The ongoing problem with the orange Union Pacific is the reversing switch. There are contacts that are dirty inside that piece. You can tell by putting the power wires on the MOTOR to find the motor working just fine. Do this test. But the reason it worked when you messed with the wheel assembly is because you added a little more continuity so the amperage pushed past the dirty contacts on the reverse switch. But you can also see that as soon as you moved the reverse switch, it started to work.
I have a 3 pos E-unit motor from a 600 series switcher. It did the same thing with lots of hum but no movement. I tried squeezing the frame and it worked but only laying on it side. I took some plastic the thickness of an old credit card and shimmed between the frame and armature holder. It worked like almost brand new
Thanks for watching. I had to edit some of the "not so elegant" bits! It was a challenge. Theres another video in making that really had me frustrated. Hint: Prewar.
WOW!!! I had a problem I just couldn't figure out also and now I think I will give it another go again...Thanks for taking the time in finding out the problem.
Very good video, with very good results. Sometimes the problem is hard to diagnose, but you solved it. Thanks to your video a lot of viewers will know what to do if a problem like this comes up. A++
I had a similar problem with a Williams Trainmaster. If the worm gear gets out of alignment one direction binds. My bet is an even better fix is to drill out the rivets holding the motor to the truck and replace the rivets with bolts and tighten. In my case it was a stripped out screw that held the motor to the transition piece that held the motor to the truck causing the misalignment. Nice troubleshooting on your part.
I don't have one of these right now but from your video here and from what I know. Once you find the correct spot, take a piece of sheet metal, or a thin stable plastic. Run it from the metal supports on both ends of the motor assembly. Put one screw in both ends and then once you have the sweet spot put one screw in the plastic part in a safe spot, away from the gears, that is giving trouble. Pre-drill everything slightly smaller then your screw and use machine screws and thread tap your mount holes. Once in place and working well, put thread locking on the screws. Screws have to be very flat on top as to not touch the middle rail or even get close, but don't use flat top screws with that typical tapered head like the wood screws, or they will just split things. Also some of these have mag-na-traction and any drill shavings could get into the gears be very careful of that. Dagryffyn hobby had this problem as well but I did not think of this idea till today. The pinch or squeeze will only hold for a short time!
Thats a great and very detailed repair. You'll have to make a video of that process and share it! For me the 200 series locos are not worth that amount of time. If someone is a fan of the Alcos, I would suggest first get the 2000 series, (2033, 2032, 2023). If they are really set on these cheaper 200 series get the proper upgraded replacement motor mentioned in the video. Just swap it out.
Hey Joe, thanks for watching. I hope you don't have any issues and are just able to enjoy them, but if there are, yes, I hope this video helps. If I was to ever get a 200 series Alco, I would definitely look for the ones with the updated motor design, not the ones with the plastic bearing holders. But, as Jagger says: "you can't always get what you want". 😀
Will do. Just got a Union Pacific alco, and saw your other video on the silver Union Pacific, what timing! I’m just now getting started with trains, haven’t even run a train yet on the layout I created. I still have my old 682 from my 1950s set (yep, I’m an old fart).
Armature end play might be too tight or possibly too loose causing worm and gear bind due to wear/loose assembly. Lower bearing wear or loose plastic to frame causes poor gear mesh, too. Later design changed lower bearing from plastic to a metal bearing in the metal frame as you showed. You can replace the plastic bearing cover or shim it between cover and frame. Squeezing frame is not going to last. Need to restake tabs or solder them. The 202 w/ single magna traction s/b a double wound coil and 2 position switch. You can tie both coil winding in same direction together and use a 3 position “E” unit. The 2nd winding was isolated from ground. That will change to both coils (same wind direction) grounded without insulator sleeve. This change to 3 position “E” unit will allow for stationary engine with power on to operate things like coal, or cattle, or milk cars. Wiring will be as the 205 engine w/ “E” unit.
Thanks for watching and thanks for all that. I'm sure someone can use that fix as a more permanent repair. Personally if I want a strong running Alco I would choose one of the higher end 2000 series.
@@warrenmuzakpostwarguy4331I agree 2023 is better construction. I have a few now and run two powered units together and they stay on tracks going faster and pull a dozen cars no problem. I modified 200 series with dual motors front & rear and double them (4 magna traction motors) pull anything and literally stick to tracks at faster speeds. For cheaper modified engines I’m impressed now.
