Renee Fleming over-embelishes / sings with full chest placement (2 octave drop) Imogene's Mad Scene
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ธ.ค. 2016
- Highlighted comments from the commenters below:
-From jmiller05:
The cavatina is sung like a dream. Ghostly, incredibly suspended with gorgeous dynamics and a fully supported middle that rivals Caballe in this vocal production.
The cabaletta and interpolations though don't sound like Bellini to me. The cadenza at the end of 'col sorriso' almost sounds like a french coloratura aria, very whimsical and unmusical to my ears. That said the chest tones in the cabaletta are the best after Callas and she sings with thrilling, if a tad unrefined intensity.
-From Lohengrin O: 2 octave drop in 7:50
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You know, I feel like this is why Renee has had the career she has. I turned off my critical opera and style brain and just listened and it was god damn exciting.
unbelievable Voice, range, support of vocal line... phenomenal all... but Bellini himself had said: Want to sing a cadenza? ask me to write one for you.. dont sing whatever... And Renee very often sang whatever and not as Musical her embellishments as they could have been.. I am her strongest Bel Canto supporter... I do love this
omg that Bellini quote is so hillarious! :D Can you refer me to a source where you have read it, please?
Ani Vardanyan
after all these years I do not remember where I have read all the things I have read.. and it was not Hilarious at all... cadenzas written by singers usually are so obvious as foreign bodies inside music not only because they completely lack musicianship but because they distort the musical meaning entirely.. on the other hand, cadenzas written by geniuses and composers for example the cadenzas Leonard Bernstein wrote for Callas' Sonnambula are fantastic and completely incorporated inside the body of the music as u cannot tell what belongs to whom...
ian1856
well yes but still, it can be translated into today into: Ask someone with real talent to write a cadenza for you... ask a Composer, someone who loves and understands Bel Canto and who also knows your voice so that the cadenza will fit...
Lohengrin O By saying "hillarious" I didn't mean anything bad, I think it was very witty and good-humoured of Bellini to phrase it that way (if he indeed did it), and it can apply to any area in life when things could have gone much better if left to pros. :D And I just wanted to share the thought with friends, that's why I wanted to have a source other than a YT comment.
Just wonderfully interesting and dynamic. Full throated and thrilling. Everyone would have been on the edge of their seats.
This is what opera is about.
She worked them vocal chords out. Ill say u can hear the actress in her voice. She runs through her voice with a lot of command. Everything not perfect but thats what makes it awesome. She gave the stage alot of vocal fire and security. I never felt she was gonna lose her way vocally. Very, very few sopranos could do this much opera drama vocally.
she has a Lyrical Assoluta instrument... phenomenal Voice and command
We are all so lucky to have Renée. She is one of the greatest singers of my lifetime.
the greatest along with Ewa Podles
And a lovely human being as well!
The unsuccessful are the first to criticize. Renee Fleming has done more to bring classical music and opera to the masses than anyone else hence her being the people’s diva. She’s my diva and she’s not ever not absolutely divine. She’s a beautiful woman too and that is what brings out the negative comments more than any technical issues. I am sure if she sounded the exact same but was 300 lbs and looked liked Almira Gulch these same “critics” would hail her as a genius.
She gives me goosebumps every single time and I just love her and I and so glad she’s America’s Soprano. She’s a gift to the world!
I have seen her live in Athens, during Morgen she brought tears to my eyes...
One of the greatest sopranos ever
I was there, and believe me it was STUNNING. It's so very easy to say that you prefer this or that singer but, 100 years from now i predict that opera lovers will be laughing their heads off at some of the critical comments below, as we all do now reading similarly negative comments about La Callas at the height of her career. This is also a LIVE recording with no chances of any retakes. BRAVISSIMA LA FLEMING
indeed I loved her Imogene immensely
AMEN!!!
Agree 100%!
Thanks for posting this !!
