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I seriously doubt the clock has anything to do with it.. which would never have been a problem if MLB had merely enforced the 20 second (nobody on base) rule that has been there for longer than I've been here.. (see '60's and before).. The pitches both in velocity and type are a different story... my sweeper never bothered me.. but in my days of playing (nowhere near mlb levels).. even mlb pitchers were throwing on average in the high 80's/low 90's.. with only a very few (Nolan Ryan) really getting a 3rd digit in the velo... Guys like Maddox would not even be looked at today and he prided himself on throwing low pitchcounts... his idea was to NOT strike you out, but to get you to hit HIS pitch for an out.. and he was good at it.. strikeouts create high pitch counts...
great point on K's... velocity isn't trying to induce ground balls... it's trying to strike somebody out, which requires a lot more pitches thrown in the long run
Maddux said, “The best outcome for a pitcher is an out on the first pitch.” But these days you gotta miss bats. My first pro workout was with the As in 2010 and my buddy told me I’d be shocked by how far MLB balls carry. It was literally home run derby. I hit a lot of hr’s in college but never imagined a jam shot to center field with a wood bat.
@@jeffrey.a.hanson And how many times do we hear that the balls are NOT more lively? Though one of ours, MO pitched for years with the same idea... better to get 3 outs on 3 pitches..
8:52 The answer is an emphatic YES! The fact that pitchers placed on the IL went up 129% from 2010 to 2021 BEFORE the pitch clock was implemented is proof enough. Heck, I'd guess that there was a major spike around 2015 or 2016 with the advent of Statcast and the increased emphasis on analytics as a result.
A lot of factors (increased velocity, max effort, different pitches contributing to elbow strain) probably are a factor in the increased injuries to pitchers, much more than a clock that's been in use just over 1 season. What's the percentage of pitchers that are brought up to the big leagues who don't throw 95mph+? A Greg Maddux or Jamie Moyer would probably be overlooked by the majority of teams today.
@@gumball3D I remember pitchers like John Smoltz going 6+ closer to the end of their careers. The change in pitching philosophy is definitely the primary culprit. That being said, at this time, I can also see the timer exacerbating the problem as a possibility. However, one season with the pitch timer is not enough data to confirm or deny that possibility.
I don't think the pitch timer is the main culprit. The emphasis on throwing every pitch 100 MPH and the crackdown on sticky stuff (which pitchers compensate for by trying to change grips and throw harder) are much bigger culprits. The clock has little to do with it, if anything.
@@traci635 Let’s use logic here. The issue is not the clock. It’s the effort behind every pitch. The rest could be 20 seconds. It could be 10 minutes. It’s irrelevant. These guys are out there trying to hit 100 on the radar gun on every fastball. They are throwing faster breaking pitches with tighter grips chasing additional movement. An extra 15-20 seconds between pitches that the pitch clock “takes away” does not change the forces being applied on the elbow and shoulder that throwing the baseball in the manner they are throwing it requires.
I have a player at Duke and he said, “The ONLY two things pitchers work on is velocity and spin rate. Elbow surgery is an EXPECTED outcome and of no concern as it does not hurt draft stock.” Convince me it wouldn’t be FUN to throw 100mph.
This coincides with the rise of sticky stuff and the pursuit of spin. Pitchers got used to that easily induced scruptious spinach and now they have to work for it and in doing so tey're shredding their elbows
I'm glad that you hit on the idea that it might be a combination of several factors (max velocity, increased spin, and reduced rest time between pitches). I'll be the first to say that, as a fan, I loathe the pitch clock. It brings nothing to the game, and in fact steals time away from fans doing something they enjoy. But for less selfish reasons, I hope they figure out what the problem (or combination of problems) is.
Agreed. Manfreds goal to me during his regime is to appeal less to true baseball fans and more to casual viewers. That's why his logic was "too boring, shorten games"......he was looking at it from the perspective of a casual.
Gotta add that some of these guys spend the off season at Driveline or other pitching camps trying to add one or two mph to their delivery. Not giving themselves any down time...pushing themselves to the limit all year long.
I remember that, when the league reduced the runners-on clock from 20s to 18s, Max Scherzer said on FT that he'd talked to a doctor who said that the number of injuries hadn't gone up, but the severity of those injuries had. If that's true, then a metric like # days on IL is more informative than # of injuries, and MLB's study isn't looking at the right thing.
Great info, thank you! I was unaware of the issue. My uneducated guess would be less the clock and more the required increase in gripping the ball to get these high spin rates. Maybe the lack of sticky stuff on the ball is having an effect? Something to consider. Maybe some pre-approved sticky stuff should be allowed so they don't have to grip so hard? But, would it stop them from squeezing the crap out of the ball? Who knows. If only there was an outspoken, thoughtful, perfect-game throwing pitcher you could bring on for some discussion.... :) Keep up the great work. No matter what goes on with the A's, you've made a fan for life, sir.
Im no doctor but i dont belive this is a major pitch timer issue, this is more of a volocity issue, not just the player issues, but i miss the pitchers who could throw 8 or 9 innings using multiple pitches, not all high speed stuff. I think these kinda things have a way of balencing themselves out.
It all started when they allowed umpires to check hands, hats and belts for any sticky stuff! They are getting hurt because they have to grip the ball harder because the pitchers are scared to use anything to help with the grip. Sticky stuff ban was 2021 . The pitch timer is comical
Grip 😂😂😂 If you think pitchers used “ sticky stuff” for grip, then I’ve got a beach house in Arizona I’d like to sell you. Don’t be foolish. They used it for spin rate to increase movement on pitches….nothing more, nothing less.
