EQ6 Tuning and Backlash removal. Also new guiding in PHD2 at 0.3 total rms error
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ส.ค. 2024
- EQ6 Tuning and Backlash removal. Also new guiding in PHD2 at 0.3 total rms error
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The meter is of a high quality and works really well. Not only is it great for helping to find perfect balance in stiff mounts but it is a fantastic aid to fine tuning your mount for the best guiding. It will assist you in adjusting your worm drive/gear mesh to the optimum setting and giving you great smooth tracking and excellent guiding numbers.
Great stuff. I watched this after watching your teardown, rebuild + bearing replacement video on EQ6-R Pro mount. I just adjusted the sticktion on DEC and RA by backing off how tight nuts were on bottom of DEC and behind polar scope on RA. Very easy to perform and results on balancing are fantastic! I used channel locks and cloth to loosen RA nut. Loosened DEC "cup" nut by hand. Initial imaging session appears to have dropped total guiding error from 0.7-1.0" to 0.5-0.6". I've worked on electro-mechanical systems used in semiconductor facilities all my life, so that helps with these procedures! But I'm still a newbie to astrophotography, and all the associated hardware and software. I will have to try the backlash adjustments shown in this video next. Thank You for the very clear demonstration and explanation of these adjustments. They allow people to greatly increase the performance and value of their mounts, without paying through the nose to have someone else do it!
Hi Ralph and thank you for watching and taking the time to comment. The mounts often come out of the factory way too tight and it just requires the adjustments you made. I most probably could have got away with just doing that but I love tinkering with mechanics so was always going to strip the mount completely. I am sure your knowledge and experience will help you a lot and wish you luck in your pursuit of this fascinating hobby.
Wow those guiding numbers are amazing. I'm sure other EQ6 owners will be keen to follow your instructions to tune their mounts.
Thank you Logan. Yes I am very happy with that so its almost ready for you to visit. Just need the weather to behave and my new scope to arrive.
I hypertuned th eq6rpro couple days ago. I went with superlube also, says rated for 40 belowF. I was worried about final adjustments but again your video was spot on. My mount went from crazy declination movements while guiding and then stopping, in CO cold weather, to guiding to .55arc sec last night. I've learned a lot about how mounts work as well. Thanks again, Frank
Excellent results Frank and thank you for taking the time to share that with me. I am very pleased the video was helpful and the mount now gives you great guiding. Clear skies
Super video. Your contributions to the Astro community are unmatched and greatly appreciated
Thanks Derek thats really kind of you to say that
Nice video Glenn! Great explanation of tuning the mount and awesome guiding numbers. I've actually just finished with mine as well and mentioned you in my video on it. I was getting close to the same numbers as you but not quite as good around .4 total rms which I'm thrilled with. Thanks ever so much for doing these rebuild videos, they've helped me tremendously!
Thank you Joe. Liked your video too. 0.4 is awesome guiding though
Excellent work......Because of your tutorials, I've cleaned and re-greased everything on my exos2gt mount(very similar to heq5), replaced old motors with astro-gadgets belt mod and did the PEC training, Now I'm down to .35 to .50 consistently on phd2. Thank you very much for taking the time to make these videos.
Thats great news and very pleased. You clearly did a good job and glad the videos helped.
The part at 2:52 (tightening float nuts) is exactly what I've been searching for for a very long time. Thanks!
You are welcome Ryan and thank you for commenting. I think its very easy to overtighten these.
Last update for now. Got my desired best of both worlds last night !! Good backlash graph and stable guiding at around 0.6-0.7. Will work with phd 2 now to see what I can do to improve it more. Would like to be able to improve on my RA, seems I have a rather large Periodic error to deal with.
Thanks for all the great help and encouragement !!
Sounds like you are getting it nicely tuned in. PEC training may be what is needed next to help sort out the Periodic error thats present in the RA. Not that 0.6-0.7 is anything bad.
This and the rebuild video most helpful, thank you. Very clear instructions. Looking forward to tuning up my own EQ6!
Glad it was helpful! Thank you for commenting
Another great video mate, just ordered a set of bearings for my EQ6. Although my guiding numbers aren't too bad the amount of tight spots when balancing has always concerned me. cheers.
You may be able to just take some tension off the 2 main shaft nuts as they seem to be done up well tight. That can free a lot of the stiffness up.