😎😎😎
OMG !... I was first raw just in front of Renée that night .... being back then is just ... it brings me tears ... thank you SO much for posting this Lohengrin O .... I was a great fan (and friend) of Renée then (I still love her ... and I remember how I was terrified for her before the concert ... my heart beating more than her's maybe ... I really thought it was a terrible challenge ... especially having in mind this horrible reaction of the public in La Scala when she sang Lucrezia a few years before ... and I fully remember how this stupendous rendition blowed my mind - and all the audience mind - away ... I can witness that the impact in the hall was ENORMOUS ... and the reaction of the audience (we can hear it) was like a burst of mixed awesome gratitude pleasure and love ... Yeap we know by heart the "lessons" of bel canto provided by the very knowledgeable Ayatolas pretending to hold the "truth" ... they "know" what Bellini wanted and liked or not ... they are SO cult and SO imbued with their so-called knowledge ... I have met these rigid temple guardians around the opera planet for decades ... each of them being convinced to possess THE truth ... it is just funny ... Believe me ... I heard so many opinions in the last 30 years about the "righteous" way of doing this or that ... (all of them divergent of course) that their self-conceit is now making me laughing ... YES one can like or dislike whatever singer singing voice style etc ... but PLEASE just see it as a pure and simple OPINION ... any opinion deserves respect (unless agressive and expressing offense scorn and disregard as the posting of "ian1856" ... ) .... Anyway ... Than you so much Lohengrin O ... :)
for me in this Pirata Fleming had proven to everybody that she is one of the greatest Voices to ever have walked on the planet Earth :D Immense vocal abilities
Thank you for sharing your raw emotions with us, and thank you for citing them as opinions, in a world where everyone is an opera critic! It would be enjoyable to have a few drinks with you, post-opera! In another lifetime, perhaps!
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Dominique-
Thank you for your AWESOME articulation of what I have felt for 30 years -- calling them "Ayatolas" is PERFECT
Thank you thank you thank you!!!
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🥰🥰🥰
My god, this woman is mad!! Brava!!!!!!
The real tragedy here is not the stylistically questionable ornamentation or articulation that Ms. Fleming employs, but rather the plethora of commenters who are too ignorant to realize that they reveal their own vanity, affectedness and lack of knowledge via their idiotic comments. This is GLORIOUS singing. Why can't it simply be appreciated? LISTEN TO THE REACTION OF THE AUDIENCE, FOLKS! This is an artist reaching the hearts of people, to be sure.
Sorry, but I hear poor singing without taste and style, singing with shabby effects witch the music doesn't need. Hear any interpretation of this scene by Maria Callas and you know what it means to make this music real and hit the sense of this music.
@@Michael231968 Dear Lord! Callas this, Callas that! Yes, she was divine. She is also dead. She also made her share of mistakes, some of them real humdingers!! Try listening to a few living singers! While you're at it, either learn how to spell, or to proofread! When you become perfect, you can be hyper-critical. Until then, don't waste your time searching for errors; listen to music! (I don't mean 12year old talent show contestants trying to sing opera!!!🤣)
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@@brookeggleston9314 AMEN!!!
@@janetflier6192 Thank you!!
Blessings . . .🌊✨👁️🌹👁️✨🐬
@@Michael231968 Please! Learn to spell before you comment!
Wow!!!This was crazy beautiful !!!
OMG! The pedantic, no-nothing snobs on here! Here we have one of the most soulful, in-control voices in the world and these stupid oafs can only stomp on her! That is sooo disgusting! I’ll match her musicianship against ANY of them! We musicians know who would prevail! Hail, Renee!
I love her Imogene... incredibly well sung
😂😂🤡
Amazing!! I love how she expressed her soul with her breath.
Listening to Renee sing is like rubbing your head against the smoothest silk.
She has the best legato of all time.
the support of Fleming's vocal line is a miracle on itself
Absofreakinglutely Amazing!!!!!!
Brava
I didnt know she could sing like this. This is wild and frenzy but fully in control belcanto singing. Glad she had this in her an wish she did more than her known delicate singing
she wasnt allowed to sing bel canto by the opera purists... she was always so heavily attacked when attempted bel canto roles that she went: oh give me a break... BB! when she said that she might sing Norma, the purists went NO NO NO NO this and that... Im so happy they have Angela Meade now to sing to them! :D
@@LohengrinO please explain, how are opera purist against bel canto? That's insane, bel canto is opera
against the way Renee was singing Bel canto, not against bel canto itself... Renee was a bit of a Scooper! (glider of notes instead of attacking them on center) and that is 1000% against Bel canto rules... so whenever she sang bel canto and especially in the years when she had SuperStar status the opera purists always screamed: scoop scoop scoop... and never really gave her credit for her bel canto singing... she was heavily Booed in La Scala as Lucrezia Borgia although she sang flawlessly that night (the recording exists)... the funny thing is that if on a scale from 1 to 10 Renee's scooping was like 6, Edita Gruberova who made her entire career on singing bel canto roles was always scooping like 20!! :D so it was quite unfair what they did to Renee... and it deprived us from hearing her Norma which would be a very Lyrical and Gorgeous Norma.... I am probably the ONLY person on the planet who loved her Bel canto operas and u can find them ALL in my channel (Lucrezia, Maria Padilla, Imogene, Rosmonda, Armida, Amina, Countess Folleville, Straniera, etc) If you want to see a document about Scooping: th-cam.com/video/u1asPsljTuU/w-d-xo.html
Époustouflant! Merci
Not really into opera, but this sounded incredible to me. It was passionate and amazingly delicate. Could listen to her, very easily.