Reversing the locomotive will try to thrust the motor up and down. Adding a smooth thrust washer between the armature and brush plate may help if there is too much play.
It's not an electrical, the gears are binding up underneath the Loco !!, You have your name drive gear, And 2 smaller secondary Gears it's those gears causing you, Your problem , has nothing whatsoever to do with electrical !!, Mr wizard!! , And car grease will damage the loco, You need white grease ( 1. It's conductive) No.2) It's not as harsh !!, No wonder they don't run the way they Should, I have those same 2 locos an I love them , They run great!!!
Watched your video, great job now i know what the problem is with my Alco engine, have the same problem i guess that is the problem with all thoughs trucks thanks.
Hello, Warren thanks for this video. I have worked on a lot of Lionel engines, but not this type yet. Mostly steam engines. I collect Lionel and Marx trains.
I have the same unit that runs completely fine in forward and reverse for about 45 seconds then it just dies. Im guessing it has something to do with the e-unit but im not sure.
Thanks for watching! I always go through a step by step check when things like that happen. STarting with the track. Is it clean Pickup rollers, clean? making good contact? not heavily grooved? Wires: No broken or loose solder joints, cracked insulation, exposed wires = shorts armature, clean? all carbon removed from copper plates and grooves brushes, not too worn, seated properly Eunit, clean drum? all fingers intact not bent or broken? Lubrication, is everything lubed and moving free not full of dust, carpet fibers, pet hair, etc.
Good job. I have 3 Alcos without that bearing at the bottom of the shaft, number 230 etc. All three run fantastic in reverse and sluggish in the forward position. Any tips for this problem?
Then the lower bearing must be in the sheet metal frame. As motor runs it thrusts either up or down depending on direction it’s turning. Look to see if the additional end play is on the top or bottom by looking at how much the brushes move with direction change. Shim with about a .010” to .015” thick washer to take up additional slop. Don’t make less than about .008” to .010” end play. Possibly a split on shims top and bottom works best. Insure shims do not contact armature windings. Commutator end must be plastic/fiber washer. Most Alco’s (rear motors) run better in reverse due to the thrust direction. Old 2023 Alco had motor in front is better design.
Thanks for watching! I just found tightening up the sides like I did eliminated the sluggish issue I was having, and only temporarily. Honestly, I would try to track down the upgraded motor Lionel released, that is shown in the video. The style with the bearing on the bottom is just a bad unreliable design. Especially if you run these Alco's a lot.
@@warrenmuzakpostwarguy4331 The cover with the bearing hole is available as a repair part. I’ve replaced a couple. They fit tight w 2 lugs on each side. Care required not to spread frame. About $1.50 each. But you may need to shim the sides to get a smooth unloaded armature. I suggest some JB weld epoxy to keep the shims from coming out. All the frame/motor tabs need to be tight. The frame w/oilite bearing was made for dual axle magna traction and has axle bearings. There were others without axle bearings and no magna traction or just one axle magna traction. Motors were made in single an double wound coils for 2 or 3 position “E” units.
The only way to fix a 200/600 series motor is to completely remove it ,remove the wheels and axles and restake the frame square up the bearing plate then reassemble .
Thanks for watching. The best way is still the one recommended by Lionel. Swap out the motor with the improved design. It is much more reliable not having that lousy plastic piece.
I have repaired hundreds of these , there is nothing wrong with the 600-109 bearing plate . You just have to restake the frame and square up the plate and it will run forever and very smooth .
Thanks for watching. I see a lot of love for these low end Alcos. Probably because they were the first Lionels people got. As I said in the vid, these werem't mine. If some drop in my lap, I'll be sure to toss them your way!
@@warrenmuzakpostwarguy4331 Yeah they are my favorites, simple and done right can run really well. I like building powered B's and tying multiple units to run thru one e unit. But they run well on the smaller and tighter layouts, like mine.
In general, they're not hard to repair. A lot of the issues with these early ones is that motor with the plastic bearing holder. Once you've figured that out the rest is very basic. That said, I agree with you and would prefer the higher end 2000 series Alcos which are over all better models.
U ever give up on fixing anything or don't want anything me and my nephew been collecting for yrs because he has heart problems then I got sick someone broke in my house and destroyed all my stuff just broke so many trains well definitely except them
Thanks for watching Phillip! Its a temporary correction. The motor vibration will eventually work that bottom piece loose again. Likely why Lionel redesigned it.
