Not to disagree with Chuck, but I’ve been on the other end: trauma service. We’ve patched up countless .22lr, birdshot, and even .380 rounds that, to be honest, they didn’t really need much if any treatment for these survivable wounds. In fact, guys like Chuck don’t respond to .22 rounds from those that survive because the wounds were minuscule and they skated. In fact, I’ve had patients survive heart shots from .22lr, 12 ga #6, and .380 auto. The reason they were survivable was because they didn’t expand and merely put clean wounds into my myocardial tissue. Sure, they would have died without medical care, but two of the three were fighting their victim still when law enforcement arrived. The third, the .380, was a suicide attempt and she fought with paramedics such that they had to call LE to help subdue her for treatment. In fact, post-extubation, I asked her why she fought with the paramedic crew. She said, “I figured the longer I held off, the better chance I had to bleed out”. Don’t use small caliber FMJ or birdshot. And avoid .380 and rim fire in general if you’re capable of handling more.
You guys always end up addressing like 5 things I was curious about and 25 things that hadn't crossed my mind and somehow manage to hold my attention in an entertaining way. Mind you, I would literally enter a hypnotic trance 15 minutes into a class and am just shy of having ADHD.
Great discussion! I listened to it twice. Takeways: Pistols .22/.25 pistol = poor choice (unless .22 mag) .327 Fed = new kid on block (similar to 38spl performance, some 9mms) .38spl/9mm/.40/.45ACP = mixed results, a good hit achieves DRT (head hits - ball will ride the skull, face-shooting people lower than eyes is ineffective - jaws/teeth are good bullet stoppers/deflectors) 9mm 124 grain +P Gold Dot performs as advertised .45 ACP Hydra-Shok performs as advertised 9mm and .45ACP ball both perform as advertised fast + light for caliber = barrel length impacts performance Short barrels can mitigate hp expansion and limit penetration depth, non-expanding projectiles (wadcutters) may be better choice in short barrels Stay away from gimmick bullets!! Rifles .22 rifle = very effective killer with 40 grain solid bullet. 125 grain .357 levergun and 123 grain 7.62x39 AKM produce very similar results in gel at same distance (closer ranges) .45-70 very capable, very versatile. .223 Hornady TAP 55 grain to head and neck out of 11.5 or 14.5 carbine @ 10 yards = not lethal despite losing most of his facial organs .223 Hornady TAP 55 grain frangible failed to penetrate car windows and larger subjects to due design Please correct me if needed.
Thank you guys, very good insights. Looking forward to episode 2 on this topic with Chuck Pressburg + GKR. And if possible Bill Blowers would be great too. Keep up the great work Matt and col from P&S!
I just sat on a jury and watched detailed expert testimony of a double homicide in 1992. I will say this, for those who say .380 acp is an inadequate penetrator doesnt have a clue.
Man, 13 gauge. 3” magnum rounds. Slugs are bad, but wait until you try a heavi-shot 3” magnum Turkey load. From a 7lb gun: * 2-3/4” LE slugs have a modest 22 lb-ft of recoil force * 3” Brenneke Black Magic Magnums almost double the force to 50 lb-ft of recoil * 3” Hevi-shot magnum Turkey blend produces a whopping 67 lb-ft!
Based on my observations, they typically come in at the same time. I suspect it is one person who is subscribed specifically to give my videos a thumbs down.
Not to disagree with Chuck, but I’ve been on the other end: trauma service. We’ve patched up countless .22lr, birdshot, and even .380 rounds that, to be honest, they didn’t really need much if any treatment for these survivable wounds. In fact, guys like Chuck don’t respond to .22 rounds from those that survive because the wounds were minuscule and they skated.
In fact, I’ve had patients survive heart shots from .22lr, 12 ga #6, and .380 auto. The reason they were survivable was because they didn’t expand and merely put clean wounds into my myocardial tissue. Sure, they would have died without medical care, but two of the three were fighting their victim still when law enforcement arrived. The third, the .380, was a suicide attempt and she fought with paramedics such that they had to call LE to help subdue her for treatment. In fact, post-extubation, I asked her why she fought with the paramedic crew. She said, “I figured the longer I held off, the better chance I had to bleed out”.
Don’t use small caliber FMJ or birdshot. And avoid .380 and rim fire in general if you’re capable of handling more.
That's good feedback!
@@PrimaryAndSecondary appreciate it.
You guys always end up addressing like 5 things I was curious about and 25 things that hadn't crossed my mind and somehow manage to hold my attention in an entertaining way. Mind you, I would literally enter a hypnotic trance 15 minutes into a class and am just shy of having ADHD.
This has to be one the most insightful discussions on the very vast topic that is calibers and bullet choices.
Great discussion! I listened to it twice.
Takeways:
Pistols
.22/.25 pistol = poor choice (unless .22 mag)
.327 Fed = new kid on block (similar to 38spl performance, some 9mms)
.38spl/9mm/.40/.45ACP = mixed results, a good hit achieves DRT
(head hits - ball will ride the skull, face-shooting people lower than eyes is ineffective - jaws/teeth are good bullet stoppers/deflectors)
9mm 124 grain +P Gold Dot performs as advertised
.45 ACP Hydra-Shok performs as advertised
9mm and .45ACP ball both perform as advertised
fast + light for caliber = barrel length impacts performance
Short barrels can mitigate hp expansion and limit penetration depth, non-expanding projectiles (wadcutters) may be better choice in short barrels
Stay away from gimmick bullets!!
Rifles
.22 rifle = very effective killer with 40 grain solid bullet.
125 grain .357 levergun and 123 grain 7.62x39 AKM produce very similar results in gel at same distance (closer ranges)
.45-70 very capable, very versatile.
.223 Hornady TAP 55 grain to head and neck out of 11.5 or 14.5 carbine @ 10 yards = not lethal despite losing most of his facial organs
.223 Hornady TAP 55 grain frangible failed to penetrate car windows and larger subjects to due design
Please correct me if needed.
Nicely sumarized, thank you, sir.
Also Chuck Haggard recommended sequence of key features:
Reliable -> accurate to sights -> deep enough penetration -> expansion
P&S always brings out the most useful real world data.
I totally Nerd out over this stuff.
Thank you guys, very good insights. Looking forward to episode 2 on this topic with Chuck Pressburg + GKR. And if possible Bill Blowers would be great too.
Keep up the great work Matt and col from P&S!
Very much enjoyed this episode.
Awesome guests.
I just sat on a jury and watched detailed expert testimony of a double homicide in 1992.
I will say this, for those who say .380 acp is an inadequate penetrator doesnt have a clue.
Interesting listen.
Man, 13 gauge. 3” magnum rounds. Slugs are bad, but wait until you try a heavi-shot 3” magnum Turkey load.
From a 7lb gun:
* 2-3/4” LE slugs have a modest 22 lb-ft of recoil force
* 3” Brenneke Black Magic Magnums almost double the force to 50 lb-ft of recoil
* 3” Hevi-shot magnum Turkey blend produces a whopping 67 lb-ft!
Curious why there are four dislikes on this video
Based on my observations, they typically come in at the same time. I suspect it is one person who is subscribed specifically to give my videos a thumbs down.
Well, time to get that Henry Big Boy in 45 colt to match my New Vaquero.