@@war4peace1979these are brushless fans with control boards. The control board is clever enough to know that. Even my cheapo Amazon random fan does. The problem is, it will reset and retry every a few seconds. So every time it tries to start, it's gonna send a spike to PSU. When CPU and GPU are on full power, this extra load could easily overload the PSU.
Jay, as someone who just did their first water cooled build and ran into countless issues, im very thankful that you not only show all your successes, but also all the speed bumps you encounter along the line. Thank you for not only the knowledge, but the example of the patience it takes to get these systems working when doing it yourself.
Genuinely. If it weren't for Jay and his willingness to show his successes as well as his failures I'd have ripped most of my hair out with my pc issues.
Yeah, I had stopped doing water cooling back in the early '00s because of all the issues that would crop up. I'm now getting back into it because of modular PSUs, high quality crossflow rads, mobo-integrated flow and temp sensor inputs, availability of monoblocks meaning I don't need a separate cooler for VRMs, and Uni Fans and other direct-attach daisy-chain fans reducing the clutter. It's just taking me a while to get all the parts since the QD's I want are always out of stock. I can get one every few months at best, and I need at least 4.
@@mariomunoz525 easily the best advice that Jay has given, at least for me, is "Take a deep breath, there's no need to panic. Panic doesn't help you think." The best advice. Because if something is already broke, freaking out isn't going to fix it.
that shit cracked me up!!! i swear i cant get enough of their video's and then when they add little stuff like this it just makes the video even better!
Some mobo's have a setting that if the CPU fan header reports no RPM, the system will shutdown. There is also the chance that a stuck fan draws multiple times more power. This is why if you stop a fan with your hand then let go, it takes it a second to kick back on. I imagine there are a certain number of times it tries to start the fan before it shuts down the system.
Yea usually the bios throws a fan error code in those situations. But once you're past windows boot screen it'll ignore the issue until overheat or whatever kicks in from lack of airflow. However this situation was different because the fan header was getting a signal due to daisy chaining, but as you suggested, the fan that wasn't spinning was drawing more current instead, probably hit more than 4x the normal current draw when Phil set it to 100%.
The first fan in the daisy chain sends the rpm signal back to mb header. That fan not spinning could have been tripping the mb's CPU fan fail protection. Also PWM means Pulse Width Modulation which is the method that the mb uses to control the speed of the fans and is not related to the the rpm signal being sent from the fan back to the mb.
Beat me to it, I said the same thing. I support these automated Smart Markets that use PWM for their LED Light Panels and you can see the flicker of the panels cycling on/off if you turn the PWM down enough. People always complain about it. "Yeah, that's normal."
@keithvsmith if your using pwm to control your led panels you should probably use the correct power connector... some led panels come with what looks like a pwm header but all led panels are controlled with either 5v or 12v, they are not actually controlled by a pwm style header... if you are using the pwm on your motherboard to power your leds you might want to find some sort of adapter for your pwm style header so you can connect to the proper 5v or 12v header!!! On another note like he said in the original post, pwm means pulse width modulation... a led or light emitting diode is not powered by a pulse and has no width to modulate... they are powered with direct current and any flashing is done with a computer controlled chip that actually fluctuates direct current to the diodes.... now it is possible to power them via pwm module but I don't advise it... use the proper rgb header or power header from your psu to power your led control panels please... that message looked like some sort of Troll...I hope this helps you tbh...
@@rkaidag74 Might want to reread what I typed, this wasn't for a Computer... It was about going off how PWM or Pulse Width Modulation works. It's an On/Off duty cycle, so if you set it to 80, it's on 80% of the time and off 20% instead of being voltage controlled.
@keithvsmith I think you might be confused... the percentage is a total... the actual pulse modulation is to control the magnetism of the fan so it doesn't have so much perpetual motion the motor cannot keep up... the percentage your seeing is total power output bud... it doesn't actually effect the pulse modulation, that happens automatically it only increases or decreases the total percentage of what's being modulated.... like an engine on a boat going downstream vs upstream....!!!
A first for me as well. I'm messing around with PCs for 25 years now and I've seen a lot fans acting up and dying before but never saw them triggering OCP if they are not allowed to rotate. If it was the motherboard that didn't recognize the fan spinning it would've either not booted at all or shut down immedately. So I think that fan or the two together altered the PWM signal in such a way that the signal line back to the board basically shorted. I guess if you think you've seen it all you probably don't.
Sweet, nice work. Yes, it's electrical, the mechanical hindrance will ask the system to push it more (current) til something break or some protection kicking in. Great channel btw
So crazy that that's what the problem was. With all the high-tech stuff that we deal with in computers... I guess Phil's a lot happier now! And for Techtober you got TWO videos out of it!
Thanks for sharing the fix. It would be interesting to do an A/B power draw comparison between a freely spinning fan and one that you hold fixed. Pretty sure a stuck fan pulls more power and the motor itself can over heat.
Having the fan physically blocked made the PWM send it full power to try and get it going. I think in that situation the amount of current draw can be considerably higher than even at 100% fan speed. I've been building PCs for about as long as Jay, and I've seen some really weird issues. It's frustrating, but also a good feeling when you figure it out.
@@donaldslayerYeah. I'm not a complete expert on computers, but I am an industrial electrician. Locking the fan rotor could maybe cause many times the normal running current. Easy way to burn out motor if it doesn't have the correct overload protection
It’s an attribute of electric motors that the current increases when the mechanical load on the motor increases. A broad number of applications (like 3.5 inch disc drives or instrument clusters) actually use this effect to e.g. detect the dead stops. (turn the motor until current rises above a threshold) A blocked motor draws three times or more current than if it’s not blocked
lol good point. Its these old boys who clearly had a copy of x copy professional on there Amigas yer want to watch. Experience is experience said some movie i cant remember. This guy is legit.
You really miss things like load'"*.*",8,1 or perforating a little square out of a 5.25" floppy to be able to use both sides ? But then again it was the C=64 back in 82 that started this journey of learning curves to be taken throughout the decades, but having those foundations as a base knowledge, THAT is hard to explain to following generations, who learned it all from a windows like type of user interface, we had DOS, not an occasional command prompt etc etc... Amazing that the 64K was enough mem for playing most of the arcade games at home back then...@@joelchojnacki .... and oh that day we discovered copyIIpc xD
I love these videos. A lot of the time you watch a video on how to build a PC and end up sitting there saying ... "yeah but it is not doing that, what do I do now?". These types of videos help figure out problems which aren't obvious. Thanks Jay for being awesome!
Wild I actually did have an idea what was going on, only because I've encountered a very similar issue. Mine was caused by a GPU fan though, where the middle fan out of the 3 wasn't spinning and causing OCP shutdowns. That sure was a fun one to figure out because the temps were fine, and presisted after swapping out the power supply. Fans can be hard to diagnose, especially in my case where I couldnt see if they were all moving or not.
