I mean, I won't hate Leffen for having rational, reasonable opinions that breed conversation and improvement in the smash community. The 90% of the time Leffen DOES say stupidass things that bring down the community, deride and instigate, ultimately horrible shit. I will definitely continue to hate Leffen for that no matter what anyone says. I will never acquiesce his egotistical, oppressive, absolute jerkass of a man tendencies whatsoever.
I do think it's funny that he said "I'll quit the game if the rules don't change". He is literally giving us an incentive to not implement an air time limit lol.
i dont agree, despite being really annoying i really do think he’s one of the most entertaining players to watch ever. oh well. there’s other foxes and i guess everybody’s gotta retire one day
@@everyonesaidmynamewasstupi3713 His gameplay is really entertaining, even his sheik is really cool. But for me the whining isn't worth it, there are for me indeed enough other cool players out there.
A problem with an air time limit would also mean that leffen could purposely camp, making the game longer and in turn, increasing the chances of a floaty reaching the air time limit
Thats the point. The reason leffen bitches about stuff like this is because he wants puff players to have to approach him instead of the other way around. He just wants free wins without having to actually work for it. Especially since fox already beats puff anyways he has no real excuse. Its just him being salty that he has to actually work for wins.
@@vwtdi1579 there should be an air time limit, a grab time limit, and ground limit. Actually you know what. Just combine all those and make a time limit. Boom saved melee
@@patrickburke2187 which makes Leffen’s proposal that much more ridiculous. He’s legit trying to implement a rule that would realistically only affect one or two people.
@Ironman yeah but Leffen saying there should be an airtime limit isn't a bad thing. It creates discussion, and videos like this. Even if it was a terrible time to bring it up, there is still discussion to be had about an airtime limit.
In the mind of leffen it probably makes sense thinking : "hbox's torturing me with how he plays, then i'll torture him outside of the game" in Leffen's dreamworld, hbox would have so many rules and condition to his play that he'd have to switch to a less "boring" character, quit the game or play puff as a low tier.
Leff is a master of catastrophizing. He sees things like Gambit's walljump bug in MVC2 and immediately comes to the conclusion that that's what Hbox is doing by not playing "hold stick to side" style.
@@salmon_wine I think a lot of people can feel like that, but most of us don't have the platform to be validated in our salt, that's probably the difference there, when I played melee I didn't like playing against defensive players and thoughts like "they're bad, they shouldnt play like that" came in some moments. Leffen doesn't have any reason to grow up because of his stan base that will give him validation when he's bitching, if leffen didn't have the platform and influence to say stuff like "i'll quit if if doesn't change" he would suck it up like a big boy and either adapt or leave. That's what popularity does tbh
Let's not forget Leffen was on the bandwagon to get Jiggly banned. At this point Hbox knows he is annoyed by it, so I think he does it to Leffen more than he does it to some. Leffen definitely takes things more seriously outside of the game than a lot of top tier players.
The ending was correct. What he wants is for Jiggly Puff to simply not exist as a viable character. There's no other reason for him to ask for an air time limit. Especially when he knows he's perfectly capable of beating H box.
I just really feel upset by the way leffen handles losses. I have seen him act well-meaning before when he loses, but it's like if he doesn't respect his opponent or if he thinks he should have won, he acts like they are their play style are the problem. it's really toxic, and hbox's response was incredibly mature and well said
The dude actively hates HBox. This isnt a secret, he's literally demonized him for a decade now. Leffen is one of the most toxic people in the community. He shit talks everyone and then gaslights people when they try to call him out on it.
Yep, it's incredibly toxic. And the fact that the community just entertains it and allows it to keep happening is truly disgusting. Takes away so much from celebrating the actual victor of the set/tournament when 90% of the content afterwards boils down to "iS lEfFeN rIgHt??1!?" Kinda embarrassing tbh
Literally, every complaint and nerf for puff boils down to Hbox. Puff is the most defensive character in the entire game. We have LGL, Pound Stalling, and now people want an airtime limit just because of Hbox. What about Fox McCloud, the most oppressive character in the entire game. Nah. At what point does this step into the realm of fuck puff? I've seen a lot of top players advocate for really aggressive nerfs on puff, and specifically puff. Would this still happen if Hbox wasn't one of the greatest players of all time and the only puff to crack the top 30? Probably not. My real problem with this debate is where is the line. Where does this become too targeted. LGL was supposed to be what finally nerfed puff. But this debate just keeps going. Everyone switches to fox to beat Hbox. It's a 60:40 matchup and yet Hbox still can win. At what point do people stop complaining and start playing? That's my question. LGL nerfs Marth, Sheik, Yoshi, and Pika as well. Airtime limit nerfs Peach and Samus too. This feels like a weird chase to pin down puff.
It all comes down to people hating to play against h-box puff and them trying to rationalize and change rules to fit their own pleasure. It's totally logical when you see hbox's playstyle, he's deliberately trying to frustrate, annoy, manipulate his opponent to win and in a competition you'd do everything to win. The hate comes from the fact that most people in this community aren't just trying to win, they're trying to win a certain way,using fun characters, the determination to just "win" is something not as present in melee as in other comp games or sports. That's why people hate hbox because he's the most competitive, determined player to win at any cost, he doesn't care about being flashy, looking good. We could even assume that his success in melee is directly a consequence of this common mentality, it could even explain why he's struggling to be on top in Ultimate because there's a lot more people like him that just want to win there, Hbox could have just found his nichein Melee there if people keep having this fun/flashy mentality. (personnally I like people trying to do sick stuff, I enjoy mid tier heroes etc) Until Leffen is really determined to beat hbox at his own game, nothing will change probably. Also if you laser camp puff until 50-60 you get your own rest, jap upsmash, uthrow upair, etc.. and if you even further like 150 you could kill with bair etc at any spot, If we look at the facts there's a clear, effective way to beat hbox(s puff that has been proven to work in many sets, Leffen isn't doing it right now.
Spot on. I'd love it if Hbox came out as the 'loud' one after matches. Get on mic and say that fox laser is simply too strong. It needs a nerf. What about fox upsmash killing at 50? Very silly! Only 5 up smashes total in a game or the fox auto loses? Why not? Fox is clearly the best character, and more and more players are switching to him. It's time to nerf him for sure.
@@imret9781 Well said. There was a game between Cody and Hbox that Hbox started grabbing the ledge and Cody just stayed far away from him and shooting lasers. Anyone knows that if you are a stock down but Puff is above 60%, it's a smash attack away from converting. I hope Leffen retires after 2023, he left in pools before the invitational, he isn't focusing on Melee, he's a bitch that creates drama to benefit himself and try to bring people down.
