Are Split Keyboards Better For Ergonomics?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- After using the ZSA Moonlander split keyboard and comparing it to the fixed Planck EZ keyboard I have made some interesting discoveries. Namely that the commonly cited advantage for the split keyboard isn't actually an advantage at all!
I'm talking about the issue of wrist angle when typing on a fixed keyboard being a problem. In fact the vertical key columns on a fixed keyboard turns out to be quite appropriate for when your hands are meeting in front of you for a fixed keyboard.
Many people seem to think that because your hands are in front of you your wrists must be angled to use the keyboard - this isn't true and in fact the ergonomic neutral wrist position is used for both the fixed keyboard and the split keyboard.
However the split keyboard does have other advantages and I explore those in this video. From my perspective this seems to be mainly in terms of the impact on your back, chest and shoulders. It's about how your shoulder blades/scapulars and your lats are engaged while typing on the split keyboard.
The keyboards I'm using in this video are the ZSA Moonlander and the Planck EZ. Check them out here: zsa.io
Check out the other keyboard videos on my channel page too: / benvallack
Obviously I am not a medical professional and none of the advice in this video, or any on my channel, constitute medical advice - if you have problems with repetitive strain injuries from computer use you should seek professional advice. This video is purely for entertainment purposes and my own personal opinions.
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This is actually a very interesting channel.
The paint visual was so genius! Content is quality as usual :^)
Thanks! 😀
I agree. I think that paint trick is something everyone who is serious about figuring out what works for them should be doing. My shoulders are much broader than Ben's -- and therefore the "ideal" position and orientation of the keyboard for me is very different than it is for him. This really was a great video.
I absolutely agree that a split keyboard can have massive benefits for your back when working at a desk all day. I can't say I agree with your take on non split keyboards, but that is just due to how my arms seem to rest when using that style of keyboard, my left wrist in particular has quite an extreme angle. For you it is different.
I think that in itself is a good take away from this video & the comment discussions. There is neither a right or wrong answer to the question posed in the title. Some people can type all day on a 60% without issue, where as others can end up with serious shoulder & wrist pains. If you do end up with these pains, a split keyboard is a worthwhile investment.
The advantage of a split keyboard is that you can put both halves together and use it as a fixed keyboard, or you can split it and set the halves at any angle you want. Try to do it with the fixed keyboard.
I would love to see a mouse, roller ball, or pen/tablet incorporated into this shoulder ergonomic discussion. That’s where I suspect there might be an advantage to a plank keyboard over split (especially if you need to rearrange them with any frequency).
This is where I'm at right now.
have my pointing device on the left, keyboard in the middle, pen on the right. (I'm right handed but it's pretty easy to learn to use a mouse or trackball left handed)
Interesting video. I like your use of the paint. I disagree though with what you say about the angle of your wrists on the traditional small keyboard. I can even see your wrists angled more on the small keyboard when you are not focusing on wrist angle later in the video. In my opinion, an ergonomic keyboard relieves tension in the wrist. In fact, the small keyboard you use will quickly inflame my wrists; I would not recommend those keyboards to anyone.
At 3:09, you fixed your thumb in place and then pivoted your wrists about them.
This explains why you were finding the split keyboard so difficult; I've never used the Moonlander but it seems the thumb buttons are fixing your thumbs in place quite far away from the rest of the keys.
Can we appreciate that this man split his torso for the thumbnail?
Great video. But it's not the lats that pull your shoulder blades down, it's the lower trapezius
Ah ok I misunderstood that thanks for correction!
@@BenVallack Thanks for the vid. I almost bought one of these non-split "ergonomic" keyboards with keys rotated inwards, but you saved me.
Ha cheers! It's quite possible I'm getting it wrong but when I test it the only way for me to hit all keys without excessivly moving my whole hand is in the position I show here.
Great video and very insightful!
Regarding the anatomical side, you’re actually both right technically. Trapezius is far more involved in shoulder depression than the Latissimus Dorsi. However it is very common to have an insertion point on the inferior angle of the scapula for the Latissimus dorsi muscle, ergo it is involved in shoulder depression in *some* people just not everyone.
Also in regards to general health of the shoulder joint complex the Latissimus is extremely important as it does attach to the Humerus via the Intertubecular groove and as such any amounts of external and internal rotation will affect how much tension runs through that muscle so to speak.
Sources:
I’ve seen it in dissection
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3768243/
Grays anatomy books also refer to the inferior angle as an insertion point for the Latissimus.
Sorry for the ramble I just like anatomy lol
@@pierrepreston7827 Awesome thanks for the info!!
Hi Ben, thanks for the new vid, that’s an interesting take on the split boards! There is one thing that I think would be interesting to bring up though - tenting
I think that’s the thing that makes the world of difference if you have pain in your forearms, I would highly recommend reading about carpal tunnel syndrome to get more into it, but in a nutshell - having hands palms down parallel to the desk is not ideal, while having them with a bit of a vertical angle (i.e tenting) alleviates the pain entirely
Now of course tenting is not necessarily synonymous with split keyboards, but I would go as far as to say that people that buy split boards for ergonomics buy them almost solely because of tenting
Yes totally agree. I think tenting is really important for sure - I'm exploring a few ideas there as I think the tent on the Moonlander isn't enough to make as much of an impact as a more aggressive tent, especially if the thumb clusters are flat.
