I liked Lanfears character. I think she along with Asmodean helped humanize the forsaken, make them more like actual human beings. Some of the other forsaken just seemed a bit two dimensional and over the top evil and driven by simple desire for power. With Lanfear I never knew where I had had her or what her motives or plans were. As you mention there were even times where I almost thought she might turn back to the light again. So while her plots and plans might not have changed a whole lot in the grand scheme I felt she was much more interesting than say Moridin. He was fairly one dimensional. It is kinda funny that she impacted the events as little as she did, but made the reading of the story more interesting for me... because I often had a feeling that she could have made a huge difference.
Lars Funck yeah agree. Her and Asmodean were very interesting characters, Asmodean being my favorite “bad guy”. I think a woman scorned is very believable and relatable. Her actions were complex maybe she didn’t even know how she truly felt. Hell I know men and women that have acted like her when heart was broken (minus the magical badassery of course)
You mention the angreal Lanfear has in the confrontation before going into the red stone ter'angreal. The angreal is from Rhuidean. Moiraine places it on the wagon the day prior [FoH Ch. 32], knowing Lanfear will take it in order to fulfill the future she saw in which Rand is able to progress (the other two possible futures being Rand dying and Lanfear stealing Rand away and turning him). The moment before Moiraine goes through the doorway she claws it away from Lanfear, which I believe is how she comes into possession of it. I really like the angreal because it seems to me to represent Moiraine. It's an acrobat that appears to be bending backwards, but when you look closer you see his hands and feet are bound. Moiraine was fulfilling her role in fighting the Shadow, but was also bound by it. Interesting video. I've never scrutinized Lanfear before and it was fun to think about her over the whole of the series. I agree that she's ultimately under utilized, but I appreciate how much of her we get. It's also fun to see one of the Forsaken who is so clearly in it for themselves, as all the rest, whether they're truly devout or not, don't even consider going against the Great Lord in any meaningful way. I never even considered when I was reading the series that she would come to the Light though. That's not her.
I always wanted her to come back to the light as well! Would have been great to see some last sacrifice from her. I also would have liked to see more of her back story focusing on how she was treated as an aes sedai (considering she had immense power but was not given that much honour among their ranks) as a reason for propelling her to the dark one and less focus on being a scorned lover.
Lanfear is easily one of my favorite characters in the series and my favorite of the Forsaken. I love when she laughs at Rahvin and calls him a pig casually and Rahvin does nothing. That is real power when you can act brazen and the most powerful Forsaken do nothing.
10:42 - "It's unkown where she acquired it (the ivory bracelet angreal) but it could have been from the Stone of Tear". Incorrect. In the Fires of Heaven, Moiraine is revealed to have placed the ivory bracelet on the wagon with the stone ter'angreal gateway to the Eelfinn, the night before Lanfear's attack. She knew Lanfear would use it, and that Moiraine herself would need it later.
@@RedOphiuchus The Sharans? Yeah that was actually why he flipped he was the 2nd best at swords, the power, command etc. So when he was a general of the light he got pissy and jealous of Lewis. He then flipped to the DO over jealously of the Dragon. The reason he had feelings for the Sharans had nothing to do with caring for them. He just felt that by being acknowledged as their leader and savior. He was finally getting the recognition he "deserved". If anything Demandred was the most selfish of all the Forsaken eye turned to evil. Over literally being butthurt that he was only the 2nd best Aes Sedi.
@@michaelhowze8198 I think that's definitely a valid interpretation. And you're absolutely spot on about why he turned. But we also know so little about his time in Shara except that I'm pretty sure some forsaken react that he seems different. Maybe I'm misremembering that. Either way I think your interpretation is fair but I also think it's possible that his time in Shara could have changed him. Not enough to change the outcome of events, he certainly still has his desire to best Lews Therin, but a side of him that genuinely cares about the Sharan people would be interesting.
Elan was deceived by the dark one. He was lied to in believing the end result of the Wheels turns would be the dark one winning. So, he gave himself to the dark one
I agree, I feel like Lanfear was under served. If she had attempted to return to the light, or been more successful in her schemes she would have been more interesting. In the first part of the series she was by far the most interesting of the forsaken, but later it feels like she became a stereo type. I suppose Jordan wanted the reader to see that all the chosen were simply just too selfish and that was the reason they were chosen to begin with, but given the depth of the characters for the light it felt a little off balance having almost all the forsaken be so one dimensional. It's one of my only gripes about the story. I feel like Lanfear was a missed opportunity. That goes a little for the shadow in general, the Seanchan kind of steal the spotlight away from the forsaken and Fain, for much of the series I felt like the forsaken were too predictable and not very threatening and often defeated too easily, why the Seanchan seem to roll over everything and become more of threat than the shadow.
For me Ishamesl (DO will win eventually) and Demandred (Why is Lewis better st every damn thing screw him) have the most realistic backgrounds. The first bec5hes mathematically correct and the 2nd because people do in fact do messed up crap over jealously.
as with many other characters (particularly Mazrim Taim) it seems like Robert Jordan started out with a plan to do interesting things with Lanfear and then later decided he didn't have time to develop these characters and plots because he thought we needed to spend eight books looking at events from the perspectives of non-essential characters who have bit parts and no consequence whatsoever.
I think Lanfear freaking out over Aviendha is in character. With Lews Therin, they were both powerful, but he was the more powerful of the two. She couldn't hold onto him. Fast forward thousands of years. She finds the Dragon has been reborn. He's new to his powers and is still basically a nobody from a farming village when they first meet. After manipulating him and helping him and trying to lure him to her, she STILL can't keep ahold of him even as a farm boy still growing in his power. That would very much cause this selfish, power hungry woman to snap. Maybe a little out of jealousy, but more from being royally pissed that someone else is encroaching on the power that she believes should be hers.