Cody DESTROYS Hbox in most games, he complains a lot but i've never seen him complaining about the ruleset after a loss, so fuck Leffen. I really enjoy watching Hungrybox, i really do. I think that we need more matches that aren't just Fox-Falco or Fox-Marth, so Slug, Hbox, Amsa, Llod, all of them bring more interesting matches to watch. I know people hate losing to Puff (i can't play with Puff online because people will instantly quit lol), but as a pro it's your job to study the character (or, more specifically, Hungrybox). Let's not forget that Fox is the fastest character in the game and can laser camp as well.
Although I do agree that leffen is complaining for no reason. He literally has destroyed hungrybox in the past few years. Since 2019. Leffen is up 7-2 on hbox including the recent set. With a total game count of 24-8 and leffen having 5 3-0's on him. So like, he knows how to destroy puff, he's just doing the classic leffen of complaining about his loss. Ibdw is also up 7-2 vs hbox in their last 9 sets but with a worse game count of 23-10.
@@rawr5085 yeah, iirc this was the first time in _two years_ that hbox had beaten leffen in a set. the first thing leffen does? goes and says he'll quit the game if an air time limit isn't enforced. hbox's response (where he also went up to the casting crew and asks to respond politely) was fantastic and shows that hbox really didn't deserve the shit he got.
Anyone who watched this game specifically, and isn't new to watching melee, could tell he definitely did not camp him out. There have been times in the past where he did, but this match he clearly didn't. His point might be valid overall for other matches but in this one, he didn't abuse air time or ledge grabs.
Imagine using the s tier character, perfect for any strat, defense, offense, whatever and complain your opponent used a defensive strat with burst of offense because his A/possible B tier character losses in brainless approaches
@@supahotwasabi what defines a tier? From my point of view: 1rst= S tier (fox) 2nd-5th= A tier (marth / falco/ shiek / ( possible c. Falcon / puff / peach / pikachu)) 6th to 9th or whatever = B tier ( (possible puff / c. Falcon / peach/ pikachu) / yoshi / possible gannon) So on, so on My reasoning goes by the idea of which characters have a higher chance of "carrying u " ( im aware that at the top 25 melee the skill is so high tier list are call to question its significance however we have seen fox yields higher chances of results, then marth falco and so on so on Modification because i forgot peach existed Mod because *Y E L L O W R A T*
I think if we’re going to put a limit on how long puff can stay in the air, we need a limit on how many times fox can move in the same direction as puff, just to make sure we aren’t putting rules on characters unfairly here.
@@gyroninjamodder I don’t think that should always be the case due to the fact that we all find different things fun. I enjoy watching Steve in ultimate but a lot if people don’t. Punishing players for playing the way they want to play in the name of “fun” is an extremely bad idea. You need to let multiple people play different ways or it becomes “everyone needs plays like this” or players leave.
@@olympian543 Players typically only play is those ways to exploit an unfair mechanic. If people who make the game less fun for others leave, then so be it. Everyone else can continue to have a better time without them.
@@gyroninjamodder but there is no unfair mechanic being exploited. Jigglypuff is playing with the moves and physics she was programmed to have. She’s not doing the sing ledge infinite, she’s not glitching you through the ground, hell I could argue wave dashing is exploiting the games mechanics more than jigglypuff does. There is nothing jigglypuffs are doing that could be considered a glitch or exploitation. She’s just playing the game more passively which is a perfectly fair strategy.
@@gyroninjamodder there’s no mechanic being exploited. Patience and waiting for an opening is literally puff’s game plan. Calling for an airtime limit is as silly as calling for a ban for puff.
Neat video. Appreciate tangible numbers on this and consideration for characters other than puff too. It baffles me that anyone even considers Leffen’s opinions as not just salt anymore. It’s been over 10 years he’s pointed to everything else as a problem to his losses. I’m no where near the level of play Leffen is, but damn such a bad sport and lack of competitors mind.
Yea, the consistently top 10 player in the world despite not living in America and constantly playing and becoming high level in other games doesn't have a competitor's mind lmao. He's a salty complainer after losing (which almost everyone is, just not to the same extent) but that doesn't mean he gives up afterwards like most salty scrubs do. But yea he's definitely salty and I think most ppl don't pay too much attention to his rants anymore
@@freddiekruger3339 getting good at games fast in his position isnt as impressive as literally anyone else in the world doing the same. He has Resources and time, seeing as how he’s literally just payed to go on ableist rants at this point by a major esports organization
@@freddiekruger3339 sometimes ppl are just naturally really skilled at something and that actually encourages them not to get a good mindset since they are good already. Someone who worked their way up from the bottom or has gone through rough patches with no excuses understand that sometimes you just do bad. Idk if leffen is capable of that without insane johns
@@freddiekruger3339 Leffen is so toxic that every other game community he's in has pretty much abandoned him. Nobody likes the dude in other game communities. I honestly dont know why the smash community still puts up with the dude. He's just insanely toxic and he isnt healthy for the community. Im honestly shocked he isnt perma banned yet with some of the shit he's pulled in the past.
Playing conservatively with a lead is one of the most basic competitive concepts that has existed since like the Dawn of civilization. Jigglypuff cannot grab you for an infinite amount of time. She can’t permanently freeze opponents. She cannot press down b and vanish as long as you mash an input. Ledge camping is a universal mechanic where few characters can take advantage of to avoid interaction with the majority of other characters. Limiting a moment option because leffen couldnt beat it playing like 2013 M2K… now THATS what i call refusing to interact.
It's worth noting that Leffen did indeed succeed in goading Hungrybox into approaching him. By taunting of course. We all know what happens when you taunt Hungrybox. Hold that L, Leffen.
I think an airtime limit is too subjective. You are no longer allowed to jump once the limit is reached? There should also be some kinda visual to know how much airtime you have left. Leffen (and the other retired Swedish player) use the "shot clock" argument every time they lose to Puff but you can at least see the shot clock in real time. Also, the other issue is that if the airtime is, say 4 minutes, then players will work around that and work around 3:30 minutes of air time and so on. It's too easy to come close to this rule without breaking it. Ledge grab limit is at least objectively measurable but a character existing in the air to create openings is just part of floaties kit. I think Leffen should just get better.
gonna copy my sentence from another reply: I think Leffen is just sick of melee and wants to play other fighting games tbh. The problem is that all the notoriety he has is within Melee, so his pride/ego make him stay, while at the same time he is not happy about the fact that there is still so much melee to be played.
