I'm confused, I just watched a very well written, acted and filmed TV show which I thoroughly enjoyed while none of the actors or directors have have attacked me because of my skin colour or sex...
Not well written when they race-swapped the Velaryons and completely fucked over the Targaryen bloodline. Aegon I is now Black. Jaehaerys is now Black. Alyssane is not Black. Viserys I is now Black. They've cast an women to play a male Admiral. Except that woman is a MAN pretending to be female. Wokest show on TV but apparently having a couple of good scenes makes it OK? Never give them an inch! Fight the Culture War! Give in to wank over dwagons! Pathetic!
A diverse cast, including a non-binary actor and gay characters, two women leads. But no discord about fans being bigots or racists. Interesting. It’s almost like everyone enjoys good shows and movies, regardless of who is on screen.
@@proudsaiyanprince2651it was stupid that they made him black but the actor is quite good and his race doesn’t get mentioned. That’s enough for me but I understand why certain people just still can’t stand it like you.
@@proudsaiyanprince2651 I don't agree with the 'cringe' commentary, not sure where that is coming from. I don't follow any actor interviews or behind the scene stuff. Just let the product speak for itself. He is a good actor. The raceswap is what it is, and good on them for incorporating it into the story in an interesting way.
when they broke it down about house of the dragon season 1 costing around the same as the acolyte i had to check, under 20m per episode for 10 episodes for hotd and 180m for the acolyte which is going to be 8 episodes. Its actually insane the gap between these 2 shows and lucasfilm have the sheer fukin hubris to claim people hate the show cuz of sexism and racism
Also, HotD episodes are basically double the lenght of Acolyte's ones... so you have roughly 10 hours of content for HotD and barely four for The Acolyte. If you think about it, it's insane. Where the hell did they put all that money in Disney?
Ewan Mitchel is such a talented actor, looking at how he played Osferth in the Last Kingdom and then seeing how he plays Aemon in this displays so much range that not a lot of actors can pull off
I am glad that they silently but surely distanced themselves from the GOT series by mentioning that the dragons refused to pass the Wall. It's book lore accurate now
No , it didn't. Silverwing (Queen Alisans Dragon) actually flew past the Wall but returned shortly after , and that frightened the Queen because the dragon never refused an Order and Dragons aren't able to speak so ...🤷🏻♂️
@@christiankremer7440 You are lying. Silverwing refused to go over the wall. "Alysanne attempted on three occasions to fly Silverwing north beyond the Wall, but the dragon refused and veered south every time. Alysanne wrote to Jaehaerys that she was troubled by the fact that Silverwing refused to fly over the Wall, despite never refusing her commands previously. "
@@christiankremer7440what’s even cool is she played it off as the dragon was just tired or something cause the whole castle black was watching and she had to keep up the idea that she was in control
14:28 To answer Mauler's question, in episode 10/S1, Rhaenys states she will personally patrol the blockade. She doesn't really give Rhaenyra a say or asks for permission. Based on that, Rhaenys would be unavailable & thus Rhaenyra sends Luke. She chooses Storms End for Luke bc it's closer/short flight & she (wrongly) assumes he'll be met with fanfare & safe conduct, since they share blood. She couldnt have known the Greens sent out Aemond/Vhagar to that same place & the BS that would ensue, which led to his death. BOOK reasoning is probably simpler: It's just what Jace says earlier, "dragons fly faster than ravens," & so she sent her boys out.
She also didn’t account for the storm. If it was clear weather he would have seen vagar was already there and he would have been able to outrun her later
@rl8259 Nah this argument is dumb. Just because we have magic and dragons doesn't mean common sense in environments and situations need to be tossed out the window. This argument never made sense to me. It's a cop out. And this show has done a pretty good job on keeping the realism
In the book, Blood and Cheese had to kill two guards who were with the Queen. Honestly, though? Not a huge deal to me. None were with Alicent. So, two total - and no others near enough to hear. But.... there are tons of guards in the Red Keep, it isn't insane for them to not all be standing around that high up in the Keep, in 'private area' of the royal family. However, there was one guard on duty in that area - Criston Cole.
In the Alicent / Criston bedroom scene (around 1:07:00) it’s also interested that two nights when Cole is on guard a major tragedy happens like with S1’s fight and Aemond looses an eye and now a child is dead
The show is so good at setting up future plot points. I didn’t read the books but this franchise sets up stuff very well. The fact that this episode was about a page, is crazy.
it was not about a page m8... only the last scene is in the book, the rest is made up bs xD correction, Cregan Stark "introduction" was also in the book.
The ease to which Blood and Cheese made it to the heirs was disappointing. The book made it so difficult... . I also hope that Cris was supposed to be on guard and that comes back to destroy both him and Alicent
1:10:15 I think Gary is wrong there, in the books Laenor was killed in a market square and they have his body. There is no ambiguity that he died, only the killer's motive is unclear.
imagine having a show that good that there is an actual discussion stream about it after... to enjoy it as a community and celebrate it... and imagine telling everyone those exact guys can't like anything and only get joy out of hating stuff for clicks.... how dumb must they feel?
There is no way Aemond would admit that he lost control of the dragon. Cole is a simp & Alicent has now realised the men hold all the power & she’s at their mercy.
Sorry for all the specific replies 😅 BUT Mauler 43:52 EXACTLY!! I rant about this in my video. The writing for Rhaenys reeks of "writer's clairvoyance". She does & says things in universe than make no sense other than the writer's want her to make these points. & this extends to OTHER characters she interacts with (Rhaenyra & Alicent, mainly). Not ONCE is she remorseful for her stupid stunt in the Dragonpit & she's so smug in episodes 9-10 & yet Alicent is all "you shouldve always been Queen over Viserys"; even Rhaenyra compliments her...even tho Rhaenys DOESNT bow (twice!) to acknowledge Rhaenyra as Queen. But it gets overlooked bc of reasons. 🙄 Daemon is the only one to truly call her out, but he cant ever get the "upperhand" bc the writer's wont allow it. I admit that they are (hopefully) building up to a certain event regarding Rhaenys, but I maintain that it will depend on HOW they handle it/what context is it under...& considering how they fumbled B&C, I dont have high hopes.
B&C was well done in my opinion. I don't want to see a child being beheaded on tv, the sound alone is enough for me. Helena did good, pointing the boy was clever because as she guessed it will be too easy so they will go for the boy brilliant.
Its different too, despite being a second season, they came up with a decent riff on the iconic opening with the threads and the blood, where-as in GoT, it was pretty much the same Intro across every season.
They could've achieved the same effect of not actually showing the death but still had it be way more impactful if Helaena had to make the choice and chose Maelor who should've been there but then Cheese grabbed her, covered her mouth so she couldn't scream and was taunting her while Blood cut off Jaehaery's head instead. Just have the camera focus in on her face as we hear the sound effects similar to the scene from GoT where Ramsay "beds" Sansa and Theon looks on in horror.
Mauler talking about his dad is so real. My parents aren’t really into their lore and just watched the show as it came out no questions asked (honestly wouldn’t be surprised if they didn’t understand all of it) And even they were mega disappointed about how GOT ended
The set of this show is laughably, epically light years ahead of what other studios are putting out right now. And the writing is perfection. Not even a comparison.
The problem I often see in CGI is when huge creatures move around and don't shake the earth. That dragon crept down the hill, but the guards remained motionless.
A missed opportunity with Blood/Cheese, so many elements of what made that moment a MOMENT weren't present: • Helaena's impossible CHOICE. If the writer's thought infanticide was the "shock value" of the Blood/Cheese moment, they're wrong & showing they don't understand the source material. It was more about Helaena's choice, an impossible one for a MOTHER to make, but she's forced to do it, even after pleading for them to take 𝘩𝘦𝘳 life instead (something Show Helaena doesn't even offer to do??). Even without Maelor, as the "spare", this moment as the show did it with just the twins could've hit harder if Helaena was forced to choose which one to sacrifice VS just point out which one is the boy 🙃 • I know it's been forever ago & most of us are blocking out GOT, but GOT had a scene with a mother/baby getting unalived. When Joffrey ordered all of Robert's bastards to be killed & one was a baby. They cut the scene, just showed us the mother's horrified reaction... NO ONE in the fandom wants to actually see a child/baby unalived or beheaded. What's not seen is sometimes more powerful, same thing here. & I'm just pointing out GOT show has done this before & MORE (Burning Shireen, stabbing pregnant Talisa, ETC). I get that we're going with Helaena is "different" or on the spectrum & she hasn't had a "normal" response to ANYTHING, if you watch her in S1...but still weird to not have her be more impacted in some way, esp since she "sensed" something would happen. • Alicent not being present. This one is more minor overall. But it would've been the better call to have her gagged/bound & watching this unfold, helpless to stop it, as in the book. Alicent already feels uneasy, guilty & helpless over what Aemond did & this is a clear act of vengeance for it. It just reinforces for her all the "doom" she's complicit in bc she crowned Aegon. Having her get dicked down by Criston instead feels disassociated from everything else going on. Overall the episode was a 6/10, but it could've been a solid 8-9/10, if we had raised the stakes & stuck closer to the book/lore. ALL of the ASOIAF books pull zero punches with its characters & events, it's a shame/disappointing the show does.
Absolutely spot on, this is an f-ed up world & it appears that the show runners/writers pulled their punches & it was a bad decision. They could have had one of the most talked about incident on TV in years. I mean no one talks about any show & this could have sent the show stratospheric but they blew it. You had 2 years of build up & even if most people did not know Blood & Cheese they still turned it into something that felt under-powered. Does not fill me with hope for the rest of the series. Saying the show is better than anything around is not a high bar any more.
I m seeing a lot this criticism from book readers, can you elaborate in what you mean when you say that haelena didn't have to make a choice? Because to me it seems that she had to make the choice, and she did when she indicated the boy. But I didn't read the books so maybe I lost some passages
@@lukedarks1272 She had to make a choice between her 2 sons. She chose the younger one because he wouldn't know what happens, but they end up killing the eldest son. Have a look at Alt Shift X's breakdown of the episode he explains what was supposed to happen in detail vs what the show did. The bone of contention is that what is written in the book is way better & far darker than the way the show did it which appeared diluted. Plus the show in s1 had rats in scenes & so many saw this as foreshadowing Blood & Cheese & they kind of bottled it.
I didn't like the change they made with blood and cheese compared to the book. Don't get me wrong, it's still horrifying what happens, but it isn't as messed up as what happened in the books. Especially how it fks ups poor Helaena.
We haven't seen the results of this scene yet, Although I myself did not have enough emotions from Heleina. Maybe she knew what would happen, but still
I liked the episode and 7/10 is a perfect rating, but I was a little dissapointed by the ending since I read the book. But I'm so excited to see the dragons and especially Vhagar and Vermithor in action. Looking forward to your reviews of the rest of the second season.
The impression I got when Helana pointed out her son was that she wasn't choosing. In her mind, she was just pointing at the one she knew they were going to kill. It's kind of a brian scramble as she wasn't sure it was real or a vision. I think they she needed more scenes in this episode to better establish her mental state before hand.
B&C was botched, and to me it shows how much damage the industry has suffered in ten years. There are just too many things interfering and meddling that prevent a good and faithful adaptation when it's needed.
Too many sensitivity readers & blue rinse types thinking the audience can't take really f-ed up stuff when everyone outside the wokesters on X loves that stuff.
@@DianeCee57 I just read a comment,in another video, saying "You're supposed to root for Rhae. And if she gave the order people wouldn't love her and taker her side." As if this story is supposed to be good guys vs bad guys, or a football match, with two teams that you have to pick sides.
@@saelind73Rhaenyra doesn't even order Blood and Cheese in the book, Daemon does. They didn't even have to make her look bad in that moment and they still pussied out on the scene.
What more do ya want, are they supposed to show them cutting off a kids head?, besides making her chose between the younger son & the heir… it was fine I thought
@billsmafia2473 I hated that they removed choosing between the two sons, how minimal they chose to make Heleana's reaction, and that they end the scene with her walking in on Cole/Alicent. They could've cut away from the act itself to Heleana screaming in horror/crying after seeing it happen.
