How to fix bore scoring in your Porsche's M96/M97 engine | 4 of 4
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You may have heard of cylinder bore scoring as it relates to the Porsche 911, Boxster, or Cayman built for the 1999-2008 model years, but chances are you don't know the full story. In this final of four videos, we discuss your options to fix bore scoring in your M96/M97 engine if you can't live with it anymore, or it's gotten to the point where it needs to be fixed. Unfortunately, there is no cheap option here, but you do have a couple options if you want to do it right. In addition to the right ways, we also cover several examples of the wrong way to fix bore scoring in these engines and how these engines end up failing again.
Other videos in this series:
Part 1: What bore scoring is & why it can happen to 1999-08 Porsche 911s, Boxsters, & Caymans: • What bore scoring is &...
Part 2: Block and cylinder surface geometries, and the contributing factors to bore scoring: • Block & bore surface g...
Part 3: How to prevent or slow the progression of bore scoring in your Porsche: • How to prevent or slow...
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30k is a lot of money though ! At that point, I might as well buy a turbo 😂 Thanks for the great info, much appreciated.
LOL. Mezger engines are stout, but they are not without their own issues, especially when you put turbos on them. $30K for a properly rebuilt, larger displacement flat six, that makes beautiful music, is a steal.
@@1PITIFULDUDE Adding 50HP+ without even considering a tune, exhaust, etc. on these cars is pretty wild considering the performance of even new Porsches. And that's just 30k if you're including all those little bits, which may have already been replaced by the time the engine needs a rebuild anyhow. The way I look at it, if you get one that doesn't have any scoring yet, and you do all the proper preventative measures, you are going to be driving an already amazing car for a while before you have to get an upgrade. That upgrade is a lot cheaper than just buying a new car, and it's going to be better performance than getting another 987. It's really just about being smart about finding the right car to start with and making it last as long as possible so that you can save for the big upgrade.
Great series!! I’ve been watching as many videos as I can and been reading forums posts for years about this topic and still learned a ton. Glad it’s all in one place to reference for everyone. I really appreciate what Charles, Lake and the like have done for the community. When my time come, hopefully this route is an option for me.
Charles , Lake and Vu,
Thanks again for another great in-depth series....On "Why" "How" and What..!
Thank you Charles, Lake, Mark and Vu, the series was VERY informative!
Glad it was helpful!
Great great video saga... Great explications!
I'm clear now that the car I just bought last friday is affected. 1st registration on July 1999 in Spain 996 C4 manual with 82k miles, it's already running rough and super rich due to a vacuum leak so the autodestruction process began. who knows when it started to run rough before my buy.
Unfortunately after watching these videos I decided to sell it or bring it back to the last owner as I can't live with such a worry about having a ticking bomb behind me. My dream of 25 years ago has turned out to be my nightmare.
Thanks PCA for having this excellent explication about M96 and m97 engines!
Very helpful indeed.With this great info supplied one can now shop around with more caution.Personally I would go for the 997 Gen II now.
If considering a 987.2 or 997.2, please do be sure to include bore scoping and even possibly used oil analysis on these engines as well as they too can suffer from cylinder bore scoring, however it's certainly a lesser issue with these later models. By no means should one discount the Gen 1 cars as they are amazing and with a thorough PPI and proper maintenance, they can be just as reliable.
Absolutely great video series. Good to give guidance on what to do, look out for, and how to handle if it happens. There's a very small part of me that, upon "Post Purchase Inspection" is kind of hoping to find it so I can rebuild my 07 Targa4S to a 4.0! I'll start the fund now...
Glad you enjoyed the series.
Well done, great series, would love to hear more on 987 Cayman diffs.
Thank you!
Another really outstanding video. Thanks so much. My 996 is running beautifully, and luckily, I've been using top tier fuel. It's also good to know what the cost of a new better motor might be. Really great!!
Thanks for watching!
I watched all four parts and learned so much, thanks for this great educative series.
Glad it was helpful!
Test on Thursday, no open book
Great series!
Great series - thanks!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Well done! Thanks for the information!
Glad it was helpful!
