As a fan of FromSoft games, it sucks to see so many assholes ruin the fun of these games for others. There’s so many ways to play them which is the ironic part.
Same. The fanbase is notorious for it. I think the Undertale fanbase is the only other one as notoriously garbage when it comes to streaming their game.
As per usual, Geegs is right. I actually got an insta reel where henya basically vaporized an enemy using magic and in the comments it was mostly people looking down on the fact that she was using magic like at all.
"Your build is better at beating bosses than mine, therefore it's worse" is the weirdest argument in soulslikes. Like sorry I'm not a masochist and I don't want to spend 10 hours trying to fight a boss at lvl1 with a dagger.
I've always disliked when people who are very familiar with a game act like everything they've learned should be common sense to new players. It's a problem overall in life, but gamers are detached enough from what they're doing that it happens more often from my experience.
What bothers me the most is when a new chatter will come in and see the streamer 50% through the game and still feel the need to tell them how to do something that they learned in the tutorial. "Strimmer, I know I just got here and I see you are fighting Morgott, but I really need to tell you that you can press A to jump."
I think it would be more effective if instead of a global ban, streamers could set up a "group" where they can see the notes and have auto timeouts across their extended community: Say you get banned in streamer A's chat, A is friends with streamer B and they've "grouped" and when you chat in B's chat, a flag pops up for mods that lets them pull up the mod logs for A's chat and they see why and how you were banned. It's basically what a lot of people do now by modding their friends who stream, but a bit more user friendly and readily accessible
If I recall correctly, on one of the many Twitch CEO interviews with streamers the dude did talk about something like Geega mentioned. Not automated like Geega said but instead the mods would be able to leave some sort of flag on the user and when they go fuck around on another chat, the mods of that other chat would be able to see it and act upon it if need be. Kind of like having a "Suspicious People" book in a security job but instead of mugshots you have sticky notes from your very long distance colleagues. Not sure if it was ever implemented as I have not touched the mod tools in a long time.
Think the funniest thing is people harping on magic builds because it’s mostly ranged based so you don’t have to rely as heavily on rolling, yet I see so many people in guides and shit using giant blades with special attacks that are ranged, and they mostly just spam those special attacks lol
I'll admit, I have a hard time watching souls games I have played, as I'm torn by between supporting the streamer and wanting to play myself. That said, challenge runs are another thing entirely, as I tend to learn a lot from others who already know the game in and out.
The anti-magic/summons players are the worst. Unless your are two-handing a colossal great sword or dual wielding Katanas, nothing will be good enough. When I see the streamer doing something I don't agree with, I just think, "Well, not going to do that in my game." But you know what's funny? The streamer's choice is usually the better one and I'll learn something new.
I think **nothing** will be good enough for those players/chatters haha. They gonna move the goalposts after they get what they want. They aren't to be catered to, ever.
I once had an interesting conversation with a vtuber about the giant dad build and whatever the equivalent of that may be in Elden Ring but I wasn’t trying to force her into a particular build. It was more about how many different ways there are to approach the obstacles that From Soft games present you with.
I love watching people play souls games for the first time, because its such a unique and exciting experience. However chatters constantly backseating and spoiling is so annoying. So much of the fun of those games is the feeling of discovery and figuring shit out for the first time, and that feeling gets eliminated when chat is yelling at them and telling them theyre doing everything wrong.
5 little stars made a mountain of difference for Uber and Lyft. I almost created a LFG site for WoW that would implement a similar system. The good eggs would get boosted to the top and the bad eggs would get pushed to the bottom if they continued to refuse to change. Gamers are easy to read, they want all the numbers to be higher. So if the only way to improve your Raid Score is to be nice, then that's what they'll do.
I know I have to almost physically force myself to not backseat when watching a Soulslike live when it's one I know very well. Like I wanna be helpful and alleviate frustration but I know people actually enjoy slamming their head against the wall in these games, it's why they're playing these games so I try to only pop in with a tidbit if they deliberately ask chat. This problem exists for me with other games too but there is just something about the genre that makes me want be a mother hen.
They're not "slamming their heads into the wall" without your guidance, they're playing and learning the game. Have some empathy, imagine you're playing new content and somebody sitting next to you is constantly telling you how you're doing it wrong and you should do it their way. You would be rightfully angry at them. You think you're being a "mother hen" when in actuality you're closer to a micro managing wannabe boss.
And now, a lot of those same gatekeepers are angy because "their way" doesn't work in the dlc, they actually might have to use the mechanics the devs put into the game (aka "cheating" according to them) and they can't deal because they've made being good at Dark Souls their whole personality
Hmm, I'm curious. For someone who hasn't really experienced any Souls games, what is the strategy thst no longer works? What are they being forced to do instead?