@@salmon_wine i mean he says stupid stuff when hes playing other fighting games too, i think hes just a victim of his own natural talent. Hes too good to let himself be at fault in his mind
An air-time limit would only be bad for the game IMO. At top level someone like Leffen would absolutely just camp the floaties, because you KNOW there's an airtime limit, so the more YOU camp THEM, 1) the more they have to approach (which is inherently difficult for floaties in certain matchups so its a direct nerf to the archetype), 2) the closer they get to reaching the limit and potentially just losing by disqualification. If Puff was as dominant in melee as Meta Knight in brawl then maybe it would be a good thing overall, but when you just have 1 player that even kinda plays campy and abuses airtime (and I use abuse VERY lightly) it would cause way more harm than good.
No matter what character you play there’s a character you hate. I’m sure Hbox has been pretty sad how early uthrow uair kills. But that didn’t stop him and he didn’t complain about the rules when he lost.
idk how someone can see how iBDW plays the matchup and still thinks puff camping is a problem like yeah camping is a problem for peach or ICs, but you play FOX you can literally out camp puff
pretty funny to see how a fox main, the best character in the game and has a plus match up against puff, wants more rules against puff when there is already plenty of rules nerfing puff. it's not like hbox is the only consistent puff player that is in the top 30, no no, this is to help the spectators because it is boring to watch and totally not because I suck at the match up. Hbox succeeded to adapt with the rules that was put against him, so i don't see why he didn't deserve the win at all
With the Hax$ limit in place he can start working on the Hbox limit lol Jokes aside, there's no way he would have been so salty losing to anyone else in a four minute game. The fact he thinks he can take the mic and posture like that after that set, and that it'll read well to Melee fans, is incredible to me. It basically just looks like targeted, spiteful Johning.
All this would would do is completely kill puff as a character. Her entire useful move set relies on her being in the air (rest off of up throw, back air)
This video is basically the equivalent of looking at someone being held at gunpoint and confidently declaring that the gun doesn't matter unless they get shot.
It always seemed a bit disingenuous for the same crowd that says *waveshining and wavedashing* are legitimate parts of the game engine to regard "jumping to avoid attacks" as an unfair exploit…
@@UpgradeBob he has. Its like 7-2 his favor over the last few years or something iirc. This is literally just him being omega salty because he feels like he deserves to win and throws a fit like a child when he doesnt.
Here is the real answer lower that timer. In every other fighting game timeouts are hype. Not to mention that sets in smash take way to long. Lowering the timer even a little would help TOs keep events running on schedule.
Having an air rule would invariably lead to unsatisfying victories by camping to the line or legitimate victories taken away because of being just over that arbitrary line. In either case, it's silly that Leffen would propose rules that inhibit Melee's freedom of movement.
The fact that he insists on handicapping his competition rather then working to improve himself. Proves that he wouldn’t deserve to reach the top even if he had the chops to do so. “If it weren’t for all the things that made me lose, I would have won!”
I've heard a lot about air time limit only counting if the game goes to time-out. Would not have helped Leffen anyway but I think it's worth mentioning since I see this rule proposed a lot.
we all know water freezes when it's cold, but it's still cool to learn more about it. likewise, while we all know leffen is a salty overgrown child who's throwing a hissy fit, your breakdown is still appreciated.
I'm not much of a player myself, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I imagine that the point at 5:43 about an airtime limit changing the way Leffen plays would cause the reverse - ground stalling (yes, I realize it sounds stupid). Because the way I'm seeing it, Jigglypuff's ground movement seems to be bad enough to where it's going to be in the air naturally even if playing in a more "approaching" manner. So I feel that Leffen could effectively just employ the "run away and laser" strategy to the point where I see a couple different scenarios happening: - Hungrybox is forced to run up his own airtime just trying to approach in a non-reckless manner, causing him to potentially lose on the airtime limit for "stalling" - Hungrybox spends more time on the ground to avoid running up his own airtime, making him much easier to rack up damage on through lasers and his approaches become more vulnerable as a whole. Maybe I'm not familiar enough with the game, but I don't recall any other bans that prevent a character from just playing like the character (aside from Peach bomber stalling, I guess) and we've already got Pound Stalling banned. It's not like he's employing bugs/glitches or infinites to operate in this manner, he's just playing the character with its intended kit. It seems like you'd be better off just banning the character for being "too good", but even that just seems like a poorer solution than just playing better. Obviously it's easier saying all this from the sideline, but I only seem to see 2 players ever harping on these things to this point (being Leffen and iBDW). Everyone else seems like they just deal with it.
As someone who has played in comp for like almost 9 years, you’re spot on. People (sadly including me at one time) love to complain about puff because it’s a much slower paced game than other matchups if both players are playing right. At the end of the day though, the only thing you can do is get good.
"It seems like you'd be better off just banning the character for being "too good", but even that just seems like a poorer solution than just playing better." It's not even the case of Puff being "too good" though, if that was the case we'd see so much more Puff players in the top ranking/winning tournaments. It's just Leffen being salty.
@@NatePhan Oh I agree 100%, I'm just saying that I think the only logical decision here is either: - Ban puff for being "too good" - Don't ban puff because it's not "too good" Of which between the two, I think the latter is the correct decision. Partially banning pieces of a character's normal kit just doesn't make much sense to me
basically he's just malding lmao Edit: he just doesn't like fighting puff even tho there's literally one of them and wants to remove Juan from comps altogether
0:49 it’s funny because the reason jiggly puff is viable is because of her air physics. Airtime limits are specifically to attack characters like Peach and Puff, and only benefit grounded games. This would be like limiting wave dashing
Initial reaction to the thumbnail: No, nothing would have saved Leffen. Hbox was completely in his head. After the video: Huh Samus has long recoveries. Anyways, no, Hbox was in Leffen's head.
IIRC, wins awarded due to an opponents use of ledge grab stall require the game to end from running out of time - stalling relies on nipping a victory from timing your opponent out, so any argument for an air time stalling on a game ending just over 4 minutes isn't stalling to begin with. Hbox won lol.
Leffen is a big whiney baby and that's about it. The fact he ranted on and delayed grand finals to whine about the ruleset not having an airtime limit, when it wouldn't have even saved him in the first place just goes to show you how childish he is. Any Puff limitations, or ruleset changes players suggest are 100% just targeted towards Hbox. They just say "Puff this, puff that" to pretend they're not malding from getting rested in a supermajor. Pretty pathetic.
