VIDEO CORRECTION : I mentioned that "Glasstaff" did not have a Stat Block in the original Lost Mine adventure, and he does, it is listed as 'Evil Mage' whereas in this new it is actually a named Stat Block as _Iarno “Glasstaff” Albrek_ apologies for the confusion.
This video autoplayed for me and when it came on the first thing I thought I heard was "Bend over and blow"... I had some real concerns about where this video was going until I saw the title and realized my mistake!
Actually, your in-depth coverage of this title has prompted be to preorder the module. I am not usually a fan of modules, preferring to structure my own. I've only bought Curse of Strahd (which I love running), tthe Dragonlance book, and The Wild Beyond yhe Witchlight, and I've not been disappointed with any of them. This just sounds intriguing, and a fun way to get a campaign rolling.
This is perhaps one of the 1st "modules" that I'll run without ripping it apart and adding bits to my homebrew (or homebrewing it for that matter), which is something I've not done in years. I really like the story itself and the elements that it presents hits on all my topics of interest.
Part 3 is the one change I really don't like. Here's the thing about Agatha... Agatha has a history in the Forgotten Realms; she's a character who has existed since long before Lost Mine decided to include her as a cameo. In the original adventure, I like that they opted to make her vanish without a fight because it precluded the need to include a stat block for her. In the revised version, they added the option to fight her, using the normal Banshee stat block in the Monster Manual. This feels like an oversight to me - perhaps the decision of someone on the design team who didn't know the history of the character and decided "Well, if a Banshee has a stat block in the Monster Manual, why wouldn't we give the players the option of fighting this one?" - because Agatha is no ordinary, average Banshee. Her lore is that she is an ancient undead spellcaster, perhaps even the most powerful "Banshee" of her kind in this corner of the Forgotten Realms. It simply doesn't jive with her established lore to make her an ordinary Banshee. Otherwise I like most of the updates.
There are some things I'd prefer to have seen done differently (specifically seeing some better tethering connections between the first section of adventure and the second) but homebrewing the stuff I wanted was simple enough.
Thank you for going over this! I greatly appreciate the time and effort you put into this to go over the differences. I am DMing LMoP right now and my party is in the middle of the Rebrand Hideout, and I was wondering what they could do after they complete the whole adventure. Good to know they could go directly into Chapter 5 of the Shattered Obelisk without any issues when they are done. 😊👍
yup, it's a little "disjointed/jarring" only because there is no clear "handshake" between the two parts, so, what I would do is read further into the rest of the adventure and see what you can do to make some small nods and connections to bridge that gap.
Very much appreciated! I just started running LMoP not that long ago so this is very helpful for deciding whether to get the new book to incorporate its version of the story.
One thing that wasn't covered is that they've upgraded named goblin NPCs to Goblin Bosses, and added Goblin Bosses to random goblin encounters in chapter 3. This is a change I like, as it makes the Cragmaw Tribe feel larger and with its own sub-commanders among the goblins. However, it also could make the encounters in the Hideout more difficult, as there are now two Goblin Bosses guarding Sildar. Hopefully parties will try negotiating more often.
and I think that's an important element to remember too, one doesn't have to rush in with swords swinging, sometimes talking and negotiations can work perfectly.
Great breakdown. I'm finishing up Witchlight in the next couple months, and have now played a more recent fey Lost Mines campaign recently and Dragon of Icespire Peak last year, so now I'm keen to run both of those combined with Shattered Obelisk in a longer campaign for my group, really seed Shattered Obelisk during the whole combination Lost Mines of Icespire Peak, give them a home base and all that, then run Shattered Obelisk for slightly longer levels (probably up to 14 instead).
Even better, turning one of the 2 dragons in the story into a brainstealer dragon from 3e could be a real capper on the mundane Phandalin adventures and jettison the players deep into the aberrant tone of the rest of the campaign.
the 2nd part, The Shattered Obelisk is VERY well put together, the story gives some advanced mechanics but also presents some opportunities for the players to think outside the box.
Nice overview! LMoP is by far one of my favorite adventures and was concerned the changes would hurt the story, doesn't sound like they did. I probably pick this one up. Thanks!
I really hoped they would have fixed the stairs error in Wave Echo Cave. (If you exit area 19 through the double doors and proceed to area 18 you go down one set of stairs, but if you exit through the side and go past the door to area 20 towards area 18 you go down two sets of stairs.) I also feel that the map for Thundertree is a bit flat. I would have loved to see a more interesting wizard tower map for Venomfang.
yeah, i'd have loved to have seen a slightly expanded experience with Venomfang. I never noticed that abou area 19,18, and 20. I'll go check it out right now.
No one has mentioned the Dragon of Icespire Peak. Is it now irrelevant? I know a lot of people combined both starters into one bigger adventure, will that still be a thing?
It still could be used I assume, but this adventure looks to be a bit more contained to the original campaign, where DoISP was more a 'sequel', but had the ability for the DM to smash the campaigns together. You could likely still do that, but that's extra DM work for you.
it's not mentioned in here. I don't see why you couldn't still use it, it just doesn't tie into the Shattered Obelisk so a small level adjustment might be needed (to the SO adventure) if you do choose to go back to DoIP.
Truly Amazing, Awesome & Wonderful Content about this Module is stunning! You're the best to ever do it, Gamemasters! Sept 19th is sooooo close! I can't wait! Thx so much 4 helping us mere mortals! You're are so wonderful, Gamemasters! 😉🤨
I was a big fan of lost mine and have run it and Dragon of Icespire peak multiple times and was very excited for this book, and while I'm super happy for chapter 5 onwards, I was very disappointed with the lack of additional content or updates to the original story since it's as old as 2014, while I would want huge changes, I would have preferred more build up to the new content other then some goblins mention some weird Goblins or at least have the new additional adventure play off of more of the old chapters like more work with the factions or some characters who are introduced and then never seen again, or even introduced new npcs earlier. I feel like there's a lot of cool stuff that can be done to iron out this adventure even for players who have already player lost mines.
I agree. I liked it well enough for what it was back when it first came out, and I think there was a big opportunity here to tether it to the _the shattered obelisk_ adventure, that was sadly missed.
I'm so getting Phandelver and Below to compare with Mt Lost Mine. I'm getting ready to run Lost Mine as my first real campaign outside of one shots. I've been making changes to villains such as Hamun Kost is Glasstaff in disguise, and the Blackspider is not Neznar but is controlling him. I'm hoping these changes and a few more let me bring back villains for later in game and make a few of the encounters more interesting.
great video GMs! I have run LMoP numerous times, but have yet to crack the new adventure....it's sitting right on my shelf giving me the stink eye for not doing so... ;P
The fact that places like old owl well and agatha's lair alongside portraits for npcs makes me more interested in checking out a wotc book (which is odd tbh considering recent events but heyo). As a GM, how would you implement both phandelver and below and Dragon of icespire peak?
Personally, I'd rund LMoP from this new book, advance characters to level 4, run Icespire, advance to level... 7? Then go into SO but adjust some combat a touch to make it a touch harder..
I love that they added maps and character/ monster statblocks on the relevant pages. However I wish WotC could include packets full of such stat blocks and decent sized maps along with their books! Would remove the need to scour the web and have printer at hand. I like and see the pros with digital but stick with physical/ analogue as they do have pros over digital much as I can
Thanks for covering this book so much! I just pre-ordered because of your video and can't wait to start reading it. My main question is, at what level do you start the second part of the adventure, and does the progression feel good? I find it crazy how this adventure claims to get you to level 12, but if there is enough content for that, then that's amazing! After playing through BG3, that whole game is from levels 1-12, so for comparison, does it feel like its a massive adventure for a player, or is it smaller? Thanks for covering it!
The biggest disappointment for me with this is that the first half wasn't changed enough to lead into the second half. The second half feels very much "tacked on". I think there should have been more about the shards and obelisk mentioned. for example, the town could have been affected ealier on with signs suggesting the the lost mine has something to do with it only to find that the black spider found a shard there and is using it on the town n and then continues with the second half. Also, as the first half is very much the lost mine of phandelver then i think WotC should have made a digital "the shattered obelisk" expansion that could be purchased by those who already own the first half rather than pay full price for what is essentially, the second half they don't own.
Loving these in depth videos. My question is something you answered for the most part in another video. There are no pre-made characters in this book, but what about the goals that were given with the pre-made characters in LMoP? If I gave those to the players getting ready for my upcoming campaign of P&B:SO, is that out of date, or will they still pertain to NPCs in Phandalin of the new book?
nah, it's not out of date, you 100% could give those goals to new players. There is a section on "backstories" that incorporates some of that into something for players tho, but not as in depth as the premade ones from a few years back : I've got that video dropping tomorrow : th-cam.com/video/GPX15XhZa7o/w-d-xo.html
Absolutely brilliant breakdown. New to this channel but have been looking at some of your videos and am blown away by your presentation style and to the point analysis. I'm just curious as to whether the black spider gets a bit more background and of the stat blocks are the same as he was considered pretty weak a final 'boss' at the time. Also, hope this is ok to ask. This is a 1-12 level campaign so are the final opponents cr12 enemies or do you get to face something a bit more powerful (no stat spoilers please just curious about challenge ratings if that's ok?). Many thanks indeed!