She us just wonderful and appreciate her more and more as i explore her music
Una vera artista 💕
Miss Flemming, you took my breath away.
An artist has to make choices and they don't come easily. Follow all the rules or go rogue and make your mark. This comes with risk. Much like life .Fleming is an intelligent artist who decided to think outside the box.After all ,Imogene is mad at this point. Haters gonna hate. Joshua Smith said it best .Turn off your opera brain and enjoy an exciting bit of theater.
Very, very rarely do I listen to the cabaletta being sung without sounding like a screamed mess (and I mean, I have listened to it being sung by some pretty great singers). Fleming's singing in the cavatina is just divine, a most brilliant and touching beauty, and in her cabaletta there is some controversial choice in histrionic effects and ornamentation but the overall result is easy, vigorous, full-throttled and very dynamic singing, she really made it thrilling, not scary, and the very hard coloratura passages sounded properly dramatic and desperate, not ridiculously screamy. Amazing!
but not very belcantistic :p
She's beautiful. Artist and icon.
Well, shes amazing..🙂👏
The cavatina is sang like a dream. Ghostly, incredibly suspended with gorgeous dynamics and a fully supported middle that rivals Caballe in this vocal production.
The cabaletta and interpolations though don't sound like Bellini to me. The cadenza at the end of 'col sorriso' almost sounds like a french coloratura aria, very whimsical and unmusical to my ears. That said the chest tones in the cabaletta are the best after Callas and she sings with thrilling, if a tad unrefined intensity.
You are my reincarnation before I am actually dead... we have a 99,99% of agreement It is uncanny
Φωνή από βελούδο....υπέροχη! :)
Stunning singing to say the least - marvellous!
It could sound strange after 50 years of Callasish bel canto singing, but in the theater what exiting it was! Hearing so gifty singing was an unbelieving pleasure.
Voice, Voice, Voice!!! Opera is Voice!!! it is cruel!, it is racistic!! (by Nature) it is Absolute and it is Black and White.. either you have the Voice!!! or u dont! and if you have it, you dazzle the people no matter what
Il rincontro di Abigaille e Imogene...
I love her. She's wonderful.
La plus grande chanteuse des années 80; des souvenirs merveilleux a l opéra Paris; retrouvera t on ces voix grandiose un jour?
Non arriva mai improvvisata al confronto con le grandi del secolo scorso....e con il tempo aggiunge fascino sia al timbro sia alla dizione...sia alla ricerca di una sua strada anche nel discesce verso le cantine del suo timbro trovando un ottimo compromesso ..come faceva la Genger...mi ricorda la June Anderson....(insegnate agli americani ad applaudire).....che peccato non poterla applaudire dal vivo...ma beati chi può....stupefacente ...e indicativo come lo studio ...paghi sempre...ogni tanto è bello Ammirare queste Artiste...bisogna veramente essere talentuose per arrivare su questi nevai...e pare dove le altre Artiste le sfiorano le vette -----lei ...le sorvola....roba da morire di gioia....speriamo che Qualcuna impari....poichè la sua Parabola è esemplare....
Great! I am impressed. Ms. Fleming gives it her all. And that's quite a lot. Kudos!!!
:-)
exactly... she gives this piece everything she's got
Read some of the comments. Stopped. The over critical I is enjoying this nonstop!!!!
My goodness! This is living on the edge! Just I can understand how it sounds un Bellinian. But it is a mad scene... how could I have missed this.....
yep that was Renee's problem, in order to maintan the luxurious polished surface of her sound she couldnt be inside the Style especially in bel canto... nevertheless, miraculous voice
OMG, i love you Lohengrin O
Maestro Wenarto When is the wedding? 💙 Arnold Bourbon Amaral
I've read all the comments, every 1..I'll never figure out why any one criticizes, finds fault with 'talent'. Ms. Fleming has a God given ability. Why not just ENJOY the sound for the JOY of hearing it & APPRECIATE it? One may be better educated, a music critic, musician who 'knows' this is too slow, that 'should' be played/sung this or that way. SO WHAT!! She could sing the NYC phonebook & it would sound like Puccini
actually... it would sound heaven like but not like Puccini :D thats her problem :D
Yes, Renee, God himself sent you to us.
