Porsche 997 Carrera II: How To Fix Bore Score Damage | Wheeler Dealers
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 มิ.ย. 2024
- Elvis walks you through the steps required to fix bore score damage inside of a damaged Porche engine.
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Really enjoying the new series with Elvis, knows his stuff and so laid back.
Really like Elvis. He's clearly an excellent mechanic with a good broad knowledge of mechanics, electrics and interiors. Great addition, and glad to see the program back.
I'm sure they actually have a team of mechanics on the backend that help.
I've heard that you need to use the scope from the bottom...not through the spark plug openings, because the scoring ALWAYS starts at the bottom. So if you don't see any bore scoring through the sparkplug openings, it doesn't necessarily mean there is no scoring in that cylinder.
This is the way.
Love this show. One of the only few shows left that actually teaches and doesnt just hire a bunch of "experts" to waffle on about nonsense.
Good to see Elvis back. He was great on the dream car series.
Hartech 👌🏾👍🏾👌🏾gota love these guys and their work
Love the new WD!!! It’s way more entertaining, insightful, Elvis is great and nice to have filming outside the garage! Also, nice to see other specialists getting a mention/involved - naive to think the lonely mechanic in the past did absolutely everything!
Elvis is great and agree nice to get other businesses involved. Suspect they didn't have to pay Hartech too much for this...
You get to see hardly anything being done, how you think this is better then the original i don't know.
@@swifty2844 that’s your opinion! It’s much more entertaining in my opinion. That’s the great thing about opinions!
I like this new guy, really knows his stuff.
F1 mechanic knows
He was Kimi’s front end mechanic at McLaren.
One quick thing in case you're bore-scoping your own Porsche. The scoring issue begins at the very bottom of the cylinder, below the top of the piston at BDC. You can scope the cylinder through the spark plug hole like Elvis did, and see nothing wrong on a cylinder which is in fact pretty severely scored underneath. Porsche mechanics recommend scoping from below, through the crankcase, to see that lower part of the cylinder. Of course, if it's knocking and has a sooty exhaust, then you can be pretty sure about it in advance.
What a shame that Porsche doesn't have engineers who can figure out these fixes before the engines are debuted......
looking forward to seeing the instalation.
Answer “give it to Hartech!”… thanks Elvis some good tips!
Love this guy, brilliant
Nice to see Barry in the video. I've enjoyed many of his contributions on Pistonheads on this very issue
That’s a bloke called Barry, that’s not the Barry you are thinking of!
At least us Subaru EJ owners got something in common with Porsche owners. #cylinder4
I thought subarus are solid
Excellent. Many years ago I took my Porsche to an engineering Porsche specialist company for some work to be done on it.While I was there one of the engineers showed me a 944 turbo with the head removed.The ceramic cylinder liners were badly scored.He told me it was due to sulfur in the petrol.
BMW and Jag had the same issues with their nikasil lined engines, and for what I understand, it was down to owners using cheap, supermarket fuel instead of the super stuff.
Boxster and Rotary engines are inferior to conventional engines. I mean, how many 2JZ's do you see, needing such a costly repair? Sure, some Porsche engines reach over 100,000 miles, but the question is, at what price in comparison to a conventional engine ... and the answer is usually, multiples of ...
@@utubecomment21 I refined "cheap supermarket fuel" for years it all went into the same huge tank that Esso, Shell and Rix and others bought.....this is an urban myth. Do you really think Shell refine petrol at one refinery then transport it hundreds of miles to the other end of the country???
So much for these well built german cars love this show have been watching show since it first started years a go
I had my 997s done in the States at Flat 6 Innovations. Its a 4.0 screamer now. Got the IMS Solution as well.
Nice, I have a 99 3.4. No scoring that I can tell but am thinking of taking it in and having it upgraded. How do you like it?
@@paulbellas8797 It’s well worth it to me. I like the extra torque and the mental peace of knowing the two most common problems have been taken care of. Just email Jake Raby and get in the queue. They are wonderful cars!
