Great video Nathan! I feel like arguing about the art style is a distraction and it's like arguing about the color of the couch on a sinking titanic. We need life boats to be sent out. Now. Let us play and experience the game with all of the accelerated content created. Or this project will sink.
I hate the new art style I might as well keep playing world of Warcraft. This is not what was promised and my guess is the only reason they're doing this is to make the game easier to run so that it can be played on a broader range of computers.
The old graphics had a more dark fantasy vibe to the high fantasy, which I liked. This looks more cartoony and claymation-like - so far! I'll wait to see more though...
I really liked the old art style also but can deal with the new style as long as it doesn't get too cartooney. Just wish they had more of it to show to get a good feel for the direction. Got to say that I hate that human run animation. Looks too anime for my taste.
Regardless a more 'stylized' look is the way to go, it seems like the attempt at more realistic graphics was really holding the team back and the finished product would probably draw unfavorable comparison with more well-funded games.
I agree with you, but that's the thing. IDK if everyone has played EverQuest before, but I always have to explain to my friends that the game is so good that no one cares about the graphics. I feel like WoW is in a similar boat in 2023. Actually have had friends who never played WoW make fun of how old and dated it looks. In the past it felt like a lot of MMOs I got hyped for put everything into graphics that my graphics card could barely handle at the time, and nothing into content or gameplay.
Nathan, your faith in this game is inspiring. Unfortunately I no longer believe this game will launch. I’m glad you do and I hope you’re right and I’m wrong. Time will tell…
look, I understand, I'm still hanging in there, but it's by a finger instead of a whole hand right now until we get some major progress updates and a Show Don't Tell type philosophy
I'm really trying to stay positive about this game.... Pantheon Patient and all that... that said this really isn't the game I spent $250 on to Alpha test back in 2017. Graphics aren't an issue for me unless I'm removed from the immersion... I cant say for certain that I can stay immersed in a cartoon (I never played WoW for that very reason). I'll reserve my opinion till we see actual game play footage (hopefully at some point soon) instead of canned video images for share holders. I've moved on since getting really excited about this game. The way I see it, if I ever get my call to Alpha test I'll try and make time for it, but at this point I'm not where I was 6 years ago and Pantheon won't be a priority like it would have been if they rolled it out like we all thought they would. Thanks for the video Nathan and keeping me in the loop.
I think its honorable to keep Brads' dream alive and not giving up. I just hope they can come to a point of a release weather it alpha or beta before they have no relevance at all left. Lets face it we have seen many mmo come and go. Many of which fallen short or just ran out of money. I just hope Pantheon can come out of this as a sucess and not take 30 years to do it in.
Sigh they went cartoon. As an Everquest fan way back when I played in 1999 until 2002 I was keen to jump into this game but not with cartoon graphics. I just can't bring myself to play a game that looks more like WOW than anything else and I never once played WOW because of that same reason. They decided to aim it at the younger generation that the original Everquest generation. I am sure they have gone against Brad's original idea here, not sure he would be over the moon about this change. From a business perspective they made this choice for money reasons so it is pure business. Anyway game over for me at least 😞
Ya .. problem is 7 years ago I pre bought like 8 memberships for my brother's as friends for Christmas...they got our money already so it's like....what do they care. No Integrity
The trick to making this art style to come to life is lighting. If the art can pop with some reflection and lighting tricks, it makes all the difference.
My mind is that this needed to happen for the sake of progress, but I do think it looks like a mobile game (and that's not a compliment). Art assets take a long time, so streamlining and simplifying that just makes sense and I believe their artists are doing well with their situation. With the quantity of art that needs to be produced for an MMO, quality is going to dip unless they spend a lot more money (that they're not going to have) hiring an army of artists to produce things. Ultimately think the animations could have an iconic charm to them overtime (much like WoW), and it certainly has way more life and character than they've ever had before. I'll want to see what the day/night and weather cycle looks like since that was actually impressive during the pre-alpha, and it's hard to imagine this working as well at night from the little we've seen. Again though, I really hope this leads to actual progress because it really, really reminds me of those cheap mobile games (no offense to the artists of course, it's just the nature of the color palette, texture resolution and lower poly counts while needing to produce so much). How the game looks was never much of a concern for me though, so if this gets the ball rolling than I have zero problem with it and am glad they finally realized their limitations as a small team.
As others have said, the graphics aren't a huge concern to me in and of itself, but this type of change this late into the dev cycle, after all the other changes and resets, just doesn't feel indicative of a game that is going to be able to make it to release
As a lover of vanilla WoW and Wildstar, I am perfectly fine with these graphics. Good game play and a great world are all I need for fun and immersion. Especially the little details of interaction with some of the objects in the world (like furniture, buildings, critters, etc.).
Requested my pledge back. Don't expect anything. Looking forward to the multiple updated character models over the next several years. Pantheon is a disaster.
I'm personally not excited about the graphics change but agree that Pantheon needs some type of positive momentum forward. Content is still king. But I'll say what's on most people's minds about this game, hurry up VR because it feels like its been in development for a decade. Oh wait it has... Pre-Alpha just needs to end.
I REALLY don't like the new art style.. I feel like it completely changes the feel of the game from serious to goofy. Feels like a Disney movie. I"m hoping it will grow on me but right now I'm really bummed out.
If you ask me, I think this game will never see the light of day, it has taken a long time and I'm sure when it comes out it will feel like an old game compared to everything that is coming in the MMO world.
@@TheNathanNAPALM If I'm 100% honest, these people are taking so long to release that game, it's because they're using their taxpayers' money to finish it, it's too long and they still don't have a release date at all.
@@TheNathanNAPALM the fact they never shoot it to you straight is why I think its all a bunch of rubbish,game shouldve taken advantage of the hunger for a new none WOW mmo but that window has closed with how decent Dragonflight is
@@tirsom Let pray they have usable assets and resources they can pull together. Not lost work and have to start again. Like there's no reason the networking and story logic/asset shouldn't work now. Surely most of the work should be graphic rehashes, and seamless zone changes.
@@jasondeslatte7611 Originally they ripped the EQ code so they had a working game when first starting and merely changed the model-containers and graphics on top to show off a coming product. Remember even the sounds were the same as EQ1. Then they started working on unique Unity networking module code for lots of plays in one area. Since then story logic and zone filling. Lots of discussions and an image here and there of realistic art. Now we find out most of the assets were Unity defaults, hmm.