Regarding the dragons not crossing the Wall, another implication is that they are magical creatures, and thus the power of the Wall holds them back from crossing. It was the same with Coldhands, the undead guy who brought Sam & Gilly back to the Wall and showed them the secret passage that only opens to a brother of the Night's Watch, which Sam then uses to send Bran, Hodor & the Reeds through, for Coldhands to escort to the cave of the Three Eyed Crow (whose great-grandparents are on the show). Coldhands tells Sam that he can't pass, because of the magic in the Wall. Jon also loses touch with Ghost after he climbs the Wall and sends the wolf to find his own way around, only regaining their mental link when Ghost arrives at Castle Black and comes up to him. The Wall prevented Jon's powers from passing north of it.
The biggest issue so far with the series is that they keep taking away important moments when characters choose to do something (usually murder), but then make it an accident. The funny thing with blood and cheese is giving Helaena the appearance of a choice - but the murderers choosing their own victim - would've been way better then a direct choice from her. As for intent; Aemond should have killed Lucerys because he wanted to. These important character moments keep being undermined by 'accidents.'
Does nobody mention Damon specifically tells blood and cheese to kill the one with only a single eye, names him, and warns them he is a good fighter? He didn't say random son
He did ask what to do if they couldn’t find him. I don’t remember hearing the answer. Also they found the queen, they couldn’t exactly let them go and continue on
@@BodHopkins Blood & Cheese were talking about the head of "A SON". They never mentioned Aemond again. And they were overjoyed when they found the kids. So obvious that Daemon told them afterwards to kill "a son", it doesn't matter which one. They would get payed if they brought the head of "A SON", is also what they said.
It’s not about who has the seat of harrenhal. It’s about 1. Who wins the favor of the Tully’s as the whole of the river lands will follow and 2. The physical, geographical advantage of whoever gets control of it
The Riverlands’s won’t just side with whoever the Tully’s side with as the Tully name doesn’t have the same clout as the other great houses. They never ruled the Riverlands they were given it because they sided with the conquerer early on. The Brackens and Blackwoods generally won’t side together and as we will find out the the Riverlands and Reach will be torn apart by different families choosing opposing sides.
Olivia Cooke revealed that one 'animalistic' sex scene was cut from House Of The Dragon as she stunned in a sexy ELLE cover shoot on Monday. The actress, 30, who plays an adult Queen Alicent Hightower in House of the Dragon, said the 'messy as f**k' take was scrapped and admitted that while it wasn't a 'beautiful' scene it was 'really fun to do'.
I never read the books and I thought the blood and cheese was awesome and extremely disturbing. It left me feeling uneasy just like Luke’s death last season. I’m sure I’m not alone with that feeling.
@@brianb152 The question is if we would. If you stick to the book scene you now need child actors that can portray emotional reactions to the events as they happen. Child actors have always been problematic. With the scene now there is 1 less child actor, none of the kids have speaking lines and no hard directions to follow like " you have to look shocked when they say your mother wanted you to die" If you would have to choose between the version we now got in the show. Or A version closer to the books but everybody saying it was ruined by the bad child acting. What would you go for ?
@@edwinsuijkerbuijk5106who cares? Give me the version closest to the book. People have been using child actors for years that are accomplished. It’s far from impossible. They just didn’t have the guts to commit, just like they didn’t have the guts to make Luke’s death intentional. The show is clearly trying to tone down the shock and violence.
Stabbing a pregnant lady to death HBO: ✅ A boy, who’s one of Arya’s friends, got stabbed in a throat and choked in his own blood HBO: ✅ Burning an innocent child with greyscale as a blood sacrifice HBO: ✅ Having a spoiled brat choking and crying in his own blood after being poisoned HBO: ✅ A boy getting shanked to death by a zombie HBO: ✅ Hanging a boy because he helped stabbing Jon in the end of season 5 HBO: ✅ Poisoning a girl which caused her to die in her father’s arm HBO: ✅ Meanwhile, killing a boy in HOTD HBO: “Oh no! Child murder is wrong. This is too far. We have to self-censor this scene and end the episode with the tonal whiplash Alicent sex scene.”
No doubt the sensitivity readers came in & kyboshed Blood & Cheese. The whole thing also with Alicent banging Cristin, was unnecessary & it just reads like fan fic.
No that's not what they mean. They didn't want to show a child being decapitated on screen. As it would have traumatized the child actors. It makes sense. Because not everything is going to be 100% from fire and blood as that book is riddled with unreliable narrators.
With "Blood and Cheese" you talk about killing one or killing three, but the confusing part to me is that it doesn't seem to be about numbers. Daemon says "a son for a son", but he isn't talking about _just any_ son; he's talking about the Aemond, the one who killed Rhaenyra's son. He describes him as distinctively one-eyed and warns them he's a skilled fighter and hard to kill. Then they don't even bother trying to look for him specifically, and I'm not sure why.
I think Blood and Cheese was fine. As a book reader I do view it as a missed opportunity excluding the Sophie’s choice aspect. Overall it’s gruesome and effective enough to drive the plot forward. Guess will have to see since it is still episode one.
George has hinted that he has written over a thousand pages for Winds & Dreams....His problem is pulling all the story strands together without expanding it......I think Winds & Dreams will be released pretty close together.... Now thats positivity for you...........But do not sue me if I'm wrong.....lol
@@cosmictreason2242 like Gary said: the episodes cover very limited sections. So if George gives him the plotpoints he wants, he can make up the story.
As someone who comes from a culture where blood-feud was very common, "a son for a son" is perfectly logical to me. I understand Mauler is from England, but how many times have you listen "A life for a life" in literature or movies? That's what this is. You do not need to specify "do not kill anyone else", because it is already clear. Now, the switching of the child is a knife twist which I personally do not find very credible coming from Blood & Cheese (not impossible though) and I very much doubt they were instructed in advance to do that by Daemon. However, it makes for a very powerful and sad story. It's Sophie's choice with a twist, which plays a big role in Helaena's tragic story. I haven't seen the episode yet, but it would seem that the problem here derives from the show not following the book. When Helaena offers herself, at first, the assassins refuse because it had to be a son. It also had to be Aegon's son (Aemond wouldn't do, despite him being the killer,) because Rhaenyra lost a son, therefore Aegon must loose one too. From your conversation and depiction of the scene, I think they messed up this one. Pity. Re-Laenor, he is very much dead in the book, actually. There is no ambiguity about it because he was slain by his friend and his body was collected by his father. They would've recognised him because he was not burned. The whole thing happened in public and there were merchants present. It was a fair and the two were quarreling loudly and fought with blades. The only question in the book is about the motifs. According to Septon Eustace's version, Qarl killed him because he was jealous about another guy, but according to Mushroom's version, Qarl killed Laenor on behalf of Prince Daemon. There is not a single proof presented to back up his claim, so it's up to the reader which one they choose to believe. For me, it works either way. But as far as Laenor's death, there is no doubt, in the book. He was 100% dead. What they did in the show was a PC crap, IMO, because we can't have a black gay dead. So, let us send a Prince, the future Queen's husband, wander around Essos, without any wealth, with his gay lover. lol Meah...It was lame and I didn't care for it.
@@DianeCee57 I know the difference between England and Wales. Thank you. I just thought Mauler was from England based on some conversations I've heard in the past, Nerdrotic ref. England when it came to Mauler. Not sure how that make any difference in regards to my point, but thank you for that lil bit of information.
What made the scene unbelievable was how Helaena was so calm with her voice and how she moved while grabbing the kid, running away and going "The Killed the Boy." She showed more emotion when she tells Aegon "What if he doesn't want to be king?" The biggest excuse I hear us "She's autistic!" So apparently autistic people can't show emotions now? That is no excuse for how they took away her choice and made the whole scene underwhelming. What is the purpose of her being autistic to the plot aside from representing the viewer? You can have a character be quiet, strange, have her head in the clouds and still be upset at her own child being murdered. Being shocked and unable to process emotions didn't work.
She's dissociating on autopilot. She isn't calm at all, she's in shock and trying to keep breathing. Knowing autistic people they either snap or they shut down under extreme stress; in this scene she's focusing on just enduring the next 10 minutes. Between the way she thinks and how sheltered she's been her whole life without any practice standing up for herself, this is exactly how I expected her to react; froze silent and running for mom.
I disagree, it's an appropriate reaction. It could go either way and yes women tend to be more emotional than men, but there was nothing wrong with the way she reacted. She was in shock and she did not want to draw attention to herself for fear she might be killed next. I have an autistic nephew and he reacts very little to anything. It just depends on the person.
I have to say, overall great episode, but the actor for Jacaerys stole the show imo. Surprisingly powerful performance from such a young actor in just the few minutes he was in, especially the scene where he, despite just flying back from the wall after finding out his brother died, tried to fulfill his duty to the queen before allowing himself to seek comfort from his mother.
no they are definitely nukes. They are can wipe out a castle or an army within an hour and like a nuclear arsenal they are a deterent neither side can afford to make a move without careful planning and all tactics are planned around the movements of the dragons because if you leave an opening thats basically the end of the war. And like nukes/bombs they are indiscriminate and cannot be controlled once deployed they mention and it's shown in 1x10 that once the dragons go to war they cannot be called back.
@@moe5020 No, all that you said is more comparable to a gunship than a nuke. Now let's look at all the ways dragons *aren't* like nukes but are like gunships: Allowing people or supplies to travel on them, through the air. Being unreachable by conventional weaponry when airborne. They're not depleted once used. They require a constant supply of fuel/food to be usable. They are much MUCH more precise than nukes, you can target an alleway and have very little collateral. They are not a payload, they don't require a silo to be launched, they can park and attack from whenever they please. This also allows them to completely ignore defenses and obstacles such as walls, rivers, ravines, etc. Only thing that can counter them are other dragons/gunships or anti-air systems, like the scorpions mounted on the walls.
@@Neo2266. you're missing the point, it's not about superficial similarities the reason they compare them to nukes is because of how they influence decisions and the balance of power. If the greens lost vhagar for instance the war would instantly be over similare to how if russia lost their nukes there would be no cold war. There is also the disparity between the level of destruction they are capable of a no other weapon in asoiaf can level a city a dragon can do it easily similare to how a gunship is pathetic compared to the tsar bomba or something. Also you claim they are precise which is not true like I said similare to bombs they are indiscriminate, dragon fire burns insanely hot and will cause uncontrollable fires both in forests and cities if a dragon set an alley on fire that could very well just start an uncontrollable fire that dooms the whole city plus like I said once they start fighting dragons can't be recalled "when dragons go to war everything burns"
@@moe5020 I get that point and stopping at that point is missing all the other points of having a dragon, it's not just a threat, it has tons of other utilities and the threat is much more comparable to having a helicopter in Medieval times, calling it a nuke is incredibly reductive.
Loved the episode, but totally agree the Blood and Cheese scene was fumbled. They could have done SOO much more with that scene and still remained true to the books. Even if they had cut to black and cut the kids head off and we just had the audio....I don't know😂 ... think their hands were tied as you say. Such a legendary scene it's a shame for it to not give it the attention it deserved! But the rest I thought was good plot building and intrigue. Definitely made me excited for the rest of the season! Thanks again guys love these streams ❤
I think it might be for simple logistics reasons. Child actors are always a hassle. This way they have less child actors, no speaking lines for the child actors, and no hard directions to follow like " you have to look shocked when they say your mother wanted you to die"
28:14 There IS a way to salvage that, IDK what GRRM will do, but you could have it just be the fact that Dany IS "The Prince(ss) That Was Promised" & Drogon (or her dragons, in gen) are "Lightbringer" & that's why 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘺 could/would cross beyond the Wall, whereas all other dragons before them wouldn't. Have it be the traditional "The 'Chosen One' have a different set of rules" type thing.
Blood and Cheese was a big miss and disappointment. The rest of the episode was solid and good. I’m sure if this show was made in the 2010s we would’ve gotten a bigger shock factor and authentic version as the book details. I feel like it downplays the significance of this event but I’m sure episode 2 will lead on.
