Off topic, but I just love how cold Megatron’s stare is at 10:43. Starscream’s begging to be saved, while Megs just responds with an unmoving death stare.
That's one of the reasons as to why this is my favorite version of the character. He sometimes makes you forget that he is a fictional character, by acting very menacingly for what is basically a tv show for kids and young adults. He is a tyrant first and foremost, no matter how much honorable he tries to present both himself and the decepticons' goal, and the animators and writers certainly made sure to remind us of that.
I always thought he looks at Starscream like a cat. Like, you can't understand what's going on in his head but it's clearly apparent he's thinking of something insidious.
I mean, I would too if the one begging for his life was my traitorous second in command who tried to kill me in two different ways when I was at MY most vulnerable. I would have saved him regardless, let him back into the decepticon faction, and tell him that if he EVER tries anything again that I will feed him to predaking.
@@AsaelTheBeast yeah sometimes they just torture the autobots, and i'm talking about the one of the last arc of the show, where the decepticon capture rathet so he can help them created the artificial energon for the omegalock, they use the mind reading thing, but it didn't work on rathet because the artificial energon he created is not complete yet, so the decepticon convince him to help them complete the artificial energon without torture.
@@RPN_07 they give him the opportunity and resources, but you can see and hear Ratchet's fear (brilliant voice acting and animation) as he's trying to find a way out in one piece with the formula.
In my opinion transformers prime is great because the autobots and decepticons are realistic. Think about it, you wouldve acted the same as them if you were in their situation. They arent perfect and the story seems to benefit from this
If my reboot treatment* becomes legit and successful, I would do a prequel on Cybertron, showing how under Sentinel Prime’s command the Autobots were more keen on committing war crimes in the first half of the great war. While on Earth and under Optimus’ banner, of course, they would soften up and focus more on protecting the innocent than punishing the guilty. * TransformerZ on DeviantArt BTW, if you think the ‘bots are war criminals, wait until you see the Republican Space Rangers!
Unicron triology does well on some of this too. Wheel jack doesnt join the autobots because it them who left him for dead in the first place which is why he only gives a listening ear to hot shot because he understood hotshot didnt by nature doesnt dessert people and isnt a follow orders blindly soldier. Star scream saw megatron short comings as a war commander. While megatron wasnt cowardly persay it was mainly that megtron never treats them like brothers in arms fighting for their ideals nor encourages them to do the same for their team building for one another. And we know megatron gets worst in the later series with this mentality which lead to his self destruction
Yeah like, did she/he forget that this war raged on for 4 million years?? Sure, that doesn't mean their crimes are justified, but with war comes crimes. And with a war that lasts 4 million years, the killing and brutality will get to you. In IDW for example, (in Empire of Stone) a deception went mad from the killing and the seemingly immortality these robots have, wanting to kill everything from how the war affected him. The wreckers are warrior elites because of the war. And their specific group would breed brutality.
@@kaidothedrunkardrypticon can't transform back anymore,he was so damaged that turning him into nemesis made the transformation of him into a ship permanent,people who played the cybertron would know this
@@kaidothedrunkardMegatron said it was "all the better" when Soundwave told him Trypticon wouldn't be able to transform back, I have a feeling he doesn't want to repair him at all.
She got the Apex Armor, but she mainly used it to fight back against Starscream in a moment of desperation. It was still messed up that she was even their, but at the same time. Perhaps this ingenuity and luck is what allowed her to stick around with the wreckers in the first place.
@@hesiod_delta9209 They should have given all the Human characters , considering how vulnerable they were to attack and how pressed they were for numbers .
@@oolooo Miko dodging all of Lord Starscream attacks is so bs. She should have died right and there by the glorious Starscream. Realistically she would already be dead since the start of TFP.
Just imagine being alone in the exact same world as you were before,except there are no colours,just shades of grey,white and black,you can still see those around you,but they can never notice nor interact with you in anyway. Living in nonexistence.
The Decepticon miners became combatants when they opened fire. That's how non-combatants become combatants. Their status can change. Look at the Law of Armed Conflict.
And ultra magnus killing that one fleeing vehicon wouldn’t have been a war crime either as the vehicon shot first, thus justifying magnus shooting back and killing said vehicon
If Soundwave did get chatty during his interrogation instead of wiping his drives I imagine it'd mostly be remixes of Starscream talking since it'd already been established Starscream vents and monologues to Soundwave. Plus it could work nicely off the scene where Starscream raised the concern of Soundwave sharing Decepticon secrets and Megatron's comment of Soundwave knowing when to impart information and keep quiet.
It's also ridiculous trying to get information from a "Decepticon". There is no way you would get anything beneficial especially when they have the upper hand. Soundwave is too valuable for the decpticons and they would 100% try to retrieve him. Also just having him as a prisoner is basically planting a homing device in your HQ.
@@saagabragi6938 But what the Autobots doesn't know that Megatron is fully aware that they would not kill Soundwave as a ultimatum. Therefore even if such a deal was made it would be heavily in his favor.
Honestly the thing about Bulkhead is that he’s a wrecker, quite possibly the most unreliable or psychopathic people in the Autobot ranks. The wreckers are simply massively different than normal autobots, they do commit more crimes, they kill far more, they’re mostly placed on the field to destroy everything and everyone in the vicinity. Hell, their guidelines allow them to kill each other if they really want to. In all of the media concerning the wreckers they’re just THE autobots killers so it’s rather fitting they do the most damage and think.
Some of the wreckers are literal psychopaths (actually most of them are). Sometimes they even use decepticons as a suicide squad like team. The wreckers AREN'T good people.
I genuinely love the fact that The Autobots aren’t perfect. I don’t need a Hero to be perfect to root for them. Because they aren’t heroes, they’re soldiers. Soldiers doing what must be done. I dunno, I just, adore this darker side of them.
Especially when said soldiers were so heavily out matched by their enemies. Cons had a flying warship, hundreds of soldiers, dozens of Energon mines fueling it all, and for a time a Giant dragon.
That’s… something that does bother me though. DECEPTICONS! AUTOBOTS! If you shoot an enemy, and it just makes then flinch, one of you needs to upgrade your damn fire power!
Kinda hard not to defend yourself when you're being shot at. But when interrogating, the Autobots could've used the cortical psychic patch. Just "Saiyan." Lol😅
Notice how Megatron calls his prisoners “guests” and tries to make them comfortable so they’ll do what he wants? Like having the vehicons remove ratchets cuffs or not adding guards to Orion’s area until later? He even shows Ratchet around to persuade him into doing his bidding. He’s kinda playing with their minds but I don’t think it’s that manipulative. I’m very glad u made this video Emperor Kumquat
It's 100% manipulation when he told Ratchet to work with him and he won't kill the Autobots/humans since he knows where they're base it, and the second he finished that conversation, he told Starscream to blow it up. I do love the gentleman aspect though, like with mind-wiped Optimus.
I feel like he only did that because it was Ratchet and he is a valuable asset to any side he's one. If that was a mere autobot trooper he would have been killed or tortured for info and then killed
A really interesting topic i must say. Hell in IDW autobots were also commiting great war crimes as well as the deceptions. For example Arcee commiting genocide until she got to jihaxus to kill him and way later into the mainline story she works as a personal assassin for prowl, killing cons out of spite. Even Optimus is to blame. At way later into the story Optimus started to act shady and autocratic amongst the autobots making them believe he thought himself as the supreme. He put humanity and earth under galactic relations, a huge risky move that could endanger their less scientifically and physically inferior kind, almost kills prowl in a fight and gets him blinded of one eye, kills galvatron mercilessly after having him beg for his own life infront of Arcee and other autobots and so on. Hell in the Transformers Prime comics as well Air raid is a canibal that kills people around him to savor energon and was put down by nova star immediately without first having him imprisoned and locked down. Dinobots also killed a defenseless Insecticon kickback because he was related to shockwave. Hell PROWL, is the ultimate example. Despite being an autobot that guy committed more war crimes than even constructions and combaticons combined. If you want to learn more please go read IDW first continuation before it's reboot you will not be disappointed.
I am a big IDW Transformers fan, they and the TFP novels made me realize that the autobots are hypocrites, I'm completely sympathetic to the cons, coming up with theories on the real truth on the war and all the pain they went through and writing novels that show the real side of the autobots and cons. Also you forgot Prowl's hatred and bullying of tables. Seriously what is his problem with them?
Galvatron was more begging cause he realized Optimus was actually indeed about to kill him, as Soundwave asked a wounded one-armed Galvatron to surrender and help them for the nth time, but Galvatron said he'd only help them cause they "need him" to fight Onyx, and so Optimus made a speech that he believes in hope and redemption, but that Galvatron has proved he is now beyond it right before his execution.
That's why I love aligned and bayverse so much, it's realistic about certain things, I know g1 made autobots flawless heroes for a purpose, to teach kids healthy moral behaviors but approach where good characters can have moments of weakness or an act of violence feels really human, it makes fictional giant robot relatable and interesting.
I have to question the bayverse version of the Autobots. I feel they just made Autobots to vile in a way. Now to be fair, these guys have fought a war for millions of years, have to play by the rules of an organic species which betrays them half the time, and face a vicious and merciless enemy. Nobody’s coming out unscathed mentally. Still, I feel IDW and Aligned both kept the positive human traits of the Autobots in balance with their natural negative ones while the Bay movies just ramped up the negative traits one would expect and just wiped out the positive ones. Take Optimus Prime for instance. Prime, as you can see in nearly every continuity at least tries to give his enemies a chance to surrender before a fight. He’s the guy who holds himself up morally as an example to the other Autobots. Bayverse Prime makes speeches like the other Primes, but otherwise he just feels like a murder-crazy robot. In the movies and their comics, everything we see about the Autobots revolves around combat. That’s it. Other continuities at least showed the Autobots and Decepticons make references and talk about their old culture and life before the Great War.
Also Bumblebee might be/have been a child soldier. He was in the last generation the Allspark created, during the last stages of the war on Cybertron, and canonically fought in at least Tyger Pax. Smokescreen's case is less clear, but he kind of acts like a teenager.