What a bizarre world where Peach/Samus gets backaired offstage into a bad position, while taking damage, and also is losing by another condition (into a rinse-repeat edgeguard looool)
What's frustrating about watching that set was that Hbox wasn't really camping. He was keeping away a bit, but really not to any significant degree. Especially the last game was weird. Leffen was technically the one doing the stalling, since he was down in stocks, but to be fair, he doesn't really have to approach either, since Fox's projectile can close the % gap if you're patient enough. But, for some reason Hbox started going in and almost immediately loses his two stock lead. I don't know if this was throwing to try and prove a point(''See what happens when I don't stay away?''), or to get into Leffen's head by basically saying he's so far ahead that he doesn't need to use his strongest strategy. Either way, I'm against an airtime limit. I'm open to have my opinion changed, but for now I just see it as a way to hurt all floaties and limiting it to just Puff also doesn't sit right with me. I actually wish people would commit to *camping harder* to test the limits of the current ruleset and help with developing stronger counterplay. But, few people actually seem willing to do that, so I really don't think a rule change is necessary.
Leffen goes 50/50 or better too. He has a massively winning record on HBox these last few years. This is literally just him acting like he deserves to win and crying when he gets beat like 1 time out of the last 5 sets or whatever.
Very interesting. HBox played very agro in that tourney in general. I’m skeptical of an air time limit in general bc it always seems so laser tolerated at the box but I can understand why some want it. Theoretically it would be good for the game. The problem is Melee lacks a ruling body to make such decisions and thus we’re just down to individuals throwing out opinions.
Thank you for attempting to improve the community ruleset. How is a mid tier character like fox supposed to beat jigglypuff without these new additions?
"Does leffen just want hbox to hold forward and lose?" Yes. Yes he does. Leffen and a lot of other smash players in history don't like how hbox plays, and don't like that they can't consistently beat him. They don't have issues with puff they have issues with someone like hbox using puff to beat them. I have TONS of respect for players like m2k and armada, they're some of my favorite players of all time, but they have similar problems with hbox and have said pretty much the same things leffen says about hbox and puff. They just don't want to lose to hbox.
The melee community is amazing, we have: a tsundere bearded god who chugs beer really fast a powerful god so hated that he got a crab thrown at him a salty villain who was supposed to mature ages ago an anime protagonist with glasses who destroyed the villan 6-0 while flexing he can do it with 3 different characters a chill egyptian king a really cool guy who proved everyone to not sleep on his red dinosaur friend and many more
This video shows exactly what ludwig was talking about to leffen against air time limits. Because it needs to be consistent to the entire cast. You can't just punish floaties for being floaties and playing their optimal way because it's not exactly the way fox plays. You need to have rules that allow players and character to play the way that works for them. I'm glad you brought up samus, no one is complaining about samus stalling and breaking air time limits for playing the way samus plays. And punishing stall tech because it's in the air, yet not punishing fox for laser camping on the ground is entirely one sided. Leffen is just salty
I only leffen asking for an air time limit as an extension of him unironically trying to convince the community that a character with only 2 good moves is stronger than fox.
Since I can’t win, I believe that the rules should be specifically changed to benefit me. Rule 1: Only people named Anon Ymous can win Rule 2: Only People not named Anon Ymous automatically lose
![อยู่คนเดียวกับเขา - ส้ม มารี (Zom Marie) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/gq1cWAIQDLg/mqdefault.jpg)
Yo just a reminder to keep it civil this ain't a leffen hate area
I respectfully hate leffen
It’s an effen hate area since he dropped his L
I mean, I won't hate Leffen for having rational, reasonable opinions that breed conversation and improvement in the smash community.
The 90% of the time Leffen DOES say stupidass things that bring down the community, deride and instigate, ultimately horrible shit. I will definitely continue to hate Leffen for that no matter what anyone says. I will never acquiesce his egotistical, oppressive, absolute jerkass of a man tendencies whatsoever.
But I want to
cringe
I don’t think the community needs an airtime limit. It definitely needs a Leffen saying things limit.
everything leffen says basically means "this players playstyle is annoying and i dislike it."
Creating discussion and discourse is p healthy. This video is super useful, nothing wrong with starting conversation.
@@PapaBingles but leffen is just being a baby, it’s like when you whoop your little brother in Mario kart and he goes “mooom he’s cheating 😭”
@@PapaBingles it’s just a goof dude..
Community needs a stop getting mad at salty melee pro player talking shit limit
I do think it's funny that he said "I'll quit the game if the rules don't change".
He is literally giving us an incentive to not implement an air time limit lol.
💯
i dont agree, despite being really annoying i really do think he’s one of the most entertaining players to watch ever. oh well. there’s other foxes and i guess everybody’s gotta retire one day
@@everyonesaidmynamewasstupi3713 His gameplay is really entertaining, even his sheik is really cool. But for me the whining isn't worth it, there are for me indeed enough other cool players out there.
th-cam.com/video/xU6HkfjkmzI/w-d-xo.html
@@everyonesaidmynamewasstupi3713
@@TetraBui yeah i’ve seen that, i know about all that, i’m just talking strictly gameplay he’s a hype player
A problem with an air time limit would also mean that leffen could purposely camp, making the game longer and in turn, increasing the chances of a floaty reaching the air time limit
GROUND TIME LIMIT!
Thats the point. The reason leffen bitches about stuff like this is because he wants puff players to have to approach him instead of the other way around.
He just wants free wins without having to actually work for it. Especially since fox already beats puff anyways he has no real excuse. Its just him being salty that he has to actually work for wins.
@@eragon78 masterful
@@vwtdi1579 there should be an air time limit, a grab time limit, and ground limit. Actually you know what. Just combine all those and make a time limit.
Boom saved melee
@@JBLZFTW lmao bro came full circle
"Does he just want HBox to hold forward against a character like Fox and just lose?"
Yes
As Samus, I think I’ve had more foxes run away and laser for over 5 mins than hbox floating in the air for 5 or more
Seriously. Also, Leffen is the perfect example of that kind of Fox. Dude laser camps all the time.
Of course you’ve had more foxes camp you than you’ve been camped by Hbox.
He is only one man.
@@patrickburke2187 which makes Leffen’s proposal that much more ridiculous. He’s legit trying to implement a rule that would realistically only affect one or two people.
Same bru
That's it we need a laser limit lmaoooo
Imagining having a airtime limit on a character that is supposed to be in the air 😄
Like"Nooooo! How dare you to play a character the way it was meant to?!"
I think street fighter should have a limit to the number of times you punch
He lose that’s it
@@harrylane4 Imagine giving zoners a zoning limit lmfao... If you've zoned a enemy for longer than 1/4 of the round, you have to let them get in lmfao
@@majintora yeah just like that but if you do 1 too many projectiles the enemy just wins by default.
"Leffen has matured guys give him a chance"
Everyone john's at one point or another
The only people who somehow manage to be bigger clowns than Leffen himself are Leffen fans/apologists
@@FabschOblivion669 Totally
He shouldn't have gotten a second chance.
@Ironman yeah but Leffen saying there should be an airtime limit isn't a bad thing. It creates discussion, and videos like this. Even if it was a terrible time to bring it up, there is still discussion to be had about an airtime limit.