I've been struggling with this issue in my Corsair One i145 for months and I thought I was losing my mind. Corsair, GeekSquad, friends in IT-no one could figure it out.
Sounds very similar to airplane recirc and or equipment cooling fans, when bearings go out or having excess current draw from gunk build up, etc to reach that operating speed. Always pops that breaker. Kinda cool info that it relates to computers in some sort of fashion as well lol. Thanks for the uploads Jay!
I love Jays videos and the patience he has to troubleshoot and not figuring something out teaches you something new and to change your moethod in building a water cooling system for super small cases. The part that made me laugh the most and it made my night honestly, When the music started and he's pulling the film off the glass and the glass flew off 😂😂😂 I was in tears. Thank you Jay for being the only youtuber that is not afraid to show that something didn't work out and didn't take out of the montage, That gives people confidence to keep trying to learn how to figure things out. In all honesty I only enjoy and love Jays videos as number one source for me, Gamers Nexus was my first then he started making long ass boring videos with all due respect and i love his work, But too long is boring and not good for content cause people don't have the patience nor the time to watch 40 to 60 minutes of talk and no action. Great having you my main source Jay, And that will be it. Jay then Gamers nexus then last MKBHD sor electronics and especially for Smartphones.
Unscrewing and screwing the case a hundred times during this video alone! Building and fixing PCs is more a therapy to himself than maintenance for the PC :-). I love it when you love, what your doing, man!
That sometimes happens with me too. When i clean up my PC and re assemble it back it just doesn't want to turn on. Because all the USB slots are occupied are connected. So that's a really good video jay. Power can sometimes be complicated. And in my case it's the USB connected to my printers. And my PC sees it's pulling unusual power from usb and it shuts down. For me it's just to remove every USB connection except keyboard + mouse + monitor (my monitor also have a USB hub connected so remove it too). Then it's all fine. Let the PC run for a time then connect each USB one at a time and good to go.
24hrs turn around is really good.. usually its like a week cause you found more issues when building and more parts/fittings/brackets get ordered.. and finally you have to actually dremel part of the case to fit a bracket.. ah, the process.
I just wanted to say that the system looks great after the upgrades! I use that same color blue on my system except it is a slow breathing mode instead of static. Great job on getting it working and letting us know what happened!
All right Jay. It has been many many months since you promised us an update and or a video about you working with Northbridge fix and we have heard nothing from you. It is time for you to keep your promise. Do it!
@JayzTwoCents : a PWM connector has 4 pins : (1) Ground, (2) +12V, (3) Signal (=fan RPM) and (4) PWM, so the actual PWM signal and the RPM are sent on separate wires. So either the fan controller only sees the RPM signal of the 1st connected fan, or maybe the Lian-Li UNI fans don't pass the RPM signal through to daisy-chained fans down the chain, maybe that RPM signal line simply isn't connected from the UNI fan's input connector to the output connector ? Since that 1st fan in the chain was being obstructed by the fan grill and couldn't turn this fan correctly reported 0 RPM back to the CPU fan header. Your motherboard BIOS then interpreted this 0 RPM fan signal as a critical malfunction (cooling was compromised) and tripped the PSU breaker to protect the system from frying itself and causing possible damage.
Exactly this. Too many comments here talking about over current, but stalled brushless fans only pulse briefly every 2 or 3 seconds from zero current up to about half an amp to one amp to kick start the fan, and that's nothing for the 12V rail compared to everything else. But the lack of RPM detected would readily prompt a shutdown since it can be a critical failure.
37 years ago was 1986, the year I got my Timex Sinclair w/ cassette tape storage. Next was the Commodore64, Zenith desktop, followed by Amiga then build my own since. Psygnosis flight sims and Papyrus NASCAR MMO thru dialup, had to build my own wheel and pedals. So yes, it has been an exhausting journey to the conflicts of today, which are much less but on an exceedingly complex level. IRQ conflicts were the good ole days, and learning why Celerons were cheap. Hope my present system holds because I have had enough, 12600k w/ EVGA 1070TI AIO, great temps. Salute to you Jay for sticking with it, and thank you for inviting us along.
Just built 3 new PCs. One of them was having terrible stuttering and trouble posting. After replacing everything, draining my bank account and tearing my hair out in the process; it turns out it was a faulty pcie riser cable from cooler master. Same one I used in one of the other builds. So frustrating, yet so simple.
Thank you for not giving up and figuring it out. I'm a motorcycle technician and I see it every day. People get stuck and give up. I have to explain to them that I learned more from not giving up than I ever did in a classroom.
I walked at a friend's garage a few summers ago, and realized just how much is understanding basic concepts, and using those to figure out what the problem is.
I finished my nr200p hard line build just before you guys did. I had so much fun but it was also a bunch of hard work but Allina all super happy. Used the the new ique link fans. Thank you for all the great help over the years with all my watercooled builds!!!
Well with PWM on the MB would see a fan not spinning and send more voltage and with it not being able to turn would cause a fault for sure. It's great to see safeguards actually working as intended. Back in the day you would generally smoke your board and or PSU.
That's not how that works. The voltage is constant 12V through the 12V supply line. The PWN signal is switching the fan on and off constantly according to it's setting in order to control the speed.
@@SirLugash Oh I thought when a electric motor is unable to spin that the subsequent power feedback would pop a breaker like on every electric motor that has one built in. As these fans do not it would trigger the MB or PS which would be the the next layer of protection. I know that they run on 12v but the PWM regulates that voltage to slow or speed up the fan to control the temp is that not how that works? I do understand Fan curve but I wasnt sure that is what Jay said I thought they set them to 100% and that energy has to go somewhere. not an expert on it just seemed logical .
@@SirLugash When a motor is stuck, it can cause a spike in current. This can melt a wire, or blow a fuse. But why? What exactly is happening here? Which values are going up, and which are going down? Volts = Amps * Resistance Watts = Amps * Volts
@@steveseybolt Considering the low amount of power those fans are designed for, they would probably catch fire before being able to overload a supper supply. The PWM signal technically causes voltage regulation inside the fan by turning it on and off for relative intervals which averages out for the requested speed. However it will not cause the PSU or Motherboard to "send more voltage" as the 12V line is constant.
I really gotta admit. The editing of your videos, cutting at the right times, sound effects, jokes, music is on another level compared to most tech channels. Really good job to Phil or whoever else is included. PROPS !
Good catch! I had a similar issue with an old turbine fan from Cooler Master in the early 00s. For some reason the motherboard couldn't see the CPU fan even when it was spinning and would shut down. Took a while to figure it out.
Hey Jay, maybe you could 3d print some spoilers for the thin fans underneath (same thickness as the case feet extenders) to hide the fans and their wires. Very nice build!
Got a little hvac experience, first thing I always do is check correct fan spinning etc. But I was just duped by xmp crashing my mw2 for a few days lol PCs are cool.
