That's because BattleTech was kind of based on a neo feudalism society. And yes sometimes one of the Lord isn't that much better than the other one sometimes it's better to deal with the devil you know.
Feudalism works, especially in a time of decentralized authority, and military defense taking priority over other societal priorities. Feudalism won't bring a lot of societal breakthroughs and advancements, but it will lead to stability and defined borders & responsibilities.
What I have come to understand (and deduce) is that a number of the author's of the novels is that, over time, all the Houses became more defined and deeper then their initial surface glances in the early days. (I'm old, I started buying BT/MW books and game material in the 80's when it came out). There is still a lot of souls out there that see things in black and white, but when you delve deeper you realize that every house and it's leadership have dirt in the closet, blood on their hands, and have proven over and over again that they'll pretty much stoop to any level to protect theirs and if possible, grab a piece of yours.
It's worth noting that the older BT novels are written from the POV of the protagonists. There is a certain subjective position that is alright, because that's how people are. The Cappies and Dracs got to play the heavy a lot, but how else would you expect a Davion or Steiner-related protagonist to see things? The Clans brought another antagonist faction into the mix, but the Clans weren't really villainous, they were just different, believed in their different-ness, and ready to stomp the entire Inner Sphere to prove it! Then there all the merc units that don't care about politics or ideology, unless it's necessary to mission completion so they can get their payday. When I was in university and read about the goings-on inside the Byzantine Empire and Medieval/Renaissance Italy, the situation sounded rather familiar, much like the Inner Sphere. 😏
@@observationsfromthebunker9639 I still make time to re-read those novels. I've got most of them up until about book 4 of the Dark Ages era when life got in the way and I became disillusioned. My YT channel is loaded with videos on the stuff. This past year I've gotten more interested in BT to the point I've been buying and reading what I can. Currently splitting my attention between Hunting Season and Question of Survival. Interesting how much has changed and yet, so much remains the same.
That was nice of you to extend some understanding to the older lore. As a Mechwarrior of a certain age, I came of age in an era where WW II veterans were hale and still knowing of the perils of going All The Way. The Cold War had made a mockery of the desired world peace, but at the same time nobody wanted to bring out the nukes and destroy half of humanity to totally destroy Capitalism/Communism. Most of the time. As Queen said, we're just waiting for the hammer to fall. A lot of the younger fans in military fiction fields don't understand going 100% on the opposition if it leads to total victory. It's cool, that ignorance is the result of the Cold War ending without WW III going down. Battletech is still realistic in understanding about going all out to win....and then having to pick up the pieces when victory proved elusive and there was only exhaustion and loss of life and the benefits of advanced spacefaring civilization in many places.
So, you have to figure that the Taurian Concordat knew, 'knew', that they have two larger, hungry houses looking for territory expansion and, since the Concordat sits between Liao and Davion and the deeper Periphery. Knowing this, and knowing that they weren't about to join an inner house willingly, nor pack up and bebop off to some other local. So, they developed a mentality that said, 'Come get some; we'll serve it hot, hard, and relentlessly'. Besides, it's easier to defend one's turf than to take another's, usually, anyway. Another thing that the Concordat has going for itself is that the big houses are always on guard against their neighbors or plotting against said neighbors. If the Taurians' can put up enough of a fight to make any serious invasion expensive, the likelihood that another great house will exploit the attackers increases. You know, there's a lot of folks who like to look at this house and that house and say, "oh, they're like this country or that on Earth'. Liao is communist china/north Korea, etc. If we're looking at things like this, then I'd have to say that the Concordat is a lot like the stereotypical hillbillies, highland clans of Scotland, with a dash of freedom fighter and Texas bootstomper tossed in. A gun in every room, tanks or mechs in every other barn, and a huge portion of the population that get a serious trill out of f'ing up anyone stupid enough to roll into the area and start making demands and claiming stuff.
Keeping the history is important. That being said we owe it to everyone to do and be better on all fronts going forward. Also the setting is wacky AF, like crazy mad. In that kind of setting sometimes you need mustache twirling evil villainy, tropes can be fun. I like seeing a new players perspective on this all. Keep it coming.
I will say this I love you are beginning this series in this way. The thing I love most about Battletech is that nobody is a good guy. Nobody is a bad guy. It is the epitome of "Nations have no permanent friends or enemies only permanent interests".