I really disliked this episode. The morning of Luke dragged. And the ability for the rat man to get through the castle and into the rooms at night so easily was bogus. Where were all the guards... no one's guarding the rooms... what...
Finally I found someone else who sees that! Everyone here is bitching about them changing how Helena choses the child to be killed, but no one mentions how the whole thing didn't make a lick of sense! No guards guarding the royal floor, no kingsguard guarding the queen and the heir to the throne. There is no way to justify this, especially since the greens know they're in an active conflict. Even if the books described the event the same, it's still shit.
@alexandersmatrala7641 yeah it's painful. There had to be some dialogue to explain they are short handed or something and maybe that could make it easier for them to get up there but once they get up there, there still should be guards at the doors... so maybe they have to talk there way around it. Idk. All I know is it was very convenient, which game of thrones in its prime never was.
Think about this: If the assassins were slightly more professional or had different motivations, they really could have killed the king. They are just allowed to walk through the throne room while the guy is drunk with his friends. If the assassins were black fanatics that did not care about their own lives or had the promise of money going to their families, they could have sacrificed themselves to finish Aegon while he was cornered on the Iron Throne. The whole assassin plot needed to be worked out a bit better.
Fans really overhyped the blood and cheese so it’s no wonder that it was a letdown. Even if they followed the book exactly it still would’ve been a let down to me I think
I avoided spoilers and enjoyed it thoroughly when it happened. Then I looked up the spoilers for the scene, and I'm glad they made the changes they made. I didn't need to see what happened in the book, and I'm disturbed so many book fans apparently wanted to.
If they followed the book exactly the child characters would have to do a lot more in the scene. And there would be a big chance it would be worse than what we got with the history of how bad child actors tend to be.
About an hour in, they've discussed the regicide: My question was that Daemon described Aemond. How were Blood and Cheese satisfied/confused with killing Jaeherys? Doesn't seem like anyone is mentioning that discrepancy.
Wasn't expecting a wild Frongol to appear, the Green Men rarely leave the Isle of Faces. I thought the episode was.... ok, solid setup but they totally softballed Blood & Cheese which was disappointing and could have negative impact on the rest of the season depending how they handle the aftermath. Did like how they introduced Cregan & I think he'll be popular if they don't botch him but still not sold on the Aegon actor, something about him just isn't clicking for me. Totally with Mauler on the Aemond actor, he's right up there with Matt & Rhys for me. It can never be as good as early Thrones because the source material is significantly weaker plus any show without Stannis is automatically lesser 😂
This is a show with 2 female leads and a diverse cast. Where are all the "toxic" fans putting it down? I thought we were all racist sexist homophobic assholes 😂😂😂
Blood & Cheese was a lot more darker in the book in comparison to what they showed in this episode. Also we got a name drop for Dalton Greyjoy aka the red kraken😈, and I hope we can see more scenes of the younger members of team black do their own plans. Because they are importent in the book an I just hope the writers remember that. And finally I'm patiently waiting to see if this is the season that we will get to see the lads of riverrun, or will they(the writers) save them for season 3.
Rhaenys' decision to not kill the Greens was very defensible. My initial reaction was WTF, but really, that's viewer-omniscience. We're thinking in terms of the inevitable war, and Rhaenys is still hoping to avoid that, as well as the fact that she's not 100% sure where she wants to come down. Yes, her granddaughters are betrothed to Rhaenyra's kids, but that's not set in stone. Corlys' survival is still in question, the Blacks aren't looking super strong at the moment. Aegon is crowned, and holds the throne. Rhaenyra has scant forces, only a lot of promises and theoretical loyalty, which as we see from Lord Baratheon, is not guaranteed. The Blacks can still lose this, and for Rhaenys and her family to get back in the good graces of the Greens is going to be a whole lot trickier if she has personally massacred a good chunk of the royal family. Beyond her and her family's political fortunes, we know from her talk with Alicent in the castle that she would prefer a peaceful solution. She says on Dragonstone that Alicent is the voice of peace and reconciliation on Team Green. She kills Alicent and the rest (and Ali made it clear that she's only getting to Aegon over his mother's body), the survivors of the Greens will have one less voice arguing for peace and additional motives for revenge. Also, and I should hope I don't need to argue this point, killing people is wrong. The people who died when she broke up through the floor were justifiable collateral damage - their deaths were not her aim, escape was. The responsibility for their deaths is all on the heads of the Greens, who herded people into the Dragonpit to witness the coronation and who ordered the main doors (the ones we see Rhaenyra using in the pilot episode) for departures, closed, and who told Rhaenys to her face that they were holding her at court. She was being kept against her will, she had every right to use necessary measures to free herself. Since she could not, presumably, get out through the big doors meant to keep dragons in, she went up through the ceiling into the audience room where the coronation was being held and the street-level doors were wide open. If the Greens are going to force people to come into the building and also try to lock her in, the deaths she causes trying to regain her rightful freedom are the Greens' fault. But all that justification goes out the window if she dallies to incinerate a bunch of people who are just standing there, watching, especially since Otto is the one calling for the doors to stay open. Otto is allowing her to go, he is not the one infringing on her moral rights at the moment. Pausing to eyeball them, to make sure they aren't trying to stop her, fine. Pausing to mass murder them, not so much. Finally, there is the point that going all dracarys on the dais would not have ended the fight. IIRC, Aegon's kids are not present, and Alicent had a third son by Viserys, Daeron, who was in Oldtown squiring for Lord Hightower, Otto's brother or nephew. And his dragon was with him. If Rhaenys wipes out Lord Hightower's brother & niece/uncle & cousin and Daeron's siblings, well, they are supermotivated now, and the Blacks are easily painted as the villains for her massacre.
Both the Greens and the Blacks are evil and supposed to be 'grey'. But to me it seems, from seaon 1 the writers have picked Rhaenyra as the hero with "the power of diversity" on her side and Alicent as the villain.
It's sort of the point that George wanted to point out the hypocrisy and misogyny of the Hightowers and maesters who write the histories. This is a patriarchal society. But I wouldn't say that any one "team" is seen as heroes or villains ultimately because thinks go downhill very quickly.
Gonna be defending the show on this. I think there are a lot of intentional subtleties in this iteration of Blood & Cheese that the people criticizing it are not giving it credit for. Firstly, the target originally being Aemond makes much more sense. If successful, his killing would cripple the Greens, whereas targeting the queen and the heirs would serve no practical purpose other than to antagonize them. Next up, I'd like to point out how deliberately this episode called attention to the power that the words of a king or royal hold. Otto tells it to Aegon, but the payoff is Daemon saying "a son for a son" and it coming to fruition in the most terrible way by two sloppy cutthroats chosing the most convenient option to make a quick buck. It's almost poetic and in a very similar vein to how Aemond accidentally ended up killing Luke. Very much in keeping with the theme of how some of the biggest escalations are sometimes the results of impulsive acts of vengeance that keep the war spiraling far out of anybody's control. Criston banging Alicent while it's happening is fucking dark. It was likely him shirking his guard duty to be with her that allowed B&C to succeed in the first place, and part of that guilt now rests on Alicent. Huge moment for her character that I expect will have massive consequences going forward. Now for some criticisms: Despite what I just said, the fact that there are no guards on the royal level whatsoever is a bit of a stretch. We are coming fresh of the Greens having murdered one of Rhaenyra's children and expecting retaliation. Now yes, they might not want common Household guards stationed with the Queen & heirs, and the Kingsguard is short a few members, but even if we are correct in assuming that it was Criston's watch that night (which I suppose will be up to Episode 2 to confirm), I think this episode should have had a scene explicitly stating that. That way, when we see he's not there the audience could have had a chance to put 2 and 2 together, or just turn Helaena walking in on him and Alicent into a small payoff. Little pieces like this clicking into place is something this show is very good at so it's a shame they missed this one. As Mauler already pointed out, it seems a bit odd that B&C would spend this much time trying to figure out which of the twins is the boy rather than just killing them both. There's a few ways to maybe explain this away, like the moment they take their attention away from Helaena she's gonna alert someone and they might not have time to get both their heads. Or they just don't wanna kill two kids, they're only just morally crooked enough to kill the one they need to get their reward. Neither of these are very strong excuses and I'd rather the show spent a bit more time working this out to be believable. Overall, I can't confidently say that this is better than the version in the book, but I do think it mostly works if you take it for what it is.
I wonder if this is the best they could do. If you would have to chose between then scene as we got it now, or a version closer to the book but everybody says it is spoiled by bad child acting what would you go for? They way they did it now you have 1 less child actors in the scene, non of the child actors have speaking lines and no hard directions to follow like " you have to look shocked when they say your mother wanted you to die"
@@edwinsuijkerbuijk5106is not about the children, is about the terror and emotion from Helaena and Alicent. Everybody loves Helaena and like Alicent. What happens to them is impactful. No child needed in that scene actually. Just the dialogue and psichological terror.
Heres my stance on the episode. I really liked it, especially the ending, but im let down not because the show didn't provide but the high ass standards that Ryan and Gary were creating since season 1s finale. Any time season 2 was brought up, they talked about the first episode being this great/grand thing thats gonna punch fans in the face. But it just ended up being a "subtle" (i say "subtle" conservatively) episode that takes place a couple days after the season finale with a few lines of drama happening. Based on ryan and garys talks, i thought the first episode was gonna have this giant dragon battle where a character the likes of Otto or Daemon or Aemon were gonna die. But it ended up being a character that was introduced in the very first episode of season 2. A character that had less than 3 min of screen time. The episode still holds weight for what it did to this character but it by no means reached what Ryan and Gary were communicating. And they tried shoving blame off of them by saying it was an adapation problem, as if they didn't consistently talk about a great thing was gonna happen in season 2 for however long, building expectations. Regardless of the overall quality of this show, i think gary and ryan hold some responsibility for how the fans feel with this episode. You guys directly communicate and even take pride in having control over fans in how they will or wont watch something. And now you dont want accountability for what you said about something after the fans feel let down? Yeah i dont think so.
I totally understand Maulers thoughts on the ending, and I'm glad Gary and Ryan gave a bit more background. However I disagree that what we got was somehow softer than what was written. It was shocking and very disturbing to hear the killing of a child. To be clear I'm basing my opinion on the episode and Ryan and Gary's telling of the book scene as I haven't read HotD.
The actual killing of Jaehearys was brutal but everything else was softer. No threats of rape, no taunting of Maelor because he doesnt exist and Helaena offers a necklace rather then her life.
Blood and Cheese was way more brutal in the books. When the assassins get to Helaena's chambers they tie her and Alicent up. They ask Helaena to pick which of her sons they kill- the 6 year old Jaehaerys or 3 year old Maelor. Jaehaerys was the main target from the get go (not Aemond), they only gave her the illusion of a choice to torture her. When she refuses to pick they threathen her with r*aping her 6 year old daughter so she picks Maelor, hoping he'd be too young to understand what is happening Blood then whispers into Maelor's ear "You hear that boy? Your mama wants you dead" and strikes off the head of Jaehaerys instead.
@galetinm It sounds like it was more brutal in the book. I guess what I really am saying is I don't think this was something that was going to set the internet on fire like Gary and Ryan were saying it would have. I definitely would like to have seen the book version though. Thanks for expanding on this it helps paint a clearer image for me. 👍
Once she started running with the other child, why wasn't she screaming bloody murder to alert all the guards in the castle. A final let down in a series where nothing is really going on, paricularly when you compare it to GOT.
Pretty sure Helaena did grab Maelor from the crib in the back corner of the room; the twins were side by side but while the guys were distracted we see Helaena go all the way to the other side of the room and grab baby from a covered crib. I read it as she couldn't help one son, but she could save the other son and hope that they leave the daughter alone. We even hear a kid crying in the room behind her later, that's the sister waking up. Unless I'm very mistaken.
