Cam degreeing goes HORRIBLY WRONG!!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
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Your head is decked youll need that aftermarket tensioner. But try this first...pull the belt off and set crank and cam one tooth over and start the belt from left to right so the slack is on the tensioners side
Aftermarker tensioner?? I've never heard of that being a problem.
I’ve had to do the same when I decked the head
I hope he pins this post, had the same issue 100 times and I have always used this method to get it right!
Yes
You all prolly dont give a shit but does anyone know of a tool to log back into an Instagram account..?
I somehow lost my account password. I would love any assistance you can give me.
I run a decked block and never had this issue . I would time it up with the original marks and if all good then it's something you doing wrong with the degree kit. I never use them on my engine making 900hp .Tdc on stock marks
Had that problem before. No mater what I did it was still off half a tooth. Got engine to run and time by Turing the distributor. Runs like a champ.
plain and simple bro I had the same problem, u have to put the timing belt from the front cam to the back cam.. meaning the front belt will be tight n the bak belt will be loose.. then when u tighten up the tensioner again it will pull the belt from the bak from the water pump.. hopefully j noe what I mean.. if not PM me n FB ALLROLLERLOFT.. I'll help u as much I can.. keep it up bro..
DABEAST Moua couldn’t have said it better👍🏻 I worked for Honda for 3 years and that is the way we did timing belts. Most of the D series and B series I’ve done timing belts had slack on the belt. The V6 were the similar we always had slack on the tensioner side.
Just do this. Should work
I appreciate it brotha but I'm not having problems getting the belt tight. Problem is I can set all the timing marks (cam marks and tdc)
In that position I'll apply the belt like normal.. keeping tension on the front side, pushing the slack to the pump/tensioner side.. I should probably mention I have timed a B series countless times and have never encountered this. That being said, getting as much slack as I can out of the long side, where the teeth line up with the belt it is still a bit loose... once tensioning the belt, TDC moves a bit in order to take up that little bit of slack that's left. I tried turning the crank slightly clockwise, grabbing the next tooth up then turning back counter clockwise to pull tension into the long side of the belt before releasing the tensioner hoping it will fall back into tdc but that throws it off even more so than before. It is not a tooth off.. I moved it a tooth in both directions and it throws it off even more. With all that being said, back to the beginning where I have tdc and cams lined up.. I apply the belt using the tightest tooth it can reach on the long side without moving any of the marks, loop the tensioner and pump, apply the tensioner and I'm able to get the belt nice and tight... but doing so, tdc on the crank moves in order to pull that slack out of the long side that I cant get out. I think it's due to the shorter distance that the factory length belt has to travel so it naturally is off and is giving me a screwed up place to start the degreeing process from
@@deadbeatgarage yes tat could be too since u mention u melt the head n block.. what u can do is bring tat belt to auto zone, and make make sure u now the part numba on tat belt, once u take it to auto zone get a belt tat is one or two numba lower then the one u have which mean, match up with the last two numba or last 1 numba lower then the one u have.. the lower the numba one the part numba make the belt lilo bit shorter.. I noe u wana run the gate belt but u have no other option unless custom belt.. but yea.. I see what u means.. hopefully anything I say help..
@@deadbeatgarage make sure u leave the slack to right side which, on the water pump side.. cuz when u pull the belt everything will be tight up n the timing MARK WHICHur worry bout it's not Gona move.. cuz when u pull the tension the water pump is what Gona move only... but if u try tat on the long side which is the left side YES when u tight the tension everything ur still Gona have a slack n u have to move the pully to get the belt tight.. TATS WHY were trying to tell u tight the belt the bak way FOR SURE THE TIMING NOT GONA MOVE BRO.. I dealt with about of B SERIES N D SERIES tat the best way or Esle ur always g9na habe slack on the front side belt if u try to put the belt front he front.. try it u will get what we all mean.. for sure 100%will w9rk
Take off Timing belt
Move crank 5 degrees clock wise
Put timing belt back on and move crack counter clockwise 5 degrees and no more slack and you’ll be on point
Thanks again, brother, this video helped me disassemble my PR3 head.
After you have your belt on the crank and around the tensioner and water pump always start with the exhaust cam gear that way you will remove any slack and your pulling from the tensioner side when going on the intake side.