Hi Bobby and thank you very much for the response and kind words! And your right, that's what I think the BT universe does so well! It is kind of able to create a level of grey morality when its really hard to tell if anyone is right or wrong from one view point or another. Glad you enjoyed the video =)
Good thing in Battletech lore is, I came in reading the books in whatever order I could buy them so the first time I read about 33 books, I didn't understand a thing. All I knew was, that it blew me away. I love the books because each power is represented and we get their motivations behind their actions. I love Battletech. Glad you like it too. Thx for these vids.
The chaos March wasn't a puppet state. It was the front lines of the FedCom Civil War. Then the word of Blake went nuke happy. Also me, who played mechcommander 2: I WAS ON CARVER 5 MAN!
I actually like Capellans as bad guys, partly because I'm getting tired of the mindless unkillability of cheese in other settings. Looking at you Tyranids. I often see this problem crop up as a fiction writer. It is completely fine to have an enemy to designate as simply bad, and acceptable to fight, for simplicity of stories sake. Orcs and Nids are a wonderful example, and good to have available for easy adventure modules and no holds barred fights. But I had to explain to my nephews that they can't have a Tyranid hero that thinks eating the whole galaxy is the wrong way to go about things. Tyranids aren't written in a way that allows that kind of story telling. Now, I am not going to go the Extra Credits route of equating orc warbands to real world ethnicities, I don't like the taste of foot that much. Simple bad guys do have their place in story telling. But the more I learn about BattleTech, the more I realise the draw of the setting is that even the designated bad guys have a three dimensional ideology that they actually believe has merit. Liaos ideology is completely flawed, but the best of them will realise they are the 'spheres punching bag, and believe its living with this or spending their lives fighting off a foreign aggressor. Which actually overlaps a little with the Taurian attitude of 'get off my lawn.' That the punching bag and the fan favourite can actually completely agree on something that fundamental is why I'm liking this setting more and more.
It's refreshing to find someone who is willing to evaluate and potentially accept reasonable critiques as valid instead of doubling down. I'll be following your future videos with interest. 👍
They already did a good job of retconning the older eras of the Capellan Confederation by putting the blame on the Chancellors and their deteriorated mental stability. Things got better under Sun Tzu, but his heir seems like he might have some of the same metal instability issues. (Which is very much in line with real world history when it comes to the hereditary coin flip when it comes to heirs)
Hey Jade! Thank you for the confirmation lore-wise with regards to retcons. I just know that is a touchy subject that needs to be treated with care sometimes. :) Also yes, I do like the narrative in the BT universe that at the flip of a coin or the toss of a hat, the entire line of a royal house could end at the hands of one bad heir. It adds a lot to the world(s) of BattleTech!
This Sian flight control, aahhh were you aware that your Leapord appears to be on fire. Make sure all your cargo is safely stowed and emergency services will meet you upon landing.
Copy flight control, please ignore the flames and smoke those are just some...minor technical difficulties we are sorting out. Emergency services are not necessary but please advice any essential personal to vacate the landing area as soon as possible "just" in case...a rough landing occurs...
I think it's a little bit of both memeing and the way they were written in early BT lore to be real. :) Also oooooh boy oh boy! JUST you wait till I get to the Draconis Combine! XD
Point taken. The Capellans are crafty, corrupt, and have dodged the verdict of history to a frustrating level. But they're not the militantly martial stratified society that is the Draconis Combine.
Ok,I decided to subscribe to your channel on the force of these two videos. I even enjoyed your point about the Cappellans. Even though I dislike their leadership in game(the Cappellans in the computer game are a bunch of tools). Anyway enjoy your stuff.
On your last point, you said that you can't use whataboutism to justify the Capellan Confederation's actions/injustices/wrongdoings. On this we are agreed. However if you modify your argument to be that the CC should not be seen as *the* moustache-twirling bad guy of the Battletech universe, I think this argument becomes a lot more valid. Every great house has had times of great heroism and has committed terrible atrocities. Everyone has blood on their hands, and at best you can argue about whose particular shade of gray looks nicer.
Another nicely done episode, and as I forgot to say it last time, welcome to the 'Sphere, Mechwarrior! I, personally, am a pretty big Fed Suns fanboy. But I won't claim they are all perfect, noble do-right dudes. I think they may have the best intentions of the great houses... but results haven't always gone that way... At least there is another player in universe with you here, and hey, someone needs to drive the green 'mechs, right? Keep up the good work!
