They could also be more powerful NA too today, 1500 total horses without any Hybrid assistance and full reliability all season long reliability. With the turbo deletion it could be lighter along with being more responsive with a linear torque curve compared to the 1.6 Turbo v6s, Cost would be down and the only gripe is fitting the Hybrid system (Which honestly is just dead weight and has very little road relevance like, an argument that could be made for the V10 ig as well ofc).
Having witnessed and experienced an F1 V10 at full rev's, It's a genuine shame we don't have them around. These engines were a statement. F1 was never about matching road cars, it was all about pure performance, pushing the boundaries futher, not regressing and becoming dull and mundane.
i witnessed v12's and it was even better, the v10 was just too loud and the sound was just screeching my ears, still 1000 times better than the garbage we got now
That’s why the 80s are remembered so fondly by racing fans, engineers were allowed to just go wild. It was purely about pushing the limits, rather than pushing the limits of a VERY restricted ruleset.
@@retrocompaq5212 No, just no. The V12 (Ferrari variety) sounded awesome, but nothing beats the V10 insanity...especially hearing them howl off into the distance, with that melancholic, almost singing note. Beautiful, beautiful engines.
I helped develop the V10 and later the V8 for one of the teams in the good ol days of F1. Our last V10 we had on the dyno for a last test and we had over 1000hp at over 20k rpm.
@@GamezGuru1 190 to 195kg/h. We used a double fuel rail with direct injectors and variable trumpets with actuators changing the intake length depending on engine revs to optimise torque.
You lived my dream, bud 😀. Those were the glory days of engine development; it seemed like there was an upgrade at every race weekend. In just a decade, the specific power shot up from approx 200 to over 300 hp. Btw, could the engine you're talking about be P85? I understand,though, if you're still bound by the code of silence and can't divulge that information. I also remember the insane
I loved it when the rules were a capacity and the manufactures built whatever config they wanted. Hearing the different cars was fantastic, you could tell exactly what was coming. As a kid watching the F1's in Australia, the V12 Ferrari and Honda were incredible, they were almost scary how loud they were.
@@n8pls543 think in 88 there was a crossover year where McLaren, Ferrari and Benetton used turbos and the rest NA. The turbos were limited to about half the boost and they still dominated the NA cars
@@kidpagronprimsank05 you could do it like the WEC. They have a lot of freedom in design, but there is a "Balance of Performance" which is another hot button issue. And they have certain power and downforce targets you cannot overstep and they are pretty easy to reach. So for example the Peugeot Hypercar runs without a rear wing, because they are already at the downforce target with their ground effect.
@Appletank8 First FIA needs to open up regulations to allow different configurations and more RPM limit. As soon as someone finds that V10 config will give them the championship, it’ll be a reality in no time
@@thecompanioncube4211 We just got 2, maybe even 3 new engine OEMs specifically for the new engine rules coming in 2026. How many would instead join for a V10? Would it be good for F1 if only 2, or even 1 OEM made engines for everyone?
@@Appletank8 3 new plus old 4 (Ferrari Merc, Honda, Renault). If 6-7 engine manufacturers in 10/11 teams, there's more than enough wiggle room. I am not saying it will happen in first year of 2026. But till 2029-2030? Definitely realistic in my opinion. Just FIA needs to chill a bit
@@thecompanioncube4211 That's not what I said. You assume that the only reason manufacturers aren't building V10s is because the rules prevent them. No, only Ferrari really has a reason to build large, 8+ cylinder engines, heck they were the loudest voice that pushed for V6, the rest were fine with I-4 for the turbo hybrid regs. The fans' excitement for replacing hybrid v6s for V10s is not exactly shared by the OEMs that have to sink billions into developing something they have zero use for. They don't grow off trees waiting for the right person to pluck them. Honda, Audi, GM, and Ford are quite specifically here for that hybrid powertrain, and the rules negotiated for in 2026. A high probability is them seeing that F1 with V10 and no hybrid system, is no longer worth the eyes, and going home. So I ask, would you be happy with V10s returning to F1 if only Ferrari is interested in building them?
@@Amy-dq2lg What road cars? It's being removed from F1 because it's complicated and expensive. I can't imagine it's going to be on anything other than extreme hypercars.
Haha, this is all props to Red Bull for having a very easy to use media center, and Ferrari having a media center more complicated than their Sunday strategy.
@@EngineeringExplained you could have used pictures of the 2006 Red Bull car, which had a Ferrari engine. (although that was the first year of V8's, so somebody would have complained anyways)
I really think that F1 lost sight of what exactly it is that theyre selling, I know a lot of people will say advertising and you'd be correct but they damaged their product so thoroughly with their disjointed approach to their rules for the last 15+ years. You really nailed it at the end in asking what are they showcasing now? Because I grew up with the same era of cars as you EE and the sounds that those v10's made in 02/03/04, were, for a budding car guy were something that I tuned into races to watch/hear. I don't anymore, as the driving is as good as ever but without the auditory cacophony that the earlier iterations of rules allowed for I just don't care. I know I am not alone in this and it's very sad.
Agreed. I went to Goodwood FoS back in 2007 and I will never forget the reverb of an F1 V10 bouncing off the clouds when I was about a mile away from arriving at the event slowly getting louder and more clear as I got closer. Anyone who mocks anyone for being critical of today's F1 cars need to experience that, then come back to me with their arguments of how great the current drastically overweight hyper-expensive hybrids the big car manufacturers begged for at the expense of the dedicated race engine builders like Cosworth, then didn't even bother showing up aside from Honda (Honda has been involved in F1 consistently with the occasional sabbatical since the 60s, they would've come back anyway V6T hybrid or not). There's even an interview of Lewis Hamilton at Abu Dhabi a few years ago where there's an old V10 demo run in the background and even he, a 7 times world champion, gets giddy, gets distracted, and goes on a tangent about what F1 has lost. Not exactly someone who's never seen an F1 car before.
@EngineeringExplained I'm pretty sure that the sound is damaging to your eardrums since you can "feel" the sound behind your eyeballs. Even with the use of proper earplugs. :)
I went to Indianapolis in early 2000 to watch F1 and they still had the V10s. I could hear the engines roared even I was outside the stadium. Inside the stadium you thought they were flying jet engines planes in front of you.
I worked on the Tyrrell 023 historic F1 powered by a Judd V-10 producing about 750 HP at 11,000 RPM (detuned so they could last 1500 race miles instead of 500 to 600 race miles for the Yamaha Judd F1 engine). Some of the differences not noted: the engines needed to be at least 160° before starting because of the tolerances, the engines ran on very high octane racing fuel, not pump gas, there was no onboard starter and the cars only weighed 1312 lbs. with the driver. The wheels were magnesium and I could pick up a rear tire and wheel with one hand.
@@jamesmedina2062They still do it today. I think it was 30 minutes before race start they pump the oil and water through external heaters to bring the engine up to temperature before starting them. The same is done to the gearbox oil. It's not only F1 where this is common, but also racing series like DTM do it.
LMFAO, the engines aren't warmed up b/c of 'tolerances', the AP oxidizer (compounded w/ silicon) has to be hot enough to sublimate under vacuum. They're 'detuned to last' b/c it' byproduct is Silica Nitrate, aka the material used to make grinding wheels. When Silicon bonds with Nitrogen, the exothermal energy is around 35x that of H2O. In conventional Octane, the CO2 reaction is indothermic. The claim of 60% efficiency is pure sophistry, they don't account for real fueling conditions. NASCAR has been using it to cheat since the 60'.
Watching an F1 race today without the screaming V10s is like watching an action movie with the speakers built in the TV instead of your home theatre. Bring back the V10s!
Without question. The best sound EVER. Better than V8, better than V12. Like CGT or LFA is the best stock road car music. I was lucky to be at couple of races in 2004. WOW, it was soooo loud, we couldn't hear each-other for 2 hours after the race. Check Alonso V10 practice in the new V6 era... Eargasmic.
Agree. F12s are 100% more awesome than V12s. I still think the flat 12 in the Porsche 917 is the greatest sounding engine of all time @@solitaryclusterofneurons598
My first GP in the modern era that I attended was the Australian GP in 2000, what I can still clearly remember was the percussive noise the cars made when they changed gears, it hit you on the chest every time
The V6s are so quiet that you don't need to wear hearing protection at the races anymore. I remember in 2010, the V8s were so loud that even with hearing protection they were remarkable.
