Atheist Debates - The Exodus
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ก.ย. 2024
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The story of the Exodus isn't merely missing supporting evidence, it's wholly unbelievable. The presentation of the characters and their actions isn't consistent with a group of people who witnessed miraculous events - and the actions of the God of this story represent an individual as confused, irrational and unbelievable as the people writing the story.
When I attended church, the preacher told everyone that, "It was a Miracle" that even though the Israelites wandered in the desert for 40 years, their clothes and shoes didn't wear out. Their tents and shelters never broke down. They didn't leave behind any metal or stone implements and pottery.
Everyone in the pews just smiled and nodded their head in approval.
It was a Miracle.
Note: I nodded my head too but only because I kept falling asleep.
Sorry that is lol funny
This reminds of an argument Richard Carrier made about the gospels. The gospels depict Jesus raising the dead, and preforming miracles in front of large crowds. At his death, there is a supernatural darkness, rock-splitting earthquakes, and Jewish saints come out of there graves and appear to many. Then the High Priests ask to have guards at the tomb because they thought if the body went missing, that would convince people a miracle had occurred...All that other shit going on, and they're worried a missing body is going to convince people something weird has happened?
And some still would not believe.
>"and they're worried a missing body is going to convince people something weird has happened?" -- Your post is in a nutshell what was the history of Israel; read the OT prophets who were constantly chew the people out for false worship, etc..
Instablaster.
Finger blaster .....
One of the arguments I hear on Matt's clips is the believers saying one reason they believe in the resurrection is that no one would have stayed faithful to death unless they had actually witnessed the resurrection.
Yes? Then how did these Israelites see all these miracles and then just toss it all aside over nothing?
Almost every biblical story, once dissected, shows just how apparently inept this God really is. How can a God who is capable of blinking the universe into existence keep making mistake after mistake? A child could pick out the errors, inconsistency and immorality of this 'god' fairly easily, which only speaks to the awesome power of indoctrination.
gods in general seem to be kind of inept.
+John Parker Why would they write something that is so easily proven to be false? I mean, if they were trying to sucker smart intelligent people such as yourself, you would think they would have written a book that would deceive smart intelligent people, like you, for example. It's strange they didn't try harder.
+YesYou123333 Because people did (& still do) make up stories to comfort themselves about the fact that they're going to cease to exist some day
+YesYou123333
The people who wrote this crap down were the some of the smartest people of that time, much more intelligent than I. They were tasked with transcribing oral representations of the superstitions and fairy tales that had been passed down for centuries, only changed to reflect the values and laws of the people of that tiny area in the Middle East. Human knowledge was in its infancy, so they can't be blamed for the glaring errors in the stories. Luckily for them, with religion it doesn't matter what's actually true, but how many people believe it. The more that believe it, the safer it is for others to believe without appearing silly, and when forced upon different cultures at the tip of the sword it traveled around the world fairly quickly. Remember, most people were illiterate and relied on their priests to read books to them. Once well known, with more people becoming literate, indoctrination carried the religion, and still does to this day.
John Parker How intelligent does one need to be to describe God as killing people? Why would they paint God as a monster? Killing is the same today as it was then, isn't it? Morals were pretty much the same then as they are today and yet people like you are too smart to get suckered in by it. Amazing.
This is great, Matt. But there's another problem I see with the Exodus story, at least if this is supposed to be the Christian god.
Note that God has clearly demonstrated that he exists, and that he's very, very powerful - not just to the Israelites, but to the Egyptians, too. Yet he clearly doesn't give a crap about them.
Does he want the Egyptians to worship him? No, not at all. There's no hint of that. Does he want them to switch gods? Is his display of power supposed to bring him the lost, to show the Egyptians who the REAL god is? Not at all.
This god doesn't give a CRAP about the Egyptians. The supposedly perfect 'God' who loves everyone on Earth was clearly not invented back then. He didn't exist. Otherwise, the Egyptians would be his people, too. He'd care about them, at least. He'd desire their worship.
But we see absolutely NOTHING of that in the Exodus story. This god cares about nothing and no one except for his particular tribe of people (and not much about them, to be honest). I think it's really weird that this is supposed to be the Christian god, too.
How can Christians believe something so obviously untrue?
+Bill Garthright
Excellent point.
In fact why didn't God just appear to Pharaoh, make the whole lot of them believers and then they could have just gotten along happily with each other from then on. Instead it's just more death and destruction from the OT God.
+Ben Rios If it means hell for anyone who doesn't fall down and worship him, it was still too much trouble for him to make some effort to convert the Egyptians? or the Japanese, or the Incas? How is the Torah or anything else a boon to them if they are headed for eternal torture because they don't accept facts that they have no reason to suspect are true? Come to that, how can god hold Adam and Eve accountable for eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, when they did not have the knowledge of good and evil to know they were doing wrong in disobeying him?
*****
"G-d is the g-d of everyone but his Torah is only meant for the Jews. Jews were the only nation who accepted it."
Really? I must have missed that part about your god appearing to everyone else on Earth with their own Torah. Heh, heh.
In reality, the ancient Jews believed in multiple gods, just like everyone else. But, pretty much like everyone else, they had their own tribal god who helped THEM.
That god was a real bastard, but he was THEIR bastard. The Jews were his people, and he was their god, and back then, you needed a god of your own.
The god of the Torah - of the OT, at least - doesn't even claim to be the only god. He just demands that the Jews put no other god above him. He's THEIR god, and he's damned jealous about it.
That's all very well for the Jews, I suppose, but this is also supposed to be the Christian god (and the Muslim god, but I won't get into that). In Christian mythology, 'God' loves everybody and really, really wants all human beings to worship him. (Otherwise, he'll torture them forever. Yeah, some 'love,' huh?)
But that's clearly bullshit. In the OT, in the Torah, nothing could be more clear than that this god doesn't give a crap about anyone else.
As I say, in the Exodus story, after going to all that trouble to show off how powerful he is (even hardening the Pharaoh's heart, so he'll continue to have excuses for torturing and killing the Egyptian people), that god doesn't even ATTEMPT to persuade the Egyptians to worship him.
That's because he doesn't give a crap about the Egyptians or about anyone else. He's a TRIBAL god. He's the imaginary god of a primitive tribe of people, and THEY didn't want a god who loved everyone. They wanted a god who'd kick ass on their behalf.
They wanted a god who'd slaughter their enemies, commit genocide, and give them the virgin girls as sex slaves. At least, he does that in the stories they told themselves, boasting about supposed past accomplishments. (The Exodus story didn't actually happen. But it's a story the ancient Jews told each other.)