Warhammer Online used a very similar cartoony art style to this and they were able to use it in ways that were still dark and gritty. I'm excitieed to see where this goes. It honestly already looks better than the graphics that were in the Pre-Alpha test sessions imo.
Let's not pretend that this art change didn't destroy the aesthetic the entire community was hoping for. I understand the need for performance on a range of machines. I understand the need for speed of development. But this change is not a good look. This looks like Fortnite now. The gameplay may be good, but their intention on "building worlds" has missed the mark entirely here. Not that the old art style looked like real life, but it felt like it could be a real world somewhere, someplace. Now, this looks like an arcadey cartoon game. At 4:26 in the art reveal video, Ben Dean says "We expect Pantheon to reach more audiences. We believe the art style resonates with more gamers across more demographics bringing more people in to this growing community" Which largely says two things: 1 - This art change was not 100% a decision based on a performance, development / production speed mindset. 2 - The shift away from making a game for the niche audience has begun. Expect more blind-sided changes that push us further and further away from the vision that started this game, under the guise of the aforementioned. WoW appealed to "more audiences" which was largely a part of it's success, but is also a major reason that the genre has degraded in to what it is now. The absolute shameless defense of the direction of the game in this video is a bit gross.
Yeah most of the old models were straight from the Unity store that was why it felt generic, because it was, these are made in-house and apparently FAST
Not a fan of this change tbh. I understand why they did it and its because its tremendously cheaper to uphold. But thats not a good thing from them either it means they're desperate for funds again. This is a huge red flag
I like it. I dont think they will have problem making more dark brooding environments with this art style.. WoW is cartoony and there are plenty of these types of areas that are well done and moody. The music and ambient sound effects will be a big part of setting the mood as well. I think it'll all turn out to be a good thing.
Not a big fan of how oversaturated the trees and landscape look or the lack of detail on the fauna but I think I could adjust to liking this art-style.
They lost me on this graphic change. Looks like a Hello Kitty Big Island adventure. They have had more than enough time and money to complete this project. at this point its a PASS from me
The real test is going to be seeing the playable races. They have not even shown a couple of them yet or haven't in a couple years. The game will last because of gameplay and the community in the game, not the graphics, but I do also think that it does look a bit too much like WoW though. I have been streaming on Everquest's Oakwynd server and would love to show off this game and play it.
i love painted art styles. the 2 games i refer to are WoW and Kingdom Hearts. Both have held up well. the most important thing is performance, so we need to set realistic expectations and allow the hardware to dictate visual quality. MMOs are difficult to animate cause of all of the network effects that get exponentially out of control when you start to get a large group with many enemies. and all the armor, and races, and progression, it can't be like AAA game and spend most of its money on art.
The new style is a regression IMO but that wouldn't be an issue if it were the only worrying sign and chosen for stylistic reasons rather than convenience. Didn't they have a graphics overhaul like 2-3 years ago? Looks to me like they waste a lot of time and resources. If you asked me 5 years ago to choose between Pantheon and Ashes of Creation which was more likely to be vapor, I would have said AoC for sure. Now it seems to be the only one with actual, genuine progress to show for in regular intervals. Anyway, time will tell.
Needs to Launch soon , I was hyped like 2020 .. it's nearly 2024 people...way too long... Embers Adrift was done by less than 10 people, and took 6 years come on guys
Does anyone remember the original backers and pledgers of this game asking for a WoW clone with an EQ ruleset? No?? That's because there weren't any......
the rtx 5090 is purported to be 2x as fast as the 4090.... while i realize hardly anyone can afford these high end gpu's... in 4 years when this comes out, it will look exceptionally dated... i dont know how to process this information. i hope they aren't stuck in the unity debacle
@@TheNathanNAPALM I did. I myself am mpre of a fan of game play > art/graphics being 2nd or 3rd on prio list. Lookin forward to seeing this in your hands!
I like the new graphics, I think it will help with the fantasy look. I also think they alienate their supporters by not being upfront and honest. Get the first 10 to 20 live, get Alpha up, and let the tester test the limited content till you're ready for more. 7 years in a row of no dates is rubbing people raw and they don't seem to get it. It's not enough to just say we hear you.
"Rather short video" understatement of the year lmao! But yeah, I'm happy about this change. This new style has a far better shelf life, for sure. For a realistic vibe, if you aren't at the cutting edge, it will look like garbage as compared to everyone else. This is the right choice. Wish it had happened sooner, but that's how it is!
The graphics can be just about anything as long as the gameplay is great. Having said that, I'm not particularly fond of what I'm seeing here so the gameplay better be otherworldly. Honestly, it looks like they took all their art inspiration from Warcraft 3. Which was fine... 20 years ago. So we'll see I guess. And yes, I still hold out hope that we will indeed see. One day. **Edit** RAFT. I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but now it's very clear. The creature art looks really, really similar to Raft.
I like the look of the mobs well enough, and think I'll be okay with the world like that if they pull it off well. But I'm really not feeling the Disney Princess mobile game feel of the character models... I'm not going to make a final judgement based on how things currently stand though, gotta see how things shake out.
I do not mind the graphics. For an MMO it makes a lot of sense to do something that has wide appeal and will age better. It also makes sense to something less demanding spec wise. Where I start to get lost is how little we are being shown at a time. 2-3 months of silence for a 5 minute video. I am not ungrateful. I am respectful of the position these devs are in. But with that said, alpha was originally slated for end of 2022. Ambitious for sure. We all knew it would take longer than that. But here we are at the last quarter of 2023 and we are being told the Art is being redone. It’s not that I disagree with that decision but when are we going to see the silent plains? When are we going to see the inside of Thronefast City? When are we going to see a boss fight in a dungeon that is fully done? We haven’t heard anything at all around the other continent. I am appreciative of what the team has been able to do. I just wish they would be more honest and straight forward about their struggles and the delays they are causing. We SUPPORT this small team. But we have to know how their struggles are truly affecting their progress. I like many have put money in this game expecting more ROI by this point. We aren’t trying to send negative energy around this game. We just feel like we don’t know what is going on and that is causing anxiety and doubt around some of the most adoring and hopeful fans of this game.