Oh I wouldn't say that. The V6s are still really loud, just not a shrieker like the V10 and V8 so earplugs aren't necessarily needed. It's more a lower bass growl that relatively up close makes you feel like your eyeballs are vibrating in their sockets
I'm 40 and I'd rather have to wear ear protection. Haven't watched F1 since 2015. It's just not the same thing that I grew up loving. I tried, but its not for me anymore. You guys can have it.
This is actually true. I was at a F1 race this summer and had brough with me hearing protection but ended ut not using it for the F1/F2 cars, it was not even slightly uncomfortable without. I even sat on tribune seats not more than 30 m from the track. For the F3 and Porsche cars it was needed though.
The core (and interesting part) of the modern F1 engine is actually the MGU-H, since they are getting rid of that I think they should go back to V10s. Edit: You heard the Honda RC166 bikes from the 60s? Maybe they should cut the displacement of the engines again and make them rev higher.
@@PaperBanjo64and watch the manufacturers beside ferrari or maybe redbull powertrains leaving instantly lol. Maybe small engine builder and developer will join but we'll have experienced giants vs handicapped midget race.
If the V10 returned to F1, or via synthetic fuels or via Hydrogen ICE, it would just need a few seconds reeving it up, for the symphony make the fans instantly get bored with the current V6 Turbo Hybrids or Formula E.
Those who never experienced in person can't even imagine. It's not just the sound, but you feel gearshifts in your chest. (By Standing beside the track )
For me it's the sounds of the V10 that makes it, and also probably the age I had when I was watching F1, pretty sure that sound bring some nostalgia for many of us 35-45yo folks 😅
It’s not just nostalgia. The older I grow, the more I doubt myself like that sometimes. But then I see F1 using V10 sounds in their intro with modern Turbo V6 imagery, I feel assured that it was actually the best sound and not just my nostalgia talking
I enjoy the technology in F1 and watching the sport progress since the early 90s. I say let them use the 3.0 V10 with the current hybrid systems and turbo, give them VVT and run on sustainable fuels. I don’t really care how much fuel they use, the teams will naturally try and make them as efficient as possible for weight savings and race strategy anyways. Then we can reasonably leverage the technology to consumer engines running less rpm for durability and smaller displacement for reduced emissions.
For me, it should be - here's an amount of fuel to use for the race. Here is a MINIMUM fuel flow limit (to prevent excessive fuel saving), here is the minimum weight of the car. Have fun y'all. They would all probably converge on the same format...as that tends to happen. But how cool would it be to have a grid where there were v6 turbos, v8s with KERS, v10s and v12s all competing!!!
Impressive numbers for sure, but let's not forget that those engines were running insane boost levels, special fuels, and lasted for about 3 laps at best. There's a reason those same engines were making only about half the power in race trim.
@@PaperBanjo64 Not rocket fuel, which is composed of fuel mixing with an oxidizer to create an explosive effect, usually by using liquid oxygene and hydrazine. What they used in F1 during those unrestricted boost years was *toluene* (also called methylbenzene) which constituted a large percentage of the fuel. Toluene is some highly potent chemical which is hazardous and dangerous to inhale (the fuel men had to wear special industrial masks). It can lead to nerve damage. Toluene has a superior energy density to gasoline and thus can extract more power for any given volume. For this reason it's a great octane booster, and that was definitely needed when the boost was raised to insane levels. The F1 racers did not use 100% toluene, but 84%. The other 16% in their brew is n-heptane, which has an octane rating of zero. The reason for this strange combination is because the F1 "rocket fuel" was limited to the rules to being of 102 RON octane. The n-heptane is "filler" to make the fuel comply with the rules. Because toluene is such an effective anti knock fuel it also means that it is more difficult to ignite at low temperatures. The Formula 1 cars that ran on 84% toluene needed to have hot radiator air diverted to heat its fuel tank to 70C to assist its vaporization.
Jason, I absolutely love these F1 explanation videos! Please keep making more! If F1 is as serious as they say they are about the fan experience then it's a no-brainer to go synthetic fuels and V10. They have the means and brainpower to figure it out.
You would think that VVT would be allow in F1 because every normal car has it. VVT will also increase the efficiency of the engine in a larger powerband.
They have infinitely variable valve timing. They don't even have camshafts. The valves operate pneumatically and are computer controlled. They're light years ahead of any road going VVT systems.
Nothing beat the scream of the 2004 F1 cars at top end at Indy! I had front straight seats. The 2008 V8 F1s had a higher scream but I was at a slow corner there (Montreal). PS 4-wide Top Fuel is more amazing, like a moving earthquake!
Would be fun to bring the Ducati V4R into the mix with ~240 HP out of a naturally aspirated 1 liter in an emissions compliant road legal production vehicle.
Unfortunately the new V4R only makes the full 240 if you option the race exhaust and oil from the factory, which is NOT emissions compliant. Still a lot of hp/liter though.
So theoretically it could make about 720 hp if it's 3 of them, 3 liters I've seen the dyno bike videos and it has often been disappointing numbers, so maybe about 650 hp at 240 ft lb torque, 3.0L V10/V12? @ 16,500 rpm V10 F1 cars made 300 ft lb torque
I'm studying mechanical engineering hoping to pursue automotive engineering later and for the life of me i can't stress enough how much you inspire me and how much your videos help me to actually understand engines, numbers and their meanings as opposed to the majority of car enthusiats who memorize terms and use them without really understanding (most often employing them in an unprecise context confusing everyone) Keep up the great work!
1950-2006 Engine revs: Unrestricted. 2007 & 2008: 19,000 rpm, and so on and so forth. In 2006 I read somewhere that the Renault engine (by the way that year also was the last of the 'no freeze development' rules throughout the year) was reaching 20,500 rpm in Qualy mode and 775 CV peak power from it's 2.4L V8.
On your last point, I thing sustainable fuels, whether synthetic or bio derived, should bring a new freedom to the rules in the form of only limiting the engines by the size of the fuel tank and the emissions they put out. If you can make a fuel from the waste of farms and use that to power a V12 that can go a full race without refuelling with a tiny fuel tank and only puts out CO2 and water, let them. No reason to limit engine displacement, layout, cylinder count, stroke, bore, or V angles. Bring an H16, if it can last the race and win, why not. Maybe they could find a balance to allow "oil burning" engines with the same regs to allow 2 strokes and wankels if the teams so want it but that could be a difficult balancing act to make sure one isnt way better than the other or getting way more "fuel" because it has multiple combustion sources.
Underappreciated that the 911 engine comes close in performance and unlike others will not break all the time. What's the point of making the V-6 "relevant to today's cars" and then banning variable valve timing and lift?
Just finished watching Jason Cammisa's ICONS episode on the Cybertruck and thought it'd been a while since we saw an EE video. Was half-hoping for a deep dive into 48 volt and why more cars aren't using it but an F1 engine video will do ;)
@@squidcaps4308 yeah I watched the video, hence "deep dive" as it can't just be that simple. (Cammisa obviously has to choose what he spends time on when talking about a whole car) If it's that clear cut, surely we'd just keep increasing the voltage if it has no drawbacks and end up with super high voltage systems.
@@Ubarius Oh, there is a huge drawback: all insulation has to be thicker as higher voltages go thru insulation much easier. There is also arcing, much less of a problem until we are at kilovolt ranges. They are also VERY dangerous, you could put both hands on a 48V rail and feel nothing but mild tingle, do the same on a 96V rail and you get zapped, not enough to be really dangerous but enough to get your heart racing because of the scare you but 480V would just straight up start to kill you. So, we don't want to go too high in voltage either but want to find a happy compromise. After all, the motors need power and they don't really care if it is high voltage or high current, both just have their own drawbacks. The same reason is why people in USA don't use electric water kettles; in 240V mains getting 2kW of power is quite easy, the wiring is all standard but to do the same on a 120V system.. all the wiring should be twice as thick, which usually is not the case in the receptacles meant for kitchen appliances. The electric oven, clothes drier etc things that require loads of energy work with 240V in USA.
This is a fantastic video. 😀 I would give anything to see the v10s come back on synthetic fuel. That would truly be amazing and would transform F1 back into the spectacle it used to be.
F1 teams used V10s to play God Save the Queen and V8s to play the Happy Birthday song. Therefore those engines qualify as musical instruments (unlike mayonnaise and the current V6s).
One thing that i missed is a mention to the weight of the power plants. The new ones with the all the electric systems intercooler and so on, are far heavier that the old V10s. One of those old V10s weight about 70kg, and produced almost a 1000hp. They were not allowed to use things like variable intake length and so on. Pretty insane figures for what their weight is.
