MiSTer FPGA DE-10 - FPGA Emulation vs Final Burn Neo - Neo Geo Showdown!
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.ย. 2024
- It's the Neo Geo vs Final Burn Neo showdown on the MiSTer FPGA! What is "better" for Neo Geo emulation...Final Burn Neo, MiSTer FPGA...or either?
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I asked, you answered...and I try to listen :) Of all the requests for new content on the channel one of the most frequently asked for videos is a series on the Terasic DE-10 Nano MiSTer FPGA hardware...so here it is! It's a retro gaming showdown!
On this episode of our MiSTer series we will be directly comparing the MiSTer FPGA project vs software emulation; I will be using Final Burn Neo to compare the performance of the SNK Neo Geo on MiSTer vs software emulation. I absolutely love the Neo Geo so I may be extra picky about this one! lol...but it's a real retrogaming gen of a system!
Questions? Comments? Just leave them below and I will do my best to answer each and every one of them!
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VGE
The answer to what the source for Real Bout Fatal Fury Special was....FB NEO!
I knew it. Never liked the raspis. MiSTer is my sh*t.
@@ninetendopesaitama2107 Lol he said FB Neo. FB Neo is a PC emulator. Did you even watch the vid?
@@skins4thewin raspis are using also Software emulation. PC Software emulation has the same flaws as raspi Software emulation. If you dont get it.lol
I think achilles heel for neogeo sw emu is sound. I find much better experience in Mister and analogue pocket
Yes the pitch in software can be off. But a lot of that’s been corrected in recent years
I remember when Final Burn was just a little emulator for Sega System 16 and CPS1/2 games being worked on by one dude. Pretty impressive how far it's come.
Yeah it’s encyclopedic now
Dayvee, loved him dearly 🤟 justify or delete!
Yup, that's how I remember it. I didn't realize it had grown to become a MAME alternative.
Love these comparison videos. For those who prefer a softer image, MiSTer video filters also allow softening of the image to great effect with various levels dependent on taste. Sharp pixels aren't the only option for MiSTer.
Very true. I was just interested in the fact that Final Burn Neo was softer “out of the box”
You should configure similar settings for both device/emulator for a better comparison. It would have made sense to disable bilinear filtering in FBNeo (or enable it on fpga). As for the sound, how it's supposed to be is very subjective, and that's another thing you can tune through various settings in FBNeo anyway, personally i consider our lowpass filter should be enabled at all time : it makes the sound more rich/bassy, which is closer to how real arcade cabinets usually sounded. Anyway, it's nice to confirm the timings match with fpga (i'm actually a FBNeo dev).
I did in some spots configure the image and mentioned it :) in others I let the out of the box differences show. It’s funny, on a game like Matrimelee I like the softer default image of FB Neo :)
Awesome job on FB Neo. Flawless execution IMO
Thank you for all your development on FB Neo. I love using it.
Audio is actually one of the toughest things to get right. It's actually one of the reasons why I've always been so impressed with the NES core in the RetroUSB AVS as I find it to be even more accurate to original hardware than the Analogue NT Mini.
It's been reported that Kevtris aka the developer of the NT Mini cores took personal liberties w the audio filters of his cores based on his own personal preference which makes no sense whatsoever to me.
It'd be one thing if he was doing these cores for just himself and nobody else, but they are being sold to thousands of other ppl. So why would you not then choose to make it accurate? Or at least give the user the flexibility to choose for themselves vs having filters present that can't be switched on or off.
Sometimes people fix perceived flaws during remakes. Look at the movie industry. Remasters constantly try to improve on the original in some way
In my ears it feels like MiSTer have a cleaner sound. Listened in a pair of Sony WH 1000x (1st gen), and the clip in the end of Real Bout Fatal Fury Special
ran on the Final Burn Neo emulator. :)
I tend to agree slightly
MISTer has stronger colors and a higher black value. The contrast is also higher. FB NG has more natural colors
and a softer contrast. The black level is not that strong.
Both versions are very nice, although I prefer more natural colors and a not so strong contrast.
Over time, colors that are too strong and a high contrast can be very stressful on the eyes.
But that makes it more fun. It's up to you which version you prefer.
Remember too one of these goes through a capture card and the other is OBS
Yea, neogeo emulation, especially fbn, has been pretty much perfect for some years now
It’s extremely good for sure
Always in the mood to see your works VGE. Sorry I'm late for the comment section. But better late than never. I saw your video on Atariage, so came by to show support and write a comment to you bro. Th you as always bro. 8^)
Anthony..
Why are you commenting on Monday’s. I thought you hated them? (Thanks as always)
Finally getting mister fpga thanks to your videos! Thanks brotha
Enjoy it!