How much HP does the 4.0L produce?
AK , how about an update for horsepower on the beast at 4L
If I recall the rear wheels were in the 350s. It’s a tick better than a 4 second car. Besides being a 4 liter Raby did a few other small tweaks. It’s not his track engine version though. I had a C4 prior to this one and while probably not as quick as my C2S it may actually have been better on a track because the handling was superior. This 4.0 engine is outstanding. I can’t recall what I paid, maybe $30k, but it was absolutely worth it.
Step 1 - make friends with a Porsche engine specialist, or get yourself on a popular TV show where you can pretend to be friends.
Step 2 - go to their workshop and use all of their expensive equipment, free of charge.
Step 3 - make it sound like you can do this job yourself for a fraction of the cost of what the real specialist will charge you.
There is no steps to this ring anny engineer and they will tell you it ain’t expensive to fit new liners and bore and hone the case halves at all!
If your doing all the work yourself it is cheap indeed even I know that as I got myself a 911 2S and ringing around to have new liners put it and honed and bored the normal charge is about £1300 all in to have it all done.
You guys are thinking it’s that price to have a full engine rebuild with someone else doing it for you hell no! Learn to turn a wrench yourself or suffer the expensive costs of labour which is bassically setting money on fire as you are paying someone to be your slave.
You seen the K997 project in TH-cam?
Best solution.
A thing I picked up on was the blackening of the exhaust tips.
That m97 looks like it's seen a little salt.
is in good hands
Elvis in the building y'all
Sooooo is there a part two of this video???
So sleeving the block.
Made in Germany, refined in England.
Elvis as a mechanic you are probably very very good. However as a machinist you are trying to fool us. 👍👍👍😁🌹
I can't find an answer to this question anywhere. When they install new cylinders, how do they seal the water jacket to prevent coolant from entering the crankcase?
"Send it off to the expert". I'm starting to get blackening around the tailpipes on an early 996, but am hoping it's more because the AOS is past it's best. Will pop a camera down when the headers are removed and I do the coil packs and plugs. Until then, it sounds fine and pulls well, so not in a rush to confirm.
I've always heard white smoke for AOS, as opposed to black
@@austingonzalez1148 It's not emitting black smoke, only a tiny white puff at start up, but the tips are blackening a bit. Could also be that I've changed to premium fuel with more cleaning additives. I know the AOS is badly leaking though. It's on my list when the gearbox comes out. The right hand pipe is more sooty, which should be left, AOS side. The oil and filter were clean at the last service and being an early 3.4L, it shouldn't be prime target for bore score.
@@marcuspd477 it's not a prime target for bore scoring, but my mate's M3 has bore scoring, it can happen to any car under the right circumstances. For some reason people seem to think it can only ever happen to 997s!
The M3 issue is the garbage Nikasil BMW used. Its a well known issue.
@@seanbailey8545 and yet where are all the "experts" on the Internet claiming M3 engines are BOUND to fail, like everyone does for 997s?
So if I have my own TV show and access to a machine shop that will let me do the work this is no issue, got it.
Where is/are the follow up episodes???
Only on discovery+ in the uk
Part 2???
Why didn't they bore it and fit oversize pistons?
Does the fault start with the piston coating failing then scoring the bore
My 996 Carrera has done 140k miles but I will have to face that problem eventually.
Highly unlikely since you’ve done that many miles, 3.4 and 3.8 are much better than the 3.6
If it's not shown itself by now, your probably good.
Cool looking but cheap engine cylinders for a costly car!
If one cylinder has bore score the rest will follow. The only assurance is a full rebuild
Where’s Part 2?
When does the show air I can't find it and new season started
Discovery channel
Discovery 9pm Mondays... then Elvis has his TH-cam livestream at 10pm (search F1 Elvis / Mark Priestley)
so the new cylinder is effectively a cylinder sleeve?