One thing not mentioned that also speaks in favor of the old V10s, is the weight. The current 1.6L TT V6 units are 145kg (although I think they were about 125kg at their lightest), while the old V10s were as light as 85kg. I wouldn't say that the Porsche engine is necessarily better than that of the T.50 or the Valkyrie. While it does have more torque/L at peak power, the T.50 has higher torque/L at peak torque (465Nm vs 479Nm). It also almost certainly produces more torque at 8500RPM (the peak power for the Porsche) - as the peak torque is produced at 8000RPM - but it's harder to sustain it all the way to 11000RPM where it makes peak power.
Hey Jason, you, as a F1 V10 fan, could make an interview or call a brazilian engine engineer that's worked for Renault for 20 years. I'm pretty sure this video can be amazing, cuz he's absurdly genius and fanatic for this F1's era. His name is Rico Penteado. Think of this idea.
I wonder what are the harmonics involved in creating the distinct V12, V10 and V8 sounds. The V12s have a unique sound, but the V10 had a trumpet like Yowl to it that had a very unique character.
A V12 is two inline 6s set at an angle. The harmonics of each V6 are well balanced and can be set at any angle. The exhaust overlaps of each bank are right for smooth flow (but back pressure limits power. A V10 is two inline 5s. The harmonics are perfect at certain angles. The exhaust overlaps are small making a lot of noise and power. A V8 is two inline 4s. The harmonics are terrible so need balance shaft or cross plain crank (heavy but sounds cool). To maximize the exhaust flow requires combining both banks but that increases back pressure. So no good solutions. A V6 is two inline 3s. Harmonics are good, no exhaust overlaps so would sound ok except you have to run a single turbo, which is a big muffler… If you want max noise a single piston normally aspirated turning 24k RPM should make a terrible mix of harmonics.
To maximize the noise you need the exhaust to pulse. A single piston four stroke is “on” 25% of the time, making a lot of 2nd and 4th harmonic noise. A two stroke only makes 2nd harmonics.
i fully agree it would be very nice to see the N/A engines but with sustainable fuel . i've heard the V10 irl and also the V8 F1 engines during a race. watching a race is better on tv but the sound is nothing compared to irl .
I worked on the Sauber car in the V10 era (Illmore engines). My primary memory of the engine is how crazy the engine management was. We had FPGAs doing the timing.
They should bring them back and just run them on E-fuels or bio fuels with maybe a simple regen system. Bring back the noise! Or at least the V-8s, most of the teams are supercar makers anyway so the relevancy argument is hogwash. There isn't a single V6 on the road that has anything to do with the tech in an F1 PU.
They shouldn't. The teams don't want to for several reasons. The development of F1 to road is not necessarily as simple as "tech is on F1 car, tech goes to road car", it takes time for big bits of tech to do that. A lot of development for oil and fuel products we use in the modern day started in F1. Also the AMG One would disagree with you, given it's engine is a literal F1 engine made to behave on the road
@@C.I... 1. At the first journo test it was and at least Mercedes were honest about it. 2. So is the valkyrie by that metric, given it needs a total engine rebuild every 100,000 miles. My point is the OP said no V6 road car has any relevance to F1 engines yet seemed to forget about the One.
@@dod_the_angel Literally the ONE. As in, the one and only. By that measure, let's talk about the Ferrari F50 and it's F1 derived V12. Formula 1 is here for entertainment; the "innovation" aspect is largely irrelevant now with the rules the way they are.
I’ve long preferred the ACO approach: “Your car cannot make more than 550 horsepower. How you do that is up to you.” That’s an oversimplification, but it feels like it drives more real innovation than we see in F1 today.
I couldn’t agree more. If the fuel is sustainable then whey not make the best NA engine and stop messing with the hybrid assist crap. I don’t see a reason to go to the races in person with the cars in there current state. On the other hand If a screening V10 is running down the front straight that is worth seeing and hearing in the flesh. Thanks for sharing EE.
I am glad that you commented on the irrelevance of torque without context. I think that the relationship between power and torque are some of the most misunderstood concepts in the automotive arena. The car makers don't help because their ads confuse the issue.
The most impressive thing about the current F1 engines is not their power it's their reliability. Those V10's only had to last a race or 2 not the upwards of 5 races the current allotment of 4 is supposed to last.
I wonder how F1 logistics work. Given the engine that is made for maximum possible performance within rules are made to very tight tolerance, and therefore certainly needs specialized machinery, and specialist workers for exotic parts.
I love your content bro! I do want to inform you that you rarely ask people to like and subscribe. Which actually might be a problem for some viewers. I guarantee that there are alot of people out there who are missing your content because you rarely remind them to "remember to like and subscribe if you want more videos like this in your feed" Like a service to your viewers so they remember to click the subscribe or bell icon. Most people just forget. Keep being awesome!!!
The combination of these engines making the world’s greatest noise and the aggressive yet light cars of the time truly are the pinnacle of F1 and it hasn’t been the same since
If they showed we could still make exciting and powerful V10s with net zero from sustainable fuels then we wouldn't have to transition the entire world to EVs and a lot of people that have a lot of power would make a lot less money.
Well, it seems to be working in the WEC.... All the ACO series are running on French-made biofuel produced from wine waste since 2022. There's still hope for road combustion yet!
They’re using F1 as a running prototype to achieve whatever their goals are as you mentioned their target was a very thermally efficient engine. Mercedes achieved a diesel-like efficiency in 2014 and now Honda have gone beyond what Merc capable of doing in 2014. I believe doing a normal R&D vs doing R&D using a highly competitive engineer in a competitive sports is going to speed up the process lot more if we implement the later.
@Engineering Explained - You should do a video on the axial flow rotary valve engine they tried to make for 2003/2004 in F1. Could rev even higher due to the lack of a reciprocating valve train. Bishop was the name. I've built a few of these engines myself in the pursuit of a better breathing engine.
While an engine spinning at 20k rpm is incredible music, I do prefer the quieter cars when it comes to watching the races in person. I am clearly getting old! “You kids get off my lawn”! LMAO. Great show as always!
The F1 V10's were definitely screamers but the 3.5L V12's from Lamborghini and Ferrari had a deeper tone that made them my favorite sounding race engines.
FUN FACT: a 2.4L V8 COSWORTH CA (first F1 engine to exceed 20,000 RPM) was apparently sold last year for $26,000 US. not necessarily a running engine but an assembled Long Block (much like the Ferrari static displays shown) with those sexy convoluted headers attached, it was in the hands of a collector here on the East Coast in Pennsylvania. would've made a nice edition to my Motorsports Man Cave, but the Wife would kill me if i spent that much for just a bloody ENGINE and i didn't get the rest of the body, wheels, seats, transmission, etc to go with it. i mean can get away with a lot more than most in terms of "frivolous spending", but that's a bridge too far.
Now that we established that the Ferrari F1 engine makes 307HP/l, let's conpare it to the Honda V5 engine in the RC213 MotoGP, making about 350HP from previously 800ccm, now 990ccm.
15:16 I really agree with you there Jason. The moment FE announced is the moment F1 loses all its relevancy in "next-gen car" if there was any at all. They should let the engineer lose and let it be the "Formula" like it was meant to be.
formula 1: releases untold amounts of CO2, per capita, moving whole teams of people and equipment around the globe every week also formula 1: "let's make a sustainable fuel standard so we can show we're with the times!"
@@michaelre7556 that sound right, but F1 has no control of how people get to the race. again it's not about the total carbon emitted, but the per capita from moving everything around. the amount of fuel used by the cars during a race weekend is minuscule compared to how much it takes to MOVE said cars across the ocean. formula 1 should just accept it's a sport of excess, and drop this hypocricy. if they really cared about sustainability, they'd run the whole season on one track
@erkinalp while it'd be cool to see, nurburgring hasn't been used in f1 for a while because it's too long, so it'd require too many marshals and make it too difficult to get safety cars and tow trucks where they're needed I'm aware many racing series use it. I'm not sure why f1 thinks it's unfit, but endurance cars are ok
not convinced - turbo engines had been around for decades, and were fundamentally more thermally efficient. Most power per litre, does not mean most efficient use of fuel...
They were impressive engines but they didn't have that good fuel efficiency. In race conditions even group C cars from 80s were better IIRC, something like 55l/100km vs 70l/100km. Not quite apples to apples comparison as prototypes generally are bit more efficient aerodynamically than open wheelers and over course of a race group C cars probably had little less power on average, but they were a lot heavier so I guess that evens out somewhat. Either way, high revving small NA engine is usually not going to be very good with fuel efficiency.
@@GamezGuru1 When the V10s were racing, they were the most fuel efficient naturally apsirated engines. They delivered more kw or hp per liter of fuel than anything else.
