Industry Consensus on mixing sealed and ported SUBWOOFEERS
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 พ.ย. 2024
- Got questions about Home Theater, Acoustics, AV equipment, or the science behind it all? Drop them in the comments below, and I GUARANTEE to answer all the questions with a TH-cam Super Feature "$THANKS" ($15 minimum) in an upcoming videos! Here's how:
Use the TH-cam mobile app to open a Short or long form video. Under the long form video, select Super Thanks . If you’re watching a Short, tap Comments and then Super Thanks .
Choose the amount that you want to spend. Select "BUY AND SEND" to complete your purchase.
Your comment will be highlighted with a colorful chip, making it stand out in the comments section, and your support will be publicly acknowledged.
If you'd like to book a private acoustic consultation with me or are interested in purchasing top-tier Home Theater equipment, please visit our website: www.poesacoust....
We proudly carry industry-leading brands like Perlisten, Real Acoustix, Trinnov, RTJ and more.
Follow me:
TH-cam: Subscribe to this Channel / poesacoustics
Website: www.poesacoust...
Facebook: / poesacoustics
Instagram: / poesacoustics
Email: matt@poesacoustics.com
![[LIVE] BABYMONSTER(베이비몬스터) - DRIP | 두시탈출 컬투쇼](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/UG05pxLGwzc/mqdefault.jpg)
Yep, if I didn't have APF option, I'd be in more trouble mixing ported and sealed subs. I'm slowly moving to the darkside of converting my entire system to sealed thus becoming Team Matt Poes over Team James Larson :-)
Booo!
In your opinion, what should a good to very good sealed speakers have as a f3
@@JSchurter For a true full-range system, somewhere below 35Hz natively, so long as the driver can handle the excursion requirements.
Hello gang.. you guys have me building subs... I struggle to find sub drivers With the correct Q in the UK
we have the.
sb rosso sw21/800
um18=22
without taking much time from you can you name a few large driver good for real low end with large xmax..
I HAVE LEARNED A LOT FROM YOU GUYS IT'S LIKE GOING TO SCHOOL. I JUST WITH WISH YOU COULD SHOW US BUILDING MISTAKES BUT I UNDERSTAND YOU DONT BUILD. PS I HAVE MADE A LOT OF MISTAKES
@@jameslarson2277 if you don't mind,
What sealed speakers would you recommend,
2nd in a home theater build, wouldn't a f3 50hz be perfect, considering you'll have subwoofers to take over ?
I’m using a mix of ported and sealed subs in a Trinnov Wave Forming 9.7.6 setup and I’m loving it. The mixed sub combo is in the front emitters 2xVTF-15H MK2 EQ1 1-port, VTF-TN1 EQ1 1-port and 2xULS-15 MK2, in the rear I have 2xULS-15. My room is 20Lx12Wx10H with large 7x7 opening on the front left to a 7x7 equipment room. The opening is covered by 24” of Rockwool. Wave Forming calibration is handling it like a champ. I used to have a null in the middle of the room but it’s all gone with WF. I’m able to put my front row closer to this null than before giving the second row more leg room. (not that they didn’t before, it’s just the recliner has more clearance). Port chuffing is non-existent for me. Watching John Wick 2 Hurts!
That’s good data. They had been very worried about mixing subs originally. Good to know it’s working ok.
Have you checked your Waveforming data to see what performance it’s predicting. I’ve found the prediction to be very accurate.
@@PoesAcoustics I have multiple saved profiles with different calibrations for the same 10 sub only measurements positions (2 row 3 seats) but slightly different distances before and after moving the front row and both look very close. I kept screenshots of the WF results for comparison. Perhaps its because the port tune of the subs are below room modes, and I also have pressurization mode on at 14hz.
@@mpitogo1978How do you like the TN1 vs the ULS-15 MK2?
@@SorikuXIII Don't you mean VTF-TN1 vs VTF-15H MK2? I really like the VTF-TN1, I'm looking to sell both 15H MK2 and get one more TN1. ULS-15 MK2 are sealed.
@@mpitogo1978 no what I meant is right. I know Matt likes the sealed but I'm thinking of getting the TN1, which yeah is ported.
This is exactly what I hear...trying to mate a SVS Ported with 3 vintage M&K push/pull subs. At reasonable volume mates fine. Soon as SVS starts reach its frequency limit...cant avoid the sound of port chuffing. The SVS has more output at 20hz then the M&K's but at the expense of sound quality. Great video...Matt
Thanks!