I can attest to the tenting vs non-tenting aspect from personal experience: I've used exclusively "ergonomic" keyboards for the past three and a half decades, most recently the MS Sculpt. I wanted to get into mechanical keyboards so I bought a Keychron 75% Alice layout, thinking "hey, it's an ergo kbd!" Well, it wasn't enough for me. The lack of tenting was enough to cause severe wrist and elbow pain (triggering the old RSI that caused me to switch to ergo boards in the first place), in the first week of use. I don't even do a lot of typing now that I no longer have to go to a day job -- I just use my computer for personal use, and yesterday did some PC gaming with my husband and son, which triggered the elbow pain in a major way. This morning I was in tears. Soooo, I'm back to using my MS Sculpt until I can find a suitable mechanical keyboard that will fit my needs (hence my research into split mechanical keyboards). Even a small degree of tenting can make a massive difference.
Ben you say that your tendency is to NOT bend your wrists outward when typing on the Planck, but then the video shows that you are bending your wrists outward, perhaps just not to the extreme degree that you illustrated initially. It's just not possible to keep your wrists straight and flat on a keyboard that is so dramatically smaller than your shoulder width. This problem is worse the broader your shoulders.
They appear bent out in a few shots where I'm moving my fingers around but when I'm typing my wrists remain neutral to my forearms and that is what also makes for the most efficient motion of my fingertips to reach the keys. So much so its the best angle when split too.
It also depends on the ergonomics of your desk. If the distance from the shoulder to your desk is shorter than your shoulder to your elbow, you would tend to your elbows out, though giving need for the more "ergonomic" split. This is easy to test by changing the height of your chair / desk.
I have a split and I tilt each half with the center-side downwards (the opposite as what he did at 2:10. It helps with both finger and wrist alignment. I thought that was the way to use them. What Ben is doin in the video will make my experience a lot worse than a convntional keyboard
I've been kinda dreaming of a split keyboard with a nice small trackpad that is controllable by your thumbs. just no shoulder movement necessary at all, and hopefully a faster and more direct connection with the computer
What you do on 00:31 is almost the same on 01:23. Wrists always are under stress on classic "typewriter" keyboard. These standards were created 150 years ago.
Hey, interesting video! I am curious if you tried typing with the Moonlander keyboard in it's "proper" alignment? It seems you found your preferred angle to be the exact opposite of what is intended. Having the keyboard angled outwards like that would cause significant ulnar deviation, which kind of defeats the purpose of having a split keyboard in the first place.
Yep the problem with having it aligned for my figers is I can’t hit the top row with my little fingers. I’m not proposing you angle your wrists to achieve the outer angle, just to hover over the board at that angle, which actually works!
2:44 nah, you are cheating. That's your thumbs what is actually draw this trajectory, not your fingers. Actual lines will have about 45 degrees for each hand, I just tried.
I have used split keyboards for 11 years, Kinesis Advantage Pro, TEK, ErgoDox EZ. This video matches perfectly my experience. It is not really that big deal, and your wrists are not as contorted as in most schematic figures, like Ben illustrated. Nowadays I use a Keychron K2 because I realized that, and while I prefer split everything else being equal, mechanical but wireless has higher priority for me today.
The new Dygma Defy ticks the wireless box (while being mechanical and split ofc).
I completely agree about the shoulders, it's the main reason I use a split keyboard.
But the finger motion not so much.
You're (we're) just so used to the fanning out of the fingers due to normal keyboards, if you put your hands in a wrist support or just hold your wrist so it doesn't move, the natural motion of the fingers is straight, with the exception of the pinky.
I've got a moonlander as well and had trouble writing on it, until I realized that rotating the keyboard out was just doing the same thing I found so annoying about normal keyboard. Once I got used to it being straight, I found it much more relaxing on my wrists.
I say this as someone with lifelong orthopedic troubles, so if I'm doing something wrong with my wrists, I can feel it very quickly.
And even if it's a natural movement, we usually put pressure on our wrists to turn them outward, contacting the thinner muscles on the outside of your arm. So if you set up your split keyboard in the other direction, turning your wrist inward, you're using the larger top/inner muscles, and relieving the overworked outer muscles.
All of this said, I'm no doctor or physical therapist. So I might be completely wrong.
But for me it felt much better after I had my moonlander far apart and almost completely horizontal (still working on finding the best angle /setup)
Very interesting, thanks for commenting, yeah I do wonder if some people may well still benefit from keeping them vertical even far apart.
@@BenVallack I do agree that most of the discomfort is alleviated by the ortho layout, and switch from qwerty to... pretty much anything else. But for people who already have wrist problems, forcing yourself to a horizontal layout might be that bit more healthy.
Depends on the person of course.
Yeah that's really interesting - I just experimented with the 'inline' angle - it seems like there is much more movement involved for the outer fingers to reach the top row - meaning my whole hand has to move to make the stretch. Do you find that?
@@BenVallack if you mean the top alpha row, then for the pinky yes, but that's not used much in colemak. Turning the kb forces the middle and ring fingers lower, making stretching them easier, at the cost of less relaxed fingers. The index finger does stretch a bit, but turning the kb doesn't really change that, if anything the movement is hampered by the middle two fingers. And again, the J in colemak is banished to that corner, so not often used.
The number row is all macros for me, so only in use when I'm not typing.
The thumb is better positioned with the keyboard twisted but only if you have big hands, I found that my thumb naturally rests on the gap between piano keys and bottom row, and turning the hinge up just makes things worse since you're moving your thumb completely in the opposite to the natural movement.