@@AndyFromBeaverton Yeah I know and that wasn't all that great on those engines. It's hard to do exact comparison but again in race conditions: F1 V10 cars: around 70-80l/100km for 950hp peak on average; group C was limited to 51l/100km and for example Jaguar XJR-9 (7,0l NA V12) max power is about 750hp on average. That brings us about 12,6hp for liter of fuel for F1 V10 and 14,7hp/l of fuel for Jaguar. Sure it's not the most scientific comparison as the numbers are very rough ballpark figures and there may be differences in fuels, cars are different etc.. But if anything, I'd imagine fuel used in F1 would have been more energy dense and of course F1 cars are much lighter so in fact, the F1 car seem even less impressive in this aspect. Thing is, these high revving low torque engines are inherently pretty inefficient and during that time refueling was allowed in F1, so fuel efficiency was not priority. Most important was to make as much power as possible with as light engine as possible within limits set by rules.
I think that we should go with the naturally-aspirated Inline-5 for a while. Lower displacement than anything before it, more length to force a longer wheelbase (for greater cornering stability regardless of downforce generation), the most closely related exhaust note (which will still make make the people happy, even if not quite as much), an opportunity to revamp the regulations to match what they claim to want being achieved, and an efficiency bias towards high-end throttle/load (via the absence of boost pressure).
People often forget that the current V6 engines are using about 1/2 as much fuel as the cars of the V10 era. Cars now have to carry all their fuel for the race, something those V10 cars didn't have to. So even if you were to pluck a V10 engine and put it into a modern car today, you'd need to leave room for some 200kg of fuel... or you'd just have to do a LOT of lifting and coasting, as well as short shifting to save fuel, and then carry like 180kg instead. People keep talking about what if V10 cars could have DRS and slicks. Well, what if today's cars could have 2x the fuel flow and make 1600+hp? There is no doubt in my mind that the current engines, although not sounding particularly good, are the most insanely well engineered engines of all time. Reliable, efficient, powerful. The V10 engines back then only had 1 of those traits.
I was lucky to see and hear v10 live. All I can say is sound of f1 v10 outclass everything including fighter jets. It is not all about to decibels. There is a magic I can't describe make v10s special.
Yeah, strategy wins are kind boring anyway. Shorter races mean less strategy and pits and every lap is more important and drivers would have to be more aggressive and battle on track. My only worry is that would just make every race overly Q dependant and every team just builds ripping Q cars and tries to win that way. There is so much money at play in this sport, it seems like everything has a tendency to slide into the least risky most conservative outcome which is boring to watch.
The hybrid system turns qualifying into a total mess with the need to spend a whole lap charging the battery before a fast lap. Makes impeding more likely to happen and increases how impactful it is at the same time.
You brought fuel into the discussion and then didn't mention that Formula 1's fuel was probably like 100 octane. But I have to say, I see your passion for V10s, and I share it. My favorite thing about them is how they sound like they hate life. They sound so ridiculously angry. I really like 4-cylinders because they sound angry as hell too, but the V10 is the only thing that sounds like it hates life more.
Seems like lower torque would actually be a bonus on F1 cars in terms of drivability. Especially in slow corners where you don't have downforce helping much, it would be very easy to break the tires loose as soon as you touch the throttle of a high-torque engine. With a low-torque but fast-revving engine, you can maximize traction in all driving conditions.
Yes, the Ferrari engine also has a higher peak torque rating. The issue is, that if you calculate torque based on peak power at a certain rpm, you only get the torque for that point in the rpm range. normally peak torque and peak power are not at the same rpm.
My dream for a logical power train in F1 would be: 2.0L in-line 6 revving to 20,000rpm limit. Simple aluminum construction. Then have and MGU with about 300hp but mainly torque filling the ICE. With the advent of e-fuels F1 should really bring back in race refueling for safety and weight reduction and strategy options and the ability for the tire supplier to create a high quality tire that doesn’t have to fall apart to ensure pit stops. Sure it can degrade a little, but not made to do so like current Pirelli. The sound and in-line 6 motor would make with a big bore would be epic.
The sounds of V10s are just, special. The pitch is perfect, the scream is neither a cry nor a grunt. It just speaks cleanly and loudly.
Remember that there is no voice louder than the voice of freedom. Freedom for Palestine 🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸
Agreed, far more then to a "Greatest Engine of all time" then numbers
@@biogdimmohamed9120 Which part?
They could also be more powerful NA too today, 1500 total horses without any Hybrid assistance and full reliability all season long reliability. With the turbo deletion it could be lighter along with being more responsive with a linear torque curve compared to the 1.6 Turbo v6s, Cost would be down and the only gripe is fitting the Hybrid system (Which honestly is just dead weight and has very little road relevance like, an argument that could be made for the V10 ig as well ofc).
Personally I've always preferred the v8s especially with the blown diffuser the downshifts were magical.
Having witnessed and experienced an F1 V10 at full rev's, It's a genuine shame we don't have them around. These engines were a statement. F1 was never about matching road cars, it was all about pure performance, pushing the boundaries futher, not regressing and becoming dull and mundane.
I'll always brag that i was a witness and hear it in person for the generations to come :D no mic can capture the true sound of it
i witnessed v12's and it was even better, the v10 was just too loud and the sound was just screeching my ears, still 1000 times better than the garbage we got now
Find yourself a I6, TT, BMW 135, it's close!
That’s why the 80s are remembered so fondly by racing fans, engineers were allowed to just go wild. It was purely about pushing the limits, rather than pushing the limits of a VERY restricted ruleset.
@@retrocompaq5212 No, just no. The V12 (Ferrari variety) sounded awesome, but nothing beats the V10 insanity...especially hearing them howl off into the distance, with that melancholic, almost singing note. Beautiful, beautiful engines.
I helped develop the V10 and later the V8 for one of the teams in the good ol days of F1. Our last V10 we had on the dyno for a last test and we had over 1000hp at over 20k rpm.
would love to know the fuel flow rate >150 kg/hr?
@@GamezGuru1with their sizes and rpm, I'd wager more like 200+
@@GamezGuru1 190 to 195kg/h. We used a double fuel rail with direct injectors and variable trumpets with actuators changing the intake length depending on engine revs to optimise torque.
You lived my dream, bud 😀. Those were the glory days of engine development; it seemed like there was an upgrade at every race weekend. In just a decade, the specific power shot up from approx 200 to over 300 hp.
Btw, could the engine you're talking about be P85? I understand,though, if you're still bound by the code of silence and can't divulge that information.
I also remember the insane
Williams BMW ??
V10 is the pinnacle of F1 engines no doubt. 👌🏽
But the flat 12 is still the best sound.
no v10@@SpacemanXC
Porsche 917 is the greatest sounding race car of all time, imho. The Ferrari 412's are a close second. @@The_Buttcheek_Bandit
Not even close.
v12 sounded much better in person than v10
I loved it when the rules were a capacity and the manufactures built whatever config they wanted. Hearing the different cars was fantastic, you could tell exactly what was coming. As a kid watching the F1's in Australia, the V12 Ferrari and Honda were incredible, they were almost scary how loud they were.
Shame that didn't extend to letting the teams use turbo V6s if they wished -- for some reason.
@@n8pls543 think in 88 there was a crossover year where McLaren, Ferrari and Benetton used turbos and the rest NA. The turbos were limited to about half the boost and they still dominated the NA cars
v12 ferrari ftw, greatest f1 engine sound ive experience in my life by far
The problem with capacity rules is that eventually it will still lead to the same conclusion (like rally with I4 with 2.0L rules).
@@kidpagronprimsank05 you could do it like the WEC. They have a lot of freedom in design, but there is a "Balance of Performance" which is another hot button issue. And they have certain power and downforce targets you cannot overstep and they are pretty easy to reach. So for example the Peugeot Hypercar runs without a rear wing, because they are already at the downforce target with their ground effect.
16 mins later the only question in my head is *"so, when do we bring back the V10s ⁉️"* 😅
You need to find a manufacturer willing to make and support race ready V10 engines.
@Appletank8 First FIA needs to open up regulations to allow different configurations and more RPM limit. As soon as someone finds that V10 config will give them the championship, it’ll be a reality in no time
@@thecompanioncube4211
We just got 2, maybe even 3 new engine OEMs specifically for the new engine rules coming in 2026. How many would instead join for a V10? Would it be good for F1 if only 2, or even 1 OEM made engines for everyone?