In the mind of leffen it probably makes sense thinking : "hbox's torturing me with how he plays, then i'll torture him outside of the game" in Leffen's dreamworld, hbox would have so many rules and condition to his play that he'd have to switch to a less "boring" character, quit the game or play puff as a low tier.
Leff is a master of catastrophizing. He sees things like Gambit's walljump bug in MVC2 and immediately comes to the conclusion that that's what Hbox is doing by not playing "hold stick to side" style.
@@salmon_wine I think a lot of people can feel like that, but most of us don't have the platform to be validated in our salt, that's probably the difference there, when I played melee I didn't like playing against defensive players and thoughts like "they're bad, they shouldnt play like that" came in some moments. Leffen doesn't have any reason to grow up because of his stan base that will give him validation when he's bitching, if leffen didn't have the platform and influence to say stuff like "i'll quit if if doesn't change" he would suck it up like a big boy and either adapt or leave. That's what popularity does tbh
That sounds like leffen
Let's not forget Leffen was on the bandwagon to get Jiggly banned. At this point Hbox knows he is annoyed by it, so I think he does it to Leffen more than he does it to some. Leffen definitely takes things more seriously outside of the game than a lot of top tier players.
@@xxzel4732 leffen is a little bitch and there's no excuse for this.
The ending was correct. What he wants is for Jiggly Puff to simply not exist as a viable character. There's no other reason for him to ask for an air time limit.
Especially when he knows he's perfectly capable of beating H box.
I just really feel upset by the way leffen handles losses. I have seen him act well-meaning before when he loses, but it's like if he doesn't respect his opponent or if he thinks he should have won, he acts like they are their play style are the problem.
it's really toxic, and hbox's response was incredibly mature and well said
The dude actively hates HBox. This isnt a secret, he's literally demonized him for a decade now.
Leffen is one of the most toxic people in the community. He shit talks everyone and then gaslights people when they try to call him out on it.
Yep, it's incredibly toxic. And the fact that the community just entertains it and allows it to keep happening is truly disgusting. Takes away so much from celebrating the actual victor of the set/tournament when 90% of the content afterwards boils down to "iS lEfFeN rIgHt??1!?" Kinda embarrassing tbh
@@343Films embarrassing is right.
Literally, every complaint and nerf for puff boils down to Hbox. Puff is the most defensive character in the entire game. We have LGL, Pound Stalling, and now people want an airtime limit just because of Hbox. What about Fox McCloud, the most oppressive character in the entire game. Nah. At what point does this step into the realm of fuck puff? I've seen a lot of top players advocate for really aggressive nerfs on puff, and specifically puff. Would this still happen if Hbox wasn't one of the greatest players of all time and the only puff to crack the top 30? Probably not.
My real problem with this debate is where is the line. Where does this become too targeted. LGL was supposed to be what finally nerfed puff. But this debate just keeps going. Everyone switches to fox to beat Hbox. It's a 60:40 matchup and yet Hbox still can win. At what point do people stop complaining and start playing? That's my question. LGL nerfs Marth, Sheik, Yoshi, and Pika as well. Airtime limit nerfs Peach and Samus too. This feels like a weird chase to pin down puff.
Fox can also camp nearly the whole cast just as well as puff
I propose an attack limit for fox he can only do 30 individual attack if he does more the player loose the game
It all comes down to people hating to play against h-box puff and them trying to rationalize and change rules to fit their own pleasure. It's totally logical when you see hbox's playstyle, he's deliberately trying to frustrate, annoy, manipulate his opponent to win and in a competition you'd do everything to win. The hate comes from the fact that most people in this community aren't just trying to win, they're trying to win a certain way,using fun characters, the determination to just "win" is something not as present in melee as in other comp games or sports.
That's why people hate hbox because he's the most competitive, determined player to win at any cost, he doesn't care about being flashy, looking good. We could even assume that his success in melee is directly a consequence of this common mentality, it could even explain why he's struggling to be on top in Ultimate because there's a lot more people like him that just want to win there, Hbox could have just found his nichein Melee there if people keep having this fun/flashy mentality. (personnally I like people trying to do sick stuff, I enjoy mid tier heroes etc)
Until Leffen is really determined to beat hbox at his own game, nothing will change probably. Also if you laser camp puff until 50-60 you get your own rest, jap upsmash, uthrow upair, etc.. and if you even further like 150 you could kill with bair etc at any spot, If we look at the facts there's a clear, effective way to beat hbox(s puff that has been proven to work in many sets, Leffen isn't doing it right now.
Spot on. I'd love it if Hbox came out as the 'loud' one after matches. Get on mic and say that fox laser is simply too strong. It needs a nerf. What about fox upsmash killing at 50? Very silly! Only 5 up smashes total in a game or the fox auto loses? Why not? Fox is clearly the best character, and more and more players are switching to him. It's time to nerf him for sure.
@@imret9781 Well said. There was a game between Cody and Hbox that Hbox started grabbing the ledge and Cody just stayed far away from him and shooting lasers. Anyone knows that if you are a stock down but Puff is above 60%, it's a smash attack away from converting. I hope Leffen retires after 2023, he left in pools before the invitational, he isn't focusing on Melee, he's a bitch that creates drama to benefit himself and try to bring people down.
Cody DESTROYS Hbox in most games, he complains a lot but i've never seen him complaining about the ruleset after a loss, so fuck Leffen.
I really enjoy watching Hungrybox, i really do. I think that we need more matches that aren't just Fox-Falco or Fox-Marth, so Slug, Hbox, Amsa, Llod, all of them bring more interesting matches to watch. I know people hate losing to Puff (i can't play with Puff online because people will instantly quit lol), but as a pro it's your job to study the character (or, more specifically, Hungrybox). Let's not forget that Fox is the fastest character in the game and can laser camp as well.
Although I do agree that leffen is complaining for no reason. He literally has destroyed hungrybox in the past few years. Since 2019. Leffen is up 7-2 on hbox including the recent set. With a total game count of 24-8 and leffen having 5 3-0's on him. So like, he knows how to destroy puff, he's just doing the classic leffen of complaining about his loss. Ibdw is also up 7-2 vs hbox in their last 9 sets but with a worse game count of 23-10.
captain falcon says hello
@@rawr5085 yeah, iirc this was the first time in _two years_ that hbox had beaten leffen in a set. the first thing leffen does? goes and says he'll quit the game if an air time limit isn't enforced. hbox's response (where he also went up to the casting crew and asks to respond politely) was fantastic and shows that hbox really didn't deserve the shit he got.
Yeah, Leffen is always salty.
Really well-edited video, keep it up!