I always knew FBNeo was the best emulator for Neo games but I am rather impressed with how close it is to Mister there!
The only thing that would prob swing me one way or the other would be the sound, It defo sounds better on Mister.
But tbf when you start talking about sound and Softer/Harder images you are really in the domains of personal opinion.
Great vid as always man.
Yes sound is different but FB Neo is legit for sure
It's also better for Capcom games.
It is good for CPS and CPS 2 for sure
I was going to say that, MiSTer has better audio imo.
In this instance I preferred it as well
What song is that in the start that's playing in reverse? It's been nagging me for some time now, I recognize it, but I can't put my finger on it. I love these Mister video's and comparisons. Thanks!
I can't tell you. It's an easter egg. All I can hint at is the playlist title ;)
@@VideoGameEsoterica I know what it is but I dare not spoil it
No spoilers :) I like people to discover it themselves
@@VideoGameEsoterica Ha! The artist/band is very appropriate for this subject! What an 80s banger! 🤩
A real 80s cheesy classic
I think the clip it's from FBNeo because I feel there is some linear filtering applied into the image (blitter options).
I’ll answer the question tomorrow morning and pin the comment at the top :)
Garou! Love that game
And I have no idea which it was on.....
10/10 game. Hell maybe an 11/10 game
thats what I was hoping for lol
I would say the fatal fury you showed is Software emulation. I really like these comparison videos. Really impressed by the FB Neo being that accurate. I have a neo geo mini and i really dig it. Would be no surprise if they used also FB Neo.
You know I’m not sure what the Mini uses now that you mention it
My MiSTer smoke gray acrylic case was delivered today. Now that I have a full stack in a case and a MT32-pi attached, I think I can consider my hardware build to be done. As long as something else major for hardware isn’t developed in the near future. 😂
Haha you never know but I’m sure that will suffice!
Nice intro music, I used to listen to that track at the airstrip but my plane got damaged ☹
Very cool! The only difference regarding the sound; Final Burn sounds just a tad more muffled but I would only hear that difference when both are running simultaneously. Really depends on the speaker setup too I guess. I did notice the glitch in the Pulstar intro that happens on real hardware, didn’t occur on Final Burn :-) I agree on the convenience of MiSTer so I’ll go with that as my favorite, but gameplay wise I wouldn’t mind either!
I’d just love to know what’s up with Pulstar and the start button not working on AES mode. Seems like an issue others have reported
What version. I googled the issue and found others who encountered it.
@@VideoGameEsoterica I’m guessing this question is supposed to be a reply to another comment? :-)
Haha yep
Excited for this one!
hope you enjoy it!
1. Is that Jon Secada played backwards in the begining? 2. As I understand it, Mr. FPGA is an emulation device. Given how close it is to software emulation (based on this video), what is the attraction or difference/preference over using an emulator program like PJ64 (for Nintendo 64 for example)? Emulators are much easier to use than soldering is to do (if that's something that is required for the FPGA).
1 - it is not 2 - I will have a video soon explaining the advantages / differences of FPGA. They are more complex than a comment can answer :)
I going to say mister, audio sounds clear. Then again I've never played this on either system.
Both sound better than an OG Neo Geo LOL
Hmmm...Yeah, good question VGE. I should be in my sleeping box waiting for Tuesday. 8^)
Anthony...
The MiSTer Neo*Geo core is pretty amazingly accurate, but Final Burn Neo is absolutely no slouch either...Neo*Geo emulation has certainly came a long way in accuracy and performance since the likes of playing Super Baseball 2020, Samurai Shodown, or Nam-1975 on NeoRage/NeoRageX. I have easy access to a 2-slot MVS cabinet and NeoSD at a friend's house close by, so I don't play a ton of Neo*Geo outside of that anymore, but Final Burn Neo does well enough for me when I feel the itch to play a game where I don't own a Saturn port. I wish FB Neo and FBA were more performant on the Retroid Pocket and RG350M, since I probably play more Neo*Geo games in portable format than anything these days (mainly Super Baseball 2020, Baseball Stars 2, and Fatal Fury 3); however, that's not an emulator issue but a low-performance CPUs issues, and I just need to buy a more powerful handheld.
As for Real Bout Special..well, you've probably swapped in the Neo CD version or something to make fools of us all haha.
Haha I should have swapped in the Neo Geo CD version as a joke but I’ll tell you since it’s the next day : RBFFS was running on Final Burn Neo
Mister 4 LIFE!
it really is an AMAZING device
Well I mean this is all assuming the MISTer core is fully 100% accurate to original hardware. I think a better test would be to compare the MISTer to OG hardware first, and then do the comparison with FBN when it's been confirmed that the MISTer core really is king.