You make so much great content, thanks for sharing with the rest of the world. :-)
Glad you enjoy it!
Excellent content. Shame that such a reputable car company can't produce a durable engine...
They can make a durable engine, but Porsche sure did drop the ball on these M96/7 engines. An apology from them sure would be nice, wouldn't it!
@@aboyandhisdog I'm from Europe BTW and German cars are losing their reputation here. More and more people are turning to Japanese and Korean brands for reliability.
‘Can’t produce a durable engine’ ? - these engines are all at least 15 years old, factor in several owners all of which will drive the car in the upper limits of the rev range and loads, and perhaps not maintain and service it as it should be - guess what? Some of them fail! After this length of time, durability does not come into it. It never came with a ‘no matter what’ lifetime guarantee 🤦♂️
@@jackcarter66 the larger engines had a design flaw so it can’t be explained away with bad ownership
@@MercSLRFan B.S. no engine is perfect - you can’t start declaring ’flaws’ after all these years. Now they are affordable people who are used to maintaining Fords etc expect them to behave impeccably, without fault or expense at 15+ years old. Never going to happen.
I am planning to buy myself a clean low mileage Cayman as a retirement gift in a couple of years. These kinds of tech oriented videos are very helpful for the Porsche newbee. Thanks much.
Buy a 987.2 they do not bore score
@@retro-wreck
*997.2
Enjoy very much watching an educational series on these M96/97 engines! I purchased a 996.2 base Carrera 2 years ago, and the dealer was reluctant to allow a PPI. The car was in such good condition I decided to roll the dice. Now with 75K miles I`m trying to decide if I should have an IMS installed at the same time an AOS, injectors. possibly a timing chain or 2 and tensioners after finding a bronze colored piece of plastic in the oil. I`ve had 1 oil analysis performed with results of caution(silicon@ 25 ppm). Once again I find myself rolling the dice thinking it better to rebuild to a 4.0. Call me insane cause I think I`ll still love this car!!
Thank you for sharing. All that matters is that you will still love and enjoy it.
Lots of great info…
Great job PCA on this series. One 'little' part of me though thinks that these guys just want to scare people into generating business for themselves. I have a 987 Cayman (68k miles) which I maintain to factor service intervals and drive. Previous comment on episode 3 said halfing factory intervals, really!
Correct. Doing oil changes every 6 months or 5,000 miles is a sound recommendation backed up by used oil analysis. If you drive the car only part of the year and store the car in the winter, you can get away with one oil change, but be sure to do that before you store the car.
@@lnengineeringllc why change the oil before the car is stored instead of before you start it up in spring?
@@jasonfreeman509 used motor oil becomes acidic over time. Why leave it in if you're just going to swap it out in the summer?
Hello, Thank you for putting together the series. I hoped to hear a couple of additional comments: 1) You didn't mention a low temperature thermostat. 2) Every 997 seems to have a little black on the tailpipes especially around the inside edge. Is there any way to say how much is too much? I have a 2006 997.1 Carrera S, 60K miles. Mechanic uses liqui moly. Thank you again.
Just to clarify, if your mechanic is using Liqui-Moly A40 oil without their Ceratec or MoS2 additive, you still are using an oil with low levels of moly, and you should consider supplementation or use of an oil with higher levels of moly.
With regards to a low temperature thermostat, one should indeed be fitted on 97-08 models when replacing the water pump, which should be done every 4-6 years or 50-60k miles.
And for the tailpipes, some sootiness is acceptable, but it is when one is significantly worse than the other that you should start looking into things.
Shout Out to Jake. I sure love and enjoy my 996.
There needs to be more acceptance in the Porsche community for motor swap with more reliable motors. Proud owner of a Cayenne with a VW 3.2l motor. No bore score and turbo ready!
So you're drastically raising the center of gravity of the car and removing one of the most distinctive features of the car. That's fine, but there's good reason why people buy/keep old Porsches.
@roots4x air cooled have no problems. Keep classic cars classic. Now argue how the 500lb watercooled version has a lower center of gravity from an aluminum v8 tipping the scales even at the same weight. There are always ways to tune a slightly different roll center. Since it's going to be just a few pounds, use a Braille battery. As for cayannes that have bore score issues as well, it's fair game. Make that 5000lb pig fun!