So like it or not, it's inline for me (I'm hoping to get some help in 3d printing a triangular piano key to solve this)
In conclusion, I think that if you use your pinky a lot (i try to avoid this, hence autoshift) turning the keyboard might be more comfortable.
I'm definitely not done tweaking my layout /setup, but I'm generally going by the rule of thumb (heh :p) that the pinky is the weakest finger.
Interesting indeed - for me I think tab and backspace are going to trip this idea up - definitely will do some experimenting though!
It would be kind of cool is those split ergonomic keyboards had the thinkpad trackpoint
I think you should do quite the opposite. You should keep your hands rotated inwards not outwards. By rotating your hands outwards you might put even more stress to your shoulders/elbows/wrists? Idk I'm not physiotherapist, but if you look at ergo keyboards there is a pattern and there should be a reason for it. Google up some images of ergo keyboars eg. Logitech ERGO K860, Micosoft ergo keyboards, X-Bows
They're all close together, I agree if your hands are that close you would want them that way in favour of them being like a fixed board. As soon as you get out to shoulder width though that angle is the other way as far as I can see.
@@BenVallack You are probably right, the angle depends on distance btween those two keyboard parts. I tried sitting for a while in this position where hands are further away and tilted outwards, but to me it feels really uncomfortable and almost immediately I felt tension in my elbows and shoulders. But Idk, it might be because my body isn't use to it, or maybe it isn't ergonomic. Whatever the answer is, I think we can agree one of advantages of split keyboard is that you can try many configurations and that is really cool
Interesting video. I use split keyboard (Levinson at the moment), but I don't have it as far apart as your Moonlander. I have it only 10cm apart and twisted the opposite way - it's in V position. It does help me with the wrist position for me personally. Maybe I'm weird, but if I'm doing typeracer with normal keyboard, I do put my hands in 0:29 position if I want better WPM. Maybe not as drastically, but my wrists are not in neutral position.
I use my splitreus the same way
3:45 never in my life I thought I’ll be witnessing discussion on lats and keyboard usage 😅
Oh yeah!
Great channel Ben. I found you a couple of days ago, as I was finalising my decision to buy a Voyager!
The reason I want to move to split boards is all to do with tight muscles and knots in my upper back, which I suspect the split will really help with. And I totally agree with your findings on wrist angle. I've been touch typing on staggered layouts since the mid '80s, go at over 100wpm most of the time, and have never had wrist problems. If I look at what my wrists and hands are doing while I'm typing, there's very little movement in the wrist and my forearms move around a little to allow my fingers to hit the appropriate keys.
I've chosen the Voyager not because I want to go columnar, but because most of the split boards put the "6" (from the perspective of one trained by a mid '80s typing course) on the wrong side! 🤦
Columnar should be interesting though…
Great perspective on the shoulders! I had not thought of that, and will probably experiment with spreading my Iris wider to see if that helps with backpain I have from time to time. I do, however, disagree a bit on the stuff to do with the wrists.
I agree and do think it is true that good posture can be had on any keyboard. The difference between keyboard types has more to do with how intuitive and comfortable that posture is, but it is totally possible to have good posture on any keyboard.
That said, look at 1:32. Your wrists are spreading outwards and it looks intuitive, but it is bad posture. You would need to extend even more to hit your backspace or escape key, and truly holding your fingers over the keyboard with your wrists straight has them at a bit of an angle, defeating the whole straight columns for straight fingers argument. With my hands, that angle would be even more pronounced, making ortholinear non split keyboards only slightly better than staggered for me personally. That is why symmetrical staggered boards exist such as the Katana60, because it is more intuitive to approach the keyboard at a symmetrical angle if the keys are to not be split in the middle.
And that is where my disagreement comes in. I think there is an ergonomic advantage at the wrist to split keyboards that ought not to be wrote off. The ability to twist and adjust the angle of both halves independently is a HUGE benefit to MY wrists anyway, as it allows me to angle the boards so that the intuitive position is the ergonomic one. Something an unsplit staggered OR ortho board could never do.
All of that said, thank the lord you are hovering your wrists and not using wrist rests. It peeves me to the end of the earth that SO MANY VIDEOS on youtube of people with split kbs have their wrists mounted on the desk twisted at horrible angles.
Keep up the great videos. :)
Totally agree opening the chest is a huge unsung advantage of split, but for me I absolutely have to put my wrists in an awkward position on a normal keyboard just to get them to align with home row. It probably depends somewhat on the size of your arms, hands, and muscle memory. If I just put my fingers down on the keyboard I can rest in a sort of neutral position but as soon as I start typing my wrists are twisted to keep my fingers aligned with where I expect the keys to be. Split helps me a lot with neutral wrist position
I would encourage anyone with wrist pain from typing to try a split. It worked for me.
Awesome, I think the fact that you are free to get the exact angle you find comfortable goes a long way.
One thing to mention is how split arms opens up your chest. There are conditions where one can develop chest pain or back pain because of the curling in that the shoulders are required to do in order to keep your hands close together. Everybody’s body is different so it comes down to what works for you.
2:48 You're not just opening and closing your hands. You're moving your whole forearms forwards and backwards. If you just expanded your fingers, they would move like that: /\ if you had your palms close together, like that: || if you had them farther away and nlike that \/ if you had them really far apart.
Hey Ben, I would like to mention a couple things which I dont understand.