I get the feeling that maybe Helaena did lie. Maybe for some reason she swaps Jaehaerys and Jaehaera. I'm just not certain why she would. He's the first born and heir, but I don't think Helaena really cares about any of that. Because earlier when they show Aegon coming to get Jaehaerys he realizes its Jaehaera, then later Blood and Cheese can't tell the twins apart. I don't think the writers put those scenes in for nothing. Something just seems off.
but the child actors looked completely different. 😂. and she did picked up the girl. i think that would be a interesting cliffhanger if they cast an actual twin. but unfortunately no. its Jahaerys who was being killed. quite obviously
That would be a massive change since the Dance is supposed to end with Rhaenyra/Daemon's son Aegon becoming king and marrying Jaehaera to seal the rift between the two sides.
Okay you can clearly see a baby’s crib right behind Haelena when Aegon is in the room, there’s a wide shot and it’s right behind her with the twins beds on the right of the screen
Mauler - you weren't supposed to know exactly what Daemon said, you were supposed to think they were looking for Aemond, not the son of the King, so it would be a shock (to us non readers)
I'm still concerned about where this could go, considering neither the actors nor producers seem to have any understanding of the characters in their own show (re: articles and video interviews), but I'll approach it with cautious optimism
Alicent and Rhaenyra made peace at the dinner before the king died. Then, every circumstance after wasn't because of them. That's why Alicent says his name in this episode. whereas her son killed Rhaenryas's son, so Rhaenrya is pissed off at everything. Two different mindsets. But the major point is they made peace with each other. Im surprised no one sees that.
Blood and cheese happened in the show in a way that would be sensationalized and telephoned into being the version we read. For that reason I love it. I love how they try to play off of book lore and their own take on things. I get being bummed out but my headcanon is the book version is the one the greens tell everyone what happened.
I think they're trying to make it seem like the beheading of the kid was a mistake. Like how Aemond killing the other kid was a "mistake" also. The war is escalating based on mistakes. Rhaenyra specifically asks for Aemond. Daemon tells the killers (in the show) they should kill Aemond. This is just another "what did you do?" Moment.
Except the killers ask Daemon what they should do if the can't find Aemond, and it then cuts away. The answer evidently was that any of the royal sons would do.
@gunnar6674 that's why we're lead to believe it was a mistake... 'cause we never see Daemon actually tell them what to do if they don't find Aemond. And Rhaenyra doesn't want kids killed, she wants Aemond. Like how we're lead to believe Aemond didn't want to kill the kid but it was the dragon that went rogue and didn't listen to his commands.
@@SygnusKain Based on Daemon's characterization and what Blood and Cheese say, I think it's quite clear that Daemon instructed them to kill any royal son if they couldn't fin Aemond, but it's pretty clear that Rhaenyra would't want that.
@gunnar6674 yeah, I believe in the books is clear what Daemon wants. I think it's clear Daemond wants to kill Rhaenyra's son also in the books. I think this is just what the show wants to do and is tell that the war escalated based on these "mistakes."
I expect Rheanyra to grill Deamon "you did this, didn't you?!" "I was fulfilling your revenge upon Aemond! Obviously" "Is that what you commanded? _Just_ Aemond and no one else?" ". . . _Wellllll....._ "
Alicent's sex scene really pissed me off, it was so unnecessary and to me was only there because HBO has to be the "adult" streaming service when its just gratuitous.
Eh, it's not the end of the world, but I agree. For me it was kicking the dog to make us hate that guy. I'm so sick of shows just throwing a dog in something to manipulate the audience. Overused trope at this point. Like Ryan said it kinda just shows the character's growth, or the moral decay. She just doesn't give a darn any more, she's going to enjoy some raunchy fun because the world is obvious madness.
@@Snow19867 In the book Alicent is taken hostage by B&C and forced to watch, turning it into her banging hotboi instead is just character assassination, both characters are meant to be prudish
@MorbidMind123 I know I've read F&B. I'm not trying to justify their choice of going down this write route, but they did tell us that we should view this as another version of the unreliable narrative. Some scenes are better in the book, some in the show. Pick and choose. I like both
The door wasn't locked because it doesn't need to be. It's royal chambers. That door isn't supposed to open unless you're invited in. Even the handmaids if told to go away, wouldn't just open the door until they were called on to come back.
My prediction for why they changed the Blood & Cheese from the book: to create a scenario where Aegon insists he wants to bear another male heir, and the Queen refuses and says your daughter is the heir. If there was still another living male heir, they wouldn't be able to create this tension.
Considering that the argument for Aegon's claim is based on the tradition of male primogeniture, that wouldn't really fly. If Maelor doesn't exist in the show, Aemond would be the heir.
I think it might be for simple logistics reasons. Child actors are always a hassle. This way they have less child actors, no speaking lines for the child actors, and no hard directions to follow like " you have to look shocked when they say your mother wanted you to die"
@@edwinsuijkerbuijk5106 Also imagine the trauma for a little kid even *pretending* that “his mother” wants him to die. Children under age 6-8 have a hard time distinguishing reality from fiction, so that could be severely traumatizing for that child.
@@SolarDragon007 this is true. Yet, the theme of this show... what they changed from the books already... Rhaenys being the sole contestant to the throne picked over for Viserys as opposed to the dozen candidates in the book... Rhaenyra & Alicent of course in all of it... adding a female heir of Aegon who could be his potential heir vs Aemond as 2nd in line... this would keep in line with the HBO theme they've established.
season 1 is 2.5 chapters of the book and was 75% accurate. also from this episode only Jace in the North, Otto and the last scene is accurate... it's funny how Aegon is replacing the only dude knowing what is to be done with a dog who'll do whatever he'll be asked...it's going to be poetic lmao.
The episode was a mixed bag for me, but I really disliked how they chose to adapt "Blood and Cheese". They squandered what could've been a scene as cruel and heartbreaking as the Red Wedding with the changes they made. No choice between the two sons, Helena's minimal reaction and her walking in on Alicent/Cole fucking all really diminished the emotional impact for me.
They could’ve done better. Red Wedding a pregnant lady was stabbed a bunch of times and they showed it. TWD had the Glenn death scene. They were just riding off people’s expectations which is what GOT had been doing the last couple seasons
Ending was abit weird, Haelana didnt seem too bothered to give up her son, but then again shes quite weird anyway but another fantastic episode. And i watched a breakdown video last year on the Rhaenees killing all those innocent people and apparently it is something that will come back up in the future
I think Helaena's autistic and when traumatic shit happens she shuts down and goes into autopilot. Her reaction this whole scene was exactly how I thought she would act. She's in shock
@@thunderbosz Funny because I thought she went and picked up a 3rd child; twins were side by side but while they're distracted we see Helaena go to the other side of the room behind them and grab toddler out of a different crib. Pretty sure that was the baby brother she was saving. We even hear some crying _after_ the deed was done that I assumed was the twin sister waking up
I was looking forward to this conversation! Need to say I loved this first episode of S2! IMO, it fulfilled what I was expecting of the show! How refreshing to enjoy a good produced show in the midst of all the shitty shows we are having! Awesome discussion guys! Keep it up and keep it coming!
Feels the same as the ending of Dune 2. Downgrade from the book, could be super cringe based on how they take it, or it could play out quite well if they're smart
They could easily do season 6 to 8 again in a new story. They can call it The Long Night and Beyond, or some dumb shit like that. Not focus so much on The Game of Thrones but we can get some stuff resolved in that story while telling more of the story after GoT ends.
I'm confused, I just watched a very well written, acted and filmed TV show which I thoroughly enjoyed while none of the actors or directors have have attacked me because of my skin colour or sex...
embrace It while u can. It will be a very rare experience In the future im afraid! 😢
Not well written when they race-swapped the Velaryons and completely fucked over the Targaryen bloodline. Aegon I is now Black. Jaehaerys is now Black. Alyssane is not Black. Viserys I is now Black.
They've cast an women to play a male Admiral. Except that woman is a MAN pretending to be female.
Wokest show on TV but apparently having a couple of good scenes makes it OK?
Never give them an inch! Fight the Culture War!
Give in to wank over dwagons!
Pathetic!
I just can't belive that anymore. You must be imaging it lol.
You know there are many out there who are fuming and plotting to try and change that, viz-a-viz the cast, the plot, the executives, via everything...
Is it GoT Season 1-3 good?
If yes i think i give it a chance.
A diverse cast, including a non-binary actor and gay characters, two women leads. But no discord about fans being bigots or racists. Interesting. It’s almost like everyone enjoys good shows and movies, regardless of who is on screen.
Diversity quota Corlys is still cringe af
thats because wokeness is becoming the norm
It fits the story tho @@proudsaiyanprince2651
@@proudsaiyanprince2651it was stupid that they made him black but the actor is quite good and his race doesn’t get mentioned. That’s enough for me but I understand why certain people just still can’t stand it like you.
@@proudsaiyanprince2651 I don't agree with the 'cringe' commentary, not sure where that is coming from. I don't follow any actor interviews or behind the scene stuff. Just let the product speak for itself. He is a good actor. The raceswap is what it is, and good on them for incorporating it into the story in an interesting way.
when they broke it down about house of the dragon season 1 costing around the same as the acolyte i had to check, under 20m per episode for 10 episodes for hotd and 180m for the acolyte which is going to be 8 episodes. Its actually insane the gap between these 2 shows and lucasfilm have the sheer fukin hubris to claim people hate the show cuz of sexism and racism
Also, HotD episodes are basically double the lenght of Acolyte's ones... so you have roughly 10 hours of content for HotD and barely four for The Acolyte. If you think about it, it's insane. Where the hell did they put all that money in Disney?
@@SemeyazaDisney has been money laundering via star wars since at least boba fett
@@Semeyaza And if anything in HotD it feels rushed. There is not a moment I'm left feeling like "cmon, get on with it".
The Chat - Mauler is spoiling it
Mauler - How can I?
Its nice having streams like this back 😂❤
I think they mean he's spoiling it by asking too many questions, so he puts Ryan and Gary in a though spot.
Ewan Mitchel is such a talented actor, looking at how he played Osferth in the Last Kingdom and then seeing how he plays Aemon in this displays so much range that not a lot of actors can pull off
*Aemond, I know it's difficult to keep track* He's spectacular to watch and try to peer into his thoughts.
They probably cast him as he’d already learned at least some sword craft in lady kingdom
Baby Monk yae
barely even recognized him
I am glad that they silently but surely distanced themselves from the GOT series by mentioning that the dragons refused to pass the Wall. It's book lore accurate now
Was that book lore? Did it say why they refused?
No , it didn't. Silverwing (Queen Alisans Dragon) actually flew past the Wall but returned shortly after , and that frightened the Queen because the dragon never refused an Order and Dragons aren't able to speak so ...🤷🏻♂️
@@christiankremer7440 You are lying. Silverwing refused to go over the wall. "Alysanne attempted on three occasions to fly Silverwing north beyond the Wall, but the dragon refused and veered south every time. Alysanne wrote to Jaehaerys that she was troubled by the fact that Silverwing refused to fly over the Wall, despite never refusing her commands previously. "
@@christiankremer7440what’s even cool is she played it off as the dragon was just tired or something cause the whole castle black was watching and she had to keep up the idea that she was in control
They're not distancing from GoT
Daenerys pass around the wall by eastwatch
14:28 To answer Mauler's question, in episode 10/S1, Rhaenys states she will personally patrol the blockade. She doesn't really give Rhaenyra a say or asks for permission. Based on that, Rhaenys would be unavailable & thus Rhaenyra sends Luke.
She chooses Storms End for Luke bc it's closer/short flight & she (wrongly) assumes he'll be met with fanfare & safe conduct, since they share blood.
She couldnt have known the Greens sent out Aemond/Vhagar to that same place & the BS that would ensue, which led to his death.
BOOK reasoning is probably simpler: It's just what Jace says earlier, "dragons fly faster than ravens," & so she sent her boys out.
She also didn’t account for the storm. If it was clear weather he would have seen vagar was already there and he would have been able to outrun her later
I could listen to Gary and Ryan about lore and all possibilities for hours. And especially when Ryan talks about lore. Hes awesome.
There was a shocking lack of guards outside of the queens quarters.
