Legality and Limits of Police Wellness Checks (John's Briefs)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ก.ย. 2024
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What can someone do if a person sends their cop friends to do a bogus “wellness check”, detains them, tells them they’re doing a wellness check because someone said they were suicidal, a threat to others and using drugs, then searches their vehicle without their consent or a warrant, admits they know it wont hold up in court and they don’t expect it to and dont care. The cops act with arrogance because they know there will be no consequence for them. What could that person do in that case ?
Make sure their body cam is on and let your attorney issue the beat down in court.
Great subject. We had a case in Fort Wayne where I live, where a guy called for a wellness check for his mother in her apartment. He waited for the police to get there and the police found his mother inside dead of multiple stab wounds. The problem was the police noticed the son had bandages on his arm that looks suspicious. They took the son to the police station for questioning and found out that the son had gone to the mother's apartment and asked her for money. When the mother would not give him her debit card he killed her and received injuries from her fighting him off. He tried to use the wellness check to make it look like he knew nothing about her death. He didn't get away with it, and was arrested.
Big oof.
The problem is that crank calls happen.
Yeah this is where we need a lot more of social workers and wellness programs.
Right, I'd much prefer some oblivious, bright-eyed, recent psychology grad to get knocked out by a felon with a shovel. That's a much better outcome.
In a perfect fairy land world sure. But the real world where people subject to these checks are mentally ill, violent, have weapons etc... Who else but police could attend?
In my City as a Firefighter/Paramedic we get called with police. We have to respond right away( the nearest company) so many times Police don’t make it with us because of stacked calls. I always wondered what are we walking into unarmed.
Man that sounds super sketchy Jim!
There was a case in Arkansas the EMTs were the first to show up on a call. One of them knocked on the door and when the door opened he was shot and killed.
The decision to go or wait has got to be tough. Is there a gun behind the door or somebody that doesn't have the time to wait. Personally, I believe you should take care of yourself first. Without you, nobody gets help.
In our town EMS responds with PD. We wait for PD and follow. It's always...interesting. Probably half the checks I've been on are generated by Dr office or dialysis center when pt misses appt, doesn't return calls, other half family. We usually need to transport the pt, occasionally a very sick pt who we transport emergent.
What i want to know is if you can't declare "wellness breaking and entering" off limits. It cuts the a reasonable person would want it to happen argument right out.
Kinda like do not resuscitate orders.
Such a great topic guys! Keep up the great work Terry and John!
Thanks John and Terry.
Our pleasure!
There merely request for a welfare check does not create exigency and if police arrive at someone’s house for a welfare check and the person tells them “hey I’m ok. Leave” they need to leave unless they have objective evidence of exigency. They can’t just say “no I’m not leaving because someone called here.” Again, cops needs to respect a persons rights to be free of unreasonable government intrusion.
We never said contrary.
Wellness checks were used against me when the persons calling knew I was at work. 3 times. Obvious harassment. Nothing done
I had been collecting granite that was thrown away from shops. I’d make table tops , pavers, ect. Some very large pieces. I’m sure they thought they had to be stolen. They were in my backyard. I wish I knew now that harassment was just the beginning.
the vile neighbors . I spin art . don't answer the door ever
Second worst call to go on, domestic being probably the worst
Domestic definitely the worst.
things would be a lot better if we were all more neighborly and actually checked on each other
instead of calling the damn cops.....
@@ch3cksund3ad The problem is law suits and other issues. I saw my neighbor's door swung wide open a month ago. We've talked before, but I'm usually gone most of them time they're around. In any case, it's not super abnormal for their front door to be open when they're around, but I didn't see anyone. I go to the house after 10 minutes of the door being wide open. I'm wondering if someone is hurt or some asshole is all up in their stuff so I ring the door bell and yell "hello." I hear nothing. Now, I'm wondering what happens if I go in there? Someone could pop up and think I'm an intruder for whatever reason (and get shot). I could run into an intruder and have to hurt someone or possibly get hurt. In either case, I'd have a hell of a time in court with that. This was just a fraction of the scenarios that ran through my head standing in front of their door. Hence, wellness check. I hate it for cops. I really do, but even as a concerned citizen, I have no idea what the legal boundaries are. The courts don't give a crap about moral or ethical boundaries.
