This is a very interesting video. Long ago, back in the early 1990s, I used to have my own wedding & portrait photographic business. The 'big' show was at the NEC. It was the place to go, so I went - three times. The first time I got a couple of 'gigs' out of it & being quite new to the game I thought that was great. The next year, people just seemed to be looking for freebies. Not even the offer of a free canvas wall print could sway anyone. I struck a blank. The third time I went, was as a paying customer. I used the time to look around the stands, I 'networked' & I handed out business cards & flyers to potential customers. This third visit generated more custom than I could have dreamed of. Later, I analysed the three shows, as you have so brilliantly done & basically came up with the same conclusions as yourself. As a sole trader, it's not worth the outlay or hassle going to a show as a trader. If Computers & TH-cam were around back then, I might have done the above video myself. 😉
You're quite right and you've pretty much nailed it but on the other hand I now know of you. In marketing terms that's useful. Yes IPMS should favour the small trader. After all the LMS is the heartblood for many modellers. Not only that, Airfix, Revell etc don't have the mass market they used to have. It's mostly online but there is a decided pleasure to visit a shop. Today I went to the my local tiny model shop and bought an Airfix Chipmunk. He told me he had six Lysanders on order. I told him I'd be back to buy one. He actually sold it to me at that moment. So good for him and Airfix. Your assessment and graphics are interesting. You've obviously a business brain but being a small trader in models is difficult. Best of luck to you.
Thanks! The main issue I have with the IPMS costings for Telford is that they heavily dissuade smaller traders from getting a larger stand. If I were to get a larger stand with twice the space the costs would be much higher since I'd need at least one more person for the show and a van hire on top of the more-than-double stand cost - that's a huge barrier to expansion for a small business, but a larger one than wants to go from a six to seven size pitch can do so cheaper? That doesn't make any sense! Just make it the same increase for each additional table! I get corners being priced differently, because of the difference in prominence, but that's a subjective choice too.
I really appreciated this video- many thanks for putting it up. I also have a small business, but nothing to do with scale modelling. Modelling is my big stress buster and I rarely attend shows. I have noticed however, the typical buyer mechanic is that everyone rushes to pick up the best deals with the cheapest prices on the latest kits- and after viewing your analysis it seems one would have to shift an awful lot of boxes very quickly to make a good profit. This in itself leads to more cost/time/staff problems. Your video cemented views I already hold regarding this show.
I went this year for the first time and im looking to go again next year. I went mainly for supplies not kits and i knew you were there so made a sure i found you to get what i wanted. I found your stall to be a great size for what you had and it was a pleasure to meet you.
I like this video from a business point of view. If you do it again you need a friend or someone to "ride shotgun" with you as we might say here in the states. This would allow you to visit the booths in the shows and make business connections, and maybe talk to manufacturers on carrying their products in your business, etc. I would have something that has your address very visible (at least the city) - while modeling is usually a singular / private type of hobby - there might be modelers that are quite close to your shop but may not now you are there. I thought you did a good job on the booth setup. I don't see where more than one table would be any advantage to you so you really made the right choice to go small. 👍 Thanks for sharing the video !
It's interesting to hear you lay it out so plainly. Cost of having a stall is why Phil Flory and his team only went as visitors this year and not as traders.
What a wonderful video showing a traders view..Time stops me from going to Telford but I will at some point..Best of luck with your business and I will check it out if it’s online..Thanks again and all the very best👍
A very interesting report and made for great viewing from the other side so to speak. From a perspective of the punter, I personally saw those corner throughways as just that, and missed most companies and traders stationed in those areas. I was with the Norfolk Scale Model Group and we had a very lovely couple on a table adjoined to us. I asked whether they would come again, and they said they were very much looking forward to returning - mainly Esty and Instagram for his sales, I'm guessing the overheads were less, but I'm really surprised at the costs involved. I guess IPMS will take absolutely no notice of your findings, as getting any answer, or comment from them is equivalent to having a government who can deliver! …and next time I'm visiting, I'll do my level best to come by and hold the fort, so you can eat, go to the toilet and more important let you have time to buy kits!
I feel your pain! I worked the show circuit for quite a few years and have to say that the moment you start to do overnighters your profit and loss takes a pounding. I rarely ever did a show solo, for the obvious comfort reasons as well as security (thieves are, unfortunately, very active at shows). You are ideally situated to take in a lot of decent shows closer to your base that will give you a much more worthwhile experience and be more beneficial to your regular shop business without having to pay through the nose to IPMS for the 'privilege' of trading at Telford.
Great video! Thanks for the small business's perspective Alex! WRT to pricing, a couple of thoughts: 1. Maybe exposure is more important to larger businesses so the cost of attending events is absorbed into a Marketing budget, which a smaller business may not specifically have? 2. Table cost. Are they priced according to popularity and/or how many of each they have, not according to size? Lesser popular layouts may be priced higher because the IPMS know they won't sell many anyway.
A really interesting article and thank you very much for posting. I can see that being a small trader is incredibly difficult and your information about it just reinforces that point having to go without going to the loo or eating all day is not something many of us want to do.please ignore all the people below thing they know everything there is to know about business. I’m sure you know much better than any of us so I wish you every luck in your future trading and hope that the investment in the show was worthwhile. maybe see you there next year.
Thank you Alex for a view from the other side. It really is interesting. I've often wondered how traders make a profit. Maybe you have already thought of it, but my brother in law (god rest his soul) used to do "comic coms" and he had a small sack truck that converted to a flat truck too to get all his stuff in and out.