One of the fundamental background elements of Battletech is that the setting is stupidly large. You're inevitably going to end up with different cultures and attitudes towards the people in power going from planet to planet, let alone regions owned by entirely separate houses. This will also vary based on time. Some people lead better than others; conditions are never the same; the status quo is forever shifting. Security from violence, hunger, and the elements always take precedent. If the people in power locally are able to provide this security to an adequate level, and the people benefiting know what living without that security is like, they aren't going to complain much, even if they are sacrificing other stuff in the process. When this security is not adequate, shit hits the fan. Evil is an incredibly loaded term, it's not very helpful when you're trying to look at stuff objectively. How good or bad something is, is entirely relative, there are no absolutes. Well, aside from Highlander pilots. Mechwarriors who pilot Highlander's are gods among mortals who can do no wrong.
Thank you very much for the response Weird! That honestly is a far better way at looking at the world building and universe of BattleTech. And I believe you are correct in you assessment. Moving forward, I think I'll leave the judgement and labeling between good and evil behind. The Inner Sphere seems to be like a great sea of moral levels and depths that can and often change depending on who is leading or in control. Each region and planet, depending on where it is, could have entire view points I overlook just cause the map says so. That, and looking at it morally by picking one small point in time or with a big board stroke is not the best way to explore that aspect entirely. Thank you for that, I think you may have helped me my next video good sir! :)
@@frozenfrontwargaming9114 While there's nothing at all wrong with your talking points, I feel like you could afford to lean a bit more into the exploratory side of the banter instead of fixating on what is already established. Take for example the following prompts: - How do you think things went behind the scenes of established lore, what are the resulting consequences? - Why you think certain characters acted the way they did, how do you think they got to be that way? - Why were characters and events written in the way that they were, what do you think needed to be different for events to occur in a particular fashion? Etc. You're honestly at a bit of a disadvantage in this regard since you're monologuing without someone to bounce ideas off of. You also don't need to apologise for pissing people off! While I understand that some of the apologising is performative, you're overdoing it while simultaneously being unnecessarily defensive. Besides, anyone who is genuinely pissed off about how someone else interprets the nuances of a sci-fi setting is an idiot. The whole point of banter is that people are going to disagree. The opinions and understanding of the people you're talking to, as well as yourself, are going to change; relax! I've been into Battletech for, I think, roughly the same amount of time as you have (you sound like you're around the same age as me too). There is a lot of blank space and uncertainty within the setting, a lot of which will never be resolved. Some of that is simply because there's not enough time and money in the world to do so. However, a lot of it was done intentionally so that people could fill in the gaps with their own content. The gaps are where the truly entertaining stories lie. The thing I have come to realise is that literally the entire franchise, whether that be the setting, novels, rule and sourcebooks', tabletop game itself, or everything else in between; it's all been optimised for generating stories. You can and will find anything and everything somewhere in the inner sphere and that's a big part of its charm; the endless possibilities that the setting provides a framework for. In this way, Battletech is a franchise full of humanity. There's room for a little bit of everything, and a million different ways to think about it. Personally I've been gradually writing down ideas for my dream Battletech videogame. It's a lot of fun creating things that fit into the tapestry.
A lot of the Chaos March wasn't originally Capellan worlds they were Terran Hegemony, one of the reasons they didn't mind being ruled by the Fedcom till Catharine left them to rot when she ceded the Lyran half of the common wealth. One of the reasons they were all to eager to be part of the Word of Blake Protectorate during the Jihad and later the Republic of the Sphere.
Hi Joshua and thank you very much for explaining that! I have not really delved into the Jihad era (on a very long list of lore aspects I need to look into) but yes, I should have pointed that out regarding the Chaos March and its relation to the Terran Hegemony. Just because they are been traded back and forth between the successor states periodically after its fall did not make them loyal to the Confederation. A few might have been throughout, and the views of the others might have changed overtime, but not all of them that is to be sure. Always good to have someone more understanding in lore/universe factcheck. :)
@@frozenfrontwargaming9114 Jihad is a fun one and always thought the idea of Benjamin Emory started out as a fan character and became one of the era's most infamous Villains as Precentor Berith was really cool (love his archangel) and as set the stage for the ILClan era which I'm very much looking forward to.
What!? How good sir?! Even after my whole 30 plus min speal!?!?! XD Oh well, to each thier own! Plus if they are Capellans in mechs opposite you on the battlefield, you gotta do what you gotta do to win my friend. Good luck in your battles and games! :)
I think they had a good strategic reasoning in the invasion but miscalculated taurian independence. a mutual defense pact like what they would do in the future was a better option.