@@Appletank8 3 new plus old 4 (Ferrari Merc, Honda, Renault). If 6-7 engine manufacturers in 10/11 teams, there's more than enough wiggle room. I am not saying it will happen in first year of 2026. But till 2029-2030? Definitely realistic in my opinion. Just FIA needs to chill a bit
@@thecompanioncube4211 That's not what I said. You assume that the only reason manufacturers aren't building V10s is because the rules prevent them. No, only Ferrari really has a reason to build large, 8+ cylinder engines, heck they were the loudest voice that pushed for V6, the rest were fine with I-4 for the turbo hybrid regs. The fans' excitement for replacing hybrid v6s for V10s is not exactly shared by the OEMs that have to sink billions into developing something they have zero use for. They don't grow off trees waiting for the right person to pluck them.
Honda, Audi, GM, and Ford are quite specifically here for that hybrid powertrain, and the rules negotiated for in 2026. A high probability is them seeing that F1 with V10 and no hybrid system, is no longer worth the eyes, and going home.
So I ask, would you be happy with V10s returning to F1 if only Ferrari is interested in building them?
F1: "Let's use an engine more relevant to modern road cars."
Also F1: "Let's ban all the tech used in modern road cars."
🙄
Precisely, we're no fools!
Tech used in road cars in the 80s!
They're even removing the MGU-H for 2026, when it's finally being used in road cars
@@Amy-dq2lg What road cars? It's being removed from F1 because it's complicated and expensive. I can't imagine it's going to be on anything other than extreme hypercars.
They should just use 4 cylinder, more than 80% of road cars use that.
F1 V10's sound so incredble.
Jason is the kind of guy that uses Ferrari engine to demonstrate the numbers, but only shows images of RedBulls 🤔
Haha, this is all props to Red Bull for having a very easy to use media center, and Ferrari having a media center more complicated than their Sunday strategy.
@@EngineeringExplained you could have used pictures of the 2006 Red Bull car, which had a Ferrari engine. (although that was the first year of V8's, so somebody would have complained anyways)
@@EngineeringExplainedWill Ferrari ever recover from that burn?.... We are checking....
@@EngineeringExplainedHaha.
because Ferrari nowadays is sucks 🤣
The sound of this engine was so iconic
I really think that F1 lost sight of what exactly it is that theyre selling, I know a lot of people will say advertising and you'd be correct but they damaged their product so thoroughly with their disjointed approach to their rules for the last 15+ years. You really nailed it at the end in asking what are they showcasing now? Because I grew up with the same era of cars as you EE and the sounds that those v10's made in 02/03/04, were, for a budding car guy were something that I tuned into races to watch/hear. I don't anymore, as the driving is as good as ever but without the auditory cacophony that the earlier iterations of rules allowed for I just don't care. I know I am not alone in this and it's very sad.
You haven't lived until you've heard one of these V10s in person. It was breath taking.
Ahhh, I need to hear it!
Agreed. I went to Goodwood FoS back in 2007 and I will never forget the reverb of an F1 V10 bouncing off the clouds when I was about a mile away from arriving at the event slowly getting louder and more clear as I got closer. Anyone who mocks anyone for being critical of today's F1 cars need to experience that, then come back to me with their arguments of how great the current drastically overweight hyper-expensive hybrids the big car manufacturers begged for at the expense of the dedicated race engine builders like Cosworth, then didn't even bother showing up aside from Honda (Honda has been involved in F1 consistently with the occasional sabbatical since the 60s, they would've come back anyway V6T hybrid or not).
There's even an interview of Lewis Hamilton at Abu Dhabi a few years ago where there's an old V10 demo run in the background and even he, a 7 times world champion, gets giddy, gets distracted, and goes on a tangent about what F1 has lost. Not exactly someone who's never seen an F1 car before.
@@solitaryclusterofneurons598 I believe that was after qualy in 2020 and Fernando Alonso was in that car
@EngineeringExplained I'm pretty sure that the sound is damaging to your eardrums since you can "feel" the sound behind your eyeballs. Even with the use of proper earplugs. :)
@@0Bumbihuh?
I went to Indianapolis in early 2000 to watch F1 and they still had the V10s. I could hear the engines roared even I was outside the stadium. Inside the stadium you thought they were flying jet engines planes in front of you.
I worked on the Tyrrell 023 historic F1 powered by a Judd V-10 producing about 750 HP at 11,000 RPM (detuned so they could last 1500 race miles instead of 500 to 600 race miles for the Yamaha Judd F1 engine). Some of the differences not noted: the engines needed to be at least 160° before starting because of the tolerances, the engines ran on very high octane racing fuel, not pump gas, there was no onboard starter and the cars only weighed 1312 lbs. with the driver. The wheels were magnesium and I could pick up a rear tire and wheel with one hand.
How was the engine warmed up? I imagine oil or water were heated up and circulated?
@@jamesmedina2062They still do it today. I think it was 30 minutes before race start they pump the oil and water through external heaters to bring the engine up to temperature before starting them. The same is done to the gearbox oil. It's not only F1 where this is common, but also racing series like DTM do it.
LMFAO, the engines aren't warmed up b/c of 'tolerances', the AP oxidizer (compounded w/ silicon) has to be hot enough to sublimate under vacuum. They're 'detuned to last' b/c it' byproduct is Silica Nitrate, aka the material used to make grinding wheels.
When Silicon bonds with Nitrogen, the exothermal energy is around 35x that of H2O. In conventional Octane, the CO2 reaction is indothermic.
The claim of 60% efficiency is pure sophistry, they don't account for real fueling conditions. NASCAR has been using it to cheat since the 60'.
Watching an F1 race today without the screaming V10s is like watching an action movie with the speakers built in the TV instead of your home theatre. Bring back the V10s!
Without question. The best sound EVER. Better than V8, better than V12. Like CGT or LFA is the best stock road car music. I was lucky to be at couple of races in 2004. WOW, it was soooo loud, we couldn't hear each-other for 2 hours after the race. Check Alonso V10 practice in the new V6 era... Eargasmic.
>"better than V12"
1995 Ferrari 412 T2 wants to know your location
Agree. F12s are 100% more awesome than V12s. I still think the flat 12 in the Porsche 917 is the greatest sounding engine of all time @@solitaryclusterofneurons598
@@solitaryclusterofneurons598V12 are smoother and quieter, but that doesn't always equate to better sounding.
My first GP in the modern era that I attended was the Australian GP in 2000, what I can still clearly remember was the percussive noise the cars made when they changed gears, it hit you on the chest every time
Every other car channel: *CYBERTRUCK!!!*
Jason: Classic F1.
Yes, I know he was in Cammisa's video.
The V6s are so quiet that you don't need to wear hearing protection at the races anymore. I remember in 2010, the V8s were so loud that even with hearing protection they were remarkable.
Oh I wouldn't say that. The V6s are still really loud, just not a shrieker like the V10 and V8 so earplugs aren't necessarily needed. It's more a lower bass growl that relatively up close makes you feel like your eyeballs are vibrating in their sockets
I'm 40 and I'd rather have to wear ear protection. Haven't watched F1 since 2015. It's just not the same thing that I grew up loving. I tried, but its not for me anymore. You guys can have it.
V6 is quiet because of turbo, not 6 cylinder.
I still bring earplugs because the support races are much louder than the main event. Especially the Porsche GT races!
This is actually true. I was at a F1 race this summer and had brough with me hearing protection but ended ut not using it for the F1/F2 cars, it was not even slightly uncomfortable without. I even sat on tribune seats not more than 30 m from the track. For the F3 and Porsche cars it was needed though.
Thank you so much for the metric convertions! Really appreciate it!
The core (and interesting part) of the modern F1 engine is actually the MGU-H, since they are getting rid of that I think they should go back to V10s.
Edit: You heard the Honda RC166 bikes from the 60s? Maybe they should cut the displacement of the engines again and make them rev higher.
MGU-H has never been relevant to road car technology though. The cost, the complexity, the limited benefits, it just doesn't make any sense.
The engine need to rev over 4000rpm to spin turbo and MHUH, on the road who do that? Most of us drive under 300prpm.
Especially if they're using synthetic fuels, just put a V10 back, and watch the competition come back!
@@PaperBanjo64and watch the manufacturers beside ferrari or maybe redbull powertrains leaving instantly lol. Maybe small engine builder and developer will join but we'll have experienced giants vs handicapped midget race.
If the V10 returned to F1, or via synthetic fuels or via Hydrogen ICE, it would just need a few seconds reeving it up, for the symphony make the fans instantly get bored with the current V6 Turbo Hybrids or Formula E.