Thanks! Matt, you've touched on the subject of integrating ported main speakers with subwoofers. I wonder if you could please do a deeper dive on this. I have historically only used sealed main speakers, using their acoustic rolloff frequency to set their high pass crossover frequency and slope and then setting a matching low pass crossover frequency and slope for the subs. Now that I have ported main speakers with a 44Hz tuning frequency, I am using an 80Hz 24dB crossover to keep the crossover frequency almost an octave above the port tuning frequency. I understand that you want the phase response of the respective speakers to match up for an octave or so on either side of the crossover frequency. I would like to more fully understand the principles of group delay, phase rotation, etc. that occur as you go lower in frequency closer to the port tuning frequency. I've read some of what Joe D'Appolito has written about group delay, but you have a knack for simplifying complex subjects. How far from the port tuning frequency is safe to set the crossover frequency to minimize these issues. I may experiment with plugging the ports and measuring the box resonant frequency and reverting to my former approach, but would appreciate your comments on the potential advantages of leaving the ports open such as reduced driver excursion at lower frequencies. The woofer drivers are really best suited for a ported enclosure. As further reference, I am using Earl Geddes three subwoofer approach, and we have talked about the possibility of using his additional practice of using the main speakers as additional sources of low frequency information. He cautioned me on using this approach with ported main speakers, as did Jon Herron when he helped me calibrate my system with my Trinnov Altitude 16. Any thoughts you have on these questions will be greatly appreciated!
That's a very interesting question! I'll make a video about it soon.
Sealing the enclosure, tuning frequency turned out to be 88.7Hz. However the Qtc measures 0.4. Super overdamped so some EQ would be required to hit a critically damped woofer response. Anyone sealing ports would want to understand both the new tuning frequency and Q of the system, correct?
Awesome video. I entirely agree with you.
All 4 of my subs are ported subs and I love how they sound, no port noise, and they blend very well with the rest of my speakers. My system sounds very cohesive. I cross my subs/speakers at 100 Hz. However, the speaker frequency response correction software I use has something to do with it. BTW. All my speakers are ported, center rear ported, and the rest front ported. They sound great! At the end of the day it all comes down to personal preference.
Had a ported Paradigm 12" sub for about 15 years. It was amazing. Retired it last winter for a ported 12" SVS 2000 pro sealed. I miss the ported bass feel. But u get used to what u have
This is great, thank you! Do you think you can run through the bass optimization of full range ported mains, combined with sealed subs? I can’t figure out how to optimize delay/phase, even using wavelets. I was intrigued by this idea from your AV10 review with Gene using MultEQ X for his Perlisten/JL system. Thanks!
Well…plug the ports!
@@PoesAcoustics I don’t think I can, they’re 802d4’s with the bottom port between the plinth and the bottom of the speaker. B&W usually provides port plugs when applicable, on those speakers they did not…
Matt i have been using Ported subs all my life,i dont listen beyond -12db due to living room setup. What i obsered is the port noise is audible at bery high volumes above -10db or so,but at lower levels i never got it. But at these reserved levels am happy with the ported box efficiency
That show it works. The chuffing isn’t all the time. It’s related to air velocity which increases at higher volumes. But eventually the chuffing becomes audible. No port is noiseless.
Hi Matt, thanks for this video. I have a question regarding this topic. What about mixing a ported sub (port tuned to 19 hz) with a pair of sealed kick subs (high passed to 30ish hz)? The idea is that I would be able to even out some of my room nulls (all above 38 hz) while still being able to hit a 16hz in room response with my ported sub. Thanks in advance.
If you can get it all integrate well it can be fine. Very low tuned subs tend to have less interaction since the port tuning is so much below the operating range of the other speakers and subs. But sometimes adding high pass filters to subs like these kick subs introduced its own issues. So just measure and try.
@@PoesAcoustics Thanks for the reply!
Wow! Darth Sidious voice: "The 'port hate' is strong with you." LOL I need to look in to this "port resonance" thing. As always, thanks for the informative video.
Port resonance is a pipe resonance. It makes a honking sound. Normally it’s way outside the operating range of the sub. Most commercial subs are competently designed. They know to avoid it. But sometimes more extreme designs inevitably bump up against it. And diyers don’t always know better. I was one of those. I tried to fix the port problem by tuning lower with a larger flared port. I ended up with a pipe resonance close to the operating range and it would be excited audibly even low passed at 80hz.