Really check out the warrior trilogy. Yes max and Romano are batshit and definitely portrayed as the villains but they are great characters and they make the trilogy. You find yourself just waiting to find out what they are gonna do next.
Hi Robert! Apologies for the late response and thank you for the book recommendation! Just added them to my next order list and will try to grab when I can. Hoping good old Max liao is as great as you say he is, I do love when characters are both mad crazy and interesting in there personality! Now you got me hyped XD
Of course! I fairly sure Free World's League is perfect and just, with NO problems at all! XD Honestly can't wait to cover them. They do seem to have a lot of interesting background lore and story that sets them apart from the other IS states. =)
To touch on the point at around @7:45 the Capellans wanting to sign the treaty. That could be seen as the best move of a very powerhungry house. at the time they are the thinnest stretched in terms of everything from economy to territory. i think its safe to say if the other houses agree to fight in less of a total war scenario then it benefits a house that cant fight that style of war for much longer.
Hey Chad! At the moment for lore specifics I have been using the Battletech: Field Manuals where I can find them (still missing the federated sun's sadly) I'm also using the the Catalyst games total warfare/campaign operations lore references and of course sarna.net. I've also been reading Shrapnel and some of the clan invasion/dark age/ilchan novels (hour of the wolf) published recently but regarding lore I don't think they count. Also been listening too alot of the lore channels on TH-cam and podcasts across the different sites but again not so sure they count as well.
@@frozenfrontwargaming9114 i would sat the leadership styles of the leaders makes a huge difference in how the Capellans are viewed. the two trilogies by Stackpole show some of the worst possible traits of the leaders and then moving forward you see some really good ones.
"If you treat people as monsters, they will become monsters." Okay, so if you treat people as a master race that is slave to the whims of the chancellor, the entire Capellan Confederation is bad. Just like Nazis. All Nazis are bad, right? This video series isn't bad, I love the nerd talk, but you do make we wonder at what point you'd even consider something evil. Just because the Federated Suns did something evil once doesn't mean all other evil actions are now acceptable. All the evil actions are always evil, no matter how common they are.
Hey Arc, and thank you for the well written response! I'm also glad to hear you find interest in the series so far. =) Ya, in terms of this episode and the previous one, I have had some very thought provoking comments (such as yours) and conversations open up my perspective to how this should have been presented better. My inability to create a opening foundation to what is "moral" in terms of the BT universe as well as our own real world is a major fault and mistake. Like you pointed out, not doing so can allow for anything to be waved off as "not evil" because it has nothing to be measured by and makes the value of morality as a whole mean little. While fun in terms of nerd ranting/off hand conversation pieces, that kind of thinking or lead in does defeat the purpose of trying to defend Capellans, or really, practically any faction in lore. I am seriously considering coming back to this topic and creating a "redux episode", where other people/fans/watchers and commenters can have their perspectives given the center stage on weather Capellans are morally justifiable in BattleTech or if they even deserve the chance to be proven "good". All the while having the core concept of "morals/morality" well defined before the episode starts so everyone knows what we are judging them by. Don't know how to make that episode just yet, maybe just letting people send in their own written work or just open up a live chat would work, but I think even that is far more fair then just me having on one sided conversation/rant and would make for a better episode. All the same, when I do somehow get that concept rolling, I would love to have your opinion in the episode! :)
"Choosing one overlord or another..."
It's almost as if the BT universe is based on feudalism or something.... :P
I'm slowly beginning to ponder that myself! XD
That's because BattleTech was kind of based on a neo feudalism society. And yes sometimes one of the Lord isn't that much better than the other one sometimes it's better to deal with the devil you know.
@@jasonthomas9596 I know, hence the joke.
Feudalism works, especially in a time of decentralized authority, and military defense taking priority over other societal priorities. Feudalism won't bring a lot of societal breakthroughs and advancements, but it will lead to stability and defined borders & responsibilities.
What I have come to understand (and deduce) is that a number of the author's of the novels is that, over time, all the Houses became more defined and deeper then their initial surface glances in the early days. (I'm old, I started buying BT/MW books and game material in the 80's when it came out). There is still a lot of souls out there that see things in black and white, but when you delve deeper you realize that every house and it's leadership have dirt in the closet, blood on their hands, and have proven over and over again that they'll pretty much stoop to any level to protect theirs and if possible, grab a piece of yours.