The main reason is simple Pitchers are throwing so god damn hard it is destroying elbows As Chris Bassitt said in an interview at the start of the season, pitchers have to shoot for 97,98 hell 100 MPH on a consistent basis or they are deemed not as good Look at how many pitchers are coming in throwing 100MPh on the regular and especially how long some are We live in an Era where a pitcher not getting Tommy John surgery is surprising and that is silly. Could the pitch clock make these issues a bit worse, yes but the fact is to me that these issues started way before the pitch timer was ever even thought of
EXACTLY. Glad MLB pushed back and told the MLBPA, “No, It’s YOU and your 100 MPH velocity and spin rates doing this to yourself. Go learn the history of baseball” The MLBPA is such a typical piece of trash union
these players very well know they can get injured, and still, all of them continue to play the game. no one is forcing them to make 10 million a year with a slight risk of throwing out their arms
Exactly...but the player evaluation people need to come off that mentality too(looking at you Tampa, Dodgers, and those who try to copy how they do things)
I don’t think it’s the pitch clock or velocity. Nolan Ryan pitched at a pace well within the pitch clock timeframe. He even threw at batters that took too long to get back in the box. I think the biggest problem has been lowering the seams on the baseball which has caused pitchers to do more to get the ball to move, putting more stress on the arm, especially the elbow.
One college conference started using the pitch clock in 2010, all of college the following year. AZ fall league got it in 2014 and MILB in 2015. I can see that contributing to part of the increase but it can't explain it all. The average ball game has around 280-300 pitches thrown in total to batters. With old games that lasted 3 hours and the new rules take 30 minutes off that, the old games had a pitch every 36 seconds and shorter games are at 30 seconds. So now the question is do those extra 6 seconds of rest between pitches really make the difference on the pitching arm?
Let’s think through this logically, MLBPA. There is ZERO difference between 20 seconds and 40 seconds when it comes to pitching at maximal effort. It could be 2 minutes between pitches, but if your intention is to throw at 100% effort, the rest time is irrelevant. It’s the amount of pitches you’re throwing at max effort chasing velocity that’s doing the damage…. Let’s also be real honest here. The upward trajectory for injuries among pitchers WELL pre-dates the pitch clock, so let’s not pretend that this came out of nowhere.
If the pitch clock has any impact on injury, my hypothesis is that it has far less impact than the many other factors. I remember in little league and high school we were limited on how many pitches or innings we pitched per day. In addition, the more pitches we had in a day the more days off we had to take before we could pitch again. Perhaps it is time MLB considered a league wide restriction similar to what we have at the high school level? That won’t eliminate all injuries, but if there is a significant correlation between injury and pitch time, then we should consider action that would significantly lower injury. Health of players should always take priority over everything else, in my opinion.
I'm not sure it's the pitch clock, although that could be a part of it. Shortening the clock doesn't help MLB's case. It's the chase for velocity and spin rate that is doing this to pitchers in order to get paid, but less time for recovery between pitches can't help.
I'm amazed they were able to get the players union to agree to a pitch clock at all. If I was a pitcher, it would suck not having a few extra seconds to compose yourself after loading the bases or giving a homer, not to mention the arm having less chance to recover between throws.
I'm honestly surprised they shorten the pitch clock. One, because MLB loves the money, and now there's less time for commercial time. So I was actually very surprising when they shortened it.. not surprised too if the quicker clock is inducing injuries faster. Though a big focus on velo from pitchers is also a factor
This is about my take on the issue. The emphasis on velocity, spin rate, etc. to maximize the performance of a pitch is definitely the main culprit of the problem. An accurate comparison to this is the fact that when driving, accelerating quickly will put more wear and tear on a vehicle than gradually accelerating to desired speed. As for the question of the pitch timer making the problem worse, I can definitely see why there is concern on MLBPA and the athletes. Going back to the car analogy, city driving is harder on a vehicle than highway driving since city driving involves a lot more cycles of accelerating and braking in the same time period than highway driving. Therefore, the same vehicle owned by an aggressive driver with more city miles would be more likely to have major issues with his vehicle sooner than an aggressive driver doing more highway miles. As mentioned in the video, whether or not this principle holds true in the baseball is hard to say at the moment due to the seemingly lack of data, but it is a possibility. Drawing a conclusion either way based on one season with the timer is like a hunter zeroing his rifle for deer season by only firing one shot at the range before making adjustments to his scope. It is possible that the numbers of pitchers on the injured list being slightly lower in 2023 than the couple years before is an anomaly in the data just as it's possible that the point of impact vs point of aim of one shot from a hunter's rifle is due to a bullet being out of spec made it past quality control at the factory. Time will tell which is the answer.
I'm a Houston Native and watching this reminded me of a part-time Houston pitcher, Lance McCullers. Look at his pitch selection and his innings pitched over the past 5 seasons. He's never had to deal with the pitch clock and all of his injuries mimic what you see in the league.
This all goes back to pitchers being babied at not just the Little League level, but HS and College too. When did arm injuries begin to increase? When a pitcher wasn't expected to be able to throw a complete game. This is on the MLBPA trying to get more pitcher jobs (you need less relievers if you have 5 or 6 guys that can go 9). This is on MLB for removing ANY sort of grip assistance from the ball. This is on youth baseball for limiting pitchers ability to actually reach their physical peak.
They should use the baseballs that were used in the last Olympics. A little tackier than the MLB ball, and everyone seemed to like it. Increasing tackiness a little would reduce the need for dangerous grips.
I remember being told that sliders were harmful to the elbow when i was in little league. Whether or not that true, that was at least what thought for us was in 1987
The MLBPA are really grasping at straws. Arm injuries for pitchers in high school are just as out of control where there is no pitch clock. I'll go with that Dr Meister's opinion about modern pitching styles contributing to these arm injuries, there doesn't seem to be anybody that pitches like Greg Maddux anymore.
Todays pitchers are too athletic and toned so injury happens more often ..There was a time when teams would have a starter and a closer ..Now there needs to be a starter , middle reliever , set up man and a closer . Lean muscle mass leads to more injury because of the extreme tension put on joints .
Wonder if discussing with with the pitching ninja and other pitchers on how maybe they can change how pitches are thrown? Seems like with the "sweeper" being popular. If there's ways not to put so much pressure on the ligaments when throwing? Just thinking out loud cause I have no clue.