An interesting and informative insight into the "Dark" side of attending a model show. I've not attended the Telford show, but I do try and support my local show in Thornbury. Over the last few shows I've noticed that the number of smaller traders have stopped attending even this show. I know the organisers have to cover costs etc. but by pricing out the smaller traders like yourself they are effectively stifling (or killing) the role that local smaller traders play in hobbies of all types. I attended the model show at the REME museum in Lynham a couple of weeks ago and the majority of traders appeared to be smaller traders, it was great. I'm also attending a similar model show at the Army Air Corps museum in a couple of weeks. I think that the bonus to both of these shows is the addition of seeing the exhibits in the museum(s) as well as visiting the traders and modelling exhibits. In Lynham there were some local model clubs, covering different aspects of modelling that you may not see at bigger shows. Good luck with additional sales based on visiting the show. I hope this video goes some way in getting the powers to be at IPMS to revise their charging scales. Thank you for sharing.
@@davidjowett8195 Agreed - exhibitions held in museums have multiple benefits - the one at the Helicopter museum in the SW earlier in the year was a great example. As for trade pricing, it's a tricky one I know, and I don't want to seem like I'm just advocating for lower prices, I just think they have to be realistic, transparent and with some understanding of both sides. Relying on big traders is risky because if they cancel, you can lose enough revenue from that as to make your show untenable, and if it's the same ones at each show, they're not much of a draw. Lots of smaller traders is good for draw and mitigating risk, but too many and there's no room for some larger ones....
I went to the Guildex model railway show about 3 times when it was held at Telford. over 10 years ago the wi-fi was hopeless. I don't think it got any better at any time. The Gauge O guild now hold Guildex at the Staffordshire county show ground. As far as I know it has no Wi-fi problems.
Interesting to see the numbers and costs, It's actually cheaper than I expected it to be to have a table, although I recognise that hobby shops are not goldmines and flush with cash. I don't think you can analyse the pitch size/cost too much, as they'll charge what they think the market will bear, but possibly worth considering teaming up with another trader to (a) share costs and (b) allow a certain amount of time away from the table. Edited to add : Forgot to thank you for the video, I stumbled across it, and it's worked as advertising as I now know where your shop is!
I can't wait for this video,as I actually purchased from you at Telford,so I want to see the way you saw this weekend. You had some great offers,and I can't wait to make that small Hasegawa 1/72nd A6M5 and 1/48th Academy Spitfire Mark XIV.I will make sure to be here during the premiere.
Awesome.....i might be in the minority but i prefer to see what the vendors had for sale and who they are rather thsn see the models on display so looking forward to this very much.👍👍👍
Totally agree - for me the show is too large to really look over all of the display stands. I always tended to focus on the traders and the competition.
You are certainly not alone, I gave up on Telford three years ago and now left the IPMS. I never visited the competition tables. I have heard similar economic truths from other traders who subsequently gave up attending.
As always, very interesting objective (scientific) perspective and conclusion - promotionv profit dependingon size. I meant to buy sprue goo and have a chat but each time I passed you were engaged with others which I took as a positive, ie you weren't sitting there bored like some other traders.
Very interesting perspective Alex. Good talking to you on Saturday and hopefully with Outlaw paints landing soon, I will hopefully get an order placed before Christmas
Gutted I missed you, just walked by :/ should have checked the corners, your even parked next to my mates van who had a stall, he said it was really busy for him as a trader, also you said about the wi fi... the bad wifi caused my card to get banned lucky my mate was with me and could lend me the money for kits until I got internet connection to pay him back
Having been going to SMW for years now, this explains why the smaller venders tend to be there for a year or two then suddenly stop attending. From my own point of view I think a restructuring of the prices for traders would be in order to accomodate the smaller traders. IPMS members were polled earlier this year on making various changes, including paying towards SMW, so there might be changes ahead.
Very interesting video, I came on the Sunday prepared to spend a lot of money and left having spent less than £50 all in. It’s a great show but I got the impression a lot of the best kits go on the Saturday, I popped over to your stall on the Sunday afternoon and it looked like you had sold most of your stock and there was very little left. I hope you come next year and I think bigger is probably better for the traders….
Very interesting view from the other side so to speak. As you mentioned about the tables, some traders dont use them but because thats the "space" they have paid for we still had to put them out on Friday morning, then remove them if not needed. The WIFi is provided by the TIC and like all centres their free WIFI is shocking at times. I did come to your stand briefly but you had a lot of people around so carried on mooching, as my time was also limited to look around
@@alexmoore2831 I understand about the tables, but that's my point - with better communication (ie any) then only those needed could be hired, saving the ipms money. The WiFi isn't free, it's a private one provided just for the traders, and whilst it might be provided by the TIC, the IPMS needs to hold them to account - especially since the amount of money being paid, again, by traders
Thanks for the insight. I once attended a model show near Detroit as a trader and had a similar experience: insufficient sales to cover my costs, begging passing friends to watch my table for a bathroom or food break, and to add to that, it was during the winter and I had to drive home in snow. Never again. BUT - will you have another video about Valeriia and ICM? Your ICM videos last year were some of my favorite content on all of TH-cam.
an interesting insight into the show game. never been to Telford, its a bit far, but I only really go to shows to stock up on kits and perhaps snag a bargain. less traders, less draw for me, and I can't be the only one?
A great video highlighting issues for vendors at SMW. I attended this year and many other years as a customer. I find it difficult to understand what the IPMS direction is for the show. The venue is clearly not big enough to host both a large display area and a significant number of vendors and customers. People were constantly complaining about the retailer's being pushed into smaller and smaller spaces. Some were so small looking around was impossible and I and many other people just walked past rather than play the rucksack barge game! So much space is occupied by club tables, which is interesting but the vendors pay for the show. I think an overhaul of the show concept needs to happen. Better spacing for vendors needs to happen so the public can browse for items. Club tables should be consolidated into a single location, allowing a split of club viewers and buying public to happen across the halls. Mixing them closes the space to a minimum for everyone. Perhaps a review of Telford as a suitable venue is due.