It's worth noting that the older BT novels are written from the POV of the protagonists. There is a certain subjective position that is alright, because that's how people are. The Cappies and Dracs got to play the heavy a lot, but how else would you expect a Davion or Steiner-related protagonist to see things? The Clans brought another antagonist faction into the mix, but the Clans weren't really villainous, they were just different, believed in their different-ness, and ready to stomp the entire Inner Sphere to prove it! Then there all the merc units that don't care about politics or ideology, unless it's necessary to mission completion so they can get their payday. When I was in university and read about the goings-on inside the Byzantine Empire and Medieval/Renaissance Italy, the situation sounded rather familiar, much like the Inner Sphere. 😏
@@observationsfromthebunker9639 I still make time to re-read those novels. I've got most of them up until about book 4 of the Dark Ages era when life got in the way and I became disillusioned. My YT channel is loaded with videos on the stuff. This past year I've gotten more interested in BT to the point I've been buying and reading what I can. Currently splitting my attention between Hunting Season and Question of Survival. Interesting how much has changed and yet, so much remains the same.
Taurians must not think the Capellans are super evil because they and the MoC became great allies and trading partners.
That was nice of you to extend some understanding to the older lore. As a Mechwarrior of a certain age, I came of age in an era where WW II veterans were hale and still knowing of the perils of going All The Way. The Cold War had made a mockery of the desired world peace, but at the same time nobody wanted to bring out the nukes and destroy half of humanity to totally destroy Capitalism/Communism. Most of the time. As Queen said, we're just waiting for the hammer to fall. A lot of the younger fans in military fiction fields don't understand going 100% on the opposition if it leads to total victory. It's cool, that ignorance is the result of the Cold War ending without WW III going down. Battletech is still realistic in understanding about going all out to win....and then having to pick up the pieces when victory proved elusive and there was only exhaustion and loss of life and the benefits of advanced spacefaring civilization in many places.
So, you have to figure that the Taurian Concordat knew, 'knew', that they have two larger, hungry houses looking for territory expansion and, since the Concordat sits between Liao and Davion and the deeper Periphery. Knowing this, and knowing that they weren't about to join an inner house willingly, nor pack up and bebop off to some other local. So, they developed a mentality that said, 'Come get some; we'll serve it hot, hard, and relentlessly'. Besides, it's easier to defend one's turf than to take another's, usually, anyway. Another thing that the Concordat has going for itself is that the big houses are always on guard against their neighbors or plotting against said neighbors. If the Taurians' can put up enough of a fight to make any serious invasion expensive, the likelihood that another great house will exploit the attackers increases. You know, there's a lot of folks who like to look at this house and that house and say, "oh, they're like this country or that on Earth'. Liao is communist china/north Korea, etc. If we're looking at things like this, then I'd have to say that the Concordat is a lot like the stereotypical hillbillies, highland clans of Scotland, with a dash of freedom fighter and Texas bootstomper tossed in. A gun in every room, tanks or mechs in every other barn, and a huge portion of the population that get a serious trill out of f'ing up anyone stupid enough to roll into the area and start making demands and claiming stuff.
Space West Virginia is angry....
@@PenTheMighty hehe...
First off Capellans are always wrong, because they are Capellans. Second, keep it up we need more of this in the community.
One, why must to pick on my poor Capellans like that...and two, thank you very much for liking my content! XD
Keeping the history is important. That being said we owe it to everyone to do and be better on all fronts going forward.
Also the setting is wacky AF, like crazy mad. In that kind of setting sometimes you need mustache twirling evil villainy, tropes can be fun.
I like seeing a new players perspective on this all. Keep it coming.
I will say this I love you are beginning this series in this way. The thing I love most about Battletech is that nobody is a good guy. Nobody is a bad guy. It is the epitome of "Nations have no permanent friends or enemies only permanent interests".
Hi Bobby and thank you very much for the response and kind words! And your right, that's what I think the BT universe does so well! It is kind of able to create a level of grey morality when its really hard to tell if anyone is right or wrong from one view point or another.
Glad you enjoyed the video =)
It's true no one is the good guys.
I would agree with you.i am surprised they are not as bad as most states.
Good thing in Battletech lore is, I came in reading the books in whatever order I could buy them so the first time I read about 33 books, I didn't understand a thing. All I knew was, that it blew me away. I love the books because each power is represented and we get their motivations behind their actions. I love Battletech. Glad you like it too. Thx for these vids.