He even has to drop spending $55 for a fkn cable for his EDITOR'S PC.... Acting like he hasn't been sent tens of thousands of dollars in electronics that have never been used 😂😂😂😂😂
Usually not a problem anymore even on ITX boards as the VRMs used are way overkill for the cpu's even for an 13900k. + on most higher end boards the 90amp power stages are used which are not only overkill but have their peak efficiency at around 70-80c!
12:48 Noob guess - since it's a daisy chained PWM - it got some sort of PID error since PMW is technically a PID controller of sorts depending on how it's programmed? I think?
Glad I didn't have to wait too long to find out the RCA. Edit: The PWM can probably only handle a certain amount of amperage. When that fan was trying to turn but couldn't I imagine the amperage shot through the roof and overloaded the circuit.
The PWM line isn't carrying the current that is driving the fan. That goes through the 12V and GND wires. The PWN line is a digital signal to controll the relative on/off times of the fan to reach the desired speed.
Great that you could figure this one out. Had a similar issue once with a Fractal AIO where one of the three fans on the radiator stopped turning (bad bearing?) unless you provided it with >85% of it's rated speed which in turn caused pretty bad cooling performance. At that point it would start turning, but at a much slower speed than the other fans. Took me a few days to figure that out. Phils finished build montage videos are best in class as usual, looks awesome. Kudos to you sir.
Very good catch Jay, I would've bet it was the cut riser but the fans triggering a ocp makes sense now that fans are daisy chained and possibly caused too much resistance for the header to be safe so it triggered a protection. Also Cutting a pcb is usually never a good idea so keep the new one on hand just incase lol. Keep up the good work!
Kind of, but common misconception about electricity. Having higher resistance is actually easier on the circuit and power source, because that electricity is only going to flow as quickly (amperage) as the circuit will allow, which is why a direct short that offers almost no resistance is a very bad thing, but having bulbs, appliances, and other electronics is safe, because it slows the rate of electricity.
Great job Jay (and friends)! I have been restricting my home builds to big high quality cases ( like the Lian li O11 evo xl) for years because I hated working in cramped conditions ever since the time of the cheap beige 'cut-any-finger-you-dare-in' generic brand cases. I can see now how that helps dodge the weirdest pitfalls.
Have been watching back some of the older JayzTwoCents videos and this truck to me. I remember one time when I re-organized my room and disconnected my PC whilst doing it. Once everything was plugged back in, PC didn't start. Nothing worked. What in the end caused it was a specific USB device in either one of TWO specific USB ports that just caused the PC not to power on at all. No Bios screen, no nothing. Moved the USB device to a USB extension card and another USB device from the extension card to the MB USB port. This was some 15-20 years back or something
I had the same problem with my nr200p build with the fan. My cpu power cable was pushed up against the fan grill because I ran it up over my air cooler. The insane thing was it only happened sometimes at certain temperatures due to thermal expansion.
This is maybe the best video this year, not only in your channel, but all `pc building` channels. Not only the reason, the way you delivered the problem, investigation and solution. Humble and effective, congratulations bro!
That's great that Phil's PC is finally working and we see thermal improvement and they don't seem small at all. I would love to have a video on setting up the intel extreme software in the BIOS, I have not been able to get it working for my new i9 12900KS. I'm missing something in the BIOS and would love to have you do a full rundown on it!
2:40 well when i shut off my PC that click is also a relais that shuts off the main 12V power in the PSU. Some TVs also do that when powering down. When I unplug my PC, I turn it on while unplugged to discharge any residual power. Usually the relais clicks twice, one for powering on and immediately again for turning off. FYI: A relais is a magnetic switch, when current goes through the magnet it pulls on a contact and closes a circuit. That is what is clicking. When you turn the PC off, the magnet looses its magnetic charge and lets go of the contact, opening the circuit and stopping the flow of electricity.
Those maxs are a tight squeeze for sure, I had trouble with the ps that came with mine but it ended up correcting itself after a couple tear downs.. just a strange occurrence 🤷🏻♂️
I also have come across the fan problem before where temps are unusually warm. It made noise too. I add custom cardboard cut out washer for the grill and it solve the temp issues
I used to have random shutdowns where the culprit was a Corsair commander pro with a faulty fan header. The funky thing is the faulty fan header wasn't even in use... I only found out when I needed the faulty header and RMA'd it... After it was changed no more random shutdowns.
I use low profile 140mm fans under my O11 Air Mini. Works great and allows me to mod the vertical bracket to put it closer to the bottom so it doesn't cut off the CPU cooler when looking at it..
I have had systems crash from the fans getting stopped by a wire or me bumping them in the past. It might cause an overload because the motherboard is trying to dump more amps to get the fan to spin IDK.
As soon as you said that the one fan was plugged into the cpu fan header, I KNEW that it had to be a problem with a fan not spinning. A buddy of mine was having issues with his PC a while back (it was jank and super budget should be explanation enough i hope) and he was having problems with his PC constantly shutting off and crashing after his cpu fan quit working. He had taken the side panel off and pointed a box fan into it as an alternative to cooling his cpu instead of buying (at the time) a $30 cpu fan for his specific fin stack. He was so confused as to how he was having problems weith better thermals than before, but would crash every time he launched ANY game. It wasn't until he plugged in a new CPU fan to his cooler and never had a problem again. Its probably some protocol with the instruction set of the CPU itself (or motherboard) that if the thing that is supposed to cool the cpu isnt doing the thing its supposed to do, to shut down to prevent thermals geting out of hand and damaging the chip
I might be wrong especially for modern mainboards, but old ones had CPU fans with notably higher power draw, if you used a old CPU fan with bad bearing (higher resistance) as chassis fan it could easily fry your motherboard. If you think that one was hard to diagnose: I once had a power LED fail in a way where it was still working but drew too much power and shut down the PC (oc protection?). I tought I was going crazy because everything worked outside the case (where I didn't have the power LED connected) and the last thing you'd suspect is a working LED.
I love my NR200, it's awesome to be able to take apart an ITX system and work on it without having to rip everything apart. Happy flying Phil, keep the blue side up!
Most unexpected problem we ever had on a completely new build was a bad IDE cable. Yes, it was a while ago, but, a bad new cable is very rare. It would boot fine, somewhere during installing Windows it would conk out. You start checking other things first, HD, Mobo, PSU, even memory, CPU, the chances of it being a brand new bad cable is just astronomically low in comparison because it's such a simple part.
Jay, there's a few things going on here. The PWM signal is just that, low voltage a control signal, telling the fans how quickly they should spin. Even with the one stuck fan, the signal will pass through correctly allowing the second fan to spin as requested. This tells me that no weirdness was going on with the control PWM signal at all. The power required to spin the fans is coming from 12v, and the stuck fan, trying to spin at the requested speeds, would have used a ton of current trying to start spinning, this is what tripped the OCP for the 12v rail. I don't know how those fans handle reporting their own rpm when they're daisy chained, but normally it's just from the first fan in the chain and subsequent fans are just assumed to be doing the same, or almost the same, as the first. Ideally it should read as zero rpm as the fan wasn't spinning, but it's likely that the motor, pulsing current with every attempt at starting, flooded the tachometer signal with garbage that the motherboard couldn't decipher.
primo tech tip learned from this Jay! It is amazing, even with me, that sometimes the littlest thing causes the biggest of issues! Thanks for sharing brother!! PS: That build is SICK!!
