The single worst thing to come out of fighting game discourse from the SF4 era was the demonization of flowcharts and gameplans. I can't tell you how much better I got at fighting games once I stopped trying to make the sickest galaxy brain choices at every opportunity, and just learned to have a default plan that I could alter as needed.
I think that the high offense games, like Gear and Vs games with assists, really helped me learn to have a goal. In footsie centric games your goal is to "have the answers" and make good reads. In rush down games the goal is a much more tangible "I can't wait to put this fool in blockstun and land a phat command grab while they're blocking", which adds direction to the rest of the match. Anybody else feel this?
I blame people not understanding how vortex set play worked in SF4 and how it relied entirely on them not learning the OS meta. Then SF5 dropped and created a half decade's worth of players that learned that "Press X to get Y result everytime" style of passive reactive gameplay. So yeah, don't just blame SF4 for people being dumb, blame SF5 for giving those numbnuts a hugbox to point to people if they want don't want to learn how to adapt and think on the fly.
@@janematthews9087 Oh, I still think SF4 is a good game that had a lot of offensive depth to learn, but the discussion around it was very anti-flowchart, pro-footsies, and heavy with FG purity testing.
There is an interview with Bruce Lee where he explains a rather simple concept. He says that to react accordingly you must train your body so much that your instincts become your training, that when you body needs it, it is there.
i usually make sure to find all the wrong answers first (i'm really good at doing that) somewhere along the way i get the answer right but i have to repeat it a few times on accident before i start internalizing what im doing and then start doing it on purpose
Same. After getting hard punished several times in a row in multiple matches, I eventually reached the conclusion of, "Okay, so maybe raw Stun Dipper is not a good idea."
A reminder that there's more to learning the game than just mindlessly playing it. Community engagement is a good way to access aggregated knowledge. No player is an island. Solid talk as always.
Knowing strong stuff by sight can def take some time since you need to know what’s strong in the context of the game. For example, in MBTL, Noel’s 2C is a pretty good button, but definitely has its weaknesses due to it hitting super low to the ground in a game about air neutral, but if the same button were in a GG game, it’d be absolutely absurd how much you’d be pressing that shit due to how easy it is to convert off of and how much ground it controls. Hell, even in the same series, Sin’s Elk Hunt is almost the same move in function and application as Nago’s beyblade, but it’s not even his best move due to the system changes of IB, pressure in general, and how Sin doesn’t have a move to cancel into that will as reliably annihilate you as CH Nago DP
5:09 this little talk is really important imo. everyone has their own understanding of what is strong or, what they themselves excel at, and can work their strategies around that. you can't play exactly like anyone else but you can (and should) absolutely steal things that fit you as a person. Diaphone and daru leveled the fuck out of my ino and hotashi leveled up my nago, but i still don't play like any of them, i just absorbed what fits me
6:11 I’ve ended up on the extreme end of the spectrum where I don’t like throwing out any moves w/o intention, but because I’m still super new, this usually means I spend most of the match doing nothing. I sit there blocking thinking about what I’m supposed to be doing very slowly
people don't talk about analysis paralysis enough. tons of rookie players will struggle with playing the game fast enough because they're thinking about their decisions so thoroughly. sometimes you gotta combine analysis with instinct.
Love to see my boy baccpack getting some love. Also love the advice about developing flowcharts and knowing when to break from them! Watching every high level Happy has helped me learn a lot about how to play him especially since he's so much different than my other main Sol
I fought a pot player yesterday, literally all he did was forward mega fist into 2D or pot buster. I had figured out his entire gameplan after 1 round but it was still hard to beat since those are such good options.
That gameplan can be beaten pretty consistently actually! I wrote it out for you below if you should ever encounter it again. I don't know who you play, but an option most characters can do against forward mega fist is to run as close as possible then block (preferably IB but not necessary), then use your fastest button and it will punish it because fwd mega fist is pretty negative on block. For example: I play Gio and can punish it from really far with 5k or 2k. I usually don't even have to be close, but characters with shorter fast buttons might need to. You could also take your turn starting a blockstring with a ~7f move because Pot is negative and is essentially giving up his turn. You'd have to check Dustloop for your character's options by checking the startup of your moves. Another option is to run up and do your invincible reversal. I call out this sort of thing with Gio 623S if I'm confident they'll jump or mega fist or the likes. It's pretty intimidating, which means most players stop after getting hit by it once. If they don't, I can just win the game by doing it every time. Your character might also have an option like this. A common one most characters have is just raw super, which definitely makes people think twice about committing. Hope that helps! Feel free to ask any questions you might have.