@@SnapD24 the courts not caring is really the BIGGEST part of that issues, because people are too afraid to help eachother because of court... more to my point that the system just sucks, and doesnt work or help society.
In that instance I feel like ringing the doorbell a couple times wouldve been a good idea as well, then dealt with whatever scenario from their
That is more of a strange scenario though, I hope they were okay
@@ch3cksund3ad I agree. It's what really sucks even though my intent is to try to be a decent person.
As for the neighbors, they were fine. Apparently, they all went out earlier and one of the kids didn't close and lock the door like they should.
Totally understand the perspective from the police walking into an unknown situation. My perspective is that as a citizen of a free republic, if I desire to be left alone, I should have that right and nosy family and neighbors should mind their own business.
I absolutely agree. Nobody has a legal obligation to answer their phone or their door to anybody, not even family or friends. The fact that family and friends can get the authorities involved in such matters is crazy. Yes, I know that people worry about their loved ones, but getting the authorities involved is not the answer....not unless there's a crime involved.
@@EBR1 Refer to Benjamin Franklin regarding the trade off between freedom and safety. You have it right!
The saddest thing is that wellness checks are just an overreach of an invented doctrine. Community caretaking is another invented doctrine, used to violate the 1st, 4th, 5th and 6th Ammendments. Invented by courts and obviously unconstitutional. Courts, even scotus, do not make law, except they sadly started doing so. I hope this gentleman is better at criminal defense than ConLaw.
Oh, I disagree with those assertions.
I work at a grocery store and constantly have to call police for a wellness checks for all the drunk, high hippies that are in danger of harming themselves and others. Cops are great in handling these situations with arrests or siting trespass and many times they all have warrants out for them.
@Ti Klim what does this even mean?
Thanks John and Terry!!! For the love of FRANK John would you please link to the original video Lol I’ve been saying it since day one of these and I’m sure a lot of other viewers would appreciate it 👍🏼
Added to the description. th-cam.com/video/uuOxvPIxEj4/w-d-xo.html
@@ASPextra you rock John!!!
Live in a 8 story senior tower for elderly and disabled. Wellness checks are most often called when a neighbor smells the "death smell," to check in the hope the they are mistaken. Don't know why the management doesn't do this. My guess is that they (and maintenance) doesn't handle finding a deceased person too well.
So the morale of the story is don't call the cops 🤔
I would prefer that people are walking in the light with the Lord Jesus Christ and therefore have nothing to hide if a police officer were to walk into their house
I feel so strongly about this. Police must be respected and do their job, but they are also very compassionate people and what would the world be without people helping out compassionately 6:28
What if you have an active no tresspas order on the perspn calling in the check? They shouldn't be watching your property they can't go in it?
@4:18 enforce the law according to the terms they interpret them. The Supreme Court ruled its not the job of the Police to protect us the citizens. Their job is always to identify extort and escalate then intimidate. The police could and should act differently but choose to maintain the gang mentality. I found in life if you treat people right they usually return the favor
Please answer this: why have local Police come 5-6 X's and have no uniform, instead a jumpsuit... but, none have ID, badge, and our apartment manager and tenant is have played this game towards me.
Wellness checks are a slippery slope. One of the few issues for policing that might actually need reviewed.
The slippery slope is mostly a logical fallacy. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
Ill never stop commenting how important and informative these discussions are! I’m not a huge fan of ASP but these legal videos are vital
Well that's hurtful.
They came I told them I’m fine and they could leave
I turned to walk back into my shop and they shoved the door into my back cutting my back and knocked me to the ground and cut my arm.