Yeah we see the torture method backfire with the decepticons,when laser beak captured Fowler and starscream tortured him he ended up knocking him out by accident and I think it made him a bit loopy as well since if my memory serves me right Fowler wasn't exactly in the best shape when they reached him and was talking a bit of gibberish, starscream may not have known the autobots would come looking for Fowler or reach them so quickly but usually getting the information as fast as possible is usually what needs to happen as time is of the essence usually, but instead starscream made his captive fall unconscious and it took to long to wake him back up
5:31 That part I can understand Bulkhead killing Starscreams clone, Bulkhead didn't want to fight the clone but was just asking for help to escape the Nemesis, Starscreams clone was the first one to attack and then gloated on the part that he gutted Cliffjumper.
Actually there is a pretty famous case of realistic torture resulting in lies, which would be how in Star Wars, after being brutally tortured physically and threatened with her planet being destroyed, Leia still lied about Dantoine being the rebel base location.
I love that TFPrime showed this side of the autobots: the morally-dubious actions, psychological scars & war crimes make them feel more realistic and that they really are the same species as decepticons. Some I could give an excuse but most would need to be addressed after the war on trial. Too bad none of the sequels did this.
When Bulkhead tore the Spark out of Vehicon's chest, he did it because a Cybertronian is hard to knock out even for a short time, he had no choice but to eliminate him, and unlike the rest of the Bots, he does not have weapons that can do it "carefully", about Starscream, he did it in a state of "passion" because Starscream did so many things and betrayals that if left behind he would do something, about the miners, they lose non-combatant status after they took weapons and opened fire first in terms of brutal combat, Cybertronians experience much less pain and therefore, in order to effectively neutralize them, sometimes you have to dismember them
I'd like to point out that the goal for setting the grenade off on Makeshift was not to take out a ton of troopers or even Starscream. It was to protect the location of their base. Miko had told him flat out that it was just outside Jasper, Nevada. All it would have taken was either a quick scan, some surveillance, or just bombing a 50 mile radius from Jasper Town Hall, which the 'Cons would do in a spark-pulse if it meant that their Autobot problem was over. That grenade was no different than the CIA sniping someone through a window before they can sell state secrets, or blowing up the office of someone who has been selling weapons to the enemy...with them inside it. Distasteful? Yes. Necessary? Also yes. Because had they not, they and the children AND potentially all of Jasper could and WOULD have been annihilated. Also, Arcee itching to pull the trigger on comatose Megatron would be the same as a spy stumbling across a comatose Hitler. There's always a chance he could wake up and pick up exactly where he left off.........which is exactly what he did as soon as he woke up. Which is why you terminate that kind of problem when you have that kind of opportunity. 'Course, that just might be the pragmatic developed through watching things like L&O:SVU, Criminal Minds, and Burn Notice. 🤷♀
They really could have done more with the fact they had three children as main characters , keeping their charges grounded morally .But no , a chance wasted .
In you example about Vehicons is the same as Medics in the field. The medic which is a non combatant cannot be harmed during capture phases or actively targeted as he is listed as a non combatant. However the moment he picks up a gun and uses violence even as a means of defending is still considered a threat and is allowed to be treated as one. So when the miners are shooting at the autobots the autobots are allowed to fight and kill them as the miners are considered an active threat.
When Princess Leia was tortured aboard the Death Star (both physically and emotionally) in Star Wars A New Hope, she still gave false information. While this could be interrupted as Leia willfully deceiving the Empire, thus making her lies not a result of her being tortured, it is still an example of a tortured person not giving accurate information even though they are being tortured. Thus, the torture did not yield results.
Torture can give result depending how ,where and ON WHO you are using it oftentimes the threat of torture gives results and torture can Take many Forms , the simplest IS Just isolation
One thing to point out: Countries in this world probably have the Geneva Convention, but considering how long the Autobots have been at peace and since they had never had to sign a War Crime agreement, to them they try to do good but they aren’t perfect at this.
I think it’s insane how they expect us to root for them. When you think about it , Autobots won’t exactly accomplish their objective of acquiring peace on Cybertron. Unsolved problems, history being written by the victor, discrimination, & etc would just reignite a new war. Just like Beast Wars.
Id rather root for the Autobots who actively try to help humans and the earth, than the Deceptions who are willing to intentionally kill children and take over earth.
I guess to engage with the video, I don't know if I agree with calling all of these war crimes - like the miners in the example episode you showed were armed and attacking the Autobots. And furthermore, a lot of these are just the Autobots not liking the Decepticons or Autobots fighting in a war against combatants, I wouldn't call those actions immoral. Arcee contemplating killing a defenseless Megatron I guess comes a teeny bit closer but again, I don't see that as an immoral thought either. A lot of these to me just seem like perfectly acceptable combat, defensive or offensive, or extremely understandable reactions in this post-apocalyptic situation the Transformers find themselves in. Just my thoughts, though, good video.
That's how a lot of these videos tend to go, I find. They mine every potential thing that seems extreme to throw under 'cruel and unusual' even though most of them are just combat. War is horrible, and if anything TFP showing the Autobots being brutal in combat just helps hammer that home. Plus, these videos tend to water down the term 'war crime' a lot as well. No, leaving an enemy to die - even at the hands of a third party that is going to torture them - is not a war crime. You may consider it to be immoral, but being immoral does not make it a war crime. And on a practical standpoint, watering down your definition with things that are just combat also means that the actually serious stuff like Ratchet torturing a Vehicon loses impact because credibility had already been spent trying to sell the viewer on things that aren't warcrimes being bad.
Yeah seriously mostly these cases are just the Bots defending themselves, also shooting Megatron in a coma seems like a logical reaction considering he is the sadistic leader of the faction actively hunting them down, also he literally killed their planet (who Also raised the dead to fight them). Besides the cons would never show mercy to them why should the autobots be expected to do the same? I think people throw around the term ‘War crimes’ way too much when most of the cases here are just them defending themselves, and any immoral thing the bots do the cons do it 100x worse.
I think the war crimes that get played down way too much are the false flag, Fake truce and false surrender. These war crimes are a crimes because If you break These Rules you ensure that every Fight will BE a Deathmatch the enemy wont bother to imprison because you did false surrender before , this ensure a murderous war.
Your videos on the mistreatment of Decepticons, especially Vehicons, has inspired me to make a comic series on the struggles of a veteran Vehicon who grows disillusioned with the Decepticon cause, and eventually joins the Autobots.
I don’t think we’ve seen how rough such a changing of sides would be. We don’t see it with Jetfire/Skyfire, nor do we do with Drift. Maybe a bit with Dinobot and Blackarachnia. Still, we don’t really acknowledge that most Autobots would hate and be suspicious of a new recruit who was once a Decepticon. The trust issues over whether the new guy is a spy, given the freaking name of the faction. The Autobots who wonder if the new guy is responsible for horrible things. And of course the new guy who is going to be damn alone and harassed despite his change of heart. His only support likely would be Optimus Prime and for a number of Autobots, even that won’t be enough to assure them the new guy is loyal and trustworthy.
@@tristankawatsuma8962 Thats exactly an issue Im going to touch upon in the story! His main arc will be that he escapes the Decepticons, but doesn't fully join the Autobots until later, through great hesitation and speculation.
@@zara-hope5518 that was an idea I had, a vehicon miner building an underground city in the Mojave to protect himself and other vehicons who don't wish to fight
Before talking about decepicons , why just you take care about your “darth faceless” situation after reflecting 1M volts into your face and then come talk 😂
16:14 It also bears to note that the predacons were literally unborn babies. (And on that note, Predaking is propably a child soldier because while his body is fully grown, he was grown in a vat and first "woke up" when Shockwave fetched him to Darkmount, and by _Deadlock_ he was a few months old at most.
Eeehhhh yes and no. Yes because Predaking is kind of like Smokescreen but 100% less jokes and 300% more royal narcissism (so not at all like Smokescreen), and no because Cybertronians don't reproduce.
@@BlooMonkiMan They don reproduce yes, but they _are_ born. And propably don't spring out fully formed, at least not psychologically, so "baby" is a reasonable label. Especially since predacons are grown in vats, thought it isn't actually shown, implies they grow from _something._
9:22 To be perfectly fair , they had no other form of restraining him and getting out of there .And if they did assist him , they have absolutely no inkling of a hope he will not inmediately attempt to murder them .
Wreckers are almost always messed up: the purpose of the group is to take on dangerous, destructive, and downright suicidal missions that fit at the outer fringes of Autobot morals. In IDW2005, some of them are not only disobedient, but psychotic, and prone to substance abuse; Verity Carlo, a human wrecker much like Miko, was a bit more stable, but that's probably just because she joined them at the tail end of the war. Still, being in the visible range of high-profile 'cons like Megatron and Overlord probably didn't help. Whirl on the other hand had sociopathic tendencies before the war started, and may have contributed to it's start by beating up Megatron in prison; after the war, Whirl had "conversations" with the corpses of Sweeps he got... somewhere, which got him into a fight with Cyclonus. It's honestly kind of disturbing when you look past the guy's snarky humor.
I think when it comes to harming miners, autos don’t attack, yes they will be weapons ready, but if miners are to instigate the attack, they are no longer “workers” they can be considered militia, their intent is to kill the autobots so that they won’t get energon. Tho that’s how I would see it
@@2bdaqueen268if they didn’t get killed by autobots they will be killed by Megatron himself, also they hated autobots not because MEGATRON hates autobots but because all deciptcons hate autobots after they did to them in age of rust when MEGATRON tried to free them while autobots were spoiled bots and live their most expensive life meanwhile deciptcons were fighting each other to live .
A big shame to use deciptcons logo and siding with autobots who were treating them like slaves , HAVE YOU FORGOT WHAT WAS MEGATRONG FIGHTING FOR !?!! , “heroes create villains , not the opposite , and villains are the main heroes but corrupted” -Robert Hentzo
@@gracestingray he was fighting for power for himself bruh, he just shaped it as a revolution, he was willing to wipe out a race because he deemed them lesser and he felt he was entitled to rule their planet, his whole motto is “the strong survive the weak perish” Megatron Is not a hero in any way and Optimus didn’t create him, he made a monster out of himself, also none of the autobots we see defend the caste system or are said to have had slaves Optimus himself agreed with everything Megatron said, you “the decepticons were right” sayers are odd considering they committed mass genocide and poisoned their own planet at that point it doesn’t matter what they supposedly once fought for, also none of this even has to do with my comment
Your videos always give me new points of view to consider with TFP. I've never considered this side of the Autobots, although I can sort of understand why despite their idealism they resort to war crimes; after dealing with enemies doing scrap like raising the dead, at the very least some rules of war have probably flown out of the window in favor of (higher chances of) surviving to fight another day. It's too bad that it's not addressed by the human characters (such as Fowler) more, though. It would have made some interesting episodes to have the Autobots confront their hypocrisy.