I absolutely love the new art style. It's my favourite art-style and I enjoy games that make use of it this stylized look. It's the main reason I still dabble with WoW. It's why I like League. It's the art style I aspire to create when I do 3D modeling. That running animation, however. I really, really hate. I know that it'll probably be worked on. I really hope that isn't representative of what the final running animation will look like. That's game breaking for me. One thing I *hated* about EQII is that the faster you ran, it just sped up your running animation. It got to the point where your characters limbs just jerked around because they were moving *way* too fast. WoW actually changes your running animation, the faster you go. The characters hunker down, they take longer and wider strides to match the speed. So, I hope this jumpy, jerky running animation is not what we'll get in the end. But to reiterate. This art style change is whats going to save Pantheon.
EQ1 when released had so many patches and fixes. If VR can get the base game reasonable and the game play is spot on, then people will be happy to get later update to improve the looks. Just upping the resolution will improve what's already showcased, but it's worrying that what was shown was tearing and low frame rates.
I'm totally fine with this new art style, but I do much prefer what was shown before this by far. But again if this gets the game out faster I'm all for it. After all, graphics arent what's important it's the gameplay and design philosophy :D Hell, I play osrs still
I stopped following this game & I'm a VIP pledger. I haven't tested in over a year by my own choice. Only here because I follow you. So if it wasn't for you Napalm. I wouldn't know about this. Now with that out of the way. This does look really good & I do agree with a lot of what you said. Thanks for sharing & keeping me informed. As I more than likely will ever return to the "cough" official Pantheon forums.
lol, I understand, I will continue to cover Pantheon when they have big news, and hopefully that becomes more often than it has been, and hopefully soon I can stream and show it to everyone
I'll be honest . This is the first time I have been turned off to the game . I wasn't looking for a wow classic art style and it isn't something I feel I can be immersed in . For Brad . RiP I will give it a try but my hype has died with this . Just is what it is .
Loved the art before and do love what I see now. But...i hit 40 bro.. when am I going to play this? I have tested pre alpha a few times but I am kinda tired of waiting at this point....they should add alpha and let us play until where it is rdy ...lvl20 25 30 whatever the cap is atm. Let us play what we can zone by zone and then just keep adding zones into it when its rdy!
I'm a couple of months from 40 myself, I definitely understand, releasing early and then trying to flesh it out never works in the MMO space unfortunately
If you have pre alpha access, we'll soon have a 24/7 persistent playtest server - that's been revealed and no longer covered by NDA. Look forward to it!
Time will tell....this will be where the rubber meets the road and we will see if they actually have a vision anymore or are just fumbling to still figure that out 9 years later...having a vision is one thing...its another to have a vision that actually WORKS and can function as an actual game. At least I get to see more NN bodies soon....testing is right around the corner.
This looks like a step backwards for me. Looks to much like WOW. I have really been looking forward for this title, but starting to have doubts this is ever gonna make release.
Man I am so tired of this fisher-price aesthetic. It has taken over multiplayer gaming. Maybe Everquest 3 will be different, but I doubt it considering what Everquest Next was shaping up to be.
I’ll never get tired of the whimsical look and jams because ultimately to me they just make a game look like what it’s supposed to be a game fun ambivalent you can tell a very deep story with even sell shaded graphics that look like something out of a Disney cartoon. It’s not the graphics you have. It’s what you do with them.
Looks good. It will definitely age better than photo-realistic graphics. As long as the gameplay is good, who cares?! I still love the graphics of Classic WoW, haha.
It's growing on me, especially the animated animals and some environment The player characters are awful and zero inspiring to pick or play. The problem so far, character models, low polygon count for the game, lack of mood (spooky dark areas needing a torch or magic light, atmosphere, etc), and little to no GFX effects like bump-mapping.
I prefer the gritty style of the old pantheon but if they can pull this off with great gameplay and good story I'll get use to it as i like the newer style of wow graphics tbh but I'm just hoping this gives them the ability to finally get shit done!
I've said multiple times that I don't particularly care about the graphics except for Anime. Just can't stand it. The animations I think will actually make or break it for me. This feels a bit like the refactor all over again back in....2018 I think? It really doesn't feel like any progress has been made for quite a long time to be honest. Hopefully testing next month will help move the game forward at the pace they claim it will. Just glad that there are other MMO's on the horizon that I am also interested in like Monsters and Memories, Pax Dei and the coop game Enshrouded.
i think the art style is a great change. it will attract other mmo players that were not previously interested. it looks almost softer to me so i feel like more casual mmo players will look into it now.
Love the channel man, long time follower, Ill be honest, if I saw this game today for the first time I would never consider playing it. Those are 100% mobile graphics, absolutely terrible, that being said what you said about "for progress" it right, I just don't know how long Ill be able to stick with this.
If you look back on all the communications from the team they’re all using the same terminology. They’re always just now able to churn out huge new content thanks to x thing they just completed. The alpha is always right around the corner thanks to whatever the new item of the day is. It’s finally time to show not tell, and then we get a few models and some art. The people running this game do not have the experience of the devs that began this journey. Their leadership has likely realized that the one viable way to continue enriching themselves off of brads vision is to continue development indefinitely. The person over the project has been able to enrich themselves for half a decade with the same amount of mmo dev experience as anyone in the comment section. The day the officially go into alpha will be the last few months of life for this game.
devs said Vanguard's crafting system was too complicated and claimed Pantheon players did not want crafting as complicated and Vanguard's crafting system.
the art style is not great. it's 'good enough' if they can actually get the game out 2024 and then improve graphics further after launch. this is the first time i've been disappointed with pantheon development news.
Yeah I agree they should try to let streamers on, because I've been introduced to a lot games that I saw a streamer play that I wouldn't of even known about otherwise. Plus if they let both of us stream it I wouldn't complain lol.
Go with WoW graphics but all the elements of EQ and others alike, this is going to take more years before its ready. How long has this game been coming out? I think i started watching your videos 2 years ago when you say everyday is a step closer, should be every year is a step closer.
Stylized or not doesn't really bother me too much, but I really do wish it was a little darker and grittier. What they've shown so far feels a little too "disney" for me.