Overall the spider is pretty much the same, although his spell list is slightly different than from before. Also; yes, there is at least one monster in here that is a CR15.
@@gamemastersI'd love the updated spell list if you get a chance and that's fair use enough. Ditto Glasstaff, if his spells are any different from the "evil mage" stats that he and the necromancer share in the original.
Amazing video as always ,thanks for all your helpful insights and comparisons . i would love to know if the new book mentions where the shattered obelisk comes from exactly, as in its original location before its shattering ,hoping you can help me with this hot question 🥰. looking forward to more of your awesome content . kind regards & stay magical 💙💙💙
I loved the original LMOP adventure and it's variety of challenges and scenarios. Now I find myself wondering if the new Shattered Obelisc part will mostly be a crawl through a megadungeon? Or will there be enough opportunities for exploration and social interaction?
nah, it's not a mega-dungeon, but there is plenty of dungeon to explore. As for social interaction, aye, there is a lot of room for players to socially engage should they choose (in fact I'm pretty sure the entire book could be completed without the need for combat - but that would take some VERY clever tactics on the party's part).
Thanks for the infodump! Just wonder... with all the psychic and psionic shenanigans and monsters.. Are Gem dragons (and gem dragonborns? ) introduced in the campaign? After reading Fizbans ToD, I get they are kinda trying to protect the material realm vs abberations. Especially underdark Sapphire dragons and Emerald dragons co-operate to get rid of such threats 😁 Having players converse and assist them would be neat!
Exactly what I needed! I’m currently running this adventure, just getting ready to start the 4th section the echo cave. I decided to pause and hold out for the campaign so I would not miss out on any new content in the mine. Question, watching ids from wizards I get the impression that they did drop hints or tie ins to the obelisk. They said they would mark areas like that with the green color. Are you not seeing anything like that? From what you are showing there is only a very minor change to the cave
i've not run across anything blatant that ties in with the obelisk in the earlier levels, but I've not run the adventure itself yet in how it is presented (covid has had me knocked down since I got this book) but I admit there may be some passages that I've just not read in full detail where it mentions the obelisk. That said, from Chapter 5 on, the obelisk is mentioned all over the place.
Awesome work. I guess my only question is - do any of the NPCs established in the original version become far major players in the later Shattered Obelisk portion of the game?
sortav... I mean.. nothing major in terms of "X was a bad guy the entire time!" but there are a couple that pop back up in later chapters for the players to interact with.
I've currently got a party on part 3 of the original LMoP from the starter set. They've done thundertree but none of the other bits. My Q is at what point of the LMoP story do hooks for the obelisk story start appearing and is it easy enough to switch to the phan and below version mid story? Great Vids BTW. I was going to buy phan and below anyway but your videos have convinced me that I made the right choice.
Sadly, there really arent too many hooks that connect the first part to the second, but its super easy to make threads that connect (small odd weeds growing, mushrooms growing on sides of buildings, perhaps the odd small creature skittering through an alley, there are lots of good ways to connect them but I'm not fully sure why they didnt do more).
Good summary. I'll probably just save myself some money and incorporate these changes into LMoP. That said, I don't like all the changes. Some of the enemy upgrades reflect the fact P&B is no longer a starter adventure for a group of Level Ones. I think I'd keep Agatha as a non-aggro NPC without a statblock too.
it 100% can be used with level 1 NPCs, the town itself is the same starter adventure that it always has been, up to about level 4 or 5. It's the below part that goes past that introductory adventure.
@@gamemasters Perhaps, but the additional sprinkling of goblin bosses would make some of those early encounters that bit harder. I'm looking to run LMoP for two D&D noobs, so I'm already considering amending some of the encounters - either reducing NPCs, increasing their starting level to 2, or adding in the "sidekick" statblocks from DoIP. P&B looks that extra step harder that is probably more suited for experienced players and/or a Level 2+ party. I'm not above TPK but given they're noobs, don't want to put them off the hobby with a TPK in the first hideout.
The Redbrand Ruffians are extremely nerfed in PaB. Their STR is increased to a 14 from 11, but their DEX is lowered from 14 to 10. They also wear leather armor now instead of studded leather. This results in a reduced AC of 11 from 14, and a reduced DEX save of +0 from +2. Their STR save does increase from +0 to +2, but this is a far less prevalent save than DEX. The major difference is the PaB version does not have multiattack, but it still uses a shortsword. This basically cuts the damage potential in half, and makes the new version hit more like a CR 1/4 or 1/8 even though it still lists the CR as 1/2.
i think this was done because many players died in that initial battle against them which caused a lot of DMs to nerf them on the onset (so I've heard).
@gamemasters I feel like you missed some of the more important additions with the foreshadowing of psionic goblins that ties into the later chapters. It provides early teases and foreshadowing
ooh! good question! Main hook is that the people of Phandalin are appearing to get sick, odd foliage and mushrooms are growing on the sides of buildings and in the cracks in the streets, just small odd things like that. There is an odd cow...
It sounds like my biggest disappointments is that they didn’t do much more to forshadow the blackspider or to make him a more imposing villain. Even if they would have tied him to the power emanating from the obelisk in some way it would have been better. They didn’t make better use of the doppelgängers. Maybe have Harbin westor originally replaced by a doppelgänger who is working to thwart the npcs and having real Harbin trapped in the jail in the keep. They didn’t really tie in some of the side quests they feel more like just fetch quests Agatha, old owl well, etc..and it sounds like they removed most orcs from Wyvern tor which I liked originally since it was easy to tie those orks into DoIP. They also didn’t add a section to make the party interact or care more about Gundren and the rock seeker brothers. Even an opening sequence where Gundren recruits delivery guards in Neverwinter would have been nice. I guess as the DM I need to incorporate some of these issues instead.
As a brand new DM currently running this campaign, I've found Matthew Perkins' TH-cam series helps me solve almost all of your dissatisfactions with the original campaign. Of course, the fact that you identified them without help means that you're probably better equipped to deal with them without help, but it's worth checking out if you want to save time inventing the wheel. I especially like his fix for involving Gundren and the Black Spider earlier and more interestingly. (Gundren also hired you to retrieve a Mcguffin which allows people to bypass the spectator or whatever. The Black Spider shows up in Phandalin to try to trade for it. Combat may or may not ensue (the doppelganger might appear here), the Mccguffin may or may not be lost, but the real victory is that the party leans to hate the Black Spider and love Gundren.)
Sounds good I’ll look it up… but still it would have been cool if the blackspider was one of the first corrupted individuals from the phandelver and below. Have them tie him into the new story.. because right now it sounds like you just walk back into phandelver and everyone is starting to get sick. There isn’t any connection and I still don’t know why the blackspider was so focused on wave echo cave.
Does any foreshadowing or elements of the plot for the Shattered Ooblisk appear in the Lost Mines of Phandelver part of this adventure? Or do the PCs deal with Wave Echo Cave and a brand new story begins? Also does the adventure cover how profitable the mine is once it is cleared?
it doesn't address how profitable the mine is. It sortav just begins a new story.. but not at the same time because... "things" happen in the town each time they (the players) come back to it, and that itself ties into the next section.
@@gamemastersOk thanks for that. I'm jumping back to 5e after a year with PF2e and this seemed like a good place to start since I ran the original and enjoyed it.
My players will never accept the Nothic having a name other than Bob. I personally feel changing GlassStaff familiar to a Quasit makes the spying/pretending to be a lot harder compare to a rat, do seem more intresting if the players get to fight him.
Oh my goodness, wow! The horses aren't dead in this one! What a world of difference! These "differences" are some of the most miniscule details that have literally zero bearing on the actual adventure.
@@rukysgream It's designed to immortalize the original adventure in a complete campaign, without changing it too much so it's still the original Lost Mines, just with a few minor tweaks that are barely noticed. The horse change I can understand is probably because many people aren't fans of animals or children suffering. D&D has changed and gained a much wider audience since the day Lost Mines was originally published, so they updated it to prevent that issue at the very opening of the campaign.
I saw elsewhere that there might be a new creepy quasi- religious fanatic goblin throwing his weight around in Crawmaw Castle. Is there anything additional I should know (and you can share) about running him if my players go there before my copy of the new book arrives? Thanks!
hmm.. only one I can think of is a goblin boss named Lhupo, who styles herself as a priest, and her “acolytes,” a pair of goblins, but none have any actual divine powers. I think she fights with a scimitar.
New DM/Player here. I've tried running LMoP with 4 of my friends some time ago and the cave with the goblins in the beginning of the game resulted in a TPK. It seemed very likely that at least one player would die, having in mind the low health pool of the players and the number of opponents. Is something changed in the initial difficulty levels of the adventure?
nope, nothing has changed in terms of difficulty, they just gotta get creative. Remind them that not all encounters must devolve into a fight or battle.