Then they handcuffed me and took me to the hospital
The dr told me I had to give a blood and urine sample.
I told him he had no right to even detain me I was not under arrest I committed no crimes I got up and I walked the 16 1/2 miles back home on foot nice wellness check I was fine right up until the dip dingdong sheriffs department roughed me up and cut me and made me walk all day no it’s bull crap
I cant find anything in regards to a wellness check being on the sidewalk. just had a "wellness check" TODAY.
This is BS
Someone swings a shovel at you you'll quite likely get knocked unconscious.. Bit of the magic gun thinking there.
I'm no lawyer, and I invite any attorneys to comment on this thread and set me straight if I'm incorrect about this, but it is my understanding that a person has no legal obligation to answer another person's calls or to answer the door to them if one does not want to....for ANY reason. Lets say you decide you want to cut your family out of your life...whether we agree with that decision or not, that is your choice and you have no LEGAL obligation to answer family members' calls or attend to them if they knock on your door. Is this not a fact? We can argue that not answering the phone is selfish and therefore immoral, but we can't be getting the police or even social services involved just because a family member is behaving in an immoral fashion by not speaking to us.....or can we? So, being that a person has no legal obligation to answer their phone or to speak to anybody they do not wish to speak to, what then gives police the right to visit somebody's home just because they have chosen not to answer their phone...when making that choice is legally within their rights?
You’re conflating different issues. A wellness check is just that. The police are checking that the person is okay. They show up somewhere and the person in question is okay, then the police leave them be. They checked in. The person is well. Have a nice day.
@@ASPextra Right, but if the wellness check is prompted by somebody choosing to exercise their right to refuse to answer their phone or door, that's where the two issues merge. It just concerns me that if I were to exercise said right, I could end up with cops at my door.
Wellness checks started as a need to save/help the elderly & infirm. In the days before LIFE ALERT (I've fallen & I can't get up) people would end up finding Gram Brunch or Paw Paw dead on the living room floor after a fall or a stroke. A family friend from the early 70's was traumatized at the age of 12 by finding her Grandmother dead on her back Porch. She's fallen about EIGHT DAYS EARLIER and broken her hip. She'd laid there for days, in agony all alone & the medical examiner said she'd finally died 3 days before my friend discovered her. She told me she'll never forget how her Garndma looked. Many of the people attacking police should be institutionalized as EVERY CIVILIZED COUNTY DOES except us because (PICK A REASON) Only in America do we allow mentally ill people with a HISTORY OF VIOLENCE to roam at will. We need to do better for these Officers & the public.
How do they enter
how do i call one on my boyfriend of 2 years in college i don’t know his dorm and he’s in a different state but would it get him in trouble if i call them to a college would it cost money? he just stopped responding one day and he always makes sure to message me at least once a day. i know the college his name and his roommates name and that’s it.
I would call the college first.
When I was a cop went on many a wellness check (we called them welfare concerns). Fortunately most were benign. The person not there and no harm no foul, but I did go to many that there was a corpse in the home. A few where you could see flies inside or smell the decomposition near the doors or windows. Not a fun call, believe me. None of them were random. All had been initiated by a neighbor, co-worker, family member etc. A few we had to make entry by breaking in or entering through an unsecured window or door. Again, kinda scary doing that. Not a fun call.
I understand how difficult it’s for officers to going into these situations. However, didn’t I see one video from you where the home owner heard some rumbling outside so she had her firearms for self-defense and he shot through her windows and kill her? As a self defender I’m extremely concerns of being shot dead from doing all legal actions to protect myself and family. I still think that welfare checks are necessary but the law need to make certain that an officer can’t enter my home without an actual warrant.
It was a he, and that has happened. That wasn't a wellness check, but I get your point.
John try not to cut off the other guy as much, it seems like he is trying to finish his sentence. Nonetheless, good discussion to have in today’s setting. God Bless
With the big push to defund the police depts. or reconfigure the departments to have social workers on patrol... I could see social workers taking the lead on wellness checks. That being said... the police will be involved if they need to break in to check on someone. Interesting topic.