Pitchers are throwing too hard. Thats it. I solved the issue. If you have a kid in baseball every coach he will have from now till college will try to maximize his speed. Thats it. If you have a kid who could pitch like Greg Maddux that wouldnt be good enough and scouts would bypass him for the guy who throws like John Rocker. This is 100% true. The Clock has nothing to do with the injuries. Some pitchers didnt even need a lot of time to throw there next pitch. Is the players union saying each hard thrower needs 5 minutes? What should happen is have any pitch thrown over 100 mph be called a ball. Yea i said it. If a player swings and misses its still a strike but if the pitch goes pass 100 mph even if its in the strike zone its called a ball. If a player is hit with a ball over 95 mph the pitcher is thrown out and suspended for 5 games. This would force pitchers to pitch instead of throwing the ball as hard as possible.
Personally I love the pitch clock but didn’t like shortening the time at the major league level… the current clock of 15/18 is the system MiLB has been using for nearly a decade so would be a better study sample wise to see injuries across low A to Triple A rather than just the 2 weeks of this season. As much as I hate to say it as well but arm injuries are just inevitable, it sucks but true at the same time.
IMO the pitch clock is not the cause of the injuries. It’s pitchers trying to throw 100 mph and high rates of spin/break. GM’s would be fools to give long term contracts to any pitcher.
Too lazy to look up the data, but MLB pitchers throw way less pitches / innings than their historical counterparts. But, you add in way more use when they were younger with travel teams. Lots of different moving parts.
At this point the focus should be on what are the easy changes to help pitchers. 6 or 7 man rotations. Add an extra 3 pitching spots and an extra general use roster spot. 30 man roster. It seems we see more starters than relievers as well
Adding more pitching spots would actually make the problem worse. If anything you need to take some away and force teams to value durability and efficiency. More slots just gives managers more arms to burn through.
your UCL isn’t fully developed til around 26 years old, these injuries are caused by teaching 14-23 year olds (if not younger) to pitch as hard as possible for their fastball and to throw stressful pitches like sweepers
Hopefully not a long term unintended consequence of the pitch clock. It is way too early to tell if, in the long term, the clock causes injuries. In the short term, it seems pretty plausible, as pitchers who haven't adjusted properly to the pitch clock rhythm may be forced to hurry and end up not using their natural motion. Time will tell, so to speak
If you work on an assembly line and the work-pace is increased the body is more prone to repetitive stress injury, absent a corresponding improvement in production techniques. I've witnessed this. If the contemporary MLB pitcher is already near the human body's upper limit due to increased velocity and spin, decreasing the time between pitches will increase the likelihood for injury. I think over-specialization, analytics, and commercialization have taken a lot away from the beauty of the game. One of the unique and appealing aspects of the sport was the absence of a clock. It was more enjoyable when I was young in the 1960s. But maybe I'm just being a nostalgic old guy who pines for the "good old days".
As the video points out injuries have been rising long before the pitch Clock. The clock being introduced in 2023 doesn't explain why there was such an increase from 2012 - 2022. You can hate the clock but it's not the cause of these injuries.
The introduction of the pitch clock last year clearly caused the doubling of pitching injuries over the last decade and a half. Clearly the pitch clocks are running at 1.21 gigawatts and caused a temporal spreading of pitching injuries, but everyone who's anyone knows that 1.21 gigawatts is only enough power to go back 15 years so that's why it started then. Clear as day.
You want starting pitchers to go long without getting hurt? They have to understand it is a marathon not a lightning dash. I would look at hockey and implement a 2 point system for baseball. You win and your starter goes a full 7, you get 2 points. You lose and your starter still goes 7 full, you still get one point. One point for the win. This would make teams and pitchers have to step back and figure out a long term strategy for staying healthy and NOT throwing 101 on the third pitch in the first. AKA they would have to learn how to pitch. Move the ball up/down, in/out without blasting the cannon and hoping it ends up where the catcher can catch it. As we have seen, pretty much all major leaguers can and will time up velocity so you are never going to just blow it by everyone every inning. Also the young kids coming up now are "one sport kids" and do not get full overall balanced muscle development as those playing 3 sports (baseball, football, basketball). I think parents push kids too hard too fast way too soon and that is more to blame as by the time they get to the bigs, their pitching elbow is living on a prayer. So what we are seeing at the major league level could very well just be the end product of decades of pushing youth and it's just now starting to filter up through the ranks. As far as the timer goes, the modern players brought it upon themselves by dilly dallying forever without throwing the ball and forced MLB's hand. I watch a lot of old time games on Fubo (MLB's great games channel) and the pace was not bad at all back then with no clock. One did not see the ridiculous time consuming batting rituals before every pitch like we did just prior to the installation of the clock. A personal opinion with absolutely no fact finding or research done, so take it all with a grain of salt if you will.
@@johnwayne9828 Changing the clock isn't going to stop injuries. They were already rising exponentially before the clock. It's the focus on velo and spin rate.
@@kjorlaug1 do you honestly see teams telling guys to pitch softer and dont worry about spin rate? No. The only thing they can actually change is the clock. Genies out of the bottle with velo and spin rate, theres no putting it back in.
It’s over throwing and the new junk they’re throwing. Another potential factor is the fact that umpires are checking pitchers every game. These guys used to have access to all kinds of foreign substances and objects.
The clock was used in the minors snd didnt cause a rash of injuries, so the union argument that it is the clock is groundless. Also, isnt it ripe that the best thing that happened in years in baseball from a fan’s perspective, is already under attack by the union?!
Pitch timer should increase by 2sec after 2 innings pitched. 4sec after 4 innings pitched, 6sec after 6 innings pitched, and increased by 10 seconds for the 9th inning pitched. Once a pitcher is replaced the clock is reset. If a pitcher is in his 9th inning of work then he is likely going for a CGSO, a NoNo, or a PG... and I don't think the crowd will mind too much if he takes a few extra breathes in that scenario.
It has more to do with the baseball changes and the ban of spider tack and any substance to add extra grip, besides the rosin bag. I hate to say it, but Trevor Bauer was right about all of this. When a pitcher can’t grip a baseball like in years past, they are now forced to torque their arm more to generate the required spin needed for the pitch to be effective. It blows my mind how no one is talking about this!!