Very good decision. Does everyone want perpetually pre-alpha game with gritty realistic graphics, or a game that releases sometime with stylized graphics?
Is this one of those dozens of MMO's that were announced like 8 plus years ago. Promising to take things back to the good ol days or something like that. If so,I guess they want it to look like the good ol days as well.
Not a fan of the art, but if it speeds up progress its not the worst. however ive waited long enough for this, if alpha isnt in 2024 this conversion is pointless IMO this MMO already has a bad rep not saying it will flop but something else will come out (eq3?) and this will be left in the dust. they need to progress in an a timely manner or this project will be another VG
Feel like this look is going to resonate with a younger generation (which is really important). You know when Asmongold roasted Pantheon, him and his audience mainly complained about the way the models looked. I personally had no problem with them, but I know how much younger people care about the way a game looks because I still play EverQuest and it's one of the main things that turns them off from even trying it.
Daybreak Games EQ3 will be Developed for 3 years Starting in 2025 to 2028 or not at all. Pantheon I think 8 years will be it . Nope 9 maybe 10. Well we know 1 thing no matter how the Graphics look if this Doesn't speed up Pantheon Development EQ3 will be out before it.
I am not a big fan of the cartoony bright wow like art style. i would 100% prefere a darker version and less disney looking art style. But i guess we have to wait and see for more update...
OK, here is a thought experiment: How popular was Minecraft? answer: the staggeringly #1 game in history with blocks for graphics How immersive was Everquest? It was the best and with chunky low res graphics How awful was the cartoony look of EQ2, WoW and all the anime-graphic descendants since then? answer: infinitely awful If the game has content and lore and extensive behaviors in the world (like EQ1) then it will be immersive if the player *LETS* themself suspend their disbelief and be immersed. They have to be willing to mentally enter the world. A lot of post-EQ population is turned on only by super realistic graphics *OR* ironically cartoony anime graphics. I am 100% all in favor of this - the old EQ graphics never bothered me or my immersion. But I think this is going to cause a lot of problems for the game's acceptance in the market. And coupled with DPG's recent move to announce EQ3, I think Pantheon is in trouble....... I've supported Pantheon since the beginning, respectably-sized financially and word-of-mouth......so I am not throwing stones here. I am legitimately discouraged and worried.
I think they need to just move to alpha at this point. I don't think letting streamers go ham on it is a good idea. Personally every time I watch people stream the pre-alpha, I just think, why cant I play? I payed $300 for an alpha level pledge years ago. I'm happy they've been NDA heavy on streaming the game if they're not going to let us alpha teir, or really at this point, even beta tier backers play. I think their best plan at this point should be just get the initial 1/2 of the game(leveling, dungeons) for 1 or 2 races built out super strong and release the later level content and other races content as a rolling release and just let the fans play.
I wonder what the wider audience would think, but I think they would most agree, but I think VR so far has proven they are sticking to their guns on XYZ being done before they unleash it into Alpha phase, so since I feel that what you are asking is impossible, we need to show and see Pantheon and if they Devs don't have time : It makes sense to let us show it and let the community interact through us
![[Live] : ONE 168 วันนี้!! "โจนาธาน vs ซุปเปอร์เล็ก"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/0jIN65KgJsI/mqdefault.jpg)
Great video Nathan! I feel like arguing about the art style is a distraction and it's like arguing about the color of the couch on a sinking titanic. We need life boats to be sent out. Now. Let us play and experience the game with all of the accelerated content created. Or this project will sink.
It's very true, we need progress and we need it yesterday, thank you for the support Bounty! Hope to play some Embers with you in just a minute
Well said Bountycode! Will the band play on as water floods the decks? I hope there are more lifeboats than there were on the Titanic...
I agree.
I was hoping for a hardcore mmo rpg with dark and gritty aesthetics. EQ was punishing, the art style should reflect that.
We all were. I hate this
accurate
I think the environment is looking more simplistic than it used to be. Maybe a little too much like wow.
I hate the new art style I might as well keep playing world of Warcraft. This is not what was promised and my guess is the only reason they're doing this is to make the game easier to run so that it can be played on a broader range of computers.
@@aaronjohnson2547doesn't matter if people don't want to play it though.
The old graphics had a more dark fantasy vibe to the high fantasy, which I liked. This looks more cartoony and claymation-like - so far!
I'll wait to see more though...
fair enough
they looked clunky and not good
I really liked the old art style also but can deal with the new style as long as it doesn't get too cartooney. Just wish they had more of it to show to get a good feel for the direction.
Got to say that I hate that human run animation. Looks too anime for my taste.
Regardless a more 'stylized' look is the way to go, it seems like the attempt at more realistic graphics was really holding the team back and the finished product would probably draw unfavorable comparison with more well-funded games.
I agree with you, but that's the thing. IDK if everyone has played EverQuest before, but I always have to explain to my friends that the game is so good that no one cares about the graphics. I feel like WoW is in a similar boat in 2023. Actually have had friends who never played WoW make fun of how old and dated it looks. In the past it felt like a lot of MMOs I got hyped for put everything into graphics that my graphics card could barely handle at the time, and nothing into content or gameplay.
Nathan, your faith in this game is inspiring. Unfortunately I no longer believe this game will launch. I’m glad you do and I hope you’re right and I’m wrong. Time will tell…
look, I understand, I'm still hanging in there, but it's by a finger instead of a whole hand right now until we get some major progress updates and a Show Don't Tell type philosophy
I'm really trying to stay positive about this game.... Pantheon Patient and all that... that said this really isn't the game I spent $250 on to Alpha test back in 2017. Graphics aren't an issue for me unless I'm removed from the immersion... I cant say for certain that I can stay immersed in a cartoon (I never played WoW for that very reason). I'll reserve my opinion till we see actual game play footage (hopefully at some point soon) instead of canned video images for share holders.
I've moved on since getting really excited about this game. The way I see it, if I ever get my call to Alpha test I'll try and make time for it, but at this point I'm not where I was 6 years ago and Pantheon won't be a priority like it would have been if they rolled it out like we all thought they would. Thanks for the video Nathan and keeping me in the loop.
Yeah man, I understand
I think its honorable to keep Brads' dream alive and not giving up. I just hope they can come to a point of a release weather it alpha or beta before they have no relevance at all left. Lets face it we have seen many mmo come and go. Many of which fallen short or just ran out of money. I just hope Pantheon can come out of this as a sucess and not take 30 years to do it in.
