I like to imagine that Melian and Thingol had at least one conversation were Thingol complained how Beren, a human, is beneath marrying an elf such as Luthien and Melian simply give him *the Look* .
It's hard not to feel a little bit sorry for Melian: always deferring to her hotheaded and less-wise husband, knowing at least somewhat of the future but resigned to their roles as Instruments of Divine Purpose™.
@@GirlNextGondor Particularly as concerns Lúthien and the Silmaril. I'm sure she knew intuitively he was making a big mistake although I doubt even she grasped how devastating the consequences would be.
I loved how she would usually go and counsel whomever Thingol just hastily shunned or rejected and would take them aside like, “hey so I can’t really say this in court but here’s the real deal…”
Considering that Gandalf seems to be able to feel genuine friendship, I have no doubts that Maiar are able to feel human emotions. So I see no problem in Melian being genuinely interested Elu Thingol.
I think she certainly felt deep affection for him, as well as the more 'disinterested' sacrificial love she displays. And Ainur definitely show pretty relatable emotions -- even the 'great Valar' that don't get entangled in their bodies. I do suspect, though, that 'falling in love' doesn't necessarily come naturally to them, as it does to Elves and Men - so perhaps this was one of the few times that Thingol had some idea of just what was going on, and Melian had to follow *his* lead.
@@GirlNextGondor I don't think I agree, Even the Valar seem to fall in love, Manwe and Varda, Aulë and Yavanna and soforth, I think that Melian did fall in love completely and utterly but also tragically, The tale is in some ways mirrored in Aragon and Arwen later.
@@GirlNextGondor I think her love was larger and more extensive than what a mere mortal would feel. Sensing the future she doesn’t just love the man she marries, but all the people who will come out of this relationship. Her own self literally flows into her children, like saurons self flowed into the ring and melkors self flowed into arda. So when she makes the decision to be with this elf, she marries this future with all their descendants. It must be weird to be a being who sees time differently than mortals.
@@Anacronian all we know is that they were together in some sense, its not like their stories are put forth as some great love stories were they "fall in love". I imagine it being ALOT less "emotions" that humans put into a relationship between them...and i would argue that something like that happens during all the years THingol and Melian just stands in silence ...discovering each others souls and minds. After all their "love story" produces one shild and no more.
Let's not forget Melian's secondary key role of teaching a certain electrum-haired Noldor princess all manner of lore, wisdom, for lack of a better word magic through a large chunk of the age, before she and her Sindar husband went over the blue mountains before the War of Wrath got started. That wound up kind of important too, and even found itself getting repeatedly entangled with Luthien's line. Also, I find it amusing how little anyone in or around Doriath acknowledges (or even knows) that Thingol is literally the Lost King of the Teleri, equal in rank of Finwe and thus whichever descendant of Fingolfin is High King at any given time. And I cannot recall his reaction (as secretly the Lost King of the Teleri), to word of the first Kinslaying and Feanor's Big Beach Boat Barbecue. I feel like that probably should've come up somewhere.
It did come up. Thingol found out about the kinslaying after Melian's shrewd questioning and assumptions to Galadriel about why they left Valinor and Galadriel told her enough, omitting the Oaths of Feanor, kinslaying and burning of the ships and he confronted Galadriel's brothers angrily who then narrated everyrhing that transpired and he then banned the use Quenya in all of Baleriand and never liked the house of Feanor. He does respect the house of Finarfin and Fingolfin for the wrongs they faced themselves. There was still a distrust with sons of Feanor though. And he does boast about his status being of the awaken and having beeb the only Sindar to have seen the light of the two trees. Still alot I omitted but I suppose this answers ur question atleast.
If she was allowed to return to valinor, Melian and Thingol were probably reunited. Only Luthien truly left the world. That's probably a big part of why she left middle earth.
At least Melian married an immortal Elf, who even after death cant leave the Arda entirely. In fact, it might have been that after Thingol's death they may had the chance to meet again in The Undying Lands.
Whenever I'm reading these quotes and see that Melian was the fairest of the Maiar and Thingol was the tallest of all the children of Illuvatar. It just makes me think that the elves were spinning a good tale for Bilbo and using a bit of hyperbole.
There's definitely what Tolkien called a 'fairy-tale' quality to the Thingol and Melian story. I'd like to think it's a combination of good storytelling, and authorial biases - I can imagine debates breaking out in the Hall of Fire: "How do you *know* she was the fairest of the Maiar, she was the only one *you* lot ever saw?! "--Look. this is *my* story, and besides you filthy kinslayers weren't even allowed into Doriath so how would you know?" "Turgon was pretty tall, is there anyone here who's seen Turgon AND Thingol? I mean, Galadriel would know, but she refuses to tell anyone...." Bilbo furiously scribbling notes the whole while.... 🤣
@@GirlNextGondor I wasn't suspecting to read the funniest piece of fanfiction in this whole year in the comments on youtube, and here we are. Nienna's blessings upon ye Lexi, as always the best readings and understanding of Tolkien's work.
Melian: Wait a minute you know you do realize that having a Silmaril would literally get us into beef with Feanor's kids right? Thingol: Come on honey its not like this will cost me my own life or lead to the destruction of our own Kingdom am I right? ( Years later in Valinor ) Melian: Dont tell me I didnt warn you 😑 Thingol: THATS BECAUSE YOU DIDNT WARN ME ABOUT THOSE F@CKIN DWARVES! 🤬 😅
All cool until the greedy dwarves came and offed Thingol over some jewels, which Melian might have known about or not. Doriath got screwed then and there without her Girdle. Besides, their grandson was a KID and managed to down 3 of Fëanor's Boys. Some badass family there.
@@pedrovargas2181 he downed three of Fëanor's boys _after they saw fit to ambush him in the middle of the night._ Five of the mightiest and most Doom-driven desperate elves working together, and Dior killed three while disadvantaged before he fell. Truly this was the mightiest of all the children of Eru Ilúvatar. Had the Sons faced him fairly on the field of battle I don't think all five of them together could have withstood him but for the Doom of their oath.