@@gamemasters Thanks for the suggestion! The intention that the Cragmaw Hideout should be fought through though is so explicit in the adventure, that it never occurred to me that it could be passed in some other way. It is said that: - the goblins in the goblin guard post directly open fire when they notice the adventurers - the goblin on the bridge signals for the flood release and then throws javelins down at the characters when he sees them - Yeemik only starts negotiating with the characters after he sees that "they are getting the upper hand" - Sildar wants to "put a stop to the goblin raids by clearing out the caves" - Klarg tries to ambush the characters if he was informed about them. Otherwise they "have a good chance to surprise" him. I wish that the adventure made suggestions on how it would be possible to pass these encounters without going into a fight. As is however, it seems like 4 lvl 1 characters are supposed to beat 15 goblins, 1 bugbear and 1-4 wolves. It didn't seem very beginner friendly neither to my players, nor to me as a new DM.
I'd have to point back at Monsters of the Multiverse in which players can RP as some "creatures" now and that not all "monsters" are evil. This is to simply show that not all Drow are evil (which has really been the case since AD&D days - even monsters have not always been always evil).
It's because WOTC thinks that the idea of half-races is racist, they could have easily put a good aligned drow in the book but they decided to race change the half-elf instead, don't be surprised if you no longer see half-elves in future books along with half-orcs, and any other half race, they took out half-elves and half-orcs out of the new players handbook and told you to essentially just play an orc, human, or elf and pretend its a *redacted*.
Couple of questions: 1. Is Glasstaff (no sure the name, the Wizard Villan that escape at the end of the LMoP) part of the rest of the story? Or he just disappeared? Is The Shattered Obelisk really connected to Phandelver and Below or is just more like 2 adventures that can be play one after the other?
1) Glasstaff - that depends.. I mean, if he isn't (spoiler spoiler spoiler) then I think (spoiler spoiler). 2) Is Shattered Obelisk really connected to Phand and Below? - Yes.
you for sure could start with just Shattered Obelisk. I might add a small preamble just to set the stage, but for sure you could drive right into chapter 5.
Does Phandelver Mines remain important after completing the 1 part of the book? It sounds like those part are not really connected and the second part could possibly be put anywhere, for example after Dragon Heist campagn... I love Lost Mines, it was my first campaign as a player and as a DM. And even thought it is easy to play - the story is really boring. The Black Spider figure is very intriging, but at the end he turns out to be a simple SR 2 mage without motivation. There is a great potential, and I've changed the adventure greatly with my players (e.x. Black Spider was not some regular drow, but a Drider that hoped to use Mines to create a powerfull artifact to create Eternal Night on the surfice). But I also hoped Phandelver and Below would make work on mistakes, do it better and create great plot hooks to the second part of adventure... I still be waiting though! To fix mistakes of my first playthrought and add more players personal content!
the 1st part doesn't exactly tether to the 2nd, but it does at the same time... Kinda doesn't make sense does it? So.. each time the players return to Phandalin, _things_ are _different_ and it is that that connects the two. That all said, if you want a bigger challenge, have the doppelganger that appears have actually been in the town from day one, should be plenty of NPCs to interact with and since the dopp can appear as anyone... (this is what I did with the dopp anyways).
I ran LMoP & DoIP combined for my younger kids (7, 10, 13) a couple of years ago, and they loved it. Would you have an age/maturity rating you could recommend for the new part? I've heard it gets pretty creepy.
for the new part... i mean, I think 7, 10, 13 (now 9, 12, 15) should be fine. Just keep in mind if there is an element that is a little over the top, tune it down. likewise if it's not enough, crank it up. :)
@gamemasters thanks! That's been my general approach, of course. I just wanted to make sure it wouldn't be a waste if it wasn't suitable for my primary player group.
I kinda hope there'd be more constructive advice for new DMs on how tie it all together and more smoothly drop hooks for the "side quests" etc, the way the original was set up wasn't particularly intuitive - if you didn't use the pregens you'd struggle to tie the plot together in some parts, and the hooks and info are all over the place...
so changing glassstaffs rat to a different creature is a big mistake if you have a druid in the party, that little rat led the adventurers straight into a trap! the rat actually stuck with the party for quite some time because they had no idea he was the badguys familiar, just saying
@@gamemasters we are in Chult (ugh, I really hate the Tomb of Annihilation campaign) so it looks like we are gonna do a better campaign, one with ACTUAL rewards. And on alternate Wednesday evenings it’s Dragonlance, so Chult and Krynn switching off on Wednesday evenings. I play a Dragonborn Paladin of Bahamut.
Thanks for listing the changes, looks to me just like wizards made changes to fit their agenda. Gonna buy the book and just keep the original content as it should be from the source material.
I don't really see any "agenda" just cosmetic changes. I mean, if you want to flip to the back of the original pamphlet style book to grab a stat block instead of getting it where it actually appears in the new book because of some "agenda"... by all means?
@@gamemasters I think they're referring to the random changes to NPCs, like Elmar to Elmina and making Edermath a Drow instead of a Half-Elf. They may be "cosmetic," but it does make a significant impact for those who've already played Phandelver. There's no need for these to be changed, and it messes with DMs planning to run Shattered Obelisk with those players. Sure, you could just revert the changes back to the way they were in Phandelver, but depending on the number of like changes, it may be a hassle to keep track of while running the book.
@@EitherProductions It's minor stuff; just two NPCs. The half-elf to drow change is likely to have it clear that not *all* drow are evil (since the first major baddy is a drow) and to step away a bit from the half races. That makes sense, as the original campaign was made when 'all drow are evil, but there are rare cases of heroes' was the norm, before they stepped back from a single race is always evil mentality and their decision to change the basis of the half races as well, means they can correct two issues with a single change. The Elmer to Elmina is a bit more head scratching, but it is what it is. Also, as a DM if you don't want to keep track of that, you can just say to the players out of game, "Hey, so a couple of things have changed in the adventure, so to keep things in track, NPC A is now a X and always has been." Players generally accept that things change and are happy to retroactively adjust things if you approach them about it.
@@okuraorca It's minor stuff you say, but suddenly because wotc decided half-elves weren't politically correct my character is something different now by the standards of their new rules. These changes and many more incremental steps towards woke identity politics are unnecessary.
@@okuraorca I think a more elegant solution would've been to make a new NPC to represent that there are good Drow and either add them to one of the quest locations, or to introduce the party to said character once the players head to the Underdark and need a friendly guide. Either way, if it's just those two NPCs throughout the entire book, then my conjecture about potential hassle is definitely reduced by a large margin. I'm currently running a Phandelver campaign myself as a first time DM, and I did custom art for the major Phandalin NPCs (since there wasn't any official art available at the time I made them), so Elmar is staying Elmar in my game. However, my players never went to the orchard, so I could very easily make that change if I followed up the campaign with the Shattered Obelisk. I probably won't, though, because the way WotC has advertised this book/adventure doesn't jive with me or fit where our campaign has been heading. I don't know if that's a valid observation or WotC just being bad at advertising their products to people like me who have no interest in horror/Cthullu elements but might be interested in the underlying structure of the adventure. At this point, I'll have to flip through it at my local game store to see if it's worth investing in.
Looking at nothic lore, they were apparently mages cursed by Vecna or maybe creatures from the Far Realm. Is either relevant in the new adventure, or is this nothic just still a random spooky guy with no greater significance?
For me lost mines is the worst campaign I ever DM. It's purpose to introduce new players and new DM to play DnD. How new players should know how to fight dozens of deadly goblins in a single cave? Why should they leave their main mission (provisions) behind? In phandalin every party I DM'd decided to just sit in village and wait until all redbrands are get out from mansion on their own. Why should players get inside unknown location if bad guys should notice that part of their gang is missing and go check on them? And then... we don't know where the castle is, let's do some random quests? And the most stupid loot - axe which can deal full damage to living trees, which is given after all living trees in game are (mostly) eradicated. The campaign forced me to answer so many awkward questions to players, like why all this people who live in phandalin and have weapon shop (who's owner is against redbrands) do not cooperate and not beat the shit out of 3 redbrands who came here often? Why we can't ask help from Sildar and his order form Neverwinter to assault castle/cave? And whole campaign is just village, dungeon (cave), dungeon (mansion), wondering around in forest (book does not say to new DM to not spam random encounters), dungeon (thundertree), dungeon (castle), dungeon (echo cave). I did not finish every time I started phandelver, it is just bad. I would like to change a lot in this campaign, but at this point it is easier to just pick another one from starter ones.
my experience has never been this.. I mean, you don't have to fight anything at all, you can get through most of the adventure by talking your way out, I even had a party hire the goblins to take on the redbrands (tho I do admit that most parties go in for a bloodbath). As for where is the castle (I assume you mean tresendar manor?), it's right there, on top of the hill, wouldn't even need to roll a perception check to see it. regarding the Axe, I think it's Hew? as best I recall it does damage to all plant creatures and extra damage to things made of wood (like tables and chests). I dunno, players I've taken through here have always enjoyed it.