@@Bloodstar6078 There are some players who only use strength or dexterity weapons. To them, if you use any magic, spirit summons, and co-op help, you are cheating. The new DLC pretty much requires you to use Spirit Summons.
@@Lark88 That's ridiculous. I mean, I kind of understand why (the challenge), but it's a game. Play the way that's fun. And after seeing how cheap some of those bosses are I'd use whatever let's me win lol. Edit: and watching Michi sling spells while saying "fire ball!" every time was hilarious for some reason. 😂
And those who are whining about how the DLC is so hard. It's Elder Ring. What did they expect?! The means to overcome the obstacles it imposes are all right there!
Can't tell if I am one? When I see someone play NieR:Automata, I encourage them to test out weapon combinations and engage with non-story related stuff like fishing. Some people hate fishing in games, IDK why. Some people never use any other weapon combo than (Primary) Sword and (Secondary) Heavy Sword that the game gave them at the start of the game. And some never touch the chip system, avoiding it like it's the fishing mechanic. Some also just don't know the controls, I ask them first if they follow a challenge of sorts before telling them what the buttons do that they avoid pressing. (like lock-on, can't lock-onto-nothing if nothing is nearby, so testing it out in safe zones make it seem like a useless button) So in my opinion, I improve player experience, and that reflects in the streamer's response.
If they respond positively, I guess there is no problem. Oftentimes though they might say in the beginning whether they want advice or not. For example some will say no backseating unless they ask for help from chat. I've even seen Korone (hololive) use an traffic signal for backseating. At least I think that's what it was for. It was a while ago. It also helps to just figure out what you want as a viewer. Are you looking for reactions or content? Or are you looking for expert gameplay? Sometimes watching bad gameplay deives me crazy. Sometimes I'm okay with it if a streamer I like is experiencing a game I really enjoy. Consider what you want, but also what the streamer is going for. If it doesn't line up, watch something else.
@@Bloodstar6078 Well of course can I restrict myself to only when the streamer asks for it, but that would require them to put a note somewhere, so that everyone who participates in the chat know the rules. No one watches the start of a stream, especially as a VoD, if they weren't there from the start. (especially corporal vtubers remove the ability to go back in the timeline) The content I want to watch, when someone plays NieR:Automata, is their reaction to everything. (maybe also their current thoughts and theories of the game)
@@KittenKatjaGet a feel for the room before saying anything. If you see other chatters giving advice and the streamer responds positively go right ahead, but usually if they want no back seating it will say so in the stream title or pinned comment.
Fromsoft are easily the worst fanbase in gaming. I don't know what it is about soulslikes but they attract the worst kinds of human beings. The games themselves are boring as hell anyway.
I've only backseated once with her and that was with Doom Eternal. She was desperately trying to kill pinkies with her blood punch charged and I said "it's so satisfying how blood punch one-shots pinkies."
I've done things like that too in the past, but then I realize that if I tell the streamer a hint (that they didn't ask for), I'm depriving the streamer of the joy from that moment of revelation when they finally figure it out or I will deprive chat of the comedic content of trying to play the game the hard way.
Yeah, this sounds way too liable to be abused, especially given the ideological bias of twitch itself having some bleed over effect on the channels. Very easy to get penalized for some other channel's moderation being toxic.
@@nevisysbryd7450 That's why she suggested that you would have to be flagged in multiple different channels before you start being penalized. But yeah, every system, especially online, has potential for abuse.
@@kurtwinchell Multiple channels as a requirement does not really work here, though, because as Twitch itself has a pervasive set of biases, a lot of channels are inevitably going to fall into that. While any system can be exploited, the design can make that easier and more appealing to exploit and abuse and this proposition is extremely prone to both. It is a terrible idea.
@@nevisysbryd7450 Yeah, I don't actually think it would be a good system to implement in reality. When you bring politics along for the ride, every platform and every user becomes biased, by definition.
@@kurtwinchell Sure, although it is far broader than politics. This could easily be weaponized against v-tubers in favor of the women with nominally not-adult content, as we have seen plenty of times before on the platform. While this idea might could work if the type and style of content on the platform was more homogeneous, it is too diverse for that sort of homogenizing cross-channel moderation to be anything other than exploited for one subsection to dominate the others.
Michi has the opposite problem, if she asks for help we actively refuse beyond trolling. But seriously, I don't really understand why backseating is an issue? It's not like streamers have to do what chat says or even read chat at all. Then again I don't really see the appeal of having a live chat from the streamers' end in general.