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Sanderson says that Lanfear was not killed by Perrin. He was under her power, and didn't see reality. He was under compulsion. So Lanfear is alive at the end of the book. I say that with confidence because I saw Sanderson in a video and he said she is alive at the end.
I think you only die forever in the World of Dreams if you are between lives. Since only a handful of animals and the Heroes of the Horn live there, they are the only ones who have that risk.
During the battle Lanfear has with Alivia, she thinks that it is impossible for Alivia to be so powerful. She thinks that it is not possible for ANY woman to be more powerful than herself. I took this to mean that she had received a gift from the Finns to be the most powerful a woman could be in the power.
I think her introduction in The Hunt For The Horn was the best characterisation of her. After which I think Jordan lost interest in her as a main protagonist. I think she was in book 2 to tempt Rand and tease the reader. Also she was there to give Lews Therin's backstory and push the plot forward. When Brandon Sanderson took over, I am not sure he had much of an idea of what to do with and just included her in a sub-plot to offer a conclusion for her story ark.
Lanfear: Worst Ex in History.... As for the note on the audio book narrators... they are both genuinely good and a few notches up from most audio book narrators. They play with their voices just enough to make every character distinct, seriously outstanding work from both of them.
So... Lanfear lives at the end of the series, it was verified by Brandon Sanderson. She was so sneaky she even slipped one by Nae'blis. Hopefully that changes your opinion of her. She legit orchestrated the only favorable outcome for her.
Interviewer: Lanfear, according to your resume your last job was in R and D for Aes Sedai during the age of legends. then, it appears that you took some time off. Can you help us understand this 3,000 year gap in your employment history? Lanfear: ...*begins weaving balefire*...
Perhaps it was my head cannon but I always thought that each of the forsaken was meant to represent a different type of evil and I think Lanfear is a great examination of narcissism. I also think that Lanfear being fairly incompetent is both part of that as well as being something that you couldn't do in a series with a single main antagonist but made here interesting both in the lore of the series, by showing that being a powerful channeler doesn't mean you'll be good at everything. And from what I can see the only one who really thinks that Lanfear is the best at anything except looking good is Lanfear.
Love your videos dude, I’m only on book 5 of WOT atm but it’s already my favorite fantasy series, it’s great to see some TH-cam videos on these amazing books.
Lanfear, to me was way more than one dimensional. Yes she was obsessed with Rand. It made her more tragic than anything else. She kept trying to find some one, anyone, to love her. She was looking for validation. I think if Rand had shown her love then she might have turned from the dark one.
The Angreal Lanfear uses came from Rheudian. There are a couple references to it in Moraines point of view. It was in the wagon that Lanfear climbed up on during her confrontation with Rand. Moraine had moved it there the night before when she was checking on the wagons.
If you don't think there are women out there that are like Lanfear then you've been lucky to never run across one, believe me they exist and when you realize that you are with one it is not fun. I know men can be the same way as well, all I'm saying is she actually does make a believable villain and people with that type of personality are out there. She was written far better than you realize.
I've known a few Lanfear types...hoping they change their ways, but never doing it. I think that helps make her character more believable...I would have liked to know more of her backstory before she was introduced (I assumed she was evil like the others, but she was fueled by jealousy and a thirst for power). I would wager that her character was based on Lilith from Jewish mythology. The first mate of Adam, tossed aside because of her thirst for power...Adam is then given Eve. Lilith is then driven by jealousy and a thirst for power...
She helped open the OG bore she actually might not have been evil. Its possible that she had to choose to join the DO or die right then and there. Just speculation
Your video is spot on. Completely agree with the fact that she should have had a last ditch attempt at redemption. If you could ever criticise anything in the wot, its villains would be the easiest to point fingers at.
The angreal is from the wagons, it's the one Moraine place there that morning for Lanfier to find. Though I don't think Moraine new it was an angreal at the time. Also Lanfier didn't just freak out about the news he had slept with Avienda, she had found him in bed with Min and seen him in the world of dreams with Min, Avienda and Elaine. I think she made some assumptions about that which is why she stated "you let another women touch you again!" or something like that.
IMHO the forsaken as a group fell flat. Powerful channelers beaten by literally a group of children. The main characters were young but the forsaken with hundreds of years of experience, and knowledge from an advanced culture couldn't handle a handful of 20 something's farm boys and girls. I enjoyed the books, but the forsaken were largely a joke.
The fact is that there are extremely talented, intelligent women who are also bent. I am reminded of that lady astronaut Capt. Lisa Marie Nowak that drove to Orlando Florida all night long in a diaper, and got charged with attempted murder after attacking a woman in the Orlando airport over a male astronauts affection....it happens. I have no problem with Lanfear as a character.
So interested in your videos, but cant watch most of them because of the "RED". I am on book 5 now. I have a long way to go I guess. Please do make more "Yellow" and "White" videos. No pressure :P. And this maybe asking for too much but can we expect book specific spoiler ratings as well? Like spoilers for people who have not read beyond book 3 or book 9 etc. Thanks
Just a heads up I’m pretty sure moraine left the bracelet angreal next to the doorway to the realm of the Finn. It was all part of her vision and it was originally among the other objects of power in Rhuidean.
Can only agree. Lanfear could have been used much better. Her vanity was her downfall and in that way very in character, but that's also where I see the most unfulfilled potential. She could have been much more. Either a better Forsaken or potentially even turning back to the Light. Give her another love line to pursue, one she doesn't want but can't help follow. Make her realize that there is more than just Power in the world. Or let her embrace it completely, trying to get on the good side of Morridin, who abuses it to strike deeply at the forces of the Light. I would always argue that Rand would have lost to Morridin at the end if it hadn't been for Callandor and its secrets. But she was too fixated on the Light figures and got burned.
So in the wheel of time is the concept of afterlife, the idea that bad people just stop existing, unless the dark one chooses to resurrect them in a new body?