Anywhere that space is a premium, especially something like an efficiency apartment or tiny house, for example. Some people also just hate the idea of an appliance sized computer to look at, and are willing to spend the money and/or effort of SFF builds.
It’s not because of the PWM, it’s because the rotor is locked which causes the motor to overheat and trip the OCP. Great job in finding that one, don’t have a lot of space to work with in that case!
I had a similar problem with one of my servers once. I had a wire that snagged a fan when I would screw the system back together.... Pull the lid off the rack and it would run fine... huh?? put the lid on and it would randomly shut off. whaaa?? I eventually figured out was happening and just rotated the fan 90 degrees so the wire wasn't stupid and its been fine for 2 years, in the rack running Proxmox.
Wouldn't it be possible to use smaller diameter tubing to help with the clearances? Or would that require significantly higher PSI to cool the same volume of liquid?
If those are the size of tubes I think they are (Outer diameter 13mm and inner diameter 10mm) you cannot go smaller without an extremely tiny amount of options for fittings/plugs unless you're willing to mill your own. I only ever seen one build with tubes smaller than that. It was in a Velka 5. And the person had to make their own fittings, their own cpu and gpu blocks, and had to replace an exterior panel with a de-shrouded radiator to get it to work. That level of modding I think would take several weeks of work. Many months if you have to go to an external source for the parts milling.
My big question is why are systems so small so popular? I prefer a nice, big tower. I've got a Corsair 7000X main system, and my two self training lab machines are in Thermaltake Core V71 cases. I really don't like those tiny cases. It makes putting the machine together so much more difficult.
I think part of it is form factor, some people prefer their PC as small as possible. I think the other part of it is, is because it is hard to do, in terms of getting really powerful systems into really small spots, I think that's why people do it too. Me. I'm on your side. Side give me a full tower case, I would rather have enough room inside my case to put the Atlantic Ocean then there if I needed to, lol. Each to their own, as long as people are enjoying what they build and are using it, I'm happy for them.
As for me personally ( i do own ITX pc) It makes a lot cleaner setup and saves space on desk/looks great (smaller than Xbox X) ive got Motif Monument Stand/case so i have no problems with airflow and temps since i do like cooler temps in my room anyway imho its boils down to preferences i could build "normal" "big" pc for lot less but it would automatically landed under the desk :D
A smaller case is easier to move around for upgrades/dusting and takes up less desk space. My first real build was in an NZXT Khaos and moving that thing always sucked. Now that I'm using NR200 I can't see myself ever going back I think , with SATA being basically completely optional in modern builds, we're at a point where the trade offs are minimal for a typical mid-range build and we're one major innovation away in PSU cabling or GPU efficiency (one that makes 3 fan cards pointless) from NR200 size cases from becoming the default.
Ah, the bizarre joys of building and testing computers, you run into so many weird situations. Had one a couple months ago when I built a computer for someone. Significant RAM corruption, thought it was bad components. It was a singular strand of hair I'm assuming making contact with the pins. Removed it, problem fixed.
As others have stated, a forcibly stopped fan will use way more current than a properly running one but also, fans that are daisy chained only have the first fan report RPM sense. PWM (or pulse width modulation) only tells the fans how fast to spin, RPM sense tells the motherboard “I’m spinning this fast.” The combination of high amperage and low rpms was possibly tripping some internal cutoff to prevent damage.
When I saw this vid labeled "I fixed Phil's PC... You'll NEVER guess what the problem was!" My guess was "Jay overlooked something" on a small formfactor build.
This little beast turned out so sick! Congrats Phil! I just wish that Jay had flipped the bottom rad over so that the Corsair logo would be right-side-up like it is on everything else. Unless the Corsair rads only have ports on one side of the end tanks, which I wouldn't think they would do. Lol.
Welp, I can't even remotely begin to argue that this title is clickbait. I would NEVER in a million years guess that it was a fan. That is a really nice looking build. I LOL'd way too hard when the glass launched itself to the ground during the peel!
It's relieving to see that stupid things can happen to ANYONE of us. I can't remember how many times my head wanted to hit the desk in my 25 years of building my own systems.
Lock rotor current for the fan could be what was causing the ocp. Current for stuck electric motors can be 6-8x higher than normal
yep this
Came here to say the same.
Yup, it's a fan thing. Some fans do have a locked rotor sensor, not sure about Lian Li fans, though.
@@war4peace1979these are brushless fans with control boards. The control board is clever enough to know that. Even my cheapo Amazon random fan does.
The problem is, it will reset and retry every a few seconds. So every time it tries to start, it's gonna send a spike to PSU.
When CPU and GPU are on full power, this extra load could easily overload the PSU.
Yup thought the same. Actually I was thinking about that poor fan header, thing coulda melted with that much juice
Jay, as someone who just did their first water cooled build and ran into countless issues, im very thankful that you not only show all your successes, but also all the speed bumps you encounter along the line. Thank you for not only the knowledge, but the example of the patience it takes to get these systems working when doing it yourself.
Genuinely. If it weren't for Jay and his willingness to show his successes as well as his failures I'd have ripped most of my hair out with my pc issues.
@@IamKingSleezy broo ive literally just sat back took a breath and asked myself What Would Jay Do??
Yeah, I had stopped doing water cooling back in the early '00s because of all the issues that would crop up. I'm now getting back into it because of modular PSUs, high quality crossflow rads, mobo-integrated flow and temp sensor inputs, availability of monoblocks meaning I don't need a separate cooler for VRMs, and Uni Fans and other direct-attach daisy-chain fans reducing the clutter. It's just taking me a while to get all the parts since the QD's I want are always out of stock. I can get one every few months at best, and I need at least 4.
@@mariomunoz525 easily the best advice that Jay has given, at least for me, is "Take a deep breath, there's no need to panic. Panic doesn't help you think."
The best advice. Because if something is already broke, freaking out isn't going to fix it.
This is actually why i watch Jay2Cents. Videos like this is why Jay is one of the best. Thanks for showing us all of these!
Tell Phil that using the "peel fail" audio as part of the music drop was GENIUS
Phil's music is sooo good!
a literal drop
that shit cracked me up!!! i swear i cant get enough of their video's and then when they add little stuff like this it just makes the video even better!
I laughed my ass off it was perfect
Some mobo's have a setting that if the CPU fan header reports no RPM, the system will shutdown. There is also the chance that a stuck fan draws multiple times more power. This is why if you stop a fan with your hand then let go, it takes it a second to kick back on. I imagine there are a certain number of times it tries to start the fan before it shuts down the system.