Thought I'd give you an update. After finally getting a good guiding assistant backlash graph and noticing my guiding was just a bit worse then just before, I thought I would try and get the best of both worlds. Using an amp meter I tightend the mesh what seemed to be barely perceptual and I immediatly ran into problems with moving south again. Tried to reverse and then I couldnt get north movement !! Am back at it again tonight but clearly there is some method to this madness of fine adjustments I dont quite see yet. This is extremely touch to put it mildly. When you say that the final touches are like just barely barely moves that seems an understatement ! Hope others reading will get this point. I'll keep you posted as my experiences may help you in some future video explainling the how to do it bit. 🙂
Hi Richard and thank you for the updates. The final adjustments are ridiculously tiny and its hard to express this. I have found that its better to be a tiny loose rather than tight. I find that as long as the backlash is measurable by PHD2 it can be adjusted for by the software.
This is wonderful! Thank you for taking the time to show your work and explain the potential improvements and issues. I’ll definitely be doing this while I wait for weather to improve and for my edge hd 8 to arrive!
Thank you. Should give great results for your great scope
Very informative Glenn, thank you, very well explained
Looking forward to the PEC training
I will record a specific PEC curve and show it for this rebuild.
One of many very useful videos from you! I just had my NEQ6 belt modified, but when I got it back, I have serious issues with my dec axis. I did run the guide assistant including the measure backlash, and it show indeed a 'long' horizontal part befor going south again. The reported backlash is >56000ms, but according to your video, it is rather binding, and not backlash? I did run the dec axis 360 degrees both ways by the hand controller, and there is no obvious binding to my notice, no sound or other... I have also posted the question on various FB groups, and some suggest not enough tension on the dec belt. The belt is very hard to access on the NEQ6. So now I don't know if I should loosen or tighten the worm gear! 🤔😄 And clear skies are very rare these days in Norway! 😟
Again thanks for your informative videos! 👍🏻
Hi and I hope I can help. If its fine binding which it most probably is especially if you have zero play in the axis it can still rotate fully with out stopping. Back off the Worm carrier so there is the smallest amount of play possible and re run. The worm and gear need to move freely and PHD2 guise assistant can correct for a small amount of backlash but cannot do anything for fine binding. This is the only set back as both will look the same on the guide assistant graph. Its extremely unlikely you have that amount of backlash and if you did you would feel that in the axis by manually wobbling it while the clutch is locked. Please let me know how you get on and if I can help anymore
@@Astrobloke Many thanks, I will let you know! 😊
Excellent topic and demonstration. Well done.
Thank you Garnett, appreciate your kind comment
Nice. Suggestion: I'd recommend painting your silver thermal wall insulation flat black to cut down on reflection of skyglow, ambient light, and even LEDs on power supplies. (I covered the bright on on my EQ6 with a sticker. I can still see in the dark, barely, but that thing was designed too bright.)
Thank you and great suggestions. I no longer use that obsy as I have built a much larger one recently at a new location with a warm room. Its my most recent videos if you want to check them out. Thanks for watching
Great tutorials for people wanting to do this Glenn, top work.
Thanks Ollie.
A lot of good videos on your channel!
Thank you for your kind comment. Hope they are helpful
Fantastic results Glenn.. that should produce some nice tight stars. :)
Thanks James. Yes the guiding will definitely help that along nicely. Just need to know when to stop tinkering and take some images
Hi Glenn, your tutorial helped me a lot :) I also reworked my EQ6-R and documented it on YT. I put a shoutout to you in my description. keep up the good work. CS, Marten
Thank you Marten. I am really pleased it helped you and what nice guiding you achieved after. Nice collection of images too. I have subscribed to your channel, Clear skies
Thanks for another great video. I just did the backlash adjustment on a new HEQ 5 Pro. There was quite a bit but now I feel no play and there is no binding (confirmed with a multimeter testing the current draw for a full 360 on both axes did not change.) Looking forward to trying it out.
Rowan Belt mod parts arrive next week. Looking forward to try that too.
Nice and the belt mod should improve things further. Let me know your results and thank you for commenting
@@Astrobloke Thank. do you know if it is normal for the motors to get slightly warm? I didn't take notice before adjusting the backlash. Now they are just slightly warm after a few minutes of practice slewing.