My take on Lanfear was that she was RJ's take on the "Obsessive Ex-Girlfriend" - The archetypal trope of the beautiful woman who always got what she wanted until she didn't, at which point she goes absolutely mental - The type of person who obsessively fixates on something they cannot have, and abandons reason in their efforts to obtain it. I always wondered if she was secretly based on someone RJ knew from his past, either an ex of his or the ex of a friend. The way he portrayed so many women as strong, independent, intelligent and wise individuals, and went so far as to shine a positive light on matriarchal societies gets him a pass on any misogynist accusation, but Lanfear was that cautionary tale every guy knows about in real life. Of course the male analog exists in real life too, and I think would have been interesting if RJ had made one of the male people who was obsessive center around a wheel-bound female (or male?) as a mirror to Lanfear's brand of crazy. Not a direct criticism per-se, but casting a woman as the only person who goes WAY too far because of romantic infatuation and obsession just isn't interesting anymore.
I agree with your analysis. She would've been a far stronger character if she had returned to the Light. Of course, that would mean that she would be extremely similar to Darth Vader, but still, it was a missed opportunity.
I don’t think she cared for good or bad. Just glory and power. Started with Lews Therin, got rebuffed, so she went to the dark one. Then when Lews was reincarnated, she shifted to him for another chance. She was consistent in her motives.
Lanfear always struck me as actually in love with Therin, but unable to trust anyone, and always grasping for power. Something a lot of people never think about is WHY Lanfear is so focused on sex and power. People who've been abused often grow up promiscuous and power hungry, in an effort to be safe. Then she gets a great life, is in a relationship with Therin, things are great, and then he stabs her in the back. She loses everything because of the man she loves. After that she's broken, love and hate to screwed up in her head she can't tell one from the other.
Great stuff. The only thing that needs updating is the fact Lanfear is alive. Her death was grossly exaggerated. Ask Brandon Sanderson if you don't believe me.
The bracelet angreal came from Rhuidean. Moiraine carefully placed it next to the doorway, aided by knowledge from the aiel's rings ter'. Lanfear only possessed it for a few minutes. Great nuggets of info in there too. Particularly live the conclusions that can be inferred from definite events. Lanfear watching Rand & Asmodean Barlow in Rhuidean, her "schizophrenia" putting her "claws"to his neck. Rand's thinks something like "a viper, a viper is madly in love with me. No WOT character is one-dimensional
I think generally I would have made the Forsaken a bit darker and appear much more powerful. That would have marked them more as evil, and it would have made Rands transition even more powerful. It kind of bothered me that most of the Forsaken were more self centered than really evil, they don't have to go like full Cruela and kill a puppy but.... Even in Lanfear's case she could been so interesting a bit more malicious playing both sides trying to usurp the Dark One or Lewis Therin's power....
I agree that her character would've been more interesting if she'd come back to the Light. There could've been a very interesting arc from then on as we wouldn't know if it was a true conversion or not. Then, sacrificing herself to save Rand would've made her tragic story complete. (Not unlike Anakin Skywalker.)
I theorize that Lanfear was working to assist the side of the light the whole time. To overthrow the dark one, and rule over the world with Rand at her side. I believe that the only part of her plan that failed was making Rand fall in love with her. Lanfear is one of my favorite characters. I too thought that she might turn back to the light after she was reincarnated, and I'm glad she didn't.
Don't forget all the forsaken spent 3000 years obsessing about specific things contributing to their apparent shallow nature. 3000 years is enough to make someone seriously insane.
I normally think you are spot on. But I definitely don't see the point that Lanfear is some sexist meme. Her greatest motivation was power. She saw Lews Therin as a means to that end. Sure she might have had some affection for him, but in the end her character was a case study in what the pursuit of power can do to someone. She only wanted Rand back so that they could "challenge the creator." I think that is the tragedy of her character. We want her to show some human emotion, love and real loss with sacrifice (a la Snape) but she never does ... and that is the whole point. She is barely human. She lost her humanity in her insatiable lust for power/dominion. She almost gains it back at the very end but simply can't bring herself to give up the one thing that has come to define her: power. She literally has nothing else. If all her character was based on was spurned love, she would have been far less of a tragedy. But because her lust for power came to fully define her and erase any humanity she had left, she is ultimately left powerless to gain back that humanity. Its a cruel irony. The one that sought the most power became the most helpless.
The most shocking thing to me was, that she saw even the Dark One as nothing more than a means to an end... She cared nothing for the light or the shadow all she wanted was power, and perhaps the way the pattern swirled around the ta'veren was the closest a human could get to power. By the end Lews Therin (no not Rand he was 99% Lews Therin by then) could bend the pattern to his will which is something I think Lanfear knew he would be able to and wanted that power to herself. Later trying to settle with Perrin's amasing control of the dream world when it became obvious she could not control Lews Therin.
Fun fact. Evil Lords are better rulers then the "Good" ones. Since on the Evil side authority and influence is all merit based. Do a good job and get rewarded. Good guys are just effin corrupt. Lanfear being the first Forsaken still didn't end up as the Nae'Blis. Heck, she was the one who freed their new boss.
Thanks so much Erisian! Unfortunately I’m not sure how you could, but if you are interested in supporting the channel, I’d invite you to take a look at my Patreon page. The link is in the description. I really appreciate you watching the content and I’m glad you’re enjoying it!
Yeah, I hope the flesh Lanfear out and give her more nuance in show. Less glomming on men with power, and more her standing on her own. She's a powerful, and by all accounts intelligent woman. She created the Bore. She was the first Forsaken. She's hyped up so much early on, and that scene at the end of the Great Hunt was had a quiet menace, but in the end she's just a stupid, small minded woman. Give her menace. Make her scary as hell. She is one of the most powerful channelers in the books, a woman who was a couple centuries old, who was born into a time of great technology. Keep her mysterious. And for the light's sake, let her stand on her own, rather than clinging to Rand like a parasite. If you want to humanize her, give her a soft spot for Rand. Maybe she's trying to turn him because she doesn't want to have to kill him. Make her attempt to kill Aviendha a tactical decision, rather than an emotional one.