Yea usually the bios throws a fan error code in those situations. But once you're past windows boot screen it'll ignore the issue until overheat or whatever kicks in from lack of airflow. However this situation was different because the fan header was getting a signal due to daisy chaining, but as you suggested, the fan that wasn't spinning was drawing more current instead, probably hit more than 4x the normal current draw when Phil set it to 100%.
The first fan in the daisy chain sends the rpm signal back to mb header. That fan not spinning could have been tripping the mb's CPU fan fail protection. Also PWM means Pulse Width Modulation which is the method that the mb uses to control the speed of the fans and is not related to the the rpm signal being sent from the fan back to the mb.
Ah hue are correct my good sir...
Beat me to it, I said the same thing. I support these automated Smart Markets that use PWM for their LED Light Panels and you can see the flicker of the panels cycling on/off if you turn the PWM down enough. People always complain about it. "Yeah, that's normal."
@keithvsmith if your using pwm to control your led panels you should probably use the correct power connector... some led panels come with what looks like a pwm header but all led panels are controlled with either 5v or 12v, they are not actually controlled by a pwm style header... if you are using the pwm on your motherboard to power your leds you might want to find some sort of adapter for your pwm style header so you can connect to the proper 5v or 12v header!!! On another note like he said in the original post, pwm means pulse width modulation... a led or light emitting diode is not powered by a pulse and has no width to modulate... they are powered with direct current and any flashing is done with a computer controlled chip that actually fluctuates direct current to the diodes.... now it is possible to power them via pwm module but I don't advise it... use the proper rgb header or power header from your psu to power your led control panels please... that message looked like some sort of Troll...I hope this helps you tbh...
@@rkaidag74 Might want to reread what I typed, this wasn't for a Computer... It was about going off how PWM or Pulse Width Modulation works. It's an On/Off duty cycle, so if you set it to 80, it's on 80% of the time and off 20% instead of being voltage controlled.
@keithvsmith I think you might be confused... the percentage is a total... the actual pulse modulation is to control the magnetism of the fan so it doesn't have so much perpetual motion the motor cannot keep up... the percentage your seeing is total power output bud... it doesn't actually effect the pulse modulation, that happens automatically it only increases or decreases the total percentage of what's being modulated.... like an engine on a boat going downstream vs upstream....!!!
Its always the smallest thing causes the biggest issue! Great content Jay, and enjoy the build Phil!
That PC looks as amazing as I imagined.
Sfx/mini-itx PCs are my favorite, and I really appreciate when people try a custom water loop in them.
awesome catch. this is the beauty of troubleshooting... look for clues and then use your experience and logic to figure it out. nice one
The most bizarre problem I've seen for a long time (building computers for about 20 years). Well done, Jay, good fix.
A first for me as well. I'm messing around with PCs for 25 years now and I've seen a lot fans acting up and dying before but never saw them triggering OCP if they are not allowed to rotate. If it was the motherboard that didn't recognize the fan spinning it would've either not booted at all or shut down immedately. So I think that fan or the two together altered the PWM signal in such a way that the signal line back to the board basically shorted.
I guess if you think you've seen it all you probably don't.
Same here, dealing with computers for over 85 years i have never seen this before.
Sweet, nice work. Yes, it's electrical, the mechanical hindrance will ask the system to push it more (current) til something break or some protection kicking in. Great channel btw
So crazy that that's what the problem was. With all the high-tech stuff that we deal with in computers... I guess Phil's a lot happier now! And for Techtober you got TWO videos out of it!
Thanks for sharing the fix. It would be interesting to do an A/B power draw comparison between a freely spinning fan and one that you hold fixed. Pretty sure a stuck fan pulls more power and the motor itself can over heat.
It can be 5-10 times more, depending on the motor and the voltage, if I recall correctly
Having the fan physically blocked made the PWM send it full power to try and get it going. I think in that situation the amount of current draw can be considerably higher than even at 100% fan speed.
I've been building PCs for about as long as Jay, and I've seen some really weird issues. It's frustrating, but also a good feeling when you figure it out.
Motors draw massively over their rated current when starting. Even a few seconds of that is bad news
@@donaldslayerYeah. I'm not a complete expert on computers, but I am an industrial electrician. Locking the fan rotor could maybe cause many times the normal running current. Easy way to burn out motor if it doesn't have the correct overload protection
@@donaldslayerbrushless PC fan motors don't actually behave like that since their drive electronics is current feedback.
It’s an attribute of electric motors that the current increases when the mechanical load on the motor increases. A broad number of applications (like 3.5 inch disc drives or instrument clusters) actually use this effect to e.g. detect the dead stops. (turn the motor until current rises above a threshold)
A blocked motor draws three times or more current than if it’s not blocked
Youve been building computers for as long as Ive been alive, that puts things into perspective quickly lol
lol good point.
Its these old boys who clearly had a copy of x copy professional on there Amigas yer want to watch.
Experience is experience said some movie i cant remember.
This guy is legit.
@@krowbar2009 Some of us were working/using computers from before Amigas were a thing. 286, 386, even ZX 81s and Spectrums.
@@krowbar2009 Ah, I miss my C64 & Amiga 500.
You really miss things like load'"*.*",8,1 or perforating a little square out of a 5.25" floppy to be able to use both sides ? But then again it was the C=64 back in 82 that started this journey of learning curves to be taken throughout the decades, but having those foundations as a base knowledge, THAT is hard to explain to following generations, who learned it all from a windows like type of user interface, we had DOS, not an occasional command prompt etc etc... Amazing that the 64K was enough mem for playing most of the arcade games at home back then...@@joelchojnacki .... and oh that day we discovered copyIIpc xD
I love these videos. A lot of the time you watch a video on how to build a PC and end up sitting there saying ... "yeah but it is not doing that, what do I do now?". These types of videos help figure out problems which aren't obvious. Thanks Jay for being awesome!
Wild I actually did have an idea what was going on, only because I've encountered a very similar issue. Mine was caused by a GPU fan though, where the middle fan out of the 3 wasn't spinning and causing OCP shutdowns. That sure was a fun one to figure out because the temps were fine, and presisted after swapping out the power supply. Fans can be hard to diagnose, especially in my case where I couldnt see if they were all moving or not.
I've been struggling with this issue in my Corsair One i145 for months and I thought I was losing my mind. Corsair, GeekSquad, friends in IT-no one could figure it out.
Sounds very similar to airplane recirc and or equipment cooling fans, when bearings go out or having excess current draw from gunk build up, etc to reach that operating speed. Always pops that breaker. Kinda cool info that it relates to computers in some sort of fashion as well lol. Thanks for the uploads Jay!
I love Jays videos and the patience he has to troubleshoot and not figuring something out teaches you something new and to change your moethod in building a water cooling system for super small cases. The part that made me laugh the most and it made my night honestly, When the music started and he's pulling the film off the glass and the glass flew off 😂😂😂 I was in tears.
Thank you Jay for being the only youtuber that is not afraid to show that something didn't work out and didn't take out of the montage, That gives people confidence to keep trying to learn how to figure things out.