The way your engine is sitting right now, rotate the crank 1 tooth tighter on the left side and have all the slack on the right
That looks good to me your cam gear marks on top look correct I don't know about the ones you referring to but the factory notches look lined up on top is there markings on your belt that you are missing.
I am not a professional just some suggestions trying to help good luck but you definitely know more about this then me.
Ktuned timing belt tensioner will solve all your timing problems, had the same issue!
Being decked and milled block. Is going to alter your cylinder head height obviously. You may want to put a thicker head gasket to make up the distance so you can get back to the correct mechanical timing aspect of the engine. Do you know what thickness gasket you are running? Cylinder head and block have location to measure with a depth micrometer to check service limits. Lmk
The timing marks on those cam gears are wrong. Grab a oem cam gear and lay it on top of the ones you are using, you will then see what i mean....
You don't need an aftermarket tensioner bro. You just have to pull the belt off and set your crank and your cams one tooth over, then put start your belt positioning from down, to left, to up, to right and then the slack will be on the tensioner side and it will be easier to adjust - eliminate it. Also, you bought these gears used, right? You have to reposition them. One more thing that might be the problem, is that your belt is bigger. You will find the problem i'm sure! You are doing a very good job! i'm just dropping some thoughts about the problem! In most of the cases, it's something stupid and easy that it is in front of our eyes but we can't see it :p Keep it up man, and let us know! Best regards from Greece.
I appreciate it brotha but I'm not having problems getting the belt tight. Problem is I can set all the timing marks (cam marks and tdc)
In that position I'll apply the belt like normal.. keeping tension on the front side, pushing the slack to the pump/tensioner side.. I should probably mention I have timed a B series countless times and have never encountered this. That being said, getting as much slack as I can out of the long side, where the teeth line up with the belt it is still a bit loose... once tensioning the belt, TDC moves a bit in order to take up that little bit of slack that's left. I tried turning the crank slightly clockwise, grabbing the next tooth up then turning back counter clockwise to pull tension into the long side of the belt before releasing the tensioner hoping it will fall back into tdc but that throws it off even more so than before. It is not a tooth off.. I moved it a tooth in both directions and it throws it off even more. With all that being said, back to the beginning where I have tdc and cams lined up.. I apply the belt using the tightest tooth it can reach on the long side without moving any of the marks, loop the tensioner and pump, apply the tensioner and I'm able to get the belt nice and tight... but doing so, tdc on the crank moves in order to pull that slack out of the long side that I cant get out. I think it's due to the shorter distance that the factory length belt has to travel so it naturally is off and is giving me a screwed up place to start the degreeing process from
i dont know wats up. but that extra tensioner sounds right....
db good job don’t worry boss that work is dope
HondaBond is the best gasket maker available. Change my mind. (ProTip - you cant). Also, you can determine TDC off the crank timing pulley and the water pump. There are marks on them.
Try using thicker gaskets
Just a heads up lsvtec or b20vtec will always be off due to deck height differences and depending on how much the deck and or head has been milled or decked it will throw it off.i have an lsvtec mine is off half a tooth the intake cam needs to be set at tdc the move the cam gear 3° it's simple as that.also your head gasket thickness makes a difference as well .
I forgot to add since your degreeing your cam the whole point is setting your centerline degree at tdc and then adjusting your gears to correct the mechanical timing also use the coat hanger trick to line up the belt before attempting the degree,also ktuned and endyne make an external tensioner.i personally have the ktuned and you will have to machine off a small portion to clear the head or grind down the side of the head to make it clear the endyne bolts where the power steering bracket goes so no need to cut,also 1320 makes one too.hope that helps
You need the aftermarket tensioner to degree any motor that has been modified ,so order the tensioner ,you're doing everything correct.
Manz gave the water pump hella ugga duggas and then said 8ft lbs i laughed out loud
Theres an app called HONDAtabase in the play store. It has pretty much all the info on all honda engines...ie..torque specs and engine specs...just fyi...hopefully this helps you out
I just downloaded this good info to have on hand. 👍
What’s the part number on the dowel pin and the drill bit size? I’m the same situation.
I'm not sure my dude.. message me on Facebook later to remind me and I'll check it out.
