Quick opinion about the Specific/Unspecific Lore example at 13:23 - I would argue that in this circumstance (and many similar ones), Undead Lore is in fact the Unspecific Lore, and gains the benefit of an Easy modifier to the check (-2 to the DC). Ghoul Lore would be the Specific Lore with the Very Easy modifier (-5). In my opinion, it makes sense that creature tags that encompass a wide variety of different creatures (Animal, Beast, Fey, Fiend, Undead) are more specific than using Arcana/Nature/Religion/Occultism but *less* specific than say, Devil Lore or Dragon Lore. Moreover, and less related to what you said, I personally wouldn't expect a player to go as far as to take Succubus Lore to gain the Specific Lore adjustment for a Succubus, for instance: Demon Lore does the job.
I'd say something like Incorporeal Undead Lore, Mindless Undead Lore, Intelligent Undead Lore might be closer in scope to Demon lore and allow the -5 in my tables. Probably.
11:55 I always say that Additional Lore is the best skill feat for any character with int, its SO GOOD and so few people talk about it! Great shout! Edit: You value it even more than I have (and you are totally correct to do so in PFS)
My current Bard has Elven Lore, Additional Lore (Undead), and Additional Lore (Leyline) for my weekly game. I might try to squeeze in Additional Lore (Aberration) as well. I have been beyond impressed by the roleplay AND combat-oriented information that those have resulted in. My GM even gave us a temporary boon from a god after a crit on a check and learned that a statue of a goddess was built on a Leyline and hence was strongly empowered!
I’ve played TTRPGs a lot, but I’m pretty new to Pathfinder. As someone who has been playing more PFS recently, even in other cities when I travel, I REALLY appreciated you taking this perspective to character building. PFS games are structured very differently from “playing with a group of friends”. I’m sure I’ll refer to this video more than once.
32:46 that hero point for initiative is so clutch wtf haha, I'll try to keep that in mind whenever I'm playing something more supportive. I know a good RK can change a lot of how the combat plays out...
Hero pointing initiative is generally a very low value move. Whenever I see people do it it's more out of frustration. "Hah! I go first now! I move in and strike!" then proceeds to get turned into a fine paste by whatever was in the room. I recognize that it can have value, but please, have a damn plan.
@@hawktitan7896 I absolutely agree it’s a low value move on a melee martial! On any non-Divine spellcaster though it is absolutely crucial. It is incredible to have a high chance of throwing out that Fireball, Freezing Rain, Wall of Stone, Synesthesia, Heightened Slow, Phantasmal Calamity, etc before the enemy has a turn to move around, threaten you, or anything else.
One thing you didn't mention is that Untrained Improvisation is another good way to get value on skill checks for low skill characters. Sure you won't be *good* at anything but it will at least give you a chance at everything, where as Additional Lore will make you good at something, but only narrowly, costing a general feat for most ancestries or potentially an ancestry feat for humans.
I challange you on the single gate Kinetic. You can totally build those versatile enough. As example there is weapon infustion which basically gives you all normal weapon damage types ...
You CAN build amazing single gate Kineticists. Wood kineticists with Protector Tree and no other feats are already very strong. My general response to your idea though is "What are you doing with your other two actions?" A single gate kineticist will often find themselves in scenarios where their best abilities are constrained. If all you are doing is doing a versatile damage type blast with your turn, you will be lagging behind other party members. The fire gate that is referenced in the video for this specific example is not great on utility. It focuses on damage. A fire gate kineticist, accordingly, will often feel like a weak character.
For society you can choose more than common options. For every game you play/GM in society, you get a number of points that you can spend on other character options.
Haven't done PF Society but hearing that you have characters that are multiple levels like level 1 & 3 in the same party I wonder how are the encounters balanced in PF Society play? With the way proficiency bonuses tie of level and come levels getting a major boost in power. Like someone who just got striking rune vs someone 2 levels lower without is gonna have huge difference in combat. Sure as mentioned in video there are other things besides damage but often still have to hit. Like I play an alchemist and typically focus more on the debilitating feats and items since I know I can't match the damage of Fighter and Ranger in party. Problem is alchemist tends to have about -2 to attack compared to other marshals, let alone a fighter, when at the same level. So even though I throw a lot of Lightning in a bottle (Off-Guard) and Dread Vials (Frighten 1) to give my allies an effective +3 to hit I still miss a LOT due to lower to hit rates. If I was even further behind by being two levels back I think I'd feel pretty useless. Overall though I know different classes get varying boost in power at different levels but even so the Encounter point builder system seems to be set around players of the same level. So if the PF Society adventure might have 6 level 1 players one time and 6 level 3 players another time and anywhere in between the other times how do they properly balance those encounters to ensure the full team of level 1 isn't TPK often and full team of level 3 don't cake walk it?