It's not addressed since the vast majority of what he has stated in this video are not war crimes just some morally dubious actions that are permissible in war Not all of em but the majority
Remember when Bulkhead just tore the very spark off a Vehicon, which from a Cybertronian perspective is ripping someone's heart off? Transformers is damn brutal man.
13:33 the reason Ratchet wasn’t punished for was probably down to him being the only Autobot medic and it’s unlikely they’ll get another medic in time, let alone for one to even still exist
It still not an excuse , optimus can heal them like he did to ratchet , also his punishment can be less effective by making him go and serve every human as an ambulance form and call him when they really need him or just exile him later on one of Cybertron moons
@@gracestingrayand you think that telling him this won't cause resentment? Maybe after hearing this, Ratchet just leaves to avoid Saif punishment? In a desperate situation where they are outnumbered, they kinda have to weigh the consequences of punishment against morality. Sure its probably morally better to punish him but its not worth the risk of him leaving. Moral reasoning should never come into play during wartime; the situation is too dire for any morals.
The problem with a lot of these is that the Vehicons in most circumstances listed, are what are called “Valid targets”. Shooting them while they’re already incapacitated is a war crime, but bombing or raiding Infrastructure like the mines or actual military installations like their ship is valid. Secondly, the spy; In warfare, Spies are given no quarter. You can do with them as you wish, including using them against their own allies. Thirdly, RC was entirely justified in murdering Starscream on the spot after his numerous fake-surrenders. Perfidy is a war crime in and of itself, and is punishable by death.
It's interesting because in war, if a medical officer fires a rifle at the enemy they are no longer seen as a medic and can be shot at. So in a way the same could be said for the workers. If the operation is sanctioned by a military power, any personnel who fires a weapon is considered a standard solider.
On the topic of vehicons being non-combatants. If the mine is a legitimate target and they attempt to defend the mine then it should stand to reason that if they don't surrender or at least flee then they are combatants.
Torture isnt the best, good advice, but now I need another way to get my housemates to tell me where they put the cookies. (Jk, although I found that bit enlightening)
16:59 Also, torture victims will often just say whatever they think the torturer wants to hear, because the torturer will only stop after they receive information they (want to) believe.
Holy shit, a war crime video that actually covers actual war crimes instead of "hurr duurrr Optimus killed a fleeing combatant who has not shown any sign of surrender, war crimez!!1!"
True. The positive sentiment that the Autobots did try their war criminals and locked them up as punishment does feel a bit tarnished by the fact Prowl nearly covered it up. I mean, he came pretty close to destroying the chip with all the records, worried about what would happen with the reveal of these crimes. And of course in that continuity, America commits hypocrisy by making a secret alliance with the Autobots. Sure, we also see China and North Korea make secret deals with Combaticons and Predacons, not to mention we know an Autobot-Human Alliance is a great and wonderful thing, but in universe it just looks like if Japan made its own nuclear missiles after what happened at the end of the Pacific War.
“War crimes, you say? No matter how many policies you put on paper, in reality, there are no rights and wrongs in war. War itself is a crime. War cannot be justified.” - (Thisuri Wanniarachchi)
9:00 you go on about arcee killing defenseless Megatron, but just keep in mind Megatron ripped bumblebees voice box out, tried to resurrect undead deceptions. Took the deceased arm of a dead prime, and primus knows how many other war crimes he committed off camera. I side with arcee completely on that one. If the roles were reversed, Megatron would have killed her without a second thought.
2:42 the moment individual takes weapon to engage you, he becomes a viable target. Eg: medic is not a viable target, but if he starts to shoot/resists capture, you can shoot him. (It's more complicated than that, but you get the point). 6:25 it's not a war crime, it maybe is brutal, but he is still a combatant. 6:39 he was trying to shoot the guy, so no, he is still a target 6:45 it isn't immoral, many soldiers would rather die than get caught if their enemy is known for torture of POWs, taking the enemys who are trying to capture you along is an honorable action I'm not going to continue this list because I'm too lazy, i'll just make a summary: most people don't understand what is a war crime, and that civilian morals don't apply for wartime. Some things may be immoral, but allowed (eg. napalm). Some may be illigal, but morally right (eg. when nazi concentration camps were liberated many american and soviet soldiers would execute the guards after seeing what they did). War is a complicated thing, and sometimes to fight for good you have to make evil things... Why do i start to sound like capitan Price from reboot of modern warfare?
One thing that I had thought quite frequently is, if Megatron was so terrible and evil for all the pain, death and destruction to countless individuals, then what exactly does that make Optimus for allowing it to carry on for such a long period of time, especially when Ratchet made it clear that he had plenty of opportunities to put a stop to it long ago.
Megatron killed jazz and sentinel killed ironhide which is a good enough reason on its own but if you want more, both of them being responsible for more pain and destruction Optimus could ever think of. THEY LITERALLY TRIED TO ENSLAVE HUMANITY
Megatron in DOTM was about to shoot Optimus prime when Optimus said time to find out Thus rendering him a combatant and his death would not be a war crime
I know it might be a trend for video analysis but aside from the weird deal with vehicons I would excuse every one of these as relatively reasonable, accept for cases that would greatly endanger the team like going for vengence. I really really love that Transformers Prime can just let these dark sides slip with their characters it makes them feel very real, like in their shoes protocol or not you'd feel very similar.
Also in _Predacons Rising_ the Autobots use vehicon POWs as forced labor to rebuild Cybertron, keep them (and Knockout) handcuffed even amongst themselves in a locked room, and when Knockout demands they be allowed to bathe Autobots treat it as some sort of a frivolous demand and don't let them. Knockout is later taken as a defector propably because he has a name, while there's no word on the vehicons and none are seen later in the Aligned continuity (except mercenary Shadelock in RID15 who _might_ be a vehicon).
There were several vehicons in season 2 of RID. Post-war, many vehicons were put on the prison ship Alchemor and shipped into space, where Megatronus smashed it and caused it to crash.
2:42 to be fair the miners opened fire first on the Autobots and so lethal force was authorised in defence. In the case of Bulkhead refusing to rescue a deception while that is not nice to do, He does have the right to say he does not want too and does not try to stop the others from attempting it and I think we can all understand how he feels if that was our arch enemy or someone we despised so much. What he did to clone Starscream and that soldier though was overblown murder though and could have been done more cleaner. Wheeljack yeah he was over top and to be fair even the show admits he is an extremist compared to the main team (Bulkhead maybe not included). Megatron and allowing him to terminate Starscream in the mine by Arcee I see as more her accepting that she must keep the humans safe first and being realistic that she can't take Megatron on and likely it would only end in her, Jack's and still Starscream's deaths. Arcee's poor prisoner handling of Starscream was just wrong though. Ratchet was wrong to torture of course, I actually think Without Optimus Prime the team would become like shadows to the Deceptions in methods of warfare and morals. And the Show I think knows that and wants to show that. What's funny is that even with all these wrongful actions and crimes done by the Autobots, they're still moral and good than the Movie versions of themselves in Michael Bay's universe, Optimus especially. But this show does at least show that even good can become tainted and resort to more veil methods in war. War makes monsters of us all sadly. I don't want to sound like a Autobot Defender no matter what, but Optimus pays me too well as a PR man to not defend them.
3:07 This is a controversial issue here, since the mining class will defend the mine with weapons and shoot, it is unknown how many Decepticons accualy were combatants I doubt anyone in the mine wouldn't have heard hundreds of shots and probably all the Decepticons were ready to fight
For a fun little short have you considered doing a decepticon version of this but instead of it being an in depth breakdown its just a Yakaty Sax montage for everytime the decepticons commit a war crime?
IT'S A WAR Of course they're going to kill their enemies, And how the miners aren't combatants when they literally shoot at the autobots every time they see them ?
I don't know if Bulkhead should be given a pass or a harder punishment due to his past in the Wreckers... It could be said that him leaving and joining Prime means he is trying to change... But he was in the wreckers the wildcard autobot group taking on jobs the other bots refused to take for one reason or another and this show in Wheeljacks and Bulkheads behaviour.
I was once part of a joke group who based ourselves off of the autobots and decepticons of TFP, and I chose to join cons, when it came to prisoners we would keep ours alive, first one of our commanders autobots got they disected him
There is a chance the Autobots might (Keyword: Might) have been more moral during the earlier years of the war, but the longer it went on the more extreme they became due to bitterness and such. Not to mention, it is likely the Decepticons only started doing war crimes of their own when less extreme methods weren't making any changes, so they got more extreme, saw it actually did something, and it just spiraled out of control as they got more extreme, and more deranged and unhinged cybertronians joined them for less noble reasons (Just to inflict harm). While it is a bad thing the Autobots committed their own war crimes, I don't mind it as it makes them feel more 'human' in that they're like us. Lapses of judgement, bouts of hypocrisy, acting in the moment, clouded by emotions, etc. etc.
From what I know, it's the reverse, most Autobots in the early days were privelieged assholes benefiting from the Caste System, the ones we see today, along with a few others, are the more moral ones, who have had millions of years to ponder.
I can't help but imagine if the Transformers were turned into Pokémon, the Miners would be Sableye. For some reason you mentioning plush key chains of the Miners made me think of Sableye. XD
This is such an interesting topic as many series have their heroes call out villainy, but sometimes stoop to the level of said villains. In Flash, the heroes will often discourage killing but move past situations where a villain is killed by their actions. As you said though, it shows the moral complexity of the heroes not always sticking to their morals, which while can lead to actions that are unjustified, also show the fact that being a heroic character does not mean they can't go down dark paths. However, I wanna add, Optimus' line about Autobots hurting when all other means are exhausted is... is quite far from the truth at times.