MLBPA isn't wrong. Guys throwing as hard as they can with as much spin rate as they can with minimal time to recover between exertions is going to lead to more injuries. Those of us who go to the gym know of the importance of rest and recovery between exertions. While the exertion time is much shorter with individual pitches, there's an average of 15-20 of those exertions in less than 10 minutes. It's going to add up.
Training has to be significant here or lack of it. If they trained one way for years and now that process has to be sped up, things are going to pop. I would bet the next generation of pitcher wont have it as bad, but at what cost?. Maybe the should increase the pitch time a bit.
Tribe has lost 2 of our most important pitchers to tommy John already this season, I am absolutely sick. I have faith in our guys but biebs was absolutely slinging it.
If I force a carpenter, or a car mechanic to do their job in a fraction of the time they had previously, they are going to get hurt. It's just common sense. A rushed job is not a good job in any profession, why should baseball be any different?
Curious if the same rate of injuries has been observed in the minors, international leagues, and to a lesser extent college pitchers. These topics also tend to revisit the pitch count philosophy and if its having a negative impact for some athletes by hindering pitchers to ability to build up arm stamina.
It seems like its certain that the pitch is clock is not the cause of UCL injuries but it definitely has exacerbated the problem. Manfred's MLB just keeps messing up with every decision that they make .
I cant believe that mlb and players dont understand how to avoid injuries and why theyre on the rise. Is for one thing and very simple. They do not train for withstanding more throws they inly train for increasing velocity. Tell me which pitcher in the offseason goes all the way to 100-150 pitch bullpens? Nobody absolutely nobody. The only way to be prepared to throw 100 throws in the game is that in the offseason you slowly progress all the way to 100-150 throws. You might call me crazy to encourage offseason bullpens of 100-150 throws but its even crazier to think that 30 pitch bullpens will prepare you to throw 100 in the game. That is foolish nonsense. The arm doesnt know how many throws is doing it only knows stress. If youve only throwing 30 pitch bullpens and the increase it all of the sudden to 100 youre increasing more than double of what your body can handle. Now if you slowly progress in the offseason to 150 throws your body and arm are going to get use to that stress. But pitchers from today dont give their body the opportunity to get use to the stress. Sometimes you only need logic and common sense to solve a problem. Its ironic that sometimes common sense is the less common sense the human uses.
everyone complains about micro managing in every single thing in the world...yet everyone wants more micromanaging in baseball? Why is it bad in every other thing in the world except baseball? Remove the pitch clock. You say that they reached the desired effect, but nobody but the MLB desires faster games. The fans want their game, not a speed run. The fans pay the bills, stop screwing us.
I wonder if resting pitchers for longer periods would help with their longevity down the road. Its at least somethinf that can be done soon since we dont have any conclusive redearch results yet.
I hate to be that guy. Honestly we need to change baseball to have heavier balls or something. We shouldn’t intentionally keep things the save if it’s only injuring players. I’m not sure what but something should change to save players arms
Instead of a pitch timer, why not a game time limit like they do in Banana Ball. Then implement overtime rules is game is tied after say a 3hr time limit
No, they need to learn to play fundamental baseball. You know like the hit and run, bunt, and throwing pitches that get outs. Like others have said trying to throw 100 mph is what the problem is.
@@brodiebrazil the DH in the National League, the pitch clock, the runner on 2nd in xtra innings has already ruined tradition in MLB, so why not evolve to make the game more interesting for fans.
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I seriously doubt the clock has anything to do with it.. which would never have been a problem if MLB had merely enforced the 20 second (nobody on base) rule that has been there for longer than I've been here.. (see '60's and before).. The pitches both in velocity and type are a different story... my sweeper never bothered me.. but in my days of playing (nowhere near mlb levels).. even mlb pitchers were throwing on average in the high 80's/low 90's.. with only a very few (Nolan Ryan) really getting a 3rd digit in the velo... Guys like Maddox would not even be looked at today and he prided himself on throwing low pitchcounts... his idea was to NOT strike you out, but to get you to hit HIS pitch for an out.. and he was good at it.. strikeouts create high pitch counts...
great point on K's... velocity isn't trying to induce ground balls... it's trying to strike somebody out, which requires a lot more pitches thrown in the long run
Legend has it that somewhere there is an ump standing behind a plate still waiting on Jamie Moyer's last few MLB pitches to cross.
Maddux said, “The best outcome for a pitcher is an out on the first pitch.” But these days you gotta miss bats.
My first pro workout was with the As in 2010 and my buddy told me I’d be shocked by how far MLB balls carry. It was literally home run derby. I hit a lot of hr’s in college but never imagined a jam shot to center field with a wood bat.
@@jeffrey.a.hanson And how many times do we hear that the balls are NOT more lively? Though one of ours, MO pitched for years with the same idea... better to get 3 outs on 3 pitches..
8:52 The answer is an emphatic YES! The fact that pitchers placed on the IL went up 129% from 2010 to 2021 BEFORE the pitch clock was implemented is proof enough. Heck, I'd guess that there was a major spike around 2015 or 2016 with the advent of Statcast and the increased emphasis on analytics as a result.
A lot of factors (increased velocity, max effort, different pitches contributing to elbow strain) probably are a factor in the increased injuries to pitchers, much more than a clock that's been in use just over 1 season. What's the percentage of pitchers that are brought up to the big leagues who don't throw 95mph+? A Greg Maddux or Jamie Moyer would probably be overlooked by the majority of teams today.
Yeah, I miss when SP's didn't go all out early on and frequently went 6 innings or more.
@@gumball3D I remember pitchers like John Smoltz going 6+ closer to the end of their careers. The change in pitching philosophy is definitely the primary culprit. That being said, at this time, I can also see the timer exacerbating the problem as a possibility. However, one season with the pitch timer is not enough data to confirm or deny that possibility.
I don't think the pitch timer is the main culprit. The emphasis on throwing every pitch 100 MPH and the crackdown on sticky stuff (which pitchers compensate for by trying to change grips and throw harder) are much bigger culprits. The clock has little to do with it, if anything.