I already did :) check my playlists
I noticed that there are some NeoGeo rom hacks that run on Mister. How do I convert a game to work in Mister? I would love to play The King of Fighters 96 Anyversary Edition.
I am really not sure. That’s a good question. Some of the roll up packs include the bootleg roms too though
Yeah i'm not a fan of hard pixels either.. i like something closer to how something would look on an actual CRT.. when possible.
It is all game to game dependent for me really as to what I think looks good. I can never really decide
Great video
Super appreciate it!
Old video, I know, but just getting into Neo Geo Emulation. As far as the sound goes the Mister sounds terrible compared to the emulator. All muffled, like the speakers are inside a pillow. I think the Mister is a total rip off. I would never recommend it over emulation even a year and a half after this video was made. Emulation is fantastic! I emulation everything I can. At the moment it's about 25 systems and 10's of 1'000's pieces of software. Including old computers. Thanks for the video.
A rip off? Yeah that I can’t agree with lol
@@VideoGameEsoterica How can you justify such a piece of hardware that's extremely difficult to set up, very expensive and very limited on what it can do?
It’s not difficult at all
I love emulation filters and shaders, you can really make the games to look like in an old TV as they were meant to look, nothing wrong if all you prefer sharp pixels. But I hate things like 2seagle and shits like that, just a good composite or s video filter it's all you need.
I love sharp pixels but the softer image isn’t bad either
My money is on FBNeo, the image looked pretty soft. Also, does the image still look that sharp for MiSTer on CRT? I really don't like how these games look on LCD monitors. I'd also like to see you showing how much input delay there is between emulators. Input delay is a huge factor when it comes to playing these games. I'd like to see a comparison between original hardware, MiSTer and software emulation.
At some point I will to a lag video. I just don’t have all the hardware at this point in time to be thorough
What version of FBN? What video settings exactly?
I’d have to go back and look. It’s been a minute since I released this. But to my memory the video settings are stock out of the box. As far as version that I’d have to check the captures and see
@@VideoGameEsoterica if you have FBN 1.0.0.02 i can give you my settings if you want to make a try, i'm pretty sure you could achieve a better result.
What blitter do you choose for sharper image.thanks
I ended up wasting soooo much time with options in computer emulation!!
Amazing!❤
👍
Its fb because sound is mising some instruments
Is there any way to get a softer output/hardware accurate composite from MiSTer?
Yes I will have a video on that soon :)
@@VideoGameEsoterica does it work with the neo geo games though?
Yep!
I think RBFFS was running on the MiSTer
I’ll pin the answer to the top of the video tomorrow :)
Lol ur not gonna tell us the answer at the end? What a jip!
I pinned the answer to the top comment already :)
hi, could you please tell me if you noticed a difference in input lag?
Nothing substantial
@@VideoGameEsoterica thank you so much, I susbscribe now!!!
👍
Raspberry Pi 4 vs mister would be awesome video too ?
I have a Pi on the way :)
I don't know about NeoGeo but I do know games running on Retropie on Pi4 don't run like original hardware. Games are emulated too fast and have significant input delay. It's super obvious with CPS2 games like 2X and Alpha 3. I've even noticed frame drops and weird visual effects that I didn't see with even Pi3B+.
is there a way to improve the slowdown on mister?
No. The core runs 1:1 to the arcade boards on the cores
@@VideoGameEsoterica :( big sad
I mean I’m sure it can be done but the core maker would want to implement it
Hello, my buddy Federico wants to know on what hardware you run FBN.
Does it run as good on an RPi as far as you know? Thank you very much
It runs well on a Pi 4 but I am running it on my PC
NEO-GEO AES
Game cartridges
don't mix graphics and sound.
Mister can only read roms
and dose mix graphics and sound.
Mister colors are little
off and sounds too.
There is a reason why
Mr. Mister is cheaper option.
Mister will never amount to
original hardware.
But Mister can bring the games that never came home for sure 🎮😎👌🏻
Oh def MiSTer is cheaper than AES carts lol
@@VideoGameEsoterica
Cheaper as meaning GENERIC 😝
I mean I love collecting for AES but I don’t recommend anyone else do it. Get a MiSTer. Save tens of thousands of dollars!