Hurting any part of Cybertronian body is not that terrible as at humans, they can fix everything on themselves. But I agree, chopping an arm off must be terrible.
1. 3:10 the Vehicons in Darkness rising raised weapons and engaged first, they were no longer non-combatants 2. 4:09 Bulkhead has no obligation to assist Breakdown; this isn't a war crime. 3. 5:30 this is ABSOLUTELY excusable. Starscream engaged first and did not show any indication of surrender. 4. 6:35 The action is immoral, but It doesn't make sense to expect an Autobot to care about being considerate to a Decepticon (or vice versa) 5. 8:20 The Decepticons are enemy combatants who were just about to go through the ground bridge and murder all of them, using an explosive to kill them isn't a moral issue. 6. 8:50 the Vehicon opened fire and was thus deemed an active combatant by Magnus. 7. 10:00 morally speaking, the Autobots are better than the Decepticons is every way imaginable; and they Autobots do not have any sort of obligation to assist Starscream here. 8: 14:10 Neither the Autobot code, nor a "Cybertronian Hypocratic Oath" have been established in the Aligned Continuity. Ratchet has no obligation to assist Starscream. A lot of the arguments presented in the video hinge on the belief that the Autobots must wage a fair/morally unambiguous war against the Decepticons, which simply cannot happen in a conflict ; also (no offense) you seem to be biased towards the Decepticons, and often tend ignore the actions done by them that ultimately lead to the "war crimes" committed by the Autobots.
13:27 the orginal script had Ratchet blaming Optimus for Elita-1's death, causing Optimus to lose his cool and beat him. It was changed because the writers ultimately didn't want to pull a Bayverse on Ratchet.
In the defence of makeshift’s death, he did know their location thanks to miko. They could have just killed him, yes, but taking out a bunch while securing your base’s location from being leaked is basically 2-birds-1-stone.
All the characters are horribly dehumanizing at the vehicons. I think the vehicons are Aligned's cold-constructs because it makes sense for mass-produced artificial people to look identical. That also explains why they're with the Decepticons regardless of their treatment (it isn't as if the Autobots would be any better to them, and Megatron originally promised them liberation).
5:31 this one really got me because we had an episode where Arcee seeks for revenge but releases how hatred turning her into something horrible, especially in the eyes of her friends. And this ends with wise words of Optimus; obviously show gives us a good moral about it. And then later Bulk just kills Screamer (he didn't know it was a fake). I was so mad about it, like why Arcee can't but Bulkhead is allowed to?? Wasn't show supposed to mean its a bad thing to do? It just breaks it's own points! This was obviously made to keep show in tense but still..
Even the most good and honorable people have to make a few omelettes to protect the innocent. Also, notice how most of these crimes have Starscream involved. Honestly, Starscream being a casualty would be pretty justifiable since he is such a cheating scumbag and a threat to both sides.
It’s not a war crime if you win. So therefore the Autobots in the aligned continuity have no war crimes. In the IDW continuity they did define some of the war crimes set up by the Tyrest Accord, they covered some of them during Megatron’s trial and the MTMTE series.
It would be cool to see a series deal with the difference between what humans and transformers consider war crimes. Like, human military allies holding their support ransom when the Autobots prepare to do something we would consider unethical. The Autobots resenting that they're being strangled by human ethics while the Decepticons aren't. Human characters who come to support the Autobots way of warfare, while Autobot characters are swayed over to the humans point of view. The inevitable fallout when an Autobot decides the need is too great to play by human rules, and their military contact realises they treat their people's deepest values like something to be humoured until it becomes inconvenient.
*Kumquat: "I do not hate the Autobots."* *Also Kumquat: Spends over 19 minutes LITERALLY hating on the Autobots.* *Guess what, Polyanna? THIS IS A WAR. Nice things don't happen in war. It's true! And even the good guys have to do unpleasant things if they want to survive. Life isn't that black and white, so you can just shove your unrealistic expectations because they would literally hand the Decepticons victory on a silver platter. Sometimes unpleasant shit NEEDS to be done, even by the good guys.* *Christ almighty...*
EK is not hating on the Autobots, just showing that they too do bad things like the Decepticons do, like you said, so people don't think they are saints or anything, believing their own words saying they are good and the Cons are bad. You can like a character or group but still criticize their actions, criticizing does not equal hating. Heck, showing that the Autobots do immoral things too even makes the show more likable and realistic, and in an odd way might even make some people like the Autobots even more, just like how many people like bad guys despite knowing what they do is wrong.
@@Rubywing4 Even with all the bad things the Autobots do, I would still side them. They're the only Cybertronians which respect other life forms such as humans. Ok, I want to ask you something else. Are you a Transformers expert? Are 12,7×99mm (50 Cal BMG) and 20×102 bullets deadly for Cybertronians in Transformers: Prime?
@@dreisiglps2451 Um, I'm sort of a Transformers expert, but not a weapons expert, not even an intermediate, so idk. I only know revolver, rifle, bazooka, machine gun and pew pew laser gun. I don't know number guns or abbreviation guns :P Though I would think most Earth weapons would rather sting and chip away at their armor slowly and not be deadly unless the same areas are repeatedly hit for many minutes or perhaps an hour, idk. Something like a bazooka though might do more damage and could be dangerous for a bot already injured, and could even do decent damage on a healthy bot. Tanks definitely could be deadly if hit in the right spots or enough times, one shot might not be deadly, but more would. But yes, although I do have more favorites among the Decepticons, I admit I would also prefer to be with the Autobots, coz there are also too many crazies among the cons and I wouldn't feel safe with them, probably.
Let’s just remember this really isn’t a traditional war but more of a black ops missions sim lair to the Cold War. As long as the war crimes are not found out then it was fine.
"Now remember kids, it's not a war crime if you win."
-Anakin Skywalker
That's literally how it works in real life.
@@nil981 yes, unfortunately
He says that while slicing kids in half
What's the difference between a terrorist group and a group of revolutionaries
@@notfunny3397 the difference is he who writes the story.
Off topic, but I just love how cold Megatron’s stare is at 10:43. Starscream’s begging to be saved, while Megs just responds with an unmoving death stare.
That's one of the reasons as to why this is my favorite version of the character. He sometimes makes you forget that he is a fictional character, by acting very menacingly for what is basically a tv show for kids and young adults. He is a tyrant first and foremost, no matter how much honorable he tries to present both himself and the decepticons' goal, and the animators and writers certainly made sure to remind us of that.
That shot *still* creeps me out. How he stands so incredibly still, with his eyes practically facing opposite directions… eesh.
I always thought he looks at Starscream like a cat. Like, you can't understand what's going on in his head but it's clearly apparent he's thinking of something insidious.
I mean, I would too if the one begging for his life was my traitorous second in command who tried to kill me in two different ways when I was at MY most vulnerable.
I would have saved him regardless, let him back into the decepticon faction, and tell him that if he EVER tries anything again that I will feed him to predaking.
I don't know man.
Looks like the stare of someone who's turned on to me...
The decepticon did a better job interrogating rathet than the autobots just want to point it out.
Mainly because they literally have a mind reading device. They also just torture for the hell of it, sometimes.
Cortical psychic patch goes brrrrrr
@@AsaelTheBeast yeah sometimes they just torture the autobots, and i'm talking about the one of the last arc of the show, where the decepticon capture rathet so he can help them created the artificial energon for the omegalock, they use the mind reading thing, but it didn't work on rathet because the artificial energon he created is not complete yet, so the decepticon convince him to help them complete the artificial energon without torture.
Consider they can just rummage through their victims brains with a cord yeah they have that advantage
@@RPN_07 they give him the opportunity and resources, but you can see and hear Ratchet's fear (brilliant voice acting and animation) as he's trying to find a way out in one piece with the formula.
The Autobots greatest crime that they've committed is ruining knockouts paint job
Lmao 😂
By knockout
-knockout
real
In my opinion transformers prime is great because the autobots and decepticons are realistic. Think about it, you wouldve acted the same as them if you were in their situation. They arent perfect and the story seems to benefit from this
Optimus is the Superman of the story, an ideal to strive towards XD
If my reboot treatment* becomes legit and successful, I would do a prequel on Cybertron, showing how under Sentinel Prime’s command the Autobots were more keen on committing war crimes in the first half of the great war. While on Earth and under Optimus’ banner, of course, they would soften up and focus more on protecting the innocent than punishing the guilty.
* TransformerZ on DeviantArt
BTW, if you think the ‘bots are war criminals, wait until you see the Republican Space Rangers!
Unicron triology does well on some of this too. Wheel jack doesnt join the autobots because it them who left him for dead in the first place which is why he only gives a listening ear to hot shot because he understood hotshot didnt by nature doesnt dessert people and isnt a follow orders blindly soldier.
Star scream saw megatron short comings as a war commander. While megatron wasnt cowardly persay it was mainly that megtron never treats them like brothers in arms fighting for their ideals nor encourages them to do the same for their team building for one another.
And we know megatron gets worst in the later series with this mentality which lead to his self destruction
Yeah like, did she/he forget that this war raged on for 4 million years?? Sure, that doesn't mean their crimes are justified, but with war comes crimes.
And with a war that lasts 4 million years, the killing and brutality will get to you. In IDW for example, (in Empire of Stone) a deception went mad from the killing and the seemingly immortality these robots have, wanting to kill everything from how the war affected him.
The wreckers are warrior elites because of the war. And their specific group would breed brutality.
Especially if you’ve been fighting as long as they have. You’d just get tired of trying to take the high ground in something that seems never ending
I can't help but feel like trying to fight a "fair war" is over when the enemy starts raising the dead.
EXACTLY! But the person that made the video and people that share the same opinion won't look at it like that
@@kaidothedrunkard Megatron forgor 💀 that he imprisoned cyber Godzilla within his own body as a warship.
Star wars the clone wars laughing in the background
@@kaidothedrunkardrypticon can't transform back anymore,he was so damaged that turning him into nemesis made the transformation of him into a ship permanent,people who played the cybertron would know this
@@kaidothedrunkardMegatron said it was "all the better" when Soundwave told him Trypticon wouldn't be able to transform back, I have a feeling he doesn't want to repair him at all.