Do you think that what you mention around the 10 min. Mark is why Hotashi's strategy of pull up and wait or sit back and wait is so effective? Since more players are looking for the opponent to be doing something at all times and when he does nothing it creates mental lag while they think "What is he doing?" which he then takes advantage of?
People talk shit about flow charts but you need to have one to start, and then it needs to include branches for "did that work -> no". If you're only ever thinking about what to do when your hits land, you're screwed.
I find it really difficult to get GL's safejumps consistent. There's a sweet spot timing where it does everything you want- but time it slightly too late and get hit by DP, or too early and you whiff the meaty/get grabbed. You can set CPUs to rotate between the wake-up options, but even if they do a DP and I block it I can never tell if my timing was right if they instead did a grab or just blocked. I wish there was some "safe jump timing indicator" that appeared. Even when you're doing a supposed "automatic timing" setup (like some listed on Dustloop) there's still room for error. It's just frustrating that I can never really know if I'm actually hitting the timing right without some weird counting method or just being insanely precise
The only way to make the adaptations is understanding fundamentals. Don't think of this is as some sort of hyperspecific situation. If you just generically understand risk reward when you are negative but outside of opponents punish/make u block range, then life gets easier
I have somewhat the same experience in fighting games. I’ll be playing and get smacked with something and I think hmm that seems good, maybe it was just a weird scenario. Then it happens again and I have to check it out.
It’s about character knowledge imo. Everyone who can’t figure out counters swaps mains and never tries to do anything new. Cs behemoth isn’t working so I better ask pros why I’m getting demolished instead of trying anything else
For the longest time I watched people doing jump 5a in Blazblue way outside of its range and I was completely flummoxed as to why, I just noticed a lot of pro players did it. Constantly. It wasn't until I started doing it that I realised... hold on, this is the lowest committal ever instant air dash check. It works like a fucking charm and doesn't really sacrifice any spacing.
This is why I love Tekken so much. Because the move list is so large, once you reach competency you can actually start to experiment from a large scope of attacks that cover specific ranges and cover specific situations. I feel like *For* *Me* *Personally* fighting games are actually more unknowable when the movelist is smaller. It really helps for me that Tekken characters are 3D, are humans, and are at least 1 shade more representative of reality than characters that fly across the screen and do super laser beams and fireballs and still attack mostly from a basis of an understandable reality, even if the reality is of course superhuman. All of the other fighting games I've tried have a degree of heavy uncertainty to me even after at least getting to grips with the controls and playing ranked matches against others. I think that it just has to do with the 3D nature of it so my brain connects the dots easier for me on a subconscious level.
I don't know any good players that didn't grind out training mode. You can get above average if you have natural ability. But the closer we approach pro level. They all grind out training.
I'm required by law to safe jump on every knockdown
It's because everybody plays so feral that they can't be trusted on wakeup
I cannot wait for jiyuna to enjoy Christmas' eve with sajam's family while sajam is crying outside by a window.
Jiyuna smiles and chuckles to Sajam and to himself; knowing that his master plan has been accomplished. He won.
I can't wait for Sajam's future wife to enjoy a lovely anniversary dinner with Brian F while Sajam is crying outside the restaurant
It's a dinner with every single white FGC TH-camr pretending to be Sajam, except Sajam himself
Even Majas is there
The single worst thing to come out of fighting game discourse from the SF4 era was the demonization of flowcharts and gameplans. I can't tell you how much better I got at fighting games once I stopped trying to make the sickest galaxy brain choices at every opportunity, and just learned to have a default plan that I could alter as needed.
I think that the high offense games, like Gear and Vs games with assists, really helped me learn to have a goal. In footsie centric games your goal is to "have the answers" and make good reads. In rush down games the goal is a much more tangible "I can't wait to put this fool in blockstun and land a phat command grab while they're blocking", which adds direction to the rest of the match. Anybody else feel this?
flowchart kens on ps3 was the worst thing ive ever seen
@@TheJbrown60 He might be getting his bachelor's to become an insurance adjuster, but at least he's got a plan.
I blame people not understanding how vortex set play worked in SF4 and how it relied entirely on them not learning the OS meta. Then SF5 dropped and created a half decade's worth of players that learned that "Press X to get Y result everytime" style of passive reactive gameplay.