Whether that fits with modern Jewish mythology, I don't know. But it certainly makes a joke of modern CHRISTIAN mythology.
+Bill Garthright If god has CLEARLY demonstrated he exist why can't you prove it?
+Ben Rios You are not answering any of Bill Garthright's claims or explanations. You are not countering the fact that the story does read like the one that a group of nomads would have written as their mythology. You are ignoring the fact that the Moses in this story does not even grasp the concept that a single god should be compelling to all mankind, instead of being in competition with the gods of Pharaoh, and with gods of people he did not even know existed, like the Mayas in America.
How could 4.3 million Jews see God's glory and less than 40 years afterward forget the whole thing, and decide to create a new God from gold? This is the impossible story. If I had lived through the plagues of Egypt and seen the Red Sea parted, or my parents had, I would die before letting some idiots make a new God from gold.
Damn, Matt, I'm really digging these videos!
Thanks!
Excellent as usual! Great stuff Matt!
Thank you very much for this continued series.
The second story in this video is incredably silly and hillarious when you explain it. I loved it!
Growing up and attending yeshiva (Orthodox Jewish school), all of the points mentioned here are highlighted for the lessons we are supposed to learn from them. Moses having a speech impediment is considered to be a positive. God chose Moses specifically because he was a poor speaker to show that he used a relatively average person. Even someone who isn't perfect can rise to greatness is the lesson we're supposed to learn.
The reason for his speech impediment according to biblical exegesis was because as a baby in Pharaoh's palace, Pharaoh's advisors wanted that the baby will grow to overthrow him and should be killed. A test was given where the baby Moses was offered a piece of hot coal and a diamond to see what he would do, presumably demonstrating the thing for which he showed the most affection. Of course Moses reaches for the diamond but an angel steps in and moves Moses' hand causing him to grab the hot coal and put it in his mouth. His tongue is badly burned and his speech his hindered from that point on.
The Golden Calf is a warning to future generations that no one is so righteous that they can't stray. The idea is that if the Israelites, who knew that god existed with absolute certainty, could stray, so too can anyone. So instead of it being seen as something ridiculous, it's highlighted and explained away. Rather than avoid these passages, there is nearly always an explanation that ultimately provides us with important lessons.
Like the two issues above, the large number of people leaving Egypt is far from a problem. Prior to studying this story, children are taught the Bible orally and would likely have made arts and crafts projects depicting the drowning of the Egyptians. They are already familiar with the basics by the time this story is learned by them directly from the Bible in about second grade (it's studied in the original Hebrew they've learned how to read, write and translate by six as I did). The fact that so many years people left Egypt and witnessed the miracles performed by god is considered to be one of the strongest pieces of evidence of the story's truth. We're told that no other religion claims so many years witnesses and wouldn't have the audacity to do so if it didn't happen. We're even told it wouldn't be possible to have invented such a lie. Besides that being ridiculous, if you read the Bible carefully, you'll see that at no point does god ever talk to any group of people let alone the entire nation. It just appears that was but when each sentence is examined, you see that it is written to seem as though that's the case Hut ultimately, someone is explaining what is happening. If there's lots of smoke, fire and the Earth is shaking, the Israelites are told that that's god.
matt is so good at explaining paths to real understanding
Im surprised that you didnt address the fact that god hardened pharaohs heart. Most apologists would assert that ramses was so prideful that he deliberately allowed yahweh to harden him so he wouldnt let the jews go. But there are instances where he CLEARLY decided to let them go. but as soon as theyre ready to leave gods like "NOPE" and hardens his heart. Its almost as if god is controlling both sides of the conflict so that he would exert his power. Sounds like something a common bully would do right?
+Luffyrulz09 He did address that. I don't recall exactly what he said though.
***** which video?
+Luffyrulz09 I was mistaken. I checked and he only briefly mentions it at 15:00.
***** oh, thanks for pointing that out
Lol, God is like Palpatine controlling both sides of the Clone Wars. 😀
this is the first time watching your channel and this is a wonderful video! I've heard this story a million times over but I've never thought about Aaron speaking for Moses and how silly that really is. you've got yourself a sub, sir! I'm looking forward to watching more of your content!
You are absolutely right, 100%. Exodus is nothing but fiction.
And a boring fiction... If compared to the Illiad for instance, It seems written by a an angry 14 years old kid...
Even when I was a Christian I've never understood why god would kill children in this story. Why did god target the first born child of families? Why not attack the pharaoh? Or the military? This is a book that I've references when talking to with pro choice Christians about Planed Parenthood.
+leclereej1 Within the narrative of the story, I think this is the god acting on an eye for eye mentality. This is the most common justification I've heard, and It's still disgusting. Early in the story, the Pharaoh ordered midwives to kill any boys delivered to the Hebrews. They feared the Hebrew god and didn't do as commanded, so Hebrews populated like rabbits. Pharaoh then ordered Hebrew boys thrown into the Nile at birth. Around this time, Moses was placed in the basket and sent on his happy way down the Nile.
+Jackson Chambers Ah, I forgot about that. It's been a while since I've read the bible. That does put things a different perspective, thanks.
+leclereej1 your point still stands, a just and loving god would punish the ruler and not the innocent children. Have a great evening!
Also, if they were all fleeing slaves then why would their wives have had gold earrings to make the golden idol from?? Do slaves normally adorn their wives in gold?
This is pretty easy to answer. After Yahweh ravaged Egypt with plague after plague, the Israelites essensially ransacked the country of what was left of its material wealth, including silver and gold. (Exodus 12: 35-36).
Daryl Carpenter
Thanks :-)
+Daryl Carpenter lol that would cripple the Egyptian economy
the exodus story seems to have evolved to answer the age-old jewish question: "why do shitty things keep happening to such awesome people?"
the answer of course is: "we're actually not that awesome, and our god is much worse."
>"age-old jewish question: "why do shitty things keep happening to such awesome people?"" -- Because they are nowhere near as "awesome" as they make themselves out to be.
+Matt Dillahunty I'm more surprise that Pharaoh didn't convert and accepted god after all this God show of power. Who wouldn't?.. 10 plagues including his own son death.. Pharaoh was all like.. "Nah.. Still not accepting your god Moses"
The same sort of thing happens in the flood story. Noah's family was so impressed by the power of god that they immediately started inventing all the other religions we know today whilst spreading back across the planet.