They should be thankful Miko was not give a Mech Suit earlier .Her war crime count would be off the charts .
Killing miko would be my greatest joy.
@@emperortime2356
Miko Haters are cringetards
She got the Apex Armor, but she mainly used it to fight back against Starscream in a moment of desperation. It was still messed up that she was even their, but at the same time. Perhaps this ingenuity and luck is what allowed her to stick around with the wreckers in the first place.
@@hesiod_delta9209
They should have given all the Human characters , considering how vulnerable they were to attack and how pressed they were for numbers .
@@oolooo Miko dodging all of Lord Starscream attacks is so bs. She should have died right and there by the glorious Starscream. Realistically she would already be dead since the start of TFP.
Soundwave being locked in the shadowzone most likely falls under a war crime due to it being a cruel and unusual punishment
In other words: false impressionment
@@blueraccoon1088 even worse than that, as he can see everything that happens, and do nothing
@@jackofalltradeshermes So... mutilation?
Just imagine being alone in the exact same world as you were before,except there are no colours,just shades of grey,white and black,you can still see those around you,but they can never notice nor interact with you in anyway. Living in nonexistence.
At least he managed to escape
The Decepticon miners became combatants when they opened fire. That's how non-combatants become combatants. Their status can change. Look at the Law of Armed Conflict.
True. However Rachet beating down a fleeing minor and torturing him would be considered a major war crime.
And ultra magnus killing that one fleeing vehicon wouldn’t have been a war crime either as the vehicon shot first, thus justifying magnus shooting back and killing said vehicon
@@kingorange7739 Exactly why you don’t do drugs during a war
@@Venomzzzz exactly. Didn’t work for Germany either.
@@JoshCreepa Accurate
If Soundwave did get chatty during his interrogation instead of wiping his drives I imagine it'd mostly be remixes of Starscream talking since it'd already been established Starscream vents and monologues to Soundwave. Plus it could work nicely off the scene where Starscream raised the concern of Soundwave sharing Decepticon secrets and Megatron's comment of Soundwave knowing when to impart information and keep quiet.
This but Soundwave instead of giving actual info, just plays Starscream trauma dumping and cuts out the helpful info
@@Crystre The biggest troll move
It's also ridiculous trying to get information from a "Decepticon". There is no way you would get anything beneficial especially when they have the upper hand.
Soundwave is too valuable for the decpticons and they would 100% try to retrieve him. Also just having him as a prisoner is basically planting a homing device in your HQ.
@@zeppelincraft1443
But he could've been useful as a hostage because he's important to Megatron
@@saagabragi6938 But what the Autobots doesn't know that Megatron is fully aware that they would not kill Soundwave as a ultimatum. Therefore even if such a deal was made it would be heavily in his favor.
A man once said "it is not a war crime, it is simply denying the enemy potential recruits."
Honestly the thing about Bulkhead is that he’s a wrecker, quite possibly the most unreliable or psychopathic people in the Autobot ranks. The wreckers are simply massively different than normal autobots, they do commit more crimes, they kill far more, they’re mostly placed on the field to destroy everything and everyone in the vicinity. Hell, their guidelines allow them to kill each other if they really want to. In all of the media concerning the wreckers they’re just THE autobots killers so it’s rather fitting they do the most damage and think.
Yeah, they’re quite literally called black ops in the show.
Some of the wreckers are literal psychopaths (actually most of them are). Sometimes they even use decepticons as a suicide squad like team. The wreckers AREN'T good people.
The Dinobots are arguably worse. Especially Grimlock. He's a bloody sociopath. He kept Con heads in his locker, for Primus' sake.
Basically they kill to have fun
So it says a lot about Bulkhead that he quit the Wreckers, doesn’t it?
I genuinely love the fact that The Autobots aren’t perfect. I don’t need a Hero to be perfect to root for them. Because they aren’t heroes, they’re soldiers. Soldiers doing what must be done. I dunno, I just, adore this darker side of them.
If you really look through Transformers media, you see that "this darker side of them" is really the only side of them...
Especially when said soldiers were so heavily out matched by their enemies.
Cons had a flying warship, hundreds of soldiers, dozens of Energon mines fueling it all, and for a time a Giant dragon.
That’s… something that does bother me though. DECEPTICONS! AUTOBOTS! If you shoot an enemy, and it just makes then flinch, one of you needs to upgrade your damn fire power!
Kinda hard not to defend yourself when you're being shot at. But when interrogating, the Autobots could've used the cortical psychic patch. Just "Saiyan." Lol😅
Could they though? If I’m not mistaken that’s a Decepticon invention. I don’t think Autobots had that much access to it.
Honestly, the various versions of Optimus alone have enough crimes behind them for an entire video on their own
Especially Bayverse Optimus also known as Warcrime Prime
@@TheManWhoErasedHisNane Geneva Suggestiomus prime
@@TheManWhoErasedHisNane "KILL EM ALL!"
@@TheManWhoErasedHisNane (Insert overused "Give me your face" joke here)
Reboot prime is pure he has no war crimes
Notice how Megatron calls his prisoners “guests” and tries to make them comfortable so they’ll do what he wants? Like having the vehicons remove ratchets cuffs or not adding guards to Orion’s area until later? He even shows Ratchet around to persuade him into doing his bidding. He’s kinda playing with their minds but I don’t think it’s that manipulative. I’m very glad u made this video Emperor Kumquat
He can be a gentlemech at times.
Well they’re called Decepticons for a reason, deception is their game
It's 100% manipulation when he told Ratchet to work with him and he won't kill the Autobots/humans since he knows where they're base it, and the second he finished that conversation, he told Starscream to blow it up. I do love the gentleman aspect though, like with mind-wiped Optimus.
I feel like he only did that because it was Ratchet and he is a valuable asset to any side he's one. If that was a mere autobot trooper he would have been killed or tortured for info and then killed
I mean, no, he's calling them guests to mock them. He doesn't let Ratchet have unfettered access to the Nemesis, just the lab.
A really interesting topic i must say. Hell in IDW autobots were also commiting great war crimes as well as the deceptions. For example Arcee commiting genocide until she got to jihaxus to kill him and way later into the mainline story she works as a personal assassin for prowl, killing cons out of spite. Even Optimus is to blame. At way later into the story Optimus started to act shady and autocratic amongst the autobots making them believe he thought himself as the supreme. He put humanity and earth under galactic relations, a huge risky move that could endanger their less scientifically and physically inferior kind, almost kills prowl in a fight and gets him blinded of one eye, kills galvatron mercilessly after having him beg for his own life infront of Arcee and other autobots and so on. Hell in the Transformers Prime comics as well Air raid is a canibal that kills people around him to savor energon and was put down by nova star immediately without first having him imprisoned and locked down. Dinobots also killed a defenseless Insecticon kickback because he was related to shockwave. Hell PROWL, is the ultimate example. Despite being an autobot that guy committed more war crimes than even constructions and combaticons combined. If you want to learn more please go read IDW first continuation before it's reboot you will not be disappointed.
I am a big IDW Transformers fan, they and the TFP novels made me realize that the autobots are hypocrites, I'm completely sympathetic to the cons, coming up with theories on the real truth on the war and all the pain they went through and writing novels that show the real side of the autobots and cons.
Also you forgot Prowl's hatred and bullying of tables. Seriously what is his problem with them?
İ agree honestly
Galvatron deserved it though, that guy mistreated his own people horribly
Prowl so twisted, that Constructicons just betrayed their case, just to follow him. And they was one of the most violent and cruel cons.
Galvatron was more begging cause he realized Optimus was actually indeed about to kill him, as Soundwave asked a wounded one-armed Galvatron to surrender and help them for the nth time, but Galvatron said he'd only help them cause they "need him" to fight Onyx, and so Optimus made a speech that he believes in hope and redemption, but that Galvatron has proved he is now beyond it right before his execution.
That's why I love aligned and bayverse so much, it's realistic about certain things, I know g1 made autobots flawless heroes for a purpose, to teach kids healthy moral behaviors but approach where good characters can have moments of weakness or an act of violence feels really human, it makes fictional giant robot relatable and interesting.
I have to question the bayverse version of the Autobots. I feel they just made Autobots to vile in a way. Now to be fair, these guys have fought a war for millions of years, have to play by the rules of an organic species which betrays them half the time, and face a vicious and merciless enemy. Nobody’s coming out unscathed mentally.
Still, I feel IDW and Aligned both kept the positive human traits of the Autobots in balance with their natural negative ones while the Bay movies just ramped up the negative traits one would expect and just wiped out the positive ones. Take Optimus Prime for instance. Prime, as you can see in nearly every continuity at least tries to give his enemies a chance to surrender before a fight. He’s the guy who holds himself up morally as an example to the other Autobots. Bayverse Prime makes speeches like the other Primes, but otherwise he just feels like a murder-crazy robot. In the movies and their comics, everything we see about the Autobots revolves around combat. That’s it. Other continuities at least showed the Autobots and Decepticons make references and talk about their old culture and life before the Great War.
@@tristankawatsuma8962 idw optimus was the perfect balance tbh, he would commit 20 war crimes then be the most hopefilled individual of all time
@@tristankawatsuma8962*too vile
I love how by the end of bayverse, the cons have a more healthy relationship than the bots do
@@historicflame972 thats really weird but yeah the bots were always fighting in TF 4 and 5
9:22 I always found that cruel. Glad I'm not the only one.
Also Bumblebee might be/have been a child soldier.
He was in the last generation the Allspark created, during the last stages of the war on Cybertron, and canonically fought in at least Tyger Pax.
Smokescreen's case is less clear, but he kind of acts like a teenager.
Smokescreen strikes me as college-age. True, he does have some teenager-like moments, but he’s fairly competent when push comes to shove.
@@zafool4997
I think Smokescreen is about Bee's age
Yeah we see the torture method backfire with the decepticons,when laser beak captured Fowler and starscream tortured him he ended up knocking him out by accident and I think it made him a bit loopy as well since if my memory serves me right Fowler wasn't exactly in the best shape when they reached him and was talking a bit of gibberish, starscream may not have known the autobots would come looking for Fowler or reach them so quickly but usually getting the information as fast as possible is usually what needs to happen as time is of the essence usually, but instead starscream made his captive fall unconscious and it took to long to wake him back up
5:31 That part I can understand Bulkhead killing Starscreams clone, Bulkhead didn't want to fight the clone but was just asking for help to escape the Nemesis, Starscreams clone was the first one to attack and then gloated on the part that he gutted Cliffjumper.