In all honesty I only enjoy and love Jays videos as number one source for me, Gamers Nexus was my first then he started making long ass boring videos with all due respect and i love his work, But too long is boring and not good for content cause people don't have the patience nor the time to watch 40 to 60 minutes of talk and no action.
Great having you my main source Jay, And that will be it. Jay then Gamers nexus then last MKBHD sor electronics and especially for Smartphones.
Unscrewing and screwing the case a hundred times during this video alone! Building and fixing PCs is more a therapy to himself than maintenance for the PC :-). I love it when you love, what your doing, man!
could also be a unconscious advertisement for the Linus Screwdriver.
That sometimes happens with me too. When i clean up my PC and re assemble it back it just doesn't want to turn on. Because all the USB slots are occupied are connected. So that's a really good video jay. Power can sometimes be complicated. And in my case it's the USB connected to my printers. And my PC sees it's pulling unusual power from usb and it shuts down. For me it's just to remove every USB connection except keyboard + mouse + monitor (my monitor also have a USB hub connected so remove it too). Then it's all fine. Let the PC run for a time then connect each USB one at a time and good to go.
I suspect a jammed fan may draw more current which may have been too much for cpu fan header.
24hrs turn around is really good.. usually its like a week cause you found more issues when building and more parts/fittings/brackets get ordered.. and finally you have to actually dremel part of the case to fit a bracket.. ah, the process.
Looking good ... and great thermals on that powerful lil monster ... and the computer too Phil 🙂 Nice work Jay
Wow! Glad you’re good at troubleshooting. Loved seeing you explain your thoughts, cause, and solution
I just wanted to say that the system looks great after the upgrades! I use that same color blue on my system except it is a slow breathing mode instead of static. Great job on getting it working and letting us know what happened!
All right Jay. It has been many many months since you promised us an update and or a video about you working with Northbridge fix and we have heard nothing from you. It is time for you to keep your promise.
Do it!
Every build I've ever done I always make sure every fan in the system is turning. Never take it for granted.
@JayzTwoCents : a PWM connector has 4 pins : (1) Ground, (2) +12V, (3) Signal (=fan RPM) and (4) PWM, so the actual PWM signal and the RPM are sent on separate wires.
So either the fan controller only sees the RPM signal of the 1st connected fan, or maybe the Lian-Li UNI fans don't pass the RPM signal through to daisy-chained fans down the chain, maybe that RPM signal line simply isn't connected from the UNI fan's input connector to the output connector ?
Since that 1st fan in the chain was being obstructed by the fan grill and couldn't turn this fan correctly reported 0 RPM back to the CPU fan header. Your motherboard BIOS then interpreted this 0 RPM fan signal as a critical malfunction (cooling was compromised) and tripped the PSU breaker to protect the system from frying itself and causing possible damage.
Exactly this. Too many comments here talking about over current, but stalled brushless fans only pulse briefly every 2 or 3 seconds from zero current up to about half an amp to one amp to kick start the fan, and that's nothing for the 12V rail compared to everything else. But the lack of RPM detected would readily prompt a shutdown since it can be a critical failure.
Great troubleshooting! To test your theory, did you try manually stopping the fan to see if you achieved the same fault? Just curious.
37 years ago was 1986, the year I got my Timex Sinclair w/ cassette tape storage. Next was the Commodore64, Zenith desktop, followed by Amiga then build my own since. Psygnosis flight sims and Papyrus NASCAR MMO thru dialup, had to build my own wheel and pedals. So yes, it has been an exhausting journey to the conflicts of today, which are much less but on an exceedingly complex level. IRQ conflicts were the good ole days, and learning why Celerons were cheap. Hope my present system holds because I have had enough, 12600k w/ EVGA 1070TI AIO, great temps. Salute to you Jay for sticking with it, and thank you for inviting us along.
I'm guessing the first fan is the only fan it's reading acting as a "master". Similarly, fan hubs have one header that acts as the fan rpm reader.
Just built 3 new PCs. One of them was having terrible stuttering and trouble posting. After replacing everything, draining my bank account and tearing my hair out in the process; it turns out it was a faulty pcie riser cable from cooler master. Same one I used in one of the other builds. So frustrating, yet so simple.
Thank you for not giving up and figuring it out. I'm a motorcycle technician and I see it every day. People get stuck and give up. I have to explain to them that I learned more from not giving up than I ever did in a classroom.
Lmfao
I walked at a friend's garage a few summers ago, and realized just how much is understanding basic concepts, and using those to figure out what the problem is.
I finished my nr200p hard line build just before you guys did. I had so much fun but it was also a bunch of hard work but Allina all super happy. Used the the new ique link fans. Thank you for all the great help over the years with all my watercooled builds!!!
Well with PWM on the MB would see a fan not spinning and send more voltage and with it not being able to turn would cause a fault for sure. It's great to see safeguards actually working as intended. Back in the day you would generally smoke your board and or PSU.
That's not how that works. The voltage is constant 12V through the 12V supply line. The PWN signal is switching the fan on and off constantly according to it's setting in order to control the speed.
@@SirLugash Oh I thought when a electric motor is unable to spin that the subsequent power feedback would pop a breaker like on every electric motor that has one built in. As these fans do not it would trigger the MB or PS which would be the the next layer of protection. I know that they run on 12v but the PWM regulates that voltage to slow or speed up the fan to control the temp is that not how that works? I do understand Fan curve but I wasnt sure that is what Jay said I thought they set them to 100% and that energy has to go somewhere. not an expert on it just seemed logical .
@@SirLugash When a motor is stuck, it can cause a spike in current.
This can melt a wire, or blow a fuse.
But why? What exactly is happening here?
Which values are going up, and which are going down?
Volts = Amps * Resistance
Watts = Amps * Volts
@@steveseybolt Considering the low amount of power those fans are designed for, they would probably catch fire before being able to overload a supper supply. The PWM signal technically causes voltage regulation inside the fan by turning it on and off for relative intervals which averages out for the requested speed. However it will not cause the PSU or Motherboard to "send more voltage" as the 12V line is constant.
That makes sense so PWM saved the fan I like it ! @@SirLugash
The montage went hard af dude. I recently upgraded to a 4K monitor and watching that in 4K with a good headset for that bass was dope af.
I really gotta admit. The editing of your videos, cutting at the right times, sound effects, jokes, music is on another level compared to most tech channels. Really good job to Phil or whoever else is included. PROPS !
Good catch! I had a similar issue with an old turbine fan from Cooler Master in the early 00s. For some reason the motherboard couldn't see the CPU fan even when it was spinning and would shut down. Took a while to figure it out.
Hey Jay, maybe you could 3d print some spoilers for the thin fans underneath (same thickness as the case feet extenders) to hide the fans and their wires. Very nice build!
Got a little hvac experience, first thing I always do is check correct fan spinning etc.
But I was just duped by xmp crashing my mw2 for a few days lol
PCs are cool.