>"they immediately started inventing all the other religions" -- There is literally NO evidence to support that claim. More likely is that the descendants who drifted away geographically and from the True God created religion that was satisfying to themselves.
@@davidconklin9552 provide evidence that the Noah story happened at all.
Exactly. God decided to save 8 people knowing that their offspring would turn out to be exactly the same as the millions of people that the decided to drown in the first place.
@@davidconklin9552 You... You believe in Noah's story? LOL
@LeoVital I didn't say anything about Noah, your reading and comprehension skills are showing.
When I don’t think words alone can describe being grateful ,
I just say a big thank you Matt D🎳
For all those god-bother-ers who seem to think that slavery was different in biblical times and was much more pleasant, have they ever asked themselves;
If slavery was so pleasant (when compared to the trans-atlantic slave trade, for example) then why was Moses apparently so hot for "freeing his people"? Surely the Jews were being very well taken care of by the Egyptians, right? Why would Moses want to free them from that comfort and impose upon them the horrors of freedom?
That's exactly it Matt - none of these people REALLY act as if a god does exist! It is all quite amusing.
In general I don't like atheists analyzing the Bible, most don't know it well enough. But Matt knows it better than most Christians and he does an excellent job.
***** You seem to think I said something other than than what I did say. I said "know it well enough" not that you need some sort of special insight.
You cannot just pick up a such a huge and historical document and expect to understand it without serious study. Matt makes reference to henotheism which is not mentioned in this section of the Bible at all but it helps explain various aspects of it.
+spoddie
I know many christians who know about the bible far less than an average atheist.
+spoddie "In general I don't like atheists analyzing the Bible, most don't know it well enough."
Nope, the jury says that atheists "in general" are more knowledgeable then your average bible - thumper!
www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2010/09/28/130191248/atheists-and-agnostics-know-more-about-bible-than-religious
+Geppetto50 I do think it's a good idea to have some understanding of the time it was written in before you publicly analyze the bible. I've seen some bible interpretations that were clearly based on modern English usages of words and the people who made them looked like fools because of it. In some cases you could just look at another translation, especially in another language, and the interpretation wouldn't work.
David Straub That doesn't disprove what I said.
Really well spoken and logical.
There are so many stories in the bible where god is reactionary as if he had no clue what was about happen and then reacts with anger only to be pleased with by compassion to stop and then continue with his punishment even after acknowledging his error.
These are the things which are constantly on my mind. Very well put Mr. Dillahunty.
I love this stuff! These types of videos are interesting. It sorta seems like you could (maybe you will?) incorporate some of these thoughts into your book! :)
To me the inconsistencies and illogical elements discussed here only make sense when one considers that the canons are nothing more than a poorly constructed fiction built from a pastiche of different mythologies. I completely agree with Matt's conclusion here.
why does god need a messenger in the first place?! couldn't he just tell everyone the same thing at the same time? apparently, his screwball plan doesn't require efficiency.
KEvron
KEvronista it's really awkward that you sign off your TH-cam comments with your made up nickname...
Very good point.
All his "messengers" were self appointed anyway.
>"why does god need a messenger in the first place?! " -- Atheists on FB have admitted that even if God were to take all of the chairs in the room and slam up against the wall, saying that He exists, they still would NOT believe and instead look fort a naturalistic explanation. God chose to speak through man in ways that the initial audience would understand. It is our job to understand what was the intended message. For example, in Isa. 7:14 the word 'almah means a young woman of marriageable age who is not married. Later when the book was translated into Greek, the translators saw it as a messianic prophecy and used the Greek word parthenos (virgin, in our language).
@@davidconklin9552
Plus, he told us in his book that the earth was created before the sun.
Even if the god of Israel does exist, it's not my concern.
I don't live in Israel.
@@tedgrant2: "he told us in his book that the earth was created before the sun" -- Nope; there was light and dark BEFORE the 4th day. An overly simplistic reading (Dick and Jane level) leads some people to believe that the sun was created on the 4th day. A more nuanced reading suggests that the 4th day was when the 24 hour day cycle and probably the yearly cycle were implemented.
>"Even if the god of Israel does exist, it's not my concern.
I don't live in Israel." -- Not relevant; after the Jews had rejected Jesus as the Messiah, the Gentiles no matter where they live were invited in. See the parable of the wedding in Matthew 22:1-14 & Romans 11:11-31 (where the Gentiles are grafted into the Living Branch (Jesus)).
Matt so glat that i-ve found you having a YT channel, wonderful ! Keep it up, your way of thinking and showing the world the „real deal„ makes us proud !
So Moses has trouble speaking , and yet is able through the use of his rhetoric to change the mind of a god. Inconsistency anyone?
+Tell Max it concerns the Sandman Don't you see? God gave him the power to speak well, so that he could then................convince God...............to not kill the Israelites.................yep, that was God's plan. Can you not see this?
+tricksock That one explanation, I suppose.
+Tell Max it concerns the Sandman
Not necessarily inconsistent; it depends on what Moe's speech problem was.Lots of people can talk to one or a few others perfectly eloquently, but can't talk to crowds.
Michael Sommers I'm pretty sure Moe's speech impediment was the convenient plot device type.
Stories about Yahweh give him form for asking people to do things they can't do.
His first commend to Moe is to 'speak' when he can't speak, and when he sends Gabriel to speak to Mohammed (another Mo) his first command is to 'read', and Mo tells him he can't. Muslims interpret this as meaning Mo was illiterate, but it may just be because either, it was dark in the cave, or because he had nothing to read on him at the time.
Doesn't Moses speak to the whole nation of Israel when he comes down from the mountain, telling them how wicked they've been?
+Tell Max it concerns the Sandman _"Doesn't Moses speak to the whole nation of Israel when he comes down from the mountain, telling them how wicked they've been?"_
Public speaking is a skill one can learn.
I'm convinced that this whole construct is and always has been a simple way to "help" control those among us who can't accept that "this is it" and those who can't control their animalistic tendencies without the fear of eternal damnation.
exactly!!!
These are reactions of what men would do any God worth anything would be more insiteful
I make a Perception check to see if I can find the ball of light again. If not, I ready a lightning bolt since I don't know if there are any more guards in this hospital.
Come to think of it, why would there be need for a "pillar of flame by night"? Did they walk 24 hours a day?
Nope; a sign of protection.
Nope; a sign of protection.