Get the aftermarket timing belt tensioner wish I was close by man I would definatrly come help
I would loosen the cam tooth adjusters and do.it that way wont harm anything because the lobes are already set
Dude the dukes of hazard pause and explain was awesome lol
Haha I liked it too 😂🤣
Thank you
what about the marking points on the camgears and the markings on the belt,they normaly have to be on the same point.i mean the camgears have a point on them and the belt have little stripes on the side.i see that they dont match...they are a few tooth off.
with fixed camgears they line up and the crankpulley have a mark too.so you heve three markpoints on the belt and they all have to line up.try that and see if it gets better
Do you have to degreeing aftermarket cams like examples skunk2 stage 2 cams ?
@Jake Mitsumura has a point, B-series belt are instal from left to right...are you doing that?
is this the first the you do a timing belt ?
not gud bro hope u can get it sorted!!
Are you don’t Running a b16 oilcooler ?
Make some sense asking questions you lame immigrant
Ismael Alvarado what do you want ?
For you to make some fucking sense idiot
B16a timing belt
GSR belt
You are not doing anything wrong, you DO NOT need a tensioner. WOW the amount of retarded shit in the comment section is amazing. You're doing everything right man. If it needs 12 degrees, then it needs 12 degrees. Plain and simple. Don't second guess yourself, set it to what the cam card wants and be on your way. I'm not sure what motor that is, i'm assuming a b20 or ls/vtec. Every one that I degree is 5-6 degrees out, same as what you came up with.
timing looks like u put it wrong to begin with bro
Bro hit up Daniel Gonzalez from GIP tuning local here in Phoenix I’m sure he can help you bro !
#DBFAM
Notification squad where u at?
Hope you figure out this issue I’m having the same issue I literally have the same set up with same cam gears. All I keep getting told is that a b20v/lsv will always be off a tooth.
Q paso k series
24:22 😬 🍺x18
Just take off the belt go back 2 teeth then slack should be taken care of
Dude! Get up with Mark from Honda Street Garage.. he can definitely walk you through this issue!
28:26 pause here.. the skunk2 cams are ADJUSTABLE. if you bought them used you will need to reposition them. it seems like the exhaust cam is off by a tooth. what you have to do is set the camshaft to TDC and LOCK them with a drill bit in place. then Loosen the SIX hex bolts on the skunk2 exhaust cam and rotate it counter clockwise ONE tooth and then re-tight the SIX hex bolts. your welcome.
Lalito Melito skunk2 cama don’t have the hole on the cams to lock them in
Once you have the slack on the front side, move the crank so the cams move 3 teeth away from each other. then the slack will be on the tensioner and water pump side, and you just torque the tensioner bolt down. That should pull all the slack out of the belt, and the aftermarket tensioner would not be a bad idea either. Look up HondaStreetGarage and how he puts on the bseries timing belt
This is the way I do my timing belt.works all the time
I appreciate it brotha but I'm not having problems getting the belt tight. Problem is I can set all the timing marks (cam marks and tdc)
In that position I'll apply the belt like normal.. keeping tension on the front side, pushing the slack to the pump/tensioner side.. I should probably mention I have timed a B series countless times and have never encountered this. That being said, getting as much slack as I can out of the long side, where the teeth line up with the belt it is still a bit loose... once tensioning the belt, TDC moves a bit in order to take up that little bit of slack that's left. I tried turning the crank slightly clockwise, grabbing the next tooth up then turning back counter clockwise to pull tension into the long side of the belt before releasing the tensioner hoping it will fall back into tdc but that throws it off even more so than before. It is not a tooth off.. I moved it a tooth in both directions and it throws it off even more. With all that being said, back to the beginning where I have tdc and cams lined up.. I apply the belt using the tightest tooth it can reach on the long side without moving any of the marks, loop the tensioner and pump, apply the tensioner and I'm able to get the belt nice and tight... but doing so, tdc on the crank moves in order to pull that slack out of the long side that I cant get out. I think it's due to the shorter distance that the factory length belt has to travel so it naturally is off and is giving me a screwed up place to start the degreeing process from
Jake mitsumura pretty much said what I was going to say but basically when you set your belt make sure that you tension the belt when you're installing it on the left side exhaust side that way all the slack will be on the right side the intake side and everything will stay at top dead center and the tensioner will take the slack out of the belt but don't just let the tensioner do all the work use a screwdriver and pull the tensioner just a little bit tighter than the spring would then tighten everything down rotate it three times counterclockwise and see if it's still stays at top dead center
An aftermarket tensioner??