Nope. It was the poorly designed plastic bearing holder at the bottom of the motor. Worked itself loose. I showed it at the end of the video. Thanks for watching.
Really helps to see the process you go through to figure out what is wrong. Thanks!
The ongoing problem with the orange Union Pacific is the reversing switch. There are contacts that are dirty inside that piece. You can tell by putting the power wires on the MOTOR to find the motor working just fine. Do this test. But the reason it worked when you messed with the wheel assembly is because you added a little more continuity so the amperage pushed past the dirty contacts on the reverse switch. But you can also see that as soon as you moved the reverse switch, it started to work.
Its always good to chack and clean the contacts as a first step. In this case it was misaligned gears.
I've had a lot of luck with the later version of these with the exposed worm gear. The first train I ever worked on was a 1065. Thanks for the video
I have a 3 pos E-unit motor from a 600 series switcher. It did the same thing with lots of hum but no movement. I tried squeezing the frame and it worked but only laying on it side. I took some plastic the thickness of an old credit card and shimmed between the frame and armature holder. It worked like almost brand new
Thanks for watching and for sharing that info. There you go folks, another tip on how to keep the shaft on these aligned.
I gave up in frustration trying to solve the problem you so elegantly solved. Thank you.
Thanks for watching. I had to edit some of the "not so elegant" bits! It was a challenge. Theres another video in making that really had me frustrated. Hint: Prewar.
WOW!!! I had a problem I just couldn't figure out also and now I think I will give it another go again...Thanks for taking the time in finding out the problem.
I'll be dipped! VGG! I have the identical 202 from my childhood. It's next inline for a resto...
I wonder if Derek runs Lionels. And if he does, would he feed them ALL the onions? Thanks for watching!
A feller sure worked to chase out those gremlins! Thanks for recording the full process👍👍
Helpful video. I had a similar problem with #225 C&O. Turned out to be a missing thrust washer #600-129.
Very good video, with very good results. Sometimes the problem is hard to diagnose, but you solved it. Thanks to your video a lot of viewers will know what to do if a problem like this comes up. A++
You are the Sherlock Holmes of Postwar Lionel -- bravo!
The Classic model trains site is the true mechanic for these units and smaller.
That 3 in one oil in the red can gets gummy fast. Get sewing machine oil or turbine oil.
I had a similar problem with a Williams Trainmaster. If the worm gear gets out of alignment one direction binds. My bet is an even better fix is to drill out the rivets holding the motor to the truck and replace the rivets with bolts and tighten. In my case it was a stripped out screw that held the motor to the transition piece that held the motor to the truck causing the misalignment. Nice troubleshooting on your part.
Thanks for watching and thanks for the tip! I really appreciate others sharing their knowledge. I'm always learning new stuff about these old locos.
Alco's are nightmares especially the latter ones
AND YOU WATCH VICE GRIP GARAGE THE CRAZY MINNESOTAN DERIC!!!!
The 2000 series aren't bad. Much better built. These 200 series were low end.
I don't have one of these right now but from your video here and from what I know. Once you find the correct spot, take a piece of sheet metal, or a thin stable plastic. Run it from the metal supports on both ends of the motor assembly. Put one screw in both ends and then once you have the sweet spot put one screw in the plastic part in a safe spot, away from the gears, that is giving trouble. Pre-drill everything slightly smaller then your screw and use machine screws and thread tap your mount holes. Once in place and working well, put thread locking on the screws. Screws have to be very flat on top as to not touch the middle rail or even get close, but don't use flat top screws with that typical tapered head like the wood screws, or they will just split things. Also some of these have mag-na-traction and any drill shavings could get into the gears be very careful of that. Dagryffyn hobby had this problem as well but I did not think of this idea till today. The pinch or squeeze will only hold for a short time!
Thats a great and very detailed repair. You'll have to make a video of that process and share it!
For me the 200 series locos are not worth that amount of time. If someone is a fan of the Alcos, I would suggest first get the 2000 series, (2033, 2032, 2023). If they are really set on these cheaper 200 series get the proper upgraded replacement motor mentioned in the video. Just swap it out.
I have a similar problem you’ve given me something to look at. Wish me luck.
Great job Warren, a real test of patience !
Great video! Never owned a diesel, and waiting for some used alcos to arrive in the mail soon. This video should definitely help if there are issues.
Hey Joe, thanks for watching. I hope you don't have any issues and are just able to enjoy them, but if there are, yes, I hope this video helps.