I started buying his old games and hanging them in the Wall like Vanguard collectors edition
R.I.P. Brad.
I really like this new direction of the graphics and art. I truly am still looking forward to seeing Brad's dream realized once again.
Sigh they went cartoon. As an Everquest fan way back when I played in 1999 until 2002 I was keen to jump into this game but not with cartoon graphics. I just can't bring myself to play a game that looks more like WOW than anything else and I never once played WOW because of that same reason. They decided to aim it at the younger generation that the original Everquest generation. I am sure they have gone against Brad's original idea here, not sure he would be over the moon about this change. From a business perspective they made this choice for money reasons so it is pure business. Anyway game over for me at least 😞
Ya .. problem is 7 years ago I pre bought like 8 memberships for my brother's as friends for Christmas...they got our money already so it's like....what do they care. No Integrity
The trick to making this art style to come to life is lighting. If the art can pop with some reflection and lighting tricks, it makes all the difference.
My mind is that this needed to happen for the sake of progress, but I do think it looks like a mobile game (and that's not a compliment). Art assets take a long time, so streamlining and simplifying that just makes sense and I believe their artists are doing well with their situation. With the quantity of art that needs to be produced for an MMO, quality is going to dip unless they spend a lot more money (that they're not going to have) hiring an army of artists to produce things.
Ultimately think the animations could have an iconic charm to them overtime (much like WoW), and it certainly has way more life and character than they've ever had before. I'll want to see what the day/night and weather cycle looks like since that was actually impressive during the pre-alpha, and it's hard to imagine this working as well at night from the little we've seen.
Again though, I really hope this leads to actual progress because it really, really reminds me of those cheap mobile games (no offense to the artists of course, it's just the nature of the color palette, texture resolution and lower poly counts while needing to produce so much). How the game looks was never much of a concern for me though, so if this gets the ball rolling than I have zero problem with it and am glad they finally realized their limitations as a small team.
No you're telling yourself that because you want the game and are tired of waiting. This just killed the game.
As others have said, the graphics aren't a huge concern to me in and of itself, but this type of change this late into the dev cycle, after all the other changes and resets, just doesn't feel indicative of a game that is going to be able to make it to release
As a lover of vanilla WoW and Wildstar, I am perfectly fine with these graphics. Good game play and a great world are all I need for fun and immersion. Especially the little details of interaction with some of the objects in the world (like furniture, buildings, critters, etc.).
Requested my pledge back. Don't expect anything. Looking forward to the multiple updated character models over the next several years. Pantheon is a disaster.
Sorry to hear that my man, but I understand, hopefully they can win you back at launch or close to it
I don't think they are financial to hand yo money back. I hope it wasn't a 10K$ VIP
I'm personally not excited about the graphics change but agree that Pantheon needs some type of positive momentum forward. Content is still king. But I'll say what's on most people's minds about this game, hurry up VR because it feels like its been in development for a decade. Oh wait it has... Pre-Alpha just needs to end.
Nathan man you always crush it dude. Really appreciate the content you put out. Always doing a top notch job man I dig it!
I appreciate that! Glad you are enjoying it!
It's a little bit mobile looking, but if the game play stays true to what Brad envisioned it'll be ok.
Also Nathan, you stepped up your game recently. Love the new direction!
Thank you, trying to make it!
I REALLY don't like the new art style.. I feel like it completely changes the feel of the game from serious to goofy. Feels like a Disney movie. I"m hoping it will grow on me but right now I'm really bummed out.
A lot of people feel the same, you aren't alone, hopefully the lighting engine and playing will be believing
Yeah this is a huge disappointment for me as well! Graphics are very important, and this looks like a whole different game to me.
"7 years down and we're still in pre al"- Ben Dean interjects rapidly to correct, "EXCUSE ME that's pre pre pre pre pre-alpha!"
nathan is my #1 source for mmo news
Thank you!
If you ask me, I think this game will never see the light of day, it has taken a long time and I'm sure when it comes out it will feel like an old game compared to everything that is coming in the MMO world.
Yeah I understand your concern, but I don't have much hope for what is coming either from other devs
@@TheNathanNAPALM If I'm 100% honest, these people are taking so long to release that game, it's because they're using their taxpayers' money to finish it, it's too long and they still don't have a release date at all.
@@TheNathanNAPALM the fact they never shoot it to you straight is why I think its all a bunch of rubbish,game shouldve taken advantage of the hunger for a new none WOW mmo but that window has closed with how decent Dragonflight is
@@tirsom Let pray they have usable assets and resources they can pull together. Not lost work and have to start again. Like there's no reason the networking and story logic/asset shouldn't work now. Surely most of the work should be graphic rehashes, and seamless zone changes.
@@jasondeslatte7611 Originally they ripped the EQ code so they had a working game when first starting and merely changed the model-containers and graphics on top to show off a coming product. Remember even the sounds were the same as EQ1. Then they started working on unique Unity networking module code for lots of plays in one area. Since then story logic and zone filling. Lots of discussions and an image here and there of realistic art. Now we find out most of the assets were Unity defaults, hmm.
Warhammer Online used a very similar cartoony art style to this and they were able to use it in ways that were still dark and gritty. I'm excitieed to see where this goes. It honestly already looks better than the graphics that were in the Pre-Alpha test sessions imo.
Let's not pretend that this art change didn't destroy the aesthetic the entire community was hoping for. I understand the need for performance on a range of machines. I understand the need for speed of development. But this change is not a good look. This looks like Fortnite now. The gameplay may be good, but their intention on "building worlds" has missed the mark entirely here. Not that the old art style looked like real life, but it felt like it could be a real world somewhere, someplace. Now, this looks like an arcadey cartoon game.
At 4:26 in the art reveal video, Ben Dean says "We expect Pantheon to reach more audiences. We believe the art style resonates with more gamers across more demographics bringing more people in to this growing community" Which largely says two things:
1 - This art change was not 100% a decision based on a performance, development / production speed mindset.
2 - The shift away from making a game for the niche audience has begun. Expect more blind-sided changes that push us further and further away from the vision that started this game, under the guise of the aforementioned.