@Lu G. why erupt the volcano instead of just keeping amimals away? Or god could make all animals friendly
Just to add a bit to what he said, it always struck me that after Aron makes the golden calf, he says "Oh Israel, this is your God which hath brought you out of Egypt." Are they really so supremely unskeptical as to believe that new God brought them out of Egypt after what they supposedly saw? Why should we trust anything the Bible says if, by the Bible's own admission, the people back they would believe anything and often on a whim.
Excellent video Matt! Will be sharing it.
Not everyone that believes in a god or gods are right, but they all could be wrong.
Thanks, Matt, for taking time and providing this video content. I value your thoughts on Biblical "history".
Not to mention if the Israelites were God's chosen people, why did God allow them to be slaves in the first place? Whey weren't they the leaders with the Egyptians being the slaves?
Fred Flintstone alot of questions for a person that knows it all..
I didn't go through all of the comments, but one of the commandments was, "thou shall not kill." Immediately after receiving the commandments 3000, people were slaughtered. That commandment null and void, by god and Moses.
God is like that adage about playing Chess with a pigeon. Once the pigeon starts to lose it just jumps on the board and struts around knocking the pieces all over and then shits on it.
Then goes home and shits in its own bed just for the hell of it
It's amazing how some people take this story seriously.
9:30 ... "I am the Lord thy God. ... You shall have no other gods before me."
Exactly.
God doesn't say there are no other gods. God doesn't even say you are not allowed to worship those other gods. God is just the one you are supposed to worship above the rest.
+BrotherAlpha Exodus 12:12 also has God saying he will execute judgment on the gods of Egypt, implying further that they also existed.
+BrotherAlpha Correct because at that point in time judaism was an offshoot of the Canaanite polytheistic faith, the cult of yehweh just chose one of the war gods ;-)
Yes Ben it is all very inconsistent, but you would expect that from a polytheistic faith becoming monotheistic through it's early (ish) history.
+BrotherAlpha Also, check out the variants in Deuteronomy 32.8-9. Pretty strong holdover evidence, though Hebrew and Christian scholars go through a lot of gymnastics to downplay it.
The Masorectic text says: "When Elyon divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the [sons of Israel]. For the Yahweh's portion is his people, Jacob is the lot of his inheritance."
The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint phrasing are very different from the Masorectic text. The Septuagint is older than the Masorectic, and there are differences throughout. The earliest Masorectic text are dated around 900 CE with the Septuagint being translated around 300 BCE. The Dead Sea Scrolls are dated from 250 BCE to 70 CE. The Septuagint's translations are closer to the Dead Sea Scrolls in many of its translations, and while they do not match perfectly on Deuteronomy 32 they are much closer in agreement than the Masorectic text and even hint at the evolution that was taking place.
Septuagint: "When the Most High divided the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the boundaries of the nations according to the number of the [angels of God]. And his people Jacob became the portion of the Lord, Israel was the line of his inheritance".
DSS: "When Elyon gave the nations as an inheritance, when he separated the sons of man, he set the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the [sons of God]. For Yahweh's portion was his people; Jacob was the lot of his inheritance".
There is also Psalms 82 in which Yahweh condemns the sons of Elyon and holds judgement over them as unfit. It also has very strong ties to the Ugaritic text.
"“How long will you judge unjustly, and show partiality to the wicked? Render justice to the weak and the fatherless; vindicate the afflicted and the destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.” They have neither knowledge nor understanding; they walk around in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken. I said, “[You are gods, sons of Elyon], all of you; nevertheless, you shall die like mortals, and fall like any prince.” Rise up, O ’E-him, judge the earth; for you shall inherit the nations!"
religionatthemargins.com/2011/07/the-most-heiser-yahweh-and-elyon-in-psalm-82-and-deuteronomy-32/
***** Yes and that's Wolfen. He is an Indian that turns into a wolf. And as Ignignokt sayth: Wolfen will come for you, with his razor.
11:30 - That sounds like me as a kid. I was raised Christian (mostly just very lightly, "culturally" Catholic) and after that God didn't give me anything in return for worship, I moved onto another one, or just sending a call-out for things from whatever god would help me. Then I just said "screw it, I'm not getting anywhere with this "faith" thing".
ohhh i bring this up to my mum a loonnnnnnnnnggggggg time ago, i said to her you never seen god miracle yet you believe him wholeheartedly, yet you believe a group of people that just currently seen the most powerful miracle demonstration can easily lost their faith? "she answer" that is why god often punish israel, because they are incredibly dense "then i ask" why would god choose a dense group of people? "she answer" god works in mysterious way.
its impressive how religion can turn off a person brain, my mum is very intelligent person, even in her late 70s she is a powerhouse for math base problem (yes i am an asian so does my mum) she can easily remember up to 16 decimal of Pi, but when it comes to her religion she can believe in just about anything, her priest can claim jesus turn their water to sperm and she will believe it no question ask. Its amazing how religion can made someone stupid and insane
Yeah like, We never said we want to be here, so God forces us here and then has an ultimatum. Something is not right!! If we knew this and signed a contract we should be able to remember it and revoke the contract any time. And why did he even let this go on with adam & eve or satan. He should of just deleted everything and started again as soon as he saw that satan became satan, and next time if all went bad again he should of just quit trying. Why put us in this spot of being alive and risking being burned forever if we don´t get it or believe cause we don´t know better?!?!?!
Don´t make any sense!!! Adam & Eve did not even ask for this! How can a God do such thing and let it go on and not just delete and try again until it´s perfect instead of letting it go on and let us suffer for it because of himself being egoistical? OK he gave us life, but if we knew that there would be a risk for us that we will burn forever in hell if we don't pass the "TEST" then we probably wouldn't say yes to it?!? Even if we did there should be something reminding us in a much better way than a book that is perfectly easy to manipulate, and has many questionable parts of it like Exodus 21:1-11, Leviticus 20:13, or Psalms 137:9???? Because of parts like these it makes everything questionable about the bible!!
And why even in a book in the first place, i mean paper, like wtf? Any way, we are forced to this it seems. Then how can God do this to us? So i just can´t believe in a biblical God anymore, i choose to believe in a all loving God with no religion or face or name because then i would not take any risks saying the false name or praying to any false God. But at the same time, why is the world as it is?? Another big weird question... i mean look at all life in the wild, every day is about surviving and not getting eaten or killed. And there is lions and other meat eating animals killing innocent cute vegetarian animals, I mean Wtf!?