If I was to ever get a 200 series Alco, I would definitely look for the ones with the updated motor design, not the ones with the plastic bearing holders. But, as Jagger says: "you can't always get what you want". 😀
Will do. Just got a Union Pacific alco, and saw your other video on the silver Union Pacific, what timing! I’m just now getting started with trains, haven’t even run a train yet on the layout I created. I still have my old 682 from my 1950s set (yep, I’m an old fart).
I have a few that jam-can drive you bonkers!
Armature end play might be too tight or possibly too loose causing worm and gear bind due to wear/loose assembly. Lower bearing wear or loose plastic to frame causes poor gear mesh, too. Later design changed lower bearing from plastic to a metal bearing in the metal frame as you showed. You can replace the plastic bearing cover or shim it between cover and frame. Squeezing frame is not going to last. Need to restake tabs or solder them. The 202 w/ single magna traction s/b a double wound coil and 2 position switch. You can tie both coil winding in same direction together and use a 3 position “E” unit. The 2nd winding was isolated from ground. That will change to both coils (same wind direction) grounded without insulator sleeve. This change to 3 position “E” unit will allow for stationary engine with power on to operate things like coal, or cattle, or milk cars. Wiring will be as the 205 engine w/ “E” unit.
Thanks for watching and thanks for all that. I'm sure someone can use that fix as a more permanent repair. Personally if I want a strong running Alco I would choose one of the higher end 2000 series.
@@warrenmuzakpostwarguy4331I agree 2023 is better construction. I have a few now and run two powered units together and they stay on tracks going faster and pull a dozen cars no problem. I modified 200 series with dual motors front & rear and double them (4 magna traction motors) pull anything and literally stick to tracks at faster speeds. For cheaper modified engines I’m impressed now.
Reversing the locomotive will try to thrust the motor up and down. Adding a smooth thrust washer between the armature and brush plate may help if there is too much play.
Good info. I think this is the problem I've been having with similar Lionel motors (especially in reverse).
Thanks for watching!
That noise....sounded toooooooooo familiar. I have 2 or 3 of these. Gonna sell 2 of them when I can get them running better.
It's not an electrical, the gears are binding up underneath the Loco !!, You have your name drive gear, And 2 smaller secondary Gears it's those gears causing you, Your problem , has nothing whatsoever to do with electrical !!, Mr wizard!! , And car grease will damage the loco, You need white grease ( 1. It's conductive) No.2) It's not as harsh !!, No wonder they don't run the way they Should, I have those same 2 locos an I love them , They run great!!!
So true, you need a grease that’s compatible with plastic. Hobby store sell it, just buy it, if you want to do correct lubrication on these units.
Also if the armature spacer is gone the armature will lift out of mesh. I've been repairing for 50 years. Hope you figure it out.
Nicely done Warren. This is a known issue with the 200 series, and it’s documented in the Greenberg’s manual.
Looks like armature spacer is missing causing the armature to move out of mesh
On my Alco 202 I had to replace a pinion gear which caused the binding.
Watched your video, great job now i know what the problem is with my Alco engine, have the same problem i guess that is the problem with all thoughs trucks thanks.
Thank you for sharing👍
I have a 2032 alco that I love and is a great runner. What do you have against these fine engines
This video wasn;t about the 2000 series Alco's They are very different from the 200 series I am talking about in this video.
very help video thank you
Hello, Warren thanks for this video. I have worked on a lot of Lionel engines, but not this type yet. Mostly steam engines. I collect Lionel and Marx trains.
Thanks for watching. I prefer the steam engines myself, but they all have their charm. Theres LOTS of Marx fans at the train shows around here!
Sounds like its missing the insulating bushing on top of the brush plate screw on the right side.
Thank you, that is a great video with helpful information!.!
HA! Thanks Stephen. That could be a great line for next T-Shirt Design!
The two position E-units are a little more challenging to work with than the 3 position E-unit
Then I'm thankful I didn't need to do anything to them.
I have the same unit that runs completely fine in forward and reverse for about 45 seconds then it just dies. Im guessing it has something to do with the e-unit but im not sure.
Thanks for watching! I always go through a step by step check when things like that happen. STarting with the track. Is it clean
Pickup rollers, clean? making good contact? not heavily grooved?
Wires: No broken or loose solder joints, cracked insulation, exposed wires = shorts
armature, clean? all carbon removed from copper plates and grooves
brushes, not too worn, seated properly
Eunit, clean drum? all fingers intact not bent or broken?