I think it's off a tooth on the left side that's all
Get with #pfispeed I watch their videos just as religiously as yours. They tune and build all day. #goofybuilt Shane just degreed a motor recently and I’m sure he could set you on the right path
#DBfam
He's got this
I had the exact same problem that I had to work through about two months back with my pro 1 cams. Pissed me off working through it. Feel free to message me if you need my resolve
i wonder if a larger diameter tensioner pully would work to correct this, i have the same issue going on with my b20v
Bro u made this so complicated . I just installed my skunk2 ultra series stage 2 into my k24 than I did a valve adjustment and the car runs smooth bro no problems . Skunk2 makes good cams u really don't need to degree skunk2 cams you'll be ok with a basic valve adjustment
Loll probably ur right but i bet a 20 ur not having all ur hp ....
I made 345 hp all motor I guarantee I got all my hp . But we can bet that $20
If you didn't degree the cams, did you install the them at 0,0. I'd put up another 20 bucks that says you didn't max you hp without degreeing cams.
@@canecapo999 let's do it .let's degree the cams and than git the dyno bet it make the same hp . The shit don't matter with skunk2 cams
@@jasonjackson8683 I already got the dyno numbers to prove it lol. I got skunk 2 pro 2 cams and seen improvement especially in midrange when moving the cam gears. How would you not get a increase in power by maximizing the air into the cylinder? Unless your cams are too big for your set up from the get go and you dont have enough motor for them. But then your hurting yourself either way.
The left side of the belt is supposed be tight before letting the tensioner go right?
Yes, because B/D/F/H engines spin counter-clockwise. The left should be tighter than the right side, and there should be almost no slack between the 2 camshaft sprockets.
I'm not sure what the problem was here. You have adjustable pulleys, so those "timing marks" really don't mean anything. Set you valves as just about to open at the ballpark degree on the cam card, and start from there. Those marks are never accurate with adjustable pulleys. Clay the top of the pistons to make sure interference isn't an issue.
@22:53 you did your math wrong. the BTDC is essentially negative and should be threated as such. your tdc should have been 3 degrees after TDC. not 19.
-16 + 22 = 6
6/2 = 3
Rotate the engine three teeth past on the cams then tighten the tensioner down that sets the tension correctly
im keep scrolling and see your comments...thats the right way to tight the timing belt bfore degreing the cams...
Watch diy mikes china build think he uses a pick tool homemade style on tensioner ep.6 18minutes in
Use paint marks on the timing gear to index the gear to belt. Take off the belt and rotate 1 cam gear a tooth and reinstall. Usually its kinda hard to keep it aligned and tight. I usualy use a ziptie on the 1 cam pulled to hold the belt tight to it. As for aftermarket tensioners. Ive never used them. I had a .30" thou decked d series no problem timig it. Just finished a Toyota were we decked it .20"thou and it was fine. Quick tip is if u tempororly install oem b series cams. They have an index hole in them where u can allign a drill bit into it and keep them locked at tdc
put a long screw in the 1 piston, then rotate the crank until the screw drive go up and doesn't go up any more that is topdeadcenter I think
Just look at the crankshaft pulley timing mark.
this is very common when doing a b20v or lsv using the vtec belt gsr belts are too long. hence why they make that tensioner which is great. but the old school method that i have learned is to always use the b20 belt and water pump or ls water pump and belt. the timing will be dead nuts on and no slack in the belt. if you know who omniman is look him up he is the one who invented the lsvtec b20 vtec conversion. he explains it in a old forum wish i could find it but can't google it you will hopefully find what you're looking for if not get the tensioner because you already have all the money invested in your belt water pump etc. i have always used the ls belt and water pump and the whole water pump creating a aeration problem is actually false so your choice brother!
chris mccauley wait fr?
Does shiloh know how to degree the cams, it seems like he could do it considering he just swapped a 2jz into a freakin honda civic ya know what i mean? Or maybe the machine shop that did ur machine work would know how to do it, usually machine shops build high performance engines and they know how to degree cams, either that or maybe u could get mark from honda street garage on the horn and maybe he could walk u through it
Every time I search the web and find no info about the problem or task I'm doing. Then it almost always means that the other ppl having maybe same problem have to do mostly something unique to their situation and usually their remedy isn't the same as mine. Happens all the time to me. Always have to find the solution myself
I think you have everything timed right and at tdc you just need to get all the slack of the belt on the pully side and push tension on the pully and tighten it and you’ll see bc there is always a lose side on the belt but you can get it tighter it’s a new belt so you have to kinda stretch it to the next tooth your good bro. You just have to get last tooth over the bottom crank gear
First I'm glad your back making videos. second I want to say you have inpired me to work on my civic build once again. Should have stuck with the single cam.... Ha ha ha jk jk. Keep up the great work
Bro, check your IG, BadGuys has a a carbon fiber EF hatchback rear hatch for sale for $250. I tagged you a bunch.