WoW appealed to "more audiences" which was largely a part of it's success, but is also a major reason that the genre has degraded in to what it is now.
The absolute shameless defense of the direction of the game in this video is a bit gross.
I think the old graphics had no soul and were a bit generic. The new art style has soul to it. Definitely the right move.
Yeah most of the old models were straight from the Unity store that was why it felt generic, because it was, these are made in-house and apparently FAST
Not a fan of this change tbh. I understand why they did it and its because its tremendously cheaper to uphold. But thats not a good thing from them either it means they're desperate for funds again. This is a huge red flag
I like it. I dont think they will have problem making more dark brooding environments with this art style.. WoW is cartoony and there are plenty of these types of areas that are well done and moody. The music and ambient sound effects will be a big part of setting the mood as well. I think it'll all turn out to be a good thing.
I won't care about the art style as long as it runs smoothly and doesn't have a truck load of bugs and crashes.
Not a big fan of how oversaturated the trees and landscape look or the lack of detail on the fauna but I think I could adjust to liking this art-style.
Yeah agreed, I think seeing it on our own screens will make a big difference too
I'm glad they went more stylized.
Adds personality and ages better.
You can not get that access soon enough for me and many of us. As I know if it is awful or disappoints you will always speak your mind :)
Yeah I can play nice until I'm mad, but I always say what I think
They lost me on this graphic change. Looks like a Hello Kitty Big Island adventure. They have had more than enough time and money to complete this project. at this point its a PASS from me
The real test is going to be seeing the playable races. They have not even shown a couple of them yet or haven't in a couple years. The game will last because of gameplay and the community in the game, not the graphics, but I do also think that it does look a bit too much like WoW though.
I have been streaming on Everquest's Oakwynd server and would love to show off this game and play it.
These graphics remind me of the short lived EQ Next, I liked it then and will like it in Pantheon if it ever comes out.
It is definitely comparable
i love painted art styles. the 2 games i refer to are WoW and Kingdom Hearts. Both have held up well.
the most important thing is performance, so we need to set realistic expectations and allow the hardware to dictate visual quality.
MMOs are difficult to animate cause of all of the network effects that get exponentially out of control when you start to get a large group with many enemies.
and all the armor, and races, and progression, it can't be like AAA game and spend most of its money on art.
The new style is a regression IMO but that wouldn't be an issue if it were the only worrying sign and chosen for stylistic reasons rather than convenience. Didn't they have a graphics overhaul like 2-3 years ago? Looks to me like they waste a lot of time and resources.
If you asked me 5 years ago to choose between Pantheon and Ashes of Creation which was more likely to be vapor, I would have said AoC for sure. Now it seems to be the only one with actual, genuine progress to show for in regular intervals.
Anyway, time will tell.
The graphic overhaul I think you are mentioning is when they introduced HDRP which will still give the same benefits with this new artstyle
Needs to Launch soon , I was hyped like 2020 .. it's nearly 2024 people...way too long... Embers Adrift was done by less than 10 people, and took 6 years come on guys
Yeah I think the phenomenal job Stormhaven did and continues to do with their MMO is extremely impressive and my favorite MMO of 2023 hands down
Does anyone remember the original backers and pledgers of this game asking for a WoW clone with an EQ ruleset? No?? That's because there weren't any......
the rtx 5090 is purported to be 2x as fast as the 4090.... while i realize hardly anyone can afford these high end gpu's... in 4 years when this comes out, it will look exceptionally dated... i dont know how to process this information.
i hope they aren't stuck in the unity debacle
I like it, It has the eqnext look which I really liked. I think it will help them get the game done a lot faster also.
My Godly gamer brother returns with more Pantheon Hype!
Hope you enjoyed!
@@TheNathanNAPALM I did. I myself am mpre of a fan of game play > art/graphics being 2nd or 3rd on prio list. Lookin forward to seeing this in your hands!
Well said mate, I absolutely agree. I dont quite understand the love for the old art style... unity assets... but hey
I like the new graphics, I think it will help with the fantasy look. I also think they alienate their supporters by not being upfront and honest. Get the first 10 to 20 live, get Alpha up, and let the tester test the limited content till you're ready for more. 7 years in a row of no dates is rubbing people raw and they don't seem to get it. It's not enough to just say we hear you.
4:56 100% ... Majority of people who love MMOs care more about the playstyle/immersion and Pantheon has that down
This change is very smart for so many reasons.
it really was the only path forward for Pantheon
"Rather short video" understatement of the year lmao! But yeah, I'm happy about this change. This new style has a far better shelf life, for sure. For a realistic vibe, if you aren't at the cutting edge, it will look like garbage as compared to everyone else. This is the right choice. Wish it had happened sooner, but that's how it is!
ROFLMFAO burger and a few cokes. Timing was perfection. That was funny
/bow I'm here all night
The graphics can be just about anything as long as the gameplay is great. Having said that, I'm not particularly fond of what I'm seeing here so the gameplay better be otherworldly. Honestly, it looks like they took all their art inspiration from Warcraft 3. Which was fine... 20 years ago. So we'll see I guess. And yes, I still hold out hope that we will indeed see. One day.
**Edit** RAFT. I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but now it's very clear. The creature art looks really, really similar to Raft.
I can see that comparison
I like the look of the mobs well enough, and think I'll be okay with the world like that if they pull it off well. But I'm really not feeling the Disney Princess mobile game feel of the character models... I'm not going to make a final judgement based on how things currently stand though, gotta see how things shake out.
Yeah I think the character models still need work
It's too bright and vibrant, but I'm hoping that's just to highlight the style. We need to see some night or dungeon shots.
Agreed
I do not mind the graphics. For an MMO it makes a lot of sense to do something that has wide appeal and will age better. It also makes sense to something less demanding spec wise.
Where I start to get lost is how little we are being shown at a time. 2-3 months of silence for a 5 minute video.
I am not ungrateful. I am respectful of the position these devs are in. But with that said, alpha was originally slated for end of 2022. Ambitious for sure. We all knew it would take longer than that. But here we are at the last quarter of 2023 and we are being told the Art is being redone. It’s not that I disagree with that decision but when are we going to see the silent plains? When are we going to see the inside of Thronefast City? When are we going to see a boss fight in a dungeon that is fully done? We haven’t heard anything at all around the other continent.