Pretty crazy that guys like Maddux / Rivera never had arm injuries and were used way more.
And, the Big Unit.
Nolan Ryan seemed to be able to stay healthy well into his 40s.
@@traci635 Let’s use logic here. The issue is not the clock. It’s the effort behind every pitch. The rest could be 20 seconds. It could be 10 minutes. It’s irrelevant. These guys are out there trying to hit 100 on the radar gun on every fastball. They are throwing faster breaking pitches with tighter grips chasing additional movement. An extra 15-20 seconds between pitches that the pitch clock “takes away” does not change the forces being applied on the elbow and shoulder that throwing the baseball in the manner they are throwing it requires.
I have a player at Duke and he said, “The ONLY two things pitchers work on is velocity and spin rate. Elbow surgery is an EXPECTED outcome and of no concern as it does not hurt draft stock.”
Convince me it wouldn’t be FUN to throw 100mph.
This coincides with the rise of sticky stuff and the pursuit of spin. Pitchers got used to that easily induced scruptious spinach and now they have to work for it and in doing so tey're shredding their elbows
The combination of spin and velocity.
I'm glad that you hit on the idea that it might be a combination of several factors (max velocity, increased spin, and reduced rest time between pitches). I'll be the first to say that, as a fan, I loathe the pitch clock. It brings nothing to the game, and in fact steals time away from fans doing something they enjoy. But for less selfish reasons, I hope they figure out what the problem (or combination of problems) is.
Agreed. Manfreds goal to me during his regime is to appeal less to true baseball fans and more to casual viewers. That's why his logic was "too boring, shorten games"......he was looking at it from the perspective of a casual.
I think the injury problem is not only pitch clock but also the slippery low quality official ball.
Pitchers rarely throw more than 5-6 innings vs complete games in the earlier decades. Its the strain of throwing at max level vs 80-85 percent.
The injury list is growing for pitchers in '24 MLB season it's not even 2 weeks old.
It's every team having 10 guys that throw an avg fastball over 95 mph and almost all of em throwing sliders
When was the last time anyone saw a knuckleball pitcher get hurt ?
Emphasis on spin rate is probably the culprit.
Gotta add that some of these guys spend the off season at Driveline or other pitching camps trying to add one or two mph to their delivery. Not giving themselves any down time...pushing themselves to the limit all year long.
I remember that, when the league reduced the runners-on clock from 20s to 18s, Max Scherzer said on FT that he'd talked to a doctor who said that the number of injuries hadn't gone up, but the severity of those injuries had. If that's true, then a metric like # days on IL is more informative than # of injuries, and MLB's study isn't looking at the right thing.
Great info, thank you! I was unaware of the issue. My uneducated guess would be less the clock and more the required increase in gripping the ball to get these high spin rates. Maybe the lack of sticky stuff on the ball is having an effect? Something to consider. Maybe some pre-approved sticky stuff should be allowed so they don't have to grip so hard? But, would it stop them from squeezing the crap out of the ball? Who knows.
If only there was an outspoken, thoughtful, perfect-game throwing pitcher you could bring on for some discussion.... :) Keep up the great work. No matter what goes on with the A's, you've made a fan for life, sir.
Im no doctor but i dont belive this is a major pitch timer issue, this is more of a volocity issue, not just the player issues, but i miss the pitchers who could throw 8 or 9 innings using multiple pitches, not all high speed stuff. I think these kinda things have a way of balencing themselves out.
I think it's a grip and technique thing for velocity and/or spin... harder grip makes the way your elbow needs to bend less natural
It all started when they allowed umpires to check hands, hats and belts for any sticky stuff! They are getting hurt because they have to grip the ball harder because the pitchers are scared to use anything to help with the grip. Sticky stuff ban was 2021 . The pitch timer is comical
Grip 😂😂😂 If you think pitchers used “ sticky stuff” for grip, then I’ve got a beach house in Arizona I’d like to sell you.
Don’t be foolish. They used it for spin rate to increase movement on pitches….nothing more, nothing less.
@@prestonbucher18 would you use rosin and sun screen for spin rate? Pitchers are scared to use anything not just the extra sticky stuff
So, every arm injury before the pitch clock was due to??????
exactly
Wizard did it.
If the league wants to shorten games, it could run fewer commercials between innings; but that would cost $$ so that'll never happen.
They want more action, not shorter games. Nice try though.
Just found this video searching a recap for this situation. Thanks for this!
The main reason is simple
Pitchers are throwing so god damn hard it is destroying elbows
As Chris Bassitt said in an interview at the start of the season, pitchers have to shoot for 97,98 hell 100 MPH on a consistent basis or they are deemed not as good
Look at how many pitchers are coming in throwing 100MPh on the regular and especially how long some are
We live in an Era where a pitcher not getting Tommy John surgery is surprising and that is silly.
Could the pitch clock make these issues a bit worse, yes but the fact is to me that these issues started way before the pitch timer was ever even thought of
Bullshit. Players get Tommy John surgery at college. How about not everyone trying to throw 100miles,instead learn the art of pitching?
EXACTLY. Glad MLB pushed back and told the MLBPA, “No, It’s YOU and your 100 MPH velocity and spin rates doing this to yourself. Go learn the history of baseball”
The MLBPA is such a typical piece of trash union
these players very well know they can get injured, and still, all of them continue to play the game. no one is forcing them to make 10 million a year with a slight risk of throwing out their arms
Exactly...but the player evaluation people need to come off that mentality too(looking at you Tampa, Dodgers, and those who try to copy how they do things)
@@tonyc8752 If you listened to MLBPA, you would think that pitchers only started getting hurt last year.
A. The ART of pitching is to get guys out. B. There is no art or pitching if you don’t get a contract in the first place.
I don’t think it’s the pitch clock or velocity. Nolan Ryan pitched at a pace well within the pitch clock timeframe. He even threw at batters that took too long to get back in the box. I think the biggest problem has been lowering the seams on the baseball which has caused pitchers to do more to get the ball to move, putting more stress on the arm, especially the elbow.