For sure that would be interesting - bearing in mind they have higher travel, accommodation, food and stand costs, plus the burden of having to pay staff (something I don't have to factor in just yet)
I'll be honest, I saw your stand in the corner there and on Sunday it didn't look like you had much to offer. Didn't really draw much attention in and I walked by. I knew of your channel though, so recognised the name.
Very interesting perspective. It is useful to understand what the costs are for traders and how they view it. Everyone needs to be able to make a profit (which could be financial or increased visibility and recognition) but the IPMS does seem to have a weird pricing scale anyway that you look at it. 12 hours without any comfort break? When you get older that becomes a fantasy. 😁
@ I used to be able to drive London to Edinburgh non-stop but no more! I am at the planning routes around services stage. Too much coffee doesn't help - don't have espresso/coffee as a second hobby might be an idea for me. Thanks again for really interesting model related content that is not just reviews/builds.
Hi Alex , was good to meet you for a chat. I did notice many vendors asking for cash payments later on. How hard can it be to get WiFi working? Hopefully you'll get to visit Japan sooner than later.
The fact that power is not included drove me crazy at larger exhibitions - you need some very custom payment methods to work all weekend without a charging point - My experience of larger model railway shows was that you were almost an inconvenience to them (NEC I'm looking at you). It would be nice to have calm access to set up. It would be nice to maybe get a hot drink sometime through the 12 hour shift you are pulling. It would be really nice not to have theft from the stand, or for that theft to be treated as a crime and not a cost of attending... for some reason I don't do shows any more.
I don't expect many of the traders there make a profit, the type of people who attend are all looking to get a reduced price! the people who do generally make a profit are the organisers. At least your pop up standa are re-usable!!
I doubt that it is the IPMS that sets the prices and what you have to pay extra for or are required to pay for, it's the venue that makes the rules. The venue wants to make as much money as possible and they want you to use their tables and what ever extra items only that they provide.
I don't think you're correct here - I believe the IPMS rents the space and the tables separately, and they govern the layout. Extras I get may be the venue, but this is where the IPMS need to exercise some "chutzpah" and negotiate hard - they could take this event elsewhere, but I doubt they've even looked into this.
@@MannsModelMoments I think you will find they have looked at alternatives, which is why they hold the event at Telford. This is an issue that is chewed over regularly in the IPMS Magazine. I do know some committee members and it's like spinning plates. Costings and traders bearing the brunt of expenses is a constant bone to be gnawed. In an ideal world, things would be rosy for all of us, but in the real world, you have to watch for the crocodiles in the swamp. It is a very well put together video, encapsulating many salient points. I wish you success in your business, but it seldom comes overnight. It's for you to evaluate the economics or PR value of future attendances. This was the first year, aside from Covid, that I have not attended, for the past 12 years. Next year I will be back with a new club table, so I may get to see what you decide. As an aside, the table hire used to be 'stack em high and sort yourselves out'. I have done the breakdown in the past, but it's now in the hands of the contractors. Now in my 70s, it's nice not to have to clear up after everyone has gone home, especially having travelled right across country and been there since Friday afternoon setting up, and commuting to the hotel 15miles away for 3 nights. We as a hobbyist group are not getting younger, and it's always good to see new/young blood coming to the show in whatever capacity. It costs everyone to attend, and punters often spend many hundreds of pounds at Telford on top of their personal expenses. The show is there to be a show and a gathering - a bit like going to Greece for a stag night. You pays your money and you takes your chance.
Alex, would it be better if a number of small traders banded together and took tables in a more central location, sharing out the expense evenly? I’m thinking traders with products that complement each other. 🤔
Not a bad idea - I've no idea how the IPMS would work with people to do it, and it would take some organising. I've already wondered if I should get two one-table stands, one for Mann's Model Moments shop and one for my YT channel - cheaper than a x2 table...would the IPMS allow it? Well, strictly speaking they're two different entities, so they should, but it would highlight a potential loophole....which kinda proves the point - there should be no "loopholes" for a cheaper way of doing the same thing at a show!
Think trade shows have to be treated as part sales and part advertising and marketing .Getting contacts leads and new customers aware of your brand/shop etc is what it's about...use sales margins you may make to offset some of the cost....then it's worth it
@@paulfuchs4002 Agreed, but that's a difficult line to walk....and also to sell in mid-lathe companies. I know we had this discussion in leadership meetings in the scientific arena, and when I worked for well-known companies, always advised NOT to do them, as they weren't cost effective. No new customers, people already knew us, so the meeting needed us more than we needed them. The IPMS needs to be careful they don't impose too much on big companies like Airfix etc or the may do the same...Revell already did for a number of years, for example
The Ironworks Aparthotel - they're very reasonable little self-contained apartments with a pub, several takeaways, ATM and convenience store right next to them, just under 3 miles from the ICC
Some of your costs should really be amortised over more than one show. Your banners and insurance for example. But yes it is expensive. I exhibited for two years, and living only 13 miles away I could skip accommodation and most travel costs, but even with more generous margins than yours it was only a small profit for a lot of hard work.
I agree that SMW is an expensive proposition for all traders which is not helped by the increased cost pass through by the venue to the IPMS. I also agree that the Wi-Fi is shockingly poor and that the International Centre really needs to up it's connectivity, but then they would pass that cost on to show organisers as well, making it even more expensive. Sad really.
Yes I should, because they still needed purchasing. They need to be accounted for in the tax year and they're not being reused within it. I wouldn't account for them at a future meeting, of course, unless I did a larger stand and required more.
The HMRC reimbursement rate for mileage is 45p per mile, which includes fuel and wear on the vehicle (tires, oil etc - imagine you don't own a car, the hire would cost you that extra for the journey). It actually cost me around £50 in fuel used. If you want to calculate the cost/profitability on that basis then just take £100 from the cost, and remove £300 or £400 from the break even figures, making them £1950 and £2600 respectively - it still doesn't come close to changing the result. People tend to forget that a business can't think about things the way a person does - like just because you have a car doesn't make use of it somehow "free". Everything in a business has to be accounted for, amortised etc. Cars need insuring, maintaining, decrease in value etc etc.