I'd love to see the capellans do some crazy shit in ilclan. Gotta say I'm pretty excited to see what happens.
Honestly I'm with you Bob! I am super hyped to see what happens in ilclan and the story moving forward!
The chaos March wasn't a puppet state. It was the front lines of the FedCom Civil War. Then the word of Blake went nuke happy.
Also me, who played mechcommander 2: I WAS ON CARVER 5 MAN!
I actually like Capellans as bad guys, partly because I'm getting tired of the mindless unkillability of cheese in other settings. Looking at you Tyranids.
I often see this problem crop up as a fiction writer. It is completely fine to have an enemy to designate as simply bad, and acceptable to fight, for simplicity of stories sake. Orcs and Nids are a wonderful example, and good to have available for easy adventure modules and no holds barred fights. But I had to explain to my nephews that they can't have a Tyranid hero that thinks eating the whole galaxy is the wrong way to go about things. Tyranids aren't written in a way that allows that kind of story telling. Now, I am not going to go the Extra Credits route of equating orc warbands to real world ethnicities, I don't like the taste of foot that much. Simple bad guys do have their place in story telling. But the more I learn about BattleTech, the more I realise the draw of the setting is that even the designated bad guys have a three dimensional ideology that they actually believe has merit.
Liaos ideology is completely flawed, but the best of them will realise they are the 'spheres punching bag, and believe its living with this or spending their lives fighting off a foreign aggressor. Which actually overlaps a little with the Taurian attitude of 'get off my lawn.' That the punching bag and the fan favourite can actually completely agree on something that fundamental is why I'm liking this setting more and more.
It's refreshing to find someone who is willing to evaluate and potentially accept reasonable critiques as valid instead of doubling down. I'll be following your future videos with interest. 👍
Thank you very much! :)
They already did a good job of retconning the older eras of the Capellan Confederation by putting the blame on the Chancellors and their deteriorated mental stability.
Things got better under Sun Tzu, but his heir seems like he might have some of the same metal instability issues. (Which is very much in line with real world history when it comes to the hereditary coin flip when it comes to heirs)
Hey Jade! Thank you for the confirmation lore-wise with regards to retcons. I just know that is a touchy subject that needs to be treated with care sometimes. :)
Also yes, I do like the narrative in the BT universe that at the flip of a coin or the toss of a hat, the entire line of a royal house could end at the hands of one bad heir. It adds a lot to the world(s) of BattleTech!
This Sian flight control, aahhh were you aware that your Leapord appears to be on fire. Make sure all your cargo is safely stowed and emergency services will meet you upon landing.
Copy flight control, please ignore the flames and smoke those are just some...minor technical difficulties we are sorting out. Emergency services are not necessary but please advice any essential personal to vacate the landing area as soon as possible "just" in case...a rough landing occurs...
I thought it was just a meme not to trust Capellans at this point. Really seems to me Kurita is the major evil.
I think it's a little bit of both memeing and the way they were written in early BT lore to be real. :)
Also oooooh boy oh boy! JUST you wait till I get to the Draconis Combine! XD
Point taken. The Capellans are crafty, corrupt, and have dodged the verdict of history to a frustrating level. But they're not the militantly martial stratified society that is the Draconis Combine.
Ok,I decided to subscribe to your channel on the force of these two videos. I even enjoyed your point about the Cappellans. Even though I dislike their leadership in game(the Cappellans in the computer game are a bunch of tools). Anyway enjoy your stuff.
Thank you very much Marvin! I'm sorry for the delayed response but I just wanted to say I greatly appreciate the support and sub. :)
On your last point, you said that you can't use whataboutism to justify the Capellan Confederation's actions/injustices/wrongdoings. On this we are agreed. However if you modify your argument to be that the CC should not be seen as *the* moustache-twirling bad guy of the Battletech universe, I think this argument becomes a lot more valid. Every great house has had times of great heroism and has committed terrible atrocities. Everyone has blood on their hands, and at best you can argue about whose particular shade of gray looks nicer.
Another nicely done episode, and as I forgot to say it last time, welcome to the 'Sphere, Mechwarrior! I, personally, am a pretty big Fed Suns fanboy. But I won't claim they are all perfect, noble do-right dudes. I think they may have the best intentions of the great houses... but results haven't always gone that way...
At least there is another player in universe with you here, and hey, someone needs to drive the green 'mechs, right? Keep up the good work!