@@Wolfie6020 I would think after slewing that would be normal but I really do not know as never checked. I shall do that though and let you know
Nicely explained Glenn
I’ll check those screws to see if it makes a difference to my new EQ6R pro. I was shooting low last night (about 22 dgrs) I think that affected my guiding, I was getting .9 - 1.1 out of the box! Too much atmosphere I guess/hope!
Cheers Glenn
did you finally get your mount? Low will really test the guiding but I would think it could be improved. I would start with PHD2 adjustments and guiding assistant and then move onto PEC training first and see what that changes
@@Astrobloke Yes mate, it arrived! Tested it out now, going ok but guiding is a bit high!
Thanks for sharing that Glenn, I’m sure it will come in useful 👍
Hi again. After the summer and a bit through the winter I started having guiding problems again and noticed a few important screws had become loose. Upon starting to re adjust the gear mesh I noticed that the spindle adjustment could introduce signifigant backlash if I lossened it for any given gear mesh setting. This leads me to scratching my head a bit as to how to be sure where any apparent backlash is coming from.
Its a but like that where you tend to chase around. I normally leave the spindle and focus purely on the worm carriers for adjustment. I have for a while now not worried about the backlash size so much as that can and is compensated for in PHD2 its any kind of binding that is the killer for good guiding.
Gracias por el vídeo!
De nada, where are you in the world? Are your skies nice and dark?
@@Astrobloke In Spain, in the south of Europe, where I usually mount the telescope it is between 4 and 5 bortle. Your video helped me, I bought a used eq6r and it had a bit of backlash, it was solved in two minutes with the instructions... thanks again!
@@luisgutierrez6347 i am very happy it helped, they are good mounts.
My Astrophotography journey started in Spain as my wife’s parents lived in Arboleas and she lived for 5 years in mojacar. I took an image of the Milkyway as it was so dark in Arboleas and was wowed by the details. That was the start.
Great tutorial again Glenn😀
Thank you
Great video on tuning this mount, amazing what it is capable of with some fine tuning, cleaning, new quality bearings etc. a basically good mount out of the factory becomes an excellent mount with some careful work, easily within the capability of most who like to go the extra ‘mile’. I note you have various mounting plates on the mounts you have worked on, where do you buy them, please, they look well worth adding to the mounts. Stay safe and best wishes from ‘down under’. 👍🔭🇦🇺
Hi Shevill. Both my HEQ5 and EQ6 R PRO are now just a dream to use, guiding between 0.3 and 0.5. I have always done my own mechanics with cars and motorbikes for years so taking these mounts apart and rebuilding was a really fun task for me. It is however very accessible for most with very modest tools as you say. I initially upgraded the saddle on the EQ6 because the original was not that great and the white paint used to grip my losmandy plates when trying to slide a scope in. That one is by ADM and I bought from Firstlightoptics.co.uk. On the HEQ5 I upgraded the saddle because it was the older model and only held vixen dovetails (all my scopes are now on Losmandy) that saddle was by Geoptic and I bought from Rothervalleyoptics. ADM do one too but I liked the orange lol. th-cam.com/video/QLJUy-DrPlI/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/LJ-egFak5ZU/w-d-xo.html
Thank you
You're welcome
Great video on the eq6r. I started to get bad guiding and made adjustments, waiting for tonight for results. I will rebuild it this fire season here in Northern California as it’s 2 or 3 months of smoky sky’s. Oh had a question did you get to the 2. Something. 3 is insane in my mind .
Thanks Dan. On the very best seeing I have had it guiding 0.3 - 0.5 which I was very happy with. I have since bought an EQ8 R PRO for my observatory so the EQ6 is now back on its tripod in the garden. Most nights guiding is rarely over 0.7 but mostly 0.4 - 0.5. I think the extra stability of the pier and the Obsy protection from any wind helped a lot.
Really awesome job Sir! I’m having a very bad issue with my EQ6 R-Pro, and I was hoping you can advise me how to fix it - my Dec in PHD2 guiding is completely wild, and I can’t seem to find the reason why. I did try to adjust the backlash, made sure everything it’s balanced properly, and get it perfectly polar aligned, and still can’t get it to work properly. I can send you few images to see exactly what I’m talking about.