That swings Lanfear more to Semirhage if she attacks Aviendha through a tactical choice. She has to be that ex, it is part of her backstory. The Knife Of Dreams shows that Semirhage's attack was of a tactical motive, and would have succeeded but for Cadusaine's paralis net, and LTT's memories.
Lanfear is 👎🏻bad news from beginning to end. Perrin is right, someone has to do the dirty work for Rand, to cover his back. It was so so close, the dark one almost succeeded in winning the final battle, in the Memories of Light.👏👏👏👏
This is a great analysis, though I heavily disagree with your conclusions on her character. You may dislike tropes that frame a woman as emotional, but history, especially mythology which is the basis for TWoT, finds that women (and men both) can remain highly emotional even at the heights of power. In fact, that is the quintessential property that The Dark One seeks in his acolytes: self obsession. The self obsessed are inherently weak to anything that would undermine their world view. That her world view is that she is the most desirable woman for a multitude of reasons, it is of course that being spurned by the one person she considers her equal would throw her into a state of deepest turmoil. This isn't merely a cat fight. This is someone else laying claim to her domain and her unleashing the beast within to assert her dominance. There are countless examples of powerful women doing this throughout history. Lanfear is very much a believable and human character, not a caricature.
Lanfear could have been the most interesting Forsaken because of her intellect and range of skills . That the other Forsaken underestimated her could have increased her ablilty to influence Randland.. But the "you are mine Lews Therin" mantra was sexist to the point of ridiculousness. Yoy need strong villians to make a compelling story . I hope the Amazon series deals with this flaw in an otherwise classic series.
I am glad she didn’t come back to the light. She was selfish, egotistical, arrogant , having her repent would not have been true to her character. I think for the most part Lanfear was the flashy bad guy. The one out front that does the yelling and telling you how important they are while really you are just a distraction for the clever bad guys in the background.
Hey man I love your channel! Can you do a character analysis soon of Shaidar Haran? He's a really intriguing character deserving of your expert analysis!
One of the most interesting characters of the wheel of time early when we weren't sure of where she stud but yeah not that interesting when she was brought back
I disagree 100% with your opinion on her character, I think that she was a great character. She was humanized, but her caricature was 100% accurate. She was a woman who lusted for power, and wanted to attach herself to powerful men. She was beautiful, and used that to gain their attention. How is ANY of that something out of the realm of reality? That's what real life women do. I'm glad that you've never had a crazy over sexualized woman doing shit to you, but bald gingers probably don't have that much experience with the crazy hot bitches.
I disagree with your about Lanfear. I've met people like her who absolutely lose their minds over the person they are into not being as into them. Also Robert Jordan's objective with all of the forsaken was to show the flaws of humanity and each forsaken seems to symbolize a particular flaw. Obsessions like her's I think are absolutely very human, not just the childish kind. Yes people have made the sexist memes but people will meme about anything. Would we be saying the same thing if she was instead sexually obsessed with Elaine or some other female character?
this is really great, but hopefully in later videos you have learned to talk WAY slower as you are just throwing all this stuff at us and not giving a moment to absorb. breathe Nae'Blis, pause, let it flow not deluge. great content!
No redemption for the Forsaken. They are called forsaken for a reason. That reason is what they ALL did during the War of Power. The least of what they all deserve is Balefire, but Lanfear being erased from existence forever is a good start.
I watched your video about Sanderson admitting she is still alive after the Last Battle. That gave her more depth!
I liked Lanfears character. I think she along with Asmodean helped humanize the forsaken, make them more like actual human beings. Some of the other forsaken just seemed a bit two dimensional and over the top evil and driven by simple desire for power. With Lanfear I never knew where I had had her or what her motives or plans were.
As you mention there were even times where I almost thought she might turn back to the light again. So while her plots and plans might not have changed a whole lot in the grand scheme I felt she was much more interesting than say Moridin. He was fairly one dimensional. It is kinda funny that she impacted the events as little as she did, but made the reading of the story more interesting for me... because I often had a feeling that she could have made a huge difference.
Lars Funck yeah agree. Her and Asmodean were very interesting characters, Asmodean being my favorite “bad guy”. I think a woman scorned is very believable and relatable. Her actions were complex maybe she didn’t even know how she truly felt. Hell I know men and women that have acted like her when heart was broken (minus the magical badassery of course)
@@Diggsjp01 same here but Padan Fain is my favorite villain in the series because he just says fuck it and does his own thing.
@@GuitarsAndSynths Sometimes batshit crazy is the most scary because they are so unpredictable. I got that vibe from Padan Fain.
You mention the angreal Lanfear has in the confrontation before going into the red stone ter'angreal. The angreal is from Rhuidean. Moiraine places it on the wagon the day prior [FoH Ch. 32], knowing Lanfear will take it in order to fulfill the future she saw in which Rand is able to progress (the other two possible futures being Rand dying and Lanfear stealing Rand away and turning him). The moment before Moiraine goes through the doorway she claws it away from Lanfear, which I believe is how she comes into possession of it.
I really like the angreal because it seems to me to represent Moiraine. It's an acrobat that appears to be bending backwards, but when you look closer you see his hands and feet are bound. Moiraine was fulfilling her role in fighting the Shadow, but was also bound by it.
Interesting video. I've never scrutinized Lanfear before and it was fun to think about her over the whole of the series. I agree that she's ultimately under utilized, but I appreciate how much of her we get. It's also fun to see one of the Forsaken who is so clearly in it for themselves, as all the rest, whether they're truly devout or not, don't even consider going against the Great Lord in any meaningful way. I never even considered when I was reading the series that she would come to the Light though. That's not her.
Didn't Moiraine regain the acrobat angreal by asking for it from the Finn as one of her three wishes? I might be wrong, but that rings a bell...