Just leave people alone!
What if the police need to break in to help someone who is down in the living room that they have seen through a window... and then once in to help they spot something illegal. Can they legitimately charge a person with a crime that they would not have known about if they had not broken in?
Officers in emergency of overdose couldn't get in
But amazingly open n enter my apartment todo
Welfare check......
Excellent!
This is my favorite asp with amazing insight. Definitely at cops discretion.
Nothing like cleaning up after somebody else as per their life. That said bring the whole family over on it
I just had a clinic do this to me when they didn't answer their phone. Its manipulative. She weaponized the police against me because of my race.
I never had them contact Me
Good topic
They knew where I was
Ask him about Caniglia v. Strom
So I can legally file a false police report for a police officer detaining me on a wellness check
I don’t have a legal record and i did nothing violent I opened the door to talk to them
The. I was detained
You can file a report. Whether that does anything is a separate issue, but you can always file a complaint.
Detention isn't a real big deal though, in most cases.
Hold the line! great content.
Troopers never contacted Me
I NEED ADVICE.. what if they went in to the suicidal persons place of business with not announcement or communication of why they were there..
Call a lawyer.
What is the officer? Is at your home for a wellness? Check windows with flashlight does not knock on the door, but walks out back to your sliding glass door. Shines a flashlight in you eyes,
See your ok and you tell him to get the hell off your property according to law, he supposed to leave but he doesn’t. He has a swat team show up said you were a terroristic threat.
I think you’re speculating an awful lot here and that’s not helpful.
they get 8 hours training. licensed therapist , I have my stalker , impersonating a therapist . 😮 3 times in 24 hours . NJ crazy
I was tired i pulled over in a rather empty parking lot rolled down my windows and took a nap only to have some passive aggressive "Concerned Citizen" call the cops. My windows were down walk up and say excuse me Sir. Check to see if my chest is moving are my lips blue. There are a fee ways to see if i was breathing. But instead i get woke by 2 fire engines 1 ambulance and 2 cop cars. Now im surrounded by emts and police i have to explain what i am doing and why im there. The squad verified i was okay and left. Now the cops jump on me and make contact demand ID and give me the basic are you on drugs any weapons. Then they proceeded to ask if they could search my car. Remember i was tryin to take a nap cause i didn't want to be a hazard on the road. I said no thanks he called the k9 unit fishing for felony's. Sarcastically i apologized for being tired maybe 4 times before they left me alone. Each time i have sn interaction with armed strangers my life is also at risk. Where i live we are ranked 10th in the United States for Death by cop. Meaning my chance of getting shot is higher that most. I wish we could get past this ID everyone just in case bullshit. Catch us breaking the law or leave us alone. Sleeping in my car was not a crime but was detained and treated like it was. #KarensSuck
I had that happen 4 times in a year when working a remodeling job an hour away. It’s fricking hard to find a place that u can sleep without interruption
@@Bone89 it's frustrating minding our own business not hurting anyone just trying to rest..
I'll open the second story widow and tell them to get off if my property. They will not get my id. They will not enter my house.
I bet you're fun at parties.
@@ASPextra nope. I'm an asshole.
But at least I admit it.
Maybe rethink your life choices.
@@ASPextra No thanks. I like me just the way I am.
Can you refuse a wellness check? If I want to die shouldn’t I have the freedom to do so? I don’t speak English well so I don’t understand the video much. I have used google translate!
The police have a duty to check in if asked to make sure you’re not an active danger to self or others.
@@ASPextra So if there's somebody who doesn't want to speak to me anymore, and I keep calling them and they ignore my calls, and I go to their home and knock on their door and they refuse to answer .....does this mean I get to call the authorities, be they police or social services, to do a "wellness check" on somebody?
@@EBR1 Yes it does mean that. What is so hard to understand about it?
A man with a felony warrant against him isn't a gentleman.