Thank you,
Adrian
Hi Adrian. Can you send me the graph thats produced when you run guide assistant? That would be a good starting point. www.astrobloke.co.uk
Were you able to fix it? I have the exact same issue :(
Great video 👍
Thank you
Great video - have you ever considered making some extra cash from hyper tuning scopes for other people?
Hi Andrew and Thank you. I kind of thought about it but I don't really have the time unfortunately with work and life. Maybe in retirement
hey Glenn great video , since I tuned my SW AZ GTI, I am ready to upgrade to the SW AZ EQ6 any thought??
Thats a very nice mount, i am sure you will be very happy with that
Hi Glenn! What a great performance and what a great job😳! I would like to ask you if the process of adjusting the mounts(eq6r pro) backlash and applying Permanent PEC is dependent on which you do first? I mean does one impact the other one in terms of performance? You know, like always balance dec first! + what is your opinion on using the Predictive PEC algorithm in PHD2?
Thanks and continue your work please! Clear skies.
Hi Denis and thank you for the kind comments. The PEC really needs to be done after you have adjusted the mount. Any adjustments will have an effect on any periodic errors and the harmonics of the worm drive.
Predictive PEC I have read can be used with PPEC and can work well. I have been trying it out lately but still playing with settings and not found it has made much difference.
Great tutorial again Glenn, thanks.
If you get a chance sometime, could you explain peak to peak and it’s significance. Target display seems to be erratic, how to settle this down or should one just focus on total RMS ?
Thanks
Thank you for your comments its greatly appreciated. I always focus mainly on the total rms error but the peak to peak is important. My understanding is you want the Dec and RA peak to peak numbers to be the same or as close as possible. You can have a good total rms error of say 0.5 but if your Dec is at 0.1 and your RA is 0.5 this could lead to elongated or mishaped stars
Thanks Glenn,
I need to study my guiding as soon as we get clear skies …patience running thin.
Ok.. got started with the fine adjustments last night. Calibrstion went super well in late twighligt and 0.75 guiding came through. But as I ran guide assistant the backlash measurement failed saying it could not clear north backlash. Where should this point me ? Tightening up the dec worm drive a bit ? The calibration graph looked real good..
Here you have to be careful with adjustments as backlash can actually be fine binding between the gears and so require you to back off a bit. I would say the adjustment needs to be with the work carrier, th-cam.com/video/7-QGpHp8vMo/w-d-xo.html If you have not seen this video please take a look as I go further into fine adjustments and it may help guide you.
I started last night with just as barely tight dec drive as I could get. Barely past any wobbling but still a tiny bit noticeble if I looks carefully at the green degree ring. So I think it should be safe to say its not probable binding. Also the holding nut on the worm drive shaft barely tight. Followed your follow up video on hypertuning. Will look at the video you share just now as well. Am trying to be very carefull with adjustmebts from the start working my way from obvious wobble towards any kind of binding and stopping short of that.
Yes.. this was the same video I followed. I am still unsure as to how to intrepret the "clearing north backlash failed" message from guide assistant. My gut tells me I need to tighten the mesh between worm drive and gear, especially since I have started off so close to notiicble wobbel.
@@richardbrekne5646 with your guiding numbers it is extremely close and will need the finest adjustments which may give you better results. Sounds like you are doing a good job. Does
take a little fiddling when you are so close
Awesome video! I have one question what should the guiding rate be Or the speed of a mount rate thanks
Hi Llamar and thank you. In EQMOD I set the tracking speed to 0.5X
@@Astrobloke thank you again keep up the awesome videos and amazing images🔭📸
Hi, I have a question: how did you manage to adjust the worm gear in the AR axis, given that above the gear there is the optical encoder that blocks access to the gear itself? I assume you had to remove the auxiliary encoder, and how did you do it? Anyway, this is a very helpful video!
Hi. There are just 2 screws holding the encoder circuit and a short length screwdriver will enable you access to them and a single screw in the middle of the disc holds that on. Everything is easy to undo and remove and replace.
@@Astrobloke Thanks! I'll try. I wish you Clear Skies!
Brilliant video. Can I just ask, do you use EQmod to run the mount and if so what are you giidespeed setting e.g. x80?
Hi Steve and thank you. Yes I do use eqmod and leave both the RA and DEC at x0.5 which is the default setting.