Man I learned this trick from a Honda Master tech. Just pull the tensioner all the way up then put the belt on. It’s hard as fuck but you can slide that belt on. You need the cam holder tool.
I would try using a bigger tension pulley on the belt say h22 I'm no expert but it might help I've never built a Honda motor yet but I have friends that have I've owned about four h22 engines give it a try
Hey man don't overthink it the only thing that would change the speed at what the cam and crank turn in relationship to each other would be the diameter of the gears the distance with the timing belt has nothing to do with it chances are your cam gears wer agreed with a different camshaft that's why it's so far off do what you know the Graham and the cam gear
Bro just wanna know about the b20 vtec wiseco pistong i will change pistong ring npr any issue
You measure the distance between the two lines, and divide it in half and that’s how much you need to advance the cams to get the cams back to true tdc…
seems like youre off a tooth at the cams, it would be worth checking it out, may make you out a couple degrees rather than 6, and the gears are more likely able to compensate for that
Slack supposed to be on tentioner side simply pull up on the tentioner and use the after market tentioner as well
Niccee brother gettin closer an don't sweat it all content rocks 👍🤜🤛😎💪🔰🔰🔰💪
Your in that garage alone brother, but this build is not on your own.
We are right here with you.
Props for the ride along
Your engine only turns in one direction, so you time it in that direction. The "slack" should all be on one side.
Bro I love ur videos and that motor look clean
K tuned ls vtec/B20 vtec timing tensioner, it’ll solve all your problems my dude
Never heard of it can’t even find it can you find a link or picture? Thanks
You're doing it correctly man I had the same problem.
You just made my life so much easyer. I will be ordering my cam degree kit this week. And i already have the 1320 tensioner. Was just trying to wrap my head around all thid degreeing stuff. Im sure the 1320 tensioner will solve your issues
Jafromoble has a great degree video.its based around a 4g63. But it has huge amounts of information on the topic
Thanks for the info will check that out
Definitely need aftermarket belt tensioner
Go get u some corn from that man honking the horn.. bahaha. I love phx
Pull the degree wheel off and set ur timing like normal, set ur cam gears to 0 degrees and with ur timing belt on start over and find tdc with the degree wheel, just start from beginnin but with the timing belt on and with the cam gears set at 0 u shouldnt have piston to valve contact and ounce u get to the point ur at u wont have to do the timing belt tension or anything the n u will have ur tdc and no slack in the belt and then u can continue, im not positive this will work cuz ive never degree’d cams on a honda engine before but it seems like it could work in my head lmao, but honestly i would just wait til someone who has done it before can help u cuz this is not somethin u can afford to have any miscalculations on, u have to be 100% dead on when it comes to degreeing cams otherwise u could trash the whole engine
I hear ya brotha and yes I tried doing it that way as well. Honestly the oem tdc and true tdc arent but hair away from each other. It really doesnt change much
Do you have to do this everything u remove/install the cams?
I have been stuck on this same problem for over a month n still on idea
There is another TH-cam channel called DIY Mike and you should ask him about it I just watch the one where they do The cams and I think they use the same one as you have
It's hard getting ahold of other channels sometimes my dude. Especially if they're bigger than you are.. you get no response.