That's why you'll never see historic races with F1 cars at the same event as current F1. The maFIA knows what the people would prefer.
@@AndyFromBeaverton I remember how hyped I would get with some onboards with a F1 V10 at full throttle.
@@AndyFromBeaverton I worked the first Austin race and they had historic open wheel cars that included V-10s.
@@johncooper4637 Were they running during the same weekend? How long were the races? At Monaco, they run them two weeks before the F1 race.
@@johncooper4637detuned and not revving to the limit. And some with softer exhausts.
Those who never experienced in person can't even imagine. It's not just the sound, but you feel gearshifts in your chest. (By Standing beside the track )
Thanks for the SI unit insert !!!!
For me it's the sounds of the V10 that makes it, and also probably the age I had when I was watching F1, pretty sure that sound bring some nostalgia for many of us 35-45yo folks 😅
It’s not just nostalgia. The older I grow, the more I doubt myself like that sometimes. But then I see F1 using V10 sounds in their intro with modern Turbo V6 imagery, I feel assured that it was actually the best sound and not just my nostalgia talking
Same, nothing sunds better.
I enjoy the technology in F1 and watching the sport progress since the early 90s. I say let them use the 3.0 V10 with the current hybrid systems and turbo, give them VVT and run on sustainable fuels. I don’t really care how much fuel they use, the teams will naturally try and make them as efficient as possible for weight savings and race strategy anyways. Then we can reasonably leverage the technology to consumer engines running less rpm for durability and smaller displacement for reduced emissions.
For me, it should be - here's an amount of fuel to use for the race. Here is a MINIMUM fuel flow limit (to prevent excessive fuel saving), here is the minimum weight of the car. Have fun y'all. They would all probably converge on the same format...as that tends to happen. But how cool would it be to have a grid where there were v6 turbos, v8s with KERS, v10s and v12s all competing!!!
In WEC,teams can make different kinds engines@@lankyboy90
Let's also remember that back in the 1980s F1 cars were making 1500hp (in qually trim) from 1500cc, which is 1kbhp/l...
And running some pretty special fuels to do so. One of the more sensible regulations now is that they must run something resembling gasoline.
Rocket fuel in fact
Impressive numbers for sure, but let's not forget that those engines were running insane boost levels, special fuels, and lasted for about 3 laps at best. There's a reason those same engines were making only about half the power in race trim.
600 lb-ft / 800+ Nm torque at maybe 12k rpm
@@PaperBanjo64 Not rocket fuel, which is composed of fuel mixing with an oxidizer to create an explosive effect, usually by using liquid oxygene and hydrazine.
What they used in F1 during those unrestricted boost years was *toluene* (also called methylbenzene) which constituted a large percentage of the fuel. Toluene is some highly potent chemical which is hazardous and dangerous to inhale (the fuel men had to wear special industrial masks). It can lead to nerve damage.
Toluene has a superior energy density to gasoline and thus can extract more power for any given volume. For this reason it's a great octane booster, and that was definitely needed when the boost was raised to insane levels.
The F1 racers did not use 100% toluene, but 84%. The other 16% in their brew is n-heptane, which has an octane rating of zero. The reason for this strange combination is because the F1 "rocket fuel" was limited to the rules to being of 102 RON octane. The n-heptane is "filler" to make the fuel comply with the rules.
Because toluene is such an effective anti knock fuel it also means that it is more difficult to ignite at low temperatures. The Formula 1 cars that ran on 84% toluene needed to have hot radiator air diverted to heat its fuel tank to 70C to assist its vaporization.
Jason, I absolutely love these F1 explanation videos! Please keep making more! If F1 is as serious as they say they are about the fan experience then it's a no-brainer to go synthetic fuels and V10. They have the means and brainpower to figure it out.
You would think that VVT would be allow in F1 because every normal car has it. VVT will also increase the efficiency of the engine in a larger powerband.
They have infinitely variable valve timing. They don't even have camshafts. The valves operate pneumatically and are computer controlled. They're light years ahead of any road going VVT systems.
Nothing beat the scream of the 2004 F1 cars at top end at Indy! I had front straight seats. The 2008 V8 F1s had a higher scream but I was at a slow corner there (Montreal). PS 4-wide Top Fuel is more amazing, like a moving earthquake!
Would be fun to bring the Ducati V4R into the mix with ~240 HP out of a naturally aspirated 1 liter in an emissions compliant road legal production vehicle.
Unfortunately the new V4R only makes the full 240 if you option the race exhaust and oil from the factory, which is NOT emissions compliant. Still a lot of hp/liter though.
So theoretically it could make about 720 hp if it's 3 of them, 3 liters
I've seen the dyno bike videos and it has often been disappointing numbers, so maybe about 650 hp at 240 ft lb torque, 3.0L V10/V12? @ 16,500 rpm
V10 F1 cars made 300 ft lb torque
I'm studying mechanical engineering hoping to pursue automotive engineering later and for the life of me i can't stress enough how much you inspire me and how much your videos help me to actually understand engines, numbers and their meanings as opposed to the majority of car enthusiats who memorize terms and use them without really understanding (most often employing them in an unprecise context confusing everyone)
Keep up the great work!
Alternate Title: EE roasts current F1 engine regulations for 15 minutes
1950-2006 Engine revs: Unrestricted.
2007 & 2008: 19,000 rpm, and so on and so forth.
In 2006 I read somewhere that the Renault engine (by the way that year also was the last of the 'no freeze development' rules throughout the year) was reaching 20,500 rpm in Qualy mode and 775 CV peak power from it's 2.4L V8.
We will never see or hear the scream of an F1 car doing 20,000 + rpm again 😭 RIP My friend 😢
On your last point, I thing sustainable fuels, whether synthetic or bio derived, should bring a new freedom to the rules in the form of only limiting the engines by the size of the fuel tank and the emissions they put out. If you can make a fuel from the waste of farms and use that to power a V12 that can go a full race without refuelling with a tiny fuel tank and only puts out CO2 and water, let them. No reason to limit engine displacement, layout, cylinder count, stroke, bore, or V angles. Bring an H16, if it can last the race and win, why not.
Maybe they could find a balance to allow "oil burning" engines with the same regs to allow 2 strokes and wankels if the teams so want it but that could be a difficult balancing act to make sure one isnt way better than the other or getting way more "fuel" because it has multiple combustion sources.
Underappreciated that the 911 engine comes close in performance and unlike others will not break all the time. What's the point of making the V-6 "relevant to today's cars" and then banning variable valve timing and lift?
FIA are a joke. They think the MGU-H has no relevance on road cars too when it does for turbo hybrids.
It’s not just the power of V10 that we love. But the sound of pure power! ❤️ unlike F1 engines today that sound like a scooter on steroids 🤣
Just finished watching Jason Cammisa's ICONS episode on the Cybertruck and thought it'd been a while since we saw an EE video.
Was half-hoping for a deep dive into 48 volt and why more cars aren't using it but an F1 engine video will do ;)
Les volts = more current, more current = more heat and thicker wires. Double the voltage and you can halve the cable thickness.
There are many luxury cars using 48v for high power/energy consumption components like mild hybrid systems, rear steer modules, air suspension, etc.
@@squidcaps4308 yeah I watched the video, hence "deep dive" as it can't just be that simple. (Cammisa obviously has to choose what he spends time on when talking about a whole car)
If it's that clear cut, surely we'd just keep increasing the voltage if it has no drawbacks and end up with super high voltage systems.
@@Ubarius Oh, there is a huge drawback: all insulation has to be thicker as higher voltages go thru insulation much easier. There is also arcing, much less of a problem until we are at kilovolt ranges. They are also VERY dangerous, you could put both hands on a 48V rail and feel nothing but mild tingle, do the same on a 96V rail and you get zapped, not enough to be really dangerous but enough to get your heart racing because of the scare you but 480V would just straight up start to kill you. So, we don't want to go too high in voltage either but want to find a happy compromise. After all, the motors need power and they don't really care if it is high voltage or high current, both just have their own drawbacks.
The same reason is why people in USA don't use electric water kettles; in 240V mains getting 2kW of power is quite easy, the wiring is all standard but to do the same on a 120V system.. all the wiring should be twice as thick, which usually is not the case in the receptacles meant for kitchen appliances. The electric oven, clothes drier etc things that require loads of energy work with 240V in USA.
Thanks for popping over! Cybertruck was a quick last minute cameo, but I hope to dive into the truck with time!
This is a fantastic video. 😀 I would give anything to see the v10s come back on synthetic fuel. That would truly be amazing and would transform F1 back into the spectacle it used to be.
