trusted?
The valve spring compressor I use there is made by Moroso. I picked it up from my local speed shop, but you can probably get one--or one like it--from Summitracing.com or goodson.com
I was expecting detailed explanation of the pros and cons of advancing or retarding the cam shaft for different drivability characteristics and performance. I was not expecting a video on how to tell if your cam really is what the manufacturer claims.
After finding roller rockers sold as 1.5 ratio actually range from 1.4 to 1.6, this method of finding 0.050" is not good. You should always go right to the lifter for finding the 0.050" lift.
Greetings friend, I'm from Venezuela, I would like your council to put the engine in time, getting the best that I can with what I have installed, I thank you for your help, a hug brother. Engine ls2 6.0 camera l92 70cc Here we use 95 octane gasoline -Competencia Cams 13702-kit mm Series LS retro-fit Trunion Kit -Computer Cams 7106 Adjustable Keyway Billet Timing Set for GM LS -Brian Tooley Racing pr7400312 - 16 piece of Cromoly Pushrods 7,400 "Long 5 / diameter of 16" .080 " -Chevy Gold Dual Valve Kit 660 Max Lift - BTR LS1 / 2 STG IV Cam 235/242 .621 "/.592 111 + 3
I will admit I'm a novice mechanic. But that gives me more reason to double check my engine build. Besides the video is free all the parts and engine very expensive.
Thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge.
Blessings
Wow, I really thought I was going to REALLY learn something here.
easy? are you friggen kidding me! this reminds me of my Calculus class, definetily not easy
For most mild street engine builds, this step is really not necessary, if u dont have an adjustable timing gear set degreeing the cam is completely pointless, and u might say well it's to verify the cam specs, well sometimes the cam will not match the advertised specs intentionally, my buddy bought a comp cam for his pontiac engine and the cam did not match the specs on the card and he called them and spoke with their tech support and they told him that yes his reading are correct and that everything is right and to ignore what the card says and he had no trouble. So my rule of thumb is that if its a really mild or stock engine, just put the cam in dot to dot and dont sweat it, this step is really only for max effort high lift and duration and engines that have really close piston to valve clearance.
Thank you for clearing this up
I'll begin to install my cam in 50 years
I've never actually done this operation and I understand perfectly, there are basically 2 purposes for this procedure. First, to verify the specs of the camshaft lobes are correct, since defects or a mis-packaged part are always possible. Second, to verify the correct timing relationship between the camshaft, the timing chain set, and the crankshaft.
The camshaft supplier has no control over the accuracy of the keyway location on the crankshaft, and the timing set (chain/sprocket or gears) may be from a third party source as well. Even if the timing locators of all 3 parts (crankshaft, timing set, camshaft) are in spec, there are still manufacturing tolerances allowed to each respective locating feature which could stack up in one direction to create enough total error in the complete assembly to require adjustment with an offset bushing on the cam sprocket/gear locator or alternate crank sprocket/gear keyway.
Also, just my opinion, I think it might be good for a street engine that will see a lot of mileage to install a chain timing set for 1 or 2 deg advance to compensate for inevitable chain stretch as the engine is driven a few thousand miles. Just an opinion.
Nice video,...very straight forward !! Simply put, if the cam isn't actually up to the specs on the cam card, KNOWING so would allow you to adjust it into specs (if you have an adjustable cam key on the crank gear) before you lock it down and discover that performance isn't as you expected. Thanks again.
Great video for showing how to degree, this step will be hands down one of the most important power making steps that we can do in building a successful combination. Thanks for the help Shakey
Looks pretty easy, good explanation.
Thanks! And thanks for watching!
Bro trying to learn how to degree a cam now I really need help
The purpose of degreeing a cam (or any other measurement) is to achieve maximum HP and durability. Engines have tolerances that must be adhered to and the more precise you are with those tolerances the better off you are. Anybody can put an engine together and have it run. Building a reliable/durable engine is about precision and attention to detail. If this procedure seems difficult, remember everything requires practice to become proficient. If you expect all of that info to stick the first time, try and recall how education works - repetition. His procedure is sound, so perhaps watch several times. Engine building could be similar to learning a foreign language, either requires practice.