you need to set it so the slack is on the other side or set it one tooth off then when the slack is takin out it will straignten out the marks its always like that my 1.8t does this everytime
I appreciate it brotha but I'm not having problems getting the belt tight. Problem is I can set all the timing marks (cam marks and tdc)
In that position I'll apply the belt like normal.. keeping tension on the front side, pushing the slack to the pump/tensioner side.. I should probably mention I have timed a B series countless times and have never encountered this. That being said, getting as much slack as I can out of the long side, where the teeth line up with the belt it is still a bit loose... once tensioning the belt, TDC moves a bit in order to take up that little bit of slack that's left. I tried turning the crank slightly clockwise, grabbing the next tooth up then turning back counter clockwise to pull tension into the long side of the belt before releasing the tensioner hoping it will fall back into tdc but that throws it off even more so than before. It is not a tooth off.. I moved it a tooth in both directions and it throws it off even more. With all that being said, back to the beginning where I have tdc and cams lined up.. I apply the belt using the tightest tooth it can reach on the long side without moving any of the marks, loop the tensioner and pump, apply the tensioner and I'm able to get the belt nice and tight... but doing so, tdc on the crank moves in order to pull that slack out of the long side that I cant get out. I think it's due to the shorter distance that the factory length belt has to travel so it naturally is off and is giving me a screwed up place to start the degreeing process from
First gang gang
Are you tensioning the timing belt correctly??!
Un-torque the tensioner, wait literally less than half a second (if your tensioner spring isn't worn out), torque the tensioner down again. It's that simple.
I appreciate it brotha but I'm not having problems getting the belt tight. Problem is I can set all the timing marks (cam marks and tdc)
In that position I'll apply the belt like normal.. keeping tension on the front side, pushing the slack to the pump/tensioner side.. I should probably mention I have timed a B series countless times and have never encountered this. That being said, getting as much slack as I can out of the long side, where the teeth line up with the belt it is still a bit loose... once tensioning the belt, TDC moves a bit in order to take up that little bit of slack that's left. I tried turning the crank slightly clockwise, grabbing the next tooth up then turning back counter clockwise to pull tension into the long side of the belt before releasing the tensioner hoping it will fall back into tdc but that throws it off even more so than before. It is not a tooth off.. I moved it a tooth in both directions and it throws it off even more. With all that being said, back to the beginning where I have tdc and cams lined up.. I apply the belt using the tightest tooth it can reach on the long side without moving any of the marks, loop the tensioner and pump, apply the tensioner and I'm able to get the belt nice and tight... but doing so, tdc on the crank moves in order to pull that slack out of the long side that I cant get out. I think it's due to the shorter distance that the factory length belt has to travel so it naturally is off and is giving me a screwed up place to start the degreeing process from
What's the gains of locking vtec, how does it help the engine?
VTEC is now permanently engaged, so the engine is running on the larger intake & exhaust lobes now, and you will not lose oil pressure from VTEC engaging in a normal engine.
You must lock vtec to degree cams to be able to measure the lift of the larger cam, the bb is only temporary while doing this process
Were is the finished video i just bought this kit and im lost
Did you move the needle bro that was skipped
Hit up Bryant Robinson in Phoenix brotha he can help you out with that fasho
I have and hes willing to help but he is booked! Busy man..
Bravus Don’t take it wrong way BUT Honda engines don’t have lifters. You mean rockers.
Hahaha thanks.
Yessir. 🤙🏻
where do you buy oem honda parts like your timing belt etc?
The belt is an aftermarket campany.. Gates racing.. a lot of my stuff I've ordered off Amazon or I go to Advanced Auto Parts. Honda dealer for some things. Just depends on what it is really, and your budget.
The lobes are adjustable
you can also check to see how many teeth on belt and water pump,there are 2 different water pumps out there for b-series and also different amount of teeth .i believe there a 22 tooth pump and a 21 (obd1-obd2).hopefully you figure it out . good luck .
I’m building my first motor as a b20z2 vtec in my ek coupe. No idea what I’m doing, do you have a build sheet like your printout? Torque specs parts etc?
On the crank pull you have the marking which you know but do you also know that behind the crank shaft pulley there is another pulley. That pulley has a marking which will match up with the block. I would trust that. Let me if that was helpful.
Whats the name of the intro song
I had the same issue with my b20v gsr Head! Same cam gears and cams! No matter what I did I was half a tooth off on the crank side! I found out that it happens sometimes, the engine fires right up and runs like a champ jus adjust the dizzy after!!
I wish I would Be able to help you But you live in Arizona You could either have to run a different water pump which I doubt or you could just don't have enough tension that cannot move 5ﾟ before the cams
This is very common. The secondary aftermarket tensioner, on the front of the engine, is what solves this problem. It is caused by having aftermarket cams and cam gears. Since the keyways are usually cut a few degrees off. The head and block being machined also cause the timing marks to not line up correctly. Just grab a front tensioner and set the cams to whatever baseline the cam card specifies.