@@Blood_Monkey that sounds familiar. I'm near there in my current reread, so I'll find out soon, but now that you say it that does sound right.
I always wanted her to come back to the light as well! Would have been great to see some last sacrifice from her. I also would have liked to see more of her back story focusing on how she was treated as an aes sedai (considering she had immense power but was not given that much honour among their ranks) as a reason for propelling her to the dark one and less focus on being a scorned lover.
Lanfear is easily one of my favorite characters in the series and my favorite of the Forsaken. I love when she laughs at Rahvin and calls him a pig casually and Rahvin does nothing. That is real power when you can act brazen and the most powerful Forsaken do nothing.
10:42 - "It's unkown where she acquired it (the ivory bracelet angreal) but it could have been from the Stone of Tear".
Incorrect. In the Fires of Heaven, Moiraine is revealed to have placed the ivory bracelet on the wagon with the stone ter'angreal gateway to the Eelfinn, the night before Lanfear's attack. She knew Lanfear would use it, and that Moiraine herself would need it later.
She saw it in Rhuidean
14:11 "all of the forsaken basically turn to shadow because of selfish reasons" I think Elan Morin has a much greater motiff than all others.
Demandred too. We don't get to see it much but I like the implication that he started to develop feelings for the people who viewed him as a hero.
@@RedOphiuchus The Sharans? Yeah that was actually why he flipped he was the 2nd best at swords, the power, command etc. So when he was a general of the light he got pissy and jealous of Lewis. He then flipped to the DO over jealously of the Dragon. The reason he had feelings for the Sharans had nothing to do with caring for them. He just felt that by being acknowledged as their leader and savior. He was finally getting the recognition he "deserved". If anything Demandred was the most selfish of all the Forsaken eye turned to evil. Over literally being butthurt that he was only the 2nd best Aes Sedi.
@@michaelhowze8198 I think that's definitely a valid interpretation. And you're absolutely spot on about why he turned. But we also know so little about his time in Shara except that I'm pretty sure some forsaken react that he seems different. Maybe I'm misremembering that. Either way I think your interpretation is fair but I also think it's possible that his time in Shara could have changed him. Not enough to change the outcome of events, he certainly still has his desire to best Lews Therin, but a side of him that genuinely cares about the Sharan people would be interesting.
@@RedOphiuchus I think he cared about them just nhi it as much as he did himself.
Elan was deceived by the dark one. He was lied to in believing the end result of the Wheels turns would be the dark one winning. So, he gave himself to the dark one
I agree, I feel like Lanfear was under served. If she had attempted to return to the light, or been more successful in her schemes she would have been more interesting. In the first part of the series she was by far the most interesting of the forsaken, but later it feels like she became a stereo type. I suppose Jordan wanted the reader to see that all the chosen were simply just too selfish and that was the reason they were chosen to begin with, but given the depth of the characters for the light it felt a little off balance having almost all the forsaken be so one dimensional. It's one of my only gripes about the story. I feel like Lanfear was a missed opportunity. That goes a little for the shadow in general, the Seanchan kind of steal the spotlight away from the forsaken and Fain, for much of the series I felt like the forsaken were too predictable and not very threatening and often defeated too easily, why the Seanchan seem to roll over everything and become more of threat than the shadow.
For me Ishamesl (DO will win eventually) and Demandred (Why is Lewis better st every damn thing screw him) have the most realistic backgrounds. The first bec5hes mathematically correct and the 2nd because people do in fact do messed up crap over jealously.
as with many other characters (particularly Mazrim Taim) it seems like Robert Jordan started out with a plan to do interesting things with Lanfear and then later decided he didn't have time to develop these characters and plots because he thought we needed to spend eight books looking at events from the perspectives of non-essential characters who have bit parts and no consequence whatsoever.
I think Lanfear freaking out over Aviendha is in character. With Lews Therin, they were both powerful, but he was the more powerful of the two. She couldn't hold onto him. Fast forward thousands of years. She finds the Dragon has been reborn. He's new to his powers and is still basically a nobody from a farming village when they first meet. After manipulating him and helping him and trying to lure him to her, she STILL can't keep ahold of him even as a farm boy still growing in his power. That would very much cause this selfish, power hungry woman to snap. Maybe a little out of jealousy, but more from being royally pissed that someone else is encroaching on the power that she believes should be hers.
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I was dumb forgot the password. I would appreciate any tricks you can offer me
@Korbyn Jamison Instablaster :)
@Gary Leonel Thanks for your reply. I found the site on google and im in the hacking process now.
I see it takes quite some time so I will get back to you later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
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@Korbyn Jamison You are welcome :)
Sanderson says that Lanfear was not killed by Perrin. He was under her power, and didn't see reality. He was under compulsion. So Lanfear is alive at the end of the book. I say that with confidence because I saw Sanderson in a video and he said she is alive at the end.
I think you only die forever in the World of Dreams if you are between lives. Since only a handful of animals and the Heroes of the Horn live there, they are the only ones who have that risk.
During the battle Lanfear has with Alivia, she thinks that it is impossible for Alivia to be so powerful. She thinks that it is not possible for ANY woman to be more powerful than herself. I took this to mean that she had received a gift from the Finns to be the most powerful a woman could be in the power.
Please don't mess up lanfear!!! That's my lady
I think her introduction in The Hunt For The Horn was the best characterisation of her. After which I think Jordan lost interest in her as a main protagonist. I think she was in book 2 to tempt Rand and tease the reader. Also she was there to give Lews Therin's backstory and push the plot forward. When Brandon Sanderson took over, I am not sure he had much of an idea of what to do with and just included her in a sub-plot to offer a conclusion for her story ark.
Who is here from a big lanfear reveal three years into the future?
Lanfear: Worst Ex in History....