Oh yay! So happy to see this again! I've never really thought of Melian knowingly sacrificing herself for the incarnates. That probably makes her the greatest hero of Middle Earth, since she's giving up her very nature... 😳
4:10 I was just rewatching this video and found this line funny. Of course Thingol is no slouch, he was tallest in stature of the children of Illuvatar.
Thanks GNG, as ever you go to the heart of things, Tolkiens hopeless romanticism is reflected in that of his characters. I know that he viewed his wife as being far above him. She waited long for him, only to be almost immediately ripped asunder by the horrors of war. Why she loved him he never could explain to himself. Sounds familiar right. Even though Melians love for a lesser being is the strangest as you say. It is perhaps the easiest to understand if not explain. She senses the part their love plays in the music and becomes hooked by it. He is simply dazzled, awed and literally knocked out by her. Thanks and keep up the good work.
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it! I think that comes out particularly in his earliest work, stuff he was writing during the passionate early days of his engagement (and after their long separation). A lot of optimism and bewitching women 🤣
As always fantastic. I love your take on this relationship. I think I was too hard on Melian after Thingol's death and the lost of her daughter. While Thingol would go to the Halls of Mandos, Luthien wouldn't. Like her mother, she made a choice to tie her life to the one she loved. And to think that from the beginning Melian would have had some vague understanding, if not full knowledge, of the grief she would have to endure. And then! realizing that she most likely was holding back the whole time her full state is also challenging. She made a lot of sacrifices to be with Thingol and to protect Arda and the Firstborn. Again, great video always enjoy.
So glad to hear that, thank you! 🥰 I think Melian's marriage exemplifies the phenomenon of caring very deeply for someone you're well aware is flawed, but being able to see the worth in them anyway. Particularly when he's the king of an entire people, and so your responsibility is not just to him but to an entire civilization. 😬
I believe her choice was thus: she followed the prompting of Eru, not knowing its end but having faith, and, finding love, chose love. It was a free willed choice, set in motion by her openness to Providence and wisdom.
I would think Melina would only become chief of the Istari after the death of Thingol. Her very unique love for the children of Eru makes her the perfect prototype for the Wizards. As you say, her role seems much more important to be a just a rouge “sprite” Maiar. Tolkien’s love story’s are the best, and this is my favorite one. Love your content!!
Appreciate that! I agree, she seems to important to simply fade into obscurity after her main 'task' was fulfilled. Maybe she took on a consultancy role in Valinor....
It seems to me that incarnation is one of those circumstances where the experience is profoundly different from the expectation. In this instance there is a mighty gulf between knowing and being. If wearing the forms of the Children was a sign of love from the Ainur, then incarnation is the evidence of the commitment that love (or obsession if you’re a Dark Lord) compels. Perhaps after her commission was fulfilled, her husband murdered , her daughter forever parted from her, and so many of her people slain over jewelry, Melian just let go and her spirit fled West for healing and many many counseling sessions with Nienna. So glad Gondor has called you back! This video was as good the second time as it was the first. Thanks for reloading. Amazing work!
I can see it going a few ways, I think with no reason to hang on to her body Melian would have dropped it *if she were still able*; maybe she went back to Valinor to seek healing but I can also see her taking a 'gap year' to wander around with no one depending on her for a change. Appreciate the rewatch, glad you enjoyed it (again)!
The point about the stars suggesting she was open to divine inspiration is significant. She had a choice, and she chose to follow that inspiration, and in so doing played a most pivotal role in the music.
Lovely stuff. The power dynamic between these two must have been truly mind-boggling. -What did you do today, Mel? -I created a giant magical barrier to protect our lands. Yourself? -....ehm thinking of asking some Dwarves to do the place up.
Oh wow!!! your interpretation of Melian is so well done!!! Having never read beyond the silmarillion, I alwys thought Melian was selfish to have left after Thingol's death.....but your explaination makes so much sense!!!! Gifted herself indeed!!!! It makes sense why she allowed half the things Thingol did .......... also, i believe when the Eru and the spirits sand the great song of creation, Melian had a forsight of what may the future be - but she still went ahead and roamed in Arda to encounter Thingol - So 3k years of love for eternity of loniless seems fair?
I had a similar thought. Perhaps Melian foresaw her love with and marriage with Thingol as an integral part of the Music. And having entered Arda, though not able to remember all of the details of the vision of the Music, had a distant memory or desire toward Middle Earth, which led her to wander through it knowing something desirable or epic was destined to happen while there. And who is to say that she did not meet Thingol after his years or ages of waiting in the Halls of Mandos were fulfilled and he was rebodied in Valinor?
You're very welcome! I think she deserves more attention; she opposed Morgoth in a way similar to Galadriel's later resistance to Sauron for centuries. That alone is impressive!
The idea that Melian and the Istari were in Middle-Earth in the early 1st Age to aid the elves is an interesting one. When exactly did they first show up to aid the elves? Was it the same 5 Maia we know from later? And perhaps most relevant to this tale, how did Melian and Thingol not meet much earlier? I also wonder what might have happened had the Valar not invited the elves to come to Valinor? As I understand it, if it wasn't for the discord of Melkor, the elves were supposed to remain in Middle-Earth for good while to serve as mentors to men. As an aside, I wonder what happened to balrogs when they were slain in combat. They were Maia after all yet there is nothing I have found saying anything about what happened to them afterwards. With the elves not knowing if they would have an existence beyond Arda but understanding that men did, it brings to my mind some parallels with one of my favorite novels, Childhoods End by Arthur C. Clarke. The Overlords who came to Earth were well advanced beyond humans yet they had inherent limitations that prevented them from eventually going where humans would go.