I assume since she’s fucking Criston Cole she told them to leave for some privacy
@@pbradics3670 This is a show about dragons leave ur realism in the back of ur mind
@@pbradics3670 Like I said the Queen obviously told them to leave as she needed privacy to hookup with Criston Cole
@rl8259 Nah this argument is dumb. Just because we have magic and dragons doesn't mean common sense in environments and situations need to be tossed out the window.
This argument never made sense to me. It's a cop out.
And this show has done a pretty good job on keeping the realism
In the book, Blood and Cheese had to kill two guards who were with the Queen. Honestly, though? Not a huge deal to me. None were with Alicent. So, two total - and no others near enough to hear.
But.... there are tons of guards in the Red Keep, it isn't insane for them to not all be standing around that high up in the Keep, in 'private area' of the royal family. However, there was one guard on duty in that area - Criston Cole.
In the Alicent / Criston bedroom scene (around 1:07:00) it’s also interested that two nights when Cole is on guard a major tragedy happens like with S1’s fight and Aemond looses an eye and now a child is dead
That is just a main character issue - if an unnamed guard is there, it's less likely to be important.
The power of Ryan! The Power of Mauler! The power of Garyyyyyyyyyyyyy😂
Hail!
😂
.....
The power of fringoid?
*loud moaning intensifies*
@@kwazhims3lfthe power of fringyyyyyyyyyy😂
the new episode sucked
Aemond telling criston Cole, the queen speaks with 2 tongues was priceless 😂
I "Oooooooh...!" 'ed.
The show is so good at setting up future plot points. I didn’t read the books but this franchise sets up stuff very well. The fact that this episode was about a page, is crazy.
it was not about a page m8... only the last scene is in the book, the rest is made up bs xD
correction, Cregan Stark "introduction" was also in the book.
@@jaxzorthat's what he means. They only used a page from the book
@@cosmictreason2242 yea..that's not accurate as well.
Still woke garbage and you do not see it
@@jaxzorthe book isn’t even accurate btw. Its a historical text written by (multiple different) biased accounts
The ease to which Blood and Cheese made it to the heirs was disappointing. The book made it so difficult...
.
I also hope that Cris was supposed to be on guard and that comes back to destroy both him and Alicent
1:10:15 I think Gary is wrong there, in the books Laenor was killed in a market square and they have his body. There is no ambiguity that he died, only the killer's motive is unclear.
And his lover disappeared at the same time so they assume he killed him sense he was a skilled knight
I mean there are ways to still make it make sense that Laenor is alive in the books but that would be a stretch
imagine having a show that good that there is an actual discussion stream about it after... to enjoy it as a community and celebrate it... and imagine telling everyone those exact guys can't like anything and only get joy out of hating stuff for clicks.... how dumb must they feel?
Well GRRM is a "problematic white guy" so they get to just not think about it
Establishing shots as they changed location/scenes were amazing
There is no way Aemond would admit that he lost control of the dragon. Cole is a simp & Alicent has now realised the men hold all the power & she’s at their mercy.
Kinda surprised you didn't have Dan Vasc here for the review as well.
We all know what a big fan he is of HotD.
Ya know, being ghey and all....
Haha it's just like when the people in the video says it!!! XD
Sorry for all the specific replies 😅 BUT Mauler 43:52 EXACTLY!! I rant about this in my video. The writing for Rhaenys reeks of "writer's clairvoyance". She does & says things in universe than make no sense other than the writer's want her to make these points.
& this extends to OTHER characters she interacts with (Rhaenyra & Alicent, mainly).
Not ONCE is she remorseful for her stupid stunt in the Dragonpit & she's so smug in episodes 9-10 & yet Alicent is all "you shouldve always been Queen over Viserys"; even Rhaenyra compliments her...even tho Rhaenys DOESNT bow (twice!) to acknowledge Rhaenyra as Queen. But it gets overlooked bc of reasons. 🙄
Daemon is the only one to truly call her out, but he cant ever get the "upperhand" bc the writer's wont allow it.
I admit that they are (hopefully) building up to a certain event regarding Rhaenys, but I maintain that it will depend on HOW they handle it/what context is it under...& considering how they fumbled B&C, I dont have high hopes.
B&C was well done in my opinion. I don't want to see a child being beheaded on tv, the sound alone is enough for me. Helena did good, pointing the boy was clever because as she guessed it will be too easy so they will go for the boy brilliant.
so you know the event coming up. and you're still mad about what they're doing with her character? i think it thematically makes sense.
@ashfordafful9300 It's still highly regarded compared to how the choice was done in the books.
Game of Thrones was the only intro I never skipped.
Its different too, despite being a second season, they came up with a decent riff on the iconic opening with the threads and the blood, where-as in GoT, it was pretty much the same Intro across every season.
@@StayFractalesque It's funny because they actually spoil some of the story beats in this new opening.
ENT is the only outro i never skipped
I never skipped Star Trek TNG
I never skipped the daredevil intro
They could've achieved the same effect of not actually showing the death but still had it be way more impactful if Helaena had to make the choice and chose Maelor who should've been there but then Cheese grabbed her, covered her mouth so she couldn't scream and was taunting her while Blood cut off Jaehaery's head instead. Just have the camera focus in on her face as we hear the sound effects similar to the scene from GoT where Ramsay "beds" Sansa and Theon looks on in horror.
29:12 There IS a godswood in King’s Landing because Sansa goes there to pray and that’s where Ser Dontos arranges her rescue.
No weirwood tree though if memory serves
Mauler talking about his dad is so real. My parents aren’t really into their lore and just watched the show as it came out no questions asked (honestly wouldn’t be surprised if they didn’t understand all of it) And even they were mega disappointed about how GOT ended
The set of this show is laughably, epically light years ahead of what other studios are putting out right now. And the writing is perfection. Not even a comparison.
The problem I often see in CGI is when huge creatures move around and don't shake the earth. That dragon crept down the hill, but the guards remained motionless.
A missed opportunity with Blood/Cheese, so many elements of what made that moment a MOMENT weren't present:
• Helaena's impossible CHOICE. If the writer's thought infanticide was the "shock value" of the Blood/Cheese moment, they're wrong & showing they don't understand the source material.
It was more about Helaena's choice, an impossible one for a MOTHER to make, but she's forced to do it, even after pleading for them to take 𝘩𝘦𝘳 life instead (something Show Helaena doesn't even offer to do??).
Even without Maelor, as the "spare", this moment as the show did it with just the twins could've hit harder if Helaena was forced to choose which one to sacrifice VS just point out which one is the boy 🙃
• I know it's been forever ago & most of us are blocking out GOT, but GOT had a scene with a mother/baby getting unalived. When Joffrey ordered all of Robert's bastards to be killed & one was a baby. They cut the scene, just showed us the mother's horrified reaction...
NO ONE in the fandom wants to actually see a child/baby unalived or beheaded. What's not seen is sometimes more powerful, same thing here. & I'm just pointing out GOT show has done this before & MORE (Burning Shireen, stabbing pregnant Talisa, ETC).
I get that we're going with Helaena is "different" or on the spectrum & she hasn't had a "normal" response to ANYTHING, if you watch her in S1...but still weird to not have her be more impacted in some way, esp since she "sensed" something would happen.
• Alicent not being present. This one is more minor overall. But it would've been the better call to have her gagged/bound & watching this unfold, helpless to stop it, as in the book. Alicent already feels uneasy, guilty & helpless over what Aemond did & this is a clear act of vengeance for it. It just reinforces for her all the "doom" she's complicit in bc she crowned Aegon.
Having her get dicked down by Criston instead feels disassociated from everything else going on.
Overall the episode was a 6/10, but it could've been a solid 8-9/10, if we had raised the stakes & stuck closer to the book/lore.
ALL of the ASOIAF books pull zero punches with its characters & events, it's a shame/disappointing the show does.
Absolutely spot on, this is an f-ed up world & it appears that the show runners/writers pulled their punches & it was a bad decision. They could have had one of the most talked about incident on TV in years. I mean no one talks about any show & this could have sent the show stratospheric but they blew it. You had 2 years of build up & even if most people did not know Blood & Cheese they still turned it into something that felt under-powered. Does not fill me with hope for the rest of the series. Saying the show is better than anything around is not a high bar any more.
she offered her necklace though.
I m seeing a lot this criticism from book readers, can you elaborate in what you mean when you say that haelena didn't have to make a choice? Because to me it seems that she had to make the choice, and she did when she indicated the boy. But I didn't read the books so maybe I lost some passages
@@lukedarks1272 She had to make a choice between her 2 sons. She chose the younger one because he wouldn't know what happens, but they end up killing the eldest son. Have a look at Alt Shift X's breakdown of the episode he explains what was supposed to happen in detail vs what the show did. The bone of contention is that what is written in the book is way better & far darker than the way the show did it which appeared diluted. Plus the show in s1 had rats in scenes & so many saw this as foreshadowing Blood & Cheese & they kind of bottled it.
Very well said. 👏
Ryan in the thumbnail is fucking hilarious 😂
Amazing
He's one of the very few people who can pull off a soyface
I didn't like the change they made with blood and cheese compared to the book. Don't get me wrong, it's still horrifying what happens, but it isn't as messed up as what happened in the books. Especially how it fks ups poor Helaena.
you must be sick in the head if you wanted to se a full of decapitation of a kid. ppl complaining that it wasnt traumatic enough must be gore lovers
We haven't seen the results of this scene yet, Although I myself did not have enough emotions from Heleina. Maybe she knew what would happen, but still
They chickened out
Nobody would like to see 6 years old baby getting rpd..but "remember, your mom chose you" line from cheese would be nice touch
It's a little disappointing, I get it. But I can understand show Helena not reacting the way book Helena did.
I liked the episode and 7/10 is a perfect rating, but I was a little dissapointed by the ending since I read the book. But I'm so excited to see the dragons and especially Vhagar and Vermithor in action. Looking forward to your reviews of the rest of the second season.
The impression I got when Helana pointed out her son was that she wasn't choosing. In her mind, she was just pointing at the one she knew they were going to kill. It's kind of a brian scramble as she wasn't sure it was real or a vision. I think they she needed more scenes in this episode to better establish her mental state before hand.
House of the dragon. Aegons conquest. Remake game of thrones.
Been saying it since hotd was announced
B&C was botched, and to me it shows how much damage the industry has suffered in ten years. There are just too many things interfering and meddling that prevent a good and faithful adaptation when it's needed.
Too many sensitivity readers & blue rinse types thinking the audience can't take really f-ed up stuff when everyone outside the wokesters on X loves that stuff.
@@DianeCee57 I just read a comment,in another video, saying "You're supposed to root for Rhae. And if she gave the order people wouldn't love her and taker her side." As if this story is supposed to be good guys vs bad guys, or a football match, with two teams that you have to pick sides.
@@saelind73Rhaenyra doesn't even order Blood and Cheese in the book, Daemon does. They didn't even have to make her look bad in that moment and they still pussied out on the scene.
What more do ya want, are they supposed to show them cutting off a kids head?, besides making her chose between the younger son & the heir… it was fine I thought
@billsmafia2473 I hated that they removed choosing between the two sons, how minimal they chose to make Heleana's reaction, and that they end the scene with her walking in on Cole/Alicent. They could've cut away from the act itself to Heleana screaming in horror/crying after seeing it happen.
Regarding the dragons not crossing the Wall, another implication is that they are magical creatures, and thus the power of the Wall holds them back from crossing. It was the same with Coldhands, the undead guy who brought Sam & Gilly back to the Wall and showed them the secret passage that only opens to a brother of the Night's Watch, which Sam then uses to send Bran, Hodor & the Reeds through, for Coldhands to escort to the cave of the Three Eyed Crow (whose great-grandparents are on the show). Coldhands tells Sam that he can't pass, because of the magic in the Wall. Jon also loses touch with Ghost after he climbs the Wall and sends the wolf to find his own way around, only regaining their mental link when Ghost arrives at Castle Black and comes up to him. The Wall prevented Jon's powers from passing north of it.