What´s wrong with the world? NOT even the innocent vegetarian animals, like (for an example) antelope, and such is given a break. I understand if humans have a hard time for being a dick, then it´s given to him to get what he deserves, but an animal?!? They only live life and do what they do, they don't lie they don´t mock others, they don´t have malevolent thoughts or acts. So we the F are they ripped to pieces by lions. Point is why is life like this in the first place at all`?! It makes no sense if you believe in the bible. God could stop all this, by allowing it he can´t be all loving? How can you argue against this`?
>"why would god choose a dense group of people?" -- As if any other group of people wasn't as dense.
>"why would god choose a dense group of people?" -- As if any other group of people wasn't as dense.
@@davidconklin9552 well the Chinese at the time at least had writing. God could’ve communicated with them yet he choose illiterate, superstitious goat herders.
This persuasion moment between Moses and YHVH is the midpoint of the whole Torah, literally. It falls within the chiastic poem this way. This shows faith and promises work both ways. YHVH seeks loyalty from the Israelites and their earlier ancestors, but Moses holds him to the fire as well. YHVH must show loyalty as well. It's a close, deep relationship. As a chiasm, lines in the beginning of Genesis match lines in the end of Deuteronomy, such that it shows YHVH seeking to create a land for the Israelites out of chaos much like the world was created from chaos. Moses is pushing YHVH forward to maintain his goal, rather than quit and start over... as he contemplates doing.
So, it sounds like only Moses knows about this God, and everybody else just believes him.
+Ben Rios Yes, this is why I'm asking, why are the people acting like only Moses knew about God?
+Ben Rios you weren't there, none of us were :P
Yes and even after witnesses these first 2 by god himself they still fell back to worshiping false idols while waiting for moses, guess god didn't make much of an impression on many of them?
+Ben Rios wait, also how do you define 'jew'?
*****
Well in the Torah it is actually originally patrilineal around the time of Ezra it changed to matrilineal, roman influence? But that is neither here nor there, by Rabbinic judiasm standards is matrilineal.
My question was based on your claim
"Every single Jew recounts the miracle of Sinai EVERY DAY. You guys only ask christians you don't ask us. WE WERE THERE WHY NOT ASK THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE!!!!!!!!!"
As I certainly don't recount it and I was certainly not there, but am a Jew by birth, but as it is a religion that people do convert into (on occasion) and has no racial ties across all jews, by birth is a stupid claim.
Be careful speaking for everyone and making truth claims based on your beliefs.
***** "You were there, Every single Jew that will or does exist or existed was at Sinai, Your Nashama(soul) was at Sinai and was elevated."
EVIDENCE? do you have it?
"and every Jew says the Shema Everyday which recounts our journey out of Egypt. "
But clearly false as many jews do not say the Shema every day, I don't and I know plenty of others that don't, some that even still believe in god don't let alone all the secular jews.
That is why I asked you how you define 'jew', as if it is a racial thing then you are clearly wrong, it is only those who still believe that would say the shema. Even then you are wrong as not all do, but I guess you could say only the ones that are saying it are TRUE jews.
What bothered me about Exodus when I was reading it first time with the golden calf story was, why did the people have so much gold?Seriously, they had just recently been slaves and had only just been freed.Slaves don't really have property of their own. Certainly not gold.They should not have had any gold at all.
Lol
This is pretty easy to answer. After Yahweh ravaged Egypt with plague after plague, the Israelites essensially ransacked the country of what was left of its material wealth, including silver and gold. (Exodus 12: 35-36).
The god of Abraham admits in the commandments that he is a jealous god. I was in a covo with a theist earlier and I had to point out that a jealous god is an evil one. In Greek mythology, Hera is incredibly jealous of Zeus and takes great delight in torchering mankind because of it.
+Ben Rios Do you also have it worked around so that killing all those babies int he flood isn't evil?
HConstantine LOL OF COURSE he does! Not only did God save the world from evil by committing genocide, but all those babies were going to grow up to be evil anyways! What a loving god to think about the children!
***** Omg! Even WE know better than to wipe out an entire animal spices because we deemed them "wicked"! Because we VALUE life! The actions of the biblical God shows he cares NOTHING for life! Even the ones he professes to love! Your idea of calling a God who will destroy what he loves AS his demonstration of love is fucking TWISTED!
+Ben Rios That's because it doesn't exist. If it did I would have been smited for blasphemy a long time ago. Fuck your ha-shem (what a pretensions way of speaking in English!)
***** "God" has nothing to do with my present existence. I stand alive first because my parents fucked and had me. THEY nurtured and kept me safe until I became a man and THEN it became MY responsibility to keep myself alive! The was NEVER a "God" present during that! And if there was/is I dont owe him shit!
Aaron (Leo) and Moses (Aquarius) symbolize the ending of the age of Taurus. The "death" of Aaron, marks the moving of the summer solstice from Leo to Cancer. The "death" of Moses, marks the moving of the winter solstice from Aquarius to Capricorn. Caleb, the dog constellation Canis major, fathers Nun, the fish constellation Pisces. Nun, the fish, fathers Josua/Jesus (2,000 B.C.E.) the lamb (constellation Aries).
As it turns out, Christian morality is the consequence of obedience to a narcissistic deity
It seems that this story only showed up while the Israelites where slaves in Babylon, something that we know actually happened. Seems like a motivational piece, our ancestors survived slavery in Egypt so we can survive slavery in Babylon. But we better not stray in whom we worship ...
money was tight at that time, so the Isrealites pooled their money and had to settle for a lesser god (yahweh). A flawed god. Any good man in the middle east, would of course bargain with the god and decide how much they would invest in a sort of used god that made mistakes. Sort of like Trump the art of the deal.... Bael was in the running until he said, I will be your god but it will cost you more and you don't get Sirius on this model.
>"so the Isrealites pooled their money and had to settle for a lesser god (yahweh)." -- There's no evidence for that.
>"Sort of like Trump the art of the deal" -- Even he got fooled into paying more than the asking price when he bought a hotel! Great business man, NOT!
One reason that the story of the exodus doesn't seem to make sense is that portions of the story are told twice. When the ancient Judeans were compiling their texts (under orders from the Babylonian masters who were tired of the constant bickering over which versions of various stories were true) they often included more than one version of the same story. The different versions of creation in Genesis 1 & 2 are an obvious example of this. The story of how Moses went and got the commandments (and there were far more than ten) is told twice, as is the story of how the tabernacle was constructed. It isn't clear where one version leaves off and another begins in most cases.
Of course, it never helps to try and interpret myths as fact.
What are your thoughts on the findings of Jim and Penney Caldwell, Ron Wyatt and Dr. Kim at Jabal Al Lawz? I would also like to hear your thoughts on the repeated spelling out of YHVH every seven letters, over and over again throughout the length of the book of Leviticus.