@@gamemastersHe has a point this book has a lot of problems especially the ending just being three dungeons in a row of slugfests except Venomfang, I’m gunna need to add a magic shop and change a lot of the encounters in Echo to avoid that. Also the xp is a pain in the ass, I see no way my players could realistically reach level 5 with the huge bump in do requirement So releasing a “new” book and doing nothing to combat these problems is not worth buying this at all
It's a two part adventure, so chapters 1 to 4 are a "remake" but the rest of the chapters make up the "The Shattered Obelisk" portion of the adventure which is new.
What I absolutely dislike: Making Daran a Drow. Just... why? Tacking on the below. It feels random. The original adventure is not reworked enough to warrant this development, at all. All in all, Phandelver and Below was a missed opportunity to flesh out the adventure and the backstories of various NPCs and locations - talking about Mormesk and The Black Spider here obviously. But WotC seems simply too afraid to do that and provide antagonists worthy of their name?
I'll lean to your view for a moment because I DO recognize that missed opportunity. I think that they really should have made an effort to connect the two adventures, and it could have been done in such a subtle.. but powerful way too. That all said, I do think the Shattered Obelisk portion is good and really does stand on it own.
@@gamemasters That's very strange. I had basically just asked, because I'm assuming that Shattered Obelisk continues to take place in Phadalin, if the changes to the town that happen in Dragon of Icespire Peak are addressed or apparent. Because I always assumed that doip was a kind of sequel or followup to lmop.
Just lazy. It's probably fine, but I hate it on principle. There's an entire Sword Coast where they could have popped in a new town. Not too mention an entire continent of Forgotten Realms.
they went with this setting because it worked and with them being under so much hot water at the moment, they feel like they need a win, so going with something that many 5e players recognize makes it automatically popular (for most). Personally, I'd like to see a massive tome set in and around Waterdeep. There is a lot of potential content for there that we just haven't really seen since ad&d days.
I can't believe they avoided killing horses. I'm guessing this is to appease some squeemish people who don't like seeing violence to animals (in a game that will see scores of goblins, orcs and other creatures rent asunder.) However, it makes the encounter make less sense: when the players show up there is no goblin kidnapper squad. They use arrows, so how did the goblins make the previous caravan stop? And when they did, they chose to do what? Let the horses run free? There is a lot of meat on a horse, I imagine a goblin tribe would value them considerably, especially considering they have to feed a kennel as well. Then the horses just decided to hang around the area that there was violence? I'm also not a huge fan of changing the good NPC to a drow, when a drow is a villain of the piece. It muddles the narrative unnecessarily.
the horse change is a little strange, and I came to the same conclusion that you did. I can't say as it bothers me either way... as for the NPC becoming a drow, that too confuses me because the main bbeg in the 1st part of the adventure is.. a drow. All I can figure is that they are going out of their way to say.. "not all drow are evil"? Which in and of itself doesn't make any sense because... that's kindav always been the case anyways.
A lot of the changes are good tho it seems it got the revamped treatment and was sent to the woke sanitizers. No half races, arbitrary NPC diversity swaps, transformation consent and some random changes to animals because PETA triggers i guess.
that's the thing, if there is an element that one doesn't want, one can always change it.. I've got LOTS of notes in my books as I do this with several books
@@gamemasters half-races are deemed racist by wizards. Thats the only reason for the change. Therefore it is a woke change. Most drow are evil, half-elfs are not. Therefore in some places Drow are attacked on sight. Changing an NPC into a drow is therefore a big change.
I believe they are dropping half-anything in the upcoming new edition. Apparently the WotC universe is so enlightened that inter race relations are not allowed. I'm sure that will keep everyone happy.@@gamemasters
I dunno, I guess I just don't see it as a major world halting issue. If it's something I don't agree with, I can easily change it at my table... and move on.
@@gamemasters its a major NPC / adventure change, and potentially a major world change too. I would use the original half-elf NPC to avoid any of this.
Just a nit-pick here, neither change was necessary, but changing Daran Edermath from a half-elf to a Drow reinforces the concept that not all Drow are evil, while changing Elmar to Elmina serves nothing other than to be a bit of a virtue signal. It's nothing to get upset about, but to me smacks of "look how inclusive/progressive we are!" In any case, it's the same adventure, the changes are just minor cosmetics and a bit of streamlining. I guess the question becomes, is Shattered Obelisk worth the investment if you already own LMoP? For me, the answer is "no," but that mainly has to do with the direction the executives are taking the business. Keys to the Golden Vault seemed pretty cool, Shattered Obelisk seems pretty cool -but I'm still not willing to support them financially at this time. 🏴☠
@@gamemasters it's a shame, though. Keys to the Golden Vault looked good, and fleshing out LMoP into a mini campaign, I'm all for it... but I'm not for the way the execs are treating the hobby and the fans.
I mean, I appreciate having some decent female characters to balance the male ones, but with Linene, Halia, and Qelline as businesswomen and Sister Garaele as ... helpful cleric? we probably weren't in danger of having no competent ladies around. Then again, all the most important NPCs (Gundren, Sildar, Stonehill, Bart, Harbin, Glasstaff, Black Spider, Klarg, Grol, etc) are guys, so making another of the NPCs the players are likely to actually interact with a woman isn't TOO bad in my book. But I'm currently halfway through the original campaign, so my characters are staying the races and classes I already introduced them as. (Some races and genders switched up to make the game slightly less predictable in telling who is good vs evil and which person is the big bad.)
@@uffish2 Right? There's already a wealth of competent female NPCs in Phandalin, it's not as though it was male dominated. Quelline was already girl bossing it -refusing to sell arms to the Redbrands. I think a more exciting gender swap would have been Iarno or Nezznar -which still would have served little purpose, but it would have been interesting.
>but to me smacks of "look how inclusive/progressive we are!" Trust me, this is subtle. This is minor stuff tweaked about to make minor changes that make little difference to the grand scope. The half-elf to drow change made sense as it corrects two issues with a single change, but doesn't wave it about. If you want beating over the head and waving about inclusivity, Disney is an example. Look at a lot of their recent live action movies, like Peter Pan and Little Mermaid. They wave the inclusivity in the face of the viewers even commenting on it in movie (Peter Pan's Lost Boys moment and 'I guess it doesn't really matter' comment is beating people over the head.
VIDEO CORRECTION : I mentioned that "Glasstaff" did not have a Stat Block in the original Lost Mine adventure, and he does, it is listed as 'Evil Mage' whereas in this new it is actually a named Stat Block as _Iarno “Glasstaff” Albrek_ apologies for the confusion.
I was just about to comment this, glad you caught it first.
This video autoplayed for me and when it came on the first thing I thought I heard was "Bend over and blow"... I had some real concerns about where this video was going until I saw the title and realized my mistake!
that... would.... be a different platform I'm on. wait.. I didn't say that.
🤣🤣🤣👌
Actually, your in-depth coverage of this title has prompted be to preorder the module. I am not usually a fan of modules, preferring to structure my own. I've only bought Curse of Strahd (which I love running), tthe Dragonlance book, and The Wild Beyond yhe Witchlight, and I've not been disappointed with any of them. This just sounds intriguing, and a fun way to get a campaign rolling.
This is perhaps one of the 1st "modules" that I'll run without ripping it apart and adding bits to my homebrew (or homebrewing it for that matter), which is something I've not done in years. I really like the story itself and the elements that it presents hits on all my topics of interest.
Part 3 is the one change I really don't like. Here's the thing about Agatha... Agatha has a history in the Forgotten Realms; she's a character who has existed since long before Lost Mine decided to include her as a cameo. In the original adventure, I like that they opted to make her vanish without a fight because it precluded the need to include a stat block for her. In the revised version, they added the option to fight her, using the normal Banshee stat block in the Monster Manual. This feels like an oversight to me - perhaps the decision of someone on the design team who didn't know the history of the character and decided "Well, if a Banshee has a stat block in the Monster Manual, why wouldn't we give the players the option of fighting this one?" - because Agatha is no ordinary, average Banshee. Her lore is that she is an ancient undead spellcaster, perhaps even the most powerful "Banshee" of her kind in this corner of the Forgotten Realms. It simply doesn't jive with her established lore to make her an ordinary Banshee.
Otherwise I like most of the updates.
There are some things I'd prefer to have seen done differently (specifically seeing some better tethering connections between the first section of adventure and the second) but homebrewing the stuff I wanted was simple enough.
Thank you for going over this! I greatly appreciate the time and effort you put into this to go over the differences. I am DMing LMoP right now and my party is in the middle of the Rebrand Hideout, and I was wondering what they could do after they complete the whole adventure. Good to know they could go directly into Chapter 5 of the Shattered Obelisk without any issues when they are done. 😊👍
yup, it's a little "disjointed/jarring" only because there is no clear "handshake" between the two parts, so, what I would do is read further into the rest of the adventure and see what you can do to make some small nods and connections to bridge that gap.