The way you put the moonlander doesnt make sense at all mate, who types like that?
also yea you are right when you say you can get used to the posture required to type on the planck but why would you adjust yourself to something less comfort?
coming from a moonlander, I dont see how I can write on that small keeb, even if it's ortho.. I would still have to close my chest and have that shoulder movement again which can only lead to shoulder pain.
I don't really understand your comparison here but maybe i am the weird guy and every moonlander owner places his keeb as you do.
would love to hear your thoughts about it mate.
I tend to have my halves closer than I did in this video now. There is definitely some comfort in going super wide from time to though. Basically the wider you go the more the halves need to rotate, the question is how much that should be. And that comes down to finger length and column stagger to a great extent.
@@BenVallack
I appreciate the answer. May I know what keeb are you using as your daily driver? (is it that still the 34 or 36 keys you built?)
@@heeku_ This one: th-cam.com/video/0d8mjsVgk1k/w-d-xo.html
I used a laptop to type my three last books, and developed the worst kind of frozen shoulder to the point that I could not even raise my hand to shake hand with people. 15 years later, I still suffer and I wish at the time I had used a slipt keyboard. The wrists are more affected by prolonged use of a mouse. Using a vertical mouse like Logitech MX Vertical or Evoluent can help with that.
In 2016 after I started climbing at 45 climbing pointed out (with my new-found climbing partner that’s a chiropractor telling me plainly) that I had rounded shoulders from way too long of typing and other stuff with poor posture, so I needed to get physical therapy for my shoulders.
It’s going to likely take a few months and cost you whatever it is locally for you, but it’s absolutely worth the effort, time and money.
You encouraged me to angle out my ergodox a bit more. Thanks! This does feel better right away. I like split boards a lot. It didn't take me long to get used to it either, but that may be because I had already switched to the Colemak Mod DH keyboard layout so I already bent my mind in that way
Awesome!
More than anything, I really like my split keyboard because of the tenting it feels much better for my elbows and forearms. Twisting the ulnar bone across the Radius bone in the forearm is a common reason for carpal tunnel in the elbow and wrist as our hands naturally sit in a vertical orientation not horizontal. Having the keys at a more vertical tilt is much more natural but is an impossible angle for a normal keyboard to sit at. As a programmer I do type a lot, and during college I always wondered why my forearms we're always so sore even though I tried my best to sit correctly at my keyboard. After switching to a split keyboard at a fairly sharp vertical angle it relieved a lot of tension in my firearms since I could then type without needing to twist them so much for a horizontal board.
Yeah definitely tenting is super comfy
Ergodox EZ is really awesome. I had serious ergonomic issues before I switched to the Ergodox EZ about 5 years ago now. I was getting numbness in the hands and back pain even with ergo keyboards. I started using the Ergodox EZS and now 12 hours of typing is incredibly comfortable. If you are a VIMMER this is a match made in heaven. I even have a "mouse mode" which is pretty much the same as the VIM cursor keys.
The shoulder width is one aspect. The other is the rotation of the forearm to get into a normal typing position. I'm no muscle expert but I'd surmise that is where the wrist pain starts to come in.
One size doesn't fit all ... which is why that paint trick is so valuable. I have very broad shoulders ... and if I have a non-split keyboard, my wrists are turned to a bit of an extreme. Even with the halves split, I have the keyboard halves rotated inward where the video has them rotated outward.
I don't know what you do but my blades are not moving when I move hands in horizontal direction in front of body.
Also do not use so tiny keyboards. Hands on regular sized keyboard is much wider than on yours.
I think the advantage is not the alpha, its the thumb expand that allow for buttons that are hard to hit normally without leaving position like function and backspace...
Hmm. Your experiment somehow suggests, that all split keyboards MUST be at that distance, so that they are equally uncomfortable to the non-split counterpart.
I was suffering by 12 hours working days on an Apple keyboard around 2012 when I ordered a Kinesis Advantage. Both split and non-staggered. Then I built an Ergodox, thinking that wide-split would be even better. Should the Ergodox have concave keywells, it might be even better, but I stuck with the Kinesis and its moderate split as it was a perfect balance.
That said. I rotate my Ergodox (or my TenKeyLess gaming keyboard) in the opposite direction you do on the video to follow the natural direction of shoulder-elbow-hand. How you suggest turning it is a deliberate reversal of the positive effect of a split.
Either way ... I like your channel, but I honestly think that what you suggest here is total non-sense. The one-piece-split keyboards are rotated how I rotate my Ergodox or normal keyboard (when using with one hand : e.g. gaming with left hand, mouse on right) so what you suggest is that the V should be pointing away from you instead of at your. Kinesis (not the Advantage), Microsoft and all other staggered ergo's point the V at you, where the legs of the V represent left and right part of the keyboard....
Just my 2c, we are all built different ... with really-really broad shoulders like mine (I am 187cm / 6'3'') I cannot stand non-split for long typing sessions...
Yep the fixed-split ergonomic keyboards have the inverted V because they have close hand positioning. Arguably even easier than the ortholinear approach for close hands. The further the hands go the more the rotation goes out like I show here. This width is much wider than the fixed 'ergonomic' keyboards from Microsoft etc. It's important to understand the angle is connected to the width. Close hands: upsidedown V or ortholinear, medium-wide might be almost vertical, then very wide is rotated outwards.
@@BenVallack You are deliberately misinterpreting things at this point to prove your theory, and are even contradicting yourself in this very comment... Sit comfortably with a straight back on a chair with armrests, placing your arms/hands on the armrests tabletop, and tell me that you 'naturally' place your lower arms absolutely perpendicular, straight forward from your shoulders, with your hands flat (or near flat) on the table?! Either you are built entirely unique, with no similarities to no other human, or you are in fact telling a lie...