Its obvious that from a business perspective the show is a no go . Maybe next year, just do a " meet and greet " . If enough show the IPMS that these costs are unacceptable then it will change after all , no traders = no public.
Using gov't rates on mileage is disingenuous, as it doesn't reflect reality. Also, I don't think you would have refrained from eating food if you hadn't attended.
This isn't how business works, and I wouldn't have spent £50 on food if I were at home. When people travel for work, subsistence is paid for. Also, HMRC rates reflect using a private vehicle to include wear and tear, otherwise I'd have the costs of hiring a vehicle for the event - so these rates are EXACTLY what should be used.
Very interesting breakdown of the substantial costs of exhibiting, but I will quibble over your transport/fuel cost, which you can reclaim from HMRC as a legitimate business expense, therefore your numbers and argument are automatically suspect. Banners can be reused as can the pop-ups, so really far less than £100. By my reckoning, true costs would be in the region of £520. Break even following your formula would be £1560. Appreciate the event is not directly profitable for you, but ideally, you will be looking at goodwill, loyalty, etc. I'm interested in the foundation of the assertion you make regarding the funding of SMW as no figures are publicly available. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the difficulties experienced by small and medium-sized businesses, especially those working in niche environments (and we all know model kits are very niche). There is no LMS less than 50 minutes from me, they've all disappeared. I'm from the 2 bob generation agonising for hours in Woolies over what bagged kit I could afford, and wanted every month, so honestly, despite my questions/criticism, I am on your side
Cost of transport is NOT just fuel - a business has to account for everything - use of a car is not "free" - it needs to be insured, maintained etc. If you don't believe this, try hiring a car for the weekend for £0. Banners are reusable, but are a cost to the business. I'm not using them again in this tax year, so they will be accounted for this year, so the full cost. That will lower my cost for NEXT year, unless I go for a bigger stand, where I will need more.
@@kitbag9033 oh, for SMW, figures absolutely are public ally available as accounts are published to members every year - we discussed this on Airfix and Chill the last time these were sent out
A few points to raise against your comments number one these sort of shows are not designed for small traders. They will happily take your money and laugh all the way to the bank with it. You are never gonna cover your costs or make any real profit on the day when you’re taking the consideration like you said in the video, all of the overheads Number two don’t go to this sort of event on your own. It is completely bloody irresponsible and I mean bloody irresponsible even just to the single point of your health to go on your own where you cannot go to the toilet when you need to you cannot go get food and drink when you need to especially drink for God sake it’s common sense. Take a mate with you or a spouse the best they’ll do is they get in the show for free to help you out and you swap one goes and has a look round the show and the other one keep an eye on the store Number three is probably a reason why you did it but why did you push your tables all the way back to the wall? Anybody walking down the road from the store next to you? Won’t see you there. They will assume that last that store next to you is the last one I’m not walk any further and have a look if there was a line for you to have your stall behind have your stall literally just behind that line and then have your seating behind there I’ve done these type of events with a friend of mine. I used to do models diecast cars as a living these lessons we learnt pretty quickly through all the years we did it going through the airshow circuit convention and model show circuit for God sake if you go next year, you don’t go on your own that’s just silly for a few reasons like I’ve already stated
@@MannsModelMoments hi, he may have made incorrect assumptions about some of the points , but going to a show on your own wasn't one of them, it was maybe a little naive to assume you could survive the whole day without a break (of some sort). Surely position in the hall would be based on when you booked, there were traders already booking for next year at the event. Normally there is a coffee/ snack trolley making the rounds of the traders for exactly your needs (not a commode however) but it is provided by the centre, at centre prices and at their discretion. I wonder also if you approached (or stopped one on the way past) a member of the show staff , the "guys wearing yellow" to discuss your need for an emergency comfort break, you may have been surprised by their reaction, especially as they represent the enemy, they may have minded your stand as a courtesy, obviously no sales would have been made nor would this become the norm or would extended periods of time be acceptable (as they still have a hall to manage).
@@Keeldem Nope, not naive at all - I've attended many dozens of conferences and trade shows and know exactly what it's like. Also no mobile coffee/snack trolley making the rounds and position of stand is NOT based on booking time.
This is a very interesting video. Long ago, back in the early 1990s, I used to have my own wedding & portrait photographic business. The 'big' show was at the NEC. It was the place to go, so I went - three times. The first time I got a couple of 'gigs' out of it & being quite new to the game I thought that was great. The next year, people just seemed to be looking for freebies. Not even the offer of a free canvas wall print could sway anyone. I struck a blank. The third time I went, was as a paying customer. I used the time to look around the stands, I 'networked' & I handed out business cards & flyers to potential customers. This third visit generated more custom than I could have dreamed of. Later, I analysed the three shows, as you have so brilliantly done & basically came up with the same conclusions as yourself. As a sole trader, it's not worth the outlay or hassle going to a show as a trader. If Computers & TH-cam were around back then, I might have done the above video myself. 😉
You're quite right and you've pretty much nailed it but on the other hand I now know of you. In marketing terms that's useful.
Yes IPMS should favour the small trader. After all the LMS is the heartblood for many modellers. Not only that, Airfix, Revell etc don't have the mass market they used to have.
It's mostly online but there is a decided pleasure to visit a shop.
Today I went to the my local tiny model shop and bought an Airfix Chipmunk. He told me he had six Lysanders on order. I told him I'd be back to buy one.
He actually sold it to me at that moment. So good for him and Airfix.
Your assessment and graphics are interesting. You've obviously a business brain but being a small trader in models is difficult.
Best of luck to you.