@@gamemasters Thanks!
Very much appreciated! I just started running LMoP not that long ago so this is very helpful for deciding whether to get the new book to incorporate its version of the story.
Glad I could help!
One thing that wasn't covered is that they've upgraded named goblin NPCs to Goblin Bosses, and added Goblin Bosses to random goblin encounters in chapter 3. This is a change I like, as it makes the Cragmaw Tribe feel larger and with its own sub-commanders among the goblins. However, it also could make the encounters in the Hideout more difficult, as there are now two Goblin Bosses guarding Sildar. Hopefully parties will try negotiating more often.
and I think that's an important element to remember too, one doesn't have to rush in with swords swinging, sometimes talking and negotiations can work perfectly.
I had no idea that this wasn’t an extension of LMOP. Thank you for all of the good info.
yep, a LOT of players thought this was a 100% continuation of the original. It's a "retelling" and includes the original. Thanks for watching!
Great breakdown. I'm finishing up Witchlight in the next couple months, and have now played a more recent fey Lost Mines campaign recently and Dragon of Icespire Peak last year, so now I'm keen to run both of those combined with Shattered Obelisk in a longer campaign for my group, really seed Shattered Obelisk during the whole combination Lost Mines of Icespire Peak, give them a home base and all that, then run Shattered Obelisk for slightly longer levels (probably up to 14 instead).
i can see that working pretty easily. Just be sure to toss in a few "far realm" nods
Even better, turning one of the 2 dragons in the story into a brainstealer dragon from 3e could be a real capper on the mundane Phandalin adventures and jettison the players deep into the aberrant tone of the rest of the campaign.
ooorrr.... you could toss in an Elder Brain Dragon : th-cam.com/video/xWDJlnMOe5U/w-d-xo.html
This is a tempting line, as I enjoyed the DoIP modules and haven't been able to run them yet. Clever!
Thank you, this is very informative! I can't wait to have my copy of the book and now I know I can continue to run LMoP without issues.
the 2nd part, The Shattered Obelisk is VERY well put together, the story gives some advanced mechanics but also presents some opportunities for the players to think outside the box.
Nice overview! LMoP is by far one of my favorite adventures and was concerned the changes would hurt the story, doesn't sound like they did. I probably pick this one up. Thanks!
yeah, the changes are just too small to have any major bearing on the mechanics itself, and they do overall streamline the process.
I really hoped they would have fixed the stairs error in Wave Echo Cave. (If you exit area 19 through the double doors and proceed to area 18 you go down one set of stairs, but if you exit through the side and go past the door to area 20 towards area 18 you go down two sets of stairs.)
I also feel that the map for Thundertree is a bit flat. I would have loved to see a more interesting wizard tower map for Venomfang.
yeah, i'd have loved to have seen a slightly expanded experience with Venomfang. I never noticed that abou area 19,18, and 20. I'll go check it out right now.
No one has mentioned the Dragon of Icespire Peak. Is it now irrelevant? I know a lot of people combined both starters into one bigger adventure, will that still be a thing?
It still could be used I assume, but this adventure looks to be a bit more contained to the original campaign, where DoISP was more a 'sequel', but had the ability for the DM to smash the campaigns together. You could likely still do that, but that's extra DM work for you.
it's not mentioned in here. I don't see why you couldn't still use it, it just doesn't tie into the Shattered Obelisk so a small level adjustment might be needed (to the SO adventure) if you do choose to go back to DoIP.
Truly Amazing, Awesome & Wonderful Content about this Module is stunning! You're the best to ever do it, Gamemasters! Sept 19th is sooooo close! I can't wait! Thx so much 4 helping us mere mortals! You're are so wonderful, Gamemasters! 😉🤨
Definitely getting a like and comment from me! This is exactly what i was looking for! Thank you so much.
awesome! :)
I was a big fan of lost mine and have run it and Dragon of Icespire peak multiple times and was very excited for this book, and while I'm super happy for chapter 5 onwards, I was very disappointed with the lack of additional content or updates to the original story since it's as old as 2014, while I would want huge changes, I would have preferred more build up to the new content other then some goblins mention some weird Goblins or at least have the new additional adventure play off of more of the old chapters like more work with the factions or some characters who are introduced and then never seen again, or even introduced new npcs earlier. I feel like there's a lot of cool stuff that can be done to iron out this adventure even for players who have already player lost mines.
I agree. I liked it well enough for what it was back when it first came out, and I think there was a big opportunity here to tether it to the _the shattered obelisk_ adventure, that was sadly missed.
I'm so getting Phandelver and Below to compare with Mt Lost Mine. I'm getting ready to run Lost Mine as my first real campaign outside of one shots. I've been making changes to villains such as Hamun Kost is Glasstaff in disguise, and the Blackspider is not Neznar but is controlling him. I'm hoping these changes and a few more let me bring back villains for later in game and make a few of the encounters more interesting.
and THAT is what D&D is really all about; using the tools to create what works best for you and your table. :)
great video GMs! I have run LMoP numerous times, but have yet to crack the new adventure....it's sitting right on my shelf giving me the stink eye for not doing so... ;P
Ooh.. you gotta at least thumb through it! It's pretty wicked!
The fact that places like old owl well and agatha's lair alongside portraits for npcs makes me more interested in checking out a wotc book (which is odd tbh considering recent events but heyo).
As a GM, how would you implement both phandelver and below and Dragon of icespire peak?
Personally, I'd rund LMoP from this new book, advance characters to level 4, run Icespire, advance to level... 7? Then go into SO but adjust some combat a touch to make it a touch harder..
I love that they added maps and character/ monster statblocks on the relevant pages. However I wish WotC could include packets full of such stat blocks and decent sized maps along with their books! Would remove the need to scour the web and have printer at hand. I like and see the pros with digital but stick with physical/ analogue as they do have pros over digital much as I can
Thanks for covering this book so much! I just pre-ordered because of your video and can't wait to start reading it. My main question is, at what level do you start the second part of the adventure, and does the progression feel good? I find it crazy how this adventure claims to get you to level 12, but if there is enough content for that, then that's amazing! After playing through BG3, that whole game is from levels 1-12, so for comparison, does it feel like its a massive adventure for a player, or is it smaller? Thanks for covering it!
This was super helpful, thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
The biggest disappointment for me with this is that the first half wasn't changed enough to lead into the second half. The second half feels very much "tacked on". I think there should have been more about the shards and obelisk mentioned. for example, the town could have been affected ealier on with signs suggesting the the lost mine has something to do with it only to find that the black spider found a shard there and is using it on the town n and then continues with the second half.
Also, as the first half is very much the lost mine of phandelver then i think WotC should have made a digital "the shattered obelisk" expansion that could be purchased by those who already own the first half rather than pay full price for what is essentially, the second half they don't own.
Yeah, I'll grant you that. I would have liked to have seen a bit more of a connection between the two.
Loving these in depth videos. My question is something you answered for the most part in another video.
There are no pre-made characters in this book, but what about the goals that were given with the pre-made characters in LMoP? If I gave those to the players getting ready for my upcoming campaign of P&B:SO, is that out of date, or will they still pertain to NPCs in Phandalin of the new book?
nah, it's not out of date, you 100% could give those goals to new players. There is a section on "backstories" that incorporates some of that into something for players tho, but not as in depth as the premade ones from a few years back : I've got that video dropping tomorrow : th-cam.com/video/GPX15XhZa7o/w-d-xo.html
@@gamemasters thank you so much, again. I appreciate you helping, and feel like I am set to get this campaign started in a couple of weeks!
Absolutely brilliant breakdown. New to this channel but have been looking at some of your videos and am blown away by your presentation style and to the point analysis. I'm just curious as to whether the black spider gets a bit more background and of the stat blocks are the same as he was considered pretty weak a final 'boss' at the time. Also, hope this is ok to ask. This is a 1-12 level campaign so are the final opponents cr12 enemies or do you get to face something a bit more powerful (no stat spoilers please just curious about challenge ratings if that's ok?). Many thanks indeed!
Overall the spider is pretty much the same, although his spell list is slightly different than from before. Also; yes, there is at least one monster in here that is a CR15.
@@gamemasters thank you so much for such a quick reply, appreciate it a lot! Definitely on my pick up list when this launches.
@@gamemastersI'd love the updated spell list if you get a chance and that's fair use enough. Ditto Glasstaff, if his spells are any different from the "evil mage" stats that he and the necromancer share in the original.
Amazing video as always ,thanks for all your helpful insights and comparisons .
i would love to know if the new book mentions where the shattered obelisk comes from exactly, as in its original location before its shattering ,hoping you can help me with this hot question 🥰.
looking forward to more of your awesome content . kind regards & stay magical 💙💙💙
good question and one that's not 100% answered but we do cover it in as much detail as we are aware here : th-cam.com/video/lv3wXO0p8Ng/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for the info and the quick reply 🫶🫶🫶
I loved the original LMOP adventure and it's variety of challenges and scenarios. Now I find myself wondering if the new Shattered Obelisc part will mostly be a crawl through a megadungeon? Or will there be enough opportunities for exploration and social interaction?
nah, it's not a mega-dungeon, but there is plenty of dungeon to explore.