You'll have to show me a video where you aren't in fact 'lying' with your body position like you are doing in this video, tenting your hands and not the keyboard to convince me... keyboard
A more natural resting position is with the lower arms at a slight angle inwards, hands apart roughly the same width as a standard full-size keyboard... At this point, in a relaxed position, the keyboard halves needs to be turned in a V, and the tent is roughly 30-50 degrees instead... Exact angles and width are individual, but the general consensus on split keyboards as well as what any person trained to look at a body and determine incorrect posture would tell you, it contradicts your theory...
I like your content, but you have a habit of sticking to a theory beyond the point of rational thinking...
@@RandomName100 I'm certainly not sticking to anything and I'm very happy to be corrected and even happier that these discussions are happening. I'm not advocating the fairly extreme width I show here as in any way the 'best'. Really just that I quite enjoyed it being that width but I actually do also vary the width from time to time just to mix things up a bit. What is interesting is the board to forearm angle though, as that seems to be the thing that is being a bit devisive. I totally agree tenting makes everything less extreme and much more comfortable. My paper test is certainly not suggesting flat is better. All it shows is the paths the finger tips takes when opened and closed on a flat plane. This is the key point that results in that outward angle reducing finger travel and effort. The angle being proportional to the width apart. I think as someone else said about 20cm apart is pretty good and at that width the halves are pretty much straight forward or slightly out for me. Then if they're right next to each other they could be inwardly angled slightly like the microsoft ones etc. If you're going for a really wide width then the angle comes out again. The point is to reach the outer upper row keys without moving any more than my little fingers, I need that cross-board finger angle. If nothing else I just wanted to hightlight that using a fixed keyboard isn't actually as much of a disaster as people think.
@@BenVallack Well, glad it’s a discussion then, not a sermon... :)
The point I was trying to make is that on your extreme case, with the keyboard parts at shoulder width, you are in fact ‘cheating’ by tenting your hands a lot more than the keyboard, altering the angle you put them at... That’s why your findings ‘go against’ common conception, as you are essentially getting a ‘false positive’... But then again, if you had said in your video that it was only one of many positions, then I’d be 100% on board, because that is infact the main advantage of a split!
@@RandomName100 Ah yes I see what you mean, definitely a good point and one I've thought about since the video actually. I will do a follow up and clarify these details for sure!
An ortholinear arrangement is more ergonomic than staggered layout for all 0 people on earth with equally long fingers. This "ortholinear is more ergonomic" myth is constantly being rehashed, and I regrettably fell for it and purchased the Moonlander. It is rather painful to use. Due to the fact that your fingers aren't all the same length, the staggered pattern will always be better than ortholinear. On an ortholinear layout, it's difficult to impossible to reach the q, w, o, and p keys with your ring or little fingers without constantly lifting your wrist up, given that you really position your fingers in parallel with the key columns as is expected on ortholinear (or is it not?). OTOH on staggered layout, your hands should simply form a triangle so that all of your fingers, including your pinkies, can rest on the home row and you can comfortably reach all surrounding keys with minimal travel. And this way there is no weird wrist angle, it's just straight line. If you just cheat and try to use the Moonlander as staggered layout by rotating it the opposite way (as you showed in the video), suddenly the thumb cluster becomes useless as you are not able to reach it anymore, plus your palms do not fit the palmrests. I am still trying to relearn typing on ortholinear but it just does not make sense to me. Maybe my hands are too small or my little fingers are too short, I don't know. But it's true that my wrists are sore and I developed uncomfortable feel in my tendons for the first time in my life, after trying to use this ortholinear thing for a week. Not the result you aim for when buying ergo keyboard.
ok, well i was stunned to see that with your arms at an angle, from your shoulders to the keyboard, and your hands in line with your arms, when you extend your fingers, they are moving perpenidicular to your body. When I extend my fingers, they align pretty well with the staggered keyboard layout, so for example, my index finger goes from U J M in line. Stange.
I neck and back felt better with split. I just have issues remembering which key is one which board
What do you think of keyboards with Alice/Arisu style layouts? Does that help with ergo at all based on your elbow pivot theory?
It is actually not totally true. You don’t have to bend your wrists too much if your fingers are long. But a lot more otherwise. Also if you use ctrl key and the lower left cluster a lot, you tend to bend your left wrist a lot.
1:51 you say there's really no difference and yet, I can see ulnar deviation on the fixed keyboard. Also, those halves of the Moonlander are way too far apart
Split is about sholders not then wrists. Most wrist rests are terrible. you want your wrists in line with you arm and hand. Resting your palm on the table is better. Wrist rests will give you carpal tunnel.
Great video, I really enjoy your insight and thought processes on the various items in your videos.
0:29 I don't imagine doing that. I actually type like that on a horizontally straight board, and yes IT HURTS, so that is why i need a split one, or just a one-piece keyboard with two differently angle parts (actually now I'm using a ZSA Moonlander though). Maybe my joints are differently connected than yours I don't know.
So yeah the answer to whether or not a split keyboard will help you depends on how you use a straight one.
I personally find split keyboard way more comfortable to type on and can type on a split keyboard for longer period of time
I thought the idea was to have the arms more or less parallel, not splayed outwards.
How would you use a mouse or mouse alternative ergonomically with a split keyboard?