Thanks! The main issue I have with the IPMS costings for Telford is that they heavily dissuade smaller traders from getting a larger stand. If I were to get a larger stand with twice the space the costs would be much higher since I'd need at least one more person for the show and a van hire on top of the more-than-double stand cost - that's a huge barrier to expansion for a small business, but a larger one than wants to go from a six to seven size pitch can do so cheaper? That doesn't make any sense! Just make it the same increase for each additional table! I get corners being priced differently, because of the difference in prominence, but that's a subjective choice too.
I really appreciated this video- many thanks for putting it up. I also have a small business, but nothing to do with scale modelling. Modelling is my big stress buster and I rarely attend shows. I have noticed however, the typical buyer mechanic is that everyone rushes to pick up the best deals with the cheapest prices on the latest kits- and after viewing your analysis it seems one would have to shift an awful lot of boxes very quickly to make a good profit. This in itself leads to more cost/time/staff problems. Your video cemented views I already hold regarding this show.
I went this year for the first time and im looking to go again next year.
I went mainly for supplies not kits and i knew you were there so made a sure i found you to get what i wanted.
I found your stall to be a great size for what you had and it was a pleasure to meet you.
I like this video from a business point of view. If you do it again you need a friend or someone to "ride shotgun" with you as we might say here in the states. This would allow you to visit the booths in the shows and make business connections, and maybe talk to manufacturers on carrying their products in your business, etc. I would have something that has your address very visible (at least the city) - while modeling is usually a singular / private type of hobby - there might be modelers that are quite close to your shop but may not now you are there. I thought you did a good job on the booth setup. I don't see where more than one table would be any advantage to you so you really made the right choice to go small. 👍 Thanks for sharing the video !
@@brucek3217 Thanks!
It's interesting to hear you lay it out so plainly. Cost of having a stall is why Phil Flory and his team only went as visitors this year and not as traders.
What a wonderful video showing a traders view..Time stops me from going to Telford but I will at some point..Best of luck with your business and I will check it out if it’s online..Thanks again and all the very best👍
A very interesting report and made for great viewing from the other side so to speak.
From a perspective of the punter, I personally saw those corner throughways as just that, and missed most companies and traders stationed in those areas.
I was with the Norfolk Scale Model Group and we had a very lovely couple on a table adjoined to us. I asked whether they would come again, and they said they were very much looking forward to returning - mainly Esty and Instagram for his sales, I'm guessing the overheads were less, but I'm really surprised at the costs involved.
I guess IPMS will take absolutely no notice of your findings, as getting any answer, or comment from them is equivalent to having a government who can deliver!
…and next time I'm visiting, I'll do my level best to come by and hold the fort, so you can eat, go to the toilet and more important let you have time to buy kits!
Hi Alex. It was great to meet you there. I will definitely come over to the shop in December to buy some Outlaw paints. Thanks Doug😊
I feel your pain! I worked the show circuit for quite a few years and have to say that the moment you start to do overnighters your profit and loss takes a pounding. I rarely ever did a show solo, for the obvious comfort reasons as well as security (thieves are, unfortunately, very active at shows). You are ideally situated to take in a lot of decent shows closer to your base that will give you a much more worthwhile experience and be more beneficial to your regular shop business without having to pay through the nose to IPMS for the 'privilege' of trading at Telford.
Great video! Thanks for the small business's perspective Alex! WRT to pricing, a couple of thoughts:
1. Maybe exposure is more important to larger businesses so the cost of attending events is absorbed into a Marketing budget, which a smaller business may not specifically have?
2. Table cost. Are they priced according to popularity and/or how many of each they have, not according to size? Lesser popular layouts may be priced higher because the IPMS know they won't sell many anyway.
Excellent Alex! It was great to meet you and hang out for a while. Glad you got back safe. Cheers!
Hey thanks John - seeing you and your daughter was one of the highlights of SMW for me, so glad you made it!
A really interesting article and thank you very much for posting. I can see that being a small trader is incredibly difficult and your information about it just reinforces that point having to go without going to the loo or eating all day is not something many of us want to do.please ignore all the people below thing they know everything there is to know about business. I’m sure you know much better than any of us so I wish you every luck in your future trading and hope that the investment in the show was worthwhile. maybe see you there next year.
Thank you Alex for a view from the other side. It really is interesting. I've often wondered how traders make a profit.
Maybe you have already thought of it, but my brother in law (god rest his soul) used to do "comic coms" and he had a small sack truck that converted to a flat truck too to get all his stuff in and out.
Yeah, absolutely - I hadn't initially planned to take much at all, so everything was a bit last minute on that front!
An interesting and informative insight into the "Dark" side of attending a model show. I've not attended the Telford show, but I do try and support my local show in Thornbury. Over the last few shows I've noticed that the number of smaller traders have stopped attending even this show. I know the organisers have to cover costs etc. but by pricing out the smaller traders like yourself they are effectively stifling (or killing) the role that local smaller traders play in hobbies of all types. I attended the model show at the REME museum in Lynham a couple of weeks ago and the majority of traders appeared to be smaller traders, it was great. I'm also attending a similar model show at the Army Air Corps museum in a couple of weeks. I think that the bonus to both of these shows is the addition of seeing the exhibits in the museum(s) as well as visiting the traders and modelling exhibits. In Lynham there were some local model clubs, covering different aspects of modelling that you may not see at bigger shows.
Good luck with additional sales based on visiting the show. I hope this video goes some way in getting the powers to be at IPMS to revise their charging scales. Thank you for sharing.
@@davidjowett8195 Agreed - exhibitions held in museums have multiple benefits - the one at the Helicopter museum in the SW earlier in the year was a great example.
As for trade pricing, it's a tricky one I know, and I don't want to seem like I'm just advocating for lower prices, I just think they have to be realistic, transparent and with some understanding of both sides. Relying on big traders is risky because if they cancel, you can lose enough revenue from that as to make your show untenable, and if it's the same ones at each show, they're not much of a draw. Lots of smaller traders is good for draw and mitigating risk, but too many and there's no room for some larger ones....