I had 3 changed on mine they call them liners in the UK
does bore scoring occur on MA1 engines especially 2.9 from cayman?
No it isn't a problem for the 2.9's
The air cooled 911's could be rejugded 3.6 to 3.8
What about a 3.8 to 4 L , even better
First Ed then Ant, now this dude.. who’s next
3 mechanics in 18 years. It bad going.
A beatuiful porche carrera
This was a great episode and I really enjoy Elvis although nobody will every top Edd.. But watching this episode I cannot help but imagine a world where Porsche engineers just did things properly to begin with.. So much money for a car that could have a problem like this.. Good grief😢
Yes I can see my dealership do this🙃
Wish I could’ve sent my m97 to the UK to have it fixed. The LN guys are over double the price in the US
Is that LN Engineering who make their own ims bearing?..
They are always cheap here… I just bought a 2006 911 2S fully loaded with every option bore scored for £12,000 and it’s about £1300 to have new iron liners and honed and bored here when I get the engine out. It’s not about what you know it’s who you know that matters. But bear in mind I will be £8k all in on the rebuild by the end and that’s overhauling not just the engine that’s coolant pipes , all control arms every single thing.
@@mikefranky yep
@@BMWDoctor Im about 20k USD in for new nikasil liners and parts for overhaul. That includes a fair number of after market upgrades as well though. All labor myself except the liner replacement.
@@robotlegs I feel your pain everything in America for German cars is expensive trust me I know as I have a wide audience for the USA for bmw. I don’t get why you guys get ripped off over there for German parts and what’s worse is they sell you a lot of fake parts Chinese parts. Here everything is cheap to overhaul German cars that’s why I always said to everyone in the USA if I lived in America I would drive a Ford F150 as I wouldn’t pay the ridiculous prices for the cars or the parts over there. Even shops and garages rip you wide open for all they can get when you own any German car and what’s worse is they can’t even do a proper job I have a channel with thousands of American people with bmw who are in deep crap because shops can’t even repair them or charged them $$$$$ for no repair even dealers over there is a joke. All the car repair industry over there needs to be monitored and shouldn’t be allowed to do what they do that’s why even my friend he has a Porsche channel over there and sends me all his stuff to be repaired over here as nobody will do it that cheap there. He bought a 997 for $16,000 and he sent me his case halves to have them done here and sold the car for $42,000 😅 so me and him just buy them cheap over in the USA repair them cheap and sell them on easy money in the USA.
Unlike L.A now their back in Blighty working on cars full of rust! Amazing how fast they rot over there!
Anyone remember the 4 cyl Cosworth engines GM put in the Vega? An aluminum block with silicon treated bores--no liner. You can guess what happened.
I believe Mercedes used similar open deck, aluminum design in their SEL450.
The only thing Cosworth was the cylinder head. All Vegas had the aluminum block and silicon bores.
@@nickpappas4133 The displacement was different so, the Cosworth may have used a different crankshaft and rods. Different pistons too. I believe you are correct on the block. Not even iron liners and those would have made a big difference.
My Cayman S has the exact same problem on one cylinder. Looks like it will be an expensive fix!
Not too bad if it's only one cylinder £600.
@@seanbailey8545
On top of the labour to drop and disassemble an engine then do the reverse at around £100/hour
@@ro63rto I can do that myself, sadly the machining I can't.
@@ro63rtodo it yourself and no labour this is why all you guys find them expensive to repair and run. Porsche is for enthusiasts who are willing to do the work themselves you can’t expect to get it cheap and then pay someone to do the work for you don’t work like that. Do it yourself you will come out at least £7300 all in to rebuild it which isn’t much
Question. What is the fix if you only have one cylinder scored? My car was diagnosed with scoring on cylinder 6, and the local shop wants to sell me a $24k motor….
My question, too.
Mine were only worn on 4 5 6..so only had them 3 Changed...that was 5 years ago still going strong...
Does the Boxer suffer from the same problem?
Yes, all 911, Boxster and caymans between 98-08.