05:28..👏👏
What year is this recording ?
Renee's album is out soon, and it includes songs by... Bjork! m.klassikakzente.de/musik/alben/album/product:367863/distant-light
Bjork is indeed amazing... I recently heard her 17 sec long held belt in her song th-cam.com/video/tvoEZXop4zM/w-d-xo.html .. she deserves it
and omg!!!! Renee sings exactly this song... yeeeeee!!!!!
Lohengrin O thanks for the link. Can't wait. The Strand settings are beautiful too... We got them in London last year. I have the live broadcast. I know you're not keen on modern classical music.
celloguy
Listen to Bjork's 17 second long held belt... it is FANTASTIC...
Lohengrin O yes listened! Amazing!
Well, uh, she definitely sounds crazed and at her wits end. The aria has some beautiful moments and the legato is lovely. In opera, for the sake of verisimilitude, ugly sounds are appropriate, but - for me - she over employs those chest tones (for dramatic effect?) in the cabaletta to the detriment of the upper register.
I would not say it's not Bellini, coming from a jazz background, she's a little more free with her embellishments. In addition she's acting more with the voice than most singers who sing Bel Canto. I find it exciting and respect her for making that choice
After all these years I still cant hear the "jazz" in her singing.. I know the comment for years, my brain cannot see it...
I believe it's her approach to some of her ornaments. There's a little more freedom in the execution of them
@@gayoperadude63 There's a little more freedom in the execution of them 'than is expected or stylistically allowed.'
I wonder whether she employs any style adviser like Aspinall for Caballé, or Bonynge for Dame Joan.
She's not a dramatic soprano, but she did really good.. brava 👏🥲
One would not want a dramatic soprano (like Eva Marton or Gwyneth Jones) singing this music. One wants an expressive, intelligent soprano who can execute coloratura with ease and intensity. And this is what we have here. What an artist! ❤
Very exciting to listen to! Regardless of the historical accuracy. It just thrills me. Isn't opera about that? hahahah
Detecto una pizca de envidia en alguno de los comentarios y un sí es no es de pedanteria en otros ?
Renée Fleming, bravo..¡¡¡
One can accept Lucia as a fragil, delicate girl or as a heaver, more mature creature. I like the former as was with Pons, Peters and others. But I also like the Fleming version. As for embelishments, the Bel Canto period, both in vocal as well as instrumentall allowed for exagerations, and the public must have adored the brillance and glitter.
this is Imogene though.. Roberta Peters was not an opera singer, she was a Clown :D
Lohengrin O INDEED!!! Arnold Bourbon Amaral
Again, I much prefer the Paris performance, nowhere near as mannered, the voice much more focussed, the Cabaletta much more incisive. I need to start posting my own videos!
:D
Lohengrin O just to clarify for others - I was comparing to the Met performance of the following year (this is the Paris one). Those incredible shifts in vocal colour and register, unbelievably rich chest placement here, the two octave downward plunge, the accuracy of the coloratura. This is risky, risky singing, and she pulls it off incredibly. Remember this is a mad scene - the words are demented, and so is the singing! It works for me, because she is still in control despite singing on the very edge from start to finish. That that Col Sorriso and that cabaletta could come out of the same throat is a miracle.
Or put another way, if you want the perfect version you buy the studio recording, if you want knife edge risk taking go for live!
And oh god that support!
celloguy
:D I fully agree, still it sounds weird... as if Abigaile possessed her Imogene :D I cannot help but admire her Voice to Eternity
The timid applause after an extremely well sung cavatina is difficult to understand. She deserved an ovation IMO.
The cabaletta is a tour de force.
The performance I saw at the Met was considerably less exciting than this version.