As you start the video, with the “miracle” story, it occurred to me that it would be simpler for the god to just heal your friend then and there
I just became a subscriber, thank you!
I watched this one the other night. I meant to comment! Flawless explanation and enjoyable to watch! great work! I have been watching you online since 10 years now I think when people were posting you hosting the AE! I think the first thing I ever clicked on with you in it was you eating a host wafer on the show! LOL
Where did the gold that made the golden calf come from? Didn't think slaves would be allowed to have it.
This is pretty easy to answer. After Yahweh ravaged Egypt with plague after plague, the Israelites essentially ransacked the country of what was left of its material wealth, including silver and gold. (Exodus 12: 35-36).
Red Sea: First, mud. My horses walk over wet dirt from a few days of rain for a few days and it becomes deep mud. Can you imagine 2 million people walking over ocean bottom that been wet for a big bunch of eons?
*****
Would have been a better miracle if He froze the Red Sea at that spot.
*****
Bend? You are being generous.
+jmtnvalley But that's exactly what a miracle is (allegedly), anything goes, so water parts, mud disappears, manna falls off the sky etc etc. It's all effing crap, anyway.
+Steve Smith no, they're better at it cause they invented it. when your the author of bullshit, you have the say on the matter lol
+Ben Rios show us in the interlinear where the floors hardened
Another thing....i dont know if someone already said this but when they get to the promised land people already live there! Wouldn't God know what land He had in mind for His chosen people in this plan and keep it for them til they got there? And the first group that entered to check it out were all killed except joshua(and i think 1 other guy) God told them to destroy all the people in the land. So again He only cared about His people isreal even though He created and loved every person on earth.The whole book of deuteronomy seems to b repeating how jealous He is when everybody wants to worship other gods (mentioning astrology multiple times and ashura poles may have just been carved old trees dedicated to mother earth which seems fairly peaceful to me actually) that He will destroy those who hate Him but love those who follow all His laws completely and on and on...
Isn't the ancient Israelite view of god more like monolatry rather then henothesim? The distinction I see is that monolotry doesn't deny that other gods exist, but they shouldn't be worshipped, whereas henotheism similarly states there is one main god, but in certain circumstances other deities may also be worshipped and sacrificed to. Henotheism is a kind of more tolerant and inclusive version of monolotry. Throughout the Old Testament Israelite worship seems closer to monolotry, at least until 2nd Isaiah, where start to the true beginning of monotheism, where the existence of other gods is outright denied: "I am the first and I am the last; beside me there is no God." (Isaiah 44:6, cf. Isaiah 43:10-11).
Moses blinks and by the time he opens his eyes back up, the Hebrews are already worshiping the trinity of the Bull, the Calf and the Holy Cow
Christians say “there is no way the disciples would go to their deaths for a hoax thus Jesus must have been resurrected” yet they won’t apply the same logic to the exodus.
Brilliantly deconstructed!
Thank you Matt.
Making sense, Matt. As always.
A tale so silly that any reasonably bright child wouldn't believe it really happened.
There has been recent research done be Israeli historians, anthropologists and archeologists that show no evidence of a Genesis movement of people, in fact no movement at all. They propose that there was a social change that occurred that transformed the societies in that area. The key of these conclusions to me, is the fact that Israeli scientists refute an event that is at the core of their religious history. I am interested in what response to this the christian community will give...
The Atheist Experience Fired this guy.
I warned him. God is Love. Everyone Believes Love exists.
Even the Atheists will backstab him.
The Exodus story could be called 'The angry baby sitter' It has the Israelites getting in endless trouble, God coming down and saving their ass. Then they gripe and complain, God gets real angry at them, usually killing some of them. Again and again
Moses and God often chatted about important matters, but not always.
In Numbers 15:37-39 God says that the children of Israel must wear fringes with a blue ribbon.
The fringes are intended to be a reminder of all his commandments.
One of which is to wear fringes with a blue ribbon.
Matt, @ 14:05 what you're saying is atheists aren't justified in starting the argument accusing an all Loving God of considering evil doings because from God's perspective it was actually "delivering this terrible terrifying JUSTICE these people deserved..."
Well if the Bible is God's word, then why didn't God chose a different word in place of *EVIL*, like *JUSTICE*, if the actions were not actually *EVIL* but actually *JUST*? We have every right of accusing God of contemplating evil if that's what the Bible said he did. Furthermore, you have no right to cushion it and curve the meaning of the word *EVIL* because God thought the actions were justified. It does mean God was going to take an action that was evil if that's what the Bible said he was going to do!
Who gives a damn that we are talking about the English of "King James"? Does it change the whole definition of the word evil from modern English? If so, how do you figure and what other definitions of words have changed from KJV's English and modern English? If not, why did it say he repented of the evil if it weren't indeed evil? Evil is an English word and it is clearly defined; profoundly immoral and malevolent.
Also if it said, "and the Lord repented of the evil..." how can one repent; feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin, if it was justice that was being served?!
I've always wondered why this so-called almighty god would use ANY spokesperson. Never, ever made sense to me. Why not just speak for himself/herself/itself? Furthermore, there is a verse in the Bible that says god uses foolish things to confuse the wise. I ask, why? Why would any benevolent being not want to make things clear, plain, and sensible for all sensible people to comprehend? To intentionally orchestrate circumstances to confuse smart people seems more like the machination of a devious being rather than a loving, just god.
Been reading some stuff lately that means it's quite possible a limited Exodus actually did happen (although much of the story was invented, inserted from other tales, embellished and so forth).
According to Egyptian sources, there was a group of people in Canaan around 1200 BCE (they're reported in other sources all over the middle east, originating in Akkadia) called the Abiru/Habiru/Apiru. They're decsribed as escaped slaves, fugitives, nomads, shepherds, and noted for being bandits and mercenaries that were a serious menace to the Canaanite kings.
The name is easy to relate to the "Hebrews", lkely personified in "Abram". The further description makes plenty of sense in the Biblical narrative (the slave origins, shepherds playing a large role, and David most obviously demonstrates the bandit aspect).
Sources further say some of these abiru were taken captive into Egypt during a war around this period. While the Exodus may be largely fictional, we know that around 1200 BCE there were some massive catastrophes in the eastern mediterranian (the Bronze Age Collapse) which brought most empires to their knees, including Egypt. It's not unlikely that this tribe (hardly known for its servitude or loyalty) would have seized the chance to escape. The actual exit story is easy to interpret as the Hebrews slaughtering and pillaging their neighbors on the way out (fits the character). The escape across the sea of reeds could be feasible even - the direct route would have made them easy prey for Egypt's chariots, but a passage through a swamp would have stopped such a pursuit.