The biggest issue so far with the series is that they keep taking away important moments when characters choose to do something (usually murder), but then make it an accident. The funny thing with blood and cheese is giving Helaena the appearance of a choice - but the murderers choosing their own victim - would've been way better then a direct choice from her. As for intent; Aemond should have killed Lucerys because he wanted to. These important character moments keep being undermined by 'accidents.'
I agree with Helaena, but I kinda liked what they did with Lucerys.
Does nobody mention Damon specifically tells blood and cheese to kill the one with only a single eye, names him, and warns them he is a good fighter? He didn't say random son
He did ask what to do if they couldn’t find him. I don’t remember hearing the answer. Also they found the queen, they couldn’t exactly let them go and continue on
ah, you did mention it later. Ignore my comment :)
For sure. But these guys are idiots and the unanswered question is also in play
@@BodHopkins Blood & Cheese were talking about the head of "A SON". They never mentioned Aemond again. And they were overjoyed when they found the kids.
So obvious that Daemon told them afterwards to kill "a son", it doesn't matter which one. They would get payed if they brought the head of "A SON", is also what they said.
@blondymonk1535 mm. I thought maybe they were just so stupid and a bit stressed by the situation that they forgot the specifics
they didnt lock the door , now thats what i call EPIC Bad Luck
Ryan Velarion present, this is going to be good.
Blood and Cheese are the Merry and Pippin of Westeros
It’s not about who has the seat of harrenhal. It’s about 1. Who wins the favor of the Tully’s as the whole of the river lands will follow and 2. The physical, geographical advantage of whoever gets control of it
The Riverlands’s won’t just side with whoever the Tully’s side with as the Tully name doesn’t have the same clout as the other great houses. They never ruled the Riverlands they were given it because they sided with the conquerer early on. The Brackens and Blackwoods generally won’t side together and as we will find out the the Riverlands and Reach will be torn apart by different families choosing opposing sides.
Olivia Cooke revealed that one 'animalistic' sex scene was cut from House Of The Dragon as she stunned in a sexy ELLE cover shoot on Monday.
The actress, 30, who plays an adult Queen Alicent Hightower in House of the Dragon, said the 'messy as f**k' take was scrapped and admitted that while it wasn't a 'beautiful' scene it was 'really fun to do'.
Oh I would like to say that outtake!
I never read the books and I thought the blood and cheese was awesome and extremely disturbing. It left me feeling uneasy just like Luke’s death last season. I’m sure I’m not alone with that feeling.
I found it to be a lil underwhelming
We didn't need all the squelching...jeez
You would have enjoyed it more if they had stuck to the books version. This version was nothing compared to the impact of that
@@brianb152 The question is if we would.
If you stick to the book scene you now need child actors that can portray emotional reactions to the events as they happen.
Child actors have always been problematic.
With the scene now there is 1 less child actor, none of the kids have speaking lines and no hard directions to follow like " you have to look shocked when they say your mother wanted you to die"
If you would have to choose between the version we now got in the show.
Or
A version closer to the books but everybody saying it was ruined by the bad child acting.
What would you go for ?
@@edwinsuijkerbuijk5106who cares? Give me the version closest to the book. People have been using child actors for years that are accomplished. It’s far from impossible. They just didn’t have the guts to commit, just like they didn’t have the guts to make Luke’s death intentional. The show is clearly trying to tone down the shock and violence.
Happy Fathers Day and Fuck the WEF!
Stabbing a pregnant lady to death
HBO: ✅
A boy, who’s one of Arya’s friends, got stabbed in a throat and choked in his own blood
HBO: ✅
Burning an innocent child with greyscale as a blood sacrifice
HBO: ✅
Having a spoiled brat choking and crying in his own blood after being poisoned
HBO: ✅
A boy getting shanked to death by a zombie
HBO: ✅
Hanging a boy because he helped stabbing Jon in the end of season 5
HBO: ✅
Poisoning a girl which caused her to die in her father’s arm
HBO: ✅
Meanwhile, killing a boy in HOTD
HBO: “Oh no! Child murder is wrong. This is too far. We have to self-censor this scene and end the episode with the tonal whiplash Alicent sex scene.”
Hollywood is very fickle when it comes to what they think is appropriate.
Ahh, the good ole days
No doubt the sensitivity readers came in & kyboshed Blood & Cheese. The whole thing also with Alicent banging Cristin, was unnecessary & it just reads like fan fic.
Ending the scene with Heleana walking on Alicent and Cole having sex was such a stupid fucking change.
No that's not what they mean. They didn't want to show a child being decapitated on screen. As it would have traumatized the child actors. It makes sense. Because not everything is going to be 100% from fire and blood as that book is riddled with unreliable narrators.
I wanna see a Tywin story but showing the Reyne Tarbeck revolt
That would be great.
Call it Lannister
Follow Tywins exploits through the Ninepenny Kings and end it with the reynes of castemere.
haven't we learned? The writers need to be as intelligent as the characters they're writing
With "Blood and Cheese" you talk about killing one or killing three, but the confusing part to me is that it doesn't seem to be about numbers. Daemon says "a son for a son", but he isn't talking about _just any_ son; he's talking about the Aemond, the one who killed Rhaenyra's son. He describes him as distinctively one-eyed and warns them he's a skilled fighter and hard to kill. Then they don't even bother trying to look for him specifically, and I'm not sure why.
F's in the chat for 'good rat' meme reference
Bigideas would have liked it
Bigidious* @@crackbane1330
F indeed
Oretty obscure. What's the or l reference?
@@cosmictreason2242 efap 48 around the 39 minute mark
I think Blood and Cheese was fine. As a book reader I do view it as a missed opportunity excluding the Sophie’s choice aspect. Overall it’s gruesome and effective enough to drive the plot forward. Guess will have to see since it is still episode one.
George has hinted that he has written over a thousand pages for Winds & Dreams....His problem is pulling all
the story strands together without expanding it......I think Winds & Dreams will be released pretty close together....
Now thats positivity for you...........But do not sue me if I'm wrong.....lol
At this point IDFC. Ask Ryan Condal to complete the story. His screenwriting is very good so far.
@@jtomoshe's still only working with existing material to adapt though right
@@cosmictreason2242 like Gary said: the episodes cover very limited sections. So if George gives him the plotpoints he wants, he can make up the story.
@@jtomos well now you backtracked to saying George is needed. After saying ryan could do it without George (implicitly)
Basically he knows it's shit
As someone who comes from a culture where blood-feud was very common, "a son for a son" is perfectly logical to me. I understand Mauler is from England, but how many times have you listen "A life for a life" in literature or movies? That's what this is. You do not need to specify "do not kill anyone else", because it is already clear. Now, the switching of the child is a knife twist which I personally do not find very credible coming from Blood & Cheese (not impossible though) and I very much doubt they were instructed in advance to do that by Daemon. However, it makes for a very powerful and sad story. It's Sophie's choice with a twist, which plays a big role in Helaena's tragic story.
I haven't seen the episode yet, but it would seem that the problem here derives from the show not following the book. When Helaena offers herself, at first, the assassins refuse because it had to be a son. It also had to be Aegon's son (Aemond wouldn't do, despite him being the killer,) because Rhaenyra lost a son, therefore Aegon must loose one too. From your conversation and depiction of the scene, I think they messed up this one. Pity.
Re-Laenor, he is very much dead in the book, actually. There is no ambiguity about it because he was slain by his friend and his body was collected by his father. They would've recognised him because he was not burned. The whole thing happened in public and there were merchants present. It was a fair and the two were quarreling loudly and fought with blades. The only question in the book is about the motifs. According to Septon Eustace's version, Qarl killed him because he was jealous about another guy, but according to Mushroom's version, Qarl killed Laenor on behalf of Prince Daemon. There is not a single proof presented to back up his claim, so it's up to the reader which one they choose to believe. For me, it works either way. But as far as Laenor's death, there is no doubt, in the book. He was 100% dead.
What they did in the show was a PC crap, IMO, because we can't have a black gay dead. So, let us send a Prince, the future Queen's husband, wander around Essos, without any wealth, with his gay lover. lol Meah...It was lame and I didn't care for it.
Mauler is Welsh, just a tad different.
@@DianeCee57 I know the difference between England and Wales. Thank you. I just thought Mauler was from England based on some conversations I've heard in the past, Nerdrotic ref. England when it came to Mauler. Not sure how that make any difference in regards to my point, but thank you for that lil bit of information.
What made the scene unbelievable was how Helaena was so calm with her voice and how she moved while grabbing the kid, running away and going "The Killed the Boy." She showed more emotion when she tells Aegon "What if he doesn't want to be king?"
The biggest excuse I hear us "She's autistic!" So apparently autistic people can't show emotions now? That is no excuse for how they took away her choice and made the whole scene underwhelming.
What is the purpose of her being autistic to the plot aside from representing the viewer?
You can have a character be quiet, strange, have her head in the clouds and still be upset at her own child being murdered. Being shocked and unable to process emotions didn't work.
She's dissociating on autopilot. She isn't calm at all, she's in shock and trying to keep breathing.
Knowing autistic people they either snap or they shut down under extreme stress; in this scene she's focusing on just enduring the next 10 minutes. Between the way she thinks and how sheltered she's been her whole life without any practice standing up for herself, this is exactly how I expected her to react; froze silent and running for mom.
I disagree, it's an appropriate reaction. It could go either way and yes women tend to be more emotional than men, but there was nothing wrong with the way she reacted. She was in shock and she did not want to draw attention to herself for fear she might be killed next. I have an autistic nephew and he reacts very little to anything. It just depends on the person.
I have to say, overall great episode, but the actor for Jacaerys stole the show imo. Surprisingly powerful performance from such a young actor in just the few minutes he was in, especially the scene where he, despite just flying back from the wall after finding out his brother died, tried to fulfill his duty to the queen before allowing himself to seek comfort from his mother.
yeah his voice crack in that scene got me
I hate the comparison of dragons to Nukes. No, they're gunships. A normal dragon is like an Apache or a Hind, Vhagar is an AC130
no they are definitely nukes. They are can wipe out a castle or an army within an hour and like a nuclear arsenal they are a deterent neither side can afford to make a move without careful planning and all tactics are planned around the movements of the dragons because if you leave an opening thats basically the end of the war. And like nukes/bombs they are indiscriminate and cannot be controlled once deployed they mention and it's shown in 1x10 that once the dragons go to war they cannot be called back.
@@moe5020 No, all that you said is more comparable to a gunship than a nuke.
Now let's look at all the ways dragons *aren't* like nukes but are like gunships:
Allowing people or supplies to travel on them, through the air.
Being unreachable by conventional weaponry when airborne.
They're not depleted once used.
They require a constant supply of fuel/food to be usable.
They are much MUCH more precise than nukes, you can target an alleway and have very little collateral.
They are not a payload, they don't require a silo to be launched, they can park and attack from whenever they please.
This also allows them to completely ignore defenses and obstacles such as walls, rivers, ravines, etc.
Only thing that can counter them are other dragons/gunships or anti-air systems, like the scorpions mounted on the walls.
@@Neo2266. you're missing the point, it's not about superficial similarities the reason they compare them to nukes is because of how they influence decisions and the balance of power. If the greens lost vhagar for instance the war would instantly be over similare to how if russia lost their nukes there would be no cold war. There is also the disparity between the level of destruction they are capable of a no other weapon in asoiaf can level a city a dragon can do it easily similare to how a gunship is pathetic compared to the tsar bomba or something. Also you claim they are precise which is not true like I said similare to bombs they are indiscriminate, dragon fire burns insanely hot and will cause uncontrollable fires both in forests and cities if a dragon set an alley on fire that could very well just start an uncontrollable fire that dooms the whole city plus like I said once they start fighting dragons can't be recalled "when dragons go to war everything burns"
@@moe5020 I get that point and stopping at that point is missing all the other points of having a dragon, it's not just a threat, it has tons of other utilities and the threat is much more comparable to having a helicopter in Medieval times, calling it a nuke is incredibly reductive.