I went to the Guildex model railway show about 3 times when it was held at Telford. over 10 years ago the wi-fi was hopeless. I don't think it got any better at any time. The Gauge O guild now hold Guildex at the Staffordshire county show ground. As far as I know it has no Wi-fi problems.
Interesting to see the numbers and costs, It's actually cheaper than I expected it to be to have a table, although I recognise that hobby shops are not goldmines and flush with cash. I don't think you can analyse the pitch size/cost too much, as they'll charge what they think the market will bear, but possibly worth considering teaming up with another trader to (a) share costs and (b) allow a certain amount of time away from the table. Edited to add : Forgot to thank you for the video, I stumbled across it, and it's worked as advertising as I now know where your shop is!
I can't wait for this video,as I actually purchased from you at Telford,so I want to see the way you saw this weekend. You had some great offers,and I can't wait to make that small Hasegawa 1/72nd A6M5 and 1/48th Academy Spitfire Mark XIV.I will make sure to be here during the premiere.
Hope you enjoyed it!
Awesome.....i might be in the minority but i prefer to see what the vendors had for sale and who they are rather thsn see the models on display so looking forward to this very much.👍👍👍
Totally agree - for me the show is too large to really look over all of the display stands. I always tended to focus on the traders and the competition.
You are certainly not alone, I gave up on Telford three years ago and now left the IPMS. I never visited the competition tables. I have heard similar economic truths from other traders who subsequently gave up attending.
Great video showing a different perspective. Your "goodwill" must surely have benefited. Thanks
I hope so!
A great insight, thanks for sharing your thoughts
As always, very interesting objective (scientific) perspective and conclusion - promotionv profit dependingon size. I meant to buy sprue goo and have a chat but each time I passed you were engaged with others which I took as a positive, ie you weren't sitting there bored like some other traders.
@@petercoghlan8896 Yeah I ran out of SprueGoo - definitely need to take more next time!
Very interesting and well put together video.
Thanks Alex for your insight.
Ian
My pleasure!
@ 👍🏼
very interesting point of view. i hope to go for the first time next year so my see you there.
Very interesting perspective Alex. Good talking to you on Saturday and hopefully with Outlaw paints landing soon, I will hopefully get an order placed before Christmas
Sounds good!
Gutted I missed you, just walked by :/ should have checked the corners, your even parked next to my mates van who had a stall, he said it was really busy for him as a trader, also you said about the wi fi... the bad wifi caused my card to get banned lucky my mate was with me and could lend me the money for kits until I got internet connection to pay him back
Having been going to SMW for years now, this explains why the smaller venders tend to be there for a year or two then suddenly stop attending.
From my own point of view I think a restructuring of the prices for traders would be in order to accomodate the smaller traders.
IPMS members were polled earlier this year on making various changes, including paying towards SMW, so there might be changes ahead.
@@arrrgee fingers crossed! I'm happy to consult if anyone from IPMS is interested.... 😁
Very interesting video, I came on the Sunday prepared to spend a lot of money and left having spent less than £50 all in. It’s a great show but I got the impression a lot of the best kits go on the Saturday, I popped over to your stall on the Sunday afternoon and it looked like you had sold most of your stock and there was very little left. I hope you come next year and I think bigger is probably better for the traders….
Very interesting view from the other side so to speak. As you mentioned about the tables, some traders dont use them but because thats the "space" they have paid for we still had to put them out on Friday morning, then remove them if not needed. The WIFi is provided by the TIC and like all centres their free WIFI is shocking at times. I did come to your stand briefly but you had a lot of people around so carried on mooching, as my time was also limited to look around
@@alexmoore2831 I understand about the tables, but that's my point - with better communication (ie any) then only those needed could be hired, saving the ipms money. The WiFi isn't free, it's a private one provided just for the traders, and whilst it might be provided by the TIC, the IPMS needs to hold them to account - especially since the amount of money being paid, again, by traders
Thanks for the insight. I once attended a model show near Detroit as a trader and had a similar experience: insufficient sales to cover my costs, begging passing friends to watch my table for a bathroom or food break, and to add to that, it was during the winter and I had to drive home in snow. Never again. BUT - will you have another video about Valeriia and ICM? Your ICM videos last year were some of my favorite content on all of TH-cam.
@@ericchristopher1687 Join the MMM stream tomorrow night.....
Spotted you in the Corner, Thought you were just a you tube channel so did not take a gander. Next time. interesting video.
an interesting insight into the show game. never been to Telford, its a bit far, but I only really go to shows to stock up on kits and perhaps snag a bargain. less traders, less draw for me, and I can't be the only one?
A great video highlighting issues for vendors at SMW. I attended this year and many other years as a customer. I find it difficult to understand what the IPMS direction is for the show. The venue is clearly not big enough to host both a large display area and a significant number of vendors and customers. People were constantly complaining about the retailer's being pushed into smaller and smaller spaces. Some were so small looking around was impossible and I and many other people just walked past rather than play the rucksack barge game! So much space is occupied by club tables, which is interesting but the vendors pay for the show. I think an overhaul of the show concept needs to happen. Better spacing for vendors needs to happen so the public can browse for items. Club tables should be consolidated into a single location, allowing a split of club viewers and buying public to happen across the halls. Mixing them closes the space to a minimum for everyone. Perhaps a review of Telford as a suitable venue is due.
I think everything you've said there is absolutely valid - please do forward those thoughts to the IPMS!
Great little video mate 👍
Very well presented, I wonder how much Wonderland and Hannants make at this show
For sure that would be interesting - bearing in mind they have higher travel, accommodation, food and stand costs, plus the burden of having to pay staff (something I don't have to factor in just yet)
Great to see you had a good show Alex!
Sorry it didn't bring in lots of profit bud!
Out of interest did the Heller Warning Star sell?