I adjustet the backlash of mine.
(its hypertuned, new bearings etc)
i got 1200ms backlash but the dec doesent feel like backlash..
what can i do?
The problem with the backlash measurement in PHD2 is fine binding can also show as this so it may be in too tight. All its doing is showing how many pulses it takes to move it in the opposite direction. Try loosening just a fraction and re measure. This video I did may help explain further ProLogik Astro Balance Meter. Get great guiding with perfect balance and gear tuning with this tool
th-cam.com/video/7-QGpHp8vMo/w-d-xo.html
Hope that helps.
I see you have a SkyWatcher 130 Newtonian in your B-roll on the EQ6-R Pro mount. I recognize the rings you are using, but how did you mount the off axis guide scope, et. al.? Interested in doing the same with a comparable Newtonian gifted to me, so any details would be appreciated. Thanks!
I did a video on all the mods and add ons I have done to my 130pds. I think that should help th-cam.com/video/P9nmpkobWHY/w-d-xo.html if not let me know
Hi again. I am now getting good calibrations, guiding between 0 7 and 0.5 averaging at 0.6 or better. But I still cant succesfully measure backlash with guiding assistant.. with 《cant get consistent south movement》as the error message and a graph showing some slight but intermittant tendancy to respond to the south push. Have used a clamp amp meter to balance and adjust the gear mesh as per your video on that subject. Perhaps I should continue to make tiny adjustments to loosen the mesh ?
Your guiding is in a very good range and so you must be extremely close. It does seem strange you are not making enough south movement. Make sure in PHD2 you go to the guiding tab and click on steps and then advanced. In there press reset. Just to make sure the step sizes are correct. Also what guide rate do you have set? If using EQMOD it defaults at 0.2x. I would try 0.5x. I have best success at this rate.
Will check the steps, and have read a bit about how and why to change them. I am at 0.5x guiding speed. The amp meter can also be used to see a reflection of the overall resistance in the drive I find. I did as your video suggested to adjust out any areasbof slew that need obviously more current then the rest, but also found you can loosen or tighten the grub screws tiny amounts and see slight current change. This leads me to think that with a bit of fiddling and watching the current useage I can find an optimal current use for both axis. Perhaps usefull in smoothing evnt RA perodic error as well ?
Got a good backlash graph now. Almost perfect actually. Loosened grubb screws barely.. and I mean barely. Will measure the difference tomorrow in current at guide rate 7. I noticed the RA wandering during guide assistant also was slightly reduced today after I eased that barely also. Implies that periodic error is somewhat affected by slight ra axis binding ? Guiding at 0.5 to 0.6 now.
Can I ask you Glenn. When you slew the mount at highest speed when it’s slightly too tight(maybe just at the point of binding), there’s a kind of weird electrical noise from it(it’s kind of if you asked ET to make an eeee sound lol). Do you know the sound I’m on about? A kind or intermittent eeee sound? Did you experience this when you were slewing mount after moving carrier etc?
I just know I’m going to get some stick for this but it’s hard to describe a sound here lol
Hi Martin. Thats totally normal and yes my mount fast slewing makes that noise too, its the stepper motors
@@Astrobloke well after hours of tweaking the grub screws I’ve finally got it with near enough zero backlash and zero noise. That noise put me off more than the lash!
When I first started trying to get the lash set (tighten RA up)I was loosening say the bottom screw a touch then tightening up the top screw a touch. Then it would be too much and I’d have to do opposite etc. finally I got another way which worked better for me and that was to loosen the bottom screw a couple of turns THEN start on the top screw a tiny bit at a time then tighten the two middle 5mm Allen bolts and have a feel for play,then slew the mount 180deg in one direction then same other direction. If I heard that annoying noise it seemed like I’d tightened the top screw too far so loosened the two Allen bolts again and just loosened the top screw just a teeny bit(not even half the amount I’d tightened in first place).because the bottom grub screw was already loose the weight of the mount was enough to let it drop to the amount I’d loosened the screw off(because the mount would fall against the little brass block inside).
Anyway this worked better for me than trying to play the two grub screws off against each other plus it doesn’t seem a good idea putting any torque at all on these screws as the threads are so small etc.