I haven't done PFS on the GM side, but essentially there are different level tiers and threat tiers that are applied to the encounters to compensate for it based on player compensation. It worked quite well from what I saw as a player.
@@ThrabenU_Gaming That's good to hear. Most my campaigns do leveling based on milestones so everyone in the party is the same level. Only one time did we have a major level difference. We ran a stand alone adventure level 1-4. After it we took a break and new group had 2 of old players and 2 new players. One of the old players wanted to keep his original character but not start over at level 1 again. Since we did milestones I told him fine but he wasn't gonna level up to 5 until the party caught up as he can't stay 3 levels above everyone else. He was fine with it and figured it wouldn't be much issue as he was a support caster so having more HP didn't matter much as he wasn't tanking, and didn't really have major damage abilities so didn't outshine the fighter or other heavy damage dealers. So it wasn't too noticable he was higher than everyone else and that gap quickly closed. However some classes I'm sure would have really outshines in a level difference. Like fighter already crits a lot more than other classes and have seen even in equal level groups fighter one shot some NPCs. With a few levels above the rest of the party a fighter would probably be criting the majority of his attacks making most other players feel sub-par. I was kinda curious how they did it cause was potentially gonna be running into similar issue as got a few people wanting to play some stand alone adventures but also bring in characters they had used in other campaigns. Kinda like a mini PF Society in our friend group working with whole PF concept of it being a networking organization to match adventurers with jobs as the RP for why they may mix and match with each other in the stand alone and one shot adventures. Down leveling the existing players would feel like punishment for them as they would lose abilities. And up leveling the lower levels would feel like giving them unfair boost, plus if they wanna return back with their other group then they would either have to be down leveled or raise that group up. Which could quickly result in everyone just rushing through character levels and out leveling the adventures. As such I was trying to figure out how they scaled it. Found mention of high and low tiers of encounter based on the party level comp. But was hoping to find something that was more around encounter budget as it only deals with player count and not level since need to make encounters for such parties.
My rubric for what is "normal" has been skewed so much by Free Archetype. It just seems so much more flexible and fun! (Though I can see why it would be disallowed in PFS)
I agree that Free Archetype is very fun. It allows for some crazy concepts. It does certainly power up characters on average though, even if you aren't power gaming with some of the strongest archetypes.
I will use your idea to hero point initiative for support as well. That's... Quite cool ngl although in a game were GMs don't give HP as often, it will be hard to justify
Another way to get a lot skill trainings is to purposely pick a class that uses Intelligence as it's key ability score. With that limitation, there are still tons of options, including: Alchemist Investigator Inventor Rogue with the Mastermind Racket Wizard Witch Psychic with the Gathered Lore or the Precise Discipline subconscious minds. classes that use their intelligence modifer for spell attacks and dc's that isn't the key ability score: Magus
Yeah, I've spent some time looking at Mastermind Rogue in the last couple of days; it is VERY easy to be trained in every skill (or most skills and a couple of lores) at level 1.
This actually makes me feal much better about my bog standard basic bonk Barbarian (orc, giant instinct, with raging intimidation). In the first level of the box set, I already used Demoralize successfully a half dozen times and even had it directly cause a couple missed attacks that otherwise would have hit. I invested in +2 Chr for that, so also have decent Diplomacy (and of course Intimidation). It's probably a good thing I brough some big bonk to the table - out of 5 players, only two of use really went for bonk (Swashbuckler, Champion, Witch, Investigator, Barbarian). I don't know what I'd do at a PFS even if sub-level, but I ANYBODY can use AID, right? Sounds like you don't see that even ONCE, eh?
Yes, I never saw aid all weekend. Part of that might be that aid has a set DC (it's like 15 or 20, and I vaguely remember some changes to it), so it's tough to do at level 1.
![[Live สด] การออกรางวัลสลากกินแบ่งรัฐบาล งวดวันที่ 16 พฤศจิกายน 2567](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wPd7VFfWHIA/mqdefault.jpg)
Undead Lore is *not* a specific lore. It's unspecific. Ghoul Lore or Skeleton Lore would be the specific versions
22:00 Hey I know that guy!