One college conference started using the pitch clock in 2010, all of college the following year. AZ fall league got it in 2014 and MILB in 2015. I can see that contributing to part of the increase but it can't explain it all. The average ball game has around 280-300 pitches thrown in total to batters. With old games that lasted 3 hours and the new rules take 30 minutes off that, the old games had a pitch every 36 seconds and shorter games are at 30 seconds. So now the question is do those extra 6 seconds of rest between pitches really make the difference on the pitching arm?
The clock saved the sport
@@tonyc8752no it didnt. All it did was attempt to bring in casuals at the expense of true baseball fans.
Pitches have way more movement now than before, maybe that has more to do with injuries than pitch clock
Let’s think through this logically, MLBPA. There is ZERO difference between 20 seconds and 40 seconds when it comes to pitching at maximal effort. It could be 2 minutes between pitches, but if your intention is to throw at 100% effort, the rest time is irrelevant. It’s the amount of pitches you’re throwing at max effort chasing velocity that’s doing the damage….
Let’s also be real honest here. The upward trajectory for injuries among pitchers WELL pre-dates the pitch clock, so let’s not pretend that this came out of nowhere.
If the pitch clock has any impact on injury, my hypothesis is that it has far less impact than the many other factors. I remember in little league and high school we were limited on how many pitches or innings we pitched per day. In addition, the more pitches we had in a day the more days off we had to take before we could pitch again. Perhaps it is time MLB considered a league wide restriction similar to what we have at the high school level? That won’t eliminate all injuries, but if there is a significant correlation between injury and pitch time, then we should consider action that would significantly lower injury. Health of players should always take priority over everything else, in my opinion.
I'm not sure it's the pitch clock, although that could be a part of it. Shortening the clock doesn't help MLB's case. It's the chase for velocity and spin rate that is doing this to pitchers in order to get paid, but less time for recovery between pitches can't help.
I'm amazed they were able to get the players union to agree to a pitch clock at all. If I was a pitcher, it would suck not having a few extra seconds to compose yourself after loading the bases or giving a homer, not to mention the arm having less chance to recover between throws.
Bring back the knuckle ball specialists
Arm injuries have been up for years and its one year of a pitch clock. You can't go full gas 100% of the time like they do.
Throw knuckleballs and you won't have to worry about Tommy John Surgery 😊
get rid of the stupid shot clock
I'm honestly surprised they shorten the pitch clock. One, because MLB loves the money, and now there's less time for commercial time. So I was actually very surprising when they shortened it..
not surprised too if the quicker clock is inducing injuries faster. Though a big focus on velo from pitchers is also a factor
I suspect the problem has more to do with mechanics than the time clock.
This is about my take on the issue. The emphasis on velocity, spin rate, etc. to maximize the performance of a pitch is definitely the main culprit of the problem. An accurate comparison to this is the fact that when driving, accelerating quickly will put more wear and tear on a vehicle than gradually accelerating to desired speed. As for the question of the pitch timer making the problem worse, I can definitely see why there is concern on MLBPA and the athletes. Going back to the car analogy, city driving is harder on a vehicle than highway driving since city driving involves a lot more cycles of accelerating and braking in the same time period than highway driving. Therefore, the same vehicle owned by an aggressive driver with more city miles would be more likely to have major issues with his vehicle sooner than an aggressive driver doing more highway miles.
As mentioned in the video, whether or not this principle holds true in the baseball is hard to say at the moment due to the seemingly lack of data, but it is a possibility. Drawing a conclusion either way based on one season with the timer is like a hunter zeroing his rifle for deer season by only firing one shot at the range before making adjustments to his scope. It is possible that the numbers of pitchers on the injured list being slightly lower in 2023 than the couple years before is an anomaly in the data just as it's possible that the point of impact vs point of aim of one shot from a hunter's rifle is due to a bullet being out of spec made it past quality control at the factory.
Time will tell which is the answer.
I'm a Houston Native and watching this reminded me of a part-time Houston pitcher, Lance McCullers. Look at his pitch selection and his innings pitched over the past 5 seasons.
He's never had to deal with the pitch clock and all of his injuries mimic what you see in the league.
This all goes back to pitchers being babied at not just the Little League level, but HS and College too.
When did arm injuries begin to increase? When a pitcher wasn't expected to be able to throw a complete game.
This is on the MLBPA trying to get more pitcher jobs (you need less relievers if you have 5 or 6 guys that can go 9).
This is on MLB for removing ANY sort of grip assistance from the ball.
This is on youth baseball for limiting pitchers ability to actually reach their physical peak.
Them cracking down on grip/sticky stuff too. There needs to be a middle ground to help mediate this issue.
Bingo. This is the issue. “Squeeze the crap out of it” you say? Looks like Trevor Bauer was right all along…
They should use the baseballs that were used in the last Olympics. A little tackier than the MLB ball, and everyone seemed to like it. Increasing tackiness a little would reduce the need for dangerous grips.
I remember being told that sliders were harmful to the elbow when i was in little league. Whether or not that true, that was at least what thought for us was in 1987
Pitchers have traded durability in their quest to satiate the analytics people with ever increasing spin and velo rates.
The MLBPA are really grasping at straws. Arm injuries for pitchers in high school are just as out of control where there is no pitch clock. I'll go with that Dr Meister's opinion about modern pitching styles contributing to these arm injuries, there doesn't seem to be anybody that pitches like Greg Maddux anymore.
It is really hard to be good with that style anymore batters have gotten better also.
Todays pitchers are too athletic and toned so injury happens more often ..There was a time when teams would have a starter and a closer ..Now there needs to be a starter , middle reliever , set up man and a closer . Lean muscle mass leads to more injury because of the extreme tension put on joints .
Wonder if discussing with with the pitching ninja and other pitchers on how maybe they can change how pitches are thrown? Seems like with the "sweeper" being popular. If there's ways not to put so much pressure on the ligaments when throwing? Just thinking out loud cause I have no clue.