👍
Might want to let the people who truly understand handle the technical stuff. But, for a do it yourself and stock replacement, provided you received the correct bumpstick to begin with, yes just line it up per manufacturer instructions. You be just fine.
Question when u install the degree wheel post lining up the cam and crank sprockets marks straight up, is the wheel not also positioned at TDC and the pointer installed and adjusted to also be at 0 TDC prior to obtaining or determining "true TDC"?
+Fernando Rosa Jr. The best time to reposition the degree wheel is after you have determined TDC with a piston stop.
WOW!!! this is SO confusing!!! Seems kind of pointless too...I mean it seems that degree(ing) a cam is just to see if the manufacture is lying about cam specs or if they're being honest.
***** it could be useful if you use a used cam or any other cam that you are unsure of the specs, but you're right
***** After spending $1300 in tools to check my engine specs. I have found the people that ground my camshaft were .001 out of spec, a cam bearing was .002 too tight which would have left me .000 oil clearance, and clevit bearings were .001 undersized when it stated on their site they were standard. Everybody always has time to fix mistakes, but not everybody takes the time to look for mistakes.
Exactly. waste of time
Kleo 84 exactly lol. I figure that out too.
What to do if the specs don't match up? Attach the camshaft sprocket at a different position on the camshaft? Is that even possible?
So did he change anything on his timing gear, or was the initial installation lining up the dots at TDC fine?
sorry to be off topic but does someone know of a trick to log back into an Instagram account??
I was stupid lost the login password. I would love any tips you can offer me
@Beckett Clyde instablaster :)
@Westley Philip Thanks so much for your reply. I got to the site through google and Im trying it out atm.
Looks like it's gonna take a while so I will reply here later with my results.
@Westley Philip It worked and I finally got access to my account again. I'm so happy!
Thanks so much you saved my ass!
@Beckett Clyde glad I could help :D
Is it common for the cam card to be wrong? It seems like the only purpose of this exercise is to double-check the manufacture's specs
+Sam O No, the cam card should always match up to what you ordered. In other words, it should match up to the cam specs in the catalog when you ordered your cam. Degreeing the cam really is to check and make sure the cam was ground properly. There are several steps and it can be confusing, but since the cam is so important to your engine's power and throttle response, it's generally worth the effort.
Is it really necessary to degree a cam or is it ok if #1 piston is up and crank tip is pointing face to cam tip?
So the 1st 2 wheel readings don't require a certain position of the wheel?
I've rebuilt a 5.3l l59 out of a 03 Yukon, going into a 69 camaro. The darn thing hasent really started yet. Did install a summit racing camshaft with new springs. After reviewing my video of the build I didn't degree the cam. Did reach TDC and lined up the dots . Every video I've seen on degree caming shows the cam spot on when you have TDC. Doesn't seem worth doing if you reached TDC.
I never Degree wheeled my 340 before I assembled it, do ya know if I can still degree wheel it even though the Intake Manifolds on ?
Yes
Yea,what he said,
It says right on the wheel. The exhaust valve is supposed to open at 90-100 degrees after tdc.
Nice job Ton of infro.
Thanks!
Just want to add my two cents in response to many of the comments below, for what it’s worth, which is likely less than $0.02…
Engine builders vary greatly in terms of talent and competence. Two builders assembling the same parts, on the same engine, may produce a final product whose power can vary by up to 20 hp more, or which may be more reliable over time. Steps like this are a critical part of the blueprinting process. If that level of meticulousness isn’t something you’re up for, do yourself a favor and find someone competent and reputable who is up for it. Otherwise, you’re rolling the dice on a very expensive piece of machinery. In short, take pride in what you’re doing, or don’t do it at all.
Installing a cam using the dot-dot method, as most manufacturers recommend, will get you close. However, because everything in an engine has manufacturing tolerances, you may find yourself in a situation in which those tolerances coincidentally line up against you. Moving your timing chain one tooth in either direction may change the timing by 6 degrees, so you will need an adjustable timing set if you’re really trying to do it right. They’re really not very expensive.