Excellent, invaluable take on this pairing. I have trouble focusing on the romantic ingredient of these stories, and as you rightly point out, that was very important to Tolkien. I notice your tendency -- and why not? -- to focus on the distaff side of the union, as here you offer great commentary about Melian, while Thingol plays an almost walk-on part. I notice this perhaps because my take on Thingol is quite negative, or, at least, quite critical. His mistakes play a crucial role throughout the First Age, and I think most people only notice the mistakes of Elu Thingol that Tolkien chose to emphasize; but his statecraft included many errors that Tolkien described only indirectly. For example, his policy of freezing out the Noldor was probably related to his pre-Noldor policy of trying to get all Sindar to bend the knee to his rule, and I think Tolkien left it largely unspoken that Thingol was furious that the advent of the Noldor in the North queered the pitch for Thingol to get the Northern Sindar to bend the knee to him. That's just an example; his constant teleological errors when protecting his borders, offering strings-attached sanctuary to guests, withholding desperately needed assistance to his neighbors, giving away (and then imprisoning, and then losing) his only child, fostering a human boy, claiming the greatest Noldor heirloom, welshing on his trade deals, and so on, paid out a steady stream of fascinating and tragic consequences. I think Thingol was based in some ways on Louis XIV. He was his people's "Sun King," as he would have been the first to tell you (albeit only from the visit to Valinor, and reflection from the face of his wife, and even then, really only until the real Sun came along). He held himself out as king of everyone and source of all prosperity. He surrounded himself with an infamously vicious court. And, of course, it's almost unbelievably easy to imagine Elu Thingol telling his people, "Après moi, le déluge" (or, in my execrable Sindarin, "Cad nin i hlaw"), and so it proved, for him as well as Louis.
If this whole thing gets a little too depressing, just be sure to always recall that Thingol's brotherwho lived with him was called Elmo. Just have him come in and ask innocent questions in the third person, and suddenly things seem less dark.
@Girl next Gondor. I feel as though I have stumbled into a dream not unlike Beren’s, after hjs wanderings in the wild coming upon the beautiful Luthièn. Hearing your voice telling the accounts of Tolkien’s earliest works in regard to this particular love story is melting the frost from my heart, soothing my weary soul and reviving my hope in humankind. Thank you for this comprehensive and satisfying historical record of Thingol and Melian. I will wait for you in the undying lands… -Beren
One could make the argument that Melian quite literally put a part of herself in Luthian and when Luthian died, a similar fate as the one that happened to Sauron happened to her.
Yay! A remake of a great video! Love your all your works Lexi! Especially since this is a topic about Melian & Thingol, along with her 'Ring' Luthien! X)
I mean, one of the things about the Rings is that to make one, you have to let your power pass out of your control... and Little Miss Luthien undergoes a teenage rebellion of staggering proportions 😂 Glad you enjoyed the remake, good to see you in the comments as ever!
Elu Thingol is a great character. He was of the 1st Elves to awaken in middle earth. His name was originally Elwe. He was called to Valinor. He left his people and found Melian the Maiar. He was Graymantle. A great King. His daughter as you know was Luthien Tinuvil. The 1st great love between men and Elves. Next to King Ellesar Tuor is my favorite character. He is counted among the elves in Valinor. Thanks for doing Elu Thingol Graymantle.
Oh , sorry I forgot to mention. That Tuor is one of the few men that has a direct interaction with the Valar. You know that Turin Turinbar is a 1st cousin of Tuor and the cross each other ioutside Gondolin. They do not know who each other is.. I don't know if you ever did Tuor.
I'd like to believe that Thingol and Melian met again after his reincarnation and that she now dwells with him in the Undying Lands, awaiting the reunion with her daughter that will come after the world ends. But to give the Children of the Valar some credit, they weren't very short-lived. They lasted from the 1910s up to around 1950, even after the Maiar as a group were invented.
I always thought that their story is kind of like an angel coming to earth, desiring to know more about life. And I think that's beautifull. (Two in a row? Now you are just spoiling us. :)
"and she knew that her parting from Thingol was the forerunner of a greater parting, and that the doom of Doriath was drawing nigh." "and she vanished out of Middle-earth, and passed to the land of the Valar beyond the western sea, to muse upon her sorrows in the gardens of Lórien, whence she came, and this tale speaks of her no more." Doesn't sound like she's tied into a body. Sounds like she knew her time was over in Doriath and she took her spirit form back and went returned to Valar however it was that the incorporeal traveled back and forth. (I've never really been clear on that. Did it take time? Was it instantaneous? Sometimes it feels like their incorporeal selves have to physically cover the distance and sometimes it seem like they could just appear where they wanted to.)
Yes, Tolkien is all monotheistic with Eru. Yet, I never could help to see the semblance between the Ainur and the Greek pantheon. Manwe is Zeus, Ulmo Poseidon, Varda Hera, Mandos Hades, Aule Hephaistos, and so on. And what is the most defining attribute of that lot? Their all-too human passions. Zeus making Melian look quite chaste. Finally, didn't Tolkien even state at some point, that it was his aspiration to be a western Europe Homer?
Definitely - I can think of one letter in particular (131 to Milton Waldman) where he goes in some depth on both his myth-making aspirations and the way the Valar/Ainur are an attempt to create a polytheistic-style pantheon in a world that was still vaguely monotheistic. The early versions of the Valar, while still quite respectable compared to other pantheons, are quite a bit more rambunctious than their later evolutions, and the idea that Melian would just wander off and take an Elven lover doesn't feel nearly as anomalous in the context of the early legends 🤣
Bless you Lexi! We are blessed with these uploads 💎✴ As always, you enhance every bit of knowledge and master all aspects of delivery! And once again, like in the Aegnor and Andreth video, you allow the tale's depth to raise greater realizations regarding the whole legendarium. In a way, Melian's fate is bittersweet, even if at the moment it seems more bitter. At least the knowledge that the true music will occur at some point can be comforting.
It's like the difference between the meadow of flowers and the plain of sulphur.Tolkien is a true artist, therefore he is romantic. There is a hateful, ugly, miserable, spoiled world, without romance
I love your Tolkien love stories series! Fantastic work! I wonder if you've thought about doing a video about the less-than-perfect "love" story of Aldarion and Erendis in Unfinished Tales? It may be a nice contrast later on. Cheers!