@@VideoGameEsoterica you're implying that the mister performs better than original Hardware you just stated in this video you failed to mention Mister doesn't have the actual Hardware chips of any system and I don't agree with the others that are saying about Mister There is no way in hell this performs as his original Hardware.... just like when you debunk yourself playing Splatterhouse 2 for Sega Genesis at the end of that level there's a pixelated door but not on the original Hardware. You can't just accept the fact that Mister is a Cheesy emulator with a goofy fan in it and that plays decent enough to trick people into thinking this is just as good if not better than original Hardware.
I've liked all of your comments this is where I go over your head...
I would never buy this Mister crap
The fact is the Neo Geo core is based on decapped silicon from original hardware and then that is recreated in logic gates on the FPGA. It is not software emulation.
I am sitting next to a cabinet filled with AES games. Dozen upon dozen upon dozen. I love them all...but MiSTer is as good as original hardware when it comes to Neo Geo and I’ve been playing it forever
My guess is that it was real hardware.
it was Final Burn Neo!
How about input lag?
in the future I will go in depth on lag but I mentioned in my video as far as MY setup is concerned (PC specs, monitors, hard wired USB controller) I found no perceivable lag that affected any inputs in any of the fighting games
@@VideoGameEsoterica Sorry, must have missed it, didn't watch the whole thing but imagined that input lag might be a thing. Then again, maybe any advantage MiSTER has in that regard gets evened out by the way you set up the controls for it.
@@Fischonkel If you use the FBNeo core in Retroarch you can use run-ahead. It probably works out to less input lag than the Mister (and real hardware) on most games, although it can cause issues on some games.
Yes as long as its not affecting my gameplay in fighting games (where input is crucial) I say its "not apparently nor affects my gameplay therefor I don't find it an issue"...unscientific answer for now
at some point I will measure it all lol
My guess is it was running off MiSTer.
I will pin the answer tomorrow :)
Too bad to test it on a LCD screen 😉
Sorry not sure what you mean?
@@VideoGameEsoterica i mean these games would look better on a crt tv
I have a CRT Neo Geo video up from last week :)
@@VideoGameEsoterica yummy 😀
Enjoy it!
A good reason Not to buy a Neo Geo anymore.
That’s one way to look at it yes
😍
:)
Dont forget that FPGA fans dont like the dirty word emulation, and they can all definitely feel 2-3 frames of input lag. These are the new rules for the new religion. Always remember the right hand side of the screen there is MASSIVELY INFERIOR and you'll be Ok 😉 I like that you did the 'blind test' and I'm sure they could all tell which it was. I reckon that was FBNeo but i think i might be the only answer.
I’ll provide the answer tomorrow pinned at the top. LOL I take no sides in these comparisons. All I want is for people to play games
@@VideoGameEsoterica Yea thats the spirit...the blind test is interesting for sure!
Wait till the Sega CD comparison ;)
I feel the lag and all other issues Software emulation has. It seems more the raspi community is more religious. If you like Software emulation more power to you. I have also almost every mini console. They are ok ish imo mostly.
FPGA is not emulation !
It’s hardware emulation ..
@@adventuretaco7140 The title is confusing by the simple emulation. Some people could compare to Raspberry. By specifying hardware emu, it’s precise.
Its just a word. In the future I am doing a primer video on what FPGA is
In essence yes!
Technically the definition fits what an FPGA does. In January I will have a video discussing FPGA, what it is, how it functions, etc etc and will talk about terminology more then :)
Honestly, I don't understand this whole FPGA MiSTer thing, Mame has been around for nearly 24 years and the Neo Geo games have next to perfect emulation on all of them, so why would they need to reinvent the wheel with this 3rd person hardware gimmick that does the same thing?
I’ll be talking about the functional hardware differences and why FPGA is different / useful in a future video. It’s far more complex than a comment can answer :)
the appeal is that its the closest you can get to original hardware without all the mess and expense of such
In a lot of ways yes
I think the reason may be because it's an FPGA solution for many consoles / arcade cores / computers, in one box. Kind of like how RaspberryPi / RetroPie became popular as an emulation box, presented in a one box fits all solution. It's unreal how accurate and playable all of these solutions are these days. :)
to say a fpga is a gimmick is ridiculous its nice to use SNAC and play shump and fighting games with no lag and no interference from a OS. you say Neo Geo is perfect in mame that is FALSE. mame doesn't even run in parallel for starters so by default you cant say its perfect the graphics are not even being display on screen like real hardware does it mister is the first to do this. JT was the one who explain this in his Ghosts'n Goblins core vs mame also Digital Foundry notice this in his cps1 vs mame video of mister . so in order for mame to run in parallel they would need to redo everything from scratch and you are going to need a bigger computer also is this going to happen HELL NO . this is where a fpga has a big advantage it can run manythings in parallel .does this matter thats up to you how close do you want it to be to real hardware