To be fair, Screamer had it coming for him. Like, litterly screaming at him. How he managed to cheat death for so long is a mystery to me.
Actually there is a pretty famous case of realistic torture resulting in lies, which would be how in Star Wars, after being brutally tortured physically and threatened with her planet being destroyed, Leia still lied about Dantoine being the rebel base location.
Ur taking about Leia right?
@@rehmanzo7861 yeah lol thanks for making me realize my mistake, just corrected my comment.
I love that TFPrime showed this side of the autobots: the morally-dubious actions, psychological scars & war crimes make them feel more realistic and that they really are the same species as decepticons. Some I could give an excuse but most would need to be addressed after the war on trial.
Too bad none of the sequels did this.
“Heh war crimes, you mean doing whatever it takes to win.” - Prowl probably
Shockwave, Megatron, Starscream, etc boutta go on about how based this take is
Prowl repeat offener of the warcrime
"You shall Not harm the table"
“It’s one big shade of grey. And the dark kind, I’m afraid to say”
-The amazing world of gumball
When Bulkhead tore the Spark out of Vehicon's chest, he did it because a Cybertronian is hard to knock out even for a short time, he had no choice but to eliminate him, and unlike the rest of the Bots, he does not have weapons that can do it "carefully",
about Starscream, he did it in a state of "passion" because Starscream did so many things and betrayals that if left behind he would do something,
about the miners, they lose non-combatant status after they took weapons and opened fire first
in terms of brutal combat, Cybertronians experience much less pain and therefore, in order to effectively neutralize them, sometimes you have to dismember them
I'd like to point out that the goal for setting the grenade off on Makeshift was not to take out a ton of troopers or even Starscream. It was to protect the location of their base. Miko had told him flat out that it was just outside Jasper, Nevada. All it would have taken was either a quick scan, some surveillance, or just bombing a 50 mile radius from Jasper Town Hall, which the 'Cons would do in a spark-pulse if it meant that their Autobot problem was over. That grenade was no different than the CIA sniping someone through a window before they can sell state secrets, or blowing up the office of someone who has been selling weapons to the enemy...with them inside it. Distasteful? Yes. Necessary? Also yes. Because had they not, they and the children AND potentially all of Jasper could and WOULD have been annihilated.
Also, Arcee itching to pull the trigger on comatose Megatron would be the same as a spy stumbling across a comatose Hitler. There's always a chance he could wake up and pick up exactly where he left off.........which is exactly what he did as soon as he woke up. Which is why you terminate that kind of problem when you have that kind of opportunity. 'Course, that just might be the pragmatic developed through watching things like L&O:SVU, Criminal Minds, and Burn Notice. 🤷♀
They really could have done more with the fact they had three children as main characters , keeping their charges grounded morally .But no , a chance wasted .
In you example about Vehicons is the same as Medics in the field. The medic which is a non combatant cannot be harmed during capture phases or actively targeted as he is listed as a non combatant. However the moment he picks up a gun and uses violence even as a means of defending is still considered a threat and is allowed to be treated as one. So when the miners are shooting at the autobots the autobots are allowed to fight and kill them as the miners are considered an active threat.
When Princess Leia was tortured aboard the Death Star (both physically and emotionally) in Star Wars A New Hope, she still gave false information.
While this could be interrupted as Leia willfully deceiving the Empire, thus making her lies not a result of her being tortured, it is still an example of a tortured person not giving accurate information even though they are being tortured. Thus, the torture did not yield results.
Torture can give result depending how ,where and ON WHO you are using it oftentimes the threat of torture gives results and torture can Take many Forms , the simplest IS Just isolation
Let's be honest though- this only makes this series so much more interesting to analyze.
One thing to point out: Countries in this world probably have the Geneva Convention, but considering how long the Autobots have been at peace and since they had never had to sign a War Crime agreement, to them they try to do good but they aren’t perfect at this.
_"Geneva Convention? More like Geneva Suggestion."_
-Optimus Prime, probably
I think it’s insane how they expect us to root for them. When you think about it , Autobots won’t exactly accomplish their objective of acquiring peace on Cybertron. Unsolved problems, history being written by the victor, discrimination, & etc would just reignite a new war.
Just like Beast Wars.
They don’t expect you to root for them. If you’re not helping them they want you out of their way
Id rather root for the Autobots who actively try to help humans and the earth, than the Deceptions who are willing to intentionally kill children and take over earth.
Well the Cons would’ve committed mass genocide on the humans and taken earth as their property if they won
@@PJmachine Most cons prob don't want to kill humans like starscream meg just wants to kill
@@PJmachine Knockout is living proof of a Con's ability to change
12:50
I still harbor the conspiracy theory that this guy goes on to become Shadelock, the vehicon bounty hunter.
Change my mind.
I have no problem with this since Shadelock might just be my favorite RID character.
Same VA or something else makes you think this?
I guess to engage with the video, I don't know if I agree with calling all of these war crimes - like the miners in the example episode you showed were armed and attacking the Autobots. And furthermore, a lot of these are just the Autobots not liking the Decepticons or Autobots fighting in a war against combatants, I wouldn't call those actions immoral. Arcee contemplating killing a defenseless Megatron I guess comes a teeny bit closer but again, I don't see that as an immoral thought either. A lot of these to me just seem like perfectly acceptable combat, defensive or offensive, or extremely understandable reactions in this post-apocalyptic situation the Transformers find themselves in. Just my thoughts, though, good video.
That's how a lot of these videos tend to go, I find. They mine every potential thing that seems extreme to throw under 'cruel and unusual' even though most of them are just combat. War is horrible, and if anything TFP showing the Autobots being brutal in combat just helps hammer that home.
Plus, these videos tend to water down the term 'war crime' a lot as well. No, leaving an enemy to die - even at the hands of a third party that is going to torture them - is not a war crime. You may consider it to be immoral, but being immoral does not make it a war crime.
And on a practical standpoint, watering down your definition with things that are just combat also means that the actually serious stuff like Ratchet torturing a Vehicon loses impact because credibility had already been spent trying to sell the viewer on things that aren't warcrimes being bad.
Yeah seriously mostly these cases are just the Bots defending themselves, also shooting Megatron in a coma seems like a logical reaction considering he is the sadistic leader of the faction actively hunting them down, also he literally killed their planet (who Also raised the dead to fight them). Besides the cons would never show mercy to them why should the autobots be expected to do the same? I think people throw around the term ‘War crimes’ way too much when most of the cases here are just them defending themselves, and any immoral thing the bots do the cons do it 100x worse.
I think the war crimes that get played down way too much are the false flag, Fake truce and false surrender. These war crimes are a crimes because If you break These Rules you ensure that every Fight will BE a Deathmatch the enemy wont bother to imprison because you did false surrender before , this ensure a murderous war.
Your videos on the mistreatment of Decepticons, especially Vehicons, has inspired me to make a comic series on the struggles of a veteran Vehicon who grows disillusioned with the Decepticon cause, and eventually joins the Autobots.
I don’t think we’ve seen how rough such a changing of sides would be. We don’t see it with Jetfire/Skyfire, nor do we do with Drift. Maybe a bit with Dinobot and Blackarachnia. Still, we don’t really acknowledge that most Autobots would hate and be suspicious of a new recruit who was once a Decepticon. The trust issues over whether the new guy is a spy, given the freaking name of the faction. The Autobots who wonder if the new guy is responsible for horrible things. And of course the new guy who is going to be damn alone and harassed despite his change of heart. His only support likely would be Optimus Prime and for a number of Autobots, even that won’t be enough to assure them the new guy is loyal and trustworthy.
@@tristankawatsuma8962 Thats exactly an issue Im going to touch upon in the story! His main arc will be that he escapes the Decepticons, but doesn't fully join the Autobots until later, through great hesitation and speculation.
Or abandons the war and goes into hiding try to make a safe havan on earth to built a life for himself.
@@zara-hope5518 that was an idea I had, a vehicon miner building an underground city in the Mojave to protect himself and other vehicons who don't wish to fight
Before talking about decepicons , why just you take care about your “darth faceless” situation after reflecting 1M volts into your face and then come talk 😂
War crimes eh? IDW Prowl would be proud lol
War crimes so criminal it makes idw prowl blush
Bayverse prime also
16:14
It also bears to note that the predacons were literally unborn babies.
(And on that note, Predaking is propably a child soldier because while his body is fully grown, he was grown in a vat and first "woke up" when Shockwave fetched him to Darkmount, and by _Deadlock_ he was a few months old at most.
Eeehhhh yes and no. Yes because Predaking is kind of like Smokescreen but 100% less jokes and 300% more royal narcissism (so not at all like Smokescreen), and no because Cybertronians don't reproduce.
@@BlooMonkiMan
They don reproduce yes, but they _are_ born. And propably don't spring out fully formed, at least not psychologically, so "baby" is a reasonable label.
Especially since predacons are grown in vats, thought it isn't actually shown, implies they grow from _something._
@@BlooMonkiMannobody told this guy about the horrors of budding
9:22 To be perfectly fair , they had no other form of restraining him and getting out of there .And if they did assist him , they have absolutely no inkling of a hope he will not inmediately attempt to murder them .
Wreckers are almost always messed up: the purpose of the group is to take on dangerous, destructive, and downright suicidal missions that fit at the outer fringes of Autobot morals.
In IDW2005, some of them are not only disobedient, but psychotic, and prone to substance abuse; Verity Carlo, a human wrecker much like Miko, was a bit more stable, but that's probably just because she joined them at the tail end of the war. Still, being in the visible range of high-profile 'cons like Megatron and Overlord probably didn't help.
Whirl on the other hand had sociopathic tendencies before the war started, and may have contributed to it's start by beating up Megatron in prison; after the war, Whirl had "conversations" with the corpses of Sweeps he got... somewhere, which got him into a fight with Cyclonus. It's honestly kind of disturbing when you look past the guy's snarky humor.