Do some research. Bore scoring can happen to any engine in any car, so strictly speaking no 911 (or any other car) of any age is immune.
The M97 3.8 litre however is the engine that is extremely prone to it, so if you were looking to buy a 997 Carrera S you should look for one with a Hartech rebuilt engine.
Any other Porsche is not really any more prone than anything else. Of course, because people go looking for it, they do find it, but if they checked every car it would be found much more frequently elsewhere too.
This is what worries me about these cars. IMS etc i don't mind sorting. But the risk of these cars developing this, doesn't reflect in the price.
I wish I could buy one of there cars.
Why would you want to buy a money pit?
Having watched the show the costing of the rebuild is confusing me
£2500 + vat for the liners
But then later Mike states new pistons and rings 🤷
And a new crank, Bill more like 8k
A Hartech rebuild needs a budget of around £10K, but adds to the value, just not by that much. If you're planning on keeping one though, you'll never have to worry about the engine again.
2500 to just install the cyl liners. They listed 3500 for all the work done on the engine, which was still very cheap (around $5K) for a rebuild. Of course Elvis' time was 'free'.
I’ve been quoted a rough price of £12.5K for a full rebuild of 6 cylinders. But that is going via an independent specialist. I guess if you take the car direct to Hartech it will be a bit cheaper
@@chrispark9343 Blimey Chris😱…I dread this with my 06 S…….53k miles….the engine makes such a racket on start up until it settles down anyway, I wouldn’t be able to tell the difference. If you go ahead with the outlay, you can drive it like new afterwards, knowing you can sell it in future without being beaten down in price.
Coatings will wear out over time.
.... even quicker with the use of cheap, supermarket fuel, as BMW and Jag owners found out.
Why can't the block be rebored with new oversized pistons ?
Part of the problem is the material that the original liners are made of. So a rebore won't solve that problem
The cyl MUST be lined with a material that promotes smooth movement between the cyl and piston. So you can't just bore it out and be done, you have to coat it with an addl material. The material from Porsche is environmentally friendly and mass production capable, but not very durable. The material used by Hartech and L&N is put on with a plating process (like chrome plating). The Hartech tech said Porsche uses this material on GT3, turbo, and the air cooled engines, which are or were all hand built, not robot / machine assembed. Porsche can get away with using an environmentally unfriendly process on these low production engines, but not on the mass produced ones.
@@terrylessmann2274 After boring the cylinder the surface must be treated in such a way as to remove metal and expose the hard silicon particles. Look at LN Engineering's explanation.
@@truebluemiata I have a set of their sleeves in my CSS. They remove the the old cyl, then put their sleeves into the block. But before putting the sleeves in, they coat the sleeve in the nikasil bath. Look quickly at 2:07 in this video.
th-cam.com/video/ebxkhGTyL9w/w-d-xo.html
This is very rare. It's normally the 3.8 litre engine that suffers bore scoring, not the 3.6. Basically all the reasons that Barry at Hartech has identified for bore scoring happening in these engines principally apply to the 3.8 engine. I wonder how well this car has been maintained in the past.
Many cars suffer from bore scoring, not just 997s, and I think whatever causes it in other cars is the reason for this problem, probably lack of maintenance.
This is backed up by the fact that cylinder 1 was also scored. The typical 3.8 scoring is 4/5/6.
You are correct, BS is more likely in the S version engines but I don't think this is a maint issue. Short trips and getting on it (>3K rpm) when cold are potential threats for BS.
@@terrylessmann2274 yes, although I would include careful useage as being part of good maintenance.
Got it on my 2008 3.4 Cayman S
And my car has full service history from new. No lack of maintenance. Just 26000 miles!
@@chrispark9343I said rare, not unique, as the other guy said, there are other causes, revving when cold, short trips etc you've demonstrated exactly why low mileage can often be a really bad thing, despite what everyone thinks.
997.2?
Elvis should be wearing ear protection
I sure hope they had a qualified machinist set up the machine.