Thank you very much for Ralph! :D
One of the fundamental background elements of Battletech is that the setting is stupidly large. You're inevitably going to end up with different cultures and attitudes towards the people in power going from planet to planet, let alone regions owned by entirely separate houses. This will also vary based on time. Some people lead better than others; conditions are never the same; the status quo is forever shifting.
Security from violence, hunger, and the elements always take precedent. If the people in power locally are able to provide this security to an adequate level, and the people benefiting know what living without that security is like, they aren't going to complain much, even if they are sacrificing other stuff in the process. When this security is not adequate, shit hits the fan.
Evil is an incredibly loaded term, it's not very helpful when you're trying to look at stuff objectively. How good or bad something is, is entirely relative, there are no absolutes.
Well, aside from Highlander pilots. Mechwarriors who pilot Highlander's are gods among mortals who can do no wrong.
Thank you very much for the response Weird! That honestly is a far better way at looking at the world building and universe of BattleTech.
And I believe you are correct in you assessment.
Moving forward, I think I'll leave the judgement and labeling between good and evil behind. The Inner Sphere seems to be like a great sea of moral levels and depths that can and often change depending on who is leading or in control. Each region and planet, depending on where it is, could have entire view points I overlook just cause the map says so. That, and looking at it morally by picking one small point in time or with a big board stroke is not the best way to explore that aspect entirely.
Thank you for that, I think you may have helped me my next video good sir! :)
@@frozenfrontwargaming9114 While there's nothing at all wrong with your talking points, I feel like you could afford to lean a bit more into the exploratory side of the banter instead of fixating on what is already established.
Take for example the following prompts:
- How do you think things went behind the scenes of established lore, what are the resulting consequences?
- Why you think certain characters acted the way they did, how do you think they got to be that way?
- Why were characters and events written in the way that they were, what do you think needed to be different for events to occur in a particular fashion?
Etc. You're honestly at a bit of a disadvantage in this regard since you're monologuing without someone to bounce ideas off of.
You also don't need to apologise for pissing people off! While I understand that some of the apologising is performative, you're overdoing it while simultaneously being unnecessarily defensive. Besides, anyone who is genuinely pissed off about how someone else interprets the nuances of a sci-fi setting is an idiot. The whole point of banter is that people are going to disagree. The opinions and understanding of the people you're talking to, as well as yourself, are going to change; relax!
I've been into Battletech for, I think, roughly the same amount of time as you have (you sound like you're around the same age as me too). There is a lot of blank space and uncertainty within the setting, a lot of which will never be resolved. Some of that is simply because there's not enough time and money in the world to do so. However, a lot of it was done intentionally so that people could fill in the gaps with their own content. The gaps are where the truly entertaining stories lie.
The thing I have come to realise is that literally the entire franchise, whether that be the setting, novels, rule and sourcebooks', tabletop game itself, or everything else in between; it's all been optimised for generating stories. You can and will find anything and everything somewhere in the inner sphere and that's a big part of its charm; the endless possibilities that the setting provides a framework for. In this way, Battletech is a franchise full of humanity. There's room for a little bit of everything, and a million different ways to think about it.
Personally I've been gradually writing down ideas for my dream Battletech videogame. It's a lot of fun creating things that fit into the tapestry.
A lot of the Chaos March wasn't originally Capellan worlds they were Terran Hegemony, one of the reasons they didn't mind being ruled by the Fedcom till Catharine left them to rot when she ceded the Lyran half of the common wealth. One of the reasons they were all to eager to be part of the Word of Blake Protectorate during the Jihad and later the Republic of the Sphere.
Hi Joshua and thank you very much for explaining that!
I have not really delved into the Jihad era (on a very long list of lore aspects I need to look into) but yes, I should have pointed that out regarding the Chaos March and its relation to the Terran Hegemony. Just because they are been traded back and forth between the successor states periodically after its fall did not make them loyal to the Confederation. A few might have been throughout, and the views of the others might have changed overtime, but not all of them that is to be sure.
Always good to have someone more understanding in lore/universe factcheck. :)
@@frozenfrontwargaming9114 Jihad is a fun one and always thought the idea of Benjamin Emory started out as a fan character and became one of the era's most infamous Villains as Precentor Berith was really cool (love his archangel) and as set the stage for the ILClan era which I'm very much looking forward to.
I'm quite late to the party... However...
Welcome to battletech. And welcome to the deep dive of fictional politics.