Pitchers are throwing too hard. Thats it. I solved the issue. If you have a kid in baseball every coach he will have from now till college will try to maximize his speed. Thats it. If you have a kid who could pitch like Greg Maddux that wouldnt be good enough and scouts would bypass him for the guy who throws like John Rocker. This is 100% true. The Clock has nothing to do with the injuries. Some pitchers didnt even need a lot of time to throw there next pitch. Is the players union saying each hard thrower needs 5 minutes? What should happen is have any pitch thrown over 100 mph be called a ball. Yea i said it. If a player swings and misses its still a strike but if the pitch goes pass 100 mph even if its in the strike zone its called a ball. If a player is hit with a ball over 95 mph the pitcher is thrown out and suspended for 5 games. This would force pitchers to pitch instead of throwing the ball as hard as possible.
Personally I love the pitch clock but didn’t like shortening the time at the major league level… the current clock of 15/18 is the system MiLB has been using for nearly a decade so would be a better study sample wise to see injuries across low A to Triple A rather than just the 2 weeks of this season. As much as I hate to say it as well but arm injuries are just inevitable, it sucks but true at the same time.
Why do you love the clock?
IMO the pitch clock is not the cause of the injuries. It’s pitchers trying to throw 100 mph and high rates of spin/break. GM’s would be fools to give long term contracts to any pitcher.
It would be interesting to see statistics of pitcher injuries I bet there were fewer 20 and even 10 years ago then there are today.
Too lazy to look up the data, but MLB pitchers throw way less pitches / innings than their historical counterparts. But, you add in way more use when they were younger with travel teams. Lots of different moving parts.
At this point the focus should be on what are the easy changes to help pitchers. 6 or 7 man rotations. Add an extra 3 pitching spots and an extra general use roster spot. 30 man roster.
It seems we see more starters than relievers as well
Adding more pitching spots would actually make the problem worse. If anything you need to take some away and force teams to value durability and efficiency. More slots just gives managers more arms to burn through.
They just don't make humans like they used to.
your UCL isn’t fully developed til around 26 years old, these injuries are caused by teaching 14-23 year olds (if not younger) to pitch as hard as possible for their fastball and to throw stressful pitches like sweepers
Prove that statement
@@stevekassel3301 (Griffin, et al. 2000)
Hopefully not a long term unintended consequence of the pitch clock.
It is way too early to tell if, in the long term, the clock causes injuries.
In the short term, it seems pretty plausible, as pitchers who haven't adjusted properly to the pitch clock rhythm may be forced to hurry and end up not using their natural motion.
Time will tell, so to speak
LOL. Spencer Strider had Tommy John in 2019. What’s their excuse back then?
Why don’t pictures wear a sleeve on the elbow to hold your elbow in place?
If you work on an assembly line and the work-pace is increased the body is more prone to repetitive stress injury, absent a corresponding improvement in production techniques. I've witnessed this. If the contemporary MLB pitcher is already near the human body's upper limit due to increased velocity and spin, decreasing the time between pitches will increase the likelihood for injury. I think over-specialization, analytics, and commercialization have taken a lot away from the beauty of the game. One of the unique and appealing aspects of the sport was the absence of a clock. It was more enjoyable when I was young in the 1960s. But maybe I'm just being a nostalgic old guy who pines for the
"good old days".
As the video points out injuries have been rising long before the pitch Clock.
The clock being introduced in 2023 doesn't explain why there was such an increase from 2012 - 2022.
You can hate the clock but it's not the cause of these injuries.
The introduction of the pitch clock last year clearly caused the doubling of pitching injuries over the last decade and a half. Clearly the pitch clocks are running at 1.21 gigawatts and caused a temporal spreading of pitching injuries, but everyone who's anyone knows that 1.21 gigawatts is only enough power to go back 15 years so that's why it started then.
Clear as day.
You combine that with the crazy focus on velocity this is what you get.
You want starting pitchers to go long without getting hurt? They have to understand it is a marathon not a lightning dash. I would look at hockey and implement a 2 point system for baseball. You win and your starter goes a full 7, you get 2 points. You lose and your starter still goes 7 full, you still get one point. One point for the win. This would make teams and pitchers have to step back and figure out a long term strategy for staying healthy and NOT throwing 101 on the third pitch in the first. AKA they would have to learn how to pitch. Move the ball up/down, in/out without blasting the cannon and hoping it ends up where the catcher can catch it. As we have seen, pretty much all major leaguers can and will time up velocity so you are never going to just blow it by everyone every inning.
Also the young kids coming up now are "one sport kids" and do not get full overall balanced muscle development as those playing 3 sports (baseball, football, basketball). I think parents push kids too hard too fast way too soon and that is more to blame as by the time they get to the bigs, their pitching elbow is living on a prayer. So what we are seeing at the major league level could very well just be the end product of decades of pushing youth and it's just now starting to filter up through the ranks.
As far as the timer goes, the modern players brought it upon themselves by dilly dallying forever without throwing the ball and forced MLB's hand. I watch a lot of old time games on Fubo (MLB's great games channel) and the pace was not bad at all back then with no clock. One did not see the ridiculous time consuming batting rituals before every pitch like we did just prior to the installation of the clock.
A personal opinion with absolutely no fact finding or research done, so take it all with a grain of salt if you will.
It's velo. If guys wouldn't try to throw 100 every pitch, this would not be an issue.
Well they're not gonna stop guys from throwing hard. Realistically, the clock is the only thing they can change.
@@johnwayne9828 Changing the clock isn't going to stop injuries. They were already rising exponentially before the clock. It's the focus on velo and spin rate.
@@kjorlaug1 do you honestly see teams telling guys to pitch softer and dont worry about spin rate? No. The only thing they can actually change is the clock. Genies out of the bottle with velo and spin rate, theres no putting it back in.
It’s over throwing and the new junk they’re throwing. Another potential factor is the fact that umpires are checking pitchers every game. These guys used to have access to all kinds of foreign substances and objects.
The clock was used in the minors snd didnt cause a rash of injuries, so the union argument that it is the clock is groundless. Also, isnt it ripe that the best thing that happened in years in baseball from a fan’s perspective, is already under attack by the union?!