As for social interaction, aye, there is a lot of room for players to socially engage should they choose (in fact I'm pretty sure the entire book could be completed without the need for combat - but that would take some VERY clever tactics on the party's part).
Thanks for the infodump! Just wonder... with all the psychic and psionic shenanigans and monsters.. Are Gem dragons (and gem dragonborns? ) introduced in the campaign? After reading Fizbans ToD, I get they are kinda trying to protect the material realm vs abberations. Especially underdark Sapphire dragons and Emerald dragons co-operate to get rid of such threats 😁 Having players converse and assist them would be neat!
no, nothing specific about gem dragons that I've run across.
There is an Amethyst dragon NPC that appears in one of the final chapters of the adventure to answer your question if a little late
Exactly what I needed!
I’m currently running this adventure, just getting ready to start the 4th section the echo cave. I decided to pause and hold out for the campaign so I would not miss out on any new content in the mine.
Question, watching ids from wizards I get the impression that they did drop hints or tie ins to the obelisk. They said they would mark areas like that with the green color. Are you not seeing anything like that?
From what you are showing there is only a very minor change to the cave
i've not run across anything blatant that ties in with the obelisk in the earlier levels, but I've not run the adventure itself yet in how it is presented (covid has had me knocked down since I got this book) but I admit there may be some passages that I've just not read in full detail where it mentions the obelisk. That said, from Chapter 5 on, the obelisk is mentioned all over the place.
Excellent video! Thank you!
thank you for watching!
Awesome work. I guess my only question is - do any of the NPCs established in the original version become far major players in the later Shattered Obelisk portion of the game?
sortav... I mean.. nothing major in terms of "X was a bad guy the entire time!" but there are a couple that pop back up in later chapters for the players to interact with.
I've currently got a party on part 3 of the original LMoP from the starter set. They've done thundertree but none of the other bits. My Q is at what point of the LMoP story do hooks for the obelisk story start appearing and is it easy enough to switch to the phan and below version mid story? Great Vids BTW. I was going to buy phan and below anyway but your videos have convinced me that I made the right choice.
Sadly, there really arent too many hooks that connect the first part to the second, but its super easy to make threads that connect (small odd weeds growing, mushrooms growing on sides of buildings, perhaps the odd small creature skittering through an alley, there are lots of good ways to connect them but I'm not fully sure why they didnt do more).
Good summary. I'll probably just save myself some money and incorporate these changes into LMoP.
That said, I don't like all the changes. Some of the enemy upgrades reflect the fact P&B is no longer a starter adventure for a group of Level Ones. I think I'd keep Agatha as a non-aggro NPC without a statblock too.
it 100% can be used with level 1 NPCs, the town itself is the same starter adventure that it always has been, up to about level 4 or 5. It's the below part that goes past that introductory adventure.
@@gamemasters
Perhaps, but the additional sprinkling of goblin bosses would make some of those early encounters that bit harder.
I'm looking to run LMoP for two D&D noobs, so I'm already considering amending some of the encounters - either reducing NPCs, increasing their starting level to 2, or adding in the "sidekick" statblocks from DoIP.
P&B looks that extra step harder that is probably more suited for experienced players and/or a Level 2+ party.
I'm not above TPK but given they're noobs, don't want to put them off the hobby with a TPK in the first hideout.
The Redbrand Ruffians are extremely nerfed in PaB. Their STR is increased to a 14 from 11, but their DEX is lowered from 14 to 10. They also wear leather armor now instead of studded leather. This results in a reduced AC of 11 from 14, and a reduced DEX save of +0 from +2. Their STR save does increase from +0 to +2, but this is a far less prevalent save than DEX. The major difference is the PaB version does not have multiattack, but it still uses a shortsword. This basically cuts the damage potential in half, and makes the new version hit more like a CR 1/4 or 1/8 even though it still lists the CR as 1/2.
i think this was done because many players died in that initial battle against them which caused a lot of DMs to nerf them on the onset (so I've heard).
Can you still combine the contents of the essentials box with the campaign?
Does that still work?
I mean... you _can_ . The DM just has to be a little craft with how.
@@gamemasters cool
@gamemasters I feel like you missed some of the more important additions with the foreshadowing of psionic goblins that ties into the later chapters. It provides early teases and foreshadowing
nah, just not trying to spoil the entire book. :)
What are the hooks provided in the campaign for somebody who wants to start right after the ending of the original campaign?
ooh! good question! Main hook is that the people of Phandalin are appearing to get sick, odd foliage and mushrooms are growing on the sides of buildings and in the cracks in the streets, just small odd things like that. There is an odd cow...
Ohhh a third question…. How does ice peak feat into this? Can we replace the LMoP with Ice peak and then move to Shattered Obelisk?
Icepeak doesn't fit into this. There is nothing to stop you from incorporating it in with a little _DM Magic_ though.
It sounds like my biggest disappointments is that they didn’t do much more to forshadow the blackspider or to make him a more imposing villain. Even if they would have tied him to the power emanating from the obelisk in some way it would have been better. They didn’t make better use of the doppelgängers. Maybe have Harbin westor originally replaced by a doppelgänger who is working to thwart the npcs and having real Harbin trapped in the jail in the keep. They didn’t really tie in some of the side quests they feel more like just fetch quests Agatha, old owl well, etc..and it sounds like they removed most orcs from Wyvern tor which I liked originally since it was easy to tie those orks into DoIP. They also didn’t add a section to make the party interact or care more about Gundren and the rock seeker brothers. Even an opening sequence where Gundren recruits delivery guards in Neverwinter would have been nice. I guess as the DM I need to incorporate some of these issues instead.
I mean.. as a DM.. I do that anyways.. otherwise there would be no need for a DM.. :P
As a brand new DM currently running this campaign, I've found Matthew Perkins' TH-cam series helps me solve almost all of your dissatisfactions with the original campaign. Of course, the fact that you identified them without help means that you're probably better equipped to deal with them without help, but it's worth checking out if you want to save time inventing the wheel.
I especially like his fix for involving Gundren and the Black Spider earlier and more interestingly. (Gundren also hired you to retrieve a Mcguffin which allows people to bypass the spectator or whatever. The Black Spider shows up in Phandalin to try to trade for it. Combat may or may not ensue (the doppelganger might appear here), the Mccguffin may or may not be lost, but the real victory is that the party leans to hate the Black Spider and love Gundren.)
Sounds good I’ll look it up… but still it would have been cool if the blackspider was one of the first corrupted individuals from the phandelver and below. Have them tie him into the new story.. because right now it sounds like you just walk back into phandelver and everyone is starting to get sick. There isn’t any connection and I still don’t know why the blackspider was so focused on wave echo cave.
Does The Black Spider have a better stat block in this or does he still have a stat block that will die in 2 hits and deal little damage?
Nezznar the Spider has the same Stats, same AC same HP. Only difference is a choice of spells.
Does any foreshadowing or elements of the plot for the Shattered Ooblisk appear in the Lost Mines of Phandelver part of this adventure?
Or do the PCs deal with Wave Echo Cave and a brand new story begins?
Also does the adventure cover how profitable the mine is once it is cleared?
it doesn't address how profitable the mine is. It sortav just begins a new story.. but not at the same time because... "things" happen in the town each time they (the players) come back to it, and that itself ties into the next section.
@@gamemastersOk thanks for that. I'm jumping back to 5e after a year with PF2e and this seemed like a good place to start since I ran the original and enjoyed it.
The changes are much smaller than I imagined, good to know
aye, nothing super major
My players will never accept the Nothic having a name other than Bob.
I personally feel changing GlassStaff familiar to a Quasit makes the spying/pretending to be a lot harder compare to a rat, do seem more intresting if the players get to fight him.
lol bob, I'll take it!
I purchased it on D&D Beyond, but I don’t have access to it yet. How are people reading it on there, I thought pre-ordering gave you access early?
if you preordered it, you should have received a key code to unlock it. Ensure your email is correct and check your spam folder?
Nice video . Thank you
Thank you for watching! :)
"Nezbor" is no longer called 'the black spider'
Nezznar* is now simply named 'the spider'
correct
Oh my goodness, wow! The horses aren't dead in this one! What a world of difference!
These "differences" are some of the most miniscule details that have literally zero bearing on the actual adventure.
...which is exactly what I stated in the video... multiple times.
@@gamemasters Yup. We agree. I'm just disappointed.
@@rukysgream It's designed to immortalize the original adventure in a complete campaign, without changing it too much so it's still the original Lost Mines, just with a few minor tweaks that are barely noticed.
The horse change I can understand is probably because many people aren't fans of animals or children suffering. D&D has changed and gained a much wider audience since the day Lost Mines was originally published, so they updated it to prevent that issue at the very opening of the campaign.