As for the note on the audio book narrators... they are both genuinely good and a few notches up from most audio book narrators. They play with their voices just enough to make every character distinct, seriously outstanding work from both of them.
We do have Lanfear's perspective once in the series, as Cyndane, during the Battle at Shadar Logoth.
So... Lanfear lives at the end of the series, it was verified by Brandon Sanderson. She was so sneaky she even slipped one by Nae'blis. Hopefully that changes your opinion of her. She legit orchestrated the only favorable outcome for her.
Interviewer: Lanfear, according to your resume your last job was in R and D for Aes Sedai during the age of legends. then, it appears that you took some time off. Can you help us understand this 3,000 year gap in your employment history?
Lanfear: ...*begins weaving balefire*...
I think Lanfear was executed well. Perrin did great.
I think she was executed well. Perrin did a great job.
Oh, snap!
sobrcelt spoilers but yeah, I imagine that’s the sound her neck made.
Character analysis of Bayle Domon. Specifically his back story and why he is being hunted
Perhaps it was my head cannon but I always thought that each of the forsaken was meant to represent a different type of evil and I think Lanfear is a great examination of narcissism. I also think that Lanfear being fairly incompetent is both part of that as well as being something that you couldn't do in a series with a single main antagonist but made here interesting both in the lore of the series, by showing that being a powerful channeler doesn't mean you'll be good at everything. And from what I can see the only one who really thinks that Lanfear is the best at anything except looking good is Lanfear.
Love your videos dude, I’m only on book 5 of WOT atm but it’s already my favorite fantasy series, it’s great to see some TH-cam videos on these amazing books.
Turns out... Lanfear isn't dead. 🤷
Lanfear, to me was way more than one dimensional. Yes she was obsessed with Rand. It made her more tragic than anything else. She kept trying to find some one, anyone, to love her. She was looking for validation. I think if Rand had shown her love then she might have turned from the dark one.
She was more interested in power. Lews Therin, through Rand, said the same. He called her Mierin
I think Lanfear was a great character because she made WOT feel so real in the sense that life is not fair, and some people just fail.
Ahh... The angreal she picks up is the one Moiraine left out there for that purpose, due to her visions in Rhuidean.
The Angreal Lanfear uses came from Rheudian. There are a couple references to it in Moraines point of view. It was in the wagon that Lanfear climbed up on during her confrontation with Rand. Moraine had moved it there the night before when she was checking on the wagons.
If you don't think there are women out there that are like Lanfear then you've been lucky to never run across one, believe me they exist and when you realize that you are with one it is not fun. I know men can be the same way as well, all I'm saying is she actually does make a believable villain and people with that type of personality are out there. She was written far better than you realize.
I've known a few Lanfear types...hoping they change their ways, but never doing it. I think that helps make her character more believable...I would have liked to know more of her backstory before she was introduced (I assumed she was evil like the others, but she was fueled by jealousy and a thirst for power).
I would wager that her character was based on Lilith from Jewish mythology. The first mate of Adam, tossed aside because of her thirst for power...Adam is then given Eve. Lilith is then driven by jealousy and a thirst for power...
She helped open the OG bore she actually might not have been evil. Its possible that she had to choose to join the DO or die right then and there. Just speculation
Your video is spot on. Completely agree with the fact that she should have had a last ditch attempt at redemption. If you could ever criticise anything in the wot, its villains would be the easiest to point fingers at.
Perrin did NOT kill Lanfear in the Last Battle
I love the new news that came out about her
The angreal is from the wagons, it's the one Moraine place there that morning for Lanfier to find. Though I don't think Moraine new it was an angreal at the time. Also Lanfier didn't just freak out about the news he had slept with Avienda, she had found him in bed with Min and seen him in the world of dreams with Min, Avienda and Elaine. I think she made some assumptions about that which is why she stated "you let another women touch you again!" or something like that.
IMHO the forsaken as a group fell flat. Powerful channelers beaten by literally a group of children. The main characters were young but the forsaken with hundreds of years of experience, and knowledge from an advanced culture couldn't handle a handful of 20 something's farm boys and girls. I enjoyed the books, but the forsaken were largely a joke.
Very nice! I look forward to the rest of The Forsaken character analysis vids
I loved Lanfaer, in SWTOR, my mains are all various ways to spell Lanfaer, Mier'in, etc
The fact is that there are extremely talented, intelligent women who are also bent. I am reminded of that lady astronaut Capt. Lisa Marie Nowak that drove to Orlando Florida all night long in a diaper, and got charged with attempted murder after attacking a woman in the Orlando airport over a male astronauts affection....it happens. I have no problem with Lanfear as a character.
The first 'appearance' of Lanfear is most likely when Rand feels unseen eyes while trying to escape from the Aes Sedai in Fal Dara.
Lanfear (Lahn-FEER): 1) Daughter of the Night, Forsaken most associated with Lew Therin Telamon as his former good-time girl, 2) commitment
I like your new audio by the way it works
So interested in your videos, but cant watch most of them because of the "RED". I am on book 5 now. I have a long way to go I guess. Please do make more "Yellow" and "White" videos. No pressure :P. And this maybe asking for too much but can we expect book specific spoiler ratings as well? Like spoilers for people who have not read beyond book 3 or book 9 etc.
Thanks
All I can tell you is hurry up and read the books :D
Why wasn't moraine and lanfear protected by the accords? As they both entered through the redstone door frame
Another great character examination! I always learn so much I didn't know :-)
Just a heads up I’m pretty sure moraine left the bracelet angreal next to the doorway to the realm of the Finn. It was all part of her vision and it was originally among the other objects of power in Rhuidean.
Please do an examination on Asmodeon and the snakes and foxes.
I like what they’ve done for her in the show. It seems like they’re trying to fix her character.
Lanfear should be played by Eva Green in the show!
One may wonder how much of Lanfear's last actions in the MOL were actual Robert Jordan's idea.
Mol?