Quick opinion about the Specific/Unspecific Lore example at 13:23 - I would argue that in this circumstance (and many similar ones), Undead Lore is in fact the Unspecific Lore, and gains the benefit of an Easy modifier to the check (-2 to the DC). Ghoul Lore would be the Specific Lore with the Very Easy modifier (-5). In my opinion, it makes sense that creature tags that encompass a wide variety of different creatures (Animal, Beast, Fey, Fiend, Undead) are more specific than using Arcana/Nature/Religion/Occultism but *less* specific than say, Devil Lore or Dragon Lore.
Moreover, and less related to what you said, I personally wouldn't expect a player to go as far as to take Succubus Lore to gain the Specific Lore adjustment for a Succubus, for instance: Demon Lore does the job.
I'd say something like Incorporeal Undead Lore, Mindless Undead Lore, Intelligent Undead Lore might be closer in scope to Demon lore and allow the -5 in my tables. Probably.
11:55 I always say that Additional Lore is the best skill feat for any character with int, its SO GOOD and so few people talk about it! Great shout!
Edit: You value it even more than I have (and you are totally correct to do so in PFS)
My current Bard has Elven Lore, Additional Lore (Undead), and Additional Lore (Leyline) for my weekly game. I might try to squeeze in Additional Lore (Aberration) as well. I have been beyond impressed by the roleplay AND combat-oriented information that those have resulted in. My GM even gave us a temporary boon from a god after a crit on a check and learned that a statue of a goddess was built on a Leyline and hence was strongly empowered!
33:00 A classic saying from magic "You win on your turn!"
I know nothing about Pathfinder, but I am eager to learn!
I’ve played TTRPGs a lot, but I’m pretty new to Pathfinder. As someone who has been playing more PFS recently, even in other cities when I travel, I REALLY appreciated you taking this perspective to character building. PFS games are structured very differently from “playing with a group of friends”.
I’m sure I’ll refer to this video more than once.
And thanks for that!
The legacy Gnome Obsession feat was decent too. I like the gnome ancestry feats overall. Lot of gems for the gem loving species.
32:46 that hero point for initiative is so clutch wtf haha, I'll try to keep that in mind whenever I'm playing something more supportive. I know a good RK can change a lot of how the combat plays out...
Hero Point for Initiative is literally my number 1 most used way of using them! Go early, throw out a game-changing spell, leave the room.
Hero pointing initiative is generally a very low value move. Whenever I see people do it it's more out of frustration. "Hah! I go first now! I move in and strike!" then proceeds to get turned into a fine paste by whatever was in the room.
I recognize that it can have value, but please, have a damn plan.
@@hawktitan7896 I absolutely agree it’s a low value move on a melee martial!
On any non-Divine spellcaster though it is absolutely crucial. It is incredible to have a high chance of throwing out that Fireball, Freezing Rain, Wall of Stone, Synesthesia, Heightened Slow, Phantasmal Calamity, etc before the enemy has a turn to move around, threaten you, or anything else.
One thing you didn't mention is that Untrained Improvisation is another good way to get value on skill checks for low skill characters. Sure you won't be *good* at anything but it will at least give you a chance at everything, where as Additional Lore will make you good at something, but only narrowly, costing a general feat for most ancestries or potentially an ancestry feat for humans.
Yeah, that's a great option.
Teaching two new players, this will be cool to show
I challange you on the single gate Kinetic. You can totally build those versatile enough. As example there is weapon infustion which basically gives you all normal weapon damage types ...
You CAN build amazing single gate Kineticists. Wood kineticists with Protector Tree and no other feats are already very strong. My general response to your idea though is "What are you doing with your other two actions?" A single gate kineticist will often find themselves in scenarios where their best abilities are constrained. If all you are doing is doing a versatile damage type blast with your turn, you will be lagging behind other party members. The fire gate that is referenced in the video for this specific example is not great on utility. It focuses on damage. A fire gate kineticist, accordingly, will often feel like a weak character.
For society you can choose more than common options. For every game you play/GM in society, you get a number of points that you can spend on other character options.
the six players thing definitely depends on the con. dragon con usually varied between 3 and 6.
Commenting for an algorithm! Thanks for the awesome content
Haven't done PF Society but hearing that you have characters that are multiple levels like level 1 & 3 in the same party I wonder how are the encounters balanced in PF Society play?
With the way proficiency bonuses tie of level and come levels getting a major boost in power. Like someone who just got striking rune vs someone 2 levels lower without is gonna have huge difference in combat. Sure as mentioned in video there are other things besides damage but often still have to hit.