Imagine you're playing a game you've never played before in a room full of friends and one person will not stop telling you how to play, and that you're doing it wrong if you don't do it their way. Chat is integral to the streaming experience for both viewers and the streamer, without it you might as well post a TH-cam video. Streamers talk to chat because they like the interaction, it's not that hard to figure out.
@@Toastybees See that's where I don't get it. I can understand enjoying the interaction but at the same time, the interaction is going to be backseating to some degree. There's really nothing else to say in that context as far as I can see.
@@azamonra "to some degree" is kind of the important part. When you just a small number of backseaters, you tell them to stop and if they don't you can timeout / ban them. Problem solved. Soulslike fans are a different breed. Any soulslike stream is full of people trying to tell the streamer what to do. They don't even usually try to disguise it as "helpful advice" or anything, they are barking orders. All of them. Frequently conflicting orders. What are you gonna do, ban everyone in chat? It's an unsolvable problem because souls players have no respect. The vocal ones on twitch anyway, I shouldn't try to push that on every souls player ever. Anyway, the only "solution" is to avoid the situation by just not streaming the game. Factorio fans can be almost as bad. Usually not as toxic, but still full of know-it-alls just trying to help. You do of course also get the "my way or the highway" types. Sometimes you can even get them to behave and only give hints when asked, but that's not consistent.
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Fromsoft/Soulslike chatters are the worst kinds of tourists.
As a fan of FromSoft games, it sucks to see so many assholes ruin the fun of these games for others. There’s so many ways to play them which is the ironic part.
Yea, fromsoft brain rot is pretty strong, especially in Elden Ring. Theirs literally a war between the PVP and PVE sides of the game.
It's like trying to watch a movie with someone who has already seen it and they keep interrupting to explain things; ruins the whole experience.
I knew it was going to be about Souls by the thumbnail lol
Same. The fanbase is notorious for it. I think the Undertale fanbase is the only other one as notoriously garbage when it comes to streaming their game.
As per usual, Geegs is right. I actually got an insta reel where henya basically vaporized an enemy using magic and in the comments it was mostly people looking down on the fact that she was using magic like at all.
"Your build is better at beating bosses than mine, therefore it's worse" is the weirdest argument in soulslikes. Like sorry I'm not a masochist and I don't want to spend 10 hours trying to fight a boss at lvl1 with a dagger.
I've always disliked when people who are very familiar with a game act like everything they've learned should be common sense to new players. It's a problem overall in life, but gamers are detached enough from what they're doing that it happens more often from my experience.
What bothers me the most is when a new chatter will come in and see the streamer 50% through the game and still feel the need to tell them how to do something that they learned in the tutorial.
"Strimmer, I know I just got here and I see you are fighting Morgott, but I really need to tell you that you can press A to jump."
I think it would be more effective if instead of a global ban, streamers could set up a "group" where they can see the notes and have auto timeouts across their extended community: Say you get banned in streamer A's chat, A is friends with streamer B and they've "grouped" and when you chat in B's chat, a flag pops up for mods that lets them pull up the mod logs for A's chat and they see why and how you were banned.
It's basically what a lot of people do now by modding their friends who stream, but a bit more user friendly and readily accessible
Oh man, a global twitch chat demerit system sounds so good if tuned right.
Problem is there is absolutely no way twitch would get it right in a way that wouldn't be abused as well
If I recall correctly, on one of the many Twitch CEO interviews with streamers the dude did talk about something like Geega mentioned. Not automated like Geega said but instead the mods would be able to leave some sort of flag on the user and when they go fuck around on another chat, the mods of that other chat would be able to see it and act upon it if need be.
Kind of like having a "Suspicious People" book in a security job but instead of mugshots you have sticky notes from your very long distance colleagues.
Not sure if it was ever implemented as I have not touched the mod tools in a long time.
from my brief experience modding for a friend, no it's not. At least not for non-partnered streamers
Think the funniest thing is people harping on magic builds because it’s mostly ranged based so you don’t have to rely as heavily on rolling, yet I see so many people in guides and shit using giant blades with special attacks that are ranged, and they mostly just spam those special attacks lol
I'll admit, I have a hard time watching souls games I have played, as I'm torn by between supporting the streamer and wanting to play myself. That said, challenge runs are another thing entirely, as I tend to learn a lot from others who already know the game in and out.