@@lilmangofast It's not about total weight, it's about center of gravity. Again, not disrespect to your car. It's always awesome to do what you can with what you have. But repairing a proper flat 6 over replacing it with a VR6 makes a difference. Unless you mounted your VR6 sideways, the heavy heads are shifting weight balance way up.
Is there a list of recommended shops for rebuilds, etc. that PCA can point us to?
Great question! Would be interested in knowing of shops in Atlantic / eastern Canada
very informative.
Glad you think so!
@@PorscheClubofAmerica i wish i could take the chance to buy one. 10-15k is a lot. Porsche is rich people’s car. Thats for sure.
I have never had a chance to drive one. Yet cant afford one. Sad.
Been following those guys for a while there’s also a series there , big money but hey it’s the best and all of us Porsche guys know it
On a unrelated issue does anyone know if the Cayman with the direct fuel injection system having problems with build up around the valves and combustion chamber?
Great series
Makes me not want to buy a 996 or 997 anymore
So how much does it cost to have engine done by LN or Flat six?
Whats the name of your garage and where is it located?
Great info along the series!
The engine that came in the cayman 987.1 3.4L can be stroke to 3.8 or 4.0?
As part of the Nickies sleeving process, we increase the bore size from 96mm to 101mm which results in 3.8 liters of displacement.
@@lnengineeringllc and how many HP it males?
@@hugoTets Customers who have done this have reported gains of 50 HP with greatly improved torque throughout the RPM band, which quite honestly, makes the biggest difference.
worried more about main bearings with mismatched crack halves. oil seals should be fine.
Larger bores more suspect to cylinder scoring?
my opinion
I assume the 3.4 from Cayman S can also be bored to 4.0, right ?
I'm thinking 3.8
Just purchased a 2005 Boxster S with a manual gearbox.
What can I do to avoid bore scoring?
1. Buy high-quality gasoline
2. Avoid excessive idling
3. Do not rev the engine hard until it is at operating temperature
4. Using products formulated to clean fuel injectors
5. Replace oil often (6 mi, 5000 mi?)
6. Using diagnostics to check for early signs
Anything else?
Low temp thermostat
What could they bore a 3.2 liter from an 02 Boxster 986 to? Inquiring minds want to know 🙂
We've been taking 3.2 Boxster S engines out to 3.8 liters for over 15 years. Having owned a 99 Boxster with a 3.8, I can tell you it is a hoot to drive (and track).
What's the most displacement you increase a 3.4?
We've seen up to 4.1 liters.
Which oil ; should I used for for my 997.1 $S Targa
We recommend using Driven DT40. It has high levels of moly and increased ZDDP levels over an A40 spec oil. Be sure to change your oil every 6k miles or 5,000 miles, whichever comes first.
I just bought my first porsche yesterday and just decided to sell ot. Can't drive a car with such a ticking bomb behind...too way many things to worry about
These cars are old now, between the 996/997 I feel they should have a good idea on how many are affected based on how many were built! Honestly it sounds like all of them! Surely this isn’t the case? I have a 05 with 79k now And it has been well maintained! My mechanic said in his 26 yers he has seen I bore scoring issues on a 996 and 3 IMS . So man I don’t know what is going on! It makes it hard to enjoy my car. I may sell it for a 09/12 cayman s.
There is no need to run and sell off your car. The 09 and later engines can also suffer from cylinder bore scoring, so we recommend scoping the cylinders, doing used oil analysis, and then switching to an oil like Driven DT40. It's critical that you make sure all the preventative maintenance steps laid our are followed so that you can drive with peace of mind that you're doing everything possible to protect your engine.
@@charlesnavarro586 Thank you for the feed back. I just made Appt for a bore scope.Hopefully all is good.But like you said their is things we can do to maintain the motor from getting worse..
I've always loved PORSCHE and always will..but i just cant afford them knowing the car will eventually bore score. Just in the design of the engine. Every time i would drive it feel afraid when it might start to show signs..
you can find Caymen S 2006 up for less than 20k.. low millage around 50k.. why??? watch the video.. they all have some level of scored cyl issue.