It did, yes
I'll be honest, I saw your stand in the corner there and on Sunday it didn't look like you had much to offer. Didn't really draw much attention in and I walked by. I knew of your channel though, so recognised the name.
I am looking forward to next year, hopefully my health will allow me to travel to telford for this event
Very interesting perspective. It is useful to understand what the costs are for traders and how they view it. Everyone needs to be able to make a profit (which could be financial or increased visibility and recognition) but the IPMS does seem to have a weird pricing scale anyway that you look at it.
12 hours without any comfort break? When you get older that becomes a fantasy. 😁
Well I'm no spring chicken but a career in countrywide sales prepared me well!!
@ I used to be able to drive London to Edinburgh non-stop but no more! I am at the planning routes around services stage. Too much coffee doesn't help - don't have espresso/coffee as a second hobby might be an idea for me. Thanks again for really interesting model related content that is not just reviews/builds.
Interesting hearing it from a traders pov , gotta hope you got punters coming to visit you after seeing you @Telford.
Me too!
@@MannsModelMoments 👍👍
Bugger, i live not too far from Telford and completely forgot this event was on.
Would have been nice to pop down 😤
Next year??
Hi Alex , was good to meet you for a chat. I did notice many vendors asking for cash payments later on. How hard can it be to get WiFi working? Hopefully you'll get to visit Japan sooner than later.
Likewise a pleasure to see you too, and fingers crossed for a Japanese excursion in the future!
The fact that power is not included drove me crazy at larger exhibitions - you need some very custom payment methods to work all weekend without a charging point - My experience of larger model railway shows was that you were almost an inconvenience to them (NEC I'm looking at you). It would be nice to have calm access to set up. It would be nice to maybe get a hot drink sometime through the 12 hour shift you are pulling. It would be really nice not to have theft from the stand, or for that theft to be treated as a crime and not a cost of attending... for some reason I don't do shows any more.
I think a couple of hot drinks provided for traders brought to the stand would be very well received and appreciated!
I don't expect many of the traders there make a profit, the type of people who attend are all looking to get a reduced price! the people who do generally make a profit are the organisers. At least your pop up standa are re-usable!!
Wait, what.....the Lysander kit comes with pilot and gunner figures?!?!?!? 😮
Oh yes!
@MannsModelMoments So they DO listen....?....!
Wifi at Telford ( no matter what show is on…and I have been to many different ones!) has been sh*t for years!! So nothing has changed
I doubt that it is the IPMS that sets the prices and what you have to pay extra for or are required to pay for, it's the venue that makes the rules. The venue wants to make as much money as possible and they want you to use their tables and what ever extra items only that they provide.
I don't think you're correct here - I believe the IPMS rents the space and the tables separately, and they govern the layout. Extras I get may be the venue, but this is where the IPMS need to exercise some "chutzpah" and negotiate hard - they could take this event elsewhere, but I doubt they've even looked into this.
@@MannsModelMoments I think you will find they have looked at alternatives, which is why they hold the event at Telford. This is an issue that is chewed over regularly in the IPMS Magazine. I do know some committee members and it's like spinning plates. Costings and traders bearing the brunt of expenses is a constant bone to be gnawed. In an ideal world, things would be rosy for all of us, but in the real world, you have to watch for the crocodiles in the swamp.
It is a very well put together video, encapsulating many salient points. I wish you success in your business, but it seldom comes overnight. It's for you to evaluate the economics or PR value of future attendances. This was the first year, aside from Covid, that I have not attended, for the past 12 years. Next year I will be back with a new club table, so I may get to see what you decide. As an aside, the table hire used to be 'stack em high and sort yourselves out'. I have done the breakdown in the past, but it's now in the hands of the contractors. Now in my 70s, it's nice not to have to clear up after everyone has gone home, especially having travelled right across country and been there since Friday afternoon setting up, and commuting to the hotel 15miles away for 3 nights. We as a hobbyist group are not getting younger, and it's always good to see new/young blood coming to the show in whatever capacity. It costs everyone to attend, and punters often spend many hundreds of pounds at Telford on top of their personal expenses. The show is there to be a show and a gathering - a bit like going to Greece for a stag night. You pays your money and you takes your chance.
Alex, would it be better if a number of small traders banded together and took tables in a more central location, sharing out the expense evenly? I’m thinking traders with products that complement each other. 🤔
Not a bad idea - I've no idea how the IPMS would work with people to do it, and it would take some organising. I've already wondered if I should get two one-table stands, one for Mann's Model Moments shop and one for my YT channel - cheaper than a x2 table...would the IPMS allow it? Well, strictly speaking they're two different entities, so they should, but it would highlight a potential loophole....which kinda proves the point - there should be no "loopholes" for a cheaper way of doing the same thing at a show!
Think trade shows have to be treated as part sales and part advertising and marketing .Getting contacts leads and new customers aware of your brand/shop etc is what it's about...use sales margins you may make to offset some of the cost....then it's worth it
@@paulfuchs4002 Agreed, but that's a difficult line to walk....and also to sell in mid-lathe companies. I know we had this discussion in leadership meetings in the scientific arena, and when I worked for well-known companies, always advised NOT to do them, as they weren't cost effective. No new customers, people already knew us, so the meeting needed us more than we needed them. The IPMS needs to be careful they don't impose too much on big companies like Airfix etc or the may do the same...Revell already did for a number of years, for example
We're did you stay it looks very nice
The Ironworks Aparthotel - they're very reasonable little self-contained apartments with a pub, several takeaways, ATM and convenience store right next to them, just under 3 miles from the ICC
@MannsModelMoments many thanks
Some of your costs should really be amortised over more than one show. Your banners and insurance for example. But yes it is expensive. I exhibited for two years, and living only 13 miles away I could skip accommodation and most travel costs, but even with more generous margins than yours it was only a small profit for a lot of hard work.
Insurance is one-off exhibition insurance...Banners won't get used at another show this tax year, so unfortunately not....