Do note, this isn't a story of 2 million Israelites escaping. The Israelite people were distinct, to my knowledge, and likely still in Canaan. Jacob's identification with Israel is easy to interpret as a foundation myth to pretend the two peoples are the same. It's interesting to note when the Bible uses the word "Hebrew" in the old testament: it's not a common word. It's used various times with the patriarchs, quite a few times in the Exodus tale, and has a few occurances in the time of Saul, where it speaks of a group that isn't Israel proper (and is translated as mercenaries in some translations).
============
That doesn't particularly impact the things you said in this video I suppose, but it's given me pause to think that, while the Exodus, Conquest and United Monarchy stories are still very far from fact, they may very well have truth in their cores. As I think Hitch put it, much of the story is simply too stupid or unflattering to be made up. An invention would have been more consistent and flattering :).
Other gods can represent something other than a supernatural being. For example, money, fame and possessions can be considered gods.
Ineloquent Moses suceeds on a diplomacy check against God.
The golden cow in Exodus was an Ancient Egypt Ntr Apis
Around 10:00 onward, Matt mentions that the early Israelites were henotheistic. There was an episode of the Atheist Experience in which (I think) Tracie Harris also spoke about the many gods preceding the monotheism of Judaism. She described them arising via Emanation from the primordial energy, Yaweh being a volcano god. I am trying to track down that episode, and to learn more about this mythology in general. I would greatly appreciate any links, useful search terms. Thanks to you all, in anticipation!
In Exodus it is curious that God has to repeatedly harden the heart of Pharaoh. Presumably had God not done this, Pharaoh might have given way after the first plague? But God makes sure Pharaoh does not "let the people go", by ensuring he defies the plagues. Then God keeps this up until he decides genocide of the first born is his best way forward.
Of course none of this is true anyway as there were no Hebrew slaves otherwise the Egyptians would have written about it, the wrote about everything else.
Hey Matt, would love to see you do a review on 'The Book of Job'.
My Christian intervention subject wasn't convinced when I debated the story of Exodus to him.
When I spoke about how "Moses was able to change Gods mind?",he responded with "Oh, That's just God showing us how he is willing to have a relationship with us".
When I spoke about "Why did they go and worship a golden Calf, after witnessing such awesome power of (you would now think they'd imagine), the ultimate God?". He responded with "Well... they didn't really know what the hell was going on, as you said, they'd just witnessed such pretty awesome stuff, and then when Moses deserted them, they only started worshiping what was familiar to them, as they didn't really know what else to do in that situation"... or something to that extent
Thanks Matt. I never thought to question the first part of exodus beyond the ridiculous plagues. What struck me was when they were wandering in the desert and the people begged to go back to Egypt after witnessing both 'Gods' miracles and his wrath. That alone convinced me this was just a made up story.
The God-Moses-Aaron game of telephone that god plays reminds of the situation in the Quran, where god wants to reveal a message to everyone so that he can write a book for people to follow, and yet silly Allah manages to choose someone (Profit Mo) who cannot even read or write, who then has to speak this on to his companions, who then narrate this to others, which then goes down the chain until it eventually gets to the point where Caliph Uthman, some decades later, manages to get some scribes to write it all down.
What a mess!
Thanks you Matt
It's odd that god would get mad at them for worshipping another god BEFORE he told them not to.
They were told beforehand, it is not recorded. Like how did they know about the Sabbath, BEFORE the Law was given?
Hey, what should the response be if someone said that the answer to all those questions and problems mentioned in the video are explained in the "Oral Torah" or Talmud or Jewish commentaries??? The Oral Torah is the supposed Torah given at the same time the written Torah (the bible) on Mt Sinai. This Oral Torah or Talmud rationalizes the immoralities in the bible and tries to make things sound more moral.
+Barry The Boss
Tell them to play a game of telephone.
Much like your other video talking about Iiar, lunatic or lore... I prefer not to think that these are intentionally lying or screwing up what happened in history so I am forced to ask how would this narative come about...
Why does Moses need Aaron? Because Moses is an outsider and Moses is an educated person with royal ties while Aaron is a priest, trusted and amongst the peasants. So it makes sense that Moses and Aaron were together and even come up with something like, "Oh, I speak on his behalf because he wants what he says to be clear" and if he talks to the pharoh in the narative, again, it would make sense that they make up that Aaron is the speaker to build up Aaron's ability and Moses' trust.
Why do they build the golden statue? That's simple imo. Moses has to come up with how the society should operate. Often times when you want to do that you try to get away from people so that is likely what happened. He told Aaron he was going somewhere to think and will be back. Days passed and he didn't come back so everyone was like "wtf is going on?" and so Aaron who didn't really have a plan came up with something ad hoc.
But what about this whole dialog between Moses and God...? Think about how that sounds...
"God wanted to kill you all, but I convinced him not to. He was going to be all like thunder and lightning all up on your asses, but I stepped in and said, "hey god, chill out, you don't want to look foolish right?" and he bought it, hook, line, and sinker. You people aught to be grateful."
Get it? Sounds very much like a conman, but this establishes several things about the character of Moses and God similar to the whole, "I'll try to keep your daddy from punishing you, but you better not do it again" line of bullshit we're all fed as children
+Durakken The argument is actually "Liar, lunatic, or LORD." But "lore" is pretty damn fitting, too.
xerxestireirondada I know... was a typo.
Durakken
And yet, it's still more likely an explanation than "lord."
+Durakken People make shit up all the time; just look around, there's plenty of books and even films that, while fiction, have some reference to reality; including leaders of worrisome neighbouring countries, places and political and religious climate of the time.
Why would people make shit up when it comes to religion? Easy. It's propaganda aimed at glorifying their god, their tribe, and to encourage worship without dissent. All religions do it. In fact just look at some of the Christian history: they had Saints running around resurrecting dead Children who had been chopped up and pickled in barrels. And some Christians actually believed that rubbish.
What you are trying to claim happened and what is more likely to have happened are different.
It's plainly retarded thinking to propose that israelites completely made up being enslaved by a foreign power that plays little to no role in their history after that point. There is no reason for that to be preserved for thousands of years unless there is actually some truth or metaphorical significance to it. Since there is no metaphorical significance or any "this is why we hate the egyptians" reasoning in it the only option left is that it has some actual historical truth to it.