It seems like a recurring theme in Tolkien's romances - barring, perhaps, Faramir and Éowyn, whose relationship stemmed more from a mutual healing together - that the woman is of a special sort of existence that makes her the very greatest treasure in her man's life, no matter what else he has. Beren and Lúthien, Aragorn and Arwen that echoed them, and here Thingol and Melian, are the notable examples. Thingol was a king, one of the first kings at that, and had beheld the light of the Two Trees in all of their resplendent glory; yet, once he had met the Maia that would become his wife, even the splendor of Valinor paled in comparison. Although, of course, he was the one among these who might be called a failure, as his cold bitterness towards Beren would bring upon him a doom that separated him from his wife and lay all that he had to ruin. Aragorn was a man of destiny, the rightful heir of two thrones, a descendant of many valorous champions and not lesser in strength or courage than any of them, and yet the kingships of his ancestry were a goal he pursued so that he might have Elrond's blessing to marry Arwen. His love for her, more than anything else, was the thing that spurred him to become the very greatest man he could be, so that he might by some measure be worthy of her. And, of course, Beren, friend of the King Finrod and warrior skillful enough to amass a price on his head equal even to Fingon, the High King of the Noldor. In the years he spent as a harrier against Morgoth, he deemed capture a fearsome prospect when even death held not the same status; but once he had met Lúthien, fairest child of Ilúvatar that ever lived, he was willing to brave Angband itself in pursuit of the right to marry her. Though he was but one man, weary and ill-equipped from treacherous journeys and innumerable battles, sent on what all knew to be a suicide mission, there was no mountain he would not move or storm he would not weather for the sake of the woman he loved. Of course, the true beauty of that story is that they eventually sought and won their happiness together, rather than one being a prize for the other, but this has already been quite the text wall even as I've only looked at the men's perspective. I believe all of this is telling of the deep and unflappable love that Tolkien had for his own wife, of the sort that I aspire towards should I ever be blessed with marriage and that I think many others should aspire towards as well.
Hey , yes probably elves are required to sail to tol erasia ( Avalon) but middle earth to balar to avolon makes sense but as a maia she is allowed to go to valinor , also dead elves go to the halls of mandos and can be reincarnated, and she and thingol could be reunited.
@@shanenolan8252 Yes, they will be reunited eventually, but it depends on how Namo weighs Thingol's actions that caused his death. If he was an innocent victim, he should get reembodied sooner.
@@shanenolan8252 But I think Lexi made a point that Melian had used a lot of her power, so I wasn't sure if she could shed her hroa and just fly in her ëala to the Undying Lands. Also, if she shed it, could she reembody with that same hroa in Valinor? Because I am guessing that she wants to be reunited with Thingol, HUT maybe she has a "been there, done that" attitude.
I've glanced over "The Hoard" but not well enough, I'm afraid, to form a strong opinion. I've also heard there's some books out there that detail some of Christopher's editorial process, particularly with reference to some later versions of Thingol's death that would give a pretty different flavor to his story.... Something I'd be interested in exploring for sure!
I've always especially enjoyed this series, and while I learn from all your videos, the Love Stories videos contain some of your most interesting insights. I had never bothered to look up the meaning of her name, and when you talk about it at th-cam.com/video/0TMlQArAL2c/w-d-xo.html - well, this bit of information was like the keystone in an arch of understanding her story - everything just 'sturdily fit into place'. When I tell people you are one of the best at showing how to tie collections of moments of story and background information together to create a deeper understanding of Tolkien's world - it's this moment, in this video, that is in my mind. One last item: there’s nothing from Tolkien to support this, but I like to think that Melian was following “the music” in marrying Thingol, and that Eru approved it. Therefore, after Thingol’s death, Melian would have (thanks to Eru’s mercy) the ability to change from her incarnate form, that this power wasn’t lost to her. But that, out of love for husband and daughter, she retained her incarnate form even though she didn’t have to. Again, no writing from JRRT supports this, but such a thought satisfies me the most.
Melian provides a wonderful counterpoint to how Morgoth and Sauron wield power. Whereas their power subjugates, Melian's enables (eg the girdle). Whereas they corrupt life with the intent to control their offspring, she creates life with the intent to allow her offspring agency - even knowing full well things aren't going to be great for them. The Sin of Creation is partially tied to the intent of the creator, and Eru couldn't have selected many better than Melian to be the initial creator of the ripples that play out over the next ages Now if only there was video analyzing The Sin of Creation 😁
*cough cough* yes if only someone had explored that topic in excessive detail 🤣 Been reading a lot about Orc Origins lately and the topic of procreation - I agree that Melian is a foil for Morgoth (and thus it's fitting that her daughter's the one to serve Morgoth a well-earned humiliation) but I really need to dig into Aule as a foil as well - he starts out on a project very similar to Morgoth's but his repentance allows Eru to redeem the Dwarves and give them life.
I like to imagine that Melian and Thingol had at least one conversation were Thingol complained how Beren, a human, is beneath marrying an elf such as Luthien and Melian simply give him *the Look* .
It's hard not to feel a little bit sorry for Melian: always deferring to her hotheaded and less-wise husband, knowing at least somewhat of the future but resigned to their roles as Instruments of Divine Purpose™.
Though I'm not entirely unsympathetic to Thingol, I do feel sorry for her. It seems her patience was tested on many levels.
@@GirlNextGondor Particularly as concerns Lúthien and the Silmaril. I'm sure she knew intuitively he was making a big mistake although I doubt even she grasped how devastating the consequences would be.
Yes, and losing her daughter Forever had to be difficult to heal from. I am sure spent a long time in Lorien healing after the loss of her family.
I loved how she would usually go and counsel whomever Thingol just hastily shunned or rejected and would take them aside like, “hey so I can’t really say this in court but here’s the real deal…”
But would Thingol not be reincarnated in Valinor, so she would see him again at least?
Considering that Gandalf seems to be able to feel genuine friendship, I have no doubts that Maiar are able to feel human emotions. So I see no problem in Melian being genuinely interested Elu Thingol.
I think she certainly felt deep affection for him, as well as the more 'disinterested' sacrificial love she displays. And Ainur definitely show pretty relatable emotions -- even the 'great Valar' that don't get entangled in their bodies.
I do suspect, though, that 'falling in love' doesn't necessarily come naturally to them, as it does to Elves and Men - so perhaps this was one of the few times that Thingol had some idea of just what was going on, and Melian had to follow *his* lead.
@@GirlNextGondor I don't think I agree, Even the Valar seem to fall in love, Manwe and Varda, Aulë and Yavanna and soforth, I think that Melian did fall in love completely and utterly but also tragically, The tale is in some ways mirrored in Aragon and Arwen later.