If you watch the whole episode they try and retro look it which had promise (decals, duck tail) but ruined imo with with bright gold Fuchs.... Still they fixed up an honest car which isn't bad news, tho 26k quite a lot for a base Carrera tip ..
Prices for 996s and 997s are going crazy.
Leave it alone, no different from all other 911 discussions
he's too good looking to be a mechanic...surely 🤔😁
Shame Wheeler dealers shoe IMS issues or bore scoring on the newer 997\987 engines when the issues are not as common as you think! my later 08 987 cayman blew both head gaskets and IMS and bores where perfect. These issues where only on the early 997\987 cars really ...
He said only 4% of the cars have it. So yeah there is a 96% change it won't affect your car.
The 2008 engines had a revised IMS (2005+ actually) that has minimal failure rate.
Agreed, any engine can suffer bore scoring. People go looking for it in 997s so they often find it. I reckon if every car was checked in the same way it would be found very frequently elsewhere too.
@@DuBstep115 i d like to know how someone can said only 4% when it's a bad engineering design ?? He don't know.
I think most of these engines suffer with it. And I mean most of them. The Porsche garage isn’t gonna tell everyone how common it is. A steady flow of £10k rebuild work is all good. I’ve got one. I spent a LOT of money on it to get it right. I love these cars so I don’t care but be warned you need to love them to own them or you’ll feel the hard deep pain in my opinion
Porsche have been making the 911 since 1964 it should be polished perfection by now. Why does bore scoring even exist!!!!
Not good enough is it. I have one of these and this problem definitely has damaged my trust in the brand
omg look at that corrision haha
I still prefer Edd and Ant, but Elvis is starting to grow on me.
Elvis is so much better
like a melonoma
@@barrydavies998 well, you should know.
Why would porsche let this happen terrible, I’ve had 5 of them
I’ve got one and had it rebuilt it’s made me lose trust in the entire brand
Just install a forged ej207 in that car
Edd , Ant and Elvis have been incredible mechanics for wheeler dealers.. the common problem has been Mike Brewer.. he’s not a nice person
Who would anyway only do one bank?
What happened to Edd's replacement?
He decided to stay in America when the show returned to the UK.
Oh OK thanks!
Never had this problem in alloy Skoda engines. It's skimping on engineering isn't it.
What's this got to do with anything
BTEC ED CHINA
$15,000 for a Porsche 997 that isn't wrecked??? That seems impossibly low priced. I've never seen them that low in the USA, with or without bore scoring.
They are always cheap here… I just bought a 2006 911 2S fully loaded with every option bore scored for £12,000 and it’s about £1300 to have new iron liners and honed and bored here when I get the engine out. It’s not about what you know it’s who you know that matters. But bear in mind I will be £8k all in on the rebuild by the end and that’s overhauling not just the engine that’s coolant pipes , all control arms every single thing.
Seems that it’s taken the British to show Porsche how to build engines.
The victors of the war, educate the losers. Why is Land Rover not good
Love Porsche but they really aren't reliable
So we need to break down the engine, shows one screw being removed, then suddenly we are at the rebuild place. Brilliant...lost you way completely wheeler dealers. Anyone who wants an actual in-depth programme regarding car restoration and repair should check out Edd's workshop diaries. What made the original wheeler dealers great to watch.
You're so right, what Edd has done with Workshop Diaries is go back to doing what made many of us love about WD in the first place, not all this glossing over the detail for the benefit of people who know FA about cars or how the jobs are done. Elvis is a good guy but he's fallen foul by taking the cash versus exerting control over Mr Brewer
These are not full episodes so take into the count that they probably have cut video down a lot.
German Engineering, designed specifically to separate you from your money as efficiently as possible
jee wiz mike goes through more mechanics than michael jacksons nose and metallicas bass players. so far porsche has bad ims bearings and now this bore score issue yikes.
That's mad cheap for a 997
Покрасили диски в золотистый цвет и эмблемы позакрашивали😪!