I am appreciative of what the team has been able to do. I just wish they would be more honest and straight forward about their struggles and the delays they are causing. We SUPPORT this small team. But we have to know how their struggles are truly affecting their progress. I like many have put money in this game expecting more ROI by this point. We aren’t trying to send negative energy around this game. We just feel like we don’t know what is going on and that is causing anxiety and doubt around some of the most adoring and hopeful fans of this game.
I absolutely love the new art style.
It's my favourite art-style and I enjoy games that make use of it this stylized look.
It's the main reason I still dabble with WoW.
It's why I like League.
It's the art style I aspire to create when I do 3D modeling.
That running animation, however.
I really, really hate.
I know that it'll probably be worked on. I really hope that isn't representative of what the final running animation will look like. That's game breaking for me.
One thing I *hated* about EQII is that the faster you ran, it just sped up your running animation. It got to the point where your characters limbs just jerked around because they were moving *way* too fast.
WoW actually changes your running animation, the faster you go. The characters hunker down, they take longer and wider strides to match the speed.
So, I hope this jumpy, jerky running animation is not what we'll get in the end.
But to reiterate. This art style change is whats going to save Pantheon.
Yeah with this graphic style, animation holds a lot more weight and I agree
EQ1 when released had so many patches and fixes. If VR can get the base game reasonable and the game play is spot on, then people will be happy to get later update to improve the looks. Just upping the resolution will improve what's already showcased, but it's worrying that what was shown was tearing and low frame rates.
I'm totally fine with this new art style, but I do much prefer what was shown before this by far. But again if this gets the game out faster I'm all for it. After all, graphics arent what's important it's the gameplay and design philosophy :D Hell, I play osrs still
Yeah I feel you, nothing like a classic MMO
I like most of what we’ve seen. I wanna see that goblin in game tho cause it looks awesome
Yeah goblin art looks nice and at least with this style we know that's exactly what it's going to look like in the game
I stopped following this game & I'm a VIP pledger. I haven't tested in over a year by my own choice. Only here because I follow you. So if it wasn't for you Napalm. I wouldn't know about this. Now with that out of the way. This does look really good & I do agree with a lot of what you said. Thanks for sharing & keeping me informed. As I more than likely will ever return to the "cough" official Pantheon forums.
lol, I understand, I will continue to cover Pantheon when they have big news, and hopefully that becomes more often than it has been, and hopefully soon I can stream and show it to everyone
Looks like EQ3 video/images they released when Smedly was still there.
He didn't have any burgers or coke, but doing a 100 push up's each morning has really paid off😉
I'll be honest . This is the first time I have been turned off to the game . I wasn't looking for a wow classic art style and it isn't something I feel I can be immersed in .
For Brad . RiP I will give it a try but my hype has died with this .
Just is what it is .
I 100% agree. Steaming pile of garbage.
Loved the art before and do love what I see now. But...i hit 40 bro.. when am I going to play this? I have tested pre alpha a few times but I am kinda tired of waiting at this point....they should add alpha and let us play until where it is rdy ...lvl20 25 30 whatever the cap is atm. Let us play what we can zone by zone and then just keep adding zones into it when its rdy!
I'm a couple of months from 40 myself, I definitely understand, releasing early and then trying to flesh it out never works in the MMO space unfortunately
If you have pre alpha access, we'll soon have a 24/7 persistent playtest server - that's been revealed and no longer covered by NDA. Look forward to it!
@@TheNathanNAPALM I had a feeling your guys all got sick of Pantheon and you all wandered off to other games.
I like the art and it's growing the more I look at it, but that video we got was pretty meh.
*After 11 years in development, they're just now changing the art style?*
*What a disaster.*
Well-said, my man.
This graphic style looks great and will last forever, like it much better should make animations and everything better too.
Time will tell....this will be where the rubber meets the road and we will see if they actually have a vision anymore or are just fumbling to still figure that out 9 years later...having a vision is one thing...its another to have a vision that actually WORKS and can function as an actual game. At least I get to see more NN bodies soon....testing is right around the corner.
This looks like a step backwards for me. Looks to much like WOW. I have really been looking forward for this title, but starting to have doubts this is ever gonna make release.
Finally some Pantheon content! It seems that the game has vanished over the last few months.
Yeah they went silent
I heard about pantheon almost 5 years to the day. Fingers crossed in 5 more can finally play. 😂
It almost feels like they are trying to copy Monsters and Memories a bit with these graphics.
Man I am so tired of this fisher-price aesthetic. It has taken over multiplayer gaming. Maybe Everquest 3 will be different, but I doubt it considering what Everquest Next was shaping up to be.
Likely EQ3 will also share a similar artstyle
I’ll never get tired of the whimsical look and jams because ultimately to me they just make a game look like what it’s supposed to be a game fun ambivalent you can tell a very deep story with even sell shaded graphics that look like something out of a Disney cartoon. It’s not the graphics you have. It’s what you do with them.
Looks good. It will definitely age better than photo-realistic graphics. As long as the gameplay is good, who cares?! I still love the graphics of Classic WoW, haha.
I love the new look, looking forward to seeing more.
Yeah it is nice to know that we are now finally seeing what Pantheon really is going to be like
It's growing on me, especially the animated animals and some environment The player characters are awful and zero inspiring to pick or play. The problem so far, character models, low polygon count for the game, lack of mood (spooky dark areas needing a torch or magic light, atmosphere, etc), and little to no GFX effects like bump-mapping.
I prefer the gritty style of the old pantheon but if they can pull this off with great gameplay and good story I'll get use to it as i like the newer style of wow graphics tbh but I'm just hoping this gives them the ability to finally get shit done!
Exactly! Getting it done is what matters : And the vision of the game loop and gameplay
I've said multiple times that I don't particularly care about the graphics except for Anime. Just can't stand it. The animations I think will actually make or break it for me.
This feels a bit like the refactor all over again back in....2018 I think? It really doesn't feel like any progress has been made for quite a long time to be honest. Hopefully testing next month will help move the game forward at the pace they claim it will.
Just glad that there are other MMO's on the horizon that I am also interested in like Monsters and Memories, Pax Dei and the coop game Enshrouded.