F1 teams used V10s to play God Save the Queen and V8s to play the Happy Birthday song. Therefore those engines qualify as musical instruments (unlike mayonnaise and the current V6s).
One thing that i missed is a mention to the weight of the power plants. The new ones with the all the electric systems intercooler and so on, are far heavier that the old V10s. One of those old V10s weight about 70kg, and produced almost a 1000hp. They were not allowed to use things like variable intake length and so on. Pretty insane figures for what their weight is.
When they downshift, it hits you like thunder, absolutely epic live...
Exactly! It hits you in the chest
The sound is just awesome, the ear approves
One thing not mentioned that also speaks in favor of the old V10s, is the weight. The current 1.6L TT V6 units are 145kg (although I think they were about 125kg at their lightest), while the old V10s were as light as 85kg.
I wouldn't say that the Porsche engine is necessarily better than that of the T.50 or the Valkyrie. While it does have more torque/L at peak power, the T.50 has higher torque/L at peak torque (465Nm vs 479Nm). It also almost certainly produces more torque at 8500RPM (the peak power for the Porsche) - as the peak torque is produced at 8000RPM - but it's harder to sustain it all the way to 11000RPM where it makes peak power.
Hey Jason, you, as a F1 V10 fan, could make an interview or call a brazilian engine engineer that's worked for Renault for 20 years. I'm pretty sure this video can be amazing, cuz he's absurdly genius and fanatic for this F1's era. His name is Rico Penteado. Think of this idea.
Or most Ilmor Tech's !
This was fantastic, thanks! Also an F1 fan, and equally frustrated at the efforts to constantly nerf those wonderful cars.
I wonder what are the harmonics involved in creating the distinct V12, V10 and V8 sounds. The V12s have a unique sound, but the V10 had a trumpet like Yowl to it that had a very unique character.
A V12 is two inline 6s set at an angle. The harmonics of each V6 are well balanced and can be set at any angle. The exhaust overlaps of each bank are right for smooth flow (but back pressure limits power.
A V10 is two inline 5s. The harmonics are perfect at certain angles. The exhaust overlaps are small making a lot of noise and power.
A V8 is two inline 4s. The harmonics are terrible so need balance shaft or cross plain crank (heavy but sounds cool). To maximize the exhaust flow requires combining both banks but that increases back pressure. So no good solutions.
A V6 is two inline 3s. Harmonics are good, no exhaust overlaps so would sound ok except you have to run a single turbo, which is a big muffler…
If you want max noise a single piston normally aspirated turning 24k RPM should make a terrible mix of harmonics.
@@gordonn4915 A 2-stroke or rotary makes twice the "rpm sound" doesn't it?
Needs only 12k rpm to make that 24k noise or even 40k noise at 20k
To maximize the noise you need the exhaust to pulse. A single piston four stroke is “on” 25% of the time, making a lot of 2nd and 4th harmonic noise. A two stroke only makes 2nd harmonics.
I'm not engineer, but I guess how combustion chambers shaped, valves and pistons synchronization, and exhaust
Thanks Jason, I really appreciate the on-screen conversions.
BRING BACK THE V10s! BRING THEM BACK I SAY!
This is the FIRST time in a decade that I’ve heard a reasonable argument for bringing back V10s- one that wasn’t just complaining. Sweet.
i fully agree it would be very nice to see the N/A engines but with sustainable fuel . i've heard the V10 irl and also the V8 F1 engines during a race. watching a race is better on tv but the sound is nothing compared to irl .
It makes me so sad that I never got to experience the NA cars in person.
Sebastian Vettel owns Nigel Mansell's Williams F1 car and drives it running on sustainable fuels during shows.
I worked on the Sauber car in the V10 era (Illmore engines). My primary memory of the engine is how crazy the engine management was. We had FPGAs doing the timing.
They should bring them back and just run them on E-fuels or bio fuels with maybe a simple regen system. Bring back the noise! Or at least the V-8s, most of the teams are supercar makers anyway so the relevancy argument is hogwash. There isn't a single V6 on the road that has anything to do with the tech in an F1 PU.
They shouldn't. The teams don't want to for several reasons. The development of F1 to road is not necessarily as simple as "tech is on F1 car, tech goes to road car", it takes time for big bits of tech to do that. A lot of development for oil and fuel products we use in the modern day started in F1. Also the AMG One would disagree with you, given it's engine is a literal F1 engine made to behave on the road
@@dod_the_angel The AMG One was also a failure in terms of reliability.
@@C.I... 1. At the first journo test it was and at least Mercedes were honest about it.
2. So is the valkyrie by that metric, given it needs a total engine rebuild every 100,000 miles.
My point is the OP said no V6 road car has any relevance to F1 engines yet seemed to forget about the One.
@@dod_the_angel Literally the ONE. As in, the one and only. By that measure, let's talk about the Ferrari F50 and it's F1 derived V12. Formula 1 is here for entertainment; the "innovation" aspect is largely irrelevant now with the rules the way they are.
I’ve long preferred the ACO approach: “Your car cannot make more than 550 horsepower. How you do that is up to you.” That’s an oversimplification, but it feels like it drives more real innovation than we see in F1 today.
I couldn’t agree more. If the fuel is sustainable then whey not make the best NA engine and stop messing with the hybrid assist crap. I don’t see a reason to go to the races in person with the cars in there current state. On the other hand If a screening V10 is running down the front straight that is worth seeing and hearing in the flesh. Thanks for sharing EE.
always a pleasure to listen to you talking about engines and their tech man. appreciate it.
All i can say is the current v6 sounds no where near as good as the v10. By no means is it bad, just not as good
I am glad that you commented on the irrelevance of torque without context. I think that the relationship between power and torque are some of the most misunderstood concepts in the automotive arena. The car makers don't help because their ads confuse the issue.
Would you like to see my pocket ruler, Jason?
This is awesome! I’ve always wanted this video.
The most impressive thing about the current F1 engines is not their power it's their reliability. Those V10's only had to last a race or 2 not the upwards of 5 races the current allotment of 4 is supposed to last.
...but they cost how much, and how reliable were they the first 2 seasons....?
Yeah but AFAIK blowing a V10 per weekend would be cheaper than the very reliable V6 they use now so....
I wonder how F1 logistics work. Given the engine that is made for maximum possible performance within rules are made to very tight tolerance, and therefore certainly needs specialized machinery, and specialist workers for exotic parts.
I love your content bro!
I do want to inform you that you rarely ask people to like and subscribe. Which actually might be a problem for some viewers.
I guarantee that there are alot of people out there who are missing your content because you rarely remind them to "remember to like and subscribe if you want more videos like this in your feed"
Like a service to your viewers so they remember to click the subscribe or bell icon. Most people just forget.
Keep being awesome!!!
The combination of these engines making the world’s greatest noise and the aggressive yet light cars of the time truly are the pinnacle of F1 and it hasn’t been the same since
Loved it Jason, wish you were working for FIA! 😄
If they showed we could still make exciting and powerful V10s with net zero from sustainable fuels then we wouldn't have to transition the entire world to EVs and a lot of people that have a lot of power would make a lot less money.
lol...."big EV"...haha...give me a break...it's still the oil companies. Don't kid yourself.
Well, it seems to be working in the WEC.... All the ACO series are running on French-made biofuel produced from wine waste since 2022. There's still hope for road combustion yet!
1:07 lmao at Jason's smirk during this segment as he imagines all the angry keyboard warriors for him daring to insult their Ferrari V10s 😂
F1 V10 in real life is the greatest sound of all time
They’re using F1 as a running prototype to achieve whatever their goals are as you mentioned their target was a very thermally efficient engine. Mercedes achieved a diesel-like efficiency in 2014 and now Honda have gone beyond what Merc capable of doing in 2014.
I believe doing a normal R&D vs doing R&D using a highly competitive engineer in a competitive sports is going to speed up the process lot more if we implement the later.
V10 forever
@Engineering Explained - You should do a video on the axial flow rotary valve engine they tried to make for 2003/2004 in F1. Could rev even higher due to the lack of a reciprocating valve train. Bishop was the name. I've built a few of these engines myself in the pursuit of a better breathing engine.
Great. Now Chevy spark prices are going to skyrocket. Thanks whiteboard math.
While an engine spinning at 20k rpm is incredible music, I do prefer the quieter cars when it comes to watching the races in person. I am clearly getting old! “You kids get off my lawn”! LMAO. Great show as always!
The F1 V10's were definitely screamers but the 3.5L V12's from Lamborghini and Ferrari had a deeper tone that made them my favorite sounding race engines.