Pitch timer should increase by 2sec after 2 innings pitched. 4sec after 4 innings pitched, 6sec after 6 innings pitched, and increased by 10 seconds for the 9th inning pitched. Once a pitcher is replaced the clock is reset. If a pitcher is in his 9th inning of work then he is likely going for a CGSO, a NoNo, or a PG... and I don't think the crowd will mind too much if he takes a few extra breathes in that scenario.
That's actually a fantastic middle ground I didn't think of. Props to you
Interesting thought. Might be an interesting compromise,
This is a great idea but I read that as CSGO and I was like yeah you know I do get a little tired after gaming for a while.
@@joshclontz1306 😂🤣
@@BrettShadow 😂😂
Its also time to look at the inverted W
Just stop throwing so hard. Make the adjustment.
It has more to do with the baseball changes and the ban of spider tack and any substance to add extra grip, besides the rosin bag. I hate to say it, but Trevor Bauer was right about all of this. When a pitcher can’t grip a baseball like in years past, they are now forced to torque their arm more to generate the required spin needed for the pitch to be effective. It blows my mind how no one is talking about this!!
MLBPA isn't wrong. Guys throwing as hard as they can with as much spin rate as they can with minimal time to recover between exertions is going to lead to more injuries. Those of us who go to the gym know of the importance of rest and recovery between exertions. While the exertion time is much shorter with individual pitches, there's an average of 15-20 of those exertions in less than 10 minutes. It's going to add up.
Training has to be significant here or lack of it. If they trained one way for years and now that process has to be sped up, things are going to pop. I would bet the next generation of pitcher wont have it as bad, but at what cost?. Maybe the should increase the pitch time a bit.
Not able to you sticky stuff. It’s not the clock, only people against the clock will start that false narrative.
Tribe has lost 2 of our most important pitchers to tommy John already this season, I am absolutely sick. I have faith in our guys but biebs was absolutely slinging it.
If I force a carpenter, or a car mechanic to do their job in a fraction of the time they had previously, they are going to get hurt. It's just common sense. A rushed job is not a good job in any profession, why should baseball be any different?
Curious if the same rate of injuries has been observed in the minors, international leagues, and to a lesser extent college pitchers.
These topics also tend to revisit the pitch count philosophy and if its having a negative impact for some athletes by hindering pitchers to ability to build up arm stamina.
yes - arm injuries go all the way down to youth levels, unfortunately
It seems like its certain that the pitch is clock is not the cause of UCL injuries but it definitely has exacerbated the problem. Manfred's MLB just keeps messing up with every decision that they make .
Pitching injuries aren't because of the pitch timer clock. It's because of the unnatural throwing motion.
A lot of players were on steroids in the 90’s which helped with recovery and less injuries
The human body is not made to throw 90 miles plus
I cant believe that mlb and players dont understand how to avoid injuries and why theyre on the rise. Is for one thing and very simple. They do not train for withstanding more throws they inly train for increasing velocity. Tell me which pitcher in the offseason goes all the way to 100-150 pitch bullpens? Nobody absolutely nobody. The only way to be prepared to throw 100 throws in the game is that in the offseason you slowly progress all the way to 100-150 throws. You might call me crazy to encourage offseason bullpens of 100-150 throws but its even crazier to think that 30 pitch bullpens will prepare you to throw 100 in the game. That is foolish nonsense. The arm doesnt know how many throws is doing it only knows stress. If youve only throwing 30 pitch bullpens and the increase it all of the sudden to 100 youre increasing more than double of what your body can handle. Now if you slowly progress in the offseason to 150 throws your body and arm are going to get use to that stress. But pitchers from today dont give their body the opportunity to get use to the stress. Sometimes you only need logic and common sense to solve a problem. Its ironic that sometimes common sense is the less common sense the human uses.
Just make it 18 and 18
Someone should sign Trevor Bauer
#NoImprovementsForSutterHealthPark #SaveTheOaklandAs
everyone complains about micro managing in every single thing in the world...yet everyone wants more micromanaging in baseball? Why is it bad in every other thing in the world except baseball? Remove the pitch clock. You say that they reached the desired effect, but nobody but the MLB desires faster games. The fans want their game, not a speed run. The fans pay the bills, stop screwing us.
O yea cause youth sports got nothing to do with it
People get injured because they all try to throw 110 mph every pitch
There seems to be a correlation.
Elbow injuries have been trending the wrong way for a LONG time before 2023
I wonder if resting pitchers for longer periods would help with their longevity down the road. Its at least somethinf that can be done soon since we dont have any conclusive redearch results yet.
Add a roster spot and go to 6 man rotation… would be an interesting way to add rest and reduce wear
They make them throw too much on off days. Guys used to only throw off the mound once in between starts now it's almost every day.
I hate to be that guy.
Honestly we need to change baseball to have heavier balls or something. We shouldn’t intentionally keep things the save if it’s only injuring players. I’m not sure what but something should change to save players arms
Attention deficit disorder baseball sucks anyway.
1995-1999 everyone was on steroids so their recovery time was better
Gotta sue the MLB for negligence
😂😂😂sounding like a fool
Instead of a pitch timer, why not a game time limit like they do in Banana Ball. Then implement overtime rules is game is tied after say a 3hr time limit
fun for the bananas... and I like "out of the box"... but that would upend any kind of tradition in MLB.
@@brodiebrazil Upend tradition? You mean like placing a runner on 2nd to start the 10th inning? Or using DHs in the NL?
It isn't about length of game, it is about the pace of play. More frequent pitches is more fun. More offense is more fun. Strikeouts suck.
No, they need to learn to play fundamental baseball. You know like the hit and run, bunt, and throwing pitches that get outs. Like others have said trying to throw 100 mph is what the problem is.
@@brodiebrazil the DH in the National League, the pitch clock, the runner on 2nd in xtra innings has already ruined tradition in MLB, so why not evolve to make the game more interesting for fans.
Clock has nothing to do with it. This has been going on for a long time.
It ain’t the pitch clock. It’s throwing 100 mph.