Loved the episode, but totally agree the Blood and Cheese scene was fumbled. They could have done SOO much more with that scene and still remained true to the books. Even if they had cut to black and cut the kids head off and we just had the audio....I don't know😂 ... think their hands were tied as you say. Such a legendary scene it's a shame for it to not give it the attention it deserved! But the rest I thought was good plot building and intrigue. Definitely made me excited for the rest of the season! Thanks again guys love these streams ❤
I think it might be for simple logistics reasons.
Child actors are always a hassle.
This way they have less child actors, no speaking lines for the child actors, and no hard directions to follow like " you have to look shocked when they say your mother wanted you to die"
@@edwinsuijkerbuijk5106 also very true! 👌🏼
Isn't it nice that a setup episode can generate a three-hour conversation instead of hours of vitriol bad writing causes? lol
28:14 There IS a way to salvage that, IDK what GRRM will do, but you could have it just be the fact that Dany IS "The Prince(ss) That Was Promised" & Drogon (or her dragons, in gen) are "Lightbringer" & that's why 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘺 could/would cross beyond the Wall, whereas all other dragons before them wouldn't.
Have it be the traditional "The 'Chosen One' have a different set of rules" type thing.
Blood and Cheese was a big miss and disappointment. The rest of the episode was solid and good. I’m sure if this show was made in the 2010s we would’ve gotten a bigger shock factor and authentic version as the book details. I feel like it downplays the significance of this event but I’m sure episode 2 will lead on.
Can you or someone explain what blood and cheese is?
@@MusashiHeadSplittablood and cheese is the two men “Rat Catchers”
@@MusashiHeadSplittaThe two assassins and it was different in the book, because Aegon had 3 children not 2 as they did in the show.
I think this is better for a Tv adaptation
Ya, the blood and cheese plot was so anti climactic that it kind of ruined the episode for me. 5.5/10 imo.
Ryan is great in this podcast. Really knowledgeable.
He really rounds out Gary and MauLer
blood and cheese was a pg-13 let down
I really disliked this episode. The morning of Luke dragged. And the ability for the rat man to get through the castle and into the rooms at night so easily was bogus. Where were all the guards... no one's guarding the rooms... what...
Finally I found someone else who sees that! Everyone here is bitching about them changing how Helena choses the child to be killed, but no one mentions how the whole thing didn't make a lick of sense! No guards guarding the royal floor, no kingsguard guarding the queen and the heir to the throne. There is no way to justify this, especially since the greens know they're in an active conflict. Even if the books described the event the same, it's still shit.
@alexandersmatrala7641 yeah it's painful. There had to be some dialogue to explain they are short handed or something and maybe that could make it easier for them to get up there but once they get up there, there still should be guards at the doors... so maybe they have to talk there way around it. Idk. All I know is it was very convenient, which game of thrones in its prime never was.
Think about this: If the assassins were slightly more professional or had different motivations, they really could have killed the king. They are just allowed to walk through the throne room while the guy is drunk with his friends. If the assassins were black fanatics that did not care about their own lives or had the promise of money going to their families, they could have sacrificed themselves to finish Aegon while he was cornered on the Iron Throne. The whole assassin plot needed to be worked out a bit better.
@@TheLeadhound and, additionally, the fact they let rat catchers come through tunnels without vetting them is kinda silly too.
@alexandersmatrala7641 especially at night like that lol.
Fans really overhyped the blood and cheese so it’s no wonder that it was a letdown. Even if they followed the book exactly it still would’ve been a let down to me I think
I avoided spoilers and enjoyed it thoroughly when it happened. Then I looked up the spoilers for the scene, and I'm glad they made the changes they made. I didn't need to see what happened in the book, and I'm disturbed so many book fans apparently wanted to.
@@fakecubedThe book scene is far better in terms of both logic and emotional impact.
If they followed the book exactly the child characters would have to do a lot more in the scene.
And there would be a big chance it would be worse than what we got with the history of how bad child actors tend to be.
@@edwinsuijkerbuijk5106 They would just have to look scared/confused.
@@SolarDragon007is it rly better in terms of logic though?
About an hour in, they've discussed the regicide:
My question was that Daemon described Aemond. How were Blood and Cheese satisfied/confused with killing Jaeherys? Doesn't seem like anyone is mentioning that discrepancy.
They literally explained their logic that they believed one son should be as good as another.
@@robbomegavlkafenryka6158 Okay, tone aside, I must have missed that part.
Wasn't expecting a wild Frongol to appear, the Green Men rarely leave the Isle of Faces.
I thought the episode was.... ok, solid setup but they totally softballed Blood & Cheese which was disappointing and could have negative impact on the rest of the season depending how they handle the aftermath. Did like how they introduced Cregan & I think he'll be popular if they don't botch him but still not sold on the Aegon actor, something about him just isn't clicking for me. Totally with Mauler on the Aemond actor, he's right up there with Matt & Rhys for me. It can never be as good as early Thrones because the source material is significantly weaker plus any show without Stannis is automatically lesser 😂
Been waiting for this.. What a year its been. The Acolyte, then HOTD...A perfect change.
This is a show with 2 female leads and a diverse cast. Where are all the "toxic" fans putting it down? I thought we were all racist sexist homophobic assholes 😂😂😂
This is a good group chemistry esp with the uncommon Fringy appearance
Blood & Cheese was a lot more darker in the book in comparison to what they showed in this episode. Also we got a name drop for Dalton Greyjoy aka the red kraken😈, and I hope we can see more scenes of the younger members of team black do their own plans. Because they are importent in the book an I just hope the writers remember that. And finally I'm patiently waiting to see if this is the season that we will get to see the lads of riverrun, or will they(the writers) save them for season 3.
Rhaenys' decision to not kill the Greens was very defensible. My initial reaction was WTF, but really, that's viewer-omniscience. We're thinking in terms of the inevitable war, and Rhaenys is still hoping to avoid that, as well as the fact that she's not 100% sure where she wants to come down. Yes, her granddaughters are betrothed to Rhaenyra's kids, but that's not set in stone. Corlys' survival is still in question, the Blacks aren't looking super strong at the moment. Aegon is crowned, and holds the throne. Rhaenyra has scant forces, only a lot of promises and theoretical loyalty, which as we see from Lord Baratheon, is not guaranteed. The Blacks can still lose this, and for Rhaenys and her family to get back in the good graces of the Greens is going to be a whole lot trickier if she has personally massacred a good chunk of the royal family.
Beyond her and her family's political fortunes, we know from her talk with Alicent in the castle that she would prefer a peaceful solution. She says on Dragonstone that Alicent is the voice of peace and reconciliation on Team Green. She kills Alicent and the rest (and Ali made it clear that she's only getting to Aegon over his mother's body), the survivors of the Greens will have one less voice arguing for peace and additional motives for revenge.
Also, and I should hope I don't need to argue this point, killing people is wrong. The people who died when she broke up through the floor were justifiable collateral damage - their deaths were not her aim, escape was. The responsibility for their deaths is all on the heads of the Greens, who herded people into the Dragonpit to witness the coronation and who ordered the main doors (the ones we see Rhaenyra using in the pilot episode) for departures, closed, and who told Rhaenys to her face that they were holding her at court. She was being kept against her will, she had every right to use necessary measures to free herself. Since she could not, presumably, get out through the big doors meant to keep dragons in, she went up through the ceiling into the audience room where the coronation was being held and the street-level doors were wide open. If the Greens are going to force people to come into the building and also try to lock her in, the deaths she causes trying to regain her rightful freedom are the Greens' fault. But all that justification goes out the window if she dallies to incinerate a bunch of people who are just standing there, watching, especially since Otto is the one calling for the doors to stay open. Otto is allowing her to go, he is not the one infringing on her moral rights at the moment. Pausing to eyeball them, to make sure they aren't trying to stop her, fine. Pausing to mass murder them, not so much.
Finally, there is the point that going all dracarys on the dais would not have ended the fight. IIRC, Aegon's kids are not present, and Alicent had a third son by Viserys, Daeron, who was in Oldtown squiring for Lord Hightower, Otto's brother or nephew. And his dragon was with him. If Rhaenys wipes out Lord Hightower's brother & niece/uncle & cousin and Daeron's siblings, well, they are supermotivated now, and the Blacks are easily painted as the villains for her massacre.
Both the Greens and the Blacks are evil and supposed to be 'grey'. But to me it seems, from seaon 1 the writers have picked Rhaenyra as the hero with "the power of diversity" on her side and Alicent as the villain.
Too early to tell really
It's sort of the point that George wanted to point out the hypocrisy and misogyny of the Hightowers and maesters who write the histories. This is a patriarchal society. But I wouldn't say that any one "team" is seen as heroes or villains ultimately because thinks go downhill very quickly.
bruh the blacks just committed baby murder how are they the heroes?
Gonna be defending the show on this. I think there are a lot of intentional subtleties in this iteration of Blood & Cheese that the people criticizing it are not giving it credit for.
Firstly, the target originally being Aemond makes much more sense. If successful, his killing would cripple the Greens, whereas targeting the queen and the heirs would serve no practical purpose other than to antagonize them.
Next up, I'd like to point out how deliberately this episode called attention to the power that the words of a king or royal hold. Otto tells it to Aegon, but the payoff is Daemon saying "a son for a son" and it coming to fruition in the most terrible way by two sloppy cutthroats chosing the most convenient option to make a quick buck. It's almost poetic and in a very similar vein to how Aemond accidentally ended up killing Luke. Very much in keeping with the theme of how some of the biggest escalations are sometimes the results of impulsive acts of vengeance that keep the war spiraling far out of anybody's control.
Criston banging Alicent while it's happening is fucking dark. It was likely him shirking his guard duty to be with her that allowed B&C to succeed in the first place, and part of that guilt now rests on Alicent. Huge moment for her character that I expect will have massive consequences going forward.
Now for some criticisms:
Despite what I just said, the fact that there are no guards on the royal level whatsoever is a bit of a stretch. We are coming fresh of the Greens having murdered one of Rhaenyra's children and expecting retaliation. Now yes, they might not want common Household guards stationed with the Queen & heirs, and the Kingsguard is short a few members, but even if we are correct in assuming that it was Criston's watch that night (which I suppose will be up to Episode 2 to confirm), I think this episode should have had a scene explicitly stating that. That way, when we see he's not there the audience could have had a chance to put 2 and 2 together, or just turn Helaena walking in on him and Alicent into a small payoff. Little pieces like this clicking into place is something this show is very good at so it's a shame they missed this one.
As Mauler already pointed out, it seems a bit odd that B&C would spend this much time trying to figure out which of the twins is the boy rather than just killing them both. There's a few ways to maybe explain this away, like the moment they take their attention away from Helaena she's gonna alert someone and they might not have time to get both their heads. Or they just don't wanna kill two kids, they're only just morally crooked enough to kill the one they need to get their reward. Neither of these are very strong excuses and I'd rather the show spent a bit more time working this out to be believable.
Overall, I can't confidently say that this is better than the version in the book, but I do think it mostly works if you take it for what it is.
All on how they contextualize it in the next episode
They should've just called this episode Sophie's Choice.
Son for a son was kinda spoilery in the title. I would have preferred just to call it Blood and Cheese. I'm surprised they didn't honestly.
It's 9.37am on Monday 17th June in the UK & there are 521k posts on HotD.
I liked the episode, but the Blood & Cheese scene was a big flop. Underwhelming knowing what it should have been.
I wonder if this is the best they could do.
If you would have to chose between then scene as we got it now, or a version closer to the book but everybody says it is spoiled by bad child acting what would you go for?
They way they did it now you have 1 less child actors in the scene, non of the child actors have speaking lines and no hard directions to follow like " you have to look shocked when they say your mother wanted you to die"
@@edwinsuijkerbuijk5106is not about the children, is about the terror and emotion from Helaena and Alicent. Everybody loves Helaena and like Alicent. What happens to them is impactful. No child needed in that scene actually. Just the dialogue and psichological terror.