@@GirlNextGondor I think her love was larger and more extensive than what a mere mortal would feel. Sensing the future she doesn’t just love the man she marries, but all the people who will come out of this relationship. Her own self literally flows into her children, like saurons self flowed into the ring and melkors self flowed into arda. So when she makes the decision to be with this elf, she marries this future with all their descendants. It must be weird to be a being who sees time differently than mortals.
@@Anacronian all we know is that they were together in some sense, its not like their stories are put forth as some great love stories were they "fall in love". I imagine it being ALOT less "emotions" that humans put into a relationship between them...and i would argue that something like that happens during all the years THingol and Melian just stands in silence ...discovering each others souls and minds. After all their "love story" produces one shild and no more.
Let's not forget Melian's secondary key role of teaching a certain electrum-haired Noldor princess all manner of lore, wisdom, for lack of a better word magic through a large chunk of the age, before she and her Sindar husband went over the blue mountains before the War of Wrath got started. That wound up kind of important too, and even found itself getting repeatedly entangled with Luthien's line.
Also, I find it amusing how little anyone in or around Doriath acknowledges (or even knows) that Thingol is literally the Lost King of the Teleri, equal in rank of Finwe and thus whichever descendant of Fingolfin is High King at any given time. And I cannot recall his reaction (as secretly the Lost King of the Teleri), to word of the first Kinslaying and Feanor's Big Beach Boat Barbecue. I feel like that probably should've come up somewhere.
Gave you a 'Like' just for "electrum-haired". If I could give you two or three more for "Fëanor's Big Beach Boat Barbecue", I would. 😂
It did come up. Thingol found out about the kinslaying after Melian's shrewd questioning and assumptions to Galadriel about why they left Valinor and Galadriel told her enough, omitting the Oaths of Feanor, kinslaying and burning of the ships and he confronted Galadriel's brothers angrily who then narrated everyrhing that transpired and he then banned the use Quenya in all of Baleriand and never liked the house of Feanor. He does respect the house of Finarfin and Fingolfin for the wrongs they faced themselves. There was still a distrust with sons of Feanor though. And he does boast about his status being of the awaken and having beeb the only Sindar to have seen the light of the two trees. Still alot I omitted but I suppose this answers ur question atleast.
If she was allowed to return to valinor, Melian and Thingol were probably reunited. Only Luthien truly left the world. That's probably a big part of why she left middle earth.
Didn't she returned to Aman though? If that's the case, you'd be right since Thingol eventually got re-embodied.
At least Melian married an immortal Elf, who even after death cant leave the Arda entirely. In fact, it might have been that after Thingol's death they may had the chance to meet again in The Undying Lands.
Whenever I'm reading these quotes and see that Melian was the fairest of the Maiar and Thingol was the tallest of all the children of Illuvatar. It just makes me think that the elves were spinning a good tale for Bilbo and using a bit of hyperbole.
There's definitely what Tolkien called a 'fairy-tale' quality to the Thingol and Melian story. I'd like to think it's a combination of good storytelling, and authorial biases - I can imagine debates breaking out in the Hall of Fire: "How do you *know* she was the fairest of the Maiar, she was the only one *you* lot ever saw?! "--Look. this is *my* story, and besides you filthy kinslayers weren't even allowed into Doriath so how would you know?" "Turgon was pretty tall, is there anyone here who's seen Turgon AND Thingol? I mean, Galadriel would know, but she refuses to tell anyone...."
Bilbo furiously scribbling notes the whole while.... 🤣
@@GirlNextGondor I wasn't suspecting to read the funniest piece of fanfiction in this whole year in the comments on youtube, and here we are. Nienna's blessings upon ye Lexi, as always the best readings and understanding of Tolkien's work.
Melian: Wait a minute you know you do realize that having a Silmaril would literally get us into beef with Feanor's kids right?
Thingol: Come on honey its not like this will cost me my own life or lead to the destruction of our own Kingdom am I right?
( Years later in Valinor )
Melian: Dont tell me I didnt warn you 😑
Thingol: THATS BECAUSE YOU DIDNT WARN ME ABOUT THOSE F@CKIN DWARVES! 🤬
😅
Oh sure, blame the dwarves 😅
All cool until the greedy dwarves came and offed Thingol over some jewels, which Melian might have known about or not. Doriath got screwed then and there without her Girdle.
Besides, their grandson was a KID and managed to down 3 of Fëanor's Boys. Some badass family there.
@@pedrovargas2181 he downed three of Fëanor's boys _after they saw fit to ambush him in the middle of the night._ Five of the mightiest and most Doom-driven desperate elves working together, and Dior killed three while disadvantaged before he fell. Truly this was the mightiest of all the children of Eru Ilúvatar. Had the Sons faced him fairly on the field of battle I don't think all five of them together could have withstood him but for the Doom of their oath.
Oh yay! So happy to see this again! I've never really thought of Melian knowingly sacrificing herself for the incarnates. That probably makes her the greatest hero of Middle Earth, since she's giving up her very nature... 😳
4:10 I was just rewatching this video and found this line funny. Of course Thingol is no slouch, he was tallest in stature of the children of Illuvatar.
Thanks GNG, as ever you go to the heart of things, Tolkiens hopeless romanticism is reflected in that of his characters. I know that he viewed his wife as being far above him. She waited long for him, only to be almost immediately ripped asunder by the horrors of war. Why she loved him he never could explain to himself. Sounds familiar right. Even though Melians love for a lesser being is the strangest as you say. It is perhaps the easiest to understand if not explain. She senses the part their love plays in the music and becomes hooked by it. He is simply dazzled, awed and literally knocked out by her. Thanks and keep up the good work.
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it! I think that comes out particularly in his earliest work, stuff he was writing during the passionate early days of his engagement (and after their long separation). A lot of optimism and bewitching women 🤣
As always fantastic. I love your take on this relationship. I think I was too hard on Melian after Thingol's death and the lost of her daughter. While Thingol would go to the Halls of Mandos, Luthien wouldn't. Like her mother, she made a choice to tie her life to the one she loved. And to think that from the beginning Melian would have had some vague understanding, if not full knowledge, of the grief she would have to endure. And then! realizing that she most likely was holding back the whole time her full state is also challenging. She made a lot of sacrifices to be with Thingol and to protect Arda and the Firstborn. Again, great video always enjoy.