I'd say it's beyond "salty." Leffen is a whiny brat who talks endless whit whenever he's winning and then mopes and cries the second he isn't.
@@343Films Yep. Been goin' on for years.
Anyone who watched this game specifically, and isn't new to watching melee, could tell he definitely did not camp him out. There have been times in the past where he did, but this match he clearly didn't. His point might be valid overall for other matches but in this one, he didn't abuse air time or ledge grabs.
Imagine using the s tier character, perfect for any strat, defense, offense, whatever and complain your opponent used a defensive strat with burst of offense because his A/possible B tier character losses in brainless approaches
@@victordiaz7353 definitely not B lmfao but yea for sure
@@supahotwasabi to be fair there’s not many jigglypuffs that are contenders to win supermajors, I think puff is just super perfect for hbox
@@Silverado-pq6xe shes not lower than a tier though
@@supahotwasabi what defines a tier?
From my point of view:
1rst= S tier (fox)
2nd-5th= A tier (marth / falco/ shiek / ( possible c. Falcon / puff / peach / pikachu))
6th to 9th or whatever = B tier ( (possible puff / c. Falcon / peach/ pikachu) / yoshi / possible gannon)
So on, so on
My reasoning goes by the idea of which characters have a higher chance of "carrying u " ( im aware that at the top 25 melee the skill is so high tier list are call to question its significance however we have seen fox yields higher chances of results, then marth falco and so on so on
Modification because i forgot peach existed
Mod because *Y E L L O W R A T*
We need a leffen in the smash community limit
That would imply that there is more than one Leffen in this world, which is a horrifying thought.
how about leffen fgc limit.
I think if we’re going to put a limit on how long puff can stay in the air, we need a limit on how many times fox can move in the same direction as puff, just to make sure we aren’t putting rules on characters unfairly here.
Rules should be about making the game more fun as opposed to making the game more fair.
@@gyroninjamodder I don’t think that should always be the case due to the fact that we all find different things fun. I enjoy watching Steve in ultimate but a lot if people don’t. Punishing players for playing the way they want to play in the name of “fun” is an extremely bad idea. You need to let multiple people play different ways or it becomes “everyone needs plays like this” or players leave.
@@olympian543 Players typically only play is those ways to exploit an unfair mechanic. If people who make the game less fun for others leave, then so be it. Everyone else can continue to have a better time without them.
@@gyroninjamodder but there is no unfair mechanic being exploited. Jigglypuff is playing with the moves and physics she was programmed to have. She’s not doing the sing ledge infinite, she’s not glitching you through the ground, hell I could argue wave dashing is exploiting the games mechanics more than jigglypuff does. There is nothing jigglypuffs are doing that could be considered a glitch or exploitation. She’s just playing the game more passively which is a perfectly fair strategy.
@@gyroninjamodder there’s no mechanic being exploited. Patience and waiting for an opening is literally puff’s game plan.
Calling for an airtime limit is as silly as calling for a ban for puff.
Neat video. Appreciate tangible numbers on this and consideration for characters other than puff too.
It baffles me that anyone even considers Leffen’s opinions as not just salt anymore. It’s been over 10 years he’s pointed to everything else as a problem to his losses. I’m no where near the level of play Leffen is, but damn such a bad sport and lack of competitors mind.
I know he was so clearly salty here and during the set and people are seriously considering what he says lol
Yea, the consistently top 10 player in the world despite not living in America and constantly playing and becoming high level in other games doesn't have a competitor's mind lmao. He's a salty complainer after losing (which almost everyone is, just not to the same extent) but that doesn't mean he gives up afterwards like most salty scrubs do. But yea he's definitely salty and I think most ppl don't pay too much attention to his rants anymore
@@freddiekruger3339 getting good at games fast in his position isnt as impressive as literally anyone else in the world doing the same. He has Resources and time, seeing as how he’s literally just payed to go on ableist rants at this point by a major esports organization
@@freddiekruger3339 sometimes ppl are just naturally really skilled at something and that actually encourages them not to get a good mindset since they are good already. Someone who worked their way up from the bottom or has gone through rough patches with no excuses understand that sometimes you just do bad. Idk if leffen is capable of that without insane johns
@@freddiekruger3339 Leffen is so toxic that every other game community he's in has pretty much abandoned him. Nobody likes the dude in other game communities.
I honestly dont know why the smash community still puts up with the dude. He's just insanely toxic and he isnt healthy for the community. Im honestly shocked he isnt perma banned yet with some of the shit he's pulled in the past.
Playing conservatively with a lead is one of the most basic competitive concepts that has existed since like the Dawn of civilization.
Jigglypuff cannot grab you for an infinite amount of time. She can’t permanently freeze opponents. She cannot press down b and vanish as long as you mash an input.
Ledge camping is a universal mechanic where few characters can take advantage of to avoid interaction with the majority of other characters.
Limiting a moment option because leffen couldnt beat it playing like 2013 M2K… now THATS what i call refusing to interact.
It's worth noting that Leffen did indeed succeed in goading Hungrybox into approaching him.
By taunting of course.
We all know what happens when you taunt Hungrybox.
Hold that L, Leffen.
Down Air Rest?
@@vyor8837 not true in melee :(
@@axletman3394 It isn't true in *any* game.
It's still hype as shit when you pull it off.
@@vyor8837 isn't it (mostly) true in ultimate?
@@axletman3394 nope!
Also Leffen:
Runs to the other side of the stage and spams laser
I think an airtime limit is too subjective. You are no longer allowed to jump once the limit is reached? There should also be some kinda visual to know how much airtime you have left. Leffen (and the other retired Swedish player) use the "shot clock" argument every time they lose to Puff but you can at least see the shot clock in real time.
Also, the other issue is that if the airtime is, say 4 minutes, then players will work around that and work around 3:30 minutes of air time and so on. It's too easy to come close to this rule without breaking it. Ledge grab limit is at least objectively measurable but a character existing in the air to create openings is just part of floaties kit. I think Leffen should just get better.
gonna copy my sentence from another reply:
I think Leffen is just sick of melee and wants to play other fighting games tbh. The problem is that all the notoriety he has is within Melee, so his pride/ego make him stay, while at the same time he is not happy about the fact that there is still so much melee to be played.
@@salmon_wine i mean he says stupid stuff when hes playing other fighting games too, i think hes just a victim of his own natural talent. Hes too good to let himself be at fault in his mind
@@leaffinite2001 Complaining about his own character when he plays Strive Zato is an example. Clown to the end.
@@salmon_wine Bye Leffen, enjoy the games you like.
@@salmon_wine I hear he's been banned in other FGC crowds, so that might be stopping him too.