If they don't start SHOWING it and leveraging content creators immediately it's going to be hard for people to understand the progress
i like the art style
i think the art style is a great change. it will attract other mmo players that were not previously interested. it looks almost softer to me so i feel like more casual mmo players will look into it now.
They plan on a day night cycle. I want to see night time
4:45 eventually
Did someone say Pantheon?!?!
(*continues the long search for an alpha invite)
I think it's being delivered by a snail pulling a full-sized, overloaded carriage
At this point I think it's Vaporware!
Love the channel man, long time follower,
Ill be honest, if I saw this game today for the first time I would never consider playing it.
Those are 100% mobile graphics, absolutely terrible, that being said what you said about "for progress" it right, I just don't know how long Ill be able to stick with this.
Yeah it's been rough
The wolf running in circles 😆
He's about to lay down for a little wolf nap
Makes sense lol @@TheNathanNAPALM
If you look back on all the communications from the team they’re all using the same terminology. They’re always just now able to churn out huge new content thanks to x thing they just completed. The alpha is always right around the corner thanks to whatever the new item of the day is. It’s finally time to show not tell, and then we get a few models and some art. The people running this game do not have the experience of the devs that began this journey. Their leadership has likely realized that the one viable way to continue enriching themselves off of brads vision is to continue development indefinitely. The person over the project has been able to enrich themselves for half a decade with the same amount of mmo dev experience as anyone in the comment section. The day the officially go into alpha will be the last few months of life for this game.
I think they have full intention of a released product, the funding is drying up, they need a product to stay afloat
devs said Vanguard's crafting system was too complicated and claimed Pantheon players did not want crafting as complicated and Vanguard's crafting system.
the art style is not great. it's 'good enough' if they can actually get the game out 2024 and then improve graphics further after launch. this is the first time i've been disappointed with pantheon development news.
This looks so cartooney like a wow clone 😔
Yeah I agree they should try to let streamers on, because I've been introduced to a lot games that I saw a streamer play that I wouldn't of even known about otherwise.
Plus if they let both of us stream it I wouldn't complain lol.
Go with WoW graphics but all the elements of EQ and others alike, this is going to take more years before its ready. How long has this game been coming out? I think i started watching your videos 2 years ago when you say everyday is a step closer, should be every year is a step closer.
yeah it's been 7 long years
If they were truly near completing the last version, then it should only take a few months to rehash all the graphics and bring it all together
Stylized or not doesn't really bother me too much, but I really do wish it was a little darker and grittier. What they've shown so far feels a little too "disney" for me.
Hoping the lighting engine fixes that look
I guess I'm one of few people who don't care about graphics, I'm visually impaired so not like it matters
Not really what I pledged to play but, it is what it is? I think EQ2 looks better but just another persons opinion.
i hadn't heard anything for a while. i actually thought it was dead.
Very good decision. Does everyone want perpetually pre-alpha game with gritty realistic graphics, or a game that releases sometime with stylized graphics?
I'll take a released product that still meets the vision
Really like this progress, gl devs!
Is this one of those dozens of MMO's that were announced like 8 plus years ago. Promising to take things back to the good ol days or something like that. If so,I guess they want it to look like the good ol days as well.
Not a fan of the art, but if it speeds up progress its not the worst. however ive waited long enough for this, if alpha isnt in 2024 this conversion is pointless IMO this MMO already has a bad rep not saying it will flop but something else will come out (eq3?) and this will be left in the dust. they need to progress in an a timely manner or this project will be another VG
Omg wow. This looks so much better. I love the stylized art.
Feel like this look is going to resonate with a younger generation (which is really important). You know when Asmongold roasted Pantheon, him and his audience mainly complained about the way the models looked. I personally had no problem with them, but I know how much younger people care about the way a game looks because I still play EverQuest and it's one of the main things that turns them off from even trying it.
Daybreak Games EQ3 will be Developed for 3 years Starting in 2025 to 2028 or not at all. Pantheon I think 8 years will be it . Nope 9 maybe 10. Well we know 1 thing no matter how the Graphics look if this Doesn't speed up Pantheon Development EQ3 will be out before it.
Talking about EQ3 Here: th-cam.com/video/6tDBvDCMK90/w-d-xo.html
"1 day closer" Brother it's been over 8 years... we are about 3 years away if not longer also.
it doesn't matter if it's 10 years away, we are still a day closer
that was always the tongue in cheek appeal of saying "1 day closer" for all these years
I am not a big fan of the cartoony bright wow like art style. i would 100% prefere a darker version and less disney looking art style. But i guess we have to wait and see for more update...
OK, here is a thought experiment:
How popular was Minecraft? answer: the staggeringly #1 game in history with blocks for graphics
How immersive was Everquest? It was the best and with chunky low res graphics
How awful was the cartoony look of EQ2, WoW and all the anime-graphic descendants since then? answer: infinitely awful
If the game has content and lore and extensive behaviors in the world (like EQ1) then it will be immersive if the player *LETS* themself suspend their disbelief and be immersed. They have to be willing to mentally enter the world. A lot of post-EQ population is turned on only by super realistic graphics *OR* ironically cartoony anime graphics.
I am 100% all in favor of this - the old EQ graphics never bothered me or my immersion. But I think this is going to cause a lot of problems for the game's acceptance in the market. And coupled with DPG's recent move to announce EQ3, I think Pantheon is in trouble.......
I've supported Pantheon since the beginning, respectably-sized financially and word-of-mouth......so I am not throwing stones here. I am legitimately discouraged and worried.
I think they need to just move to alpha at this point. I don't think letting streamers go ham on it is a good idea. Personally every time I watch people stream the pre-alpha, I just think, why cant I play? I payed $300 for an alpha level pledge years ago. I'm happy they've been NDA heavy on streaming the game if they're not going to let us alpha teir, or really at this point, even beta tier backers play. I think their best plan at this point should be just get the initial 1/2 of the game(leveling, dungeons) for 1 or 2 races built out super strong and release the later level content and other races content as a rolling release and just let the fans play.
I wonder what the wider audience would think, but I think they would most agree, but I think VR so far has proven they are sticking to their guns on XYZ being done before they unleash it into Alpha phase, so since I feel that what you are asking is impossible, we need to show and see Pantheon and if they Devs don't have time : It makes sense to let us show it and let the community interact through us