It'd have to be tested so you could ban Bao and not screw her over
Luckily with almost everyone playing Elden Rimg atm, the tourists have to pick and choose
The anti-magic/summons players are the worst. Unless your are two-handing a colossal great sword or dual wielding Katanas, nothing will be good enough. When I see the streamer doing something I don't agree with, I just think, "Well, not going to do that in my game." But you know what's funny? The streamer's choice is usually the better one and I'll learn something new.
I think **nothing** will be good enough for those players/chatters haha. They gonna move the goalposts after they get what they want. They aren't to be catered to, ever.
That's why I don't watch the streams because I'd get so mad at chatters I'll spazz out lol
you can just hide the chat
@@themeatpopsiclefeels a little strange to be watching the stream live at that point. May as well just watch the vod lol.
@@Arareemote I think they are refering that the streamer can hide the chat?
@@icarue993Huh? but the OP was talking about watching streams
@@Arareemote Yeah that's true you can hide the live chat for yourself. But if the chat is embedded like on this clip... you just can't win ;)
I once had an interesting conversation with a vtuber about the giant dad build and whatever the equivalent of that may be in Elden Ring but I wasn’t trying to force her into a particular build. It was more about how many different ways there are to approach the obstacles that From Soft games present you with.
I love watching people play souls games for the first time, because its such a unique and exciting experience. However chatters constantly backseating and spoiling is so annoying. So much of the fun of those games is the feeling of discovery and figuring shit out for the first time, and that feeling gets eliminated when chat is yelling at them and telling them theyre doing everything wrong.
5 little stars made a mountain of difference for Uber and Lyft. I almost created a LFG site for WoW that would implement a similar system. The good eggs would get boosted to the top and the bad eggs would get pushed to the bottom if they continued to refuse to change. Gamers are easy to read, they want all the numbers to be higher. So if the only way to improve your Raid Score is to be nice, then that's what they'll do.
I know I have to almost physically force myself to not backseat when watching a Soulslike live when it's one I know very well. Like I wanna be helpful and alleviate frustration but I know people actually enjoy slamming their head against the wall in these games, it's why they're playing these games so I try to only pop in with a tidbit if they deliberately ask chat.
This problem exists for me with other games too but there is just something about the genre that makes me want be a mother hen.
They're not "slamming their heads into the wall" without your guidance, they're playing and learning the game. Have some empathy, imagine you're playing new content and somebody sitting next to you is constantly telling you how you're doing it wrong and you should do it their way. You would be rightfully angry at them.
You think you're being a "mother hen" when in actuality you're closer to a micro managing wannabe boss.
Geega, as always, speaks the truth
"The FromSoft chatters are so cancer." So even worse than toxic?
And now, a lot of those same gatekeepers are angy because "their way" doesn't work in the dlc, they actually might have to use the mechanics the devs put into the game (aka "cheating" according to them) and they can't deal because they've made being good at Dark Souls their whole personality
Hmm, I'm curious. For someone who hasn't really experienced any Souls games, what is the strategy thst no longer works? What are they being forced to do instead?
@@Bloodstar6078 There are some players who only use strength or dexterity weapons. To them, if you use any magic, spirit summons, and co-op help, you are cheating. The new DLC pretty much requires you to use Spirit Summons.
@@Lark88 That's ridiculous. I mean, I kind of understand why (the challenge), but it's a game. Play the way that's fun.
And after seeing how cheap some of those bosses are I'd use whatever let's me win lol.
Edit: and watching Michi sling spells while saying "fire ball!" every time was hilarious for some reason. 😂
And those who are whining about how the DLC is so hard.
It's Elder Ring. What did they expect?! The means to overcome the obstacles it imposes are all right there!
Fromsoft fans being toxic manbabies? Who would have seen that coming
Can't tell if I am one?
When I see someone play NieR:Automata, I encourage them to test out weapon combinations and engage with non-story related stuff like fishing.
Some people hate fishing in games, IDK why. Some people never use any other weapon combo than (Primary) Sword and (Secondary) Heavy Sword that the game gave them at the start of the game. And some never touch the chip system, avoiding it like it's the fishing mechanic. Some also just don't know the controls, I ask them first if they follow a challenge of sorts before telling them what the buttons do that they avoid pressing. (like lock-on, can't lock-onto-nothing if nothing is nearby, so testing it out in safe zones make it seem like a useless button)
So in my opinion, I improve player experience, and that reflects in the streamer's response.
If they respond positively, I guess there is no problem.
Oftentimes though they might say in the beginning whether they want advice or not. For example some will say no backseating unless they ask for help from chat.
I've even seen Korone (hololive) use an traffic signal for backseating. At least I think that's what it was for. It was a while ago.