"Can we change the rules" the guy who ran away and shot lasers when hbox approached him
An air-time limit would only be bad for the game IMO. At top level someone like Leffen would absolutely just camp the floaties, because you KNOW there's an airtime limit, so the more YOU camp THEM, 1) the more they have to approach (which is inherently difficult for floaties in certain matchups so its a direct nerf to the archetype), 2) the closer they get to reaching the limit and potentially just losing by disqualification. If Puff was as dominant in melee as Meta Knight in brawl then maybe it would be a good thing overall, but when you just have 1 player that even kinda plays campy and abuses airtime (and I use abuse VERY lightly) it would cause way more harm than good.
Shoutouts to the God who made a script just for this.
Great video btw
No matter what character you play there’s a character you hate.
I’m sure Hbox has been pretty sad how early uthrow uair kills. But that didn’t stop him and he didn’t complain about the rules when he lost.
Hbox got the personal match up to such a good degree that leff can't help but to cry at this point lol.
idk how someone can see how iBDW plays the matchup and still thinks puff camping is a problem
like yeah camping is a problem for peach or ICs, but you play FOX you can literally out camp puff
"I need a ruleset change because I lost one set against hungrybox in 2 years" go back to Twitter leffen
pretty funny to see how a fox main, the best character in the game and has a plus match up against puff, wants more rules against puff when there is already plenty of rules nerfing puff.
it's not like hbox is the only consistent puff player that is in the top 30, no no, this is to help the spectators because it is boring to watch and totally not because I suck at the match up. Hbox succeeded to adapt with the rules that was put against him, so i don't see why he didn't deserve the win at all
With the Hax$ limit in place he can start working on the Hbox limit lol
Jokes aside, there's no way he would have been so salty losing to anyone else in a four minute game. The fact he thinks he can take the mic and posture like that after that set, and that it'll read well to Melee fans, is incredible to me. It basically just looks like targeted, spiteful Johning.
All this would would do is completely kill puff as a character. Her entire useful move set relies on her being in the air (rest off of up throw, back air)
Yes I am aware he goes over this scenario in the video
There's a difference between adults who decide to play a children's game, and manchildren who refuse to grow up.
spitting bars rn
air time limit of 9 minutes seems fine 👍
Leffen got outplayed.
Sick bud glad to see more melee content! Keep it up push the content meta far!
Holy shit I loved the stalling lore bit
great video! in conclusion Leffen was blinded by the salt
Genuinely a really well made video. Glad I found you
Any rule that specifically screws over Leffen, I'm %100 fine with.
Quality video and editing, good stuff. Hope to see more. Also congrats on 1k, i got it to 999 just now lol
Leffen would ban HBox if he could
This video is basically the equivalent of looking at someone being held at gunpoint and confidently declaring that the gun doesn't matter unless they get shot.
Air time limit has to be the biggest John and stupid excuse for a rule
It always seemed a bit disingenuous for the same crowd that says *waveshining and wavedashing* are legitimate parts of the game engine to regard "jumping to avoid attacks" as an unfair exploit…
I think we need a leffen limit
Leffen just can't accept the fact that he has a Mental block vs puff and can't counter it
Exactly. Plenty of of other players have already gotten over it.
hasn't he had a winning streak on hbox till that match?
@@UpgradeBob he has. Its like 7-2 his favor over the last few years or something iirc.
This is literally just him being omega salty because he feels like he deserves to win and throws a fit like a child when he doesnt.
@@eragon78 he’s got a long history of this lmao. He literally quit tekken because too many people were better than him
@@harrylane4 I remember when that happened. Frankly, the dude's a little bitch
That is the most beautiful thumbnail I've ever laid my eyes upon thank you
i read "airtime limit" and "leffen" and thought people wanted to limit the amount of time he has on camera or something lmao
You BUSTED that 1k goal! Gratz!
I think Leffen has bigger things to worry about than getting that airtime limit implemented LMAO
Here is the real answer lower that timer. In every other fighting game timeouts are hype. Not to mention that sets in smash take way to long. Lowering the timer even a little would help TOs keep events running on schedule.
Congrats on this pushing you to almost 2k!
Morcou editing always on point
Having an air rule would invariably lead to unsatisfying victories by camping to the line or legitimate victories taken away because of being just over that arbitrary line. In either case, it's silly that Leffen would propose rules that inhibit Melee's freedom of movement.
The fact that he insists on handicapping his competition rather then working to improve himself. Proves that he wouldn’t deserve to reach the top even if he had the chops to do so.
“If it weren’t for all the things that made me lose, I would have won!”
The classic Leffen john "I'll do anything I can to destroy Hbox' capacity to compete"
I've heard a lot about air time limit only counting if the game goes to time-out. Would not have helped Leffen anyway but I think it's worth mentioning since I see this rule proposed a lot.
that's at least not impossible for the floaty character player to play around. Still stupid, but not blatantly bullshit.
imagine hungry box saying fox needs a shine or lazer limit after losing.
You know what would’ve saved Leffen? Playing better than Hungrybox.
we all know water freezes when it's cold, but it's still cool to learn more about it. likewise, while we all know leffen is a salty overgrown child who's throwing a hissy fit, your breakdown is still appreciated.
I'm not much of a player myself, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I imagine that the point at 5:43 about an airtime limit changing the way Leffen plays would cause the reverse - ground stalling (yes, I realize it sounds stupid).
Because the way I'm seeing it, Jigglypuff's ground movement seems to be bad enough to where it's going to be in the air naturally even if playing in a more "approaching" manner. So I feel that Leffen could effectively just employ the "run away and laser" strategy to the point where I see a couple different scenarios happening:
- Hungrybox is forced to run up his own airtime just trying to approach in a non-reckless manner, causing him to potentially lose on the airtime limit for "stalling"
- Hungrybox spends more time on the ground to avoid running up his own airtime, making him much easier to rack up damage on through lasers and his approaches become more vulnerable as a whole.
Maybe I'm not familiar enough with the game, but I don't recall any other bans that prevent a character from just playing like the character (aside from Peach bomber stalling, I guess) and we've already got Pound Stalling banned. It's not like he's employing bugs/glitches or infinites to operate in this manner, he's just playing the character with its intended kit.
It seems like you'd be better off just banning the character for being "too good", but even that just seems like a poorer solution than just playing better. Obviously it's easier saying all this from the sideline, but I only seem to see 2 players ever harping on these things to this point (being Leffen and iBDW). Everyone else seems like they just deal with it.
As someone who has played in comp for like almost 9 years, you’re spot on.
People (sadly including me at one time) love to complain about puff because it’s a much slower paced game than other matchups if both players are playing right.
At the end of the day though, the only thing you can do is get good.
"It seems like you'd be better off just banning the character for being "too good", but even that just seems like a poorer solution than just playing better."