As one who own this split keyboard, i'm still trying to find out the most ergonomic way to use a mouse. I've seen some people put the mouse inbetween the keyboards but I'm not sure if that's actually ergonomic.currently i just move one half closer to the other half when i know i have to do a lot of mouse action.
I use a trackpad in the middle. It does feel more of a pain to use with a split though which is something I cover in my Moonlander review. Mouse mode works well though - checkout the other video I have on that!
Having a split keyboard like that, would it make sense to go one step further and get some ergonomic furniture or something? Or maybe attach the halves to the arms of your armchair?
For sure!
Great vid! I've been using split keeb for a few months and always wonder why I didn't the benefit on the wrist as I thought it would. Also, it turn out I positioned the sides inward instead of outward, thinking they're more in line to my elbows. So I didn't see any benefit to my back either.
Definitely going to try twisting it out and see if it gets better for me. Thanks!
Wait, it should be inward right ? Doing it outward just make your hand more open. It really depends on the your hand position really. If you like it to be closed to your body than it should be inward, if you open arm or away from your body than outward should be the most comfy position.
Basically follow where your hand pointing right ?
they should make a planck that breaks at the center .... so you have options whether you're traveling or at your desk.
also I found one advantage to the planck is that since it's so small, you can improve your posture by placing it closer to you, which I think helps keep your shoulders from hunching forward as much.
the experience should be similar to how pianists play and posture their hands over the keys
You mean, the "let's split" or the "crdkb"?
@@JesusCliment yes but maybe some sort of way for the two parts to lock together when you're in a tight space
Hey can you make a video comparing kinesis advantage 2 vs moonlander please?
Also I don't know when but you can be on a look out for a new ortholinear model dygma lab raised keyboard (their youtube channel mentioned an ortholinear model may be released soon) and maybe compare that in the future as well?
The appeal of a split board for me is attaching it to a chair
Yes!
Really nice video.
I think foci of relevance lye in the arm/wrist rotation. Perhaps even more important than the shoulder issue. With a split keyboard you can tilt either side separately. Also good for people with a kind of disability.
The other thought goes, we are not built the same. Thinking of that, a split keyboard makes sense as in you would be able to adjust per your body size and type.
Other than that, great video.
Yes I was just going to say this. For me it's much more about the angle of the two sides and bring able to control that separately. When I bend my elbows 90 degrees, my palms (a) don't naturally face the table and (b) don't naturally want to be at the same angle. So for me, being able to tent each side at a different angle is key. I also find that I want different angles when standing than when sitting.
Yes!! Been waiting for this perspective
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:33 🖐️ Using a standard keyboard, it's more comfortable to keep your wrists neutral and your hands resting naturally while typing.
01:02 🖥️ Ortholinear keyboards, like the Planck EZ, help maintain a consistent hand position and make typing without wrist strain easier.
01:39 🔀 When using a split keyboard, the wrist angle remains similar to a standard keyboard, but it allows for a more natural alignment of fingers with the keyboard columns.
03:30 💪 The advantage of a split keyboard lies in its impact on the shoulders and back, as it encourages better posture and engagement of the lats, making it more comfortable for extended use.
04:54 🧘♂️ With conscious effort, you can maintain good posture and engage your shoulders and back even with a standard keyboard, but a split keyboard makes it more natural and comfortable to do so.
Made with HARPA AI
Woah!
Using a split keyboard was the only way I got relief from numb fingers, caused by an entrapped ulnar nerve (cubital tunnel syndrome). The difference is subtle in a way, but has improved my computing life no end.
Great to hear!
I think you are missing a point here: it is not really about how far away the keyboard parts are, but the verticality: how tilted they are. You used a flat Moonlander. What it is supposed to do is more like the Microsoft Natural Keyboards from back in the day or the modern sculpted one. Same effect like an ergonomic / horizontal mouse.
I agree that is a very serious part of the ergonomics - I will be looking at it in another video. The column to finger-angle is a pretty interesting area though. I think once you start using the little finger properly it forces you to use them like this, so the argument is possibly that not using all the fingers is causing excessive wrist bending for many people on fixed keyboards.
You're moving your entire arms at 2:50. Just look at your watch and you'll see you're not just using your fingers, but your entire arms. If you were to keep arms stationary and use just your fingers the lines would be paralell to your forearms.
This exercise with paper and ink at 2:50 convinced me initially when I was watching it, but then I tried it myself and my fingers definitely don't trace straight lines when I hold my hands in front like this unless I move my whole arms to front to rear. In fact looking closely at the video this is what you're doing. Is this really indicative of a natural movement when typing? I don't think so. If I keep my wrists and forearms stationary (suspended above the desk) the lines traced by my finders are essentially parallell to the line formed by my forearm. Likewise when my hands are wide apart. My forearms are straight and the lines drawn by my fingers curling/uncurling are straight too. I have to bend my wrists outward to get straight lines right in front of me. Likewise to use a split keyboard at such out leaning angle I have to bend my wrists outward too. I think anyone using a split keybord like this is negating any benefit from using a split keyboard(except one you mentioned on upper arms/shoulders perhaps).
What I missed in this video is the rotation of the wrist relative to the desk. The length of the little fingers is what dictates this. If the finger length causes enough rotation you end up with what the paint showed.
idk what is going on anymore lol
i’m absolutely in love with this channel
Such a kind comment - thanks!
Hey, really nice job editing and shooting, in case you're short on compliments.