Whirl uses humour to mask how hurt and fucked up he is
2:46 To be fair, the Vehicons shot first so the Autobots were basically attacking in self-defense.
Emperor Kumquat is a decepticon meat rider so they wont point it out as it defeats their little point
But they don't have to brutally dismembered them.
TH-cam doing what it does best deletes replies and then notified you of a update
Yeah the vehicons are fighting
I think when it comes to harming miners, autos don’t attack, yes they will be weapons ready, but if miners are to instigate the attack, they are no longer “workers” they can be considered militia, their intent is to kill the autobots so that they won’t get energon. Tho that’s how I would see it
EXACTLY! The Autobots almost always didn't attack but were at the ready for one, the decepticons always attacked first
Optimus always gives them the chance to surrender and leave, they never take it lol
@@2bdaqueen268if they didn’t get killed by autobots they will be killed by Megatron himself, also they hated autobots not because MEGATRON hates autobots but because all deciptcons hate autobots after they did to them in age of rust when MEGATRON tried to free them while autobots were spoiled bots and live their most expensive life meanwhile deciptcons were fighting each other to live .
A big shame to use deciptcons logo and siding with autobots who were treating them like slaves , HAVE YOU FORGOT WHAT WAS MEGATRONG FIGHTING FOR !?!! , “heroes create villains , not the opposite , and villains are the main heroes but corrupted” -Robert Hentzo
@@gracestingray he was fighting for power for himself bruh, he just shaped it as a revolution, he was willing to wipe out a race because he deemed them lesser and he felt he was entitled to rule their planet, his whole motto is “the strong survive the weak perish” Megatron Is not a hero in any way and Optimus didn’t create him, he made a monster out of himself, also none of the autobots we see defend the caste system or are said to have had slaves Optimus himself agreed with everything Megatron said, you “the decepticons were right” sayers are odd considering they committed mass genocide and poisoned their own planet at that point it doesn’t matter what they supposedly once fought for, also none of this even has to do with my comment
Your videos always give me new points of view to consider with TFP. I've never considered this side of the Autobots, although I can sort of understand why despite their idealism they resort to war crimes; after dealing with enemies doing scrap like raising the dead, at the very least some rules of war have probably flown out of the window in favor of (higher chances of) surviving to fight another day. It's too bad that it's not addressed by the human characters (such as Fowler) more, though. It would have made some interesting episodes to have the Autobots confront their hypocrisy.
It's not addressed since the vast majority of what he has stated in this video are not war crimes just some morally dubious actions that are permissible in war
Not all of em but the majority
This is mostly biased to the Decepticons "i defend the bad guys im so cool." Ahh video
Remember when Bulkhead just tore the very spark off a Vehicon, which from a Cybertronian perspective is ripping someone's heart off?
Transformers is damn brutal man.
13:33 the reason Ratchet wasn’t punished for was probably down to him being the only Autobot medic and it’s unlikely they’ll get another medic in time, let alone for one to even still exist
It still not an excuse , optimus can heal them like he did to ratchet , also his punishment can be less effective by making him go and serve every human as an ambulance form and call him when they really need him or just exile him later on one of Cybertron moons
@@gracestingrayand you think that telling him this won't cause resentment? Maybe after hearing this, Ratchet just leaves to avoid Saif punishment? In a desperate situation where they are outnumbered, they kinda have to weigh the consequences of punishment against morality. Sure its probably morally better to punish him but its not worth the risk of him leaving. Moral reasoning should never come into play during wartime; the situation is too dire for any morals.
The problem with a lot of these is that the Vehicons in most circumstances listed, are what are called “Valid targets”. Shooting them while they’re already incapacitated is a war crime, but bombing or raiding Infrastructure like the mines or actual military installations like their ship is valid.
Secondly, the spy; In warfare, Spies are given no quarter. You can do with them as you wish, including using them against their own allies.
Thirdly, RC was entirely justified in murdering Starscream on the spot after his numerous fake-surrenders. Perfidy is a war crime in and of itself, and is punishable by death.
*Arcee
Also was Screamer ever tried for it?
@@BlooMonkiMan Perfidy is the kind’ve crime you can get shot on the spot for.
Plus the shooting of megaton would have been an assassination and also not a war crime as far as I know
Wasn’t that Starscream’s first “fake-surrender”?
@@hebiweaponsguy4842 still perfidy.
It's interesting because in war, if a medical officer fires a rifle at the enemy they are no longer seen as a medic and can be shot at. So in a way the same could be said for the workers. If the operation is sanctioned by a military power, any personnel who fires a weapon is considered a standard solider.
On the topic of vehicons being non-combatants.
If the mine is a legitimate target and they attempt to defend the mine then it should stand to reason that if they don't surrender or at least flee then they are combatants.
Also remember Bumblebee wasn't warrior class but a scout for most of the series yet he was a combatant.
Torture isnt the best, good advice, but now I need another way to get my housemates to tell me where they put the cookies.
(Jk, although I found that bit enlightening)
Now I'm just imagining you tickling your housemates with a feather while interrogating them about the cookies lol
OH MY GOSH THE MINER VEHICONS ARE SO LITTLE!😍😍 We really need keychain plushies of these guys.
And also their very dumb
Makeshift knew the location of their base. And as we saw, the base would be easily destroyed if the deceptions knew where it was.
16:59
Also, torture victims will often just say whatever they think the torturer wants to hear, because the torturer will only stop after they receive information they (want to) believe.
Holy shit, a war crime video that actually covers actual war crimes instead of "hurr duurrr Optimus killed a fleeing combatant who has not shown any sign of surrender, war crimez!!1!"
Honestly the stuff they commit here is no where near on the same level of some of the war crimes the Autobots commit in IDW
True. The positive sentiment that the Autobots did try their war criminals and locked them up as punishment does feel a bit tarnished by the fact Prowl nearly covered it up. I mean, he came pretty close to destroying the chip with all the records, worried about what would happen with the reveal of these crimes. And of course in that continuity, America commits hypocrisy by making a secret alliance with the Autobots. Sure, we also see China and North Korea make secret deals with Combaticons and Predacons, not to mention we know an Autobot-Human Alliance is a great and wonderful thing, but in universe it just looks like if Japan made its own nuclear missiles after what happened at the end of the Pacific War.
Still war crimes
“War crimes, you say? No matter how many policies you put on paper, in reality, there are no rights and wrongs in war. War itself is a crime. War cannot be justified.” - (Thisuri Wanniarachchi)
Not killing Makeshift is like Batman not killing the Joker. We know he is going to come back.
8:24 They killed makeshift because he knew the location of their base and that was a loose end they couldn’t leave alive
9:00 you go on about arcee killing defenseless Megatron, but just keep in mind Megatron ripped bumblebees voice box out, tried to resurrect undead deceptions. Took the deceased arm of a dead prime, and primus knows how many other war crimes he committed off camera. I side with arcee completely on that one. If the roles were reversed, Megatron would have killed her without a second thought.
2:42 the moment individual takes weapon to engage you, he becomes a viable target. Eg: medic is not a viable target, but if he starts to shoot/resists capture, you can shoot him. (It's more complicated than that, but you get the point).
6:25 it's not a war crime, it maybe is brutal, but he is still a combatant.
6:39 he was trying to shoot the guy, so no, he is still a target
6:45 it isn't immoral, many soldiers would rather die than get caught if their enemy is known for torture of POWs, taking the enemys who are trying to capture you along is an honorable action
I'm not going to continue this list because I'm too lazy, i'll just make a summary: most people don't understand what is a war crime, and that civilian morals don't apply for wartime. Some things may be immoral, but allowed (eg. napalm). Some may be illigal, but morally right (eg. when nazi concentration camps were liberated many american and soviet soldiers would execute the guards after seeing what they did). War is a complicated thing, and sometimes to fight for good you have to make evil things... Why do i start to sound like capitan Price from reboot of modern warfare?
One thing that I had thought quite frequently is, if Megatron was so terrible and evil for all the pain, death and destruction to countless individuals, then what exactly does that make Optimus for allowing it to carry on for such a long period of time, especially when Ratchet made it clear that he had plenty of opportunities to put a stop to it long ago.
Meanwhile in the bayverse, optimus is executing sentinel prime and megatron
Megatron killed jazz and sentinel killed ironhide which is a good enough reason on its own but if you want more, both of them being responsible for more pain and destruction Optimus could ever think of. THEY LITERALLY TRIED TO ENSLAVE HUMANITY
@@matrixpictures7799 I don't blame ya but as the leader of the autobots optimus should have spared them and imprison them
Megatron in DOTM was about to shoot Optimus prime when Optimus said time to find out
Thus rendering him a combatant and his death would not be a war crime
I know it might be a trend for video analysis but aside from the weird deal with vehicons I would excuse every one of these as relatively reasonable, accept for cases that would greatly endanger the team like going for vengence.
I really really love that Transformers Prime can just let these dark sides slip with their characters it makes them feel very real, like in their shoes protocol or not you'd feel very similar.
Also in _Predacons Rising_ the Autobots use vehicon POWs as forced labor to rebuild Cybertron, keep them (and Knockout) handcuffed even amongst themselves in a locked room, and when Knockout demands they be allowed to bathe Autobots treat it as some sort of a frivolous demand and don't let them.
Knockout is later taken as a defector propably because he has a name, while there's no word on the vehicons and none are seen later in the Aligned continuity (except mercenary Shadelock in RID15 who _might_ be a vehicon).
Shadelock is absolutely a Vehicon, and a miner design at that.
There were several vehicons in season 2 of RID. Post-war, many vehicons were put on the prison ship Alchemor and shipped into space, where Megatronus smashed it and caused it to crash.
Ratchet taking drugs in the form of Synthetic Energon is….. yay Ratchet did take drugs
2:42 to be fair the miners opened fire first on the Autobots and so lethal force was authorised in defence. In the case of Bulkhead refusing to rescue a deception while that is not nice to do, He does have the right to say he does not want too and does not try to stop the others from attempting it and I think we can all understand how he feels if that was our arch enemy or someone we despised so much. What he did to clone Starscream and that soldier though was overblown murder though and could have been done more cleaner.