@@okuraorca It's full price for half a book. Lazy cash grab by WotC.
I saw elsewhere that there might be a new creepy quasi- religious fanatic goblin throwing his weight around in Crawmaw Castle. Is there anything additional I should know (and you can share) about running him if my players go there before my copy of the new book arrives? Thanks!
hmm.. only one I can think of is a goblin boss named Lhupo, who styles herself as a priest, and her “acolytes,” a pair of goblins, but none have any actual divine powers. I think she fights with a scimitar.
New DM/Player here. I've tried running LMoP with 4 of my friends some time ago and the cave with the goblins in the beginning of the game resulted in a TPK. It seemed very likely that at least one player would die, having in mind the low health pool of the players and the number of opponents.
Is something changed in the initial difficulty levels of the adventure?
nope, nothing has changed in terms of difficulty, they just gotta get creative. Remind them that not all encounters must devolve into a fight or battle.
@@gamemasters Thanks for the suggestion! The intention that the Cragmaw Hideout should be fought through though is so explicit in the adventure, that it never occurred to me that it could be passed in some other way. It is said that:
- the goblins in the goblin guard post directly open fire when they notice the adventurers
- the goblin on the bridge signals for the flood release and then throws javelins down at the characters when he sees them
- Yeemik only starts negotiating with the characters after he sees that "they are getting the upper hand"
- Sildar wants to "put a stop to the goblin raids by clearing out the caves"
- Klarg tries to ambush the characters if he was informed about them. Otherwise they "have a good chance to surprise" him.
I wish that the adventure made suggestions on how it would be possible to pass these encounters without going into a fight. As is however, it seems like 4 lvl 1 characters are supposed to beat 15 goblins, 1 bugbear and 1-4 wolves. It didn't seem very beginner friendly neither to my players, nor to me as a new DM.
Why do you think they made the 1 npc a drow rather than elf other than going to the under dark/below in this new one?
I'd have to point back at Monsters of the Multiverse in which players can RP as some "creatures" now and that not all "monsters" are evil. This is to simply show that not all Drow are evil (which has really been the case since AD&D days - even monsters have not always been always evil).
It's because WOTC thinks that the idea of half-races is racist, they could have easily put a good aligned drow in the book but they decided to race change the half-elf instead, don't be surprised if you no longer see half-elves in future books along with half-orcs, and any other half race, they took out half-elves and half-orcs out of the new players handbook and told you to essentially just play an orc, human, or elf and pretend its a *redacted*.
The character originally had silver hair so he was probably already a half-drow.
Couple of questions:
1.
Is Glasstaff (no sure the name, the Wizard Villan that escape at the end of the LMoP) part of the rest of the story? Or he just disappeared?
Is The Shattered Obelisk really connected to Phandelver and Below or is just more like 2 adventures that can be play one after the other?
1) Glasstaff - that depends.. I mean, if he isn't (spoiler spoiler spoiler) then I think (spoiler spoiler).
2) Is Shattered Obelisk really connected to Phand and Below? - Yes.
Can you just start with shattered obelisk? Or is a lot of LmoP's plot connected to it?
you for sure could start with just Shattered Obelisk. I might add a small preamble just to set the stage, but for sure you could drive right into chapter 5.
Does Phandelver Mines remain important after completing the 1 part of the book? It sounds like those part are not really connected and the second part could possibly be put anywhere, for example after Dragon Heist campagn...
I love Lost Mines, it was my first campaign as a player and as a DM. And even thought it is easy to play - the story is really boring. The Black Spider figure is very intriging, but at the end he turns out to be a simple SR 2 mage without motivation. There is a great potential, and I've changed the adventure greatly with my players (e.x. Black Spider was not some regular drow, but a Drider that hoped to use Mines to create a powerfull artifact to create Eternal Night on the surfice). But I also hoped Phandelver and Below would make work on mistakes, do it better and create great plot hooks to the second part of adventure...
I still be waiting though! To fix mistakes of my first playthrought and add more players personal content!
the 1st part doesn't exactly tether to the 2nd, but it does at the same time... Kinda doesn't make sense does it?
So.. each time the players return to Phandalin, _things_ are _different_ and it is that that connects the two. That all said, if you want a bigger challenge, have the doppelganger that appears have actually been in the town from day one, should be plenty of NPCs to interact with and since the dopp can appear as anyone... (this is what I did with the dopp anyways).
I ran LMoP & DoIP combined for my younger kids (7, 10, 13) a couple of years ago, and they loved it. Would you have an age/maturity rating you could recommend for the new part? I've heard it gets pretty creepy.
for the new part... i mean, I think 7, 10, 13 (now 9, 12, 15) should be fine. Just keep in mind if there is an element that is a little over the top, tune it down. likewise if it's not enough, crank it up. :)
@gamemasters thanks! That's been my general approach, of course. I just wanted to make sure it wouldn't be a waste if it wasn't suitable for my primary player group.
I my copy of Lost Mines the wolves are chained not in cages.
odd..
Mine too.
Love this video
thank you for watching! :)
There is a generic "evil mage" stat block that Glasstaff shares with Hamun Kost in Lost Mine of Phandelver...
I kinda hope there'd be more constructive advice for new DMs on how tie it all together and more smoothly drop hooks for the "side quests" etc, the way the original was set up wasn't particularly intuitive - if you didn't use the pregens you'd struggle to tie the plot together in some parts, and the hooks and info are all over the place...
yes, I pinned that exact thing as the main comment a couple of days ago. :)
@@gamemasters somehow didn't see that... 😅
so changing glassstaffs rat to a different creature is a big mistake if you have a druid in the party, that little rat led the adventurers straight into a trap! the rat actually stuck with the party for quite some time because they had no idea he was the badguys familiar, just saying
i can see that as a play by the DM, and the thing is, that's a simple enough alteration to change it back to being a rat.
Subscribed.
appreciate it! What's the go to setting for you and your group?
@@gamemasters what do you mean??
like where do you guys play, the setting (homebrew, forgotten realms, ravenloft, dragonlance, etc) that you play in the most?
@@gamemasters we are in Chult (ugh, I really hate the Tomb of Annihilation campaign) so it looks like we are gonna do a better campaign, one with ACTUAL rewards. And on alternate Wednesday evenings it’s Dragonlance, so Chult and Krynn switching off on Wednesday evenings. I play a Dragonborn Paladin of Bahamut.
Thanks for listing the changes, looks to me just like wizards made changes to fit their agenda. Gonna buy the book and just keep the original content as it should be from the source material.
I don't really see any "agenda" just cosmetic changes. I mean, if you want to flip to the back of the original pamphlet style book to grab a stat block instead of getting it where it actually appears in the new book because of some "agenda"... by all means?
@@gamemasters I think they're referring to the random changes to NPCs, like Elmar to Elmina and making Edermath a Drow instead of a Half-Elf. They may be "cosmetic," but it does make a significant impact for those who've already played Phandelver. There's no need for these to be changed, and it messes with DMs planning to run Shattered Obelisk with those players. Sure, you could just revert the changes back to the way they were in Phandelver, but depending on the number of like changes, it may be a hassle to keep track of while running the book.
@@EitherProductions It's minor stuff; just two NPCs.
The half-elf to drow change is likely to have it clear that not *all* drow are evil (since the first major baddy is a drow) and to step away a bit from the half races. That makes sense, as the original campaign was made when 'all drow are evil, but there are rare cases of heroes' was the norm, before they stepped back from a single race is always evil mentality and their decision to change the basis of the half races as well, means they can correct two issues with a single change.
The Elmer to Elmina is a bit more head scratching, but it is what it is.
Also, as a DM if you don't want to keep track of that, you can just say to the players out of game, "Hey, so a couple of things have changed in the adventure, so to keep things in track, NPC A is now a X and always has been." Players generally accept that things change and are happy to retroactively adjust things if you approach them about it.
@@okuraorca It's minor stuff you say, but suddenly because wotc decided half-elves weren't politically correct my character is something different now by the standards of their new rules. These changes and many more incremental steps towards woke identity politics are unnecessary.
@@okuraorca I think a more elegant solution would've been to make a new NPC to represent that there are good Drow and either add them to one of the quest locations, or to introduce the party to said character once the players head to the Underdark and need a friendly guide. Either way, if it's just those two NPCs throughout the entire book, then my conjecture about potential hassle is definitely reduced by a large margin.
I'm currently running a Phandelver campaign myself as a first time DM, and I did custom art for the major Phandalin NPCs (since there wasn't any official art available at the time I made them), so Elmar is staying Elmar in my game. However, my players never went to the orchard, so I could very easily make that change if I followed up the campaign with the Shattered Obelisk. I probably won't, though, because the way WotC has advertised this book/adventure doesn't jive with me or fit where our campaign has been heading. I don't know if that's a valid observation or WotC just being bad at advertising their products to people like me who have no interest in horror/Cthullu elements but might be interested in the underlying structure of the adventure. At this point, I'll have to flip through it at my local game store to see if it's worth investing in.