I think one argument for why wrist alignment is not as bad on your non-split keyboards is because of a very important fact: pinky fingers have less reach than index fingers.
When you put your fingers out to tough a horizontal line in front of you (the non-split keyboard) the wrists will mostly be neutrally aligned with the arm, as illustrated. But if fingers were all the same lengths, I do think wrists would crook in as per the theory you're disputing.
That leads to my fingerpaint-less way of aligning my keyboard.
I just decide how much "down and back" I want for my shoulders and back. Sometimes I don't want it so intense. This can lead to a pretty wide variation in how distant my keyboards are. The forearms do pivot radially from the elbow, so not different from your video.
Anyway, so I sit up right (sometimes). And put my hands on the table. Since the columns of the keyboard are parallel, and not radial, I keep my fingers parallel too, but neutral. And then I arrange my keyboard underneath such that my index fingers are above R and U. My pinkies are above Q and P. And my thumbs are above the first keys of the thumb cluster. My middle and ring fingers curl into position. And this is the top alpha row fully outreached. All fingers can naturally curl to the home row and one row below (I accept some hand lift for the top row).
It's an easy process. Generally hones in on a good position. And no need for messy, but colorful fingerpaints.
Enjoying the videos. Cheers!
Yes exactly, thanks for sharing your ideas!
Why in the world would you put split keyboards so far apart??? I figured they should be close together, like the Apple Adjustable Keyboard and the Microsoft Natural Keyboard (except that you can fine-tune the angle). On the ortholinear keyboard, you demonstrated that yours hands want to be at an angle. That cries out that you should put the split keyboard close together and angle the two sides inward to match the angle your fingers want to be.
You can put them where you want to - I did have them super wide in this video and now generally have my splits about 20cm apart - but sometimes it’s nice to have a bit of a stretch and get your chest stretched out a bit!
I know I'm 10 months late to the party, but I gotta chime in anyway...
Sorry, but your "paint on the finger" demonstration of finger motion isn't very convincing. I'm sitting here with my wrists on the rest and my hands on the keyboard, thumbs on the spacebar, and as I open and close my fingers they definitely move diagonally on the keyboard. What you were clearly doing @ 2:51 was pushing your wrists out and pulling them back in, while also moving your fingers.
And on top of that, your paint lines weren't anywhere near parallel either. You mentioned the obvious angle to your pinkies, but your index finger lines also converge - being significantly and noticeably closer together at the top than at the bottom, and your ring fingers (particularly the right) has a dramatic bend outward at the top of the movement. I'm fairly sure (without doing a frame-by-frame stop motion analysis) that the outward curves are the result of your two outer fingers' natural tendency to move laterally, combined with the more 'vertical' motion of your wrist.
You also move your wrists when you switch to having your hands further outboard at 3:10, but this time you move your wrists much more left and right, and thus get the much more diagonal lines. I don't think your results have anything to do with your finger motion, and everything to do with the wrist motion coming from your shoulders and elbows.
Looking at your watch as you pretend to demonstrate finger motion makes it blindingly obvious what's happening.
Also - around a minute in, you mention your orthlinear keyboard video. Looking at your paint results, and comparing it to my observation as I sit at my laptop, and both are clear arguments *against* ortholinear (right-angle) keyboard layouts. You even further undermine that when you take your split keyboard halves and angle them so that the keys are at about a 30 degree angle to your wrists because "... people find that more comfortable...".
The staggered keyboard layout is SUPER ergonomic . So much more comfortable than stupid ortholinear. Why else would all the big flagship tech companies out there still be utilizing it in their products in this day and age? And OBVIOUSLY most of us, human beings, are born with our fingers and thumbs slanted to the left. So it's PERFECT. And if someone thinks ortholinear is better than staggered, then they NEED to have evidence, proof, and citations for it or else they just suck.
LOL what? Why would anyone orient their split keyboard halves at that angle? Why would anyone NOT turn them towards each other???
It’s all about little finger length and how much you’re prepared to stretch. Rotating this way reduces the little finger stretch on boards with minimal little finer column stagger. I will do a new video to clarify this as it’s not that clear in the video.
Could put that piece in a gallery.
Oppression of the Modern Man - Finger Painting - A4 White - Ben Vallack 2020.
Great video!
Lol
0:41 your wrist is neutral but then sneaks a little deviation in at 0:44
(Sorry for spam, I think your videos are fantastic - it's so great to see all this experimentation with different designs)
No problem appreciate the comments! Yeah agree it does look like that. Even on my split now though my wrists still adopt a slight deviation.
There is a missing point here; split keyboards can be tilted.
This makes a huge difference for people that have that pronator teres pinching the nerve when wrists are kept horizontal.
yep tenting is for sure a big deal
... why not bring the split closer together, in front of you, rather than on the side ? can get more personalised angles without having the awkwardness of being so far away from each other
Yeah I have since settled on a closer position but also extreme tenting too so it feels very different again. The good thing with these is how much you can experiment.
you just answered my question 2 yrs ago
You have very unique and interesting content. Keep it up. The number of people interested in keyboards are rocketing. So I'm sure you'll reserve your self a top seat in a coming competition of TH-cam genre.
Many thanks!
Wouldn't the wrist angle be better if you rotate the split keyboard a bit inside? I thought thats the whole point of split keys.
Essentially you can experiment and use what works well but for me the little finger columns are not staggered enough to allow the board to be used inline with my fingers.