So glad to hear that, thank you! 🥰
I think Melian's marriage exemplifies the phenomenon of caring very deeply for someone you're well aware is flawed, but being able to see the worth in them anyway. Particularly when he's the king of an entire people, and so your responsibility is not just to him but to an entire civilization. 😬
I believe her choice was thus: she followed the prompting of Eru, not knowing its end but having faith, and, finding love, chose love. It was a free willed choice, set in motion by her openness to Providence and wisdom.
I would think Melina would only become chief of the Istari after the death of Thingol. Her very unique love for the children of Eru makes her the perfect prototype for the Wizards. As you say, her role seems much more important to be a just a rouge “sprite” Maiar. Tolkien’s love story’s are the best, and this is my favorite one. Love your content!!
Appreciate that! I agree, she seems to important to simply fade into obscurity after her main 'task' was fulfilled. Maybe she took on a consultancy role in Valinor....
@@GirlNextGondor She could have been the head of the office responsible for the resettlement of refugee elves from Middle-Earth! 😎
It seems to me that incarnation is one of those circumstances where the experience is profoundly different from the expectation. In this instance there is a mighty gulf between knowing and being. If wearing the forms of the Children was a sign of love from the Ainur, then incarnation is the evidence of the commitment that love (or obsession if you’re a Dark Lord) compels.
Perhaps after her commission was fulfilled, her husband murdered , her daughter forever parted from her, and so many of her people slain over jewelry, Melian just let go and her spirit fled West for healing and many many counseling sessions with Nienna.
So glad Gondor has called you back! This video was as good the second time as it was the first. Thanks for reloading. Amazing work!
I can see it going a few ways, I think with no reason to hang on to her body Melian would have dropped it *if she were still able*; maybe she went back to Valinor to seek healing but I can also see her taking a 'gap year' to wander around with no one depending on her for a change.
Appreciate the rewatch, glad you enjoyed it (again)!
The point about the stars suggesting she was open to divine inspiration is significant. She had a choice, and she chose to follow that inspiration, and in so doing played a most pivotal role in the music.
Lovely stuff. The power dynamic between these two must have been truly mind-boggling.
-What did you do today, Mel?
-I created a giant magical barrier to protect our lands. Yourself?
-....ehm thinking of asking some Dwarves to do the place up.
Hopeless Romantics is fundamental to the realms.
...are fundamental...
Oh wow!!! your interpretation of Melian is so well done!!! Having never read beyond the silmarillion, I alwys thought Melian was selfish to have left after Thingol's death.....but your explaination makes so much sense!!!! Gifted herself indeed!!!! It makes sense why she allowed half the things Thingol did .......... also, i believe when the Eru and the spirits sand the great song of creation, Melian had a forsight of what may the future be - but she still went ahead and roamed in Arda to encounter Thingol - So 3k years of love for eternity of loniless seems fair?
I had a similar thought. Perhaps Melian foresaw her love with and marriage with Thingol as an integral part of the Music. And having entered Arda, though not able to remember all of the details of the vision of the Music, had a distant memory or desire toward Middle Earth, which led her to wander through it knowing something desirable or epic was destined to happen while there.
And who is to say that she did not meet Thingol after his years or ages of waiting in the Halls of Mandos were fulfilled and he was rebodied in Valinor?
Thanks for the reupload! :) I think Melian is one of my favorite characters in the First Age.
You're very welcome! I think she deserves more attention; she opposed Morgoth in a way similar to Galadriel's later resistance to Sauron for centuries. That alone is impressive!
The idea that Melian and the Istari were in Middle-Earth in the early 1st Age to aid the elves is an interesting one. When exactly did they first show up to aid the elves? Was it the same 5 Maia we know from later? And perhaps most relevant to this tale, how did Melian and Thingol not meet much earlier?
I also wonder what might have happened had the Valar not invited the elves to come to Valinor? As I understand it, if it wasn't for the discord of Melkor, the elves were supposed to remain in Middle-Earth for good while to serve as mentors to men.
As an aside, I wonder what happened to balrogs when they were slain in combat. They were Maia after all yet there is nothing I have found saying anything about what happened to them afterwards.
With the elves not knowing if they would have an existence beyond Arda but understanding that men did, it brings to my mind some parallels with one of my favorite novels, Childhoods End by Arthur C. Clarke. The Overlords who came to Earth were well advanced beyond humans yet they had inherent limitations that prevented them from eventually going where humans would go.
Thank you for the re-upload! I will smash that like button like a dwarven dagger in Thingols heart!
Thanks, Lexi! Appreciate you remaking these for us!
This is honestly one of the most underrated Tolkienian TH-cam channels🙌. Long live GirlNextGondor!
"Pray tell, Melian , what dost thou do in the woodlands of Arda?"
Nothin' much, just vibin' until my fate arrives.
Excellent, invaluable take on this pairing. I have trouble focusing on the romantic ingredient of these stories, and as you rightly point out, that was very important to Tolkien.
I notice your tendency -- and why not? -- to focus on the distaff side of the union, as here you offer great commentary about Melian, while Thingol plays an almost walk-on part. I notice this perhaps because my take on Thingol is quite negative, or, at least, quite critical. His mistakes play a crucial role throughout the First Age, and I think most people only notice the mistakes of Elu Thingol that Tolkien chose to emphasize; but his statecraft included many errors that Tolkien described only indirectly. For example, his policy of freezing out the Noldor was probably related to his pre-Noldor policy of trying to get all Sindar to bend the knee to his rule, and I think Tolkien left it largely unspoken that Thingol was furious that the advent of the Noldor in the North queered the pitch for Thingol to get the Northern Sindar to bend the knee to him. That's just an example; his constant teleological errors when protecting his borders, offering strings-attached sanctuary to guests, withholding desperately needed assistance to his neighbors, giving away (and then imprisoning, and then losing) his only child, fostering a human boy, claiming the greatest Noldor heirloom, welshing on his trade deals, and so on, paid out a steady stream of fascinating and tragic consequences.