@@TruthWaves22Memory of Light
Gotta be honest lanfear was a great character
Or with Audible you can trade books in, so its basically unlimited books for a monthly fee.. kinda like netflix
Can only agree. Lanfear could have been used much better. Her vanity was her downfall and in that way very in character, but that's also where I see the most unfulfilled potential. She could have been much more. Either a better Forsaken or potentially even turning back to the Light. Give her another love line to pursue, one she doesn't want but can't help follow. Make her realize that there is more than just Power in the world. Or let her embrace it completely, trying to get on the good side of Morridin, who abuses it to strike deeply at the forces of the Light. I would always argue that Rand would have lost to Morridin at the end if it hadn't been for Callandor and its secrets. But she was too fixated on the Light figures and got burned.
Great video, really enjoyed it!
My favorite character of the forsaken
So in the wheel of time is the concept of afterlife, the idea that bad people just stop existing, unless the dark one chooses to resurrect them in a new body?
In all fairness her greatest moment was probably releasing the dark one to begin with.
My take on Lanfear was that she was RJ's take on the "Obsessive Ex-Girlfriend" - The archetypal trope of the beautiful woman who always got what she wanted until she didn't, at which point she goes absolutely mental - The type of person who obsessively fixates on something they cannot have, and abandons reason in their efforts to obtain it. I always wondered if she was secretly based on someone RJ knew from his past, either an ex of his or the ex of a friend. The way he portrayed so many women as strong, independent, intelligent and wise individuals, and went so far as to shine a positive light on matriarchal societies gets him a pass on any misogynist accusation, but Lanfear was that cautionary tale every guy knows about in real life. Of course the male analog exists in real life too, and I think would have been interesting if RJ had made one of the male people who was obsessive center around a wheel-bound female (or male?) as a mirror to Lanfear's brand of crazy. Not a direct criticism per-se, but casting a woman as the only person who goes WAY too far because of romantic infatuation and obsession just isn't interesting anymore.
Excellent content, great master.
I agree with your analysis. She would've been a far stronger character if she had returned to the Light.
Of course, that would mean that she would be extremely similar to Darth Vader, but still, it was a missed opportunity.
I don’t think she cared for good or bad. Just glory and power. Started with Lews Therin, got rebuffed, so she went to the dark one. Then when Lews was reincarnated, she shifted to him for another chance. She was consistent in her motives.
Lanfear always struck me as actually in love with Therin, but unable to trust anyone, and always grasping for power. Something a lot of people never think about is WHY Lanfear is so focused on sex and power. People who've been abused often grow up promiscuous and power hungry, in an effort to be safe. Then she gets a great life, is in a relationship with Therin, things are great, and then he stabs her in the back. She loses everything because of the man she loves. After that she's broken, love and hate to screwed up in her head she can't tell one from the other.
She was Proud of choosing her own name
Is there enough about the finns to do a video? I'm really curious about them.
Great stuff. The only thing that needs updating is the fact Lanfear is alive. Her death was grossly exaggerated. Ask Brandon Sanderson if you don't believe me.
The bracelet angreal came from Rhuidean. Moiraine carefully placed it next to the doorway, aided by knowledge from the aiel's rings ter'.
Lanfear only possessed it for a few minutes.
Great nuggets of info in there too. Particularly live the conclusions that can be inferred from definite events.
Lanfear watching Rand & Asmodean Barlow in Rhuidean, her "schizophrenia" putting her "claws"to his neck. Rand's thinks something like "a viper, a viper is madly in love with me. No WOT character is one-dimensional
I think generally I would have made the Forsaken a bit darker and appear much more powerful. That would have marked them more as evil, and it would have made Rands transition even more powerful. It kind of bothered me that most of the Forsaken were more self centered than really evil, they don't have to go like full Cruela and kill a puppy but.... Even in Lanfear's case she could been so interesting a bit more malicious playing both sides trying to usurp the Dark One or Lewis Therin's power....
Are you going to ammend this video, or do a new one, in light of the new reveal?
Prob a new video
I agree that her character would've been more interesting if she'd come back to the Light. There could've been a very interesting arc from then on as we wouldn't know if it was a true conversion or not. Then, sacrificing herself to save Rand would've made her tragic story complete. (Not unlike Anakin Skywalker.)
I theorize that Lanfear was working to assist the side of the light the whole time. To overthrow the dark one, and rule over the world with Rand at her side. I believe that the only part of her plan that failed was making Rand fall in love with her. Lanfear is one of my favorite characters. I too thought that she might turn back to the light after she was reincarnated, and I'm glad she didn't.
You theorize? She openly admits that that's her plan
Lanfear is one of the best forsaken, is the casting done on her?
Not yet!
Don't forget all the forsaken spent 3000 years obsessing about specific things contributing to their apparent shallow nature. 3000 years is enough to make someone seriously insane.
I agree completely
Lanfear got the angreal because Moraine left it in front of the Terangreal as part of Moraines plan to kill her.
I normally think you are spot on. But I definitely don't see the point that Lanfear is some sexist meme. Her greatest motivation was power. She saw Lews Therin as a means to that end. Sure she might have had some affection for him, but in the end her character was a case study in what the pursuit of power can do to someone. She only wanted Rand back so that they could "challenge the creator." I think that is the tragedy of her character. We want her to show some human emotion, love and real loss with sacrifice (a la Snape) but she never does ... and that is the whole point. She is barely human. She lost her humanity in her insatiable lust for power/dominion. She almost gains it back at the very end but simply can't bring herself to give up the one thing that has come to define her: power. She literally has nothing else. If all her character was based on was spurned love, she would have been far less of a tragedy. But because her lust for power came to fully define her and erase any humanity she had left, she is ultimately left powerless to gain back that humanity. Its a cruel irony. The one that sought the most power became the most helpless.