Great content, highly underrated
Thanks so much
Very interesting video, thanks.. I’m currently using a Microsoft Sculpted keyboard, and while it helps with the wrists (for me) vs a standard keyboard, it definitely still has the same issues with my mid-back (as my chiropractor will testify!).
I have a part-built Helidox/Corne split keyboard I need to get finished - even more motivation now!
Why would you use an ergo facing your sides? I use mine pointed in.
Beauty of these is you can use them how you like - but I've found the least amount of finger movement/effort occurs when your hands are aligned as I show here.
Very nice demonstration. I can't wait to put my hands on the preonic or even the planck.
You're turning the split keyboard in the wrong direction.
See other comments on this point
I am really interested in your current opinion on split keyboards being a must if one is combating rsi and would like to work as ergonomic as possible. I am currently using an alice board and I came to that after selling my glove80. But I am still having RSI symptoms and considering a split again.
My thoughts on rsi:
- work standing up
- have keyboard so that your hands are at an angle down from your elbows
- use a split but combine with extreme tent - so it kind of feels like you're holding a basketball in front of you
- make sure your hands are floating in space, no wrist rest
I reckon that's about as good as it gets and I haven't experienced any symptoms in years now
(Obviously I'm not a doctor, this is not medical advice, just my opinion on what works for me)
@@BenVallack Thank you! I will try that. Although I am concerned that this might force an unnatural angle for my wrists, if not using a tented keyboard or a negative tilt setup?
@@GeorgiKarchev Wrists should be very neutral - you can see what I mean here th-cam.com/video/mT3TToFqqEU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=BPN37PYSFMz-MDGJ&t=200 (3:20)
If you put the split keyboard that far apart, where do you keep your mouse? In the middle?
Yep!
He uses a track pad I think.
A lot of people use a trackball in the middle.
3:50 no shirtless fanservice? Boo
I love your lofi videos. Your channel gonna grow soon, Sir.
Thank you so much for the confidence!
@@BenVallack Welcome. Sending you lots of love & good luck from India.
hmm the paint example doesnt make too much sense given how you performed it. your fingers just went out based on where your wrists were angled.
It looks like you naturally angled your wrists as if you where typing on a keyboard in the close position so of course they stretched straight away. I do wish you would have talked more about the advertised angle of the split keyboards being angled toward each other. Its the only orientation advertised. Even the little cartoon characters are using it that way.
Yeah I will do a follow up vid to clarify that - basically if you bring your hands close together whilst maintaining the angle I show, they come past parallel and then end up in the inverted V. I’m more interested in the angle when your hands are further apart than those fixed boards - so it ends up being parallel and then, if you keep going, angled outwards. However since making this video I have realised that whole angle thing is heavily - and I mean heavily - dictated by the amount of stagger on the pinkie column. So yeah a new video is due!
@@BenVallack excellent reply! I'm looking forward to the new video!
Amazing cinematography! 🔥
Curious - have you noticed (or know) if the benefits (such as alleviating shoulder pain) of having an ortholinear split keyboard with a QWERTY layout are still significant?
Thanks! I'm not sure how much impact the layout might have on ergonomics. The main benefit is coming from the split I would say. Staying on qwerty wont take away from that.
@@BenVallackAwesome, I appreciate your response!
great video thank you
2:05 you should have turned them in to be at least parallel and reduce wrist extension, but then you turned them even further out!
I think the point I'm trying to make is the columns don't work when inline with my forearms due to the pinkie column not being reachable. Hence rotating the board that way so I can reach the pinkie keys. A really aggressive pinkie stagger allows for what you describe but that isn't the case on this board.
@@BenVallack Thanks for your response! Yeah I see what you mean about pinky reach. You're right that greater column staggering would help, although I appreciate that isn't always available/desired.
Perhaps could shift the hand out one column to use the longer ring finger for those ones? I can't test it on my own setup, but would that be a solution?
I actually do get wrist pain while typing on a straight keyboard. Both my wrists tilt outward naturally while typing, specially for coding that requires a lot of keys on both ends of the keyboard. (Probably is because I'm wider on my back than you, I blame quarantine extra weight :V)
I love your channel
would this possibly suggest something along the lines of:
1. for split keyboard, staggered layout is good.
2. for regular keyboard, ortholinear layout is good
Ah! I got my Moonlander but I was still using the 2 halves fairly close to each other. Now I put them far apart and this does feel nicer!
Is it niiiice? It looks niiiice.
am thinking about to buy the ez, trying to select the colour and also googling around for Swedish keyboard.
If you learn how to touch type then you can buy the kb with blank or English keycaps. And also write faster. And more ergonomically.
@@karlgiese6100 haha yeah mate, i have one with backglow at the moment, in the end it turned out that i got myself a planck and the ez. they are really nice keyboards.
The amount of ulnar deviaion (flexing your wrists out to the side) depends on a person's shoulder width. Hypothetically, if your shoulder width was zero, you'd never have a problem with ulnar deviation. On the other hand, if yours shoulder width was one meter, typing would be made near impossible from the sheer amount of deviation that would be necessary to touch-type. For most people, it certainly is a problem and in those cases it is certainly helped by splayed (or even split) ergonomic keyboards.
Split and dvorak
The split gives more freedom of movement. I wouldn't have said typing so far apart would work for me as where does the mouse go? =) subbed though coz I love your content!
Hey Ben, I use a split keyboard - why? My collarbone is quiet huge and I have to veer my wrist fairly hard to use any keyboard with normal normal layout
Fantastic videos
Thank You Ben!