Heres my stance on the episode. I really liked it, especially the ending, but im let down not because the show didn't provide but the high ass standards that Ryan and Gary were creating since season 1s finale. Any time season 2 was brought up, they talked about the first episode being this great/grand thing thats gonna punch fans in the face. But it just ended up being a "subtle" (i say "subtle" conservatively) episode that takes place a couple days after the season finale with a few lines of drama happening. Based on ryan and garys talks, i thought the first episode was gonna have this giant dragon battle where a character the likes of Otto or Daemon or Aemon were gonna die. But it ended up being a character that was introduced in the very first episode of season 2. A character that had less than 3 min of screen time. The episode still holds weight for what it did to this character but it by no means reached what Ryan and Gary were communicating.
And they tried shoving blame off of them by saying it was an adapation problem, as if they didn't consistently talk about a great thing was gonna happen in season 2 for however long, building expectations. Regardless of the overall quality of this show, i think gary and ryan hold some responsibility for how the fans feel with this episode. You guys directly communicate and even take pride in having control over fans in how they will or wont watch something. And now you dont want accountability for what you said about something after the fans feel let down? Yeah i dont think so.
I totally understand Maulers thoughts on the ending, and I'm glad Gary and Ryan gave a bit more background.
However I disagree that what we got was somehow softer than what was written. It was shocking and very disturbing to hear the killing of a child. To be clear I'm basing my opinion on the episode and Ryan and Gary's telling of the book scene as I haven't read HotD.
I forgot to mention that the scene should have ended with the beheading sounds.
Why tho?
The actual killing of Jaehearys was brutal but everything else was softer. No threats of rape, no taunting of Maelor because he doesnt exist and Helaena offers a necklace rather then her life.
Blood and Cheese was way more brutal in the books. When the assassins get to Helaena's chambers they tie her and Alicent up. They ask Helaena to pick which of her sons they kill- the 6 year old Jaehaerys or 3 year old Maelor. Jaehaerys was the main target from the get go (not Aemond), they only gave her the illusion of a choice to torture her. When she refuses to pick they threathen her with r*aping her 6 year old daughter so she picks Maelor, hoping he'd be too young to understand what is happening Blood then whispers into Maelor's ear "You hear that boy? Your mama wants you dead" and strikes off the head of Jaehaerys instead.
@galetinm It sounds like it was more brutal in the book. I guess what I really am saying is I don't think this was something that was going to set the internet on fire like Gary and Ryan were saying it would have. I definitely would like to have seen the book version though. Thanks for expanding on this it helps paint a clearer image for me. 👍
Once she started running with the other child, why wasn't she screaming bloody murder to alert all the guards in the castle. A final let down in a series where nothing is really going on, paricularly when you compare it to GOT.
It's so good to be back!
Pretty sure Helaena did grab Maelor from the crib in the back corner of the room; the twins were side by side but while the guys were distracted we see Helaena go all the way to the other side of the room and grab baby from a covered crib.
I read it as she couldn't help one son, but she could save the other son and hope that they leave the daughter alone. We even hear a kid crying in the room behind her later, that's the sister waking up. Unless I'm very mistaken.
That completely whooshed over my head. I think you might be right.
Pretty sure we see the daughter with Helaena after she enters Alicents room. The kid in her hand is Jaehaera.
@@govinddas7876 idk they all look the same, you're probably right
@@samwallaceart288 I'm still hoping Maelor is present but I'm convinced that was the same actress for Jaehaera
I get the feeling that maybe Helaena did lie. Maybe for some reason she swaps Jaehaerys and Jaehaera. I'm just not certain why she would. He's the first born and heir, but I don't think Helaena really cares about any of that. Because earlier when they show Aegon coming to get Jaehaerys he realizes its Jaehaera, then later Blood and Cheese can't tell the twins apart. I don't think the writers put those scenes in for nothing. Something just seems off.
I doubt it. Jaehaerys died in the original source material at this point as well.
Remember though that she told Alicent and Cole that they "Killed the boy"
She tell the truth hoping they would think she lied and go for the girl but the rat guy saw trough her attempt to lie
but the child actors looked completely different. 😂. and she did picked up the girl. i think that would be a interesting cliffhanger if they cast an actual twin. but unfortunately no. its Jahaerys who was being killed. quite obviously
That would be a massive change since the Dance is supposed to end with Rhaenyra/Daemon's son Aegon becoming king and marrying Jaehaera to seal the rift between the two sides.
Okay you can clearly see a baby’s crib right behind Haelena when Aegon is in the room, there’s a wide shot and it’s right behind her with the twins beds on the right of the screen
glad someone else noticed!
Mauler - you weren't supposed to know exactly what Daemon said, you were supposed to think they were looking for Aemond, not the son of the King, so it would be a shock (to us non readers)
Yes I was confused, I thought Daemon sent them to kill Aemond
Aemond was the primary target, but they get into it - the way they cut away from the conversation when they ask "What if we can't find Aemond".
In the first season, she also said Aemon would close an eye for his dragon. 2:25:59
I'm still concerned about where this could go, considering neither the actors nor producers seem to have any understanding of the characters in their own show (re: articles and video interviews), but I'll approach it with cautious optimism
It's so cool to be able to have a positive discussion about a show. I've missed this.
Finally some good fucking tv
yeah right
There is no such thing as good TV any more.
@Opener73 You need to get a life and learn to enjoy things
@Opener73copy and paste
@Opener73 That slop is getting to your head and it's stopping you from enjoying when something good comes out
Alicent and Rhaenyra made peace at the dinner before the king died. Then, every circumstance after wasn't because of them. That's why Alicent says his name in this episode. whereas her son killed Rhaenryas's son, so Rhaenrya is pissed off at everything. Two different mindsets. But the major point is they made peace with each other. Im surprised no one sees that.
Blood and cheese happened in the show in a way that would be sensationalized and telephoned into being the version we read. For that reason I love it. I love how they try to play off of book lore and their own take on things. I get being bummed out but my headcanon is the book version is the one the greens tell everyone what happened.
That's a good save on it. For me it really just depends on how they contextualize it in the next episode
Yep, book scene is Alicent's version of what happened I guess.
I think they're trying to make it seem like the beheading of the kid was a mistake. Like how Aemond killing the other kid was a "mistake" also. The war is escalating based on mistakes. Rhaenyra specifically asks for Aemond. Daemon tells the killers (in the show) they should kill Aemond. This is just another "what did you do?" Moment.
Except the killers ask Daemon what they should do if the can't find Aemond, and it then cuts away. The answer evidently was that any of the royal sons would do.
@gunnar6674 that's why we're lead to believe it was a mistake... 'cause we never see Daemon actually tell them what to do if they don't find Aemond. And Rhaenyra doesn't want kids killed, she wants Aemond. Like how we're lead to believe Aemond didn't want to kill the kid but it was the dragon that went rogue and didn't listen to his commands.
@@SygnusKain Based on Daemon's characterization and what Blood and Cheese say, I think it's quite clear that Daemon instructed them to kill any royal son if they couldn't fin Aemond, but it's pretty clear that Rhaenyra would't want that.
@gunnar6674 yeah, I believe in the books is clear what Daemon wants. I think it's clear Daemond wants to kill Rhaenyra's son also in the books. I think this is just what the show wants to do and is tell that the war escalated based on these "mistakes."
I expect Rheanyra to grill Deamon "you did this, didn't you?!"
"I was fulfilling your revenge upon Aemond! Obviously"
"Is that what you commanded? _Just_ Aemond and no one else?"
". . . _Wellllll....._ "
Alicent's sex scene really pissed me off, it was so unnecessary and to me was only there because HBO has to be the "adult" streaming service when its just gratuitous.
Eh, it's not the end of the world, but I agree. For me it was kicking the dog to make us hate that guy. I'm so sick of shows just throwing a dog in something to manipulate the audience. Overused trope at this point. Like Ryan said it kinda just shows the character's growth, or the moral decay. She just doesn't give a darn any more, she's going to enjoy some raunchy fun because the world is obvious madness.
Why? Criston Cole was supposed to be doing his duty and guarding the queens room but nah, he ain't no honorable knight!
@@Snow19867 In the book Alicent is taken hostage by B&C and forced to watch, turning it into her banging hotboi instead is just character assassination, both characters are meant to be prudish
@MorbidMind123 I know I've read F&B. I'm not trying to justify their choice of going down this write route, but they did tell us that we should view this as another version of the unreliable narrative. Some scenes are better in the book, some in the show. Pick and choose. I like both
@@Snow19867 I thought this was meant to be a definitive "True" version of events compared to the unreliable narration of the book
The door wasn't locked because it doesn't need to be. It's royal chambers. That door isn't supposed to open unless you're invited in. Even the handmaids if told to go away, wouldn't just open the door until they were called on to come back.
My prediction for why they changed the Blood & Cheese from the book: to create a scenario where Aegon insists he wants to bear another male heir, and the Queen refuses and says your daughter is the heir. If there was still another living male heir, they wouldn't be able to create this tension.
Considering that the argument for Aegon's claim is based on the tradition of male primogeniture, that wouldn't really fly. If Maelor doesn't exist in the show, Aemond would be the heir.
But in the books he never names Jaeheara heir even after Maelors death, instead its his nephew.
I think it might be for simple logistics reasons.
Child actors are always a hassle.
This way they have less child actors, no speaking lines for the child actors, and no hard directions to follow like " you have to look shocked when they say your mother wanted you to die"
@@edwinsuijkerbuijk5106
Also imagine the trauma for a little kid even *pretending* that “his mother” wants him to die. Children under age 6-8 have a hard time distinguishing reality from fiction, so that could be severely traumatizing for that child.
@@SolarDragon007 this is true. Yet, the theme of this show... what they changed from the books already... Rhaenys being the sole contestant to the throne picked over for Viserys as opposed to the dozen candidates in the book... Rhaenyra & Alicent of course in all of it... adding a female heir of Aegon who could be his potential heir vs Aemond as 2nd in line... this would keep in line with the HBO theme they've established.
season 1 is 2.5 chapters of the book and was 75% accurate.
also from this episode only Jace in the North, Otto and the last scene is accurate...
it's funny how Aegon is replacing the only dude knowing what is to be done with a dog who'll do whatever he'll be asked...it's going to be poetic lmao.
The episode was a mixed bag for me, but I really disliked how they chose to adapt "Blood and Cheese". They squandered what could've been a scene as cruel and heartbreaking as the Red Wedding with the changes they made. No choice between the two sons, Helena's minimal reaction and her walking in on Alicent/Cole fucking all really diminished the emotional impact for me.
They could’ve done better. Red Wedding a pregnant lady was stabbed a bunch of times and they showed it. TWD had the Glenn death scene. They were just riding off people’s expectations which is what GOT had been doing the last couple seasons
Stop dragon my heart around!
Ending was abit weird, Haelana didnt seem too bothered to give up her son, but then again shes quite weird anyway but another fantastic episode. And i watched a breakdown video last year on the Rhaenees killing all those innocent people and apparently it is something that will come back up in the future
I think Helaena's autistic and when traumatic shit happens she shuts down and goes into autopilot. Her reaction this whole scene was exactly how I thought she would act. She's in shock
I mean she did the smart thing the son was gonna die anyways so she saved her daughter and moved out without saying anything
@@thunderbosz Funny because I thought she went and picked up a 3rd child; twins were side by side but while they're distracted we see Helaena go to the other side of the room behind them and grab toddler out of a different crib. Pretty sure that was the baby brother she was saving. We even hear some crying _after_ the deed was done that I assumed was the twin sister waking up
Hail King Aegon!
Team Green all day!
I was looking forward to this conversation! Need to say I loved this first episode of S2! IMO, it fulfilled what I was expecting of the show! How refreshing to enjoy a good produced show in the midst of all the shitty shows we are having! Awesome discussion guys! Keep it up and keep it coming!
The way the handled blood and cheese will certainly affect the show.
In a week maybe a month tops most will forget it.
Feels the same as the ending of Dune 2. Downgrade from the book, could be super cringe based on how they take it, or it could play out quite well if they're smart
They could easily do season 6 to 8 again in a new story. They can call it The Long Night and Beyond, or some dumb shit like that. Not focus so much on The Game of Thrones but we can get some stuff resolved in that story while telling more of the story after GoT ends.