I like this series
Thank you very much! I am glad you like it so far! :)
Going clockwise around the Inner Sphere...
So saving the best for last.
#Bias?WhatBias?
You know it! XD
You can keep loving your Capellans. I'll keep talking crap about them and killing them into oblivion in every Battletech game. Win/win :)
What!? How good sir?! Even after my whole 30 plus min speal!?!?! XD
Oh well, to each thier own! Plus if they are Capellans in mechs opposite you on the battlefield, you gotta do what you gotta do to win my friend. Good luck in your battles and games! :)
"Local man discovers previously held beliefs to be untenable, proceeds to fantasize about world where his convictions become justified."
Can a man not dream of a better world!?! Where hath my Inner Sphere gone? XD
if it is stupid but works its not stupid
I think they had a good strategic reasoning in the invasion but miscalculated taurian independence. a mutual defense pact like what they would do in the future was a better option.
Really check out the warrior trilogy. Yes max and Romano are batshit and definitely portrayed as the villains but they are great characters and they make the trilogy. You find yourself just waiting to find out what they are gonna do next.
Hi Robert! Apologies for the late response and thank you for the book recommendation! Just added them to my next order list and will try to grab when I can. Hoping good old Max liao is as great as you say he is, I do love when characters are both mad crazy and interesting in there personality! Now you got me hyped XD
Free Worlds?
You mean the WoBbie-lovers?
Yeah, no controversy there... :P
Of course! I fairly sure Free World's League is perfect and just, with NO problems at all! XD
Honestly can't wait to cover them. They do seem to have a lot of interesting background lore and story that sets them apart from the other IS states. =)
To touch on the point at around @7:45 the Capellans wanting to sign the treaty. That could be seen as the best move of a very powerhungry house. at the time they are the thinnest stretched in terms of everything from economy to territory. i think its safe to say if the other houses agree to fight in less of a total war scenario then it benefits a house that cant fight that style of war for much longer.
just curious what novels you have read so far for the lore.
Hey Chad! At the moment for lore specifics I have been using the Battletech: Field Manuals where I can find them (still missing the federated sun's sadly) I'm also using the the Catalyst games total warfare/campaign operations lore references and of course sarna.net.
I've also been reading Shrapnel and some of the clan invasion/dark age/ilchan novels (hour of the wolf) published recently but regarding lore I don't think they count.
Also been listening too alot of the lore channels on TH-cam and podcasts across the different sites but again not so sure they count as well.
@@frozenfrontwargaming9114 i would sat the leadership styles of the leaders makes a huge difference in how the Capellans are viewed. the two trilogies by Stackpole show some of the worst possible traits of the leaders and then moving forward you see some really good ones.
"If you treat people as monsters, they will become monsters." Okay, so if you treat people as a master race that is slave to the whims of the chancellor, the entire Capellan Confederation is bad. Just like Nazis. All Nazis are bad, right?
This video series isn't bad, I love the nerd talk, but you do make we wonder at what point you'd even consider something evil. Just because the Federated Suns did something evil once doesn't mean all other evil actions are now acceptable. All the evil actions are always evil, no matter how common they are.
Hey Arc, and thank you for the well written response! I'm also glad to hear you find interest in the series so far. =)
Ya, in terms of this episode and the previous one, I have had some very thought provoking comments (such as yours) and conversations open up my perspective to how this should have been presented better. My inability to create a opening foundation to what is "moral" in terms of the BT universe as well as our own real world is a major fault and mistake. Like you pointed out, not doing so can allow for anything to be waved off as "not evil" because it has nothing to be measured by and makes the value of morality as a whole mean little. While fun in terms of nerd ranting/off hand conversation pieces, that kind of thinking or lead in does defeat the purpose of trying to defend Capellans, or really, practically any faction in lore.
I am seriously considering coming back to this topic and creating a "redux episode", where other people/fans/watchers and commenters can have their perspectives given the center stage on weather Capellans are morally justifiable in BattleTech or if they even deserve the chance to be proven "good". All the while having the core concept of "morals/morality" well defined before the episode starts so everyone knows what we are judging them by.
Don't know how to make that episode just yet, maybe just letting people send in their own written work or just open up a live chat would work, but I think even that is far more fair then just me having on one sided conversation/rant and would make for a better episode. All the same, when I do somehow get that concept rolling, I would love to have your opinion in the episode! :)
So......is it too far fetched to say that the Capellan Confederation is what Twitter would be if they had their own state to rule? xD