You asked the question what can you get for $30k? Well considering a 996 can be bought for less than $10k, spending $15-20k on an engine rebuild simply does not make financial sense, so unless you are particularly attached, get a different car or buy a good used engine for $4k and have someone fit it with a new clutch and bearings for $5 - 6k all in.
Damn, $25-30k for an added 50hp, why not just put in an LS swap using Renegade mounts for half that? And get way more than 50.
Did you hear what Charles said at 15:58? He had a dozen blocks come in LAST WEEK. Clearly, bore scoring is not an isolated issue for Porsche engines of this era.
A dozen 20+ year old engines….. how long do people expect their performance engines to last
I'd imagine it's more than just bore score issues. Probably every issue under the sun.
@@frederickcook87 no matter what the age or mileage, why would anyone think bore scoring is the norm. I have had an engine with an aluminum block with over 200,000 miles that has never been opened. Of course it is a Honda.
@@a.c.e.7568 nobody said it is or should be the norm but to expect a performance engine to go 20 plus years with no issues is just dumb…
@@frederickcook87It is not like these cars with bore scoring are on the track all day long, so they are hardly stressed.
this has to be a legitimate design defect, why isn't there some sort of class action or warranty on these?
Probably because no matter how well designed they are, there will always be some driver who either does not maintain their vehicle or abuses his engine.
I watched all 4 of these videos and came away thinking that one company is killing it out of all this propaganda. Highly stressed engines like the Porsche engine will break and need repair, most engines do. What are the symptoms of bore score? From what I can glean it is high oil consumption and a sooty tail pipe. Advanced bore score may have a clattering engine, but as mentioned it could take 40k mikes to go from one symptom to the other, so why do folk spend $$$$ on the mere sight of scored bores, and why do they go full hog in rebuilding this engine when only 1 or 2 cylinders have an an issue? What I was hearing is that it is they want to bore the engine out for 50 whp. Expensive. I have one of these cars with high mileage - if it starts showing signs of borescope, I’ll add the oil because I only drive the thing 2k miles a year and the cost of oil is cheaper than a rebuild. Only if it starts clattering or smoking excessively will I bore score the thing and try and fix it. But I will only fix what is wrong with it - if 2 cylinders are scored I’ll fix the 2. I will absolutely not get into the slippery slope of “while the engine is out, you might as well…” because that’s when costs start to escalate. Flat 6 innovation, LN engineering and Hartech in the UK are making a killing out of this bore score nonsense and the consumer is losing out. Porsche ought to do something but they won’t especially after the IMS court action, so they leave it to others to deal with and concentrate elsewhere. If all of this was really consumer centric, the costs would be coming down and engineering firms would be finding ways to make it cheaper for the consumer, but the costs are going up and up which indicates to me that it is more about making money than truly helping the consumer out. I could be wrong of course and I often am, and these vids have definitely helped me understand more about bore score. Thanks!
You can get a factory short block for under 10k. Swap the heads over, and accessories. Your out the door price will be 14-16k tops. This is what many ppl do. I've been servicing these cars 21 years now here in sunny South Florida. Aka Porsche capital. I've done more short blocks than I can remember. Ain't nobody spending 30k on a dinosaur 996.
I'm not discrediting these guys knowledge, nor effort, but in the real world it's a minutiae of the owner base that will spend that kind of money on a dinosaur. Most will just upgrade to a newer model.
"While you're in there.................. get a truckload of money from your bank. .
Engineering at is finest than will force you to buy a new car every 100k
You can also blame governments with new rules of environmental ideology that destroys engines. Especially on diesels.
So $15k for engine is very high! The 996 is not that valuable and saying that you CAN buy a later model which is better in every way also. This cannot cost that much for that machine work and some new jugs!!! Dont know how people that do that can justify this huge cost?? I know R&D did cost,but to sell more of these engines price need to be much lower!