So yeah, don't just blame SF4 for people being dumb, blame SF5 for giving those numbnuts a hugbox to point to people if they want don't want to learn how to adapt and think on the fly.
@@janematthews9087 Oh, I still think SF4 is a good game that had a lot of offensive depth to learn, but the discussion around it was very anti-flowchart, pro-footsies, and heavy with FG purity testing.
There is an interview with Bruce Lee where he explains a rather simple concept. He says that to react accordingly you must train your body so much that your instincts become your training, that when you body needs it, it is there.
Can't believe Sajam is just out here giving away Terry Typhon's tech for free. smh my head
i usually make sure to find all the wrong answers first (i'm really good at doing that)
somewhere along the way i get the answer right but i have to repeat it a few times on accident before i start internalizing what im doing and then start doing it on purpose
This is me getting permanently counter hit by nagos beyblade trying to beat it and one day accidentally grabbing it
Same. After getting hard punished several times in a row in multiple matches, I eventually reached the conclusion of, "Okay, so maybe raw Stun Dipper is not a good idea."
A reminder that there's more to learning the game than just mindlessly playing it. Community engagement is a good way to access aggregated knowledge. No player is an island.
Solid talk as always.
Looney Toons is such a thumbnail goldmine
Knowing strong stuff by sight can def take some time since you need to know what’s strong in the context of the game. For example, in MBTL, Noel’s 2C is a pretty good button, but definitely has its weaknesses due to it hitting super low to the ground in a game about air neutral, but if the same button were in a GG game, it’d be absolutely absurd how much you’d be pressing that shit due to how easy it is to convert off of and how much ground it controls. Hell, even in the same series, Sin’s Elk Hunt is almost the same move in function and application as Nago’s beyblade, but it’s not even his best move due to the system changes of IB, pressure in general, and how Sin doesn’t have a move to cancel into that will as reliably annihilate you as CH Nago DP
5:09 this little talk is really important imo. everyone has their own understanding of what is strong or, what they themselves excel at, and can work their strategies around that. you can't play exactly like anyone else but you can (and should) absolutely steal things that fit you as a person. Diaphone and daru leveled the fuck out of my ino and hotashi leveled up my nago, but i still don't play like any of them, i just absorbed what fits me
The second part of this video reminds of Core-A Gaming's video "Analysis: Playing, Fast and Slow"
6:11 I’ve ended up on the extreme end of the spectrum where I don’t like throwing out any moves w/o intention, but because I’m still super new, this usually means I spend most of the match doing nothing. I sit there blocking thinking about what I’m supposed to be doing very slowly
The best parts of these videos is watching Sajam struggle with his hairdo
people don't talk about analysis paralysis enough. tons of rookie players will struggle with playing the game fast enough because they're thinking about their decisions so thoroughly. sometimes you gotta combine analysis with instinct.
Love to see my boy baccpack getting some love. Also love the advice about developing flowcharts and knowing when to break from them! Watching every high level Happy has helped me learn a lot about how to play him especially since he's so much different than my other main Sol
I fought a pot player yesterday, literally all he did was forward mega fist into 2D or pot buster. I had figured out his entire gameplan after 1 round but it was still hard to beat since those are such good options.
That gameplan can be beaten pretty consistently actually! I wrote it out for you below if you should ever encounter it again.
I don't know who you play, but an option most characters can do against forward mega fist is to run as close as possible then block (preferably IB but not necessary), then use your fastest button and it will punish it because fwd mega fist is pretty negative on block. For example: I play Gio and can punish it from really far with 5k or 2k. I usually don't even have to be close, but characters with shorter fast buttons might need to. You could also take your turn starting a blockstring with a ~7f move because Pot is negative and is essentially giving up his turn. You'd have to check Dustloop for your character's options by checking the startup of your moves.
Another option is to run up and do your invincible reversal. I call out this sort of thing with Gio 623S if I'm confident they'll jump or mega fist or the likes. It's pretty intimidating, which means most players stop after getting hit by it once. If they don't, I can just win the game by doing it every time. Your character might also have an option like this. A common one most characters have is just raw super, which definitely makes people think twice about committing.
Hope that helps! Feel free to ask any questions you might have.