If your cam installation results in the timing being off by 2-3 degrees, that may not seem like much. But it will mean that your intake or exhaust valves may be slightly held open at a time when they should be closed, resulting in a slight loss of compression, as well as a loss of volumetric efficiency, power and fuel economy. Degreeing a cam is about verifying the numbers on the cam card, as well as ensuring that your timing is, in fact, set correctly. If you’re just replacing the cam and nothing else, this may seem like an unnecessary step. But if you are replacing a cam, lifters, pushrods, rockers, valves or any combination of those parts, it is cheap insurance.
This video, like many others, goes through the steps very quickly. Unless you’re standing in front of your engine, with the tools in hand for the job, it can be easy to be intimidated by the task. But if you take your time, it really is not much more difficult than understanding the concepts and doing basic math. It is not wizardry, gentlemen. This is exactly what is so great about TH-cam. So pause the video every 2-3 seconds if you have to, but give it a shot and show some damn perseverance. Or pay someone with more patience who had to do that when they first learned how to do this stuff.
Now please excuse me while I try to make sure that my engine build doesn’t grenade within 30 seconds of my first startup. Fingers crossed, like the rest of us band of misfits…
All great points. Thanks!
Thanks for your 2 cents worth. I really appreciated it. Good luck with.your.motor.
I'm going to assume that if it not in spec you change the push rod length ?
+Stephen Salamone If you are talking about getting the rocker arm tip centered over the top of the valve stem, yes, changing the pushrod length can help dial that in. Thanks
Thank You . So now I realize the it is a combination of rocker and push rod length to dial in the degrees angle . I was given a 302 ( 1985 mustang engine ) cam and roller rockers was told that it is 400 hp but when I took the pan off the rods did not look like they were balanced . I took my 1965 mustang pan off to fit the 1957 ford ranchero 1985 pan and oil pick up did not fit the cross member . engine full of carbon to big of jets ( 4180 double pumper Holley) not taken apart may be a blown power valve. I worked in a custom car shop for 17 Years . I have never indexed a engine, they were bought engines.
What if I'm rebuilding (rings and mains) a used engine that the cam looks fresh (looks like it had a recent rebuild at some point, previous owner didnt know history)? Can I still degree the cam without a cam card?
What do u start wheel at
shouldnt you use a solid lifter on a hyd cam set up to get it perfect,so the lifters dont give false readings,then put the normal lifters in.
fool proof?...... I guess I'm the fooliest fool ever
@thehorsepowermonster if you dont degree your cam and just set it at zero with the timing chain like it would be stock will it not want to stay at idle. i think im having this problem
@The Horsepower Monster
Unless there is a machining error or some other problem a cam installed straight up--or dot-to-dot on the timing chain--should be OK. If your engine doesn't want to idle my first thought would be the carburetor (adjust the idle screws) or timing (is it too advanced?). Have you checked those?
Huh... I thought this would be about how to tune in an adjustable timing kit... but it was just about verifying the cam manufacturer's specs.
Some are adjustable. Some even come with fine tune eccentrics.
Same here still haven't found good vid about advancing or retarding.
if you dont degree your cam and just set it at zero with the timing
chain like it would be stock will it not want to stay at idle. i think
im having this problem please message me or reply
I have yet to see a video where the results Don’t match the cam card or what to do if they don’t.
Those piston stops didnt work for my engine. I am running edelbrock heads and the angle of the spark plug hole makes it impossible for the piston and stop to meet.
It's pretty much double checking specs right?
Exactly.
not only is it complex and difficult, but it also require special tools that are expensive and hard to come by.
Never seen a cam that didn't degree exactly like the card said. Just something for engine builders to charge for
That all depends. If the cam is made in China, do not skip this step.
Who buys a cam made in China? LOL
Cana box - You'd be surprised how many businesses in the U.S. have their crap manufactured in China. Always ask if it's made in the U.S.