I love Renee's voice but after all these years supporting her I kinda understand the people's objection to her Bel Canto... scooping has no place in Bel Canto cough-Edita-cough
I’m not a huge Renée fan.. but this is tremendous.
she had a Phenomenal instrument that she chose to tune it to the Soprano Lyric repertoire... unbelievably talented Voice
This is a revelation for me, there is this hurly-burly that feels Donizetti-like (and yes, actually Donizettie was Bellini-like) and I mean that in the best possible way. To use Verdi's well-known quote "Bellini is poor, it is true, in harmony and orchestration, but rich in feeling and in an individual melancholy that was all his own. Even in his less familiar operas, there are long, long, long melodies such as no one ever wrote before his day.”" And yet the richness is overflowingly sumptuously embellished by Dame Fleming. I CAN"T STAND IT!!! And yet I can't stay away. Thank you for a defining moment in my operatic pantheon.
she always sounded very strange in bel canto, as if her technique wasnt Sincere but gorgeous singing always
@@LohengrinO she has an it factor. I saw her in San Francisco Opera and she sounded so dramatically bigger snd different than others. I don’t love her London La Traviata but she spins a spell just the same.
From which opera is the cavatine?
Il pirata de Bellini
Very good question. Puccini or Mascagni perhaps, considering the verismo-like rendering. This is NOT Bellini at all.
@@luisdeorueta9748 It sounds so, but this is NOT Bellini.
@@mabuo16 Now that you point out the difference I see what you mean. You are right, but still...
Anyone trying to do something different after Callas will be criticized.
C6 down to C4
...not sure and too lazy to open my pitch programmes right now :p
@@LohengrinO have one on my phone but i was on the bus listening.
@@LohengrinO its a HUGE C6
Caballé stated that Il pirata was the most difficult opera she sang. This shows she was right. "Il consiglio condanna Gualtier!" Il consiglio si è dimenticato di condannare questa Imogene.
LA SCOOPOLA-... Made my milk curdle. Yogurt, anyone?
probably... but none has managed to sing with this vocal splendor the last 30 years ;) also liking Riciarelli and Gencer leaves you very small room to criticize just about.. EVERYBODY :D
You mean since 1987? I beg to differ
Oh lord 😳it's so slowed down it distorts the line and the words don't make any sense... Most of the signing I don't get what she is singing ( though I know every word) it's sooooo slowed down and so .. This isn't Bellini for sure, sorry to say...
Perhaps it isnt Bellini but not because it is slowed down... and Col sorisso is simply Divine
Hermosa voz, pero le falta la profundidad del papel, además de exagerar el alargue de algunas notas que le restan al drama. Sus graves son como entubados y suenan forzados y de paso la velocidad de la cavatina y la cabaletta es excesivamente lenta. Al final parecía una ópera verista y no bel canto. Aunado a que la coloratura no es clara sino forzadas. Sus agudos firmes. Pero en sentido general no me gustó. La Callas sigue siendo insuperable.
Parfaitement d'accord avec vous Nathanaël !
I think the word is "labored." Wonderful cabaletta, though.
I disagree... completely effortless is the word... she sings this as if it is a walk in the park
I was speaking about her phrasing and interpolations. I agree that it is all very effortless but still a bit overdone.
I agree it is overdone ye, the new word is accurate...
Larry Verdugo n
Not laboured but pedantic and too obvious.
At times she sacrifice the prurity of vocal line to her additions.
Amazing skills, very poor taste. Was she drunk that day?
exactly my thoughts with exception of Col sorisso... I mean, she sings the hell out of this but ...
Accurate sir ~ That is her problem of her whole career ~ I think she is quite delusional. She just think she can do what she can but can't. Very weak voice, skills are mediocre ~
@@morganchan2465 Her problem appears to be a tendency to make bad choices, mostly pertaining to style. Her voice is anything but weak, and her skills are immense. Let's hear your CD!?!?!
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It's a style of embellishment that predates Galli-Curci, Patti, and at one time was expected of every new singer interpreting the role.
Oui ,un grand potentiel vocal ,mais aucune élégance ,aucun goût ,aucune compréhension de ce qu'est le bel canto !
I still like Caballe rendition, Renee takes too many liberties with the Aria and Cavatina
Why at all does she have to shout FUNESTO. Oh, sorry she was shouting all the way through the entire aria. No thanks.
great singing but tasteless, as so often with this singer..
As Callas would have put it : 'What's this all about? ' as she has in her Julliard masterclass on the nonsense-crazy cadenza at Rosina's 'Une voce poco fa'.This is not Art ,it's just show off and poor taste.What a pity for Mrs.Fleming.
same comment could be applied to some of Sutherland's show offs and ALL of Sills' singing
You're absolutely right.Music, played well, does not need such shabby effects. Maria Callas in her performances hit the meaning of this music.
@@jimbuxton2187 Well said!!!
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It’s bel canto. It’s specifically written for the soprano to add embellishments to the aria.
Una vera artista 💕