DIY full Marty 18inch subs with port tuning below 20hz does not have any port chuffing issue and it costs way less to achieve reference level bass .
I absolutely agree i have the 21 inch version and never here port chuffing
Matt covered multiple challenging elements that accompany a vented alignment; chuffing, resonance, as well as phase inversion and group delay.
@@FOH3663 with multiple ported subs, alignment problem won't be an issue. With manual rew calibration and dsp ,it is way cheaper to get reference level bass.
@@FOH3663take what Matt says with a huge grain of salt. He is hugely biased against ported subs for whatever reason. The same rules apply to both sealed and ported. More headroom = equals less issues. I would challenge ANYONE to point out a sealed system vs a ported system in a blind test, assuming both systems were set up and calibrated to a similar standard. The benefits of ported can’t be overstated. The amount of bass and headroom I have with 3 large ported subs in my room would take a ridiculous amount of sealed boxes to equal. I’ve done many systems with both sealed and ported and both are equally great in terms of sound quality.
@@chandan6119
Agreed
Doesn't any processor/AVR with Dirac and DLBC use all pass filters?
Yes, I believe DLBC does use all pass filters.
Yes it does
@@PoesAcousticswould have been useful info to mention in the video. DLBC is very easy to use and works brilliantly.
Thank you for awesome ccntent. I have a dedicated 31 sqm room with 2 Perlisten D15s in the back and 2 BW SW15 behind the screen. Both brands have EQ settings extending the low end. Perlisten have small / THX / large settings. BW have EQ A B C - with A extending most and ofc. limiting max output. What is your recommemdation in regards to these settings? Should i in fact choose SMALL on the Perlistens as it states SMALL for rooms smaller than 40 sqm? And maybe even choose the C setting on the BW to get the most out of the sub and not overdoing it with DSP inside the amp? I use Dirac Bass Control for calibration. Thanks!
I very often use the large setting in the Perlistens. Gives more boost to the low end. It’s not the intended use of that setting but I like the way it sounds and performs.
The real a see is to try different settings and see what works best. I would probably avoid the thx setting since that impacts the output and limiters. Unless your goal is to ensure it can’t be pushed even close to its limits. Perlistens own limits are very conservative. But THX is extreme.
I really your videos and knowledge you share,
In your opinion with sealed speakers, how low do you want a sealed speaker to play ?
Well I always use subs. Making a sealed speaker have sufficient bass is tricky without subs and/or DSP.
@@PoesAcoustics I agree with sealed LCR And bass output,
That's why I am interested in your opinion on what you would consider a good f3 , understanding there will be subs
Mixing sealed and ported is like a walk in the park to experienced audiophiles. Even the new system from Trinnov with waveforming proves you can mix "everything". REL is closing in with SubStacking, but lacks experience .....
What would be the ideal material to plug the port? Is there a product out there specifically for that purpose?
A sock!
Urethane foam works well.
Another option is to use 30ppi reticulated foam. This won’t seal it. It will damp the port. Makes it sort of like an aperiodic vent. The effect is to lower the Q of the tuning and give a response shape that is more 3rd order. It can be great but has issues still with port chuffing if the port isn’t properly designed. I did this as a design approach for a while but continued to have problems with chuffing.
@@PoesAcoustics so ultimately an all sealed setup would be the way to go in your opinion? Or is ported towers ok to mix with sealed subs? Sorry if you mentioned it in the video already. Lol
So should all ported speakers have their ports plugged if using sealed subwoofer
It’s not quite that simple. What I was suggesting is that sealing the ports helps make it easier to integrate the subs. The port on a speaker and sub are typically unrelated. A speaker is often ported at frequencies like 40-50hz. Subs are often tuned to 20-25hz. Typically crossover points are 80hz.
Design goals are the key. If you for some reason want to listen to frequencies that you are inaudible below 35 Hertz, then everything you say makes sense. However, for my purposes mainly music, I don't need a door swinging 20 Hertz which I cannot hear, nor can I feel. I can hear and feel 45 Hertz much better than I can hear or feel 20Hz. 20Hz has been a specification chase by designers and consumers who do not understand that inference base is a myth and does nothing for you especially in music maybe in special effects but that's still debatable, far as I can tell. Since I started designing subwoofers back in the early 80s the design goal for me was simple, I wanted to remove the Doppler distortion from my main speakers and provide of punchy bass that you could feel in your chest. My latest designs for subwoofers do not use the big floppy drivers but use what most people would call a mid-bass with a large multi directional port design which has 0 chuffing noise. And for the driver's modest x-Max a low frequency cut off filter (picking filter) which protects the speaker. I couldn't be more pleased with the results, especially when I hear other systems what standard commercial subwoofers.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts here and in past videos about this topic. It led me to choose all sealed speakers and 4 24” high excursion sealed subs to avoid all the issues. My previous ported subs really frustrated me. It wouldn’t happen often in real content but when it did I couldn’t get it out of my head. Since I went all sealed I have plenty of output and haven’t heard any offensive noises.