Looking at nothic lore, they were apparently mages cursed by Vecna or maybe creatures from the Far Realm. Is either relevant in the new adventure, or is this nothic just still a random spooky guy with no greater significance?
not exactly relevant.. but it might be... see this video : th-cam.com/video/lv3wXO0p8Ng/w-d-xo.html
For me lost mines is the worst campaign I ever DM. It's purpose to introduce new players and new DM to play DnD. How new players should know how to fight dozens of deadly goblins in a single cave? Why should they leave their main mission (provisions) behind?
In phandalin every party I DM'd decided to just sit in village and wait until all redbrands are get out from mansion on their own. Why should players get inside unknown location if bad guys should notice that part of their gang is missing and go check on them?
And then... we don't know where the castle is, let's do some random quests?
And the most stupid loot - axe which can deal full damage to living trees, which is given after all living trees in game are (mostly) eradicated.
The campaign forced me to answer so many awkward questions to players, like why all this people who live in phandalin and have weapon shop (who's owner is against redbrands) do not cooperate and not beat the shit out of 3 redbrands who came here often? Why we can't ask help from Sildar and his order form Neverwinter to assault castle/cave?
And whole campaign is just village, dungeon (cave), dungeon (mansion), wondering around in forest (book does not say to new DM to not spam random encounters), dungeon (thundertree), dungeon (castle), dungeon (echo cave).
I did not finish every time I started phandelver, it is just bad.
I would like to change a lot in this campaign, but at this point it is easier to just pick another one from starter ones.
my experience has never been this.. I mean, you don't have to fight anything at all, you can get through most of the adventure by talking your way out, I even had a party hire the goblins to take on the redbrands (tho I do admit that most parties go in for a bloodbath).
As for where is the castle (I assume you mean tresendar manor?), it's right there, on top of the hill, wouldn't even need to roll a perception check to see it.
regarding the Axe, I think it's Hew? as best I recall it does damage to all plant creatures and extra damage to things made of wood (like tables and chests).
I dunno, players I've taken through here have always enjoyed it.
@@gamemastersHe has a point this book has a lot of problems especially the ending just being three dungeons in a row of slugfests except Venomfang, I’m gunna need to add a magic shop and change a lot of the encounters in Echo to avoid that. Also the xp is a pain in the ass, I see no way my players could realistically reach level 5 with the huge bump in do requirement
So releasing a “new” book and doing nothing to combat these problems is not worth buying this at all
Wait. What? I thought this was a follow up adventure. Is it really just a remake?
It's a two part adventure, so chapters 1 to 4 are a "remake" but the rest of the chapters make up the "The Shattered Obelisk" portion of the adventure which is new.
What I absolutely dislike:
Making Daran a Drow. Just... why?
Tacking on the below. It feels random. The original adventure is not reworked enough to warrant this development, at all.
All in all, Phandelver and Below was a missed opportunity to flesh out the adventure and the backstories of various NPCs and locations - talking about Mormesk and The Black Spider here obviously. But WotC seems simply too afraid to do that and provide antagonists worthy of their name?
I'll lean to your view for a moment because I DO recognize that missed opportunity. I think that they really should have made an effort to connect the two adventures, and it could have been done in such a subtle.. but powerful way too. That all said, I do think the Shattered Obelisk portion is good and really does stand on it own.
Did....did you delete my question?
I've not deleted any comments or questions. If it has a link in it, then YT automatically removes those.
@@gamemasters That's very strange. I had basically just asked, because I'm assuming that Shattered Obelisk continues to take place in Phadalin, if the changes to the town that happen in Dragon of Icespire Peak are addressed or apparent. Because I always assumed that doip was a kind of sequel or followup to lmop.
aye, SO still takes place in Phandalin. There does not appear to be any connection to Dragon of Icespire in this.
Just lazy. It's probably fine, but I hate it on principle. There's an entire Sword Coast where they could have popped in a new town. Not too mention an entire continent of Forgotten Realms.
they went with this setting because it worked and with them being under so much hot water at the moment, they feel like they need a win, so going with something that many 5e players recognize makes it automatically popular (for most). Personally, I'd like to see a massive tome set in and around Waterdeep. There is a lot of potential content for there that we just haven't really seen since ad&d days.
I can't believe they avoided killing horses. I'm guessing this is to appease some squeemish people who don't like seeing violence to animals (in a game that will see scores of goblins, orcs and other creatures rent asunder.) However, it makes the encounter make less sense: when the players show up there is no goblin kidnapper squad. They use arrows, so how did the goblins make the previous caravan stop? And when they did, they chose to do what? Let the horses run free? There is a lot of meat on a horse, I imagine a goblin tribe would value them considerably, especially considering they have to feed a kennel as well. Then the horses just decided to hang around the area that there was violence?
I'm also not a huge fan of changing the good NPC to a drow, when a drow is a villain of the piece. It muddles the narrative unnecessarily.
the horse change is a little strange, and I came to the same conclusion that you did. I can't say as it bothers me either way... as for the NPC becoming a drow, that too confuses me because the main bbeg in the 1st part of the adventure is.. a drow. All I can figure is that they are going out of their way to say.. "not all drow are evil"? Which in and of itself doesn't make any sense because... that's kindav always been the case anyways.
So it basically just a reprint of the original adventure with gender bending, race swapping and an extension at the end.
I'm sure that for most people, if it was an issue, they change it back. And yes, there is a higher level adventure added.
A lot of the changes are good tho it seems it got the revamped treatment and was sent to the woke sanitizers. No half races, arbitrary NPC diversity swaps, transformation consent and some random changes to animals because PETA triggers i guess.
that's the thing, if there is an element that one doesn't want, one can always change it.. I've got LOTS of notes in my books as I do this with several books
Not a fan of the woke NPC changes. Changing a half-elf into a drow is a big change.
how is that a big _woke_ change?
@@gamemasters half-races are deemed racist by wizards. Thats the only reason for the change. Therefore it is a woke change.
Most drow are evil, half-elfs are not. Therefore in some places Drow are attacked on sight. Changing an NPC into a drow is therefore a big change.
I believe they are dropping half-anything in the upcoming new edition. Apparently the WotC universe is so enlightened that inter race relations are not allowed. I'm sure that will keep everyone happy.@@gamemasters
I dunno, I guess I just don't see it as a major world halting issue. If it's something I don't agree with, I can easily change it at my table... and move on.
@@gamemasters its a major NPC / adventure change, and potentially a major world change too.
I would use the original half-elf NPC to avoid any of this.
Just a nit-pick here, neither change was necessary, but changing Daran Edermath from a half-elf to a Drow reinforces the concept that not all Drow are evil, while changing Elmar to Elmina serves nothing other than to be a bit of a virtue signal. It's nothing to get upset about, but to me smacks of "look how inclusive/progressive we are!" In any case, it's the same adventure, the changes are just minor cosmetics and a bit of streamlining. I guess the question becomes, is Shattered Obelisk worth the investment if you already own LMoP? For me, the answer is "no," but that mainly has to do with the direction the executives are taking the business. Keys to the Golden Vault seemed pretty cool, Shattered Obelisk seems pretty cool -but I'm still not willing to support them financially at this time. 🏴☠
lots of folks are choosing not to support them, and that's okay. That's what a free market is all about.
@@gamemasters it's a shame, though. Keys to the Golden Vault looked good, and fleshing out LMoP into a mini campaign, I'm all for it... but I'm not for the way the execs are treating the hobby and the fans.
I mean, I appreciate having some decent female characters to balance the male ones, but with Linene, Halia, and Qelline as businesswomen and Sister Garaele as ... helpful cleric? we probably weren't in danger of having no competent ladies around. Then again, all the most important NPCs (Gundren, Sildar, Stonehill, Bart, Harbin, Glasstaff, Black Spider, Klarg, Grol, etc) are guys, so making another of the NPCs the players are likely to actually interact with a woman isn't TOO bad in my book.
But I'm currently halfway through the original campaign, so my characters are staying the races and classes I already introduced them as. (Some races and genders switched up to make the game slightly less predictable in telling who is good vs evil and which person is the big bad.)
@@uffish2 Right? There's already a wealth of competent female NPCs in Phandalin, it's not as though it was male dominated. Quelline was already girl bossing it -refusing to sell arms to the Redbrands. I think a more exciting gender swap would have been Iarno or Nezznar -which still would have served little purpose, but it would have been interesting.
>but to me smacks of "look how inclusive/progressive we are!"
Trust me, this is subtle. This is minor stuff tweaked about to make minor changes that make little difference to the grand scope. The half-elf to drow change made sense as it corrects two issues with a single change, but doesn't wave it about.
If you want beating over the head and waving about inclusivity, Disney is an example. Look at a lot of their recent live action movies, like Peter Pan and Little Mermaid. They wave the inclusivity in the face of the viewers even commenting on it in movie (Peter Pan's Lost Boys moment and 'I guess it doesn't really matter' comment is beating people over the head.