He even has to drop spending $55 for a fkn cable for his EDITOR'S PC.... Acting like he hasn't been sent tens of thousands of dollars in electronics that have never been used 😂😂😂😂😂
Says it's not clickbait, continue with a vague intro to the video to lure you even further! Clever moves Jayz :P
Something inside the system was triggering a sort of "no CPU fan signal".
Love this videos showing all the thought process, not right away the solution
Really enjoying this Series again this Year Jay, Thank you.
Satisfying conclusion to this build. NICE find/fix. Also satisfying b-roll/ montage. :D
I wonder if due to lack of air cooling won't the VRMs and chipset on the MB get too hot?
Usually not a problem anymore even on ITX boards as the VRMs used are way overkill for the cpu's even for an 13900k.
+ on most higher end boards the 90amp power stages are used which are not only overkill but have their peak efficiency at around 70-80c!
Well done jay and Phil is lucky to have such a good boss I hope he appreciates his situation.
Not a big fan of itx but this little unit looks great.
Good job on that diagnosis.
ITX doesn't really do big fans, so it's probably for the best.
(I'll see myself out)
12:48 Noob guess - since it's a daisy chained PWM - it got some sort of PID error since PMW is technically a PID controller of sorts depending on how it's programmed? I think?
Glad I didn't have to wait too long to find out the RCA.
Edit: The PWM can probably only handle a certain amount of amperage. When that fan was trying to turn but couldn't I imagine the amperage shot through the roof and overloaded the circuit.
The PWM line isn't carrying the current that is driving the fan. That goes through the 12V and GND wires. The PWN line is a digital signal to controll the relative on/off times of the fan to reach the desired speed.
Great that you could figure this one out. Had a similar issue once with a Fractal AIO where one of the three fans on the radiator stopped turning (bad bearing?) unless you provided it with >85% of it's rated speed which in turn caused pretty bad cooling performance. At that point it would start turning, but at a much slower speed than the other fans. Took me a few days to figure that out.
Phils finished build montage videos are best in class as usual, looks awesome. Kudos to you sir.
Very good catch Jay, I would've bet it was the cut riser but the fans triggering a ocp makes sense now that fans are daisy chained and possibly caused too much resistance for the header to be safe so it triggered a protection. Also Cutting a pcb is usually never a good idea so keep the new one on hand just incase lol. Keep up the good work!
Kind of, but common misconception about electricity.
Having higher resistance is actually easier on the circuit and power source, because that electricity is only going to flow as quickly (amperage) as the circuit will allow, which is why a direct short that offers almost no resistance is a very bad thing, but having bulbs, appliances, and other electronics is safe, because it slows the rate of electricity.
Phil that was AMZING. I absolutely love his edits and that beat. Keep it up!
Hey Jay I appreciate all the videos you post man, keep up the great work💪
It's always the darndest things. Glad you were able to figure it out and get it fixed!
Moral of the story; get a bigger case! 👀
that's amazing. Excellent job in figuring that out
You have great patience! I would have tossed it out of a window by now!!
*THANKS FOR THE VIDEO!!!*
Great job Jay (and friends)!
I have been restricting my home builds to big high quality cases ( like the Lian li O11 evo xl) for years because I hated working in cramped conditions ever since the time of the cheap beige 'cut-any-finger-you-dare-in' generic brand cases.
I can see now how that helps dodge the weirdest pitfalls.
I love the followup video! This is so great. Thanks again for sharing. Love your videos.
Given the amount of space, that build is looking pretty awesome. I really like the subtle look with the minimum LEDs on it.
Getting actual flashbacks from building my wife's ITX machine a few years back...
Glad you got it sorted, thanks for sharing!
Have been watching back some of the older JayzTwoCents videos and this truck to me. I remember one time when I re-organized my room and disconnected my PC whilst doing it. Once everything was plugged back in, PC didn't start. Nothing worked.
What in the end caused it was a specific USB device in either one of TWO specific USB ports that just caused the PC not to power on at all. No Bios screen, no nothing. Moved the USB device to a USB extension card and another USB device from the extension card to the MB USB port.
This was some 15-20 years back or something
I had the same problem with my nr200p build with the fan. My cpu power cable was pushed up against the fan grill because I ran it up over my air cooler. The insane thing was it only happened sometimes at certain temperatures due to thermal expansion.
This is maybe the best video this year, not only in your channel, but all `pc building` channels. Not only the reason, the way you delivered the problem, investigation and solution. Humble and effective, congratulations bro!
If you’re into that go check out Greg Salazar. He has a whole series on fixing viewers PCs and goes into the entire trouble shooting process.
That's great that Phil's PC is finally working and we see thermal improvement and they don't seem small at all.
I would love to have a video on setting up the intel extreme software in the BIOS, I have not been able to get it working for my new i9 12900KS. I'm missing something in the BIOS and would love to have you do a full rundown on it!
2:40 well when i shut off my PC that click is also a relais that shuts off the main 12V power in the PSU. Some TVs also do that when powering down.
When I unplug my PC, I turn it on while unplugged to discharge any residual power. Usually the relais clicks twice, one for powering on and immediately again for turning off.
FYI: A relais is a magnetic switch, when current goes through the magnet it pulls on a contact and closes a circuit. That is what is clicking. When you turn the PC off, the magnet looses its magnetic charge and lets go of the contact, opening the circuit and stopping the flow of electricity.
Great video , thanks for taking us along the whole ride 😊
Those maxs are a tight squeeze for sure, I had trouble with the ps that came with mine but it ended up correcting itself after a couple tear downs.. just a strange occurrence 🤷🏻♂️
I also have come across the fan problem before where temps are unusually warm. It made noise too. I add custom cardboard cut out washer for the grill and it solve the temp issues
I used to have random shutdowns where the culprit was a Corsair commander pro with a faulty fan header. The funky thing is the faulty fan header wasn't even in use... I only found out when I needed the faulty header and RMA'd it... After it was changed no more random shutdowns.
I use low profile 140mm fans under my O11 Air Mini. Works great and allows me to mod the vertical bracket to put it closer to the bottom so it doesn't cut off the CPU cooler when looking at it..
I have had systems crash from the fans getting stopped by a wire or me bumping them in the past. It might cause an overload because the motherboard is trying to dump more amps to get the fan to spin IDK.
As soon as you said that the one fan was plugged into the cpu fan header, I KNEW that it had to be a problem with a fan not spinning. A buddy of mine was having issues with his PC a while back (it was jank and super budget should be explanation enough i hope) and he was having problems with his PC constantly shutting off and crashing after his cpu fan quit working. He had taken the side panel off and pointed a box fan into it as an alternative to cooling his cpu instead of buying (at the time) a $30 cpu fan for his specific fin stack. He was so confused as to how he was having problems weith better thermals than before, but would crash every time he launched ANY game. It wasn't until he plugged in a new CPU fan to his cooler and never had a problem again. Its probably some protocol with the instruction set of the CPU itself (or motherboard) that if the thing that is supposed to cool the cpu isnt doing the thing its supposed to do, to shut down to prevent thermals geting out of hand and damaging the chip
This is such a dope SFF powerhouse. Thank you for taking us along on the ride.