Anyway after I’d done all that I’d do up the 4 Allen bolts and only then make sure that all grub screws are snug.
Oh and by the way to anyone doing this,MAKE SURE you loosen off the little belt/gear cog panels(3 M3 screws) otherwise the mount won’t move so easily,if at all when you’re adjusting grub screws
Ps I’m back in the house now writing this and just realised I may have the top/bottom screw thing the wrong way around lol.
But anyway my point was to not be loosening one screw a bit then tightening the other to the point where you’ll probably be playing each screw off against the other. Instead, I just adjusted with the one screw and the weight of the mount to aid in dropping it.
I’m wondering if you could use an amp clamp while slewing to see any changes in amp draw to indicate some binding. Thank you for your efforts in showing how to get the most out of out eq6-r
I do believe cuiv the lazy geek has a video on something like this. I think he was using it to check balance but this could work well for finding a uniformed drive of the gears
@@Astrobloke I worked in the hvac field and use an amp clamp to check compressor and fan motors. How sensitive the reading can be might be an issue.
My mount has great dec numbers but the ra is always way more in error. And with my C8 sct I get funny shaped stars sometimes many . My culmination is good. With the spacecat not so much bad stars probably because of the wide field it has. I’m thinking after pec tuning if the funny stars don’t reduce significantly I will check ra backlash and tune it. Mounts only a few months old so don’t wanna take it apart. But when I do where do you get the bearings?
@@danjensen9425 It will be much more noticeable with the C8. If the RA error is a lot more than the dec you will get misshaped stars. A perfect mount would have the same peak to peak on bothe the Ra and the Dec
The RA spindle has this little timer disk on blocking any chance of adjusting it if I think it needs it. Can this only be fine adjusted during rebuild ? I got the dec sorted now and have a rather bumpy RA that I'd like to smooth out. Thanks for any help.
That is the axis encoder so the mount knows the worm gear position for PPEC training. It has a small screw in the centre and can be removed just be gentle. PEC training might be the solution to your bumpy RA.
I tried pec training a couple times without getting much sucess. Doesnt that encoder disk sit inbetween the little light sensor ? Looks like it wont come out unless I first remove that.
@@richardbrekne5646 The light sensor does need to be removed first. There are 2 small screws holding that in.
Changing the bearings seems so extreme, wow
Hi Woody. Its the kind of thing I enjoy but can imagine its daunting to some. Makes a difference thats worthwhile but out of the box the EQ6 is a great mount
Glenn thanks so much for posting these. On PHD2 I have been using a x50 reading on my RMS numbers. Should I be using x100? I see some use x50 and others x100. Thanks!
Nevermind on that. I see that setting is just an overview of a short period of the graph. You really have me wanting to go through my EQ6R now. I am getting about .75 guiding right now when I can keep my cables from snagging.
Hi Gregory and thank you for you comment. That really doesn't matter or make any difference to your guiding. more of a personal preference of how you want to see the information
@@Astrobloke thanks Glenn. I am going to get some bearings ordered and start the tune on my EQ6R soon. Watching you and Joe has me ready to go and it appears as long as I take my time I should be just fine. You guys have a great weekend.
How do you do the RA ... you have to remove the encoder ?
If you are adjusting the float nut at all then yes the encoder needs to be removed as the disc will stop you accessing the float nut. 2 screws for the reader and 1 for the disc. They are simple to remove but you need a short crosshead screwdriver as standard length ones won’t let you get to the screws for the reader.
Ok thanks. Thats what I thought. Anything in particular I should look out for in phd guide assistant that would tell me I should do this ? We replaced all bearings and it seemed appropriatlt firmly tight yet free turning movement as we reassebled the worm drive.
Interesting make me nervous lol
And I don’t have the Mount yet…
Are you planning to get and Eq6?
@@Astrobloke yes the Ri potentially in a few months
Sounds to me like all these mounts come out the box faulty!
I do think the quality control is questionable. In fairness they travel all over the world and different climates will change it. I know a few with ones that have just been great out of the box and over a year later never had to adjust or change a thing. Others not so lucky
@@Astrobloke I can remember the Japanese Vixen mounts in the 1980s and 90s. They rarely had any issues that were reported. As you say, quality control is the issue. Its a lucky dip. QC is something that the Chinese mass producers have never been bothered about.