I think Thingol was based in some ways on Louis XIV. He was his people's "Sun King," as he would have been the first to tell you (albeit only from the visit to Valinor, and reflection from the face of his wife, and even then, really only until the real Sun came along). He held himself out as king of everyone and source of all prosperity. He surrounded himself with an infamously vicious court. And, of course, it's almost unbelievably easy to imagine Elu Thingol telling his people, "Après moi, le déluge" (or, in my execrable Sindarin, "Cad nin i hlaw"), and so it proved, for him as well as Louis.
I wish that Hollywood could put as much Effort and love behind works like the great authors Of the past
If this whole thing gets a little too depressing, just be sure to always recall that Thingol's brotherwho lived with him was called Elmo. Just have him come in and ask innocent questions in the third person, and suddenly things seem less dark.
Lol
I always have wondered what would happen if Melian and Sauron went head to head
@Girl next Gondor. I feel as though I have stumbled into a dream not unlike Beren’s, after hjs wanderings in the wild coming upon the beautiful Luthièn. Hearing your voice telling the accounts of Tolkien’s earliest works in regard to this particular love story is melting the frost from my heart, soothing my weary soul and reviving my hope in humankind. Thank you for this comprehensive and satisfying historical record of Thingol and Melian. I will wait for you in the undying lands…
-Beren
I've missed you 😭 Great video btw
Thank you!! 😁It's good to be back!
One could make the argument that Melian quite literally put a part of herself in Luthian and when Luthian died, a similar fate as the one that happened to Sauron happened to her.
Considering Melian’s original name, I’m guessing one of Tolkien’s inspirations for her was Guinevere from Arthurian myth.
Yay! A remake of a great video! Love your all your works Lexi! Especially since this is a topic about Melian & Thingol, along with her 'Ring' Luthien! X)
I mean, one of the things about the Rings is that to make one, you have to let your power pass out of your control... and Little Miss Luthien undergoes a teenage rebellion of staggering proportions 😂
Glad you enjoyed the remake, good to see you in the comments as ever!
Elu Thingol is a great character. He was of the 1st Elves to awaken in middle earth. His name was originally Elwe. He was called to Valinor. He left his people and found Melian the Maiar. He was Graymantle. A great King. His daughter as you know was Luthien Tinuvil. The 1st great love between men and Elves. Next to King Ellesar Tuor is my favorite character. He is counted among the elves in Valinor. Thanks for doing Elu Thingol Graymantle.
Oh , sorry I forgot to mention. That Tuor is one of the few men that has a direct interaction with the Valar. You know that Turin Turinbar is a 1st cousin of Tuor and the cross each other ioutside Gondolin. They do not know who each other is.. I don't know if you ever did Tuor.
I'd like to believe that Thingol and Melian met again after his reincarnation and that she now dwells with him in the Undying Lands, awaiting the reunion with her daughter that will come after the world ends.
But to give the Children of the Valar some credit, they weren't very short-lived. They lasted from the 1910s up to around 1950, even after the Maiar as a group were invented.
We...are the Crystal Gems! Melian and Thingol remind me a little of Rose Quartz and Greg Universe.
You r the best ♥️♥️ we want part 2 🍀🍀🍀
Ayyyyyy it's back up! Always nice to see an old video re-released with new artwork!
Ooooh I missed this one! Glad it's back! 😊
I always thought that their story is kind of like an angel coming to earth, desiring to know more about life. And I think that's beautifull.
(Two in a row? Now you are just spoiling us. :)
"and she knew that her parting from Thingol was the forerunner of a greater parting, and that the doom of Doriath was drawing nigh."
"and she vanished out of Middle-earth, and passed to the land of the Valar beyond the western sea, to muse upon her sorrows in the gardens of Lórien, whence she came, and this tale speaks of her no more."
Doesn't sound like she's tied into a body. Sounds like she knew her time was over in Doriath and she took her spirit form back and went returned to Valar however it was that the incorporeal traveled back and forth. (I've never really been clear on that. Did it take time? Was it instantaneous? Sometimes it feels like their incorporeal selves have to physically cover the distance and sometimes it seem like they could just appear where they wanted to.)
Yes, Tolkien is all monotheistic with Eru. Yet, I never could help to see the semblance between the Ainur and the Greek pantheon. Manwe is Zeus, Ulmo Poseidon, Varda Hera, Mandos Hades, Aule Hephaistos, and so on. And what is the most defining attribute of that lot? Their all-too human passions. Zeus making Melian look quite chaste. Finally, didn't Tolkien even state at some point, that it was his aspiration to be a western Europe Homer?
Definitely - I can think of one letter in particular (131 to Milton Waldman) where he goes in some depth on both his myth-making aspirations and the way the Valar/Ainur are an attempt to create a polytheistic-style pantheon in a world that was still vaguely monotheistic. The early versions of the Valar, while still quite respectable compared to other pantheons, are quite a bit more rambunctious than their later evolutions, and the idea that Melian would just wander off and take an Elven lover doesn't feel nearly as anomalous in the context of the early legends 🤣
Bless you Lexi! We are blessed with these uploads 💎✴
As always, you enhance every bit of knowledge and master all aspects of delivery!
And once again, like in the Aegnor and Andreth video, you allow the tale's depth to raise greater realizations regarding the whole legendarium.
In a way, Melian's fate is bittersweet, even if at the moment it seems more bitter. At least the knowledge that the true music will occur at some point can be comforting.
It's like the difference between the meadow of flowers and the plain of sulphur.Tolkien is a true artist, therefore he is romantic. There is a hateful, ugly, miserable, spoiled world, without romance
I love your Tolkien love stories series! Fantastic work! I wonder if you've thought about doing a video about the less-than-perfect "love" story of Aldarion and Erendis in Unfinished Tales? It may be a nice contrast later on. Cheers!
Enjoyed the re-release of this as much as the original ❤
At the moment I am watching one video of your´s after the other and your polite reminders to like the video make me laugh every time! :D
Thanks lexi , haven't had time to watch till now , appreciate your efforts . And writing.
It seems like a recurring theme in Tolkien's romances - barring, perhaps, Faramir and Éowyn, whose relationship stemmed more from a mutual healing together - that the woman is of a special sort of existence that makes her the very greatest treasure in her man's life, no matter what else he has. Beren and Lúthien, Aragorn and Arwen that echoed them, and here Thingol and Melian, are the notable examples.