Wheeljack yeah he was over top and to be fair even the show admits he is an extremist compared to the main team (Bulkhead maybe not included). Megatron and allowing him to terminate Starscream in the mine by Arcee I see as more her accepting that she must keep the humans safe first and being realistic that she can't take Megatron on and likely it would only end in her, Jack's and still Starscream's deaths. Arcee's poor prisoner handling of Starscream was just wrong though.
Ratchet was wrong to torture of course, I actually think Without Optimus Prime the team would become like shadows to the Deceptions in methods of warfare and morals. And the Show I think knows that and wants to show that.
What's funny is that even with all these wrongful actions and crimes done by the Autobots, they're still moral and good than the Movie versions of themselves in Michael Bay's universe, Optimus especially. But this show does at least show that even good can become tainted and resort to more veil methods in war. War makes monsters of us all sadly.
I don't want to sound like a Autobot Defender no matter what, but Optimus pays me too well as a PR man to not defend them.
Bayverse goes way over the top even though I grew up with it.
War doesn't determine who is right
Only who is left
3:07 This is a controversial issue here, since the mining class will defend the mine with weapons and shoot, it is unknown how many Decepticons accualy were combatants I doubt anyone in the mine wouldn't have heard hundreds of shots and probably all the Decepticons were ready to fight
For a fun little short have you considered doing a decepticon version of this but instead of it being an in depth breakdown its just a Yakaty Sax montage for everytime the decepticons commit a war crime?
I love the ending of Wheeljack committee war crimes with children that made me snort
IT'S A WAR
Of course they're going to kill their enemies,
And how the miners aren't combatants when they literally shoot at the autobots every time they see them ?
it's troubling how many people don't know what a war crime is....
Nuremberg trials but Optimus
I don't know if Bulkhead should be given a pass or a harder punishment due to his past in the Wreckers... It could be said that him leaving and joining Prime means he is trying to change... But he was in the wreckers the wildcard autobot group taking on jobs the other bots refused to take for one reason or another and this show in Wheeljacks and Bulkheads behaviour.
"It's not a war crime if you win"
10:52 That episode is after Rock Bottom.
I was once part of a joke group who based ourselves off of the autobots and decepticons of TFP, and I chose to join cons, when it came to prisoners we would keep ours alive, first one of our commanders autobots got they disected him
"By the Allspark, I was only following orders."
There is a chance the Autobots might (Keyword: Might) have been more moral during the earlier years of the war, but the longer it went on the more extreme they became due to bitterness and such. Not to mention, it is likely the Decepticons only started doing war crimes of their own when less extreme methods weren't making any changes, so they got more extreme, saw it actually did something, and it just spiraled out of control as they got more extreme, and more deranged and unhinged cybertronians joined them for less noble reasons (Just to inflict harm).
While it is a bad thing the Autobots committed their own war crimes, I don't mind it as it makes them feel more 'human' in that they're like us. Lapses of judgement, bouts of hypocrisy, acting in the moment, clouded by emotions, etc. etc.
From what I know, it's the reverse, most Autobots in the early days were privelieged assholes benefiting from the Caste System, the ones we see today, along with a few others, are the more moral ones, who have had millions of years to ponder.
Glad to see you're back Kumquat
0:05 who is we I don’t speak French the autobots enslaved decepticons before the war.
The miners are so tiny and little wish there were plush key chains of them.🥰
I can't help but imagine if the Transformers were turned into Pokémon, the Miners would be Sableye.
For some reason you mentioning plush key chains of the Miners made me think of Sableye. XD
This is such an interesting topic as many series have their heroes call out villainy, but sometimes stoop to the level of said villains. In Flash, the heroes will often discourage killing but move past situations where a villain is killed by their actions. As you said though, it shows the moral complexity of the heroes not always sticking to their morals, which while can lead to actions that are unjustified, also show the fact that being a heroic character does not mean they can't go down dark paths.
However, I wanna add, Optimus' line about Autobots hurting when all other means are exhausted is... is quite far from the truth at times.
Hurting any part of Cybertronian body is not that terrible as at humans, they can fix everything on themselves. But I agree, chopping an arm off must be terrible.
I was just thinking of making a list of war crimes the Autobot committed in TFP days ago, the timing is just
1. 3:10 the Vehicons in Darkness rising raised weapons and engaged first, they were no longer non-combatants
2. 4:09 Bulkhead has no obligation to assist Breakdown; this isn't a war crime.
3. 5:30 this is ABSOLUTELY excusable. Starscream engaged first and did not show any indication of surrender.
4. 6:35 The action is immoral, but It doesn't make sense to expect an Autobot to care about being considerate to a Decepticon (or vice versa)
5. 8:20 The Decepticons are enemy combatants who were just about to go through the ground bridge and murder all of them, using an explosive to kill them isn't a moral issue.
6. 8:50 the Vehicon opened fire and was thus deemed an active combatant by Magnus.
7. 10:00 morally speaking, the Autobots are better than the Decepticons is every way imaginable; and they Autobots do not have any sort of obligation to assist Starscream here.
8: 14:10 Neither the Autobot code, nor a "Cybertronian Hypocratic Oath" have been established in the Aligned Continuity. Ratchet has no obligation to assist Starscream.
A lot of the arguments presented in the video hinge on the belief that the Autobots must wage a fair/morally unambiguous war against the Decepticons, which simply cannot happen in a conflict ; also (no offense) you seem to be biased towards the Decepticons, and often tend ignore the actions done by them that ultimately lead to the "war crimes" committed by the Autobots.
13:27 the orginal script had Ratchet blaming Optimus for Elita-1's death, causing Optimus to lose his cool and beat him. It was changed because the writers ultimately didn't want to pull a Bayverse on Ratchet.
In the defence of makeshift’s death, he did know their location thanks to miko. They could have just killed him, yes, but taking out a bunch while securing your base’s location from being leaked is basically 2-birds-1-stone.
To be far to Optimus 13:20 he rarely ever loses his cool even when the autobots where in danger
All the characters are horribly dehumanizing at the vehicons.
I think the vehicons are Aligned's cold-constructs because it makes sense for mass-produced artificial people to look identical. That also explains why they're with the Decepticons regardless of their treatment (it isn't as if the Autobots would be any better to them, and Megatron originally promised them liberation).
5:31 this one really got me
because we had an episode where Arcee seeks for revenge but releases how hatred turning her into something horrible, especially in the eyes of her friends. And this ends with wise words of Optimus; obviously show gives us a good moral about it.
And then later Bulk just kills Screamer (he didn't know it was a fake). I was so mad about it, like why Arcee can't but Bulkhead is allowed to?? Wasn't show supposed to mean its a bad thing to do? It just breaks it's own points! This was obviously made to keep show in tense but still..
Even the most good and honorable people have to make a few omelettes to protect the innocent.
Also, notice how most of these crimes have Starscream involved. Honestly, Starscream being a casualty would be pretty justifiable since he is such a cheating scumbag and a threat to both sides.
TFP Wheeljack is just as smart as G1 Wheeljack, just more ninja like.
It’s not a war crime if you win. So therefore the Autobots in the aligned continuity have no war crimes.
In the IDW continuity they did define some of the war crimes set up by the Tyrest Accord, they covered some of them during Megatron’s trial and the MTMTE series.
It would be cool to see a series deal with the difference between what humans and transformers consider war crimes. Like, human military allies holding their support ransom when the Autobots prepare to do something we would consider unethical. The Autobots resenting that they're being strangled by human ethics while the Decepticons aren't. Human characters who come to support the Autobots way of warfare, while Autobot characters are swayed over to the humans point of view. The inevitable fallout when an Autobot decides the need is too great to play by human rules, and their military contact realises they treat their people's deepest values like something to be humoured until it becomes inconvenient.
War crimes are defined by the side that won.
That’s pretty much it, for humans and Cybertronians.
Also, the Autobots apparently all hate each other and fall into infighting without Optimus, as seen in the Orion Pax arc.
I would like to point out that the autobots are greatly outnumbered and they had to make sure that the humans are safe just like their comandres
i feel like if the autobots followed the geneva convention they wouldnt have made it to earth
*Kumquat: "I do not hate the Autobots."*
*Also Kumquat: Spends over 19 minutes LITERALLY hating on the Autobots.*
*Guess what, Polyanna? THIS IS A WAR. Nice things don't happen in war. It's true! And even the good guys have to do unpleasant things if they want to survive. Life isn't that black and white, so you can just shove your unrealistic expectations because they would literally hand the Decepticons victory on a silver platter. Sometimes unpleasant shit NEEDS to be done, even by the good guys.*
*Christ almighty...*
EK is not hating on the Autobots, just showing that they too do bad things like the Decepticons do, like you said, so people don't think they are saints or anything, believing their own words saying they are good and the Cons are bad.
You can like a character or group but still criticize their actions, criticizing does not equal hating.
Heck, showing that the Autobots do immoral things too even makes the show more likable and realistic, and in an odd way might even make some people like the Autobots even more, just like how many people like bad guys despite knowing what they do is wrong.
@@Rubywing4 Even with all the bad things the Autobots do, I would still side them. They're the only Cybertronians which respect other life forms such as humans. Ok, I want to ask you something else. Are you a Transformers expert? Are 12,7×99mm (50 Cal BMG) and 20×102 bullets deadly for Cybertronians in Transformers: Prime?
@@dreisiglps2451 Um, I'm sort of a Transformers expert, but not a weapons expert, not even an intermediate, so idk.
I only know revolver, rifle, bazooka, machine gun and pew pew laser gun.
I don't know number guns or abbreviation guns :P
Though I would think most Earth weapons would rather sting and chip away at their armor slowly and not be deadly unless the same areas are repeatedly hit for many minutes or perhaps an hour, idk.
Something like a bazooka though might do more damage and could be dangerous for a bot already injured, and could even do decent damage on a healthy bot. Tanks definitely could be deadly if hit in the right spots or enough times, one shot might not be deadly, but more would.
But yes, although I do have more favorites among the Decepticons, I admit I would also prefer to be with the Autobots, coz there are also too many crazies among the cons and I wouldn't feel safe with them, probably.
@@Rubywing4 Ah ok! Thanks for replying.
Let’s just remember this really isn’t a traditional war but more of a black ops missions sim lair to the Cold War. As long as the war crimes are not found out then it was fine.