7:52 he said it! he said the thing!
damn, he's unidentifiable by even friends and family
I used to play games for fun. But since watching various gamers. I'm learning a lot. This video helped me TONZ! Thanks Sajam!
thanks for being a guilty gear strive content creator and not jumping ship to every new fg that comes out
fascinating conversation here Sajam, thx
default gameplan + oodaloop for customising to your opponent is about the best possible strategy for competitive decision making
is that a Guy Fieri GL mod?
thanks sajam
Do you think that what you mention around the 10 min. Mark is why Hotashi's strategy of pull up and wait or sit back and wait is so effective? Since more players are looking for the opponent to be doing something at all times and when he does nothing it creates mental lag while they think "What is he doing?" which he then takes advantage of?
People talk shit about flow charts but you need to have one to start, and then it needs to include branches for "did that work -> no". If you're only ever thinking about what to do when your hits land, you're screwed.
I see, so you think and use your brain. I now see where I'm going wrong.
I find it really difficult to get GL's safejumps consistent. There's a sweet spot timing where it does everything you want- but time it slightly too late and get hit by DP, or too early and you whiff the meaty/get grabbed. You can set CPUs to rotate between the wake-up options, but even if they do a DP and I block it I can never tell if my timing was right if they instead did a grab or just blocked. I wish there was some "safe jump timing indicator" that appeared. Even when you're doing a supposed "automatic timing" setup (like some listed on Dustloop) there's still room for error. It's just frustrating that I can never really know if I'm actually hitting the timing right without some weird counting method or just being insanely precise
1:41 its minus, but more importantly we gonna ignore that frame data on some fuck shit anyway
The only way to make the adaptations is understanding fundamentals. Don't think of this is as some sort of hyperspecific situation. If you just generically understand risk reward when you are negative but outside of opponents punish/make u block range, then life gets easier
I have somewhat the same experience in fighting games. I’ll be playing and get smacked with something and I think hmm that seems good, maybe it was just a weird scenario. Then it happens again and I have to check it out.
It’s about character knowledge imo. Everyone who can’t figure out counters swaps mains and never tries to do anything new. Cs behemoth isn’t working so I better ask pros why I’m getting demolished instead of trying anything else
For the longest time I watched people doing jump 5a in Blazblue way outside of its range and I was completely flummoxed as to why, I just noticed a lot of pro players did it. Constantly.
It wasn't until I started doing it that I realised... hold on, this is the lowest committal ever instant air dash check. It works like a fucking charm and doesn't really sacrifice any spacing.
Your dad probably saw Majas. Totally understandable
This is why I love Tekken so much. Because the move list is so large, once you reach competency you can actually start to experiment from a large scope of attacks that cover specific ranges and cover specific situations. I feel like *For* *Me* *Personally* fighting games are actually more unknowable when the movelist is smaller. It really helps for me that Tekken characters are 3D, are humans, and are at least 1 shade more representative of reality than characters that fly across the screen and do super laser beams and fireballs and still attack mostly from a basis of an understandable reality, even if the reality is of course superhuman.
All of the other fighting games I've tried have a degree of heavy uncertainty to me even after at least getting to grips with the controls and playing ranked matches against others. I think that it just has to do with the 3D nature of it so my brain connects the dots easier for me on a subconscious level.
I feel you, and I can take that one step further to say that all of the above applies to why I like Virtua Fighter even more than Tekken.
I play Bowser in smash remix, and nobody else plays him so I have to figure out almost everything myself.
I refuse to do anything other than the safejump option against a Leo. Can't trust em.
There was a time where I though Sajam and Brian_F where the same person, so yeah, the internet is right
i dont get the jiyuna vs sajam shit tbh whats that about
Why pay for metafy courses when we got Sajam
I'm sf kinda guy and i think in SF is way easier to find these because the game is more slow and footsies focus. In GG i basically 6P and unga bunga.
We need to get all these white boys with hair together to see who is the best at fighting games
Im watching this intent cus i want to enjoy capcom fighting collection. And inversely make people mad at me.
"they rotate through the strong options and can be kind of rhythmic"
I'm in this video and I don't like it
lmao your own dad noooo
Sajam truly is the default Sims character of white people.
I don't know any good players that didn't grind out training mode. You can get above average if you have natural ability. But the closer we approach pro level. They all grind out training.
Playing the Secretary of Absolute Defense but unable to defend himself from snowblind bigots atpFeelsBeardMan
WHERE THE F IS WILL IT KILL
Skipped last month due to Combo Breaker. Should be streamed June 24 and posted the usual time.
Watching other people to find out what what button you could be using is amazing
Watching jmcroft do axl 2h in plus r changed my life 😂
I cannot wait for jiyuna to enjoy Christmas' eve with sajam's family while sajam is crying outside by a window.