Lubrication, is everything lubed and moving free not full of dust, carpet fibers, pet hair, etc.
It could be your field is misaligned with the armature? The swedge crimps loosn up and that causes the problem!
These are fantastic locos on which to learn core maintenance tasks. Well done.
My only criticism is throw away your dirty qtip! They’re cheap!!
Good job.
I have 3 Alcos without that bearing at the bottom of the shaft, number 230 etc.
All three run fantastic in reverse and sluggish in the forward position.
Any tips for this problem?
Then the lower bearing must be in the sheet metal frame. As motor runs it thrusts either up or down depending on direction it’s turning. Look to see if the additional end play is on the top or bottom by looking at how much the brushes move with direction change. Shim with about a .010” to .015” thick washer to take up additional slop. Don’t make less than about .008” to .010” end play. Possibly a split on shims top and bottom works best. Insure shims do not contact armature windings. Commutator end must be plastic/fiber washer. Most Alco’s (rear motors) run better in reverse due to the thrust direction. Old 2023 Alco had motor in front is better design.
Thanks for watching! I just found tightening up the sides like I did eliminated the sluggish issue I was having, and only temporarily. Honestly, I would try to track down the upgraded motor Lionel released, that is shown in the video. The style with the bearing on the bottom is just a bad unreliable design. Especially if you run these Alco's a lot.
@@warrenmuzakpostwarguy4331 The cover with the bearing hole is available as a repair part. I’ve replaced a couple. They fit tight w 2 lugs on each side. Care required not to spread frame. About $1.50 each. But you may need to shim the sides to get a smooth unloaded armature. I suggest some JB weld epoxy to keep the shims from coming out. All the frame/motor tabs need to be tight. The frame w/oilite bearing was made for dual axle magna traction and has axle bearings. There were others without axle bearings and no magna traction or just one axle magna traction. Motors were made in single an double wound coils for 2 or 3 position “E” units.
Marx guy here, spray WD40 into the base of the E-units. Lube and clean armature, and wheel bushing.
The only way to fix a 200/600 series motor is to completely remove it ,remove the wheels and axles and restake the frame square up the bearing plate then reassemble .
Thanks for watching. The best way is still the one recommended by Lionel. Swap out the motor with the improved design. It is much more reliable not having that lousy plastic piece.
I have repaired hundreds of these , there is nothing wrong with the 600-109 bearing plate . You just have to restake the frame and square up the plate and it will run forever and very smooth .
Hey, if you don't like them, send them my way. I love those things.
Thanks for watching. I see a lot of love for these low end Alcos. Probably because they were the first Lionels people got. As I said in the vid, these werem't mine. If some drop in my lap, I'll be sure to toss them your way!
@@warrenmuzakpostwarguy4331 Yeah they are my favorites, simple and done right can run really well. I like building powered B's and tying multiple units to run thru one e unit. But they run well on the smaller and tighter layouts, like mine.
I heard they are difficult to repair. I would prefer a higher grade loco.But if I found one cheap ...,like in a collection. Nice video.
I always check the lube on the worm gear when I get a loco 🚂🚃🚃🚃
In general, they're not hard to repair. A lot of the issues with these early ones is that motor with the plastic bearing holder. Once you've figured that out the rest is very basic.
That said, I agree with you and would prefer the higher end 2000 series Alcos which are over all better models.
U ever give up on fixing anything or don't want anything me and my nephew been collecting for yrs because he has heart problems then I got sick someone broke in my house and destroyed all my stuff just broke so many trains well definitely except them
Good trouble shooting video ,who would have thought that just squeezing that frame would correct the problem.?
Thanks for watching Phillip! Its a temporary correction. The motor vibration will eventually work that bottom piece loose again. Likely why Lionel redesigned it.
@@warrenmuzakpostwarguy4331 I was running my MPC era Sante Fe F-3s today and they run just fine .Have a similar motor but no binding issues .
@@philliprowe2656 F3's are great! Beautiful locos. MPC Era is a different motor design.
@@warrenmuzakpostwarguy4331 The silver ,red and yellow warbonnet scheme is a classic!
You're completely wrong!!, It's the side gear's, Your gears are binding up Because the gear's wallered out , You need new gear's
Nope. They were fine. See the video. Thanks for watching.
You have a bad armature in my opinion
Nope. It was the poorly designed plastic bearing holder at the bottom of the motor. Worked itself loose. I showed it at the end of the video. Thanks for watching.