4% you say? It's more like 10% and higher!
Depends on the year, the earlier 997/987 are higher risk than later ones.
@@seanbailey8545 ok but why the earlier than the later ? ....... You really don't know and you can't explain it, it's an engineering failure that's all. it's a bad poor engine cooling, and so much reasons
@@grasierolivier8528 The earlier ones had a more robust IMS bearing, the later one Porsche skimped on costs. It was a whole class action lawsuit in the US.
@@seanbailey8545 ok for the ims topic but for scratched, cracked and out of round cylinders, no one knows how many engines will break, but bad design is known. No class action on this case ?
@@seanbailey8545 sorry i didn t speak about the IMS but the score damage.
This car hasn't had a mot since 2015. Still on September 2022, so was the sale faked?
get a GTR....
Aaaannd cue all 996/7 engine issue ‘experts’ most of whom don’t own one of these cars, but love to repeat what they’ve heard, so they can sound like they have sage-like knowledge - and spread exaggerated doom 🙄
We need China back at Wheeler Dealer
I bought a rebuild off nein lives parts on eBay it already scored cylinders at 1700 miles . Stay away from these crooks
Again, in an hour long show this is pretty much the total mechanical work you get. The only thing most of us watch for! Elvis is being wasted.
Ahh ha ha Bicester heritage bods get paid to do the strip off camera ... Any fool can remove sparkplugs and shove a camera down the bores.... O and heritage geezers diagnosed this problem too ... Priestly hasn't got a clue... He is acting... very poorly but acting all the same
@@barrydavies998 what evidence do you have to back this up? He clearly has more of a clue than you, just some tosser sitting at home criticising other people's work. I am fairly certain that no one is ringing you up to offer you a job doing what he is doing.
This show is a shell of its former self
@@swifty2844 Again, that is just your personal view of it. I think that the new series has a lot in common with the original one. They have done a full restoration, a couple of light recommissions and some basic repairs and improvements. If you watch Edds latest episode, we learn that, even though Edd is depicted doing the work, it was actually him and his friend Paul who did the cars. Also I got the impression that it was Paul doing the most of the work, but that was simply how it appeared to be to me, not necessarily how it was. I know that there is also a strong possibility that Elvis has an equally talented assistant, but for me, it certainly shows Edd in a different light. But either way, it was ultimately about producing a television program and I enjoyed the originals and I am equally enjoying these. Personal preference, nothing more, nothing less.
@@calibrazxr750 my point relates to the tiny amount of workshop time we get to see on these new episodes. No matter who is doing it. I already knew Paul did most of the work years ago but atleast the old seasons used to show alot more of the work being done. Now it's like "the next job is to change the radiator" next scene radiator is out on the bench 🤣 it's like wow, what a mess.
How to pronounce Porsche th-cam.com/video/Im2eYuGdmfY/w-d-xo.html
Terrible era for Porsche.
It really pains me as a Porsche 997 fan, because the cars look great and they were still fairly small compared to the GT cars that look like Hotwheels with the car-to-wheel proportions Porsche makes today.
hahaha, like this guy know how to bore a 911 engine, yeah just get number 86 mate your be fine, and as if the bloody company would let you use there machines, this guy is living in dreamland, good luck then. WTF!
Get rid of Mike
Pretty car; not so reliable
Ahhhhh ha ha ha ha ha ha ..... the heritage boys from next door just out of shot.... Do these clowns think we are stupid? Ahhhh ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Bazhaaa ha ha
What the whole is this guy
That question makes no sense.
Please bring Ed back. This guy is boring as hell.
Firstly, no one should do something, simply because you want it to happen and secondly, whether someone is "boring as hell", is purely subjective. I find him engaging and knowledgeable, but these days, I also find many of Edds new videos to be tedious and uninformative or irrelevant. But that is just my personal opinion, which is why I don't write it as a statement, unlike you.
So the fix is to re sleeve the engine, got it