Hello, if a loved one isn't responding to texts or calls, but is still active on social media. And is suspected of heavy drug use. Is this the time for a welfare check?
Is it time for you to go over to their home and check on them? Yes. Is it time to call the cops to go do that? No.
@@ASPextra what if they don't let us talk to her?
@@ASPextra what if they don't let us talk to her?
Who is "they"?
@@ASPextra the boyfriend(of the loved one)/ his grandmother (owner of the house)
9 k a person
"Wellness check" is just another way to circumvent the 4th Amendment in wat too many videoed cases.
Oh I disagree. Many cases have shown the importance of wellness checks, and the limits on the usefulness of a wellness check in other investigations has been well established.
Many feel better deferring to cops to do what family should be doing or have done; where is Bill? Person may have fallen etc. Problem, hope very rare, no one has checked on Dad/Mom for days/weeks/months.
But.... there is always that situation where an elderly needs a wellness check. Kids live out of town, can’t get a hold of them. I have personally been on many of those. We can’t take away wellness checks for emergencies. Its a very important aspect of the job.
Amen.
I see your point, as I have loved ones too. But the fact is that nobody is under any legal obligation to accept our phone calls or even to talk to us if they don't want to. What the family member simply does not want to talk to you? Should you have the right to get the authorities involved for that?
shooting someone acting out that you already know is in a bad position is fucking weak as fuck
dont approach someone holding a shovel, speak at a distance. If they charge you, run, leave the situation, make them realize theyre being an idiot.
if you try hard enough, you can save a life, no situation is the same, but it always takes the right approach to start with
That's not how this works amigo. He's got a felony warrant. The officer ain't just letting him walk off.
@@ASPextra I meant as a broad statement
in that situation, sure. was your example in reference to a specific situation? maybe I missed something
@@ASPextra Im talking about like if my neighbors I have known for like 20 years acted out
So they basically have permission to come to your door for something you never called them for?
So now they’re going to have the right to kick our doors down,,, take our kids n etc. That’s all this is. A form of putting your nose where it don’t belong. It’s so much crime going on and yet they spend time on this.
I get the worry, but don't commit the slippery slope fallacy. There are significant checks in place.
@@ASPextra It's not a fallacy. Consider this, (and please correct me if I'm wrong), but it's my understanding that a person has no legal obligation to communicate with friends or family members, or to answer their calls or to attend the door when they knock etc. So what if somebody decides they want no further contact with certain people? Why should I have to get a visit from the cops simply for exercising my constitutional right to freedom of association by choosing not to take family members' and "Friends" calls ? And the same would apply to getting a visit from social services.
@6:52. Show me thousands of law abiding. Rights protecting officers not abusing their power and We the infringed will stop being negative. I don't have sympathy its their job don't like it quit you knew the game going into it. You act as if everyone wants to hurt police officers. 90% of all people involved in interactions don't like being illegally detained and or threatened. There are a uneven amount of easily bruised egos. And they hide behind their qualified immunity. Even when they disregard the rights that they swore an oath upon. How many times have we seen a video of a cop mocking someone when they flex their rights? Where did you study law at? And then continue to harass them into giving them what they demand. Millions of tax payers dollars go into paying fees for bad choices. The disproportionate amount of good cop videos vs bad cop videos is outrageous. 98% of the citizens they approach are unarmed but the cops with multiple weapons are afraid? One does not sacrifice freedom out of fear and those that would deserve neither.
Your first statement is facile. I can show you 4500 in my town alone, with like maybe 5 bad apples.
@@ASPextra im happy you live where you do. Our police were under federal investigation for almost 1o years for a cocaine smuggling ring 2 drug taskforce officers just got caught selling fentynal. Our police force detained an ATF agent and hes suing the city for excessive force. I see it from the perspective im given. So we should just agree to disagree
P.s. sorry for the late response it just appeared on my wall tonight.
You guys are making way too much sense! Stop that's not what we do now.