Like I play an alchemist and typically focus more on the debilitating feats and items since I know I can't match the damage of Fighter and Ranger in party. Problem is alchemist tends to have about -2 to attack compared to other marshals, let alone a fighter, when at the same level. So even though I throw a lot of Lightning in a bottle (Off-Guard) and Dread Vials (Frighten 1) to give my allies an effective +3 to hit I still miss a LOT due to lower to hit rates. If I was even further behind by being two levels back I think I'd feel pretty useless.
Overall though I know different classes get varying boost in power at different levels but even so the Encounter point builder system seems to be set around players of the same level. So if the PF Society adventure might have 6 level 1 players one time and 6 level 3 players another time and anywhere in between the other times how do they properly balance those encounters to ensure the full team of level 1 isn't TPK often and full team of level 3 don't cake walk it?
I haven't done PFS on the GM side, but essentially there are different level tiers and threat tiers that are applied to the encounters to compensate for it based on player compensation. It worked quite well from what I saw as a player.
@@ThrabenU_Gaming That's good to hear. Most my campaigns do leveling based on milestones so everyone in the party is the same level. Only one time did we have a major level difference.
We ran a stand alone adventure level 1-4. After it we took a break and new group had 2 of old players and 2 new players. One of the old players wanted to keep his original character but not start over at level 1 again. Since we did milestones I told him fine but he wasn't gonna level up to 5 until the party caught up as he can't stay 3 levels above everyone else.
He was fine with it and figured it wouldn't be much issue as he was a support caster so having more HP didn't matter much as he wasn't tanking, and didn't really have major damage abilities so didn't outshine the fighter or other heavy damage dealers. So it wasn't too noticable he was higher than everyone else and that gap quickly closed.
However some classes I'm sure would have really outshines in a level difference. Like fighter already crits a lot more than other classes and have seen even in equal level groups fighter one shot some NPCs. With a few levels above the rest of the party a fighter would probably be criting the majority of his attacks making most other players feel sub-par.
I was kinda curious how they did it cause was potentially gonna be running into similar issue as got a few people wanting to play some stand alone adventures but also bring in characters they had used in other campaigns. Kinda like a mini PF Society in our friend group working with whole PF concept of it being a networking organization to match adventurers with jobs as the RP for why they may mix and match with each other in the stand alone and one shot adventures.
Down leveling the existing players would feel like punishment for them as they would lose abilities. And up leveling the lower levels would feel like giving them unfair boost, plus if they wanna return back with their other group then they would either have to be down leveled or raise that group up. Which could quickly result in everyone just rushing through character levels and out leveling the adventures.
As such I was trying to figure out how they scaled it. Found mention of high and low tiers of encounter based on the party level comp. But was hoping to find something that was more around encounter budget as it only deals with player count and not level since need to make encounters for such parties.
My rubric for what is "normal" has been skewed so much by Free Archetype. It just seems so much more flexible and fun! (Though I can see why it would be disallowed in PFS)
I agree that Free Archetype is very fun. It allows for some crazy concepts. It does certainly power up characters on average though, even if you aren't power gaming with some of the strongest archetypes.
I will use your idea to hero point initiative for support as well. That's... Quite cool ngl although in a game were GMs don't give HP as often, it will be hard to justify
Like your attitude, subbed!
Another way to get a lot skill trainings is to purposely pick a class that uses Intelligence as it's key ability score. With that limitation, there are still tons of options, including:
Alchemist
Investigator
Inventor
Rogue with the Mastermind Racket
Wizard
Witch
Psychic with the Gathered Lore or the Precise Discipline subconscious minds.
classes that use their intelligence modifer for spell attacks and dc's that isn't the key ability score:
Magus
Yeah, I've spent some time looking at Mastermind Rogue in the last couple of days; it is VERY easy to be trained in every skill (or most skills and a couple of lores) at level 1.
Positive comment for the algorythm, now watchtime :)
Same tbh
Neat vid
This actually makes me feal much better about my bog standard basic bonk Barbarian (orc, giant instinct, with raging intimidation).
In the first level of the box set, I already used Demoralize successfully a half dozen times and even had it directly cause a couple missed attacks that otherwise would have hit. I invested in +2 Chr for that, so also have decent Diplomacy (and of course Intimidation). It's probably a good thing I brough some big bonk to the table - out of 5 players, only two of use really went for bonk (Swashbuckler, Champion, Witch, Investigator, Barbarian).
I don't know what I'd do at a PFS even if sub-level, but I ANYBODY can use AID, right? Sounds like you don't see that even ONCE, eh?
Yes, I never saw aid all weekend. Part of that might be that aid has a set DC (it's like 15 or 20, and I vaguely remember some changes to it), so it's tough to do at level 1.
This isnt specific to the video but what are those plushies behind you?
They are called Squishables.