It also helps to just figure out what you want as a viewer. Are you looking for reactions or content? Or are you looking for expert gameplay? Sometimes watching bad gameplay deives me crazy. Sometimes I'm okay with it if a streamer I like is experiencing a game I really enjoy. Consider what you want, but also what the streamer is going for. If it doesn't line up, watch something else.
@@Bloodstar6078 Well of course can I restrict myself to only when the streamer asks for it, but that would require them to put a note somewhere, so that everyone who participates in the chat know the rules.
No one watches the start of a stream, especially as a VoD, if they weren't there from the start. (especially corporal vtubers remove the ability to go back in the timeline)
The content I want to watch, when someone plays NieR:Automata, is their reaction to everything. (maybe also their current thoughts and theories of the game)
@@KittenKatjaGet a feel for the room before saying anything. If you see other chatters giving advice and the streamer responds positively go right ahead, but usually if they want no back seating it will say so in the stream title or pinned comment.
@@Toastybees That's a huge problem, since most people I have watched have like 1 to 5 active viewers; their chat was mostly dead.
Fromsoft are easily the worst fanbase in gaming. I don't know what it is about soulslikes but they attract the worst kinds of human beings. The games themselves are boring as hell anyway.
I've only backseated once with her and that was with Doom Eternal. She was desperately trying to kill pinkies with her blood punch charged and I said "it's so satisfying how blood punch one-shots pinkies."
I've done things like that too in the past, but then I realize that if I tell the streamer a hint (that they didn't ask for), I'm depriving the streamer of the joy from that moment of revelation when they finally figure it out or I will deprive chat of the comedic content of trying to play the game the hard way.
Social credit?
Yeah, this sounds way too liable to be abused, especially given the ideological bias of twitch itself having some bleed over effect on the channels. Very easy to get penalized for some other channel's moderation being toxic.
@@nevisysbryd7450 That's why she suggested that you would have to be flagged in multiple different channels before you start being penalized. But yeah, every system, especially online, has potential for abuse.
@@kurtwinchell Multiple channels as a requirement does not really work here, though, because as Twitch itself has a pervasive set of biases, a lot of channels are inevitably going to fall into that. While any system can be exploited, the design can make that easier and more appealing to exploit and abuse and this proposition is extremely prone to both. It is a terrible idea.
@@nevisysbryd7450 Yeah, I don't actually think it would be a good system to implement in reality. When you bring politics along for the ride, every platform and every user becomes biased, by definition.
@@kurtwinchell Sure, although it is far broader than politics. This could easily be weaponized against v-tubers in favor of the women with nominally not-adult content, as we have seen plenty of times before on the platform. While this idea might could work if the type and style of content on the platform was more homogeneous, it is too diverse for that sort of homogenizing cross-channel moderation to be anything other than exploited for one subsection to dominate the others.
I refuse to believe GTA chatters are any better than Fromsoft chatters. My brief foray into GTA Online was filled with trolls and griefers.
Michi has the opposite problem, if she asks for help we actively refuse beyond trolling. But seriously, I don't really understand why backseating is an issue? It's not like streamers have to do what chat says or even read chat at all. Then again I don't really see the appeal of having a live chat from the streamers' end in general.
Imagine you're playing a game you've never played before in a room full of friends and one person will not stop telling you how to play, and that you're doing it wrong if you don't do it their way.
Chat is integral to the streaming experience for both viewers and the streamer, without it you might as well post a TH-cam video. Streamers talk to chat because they like the interaction, it's not that hard to figure out.
@@Toastybees See that's where I don't get it. I can understand enjoying the interaction but at the same time, the interaction is going to be backseating to some degree. There's really nothing else to say in that context as far as I can see.
@@azamonra "to some degree" is kind of the important part. When you just a small number of backseaters, you tell them to stop and if they don't you can timeout / ban them. Problem solved.
Soulslike fans are a different breed. Any soulslike stream is full of people trying to tell the streamer what to do. They don't even usually try to disguise it as "helpful advice" or anything, they are barking orders. All of them. Frequently conflicting orders. What are you gonna do, ban everyone in chat? It's an unsolvable problem because souls players have no respect. The vocal ones on twitch anyway, I shouldn't try to push that on every souls player ever. Anyway, the only "solution" is to avoid the situation by just not streaming the game.
Factorio fans can be almost as bad. Usually not as toxic, but still full of know-it-alls just trying to help. You do of course also get the "my way or the highway" types. Sometimes you can even get them to behave and only give hints when asked, but that's not consistent.