I agree that SMW is an expensive proposition for all traders which is not helped by the increased cost pass through by the venue to the IPMS. I also agree that the Wi-Fi is shockingly poor and that the International Centre really needs to up it's connectivity, but then they would pass that cost on to show organisers as well, making it even more expensive. Sad really.
Seems like you need someone to accompany you to make the conditions acceptable. The cost to attend seems to be exorbitant...
Indeed - but with another participant the accommodation and food costs also double....
Well you shouldn't count all the pop-ups and banners in this one go, because you can reuse them.
Yes I should, because they still needed purchasing. They need to be accounted for in the tax year and they're not being reused within it. I wouldn't account for them at a future meeting, of course, unless I did a larger stand and required more.
150£ for 6 hours drive in total? Wow
The HMRC reimbursement rate for mileage is 45p per mile, which includes fuel and wear on the vehicle (tires, oil etc - imagine you don't own a car, the hire would cost you that extra for the journey).
It actually cost me around £50 in fuel used. If you want to calculate the cost/profitability on that basis then just take £100 from the cost, and remove £300 or £400 from the break even figures, making them £1950 and £2600 respectively - it still doesn't come close to changing the result.
People tend to forget that a business can't think about things the way a person does - like just because you have a car doesn't make use of it somehow "free". Everything in a business has to be accounted for, amortised etc. Cars need insuring, maintaining, decrease in value etc etc.
No power to stand is a bit of a joke really.
Its obvious that from a business perspective the show is a no go . Maybe next year, just do a " meet and greet " . If enough show the IPMS that these costs are unacceptable then it will change after all , no traders = no public.
Using gov't rates on mileage is disingenuous, as it doesn't reflect reality. Also, I don't think you would have refrained from eating food if you hadn't attended.
This isn't how business works, and I wouldn't have spent £50 on food if I were at home. When people travel for work, subsistence is paid for.
Also, HMRC rates reflect using a private vehicle to include wear and tear, otherwise I'd have the costs of hiring a vehicle for the event - so these rates are EXACTLY what should be used.
Very interesting breakdown of the substantial costs of exhibiting, but I will quibble over your transport/fuel cost, which you can reclaim from HMRC as a legitimate business expense, therefore your numbers and argument are automatically suspect.
Banners can be reused as can the pop-ups, so really far less than £100.
By my reckoning, true costs would be in the region of £520.
Break even following your formula would be £1560.
Appreciate the event is not directly profitable for you, but ideally, you will be looking at goodwill, loyalty, etc.
I'm interested in the foundation of the assertion you make regarding the funding of SMW as no figures are publicly available.
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the difficulties experienced by small and medium-sized businesses, especially those working in niche environments (and we all know model kits are very niche). There is no LMS less than 50 minutes from me, they've all disappeared.
I'm from the 2 bob generation agonising for hours in Woolies over what bagged kit I could afford, and wanted every month, so honestly, despite my questions/criticism, I am on your side
Cost of transport is NOT just fuel - a business has to account for everything - use of a car is not "free" - it needs to be insured, maintained etc. If you don't believe this, try hiring a car for the weekend for £0.
Banners are reusable, but are a cost to the business. I'm not using them again in this tax year, so they will be accounted for this year, so the full cost. That will lower my cost for NEXT year, unless I go for a bigger stand, where I will need more.
@@kitbag9033 oh, for SMW, figures absolutely are public ally available as accounts are published to members every year - we discussed this on Airfix and Chill the last time these were sent out
YOU'VE JUST FOUND OUT WHAT US EX-MEMBERS HAVE KNOWN FOR YEARS.
I've only been a member of the IPMS to get entry to Telford - I think much of the current membership is likewise.
A few points to raise against your comments number one these sort of shows are not designed for small traders. They will happily take your money and laugh all the way to the bank with it. You are never gonna cover your costs or make any real profit on the day when you’re taking the consideration like you said in the video, all of the overheads Number two don’t go to this sort of event on your own. It is completely bloody irresponsible and I mean bloody irresponsible even just to the single point of your health to go on your own where you cannot go to the toilet when you need to you cannot go get food and drink when you need to especially drink for God sake it’s common sense. Take a mate with you or a spouse the best they’ll do is they get in the show for free to help you out and you swap one goes and has a look round the show and the other one keep an eye on the store
Number three is probably a reason why you did it but why did you push your tables all the way back to the wall? Anybody walking down the road from the store next to you? Won’t see you there. They will assume that last that store next to you is the last one I’m not walk any further and have a look if there was a line for you to have your stall behind have your stall literally just behind that line and then have your seating behind there
I’ve done these type of events with a friend of mine. I used to do models diecast cars as a living these lessons we learnt pretty quickly through all the years we did it going through the airshow circuit convention and model show circuit for God sake if you go next year, you don’t go on your own that’s just silly for a few reasons like I’ve already stated
Wow, a lot of incorrect assumptions and opinion here!
@@MannsModelMoments hi, he may have made incorrect assumptions about some of the points , but going to a show on your own wasn't one of them, it was maybe a little naive to assume you could survive the whole day without a break (of some sort). Surely position in the hall would be based on when you booked, there were traders already booking for next year at the event. Normally there is a coffee/ snack trolley making the rounds of the traders for exactly your needs (not a commode however) but it is provided by the centre, at centre prices and at their discretion. I wonder also if you approached (or stopped one on the way past) a member of the show staff , the "guys wearing yellow" to discuss your need for an emergency comfort break, you may have been surprised by their reaction, especially as they represent the enemy, they may have minded your stand as a courtesy, obviously no sales would have been made nor would this become the norm or would extended periods of time be acceptable (as they still have a hall to manage).
@@Keeldem Nope, not naive at all - I've attended many dozens of conferences and trade shows and know exactly what it's like. Also no mobile coffee/snack trolley making the rounds and position of stand is NOT based on booking time.