I might be wrong especially for modern mainboards, but old ones had CPU fans with notably higher power draw, if you used a old CPU fan with bad bearing (higher resistance) as chassis fan it could easily fry your motherboard.
If you think that one was hard to diagnose: I once had a power LED fail in a way where it was still working but drew too much power and shut down the PC (oc protection?). I tought I was going crazy because everything worked outside the case (where I didn't have the power LED connected) and the last thing you'd suspect is a working LED.
I love my NR200, it's awesome to be able to take apart an ITX system and work on it without having to rip everything apart. Happy flying Phil, keep the blue side up!
Can I just say, was listening to this in my car. Montage music kicks in and it freaking bumps quite nicely.
Most unexpected problem we ever had on a completely new build was a bad IDE cable. Yes, it was a while ago, but, a bad new cable is very rare. It would boot fine, somewhere during installing Windows it would conk out. You start checking other things first, HD, Mobo, PSU, even memory, CPU, the chances of it being a brand new bad cable is just astronomically low in comparison because it's such a simple part.
That is a pretty cool build Jay, congrats Phil on a sweeeeet PC.
Very helpful and glad Phil's system is working!
Jay, there's a few things going on here. The PWM signal is just that, low voltage a control signal, telling the fans how quickly they should spin. Even with the one stuck fan, the signal will pass through correctly allowing the second fan to spin as requested. This tells me that no weirdness was going on with the control PWM signal at all.
The power required to spin the fans is coming from 12v, and the stuck fan, trying to spin at the requested speeds, would have used a ton of current trying to start spinning, this is what tripped the OCP for the 12v rail.
I don't know how those fans handle reporting their own rpm when they're daisy chained, but normally it's just from the first fan in the chain and subsequent fans are just assumed to be doing the same, or almost the same, as the first. Ideally it should read as zero rpm as the fan wasn't spinning, but it's likely that the motor, pulsing current with every attempt at starting, flooded the tachometer signal with garbage that the motherboard couldn't decipher.
primo tech tip learned from this Jay! It is amazing, even with me, that sometimes the littlest thing causes the biggest of issues! Thanks for sharing brother!!
PS: That build is SICK!!
11:10 Fan was stuck, and it was pulling too much power trying to get it to turn which tripped over current protection!
I’m soo thankful Big PC cases don’t bother me. I’ll never understand why people want to build these tiny extremely powerful PC’s
Anywhere that space is a premium, especially something like an efficiency apartment or tiny house, for example.
Some people also just hate the idea of an appliance sized computer to look at, and are willing to spend the money and/or effort of SFF builds.
It’s not because of the PWM, it’s because the rotor is locked which causes the motor to overheat and trip the OCP. Great job in finding that one, don’t have a lot of space to work with in that case!
I had a similar problem with one of my servers once. I had a wire that snagged a fan when I would screw the system back together.... Pull the lid off the rack and it would run fine... huh?? put the lid on and it would randomly shut off. whaaa?? I eventually figured out was happening and just rotated the fan 90 degrees so the wire wasn't stupid and its been fine for 2 years, in the rack running Proxmox.
Wouldn't it be possible to use smaller diameter tubing to help with the clearances? Or would that require significantly higher PSI to cool the same volume of liquid?
If those are the size of tubes I think they are (Outer diameter 13mm and inner diameter 10mm) you cannot go smaller without an extremely tiny amount of options for fittings/plugs unless you're willing to mill your own. I only ever seen one build with tubes smaller than that. It was in a Velka 5. And the person had to make their own fittings, their own cpu and gpu blocks, and had to replace an exterior panel with a de-shrouded radiator to get it to work. That level of modding I think would take several weeks of work. Many months if you have to go to an external source for the parts milling.
That's not particularly large tubing to start, and the problem is the fitting, which really don't get any smaller, even down to 10mm tubing.
My big question is why are systems so small so popular? I prefer a nice, big tower. I've got a Corsair 7000X main system, and my two self training lab machines are in Thermaltake Core V71 cases. I really don't like those tiny cases. It makes putting the machine together so much more difficult.
I think part of it is form factor, some people prefer their PC as small as possible. I think the other part of it is, is because it is hard to do, in terms of getting really powerful systems into really small spots, I think that's why people do it too. Me. I'm on your side. Side give me a full tower case, I would rather have enough room inside my case to put the Atlantic Ocean then there if I needed to, lol. Each to their own, as long as people are enjoying what they build and are using it, I'm happy for them.
As for me personally ( i do own ITX pc) It makes a lot cleaner setup and saves space on desk/looks great (smaller than Xbox X) ive got Motif Monument Stand/case so i have no problems with airflow and temps since i do like cooler temps in my room anyway imho its boils down to preferences i could build "normal" "big" pc for lot less but it would automatically landed under the desk :D
A smaller case is easier to move around for upgrades/dusting and takes up less desk space. My first real build was in an NZXT Khaos and moving that thing always sucked. Now that I'm using NR200 I can't see myself ever going back
I think , with SATA being basically completely optional in modern builds, we're at a point where the trade offs are minimal for a typical mid-range build and we're one major innovation away in PSU cabling or GPU efficiency (one that makes 3 fan cards pointless) from NR200 size cases from becoming the default.
Ah, the bizarre joys of building and testing computers, you run into so many weird situations. Had one a couple months ago when I built a computer for someone. Significant RAM corruption, thought it was bad components. It was a singular strand of hair I'm assuming making contact with the pins. Removed it, problem fixed.
As others have stated, a forcibly stopped fan will use way more current than a properly running one but also, fans that are daisy chained only have the first fan report RPM sense. PWM (or pulse width modulation) only tells the fans how fast to spin, RPM sense tells the motherboard “I’m spinning this fast.” The combination of high amperage and low rpms was possibly tripping some internal cutoff to prevent damage.
Learned some valuable information through this troubleshooting exercise. That's always a win, great job.
The side panel falling off during the montage was priceless! That's why I'm subscribed. 😂
When I saw this vid labeled "I fixed Phil's PC... You'll NEVER guess what the problem was!" My guess was "Jay overlooked something" on a small formfactor build.
This little beast turned out so sick! Congrats Phil!
I just wish that Jay had flipped the bottom rad over so that the Corsair logo would be right-side-up like it is on everything else. Unless the Corsair rads only have ports on one side of the end tanks, which I wouldn't think they would do. Lol.
Welp, I can't even remotely begin to argue that this title is clickbait. I would NEVER in a million years guess that it was a fan.
That is a really nice looking build. I LOL'd way too hard when the glass launched itself to the ground during the peel!
I remember the reason now why i check if all fans are spinning once a month. 🤣
It's relieving to see that stupid things can happen to ANYONE of us.
I can't remember how many times my head wanted to hit the desk in my 25 years of building my own systems.