The most shocking thing to me was, that she saw even the Dark One as nothing more than a means to an end... She cared nothing for the light or the shadow all she wanted was power, and perhaps the way the pattern swirled around the ta'veren was the closest a human could get to power. By the end Lews Therin (no not Rand he was 99% Lews Therin by then) could bend the pattern to his will which is something I think Lanfear knew he would be able to and wanted that power to herself. Later trying to settle with Perrin's amasing control of the dream world when it became obvious she could not control Lews Therin.
Fun fact. Evil Lords are better rulers then the "Good" ones. Since on the Evil side authority and influence is all merit based. Do a good job and get rewarded. Good guys are just effin corrupt. Lanfear being the first Forsaken still didn't end up as the Nae'Blis. Heck, she was the one who freed their new boss.
Lol I named lots of my characters in SWTOR after Lanfear
I'm already an Audible subscriber, is there any way I can support the channel through Audible anyways?
Thanks so much Erisian! Unfortunately I’m not sure how you could, but if you are interested in supporting the channel, I’d invite you to take a look at my Patreon page. The link is in the description. I really appreciate you watching the content and I’m glad you’re enjoying it!
Yeah, I hope the flesh Lanfear out and give her more nuance in show. Less glomming on men with power, and more her standing on her own. She's a powerful, and by all accounts intelligent woman. She created the Bore. She was the first Forsaken. She's hyped up so much early on, and that scene at the end of the Great Hunt was had a quiet menace, but in the end she's just a stupid, small minded woman.
Give her menace. Make her scary as hell. She is one of the most powerful channelers in the books, a woman who was a couple centuries old, who was born into a time of great technology. Keep her mysterious. And for the light's sake, let her stand on her own, rather than clinging to Rand like a parasite. If you want to humanize her, give her a soft spot for Rand. Maybe she's trying to turn him because she doesn't want to have to kill him. Make her attempt to kill Aviendha a tactical decision, rather than an emotional one.
That swings Lanfear more to Semirhage if she attacks Aviendha through a tactical choice. She has to be that ex, it is part of her backstory. The Knife Of Dreams shows that Semirhage's attack was of a tactical motive, and would have succeeded but for Cadusaine's paralis net, and LTT's memories.
they humbled her in the show, i don't mind, i love to see more pov of her
Lanfear is 👎🏻bad news from beginning to end. Perrin is right, someone has to do the dirty work for Rand, to cover his back. It was so so close, the dark one almost succeeded in winning the final battle, in the Memories of Light.👏👏👏👏
This is a great analysis, though I heavily disagree with your conclusions on her character. You may dislike tropes that frame a woman as emotional, but history, especially mythology which is the basis for TWoT, finds that women (and men both) can remain highly emotional even at the heights of power. In fact, that is the quintessential property that The Dark One seeks in his acolytes: self obsession. The self obsessed are inherently weak to anything that would undermine their world view. That her world view is that she is the most desirable woman for a multitude of reasons, it is of course that being spurned by the one person she considers her equal would throw her into a state of deepest turmoil. This isn't merely a cat fight. This is someone else laying claim to her domain and her unleashing the beast within to assert her dominance. There are countless examples of powerful women doing this throughout history. Lanfear is very much a believable and human character, not a caricature.
Lanfear could have been the most interesting Forsaken because of her intellect and range of skills . That the other Forsaken underestimated her could have increased her ablilty to influence Randland.. But the "you are mine Lews Therin" mantra was sexist to the point of ridiculousness.
Yoy need strong villians to make a compelling story . I hope the Amazon series deals with this flaw in an otherwise classic series.
LOL, that's how long it take to listen to a book :P
The first yandere i read about
I am glad she didn’t come back to the light. She was selfish, egotistical, arrogant , having her repent would not have been true to her character. I think for the most part Lanfear was the flashy bad guy. The one out front that does the yelling and telling you how important they are while really you are just a distraction for the clever bad guys in the background.
So Lanfear is a Yandere
I wish Margo Robbie would play her
11:37 for lols
Nothing sexiest about it. She's the ultimate crazy ex.
Hey man I love your channel! Can you do a character analysis soon of Shaidar Haran? He's a really intriguing character deserving of your expert analysis!
One of the most interesting characters of the wheel of time early when we weren't sure of where she stud but yeah not that interesting when she was brought back
Nice sweatshirt man.. You from Ohio? I'm up near Toledo ↖
Cbus!
I disagree 100% with your opinion on her character, I think that she was a great character. She was humanized, but her caricature was 100% accurate. She was a woman who lusted for power, and wanted to attach herself to powerful men. She was beautiful, and used that to gain their attention. How is ANY of that something out of the realm of reality? That's what real life women do. I'm glad that you've never had a crazy over sexualized woman doing shit to you, but bald gingers probably don't have that much experience with the crazy hot bitches.
I disagree with your about Lanfear. I've met people like her who absolutely lose their minds over the person they are into not being as into them. Also Robert Jordan's objective with all of the forsaken was to show the flaws of humanity and each forsaken seems to symbolize a particular flaw. Obsessions like her's I think are absolutely very human, not just the childish kind. Yes people have made the sexist memes but people will meme about anything. Would we be saying the same thing if she was instead sexually obsessed with Elaine or some other female character?
This happens to women..and even men NOW. Thank the Lord they don't have access to the power
Lanfear _"Disliked"_ this video...😊
this is really great, but hopefully in later videos you have learned to talk WAY slower as you are just throwing all this stuff at us and not giving a moment to absorb. breathe Nae'Blis, pause, let it flow not deluge. great content!
Hold up... You’re from Ohio??
No redemption for the Forsaken. They are called forsaken for a reason. That reason is what they ALL did during the War of Power. The least of what they all deserve is Balefire, but Lanfear being erased from existence forever is a good start.
I don't think I've ever commented on a youtube video but I just want to say I enjoy what youre doing and I hope you keep it up
Thanks Benjamin! I appreciate it!
Lanfear was the backwoods trailer trash of the Forsaken. LOL