Also I had a brief conversation with Geoffrey about his speakers and he was saying his ported speakers would cause less sub integration issues than sealed - I didn’t really believe it or understand why he was saying that though. His points as I recall were that a ported speaker would be EASIER to phase align with subs and the speakers wouldn’t excite room modes as much as a sealed speaker. He’s the expert, not me, but I am still skeptical.
Especially since HT speakers are generally crossed over at 80Hz, so I don't see why it would excite modes in the audio region below...
@@GurvanBHC7
So wouldn’t that cause phase cancellations at 80hz or around crossover point ? ( ie.ported speakers with sealed subs )
@@Nobodyanybody778 I think software like DIRAC solves these problems, but yes, it's possible. I'm obviously no expert, but in my experience and that of others on the Internet, sealed subwoofers with sealed speakers are an easy option to set up. I personally have 4 21' sealed subs with 3 3way active main speakers with FaitalPro drivers, as well as FaitalPro Coaxial 12' for the rest (7.1.4 atmos setup), and this setup was very easy to calibrate.
I have 2 hsu vtf2 mk5 and I don’t seem to have any chuffing, I get good output to 15-16 hz , is that possible or am I missing something?
Having used those they certainly chuff audibly when pushed. It could be that you aren’t pushing them to their limits or just don’t realize what chuffing sounds like.
@@andyv9365 everything has limitations. Avoid those limitations and you will be fine. Simple as that.
I like sealed subs but ported speakers.
I experienced five demo rooms at CEDIA this year, including the Grimani Systems room, the SVS room with two of their new PB17-Ultra subs, and the Perlisten room with 14 of the D215s subs. They all blew me away with bass loudness, but everything sounded boomy, not articulate. My modest system has a pair of Hsu 12" subs, and they sound more tuneful to my ears, not making all low frequencies sound like a rocket launch. I have 6 large rigid fiberglass absorbers that are 6" deep. I used REW to determine sub placement and DSP, but I'm not a pro.
All the CEDIA demo rooms were significantly louder than how I watch movies at home. Could my perception of boominess in CEDIA rooms be the product of really high SPL? Or noise pollution? Choice of demo content? Insufficient room tuning time? Or favoring loud bass for all instead of articulate bass for just a couple seats?
What can hobbyists like me learn from this? $THANKS
Thank you for supporting my channel. I'll be recording a video and answering your question shortly.
What if you got five sealed subs and one ported sub would that make a big difference?
Same integration challenges.
@@PoesAcoustics thanks
What does port chuffing and honking sound like?
Chuffing is audible air turbulence from poor port design causing the air at high speeds to have a hollow pulsing sound that isn't the same frequency or tone as the frequency that is being played. Honking is the port amplifying higher octaves of the first order frequency or resonances from inside the enclosure like when you speak through a paper towel tube. Hope this helps, this is the best way I could explain it.
@@jedpetersen3806 It helps in that you did explain it well, but without hearing it, I really can't tell. I've had ported subs until recently, and I really haven't noticed a difference. The RTJ 18s shake the room more and are more aggressive. Other than that, they're the same as my old ported SVS PC-2000 Pro and Polk HTS-12 (except this sub only goes down to about 30Hz at volume).
Port chuffing sounds like what the name implies. It’s an air noise. Chuffing. Not sure another way to describe it. Honking is a resonance that would remind you of a low frequency goose honk.
Port honking isn’t very common. It means the port is so large that first order resonance is near the usable range. I’ve only ever experienced it in extreme ported sub designs or subs I badly DIYed.
Ok now we want to know what subs you chose “not” to review! 🎉 😂
Hah the ones you never saw me review.
I tjink some people like the rumbly more distorted bass sound of ported subs. If you listen to incredibly clean non distorted bass without lingering bass notes the bass sounds comparatively lean and lifeless.
In actuality it is just what you are used to.
This could be.
Well setup sealed systems can still rumble just fine though. They just do so much more cleanly.