OK, after watching all 4 parts, the question I now have is why does this only happen to Porsches that I know of. Now the percentage this happens to is obviously high enough to bring it to the attention of Porsche owners. My other non-Porsche daily driver has an aluminum block and I know I will get 200,000-plus miles out of it without problems. Even my old 1999 Honda CR-V with its aluminum block, now in the hands of a Porsche 997 owner, has over 200,000 miles on it and the engine have never been opened. Time to either fire some Porsche engineers or their bean counters.
BMW V8’s same problem
@@lanceboyle4255 I remember the M5s from the early to mid 90s that had cylinder issues due to the high sulphur content in the gas. That is what I heard.
We do get calls for other European makes with Alusil engine blocks that have scored, however you don't often see these failures discussed as Porsche owners are much more devoted to the brand and tend to be more active in clubs and forums where these issues are discussed. So yes, this is more than just a Porsche problem, however the Lokasil block process in the M96 and M97 engine is unique to 97-08 Porsche Boxster, Cayman, and 911 models and was never used by any other manufacturer.
It’s cos it’s horizontally opposed. Compared to the other engines you mentioned that are not.
Best part about fixing is upgrading. Money is for spending.
well said.
Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?
I’m scared
Don't be. Being scared doesn't change anything. If you own one, just drive, maintain and enjoy.
My 356’s never suffered from bore scoring. What the hell happened at Porsche? They earned a sterling reputation for reliability back in the day. Now they are about as reliable as a Chevy Vega motor, but cost $30,000 more to rebuild. And of course the new motor will still suffer from bore scoring.. Porsche lost me a long time ago. Now just a toy for the rich.
Did you even watch the video? The whole point in rebuilding the engine correctly as shown is so that it doesn’t have the scoring issue any longer.
So, here we are. Seems that Ln and Raby -who make most of their money from eith ims or bore scoring are at it again. Like the kill article in Panorama -that trashed 996's and Boxters. Lets see - More or less - how specific -how about percentages?? No - ok how about maybe and kind of -percentages?? If you look at Europe anywhere in Europe bore scoring is less than 2%. And in very specific cases. Any engine with 170,000 miles will have wear - usually rings and piston and valves. What do you expect? The IMS thing was always less than 10% and you tink most if not all of the 170,000 total in U.S. are still running - without IMS replacement. But they want it to be a maintanence item - of course - they make there money that way. Bore scoring - same deal. Percentages backed by proof. And don't get started on the "moly" reoutine. They can't even get the side decal on the 911 on straight.
Love the hype, guys are making 30 g for a rebuild. Funny I have owned 3 997s. No issues, if this is such a problem, who would ever support Porsche. I sure wouldn't..
Just keep driving them. Most arent worth fixing at their current valuation, and theyll need pistons and sleeves to repair anyway.
Hmmmmm it’s not what you can get for the price of repair only (30k+) it’s what can get for 30k plus the cost of the original car.
Shouldn't Porsche be making an affordable replacement engine for these cars for their reputation alone? Most people buy 996 and 997 as the entry into Porsche. As these cars go by the wayside more and more because of this obvious defect they will lose a return customer base.
Not the worst thing in the world to spend 30k on until you factor in the low Canadian dollar OUCH
HMMM MAYBE I LL JUST GET A VETTE OR LS SWAP IT FOR MUCH LESS !! DAMN Porsche tax !! FOR THE RECORD l agree with everything they re doing repair and upgrade wise BUT why hasn't Porsche done all of this already from factory in the first place ??!! THEY sound like they re using the same cost cutting measures the big 3 are using here :(
Mechanically totaled Porsches.
Step 1: Open Wallet.
Step 2: Beg wife to stay.
Step 3: Cry yourself to sleep.
Just LS Swap the V8 ... be done with it.
I love Porsche but they aren't the tour de force they pretend to be. Toyota owners don't loose slepp over IMS bearings or bore scoring
Step 1. Accept you played yourself. 2. Bend over and get ready. 3. Take it hard. 4. Go to the bank and drain your savings. 5. Wait 2 years to get the car back. Congratulations the car is fixed and you got screwed again. Hope you liked it and felt it was worth it.
To buy these cars, you would surely be insane. German made products have a false reputation for quality. BMW anyone???