It's not even the case of Puff being "too good" though, if that was the case we'd see so much more Puff players in the top ranking/winning tournaments. It's just Leffen being salty.
@@NatePhan Oh I agree 100%, I'm just saying that I think the only logical decision here is either:
- Ban puff for being "too good"
- Don't ban puff because it's not "too good"
Of which between the two, I think the latter is the correct decision.
Partially banning pieces of a character's normal kit just doesn't make much sense to me
As much as he wants to keep people out of the air and on the ground, he definitely isnt down to earth
Not me laughing hysterically at just the title
basically he's just malding lmao
Edit: he just doesn't like fighting puff even tho there's literally one of them and wants to remove Juan from comps altogether
0:49 it’s funny because the reason jiggly puff is viable is because of her air physics. Airtime limits are specifically to attack characters like Peach and Puff, and only benefit grounded games. This would be like limiting wave dashing
Airtime limit on a character that is supposed to be a ballon. Lmao
"Air Time Limit" is the poor man's John.
Basically what leffen is trying to say is “ban jiggs”
Initial reaction to the thumbnail:
No, nothing would have saved Leffen. Hbox was completely in his head.
After the video: Huh Samus has long recoveries.
Anyways, no, Hbox was in Leffen's head.
Leffen can't kill hungrybox like the others can, so he cries.
IIRC, wins awarded due to an opponents use of ledge grab stall require the game to end from running out of time -
stalling relies on nipping a victory from timing your opponent out, so any argument for an air time stalling on a game ending just over 4 minutes isn't stalling to begin with.
Hbox won lol.
Leffen is a big whiney baby and that's about it. The fact he ranted on and delayed grand finals to whine about the ruleset not having an airtime limit, when it wouldn't have even saved him in the first place just goes to show you how childish he is.
Any Puff limitations, or ruleset changes players suggest are 100% just targeted towards Hbox. They just say "Puff this, puff that" to pretend they're not malding from getting rested in a supermajor. Pretty pathetic.
What a bizarre world where Peach/Samus gets backaired offstage into a bad position, while taking damage, and also is losing by another condition (into a rinse-repeat edgeguard looool)
i can tell that you're gonna be big soon
Leffen practically wants Melee to only have spacies at this point, man has proposed multiple rules now just to nerf floaties
What's frustrating about watching that set was that Hbox wasn't really camping. He was keeping away a bit, but really not to any significant degree. Especially the last game was weird.
Leffen was technically the one doing the stalling, since he was down in stocks, but to be fair, he doesn't really have to approach either, since Fox's projectile can close the % gap if you're patient enough.
But, for some reason Hbox started going in and almost immediately loses his two stock lead. I don't know if this was throwing to try and prove a point(''See what happens when I don't stay away?''), or to get into Leffen's head by basically saying he's so far ahead that he doesn't need to use his strongest strategy.
Either way, I'm against an airtime limit. I'm open to have my opinion changed, but for now I just see it as a way to hurt all floaties and limiting it to just Puff also doesn't sit right with me.
I actually wish people would commit to *camping harder* to test the limits of the current ruleset and help with developing stronger counterplay.
But, few people actually seem willing to do that, so I really don't think a rule change is necessary.
Literally insane how one fox complains about hbox and it gets so much traction meanwhile three other foxes (plup ibdw mango) go 50/50 or better
Leffen goes 50/50 or better too. He has a massively winning record on HBox these last few years.
This is literally just him acting like he deserves to win and crying when he gets beat like 1 time out of the last 5 sets or whatever.
If we have an air time limit then let's have a laser limit.
Very interesting. HBox played very agro in that tourney in general.
I’m skeptical of an air time limit in general bc it always seems so laser tolerated at the box but I can understand why some want it. Theoretically it would be good for the game. The problem is Melee lacks a ruling body to make such decisions and thus we’re just down to individuals throwing out opinions.
Lmao thumbnail has me dying
Thank you for attempting to improve the community ruleset. How is a mid tier character like fox supposed to beat jigglypuff without these new additions?
"Air time limit" yeah let's also make a "shine limit" let's see if leffen likes that one
Holy shit the quality of your videos does not match your sub count. (In a good way) Legit one of my fav melee TH-camrs
"Does leffen just want hbox to hold forward and lose?" Yes. Yes he does. Leffen and a lot of other smash players in history don't like how hbox plays, and don't like that they can't consistently beat him. They don't have issues with puff they have issues with someone like hbox using puff to beat them.
I have TONS of respect for players like m2k and armada, they're some of my favorite players of all time, but they have similar problems with hbox and have said pretty much the same things leffen says about hbox and puff.
They just don't want to lose to hbox.
Congrats on 1k
The melee community is amazing, we have:
a tsundere bearded god who chugs beer really fast
a powerful god so hated that he got a crab thrown at him
a salty villain who was supposed to mature ages ago
an anime protagonist with glasses who destroyed the villan 6-0 while flexing he can do it with 3 different characters
a chill egyptian king
a really cool guy who proved everyone to not sleep on his red dinosaur friend
and many more
aMSa will forever have my admiration. What a legend.
your channel is great and the quality ais almost as good as 100-1000 thousand sub channels
ya tbh I'd say it's almost as good as 1384 subs .... maybe even 1385. 1386 would be pushing it tho
"does he just want Hbox to hold forward against a character like Fox and just lose?"
Yes that's exactly what he wants.
This video shows exactly what ludwig was talking about to leffen against air time limits.
Because it needs to be consistent to the entire cast. You can't just punish floaties for being floaties and playing their optimal way because it's not exactly the way fox plays. You need to have rules that allow players and character to play the way that works for them.
I'm glad you brought up samus, no one is complaining about samus stalling and breaking air time limits for playing the way samus plays. And punishing stall tech because it's in the air, yet not punishing fox for laser camping on the ground is entirely one sided. Leffen is just salty
Dark triad behavior
Queue mean girls quote “The limit does not exist!”
Leffen is if Low Tier God was actually a good player
Did they really have to change the look… again… youtube please. Great video btw 🎃
This thumbnail is insane tho
I only leffen asking for an air time limit as an extension of him unironically trying to convince the community that a character with only 2 good moves is stronger than fox.
leffen just wants an hbox limit of 0 hboxes per tournament
Ok if theres an airtime limit I want a standing, walking and running limit as well. Gotta keep stuff versatile now right? :P
Ah yes, the Nintendo all time classic: Super Airtime Limit Brothers Melee
Since I can’t win, I believe that the rules should be specifically changed to benefit me.
Rule 1:
Only people named Anon Ymous can win
Rule 2:
Only
People not named Anon Ymous automatically lose
S tier thumbnail