Thingol was a king, one of the first kings at that, and had beheld the light of the Two Trees in all of their resplendent glory; yet, once he had met the Maia that would become his wife, even the splendor of Valinor paled in comparison. Although, of course, he was the one among these who might be called a failure, as his cold bitterness towards Beren would bring upon him a doom that separated him from his wife and lay all that he had to ruin.
Aragorn was a man of destiny, the rightful heir of two thrones, a descendant of many valorous champions and not lesser in strength or courage than any of them, and yet the kingships of his ancestry were a goal he pursued so that he might have Elrond's blessing to marry Arwen. His love for her, more than anything else, was the thing that spurred him to become the very greatest man he could be, so that he might by some measure be worthy of her.
And, of course, Beren, friend of the King Finrod and warrior skillful enough to amass a price on his head equal even to Fingon, the High King of the Noldor. In the years he spent as a harrier against Morgoth, he deemed capture a fearsome prospect when even death held not the same status; but once he had met Lúthien, fairest child of Ilúvatar that ever lived, he was willing to brave Angband itself in pursuit of the right to marry her. Though he was but one man, weary and ill-equipped from treacherous journeys and innumerable battles, sent on what all knew to be a suicide mission, there was no mountain he would not move or storm he would not weather for the sake of the woman he loved. Of course, the true beauty of that story is that they eventually sought and won their happiness together, rather than one being a prize for the other, but this has already been quite the text wall even as I've only looked at the men's perspective.
I believe all of this is telling of the deep and unflappable love that Tolkien had for his own wife, of the sort that I aspire towards should I ever be blessed with marriage and that I think many others should aspire towards as well.
Really enjoy your videos. Look forward / hope to rewatch your series on magic once they’re back up
Thanks so much! It will require a little more tweaking than the others but the first Magic vid is next on my list to redo!
Oh in the original video i mentioned i love the art of melian with the pearls in her hair or hairnet
Good to see you posting again.
Melian is iconic.
Awesome video ❤️
Hello Girl! May I ask what is the text font your are using when quoting extracts from the books? :) best of luck with all.
Nice work
The greatest love story in Middle Earth js between Sam and Rose. He risked everything to earn her love!!!
So after Thingol died, did Melian have to go to the Isle of Balar to take a ship back to the Undying Lands?
Hey , yes probably elves are required to sail to tol erasia ( Avalon) but middle earth to balar to avolon makes sense but as a maia she is allowed to go to valinor , also dead elves go to the halls of mandos and can be reincarnated, and she and thingol could be reunited.
Oh and sauron was able to travel iindependentlyhis spirt and then embody in middle earth.
@@shanenolan8252
Yes, they will be reunited eventually, but it depends on how Namo weighs Thingol's actions that caused his death. If he was an innocent victim, he should get reembodied sooner.
@@shanenolan8252
But I think Lexi made a point that Melian had used a lot of her power, so I wasn't sure if she could shed her hroa and just fly in her ëala to the Undying Lands. Also, if she shed it, could she reembody with that same hroa in Valinor? Because I am guessing that she wants to be reunited with Thingol, HUT maybe she has a "been there, done that" attitude.
Superb analysis..
Thank you!
Great after work content
Cheers, hope you enjoyed!
On a roll!
Have you seen the "Concerning...'The Hoard'" version of the end of their story? If so, do you have thoughts to share?
I've glanced over "The Hoard" but not well enough, I'm afraid, to form a strong opinion. I've also heard there's some books out there that detail some of Christopher's editorial process, particularly with reference to some later versions of Thingol's death that would give a pretty different flavor to his story.... Something I'd be interested in exploring for sure!
@@GirlNextGondor happy to supply references/content if you so choose.
Wouldn't LUTHIEN be Melian's "ring", though? You' think that Melian's power would become diminished when Luthien dies, not when Thingol dies.
I've always especially enjoyed this series, and while I learn from all your videos, the Love Stories videos contain some of your most interesting insights. I had never bothered to look up the meaning of her name, and when you talk about it at th-cam.com/video/0TMlQArAL2c/w-d-xo.html - well, this bit of information was like the keystone in an arch of understanding her story - everything just 'sturdily fit into place'. When I tell people you are one of the best at showing how to tie collections of moments of story and background information together to create a deeper understanding of Tolkien's world - it's this moment, in this video, that is in my mind.
One last item: there’s nothing from Tolkien to support this, but I like to think that Melian was following “the music” in marrying Thingol, and that Eru approved it. Therefore, after Thingol’s death, Melian would have (thanks to Eru’s mercy) the ability to change from her incarnate form, that this power wasn’t lost to her. But that, out of love for husband and daughter, she retained her incarnate form even though she didn’t have to. Again, no writing from JRRT supports this, but such a thought satisfies me the most.
So Luthien is "Melian's ring"? 🤔
MFW no future-seeing, sings-so-well-it-freezes-time queen GF :'(
🤣🤣
Is this the "girl next Gondor's opinion on the rings of power first season opinion" waiting room?
Why did VARDA reject MELKOR/MORGOTH?
Because edgy sadboy rebels are always more trouble than they're worth.
12:47 😏
Spicy, spicy faculties 😂
@@GirlNextGondor Indeed.
Melian provides a wonderful counterpoint to how Morgoth and Sauron wield power. Whereas their power subjugates, Melian's enables (eg the girdle). Whereas they corrupt life with the intent to control their offspring, she creates life with the intent to allow her offspring agency - even knowing full well things aren't going to be great for them. The Sin of Creation is partially tied to the intent of the creator, and Eru couldn't have selected many better than Melian to be the initial creator of the ripples that play out over the next ages
Now if only there was video analyzing The Sin of Creation 😁
*cough cough* yes if only someone had explored that topic in excessive detail 🤣
Been reading a lot about Orc Origins lately and the topic of procreation - I agree that Melian is a foil for Morgoth (and thus it's fitting that her daughter's the one to serve Morgoth a well-earned humiliation) but I really need to dig into Aule as a foil as well - he starts out on a project very similar to Morgoth's but his repentance allows Eru to redeem the Dwarves and give them life.