Agree 100%. Those early 90's V12s were much more "musical". The V10s were impressive, but too harsh.
FUN FACT: a 2.4L V8 COSWORTH CA (first F1 engine to exceed 20,000 RPM) was apparently sold last year for $26,000 US. not necessarily a running engine but an assembled Long Block (much like the Ferrari static displays shown) with those sexy convoluted headers attached, it was in the hands of a collector here on the East Coast in Pennsylvania. would've made a nice edition to my Motorsports Man Cave, but the Wife would kill me if i spent that much for just a bloody ENGINE and i didn't get the rest of the body, wheels, seats, transmission, etc to go with it. i mean can get away with a lot more than most in terms of "frivolous spending", but that's a bridge too far.
Now that we established that the Ferrari F1 engine makes 307HP/l, let's conpare it to the Honda V5 engine in the RC213 MotoGP, making about 350HP from previously 800ccm, now 990ccm.
15:16 I really agree with you there Jason. The moment FE announced is the moment F1 loses all its relevancy in "next-gen car" if there was any at all. They should let the engineer lose and let it be the "Formula" like it was meant to be.
Won't number of cylinders play a role in this comparison?
Maybe my favorite video of yours, ever. Time to talk about opposed piston engines. I mean, you brought it up...
formula 1: releases untold amounts of CO2, per capita, moving whole teams of people and equipment around the globe every week
also formula 1: "let's make a sustainable fuel standard so we can show we're with the times!"
I can't prove it, but I'm pretty sure that the lion's share of the pollution from F1 is actually from all the fans traveling.
@@michaelre7556 that sound right, but F1 has no control of how people get to the race.
again it's not about the total carbon emitted, but the per capita from moving everything around. the amount of fuel used by the cars during a race weekend is minuscule compared to how much it takes to MOVE said cars across the ocean.
formula 1 should just accept it's a sport of excess, and drop this hypocricy. if they really cared about sustainability, they'd run the whole season on one track
@@juancuelloespinosa I totally agree.
@@juancuelloespinosa have all F1 races in Nürburgring Gesamtstrecke (nordschleife+südschleife combined) 🤔
@erkinalp while it'd be cool to see, nurburgring hasn't been used in f1 for a while because it's too long, so it'd require too many marshals and make it too difficult to get safety cars and tow trucks where they're needed
I'm aware many racing series use it. I'm not sure why f1 thinks it's unfit, but endurance cars are ok
Thank you, The explanation I was looking for. Well done.
Easily the most efficient use of fuel from its time.
not convinced - turbo engines had been around for decades, and were fundamentally more thermally efficient.
Most power per litre, does not mean most efficient use of fuel...
They were impressive engines but they didn't have that good fuel efficiency. In race conditions even group C cars from 80s were better IIRC, something like 55l/100km vs 70l/100km. Not quite apples to apples comparison as prototypes generally are bit more efficient aerodynamically than open wheelers and over course of a race group C cars probably had little less power on average, but they were a lot heavier so I guess that evens out somewhat. Either way, high revving small NA engine is usually not going to be very good with fuel efficiency.
@@GamezGuru1 When the V10s were racing, they were the most fuel efficient naturally apsirated engines. They delivered more kw or hp per liter of fuel than anything else.
@@pekkasalminen9601 Fuel efficiency is how much power/energy can be created relative to a volume of fuel over time.
@@AndyFromBeaverton Yeah I know and that wasn't all that great on those engines. It's hard to do exact comparison but again in race conditions: F1 V10 cars: around 70-80l/100km for 950hp peak on average; group C was limited to 51l/100km and for example Jaguar XJR-9 (7,0l NA V12) max power is about 750hp on average. That brings us about 12,6hp for liter of fuel for F1 V10 and 14,7hp/l of fuel for Jaguar. Sure it's not the most scientific comparison as the numbers are very rough ballpark figures and there may be differences in fuels, cars are different etc.. But if anything, I'd imagine fuel used in F1 would have been more energy dense and of course F1 cars are much lighter so in fact, the F1 car seem even less impressive in this aspect.
Thing is, these high revving low torque engines are inherently pretty inefficient and during that time refueling was allowed in F1, so fuel efficiency was not priority. Most important was to make as much power as possible with as light engine as possible within limits set by rules.
I think that we should go with the naturally-aspirated Inline-5 for a while. Lower displacement than anything before it, more length to force a longer wheelbase (for greater cornering stability regardless of downforce generation), the most closely related exhaust note (which will still make make the people happy, even if not quite as much), an opportunity to revamp the regulations to match what they claim to want being achieved, and an efficiency bias towards high-end throttle/load (via the absence of boost pressure).
If you had seen a turbo-hybrid car in person you would know how daft it sounds to ask for a longer wheelbase.
@@joelambert7128 I'm referring to a track-exclusive motorsport monster, not a road-going family car.
It would be if they kept improving it over time.
Honestly if they changed the Regs to V10s, we'd see similar numbers to what we had before in a few seasons because of how insane the engineering is
@@coliimusic most likely yes.
Love your stuff Jason! The "relevancy" question gets answered when you are trying to attract major manufacturers and their MONEY!!!
The best F1 V10 engine still is the Renault RS25, best sounding engine ever made.
I'm guessing this was shot back to back with the hagerty cameo... Awesome btw. Thanks for this video.
People often forget that the current V6 engines are using about 1/2 as much fuel as the cars of the V10 era. Cars now have to carry all their fuel for the race, something those V10 cars didn't have to. So even if you were to pluck a V10 engine and put it into a modern car today, you'd need to leave room for some 200kg of fuel... or you'd just have to do a LOT of lifting and coasting, as well as short shifting to save fuel, and then carry like 180kg instead. People keep talking about what if V10 cars could have DRS and slicks. Well, what if today's cars could have 2x the fuel flow and make 1600+hp? There is no doubt in my mind that the current engines, although not sounding particularly good, are the most insanely well engineered engines of all time. Reliable, efficient, powerful. The V10 engines back then only had 1 of those traits.
I was lucky to see and hear v10 live. All I can say is sound of f1 v10 outclass everything including fighter jets. It is not all about to decibels. There is a magic I can't describe make v10s special.
If there's only 70kg of synthetic fuel per car I'd still rather watch V10's doing 20 laps than these shitty hairdryers we have today doing 70-odd laps
Yeah, strategy wins are kind boring anyway. Shorter races mean less strategy and pits and every lap is more important and drivers would have to be more aggressive and battle on track. My only worry is that would just make every race overly Q dependant and every team just builds ripping Q cars and tries to win that way. There is so much money at play in this sport, it seems like everything has a tendency to slide into the least risky most conservative outcome which is boring to watch.
The hybrid system turns qualifying into a total mess with the need to spend a whole lap charging the battery before a fast lap. Makes impeding more likely to happen and increases how impactful it is at the same time.
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You brought fuel into the discussion and then didn't mention that Formula 1's fuel was probably like 100 octane. But I have to say, I see your passion for V10s, and I share it. My favorite thing about them is how they sound like they hate life. They sound so ridiculously angry. I really like 4-cylinders because they sound angry as hell too, but the V10 is the only thing that sounds like it hates life more.
Seems like lower torque would actually be a bonus on F1 cars in terms of drivability. Especially in slow corners where you don't have downforce helping much, it would be very easy to break the tires loose as soon as you touch the throttle of a high-torque engine. With a low-torque but fast-revving engine, you can maximize traction in all driving conditions.
Thanks for doing F1, now you gonna get lot of fans
5 cylinder motors create a perfect fifth. This musically sounds appealing to the ear. Double it to create a 10 cylinder then you have perfection 🤌
13:00 wasnt the Ferrari F50 the same concept? Road car with F1 (based) engine?
On the Wikipedia of BMW Williams FW26 2004 it had a claimed torque of 302 lb-ft or 410 Nm
Yes, the Ferrari engine also has a higher peak torque rating. The issue is, that if you calculate torque based on peak power at a certain rpm, you only get the torque for that point in the rpm range. normally peak torque and peak power are not at the same rpm.
My dream for a logical power train in F1 would be:
2.0L in-line 6 revving to 20,000rpm limit. Simple aluminum construction. Then have and MGU with about 300hp but mainly torque filling the ICE. With the advent of e-fuels F1 should really bring back in race refueling for safety and weight reduction and strategy options and the ability for the tire supplier to create a high quality tire that doesn’t have to fall apart to ensure pit stops. Sure it can degrade a little, but not made to do so like current Pirelli. The sound and in-line 6 motor would make with a big bore would be epic.
The humour in this video is exceptionally killer :D