The advertised 1.52 rocker ratio is NOT an accurate number to use. The ratio changes during the rotational arc of the rocker arm. The advertised 1.52 ratio is only an average. Actual rocker arm ratio can be determined with a dial indicator. Push rod length also affects rocker arm ratio.
What happen when1 camshaft rolling follower come out
The lobe separation on the cam card is 108 and the intake center line is listed at 103. That means the cam was advanced 5 degree when it was made.
Forgot to check if the #1 cylinder is on the compression stroke...
So what's the point of all of it is it verification if the lobe opening and all that you know is this accurate I mean what's the what's all the points would I know I'm confused can someone explain to me and you have to readjust your time and after you do all that I'm lost their
The main point is to verify that the cam is opening and closing the valves at the appropriate time. If it isn't you can advance or retard the timing to correct it. Thanks for watching.
I've watched MANY videos on how to degree a cam, and NOT ONE of them shows what to do if the #'s are wrong. Point is, why would we, the engine builders that purchased a high-quality cam from a reputable manufacturer, have to double-check the accuracy of the cam manufacturer? Can't they be trusted?
i am so lost
it started off easy enough, but then, it's like... where are these numbers coming from? haha
glad i am not the only one
what is that valve spring tool? looks fuckin sweet
The valve spring compressor I use there is made by Moroso. I picked it up from my local speed shop, but you can probably get one--or one like it--from Summitracing.com or goodson.com
it all went over my head
x_x
I was expecting detailed explanation of the pros and cons of advancing or retarding the cam shaft for different drivability characteristics and performance. I was not expecting a video on how to tell if your cam really is what the manufacturer claims.
Didn't understand not one bit of what you said??????🤔🤔🤔
Better get some help then
After finding roller rockers sold as 1.5 ratio actually range from 1.4 to 1.6, this method of finding 0.050" is not good.
You should always go right to the lifter for finding the 0.050" lift.
He didn`t degree in a thing if he installed it with timing marks straight up , right ?
Correct.
I think I get it, 1 +1= .7643788457888 to the 5th power, OK so does that mean I have to buy a new part or just sell this pos
أقوي مكينه
wow! my mind blow up! lol
Huh? Just throw a cam in heads up and send it.
Kit makes it Real easy lol yeah right
I'm working on an engineering degree rn and most of that he said makes sense but I had to slow it way down and think lol. Seems pointless still
what?? I just wished they explain
Greetings friend, I'm from Venezuela, I would like your council to put the engine in time, getting the best that I can with what I have installed, I thank you for your help, a hug brother.
Engine ls2 6.0 camera l92 70cc
Here we use 95 octane gasoline
-Competencia Cams 13702-kit mm Series LS retro-fit Trunion Kit
-Computer Cams 7106 Adjustable Keyway Billet Timing Set for GM LS
-Brian Tooley Racing pr7400312 - 16 piece of Cromoly Pushrods 7,400 "Long 5 / diameter of 16" .080 "
-Chevy Gold Dual Valve Kit 660 Max Lift
- BTR LS1 / 2 STG IV Cam 235/242 .621 "/.592 111 + 3
Anyone else get that?
Omg -_- why don't I get this !!..
If you keep watching this enough you will understand more and more...
Because most people don't do this. Buy a quality camshaft and you won't need to do this.
He forgot the beer to
Can you make this any harder bro, you seem to really know what your doing, your just expaining way too fast
You can pause the video and rewind it...js...
I’m lost
that's all it dose is show you that you cam is made right or wrong
fuck i didn't understand at all
im working garage 3 years but I never understand that :)
Installing a cam is not this difficult Just go to vice grip garage channel
You are right. Installing a cam is pretty straightforward. This is about degreeing in your cam to ensure it is exactly where you want it.
@@TheHorsepowerMonster Vice grip garage is way more easy
If not.. So what..
The DOHC is much more easier and much more efficient.
Hope hes not getting paid flag time.
That wasn't complicated at all...... NOT.
You skipped about a dozen steps.