And no, it's not the people didn't make up stories back then. It's just that they didn't get preserved unless they were important in some way. Do you even know how ludicrious it is to propose that any old story made up could be added to such works like the bible? It is akin to claiming a miracle to propose such things happened or that the people of that era were so stupid they couldn't figure out the difference without there being a significant historical event that would be worthwhile of recording about a heretic.
Matt is a lot more enjoyable to listen to when he's on his own, rather than demeaning, condescending to, and cursing at callers. Maybe he should stick to solo performances.
Maybe you should grow a thicker skin and stop being butthurt.
They become legend. Then some crazy stuff happens and you get gods and religions.
The belief in the Exodus flies in the face of all conventional educational/historical methodology. We would have a large amount of extra-biblical evidence if hundreds of thousands of people left Egypt. At the time, there were many large civilizations between Egypt and Mesopotamia and we would have recorded evidence from these civilizations. Hundreds of thousands of people traveling the Levant yet this giant group of travelers aroused no curiosity or suspicion by these civilizations at all? That's absolutely preposterous. There wasn't even a recorded monotheistic society or deity in Egypt at the time that the Exodus is thought to have happened. The Egyptians would have likely recorded some kind of monotheistic God that their slaves were supposedly worshipping. Yet they hadn't. In my opinion, this story is just as absurd as the story of Noah and his giant wooden box of creatures.
hinting at that episode in the xfiles with that first story , i can't remember what that one is now
I don't know how to debate a christian, that when you tell them a scripture in their book, they say that isn't what it means you have to see it with the eyes of faith, then they tell you something that isn't even there in their book
If you're arguing scripture, then you've already agreed to the notion that their god exists and their bible describes what it wants. You're now arguing about what specifically it is that it wants. That is, you've already dropped into the bible's fictional universe. Essentially, you're arguing about whether you can lift Thor's hammer if his hand is on it: th-cam.com/video/V9w7aWptl6s/w-d-xo.html
What you should be arguing is not the actual meaning, but the fact that the meaning is unclear. That different Christians believe different parts apply or don't apply, are metaphors or not-metaphors, and so on and so forth. And yet, it's the most important book in the world. That is clear as mud. It's the fact that nobody can determine what this god actually wants, that the Christian's interpretation and yours are possibly both valid - it supports _both_ - that is the devastating blow to the bible. There are 100 nice parts and 300 bad parts and all of them contradict each other.
But back up a bit and start from the beginning: why should I believe this god exists at all, before we get to whether or not the bible describes what it wants, before we get to which interpretation is correct. Remembering, of course, that the bible is not evidence for the god which only the bible claims exists. Otherwise the Thor comic book is evidence for the existence of Thor.
Don't get bogged down in Thor's hammer. They'll read into it exactly what they want to. Their god is simply an external projection of their own ego. Which is why their god thinks so much like they do.
I believe the Exodus was just a Harry Potter book for Ancient people, just a work of Fiction. Who isn't impressed with Magick?
My interpretation,
Moses learned his Magick in Egypt, wanted a piece of Pharaoh's pie, Pharaoh told Moses to Fuck Off, a Wizard's Duel ensued, also known as the 10 plagues. (His+story=history.)
Blood Sorcery, the blood over Doorstep, so the Angel of Death would know who not to kill.
The Breastplate of Aaron, Trithemius, or the art of drawing spirits into crystals, Aaron uses his 12 crystals to command the 12 angels to manifest 12 plagues, although only 10 are mentioned, there may have been 2 plagues that were omitted or not needed.
Moses took a Polytheistic system and changed it to a Monotheistic one. So one all powerful god, but with angels and demons?
If a spirit is immortal and has powers, that is a god. I don't care what label they ascribe to the spirit it's still a god. I'd like to know how Christians can tell the difference, when the angels have been God's murderous assassins, nothing is mentioned about the Demons doing any evil.
Hey Matt. Maybe you’ll get this. I hope so. One thing that would help is if we could keep facts straight. One being that Israel (as in the people...Israel, not the bogus state in the Eastern Mediterranean) was never ever said to have been in Egypt. Not in the Hebrew. It was Koine Greek translations that changed MTsRYM to Aegeptos and Egypt has no records of any Biblical happenings. They were in MTsRYM. And not Mizr, a little backwater in Saudi Arabia. They were never in Egypt. Egypt never had “Pharaohs”. The Jews have no direct evidence of being the descendants of the Israelites: not in factual reality, not according to Biblical signs and prophecy. Those two facts alone, if kept in mind, will help in alleviating further confusion on the matter.
What if the Exodus is a parable about having “faith”/will power/ determination through hard or difficult times when you might want to give up? Fighting toward a better outcome? I sure feel this way in Med school... 😞
The cover photo of this video is Matt saying and says "hey look at that bird!"
@12:00 I too have wondered how they could turn away from god after XYZ but we don't know what addling came from their enslavement
The example of Moses burning up the golden calf and turning it into powder sounds a lot like Mfktz cakes from ancient Egypt.
Apart from the single argument from ignorance fallacy, great video.
+ahouyearno Which part had an argument from ignorance fallacy? Not watched entire yet.
MMDE around 12:00 he says that he can't imagine people abandoning their god after such a succesful exodus filled with miracles.
That's an argument from ignorance fallacy.
ahouyearno That sounds more like an argument from personal incredulity. Yes, it's not a sound argument, but that's not the argument being made here, but rather that it's an example of strange behavior that makes the story more questionable.
MMDE I stand corrected. Yeah it's personal incredulity.
I tend to watch debates a lot (thanks Matt!) and phrases like "the chances are incomprehensibly small" and "I don't know of any possibility" just trigger my fallacy spidey sense.
ahouyearno They are just just short hands for some of the more common informal logical fallacies, which in turn all? are non-sequitur, that the conclusion doesn't necessarily follow from the premises. It says nothing about the if the conclusion is correct or not, only that it doesn't necessarily follow. It can be hard to differentiate between some of the fallacies, like in this case, and I honestly think both covers it, but personal incredulity is more precise. "I can't imagine how x is true, but I can imagine x being false, therefore x is false". While the other is more, "x is not proven false, so you can't know for sure x is false, therefore x is true". :s
But yeah, it's all just about finding conclusions that doesn't necessarily follow from the premises.
WOW! why not choose aaron?? 'cause moses was an ex-royal SMH
Exodus 19.4. Moses/Ganymede (Aquarius) carried up to Mount Olympus. Moses was Hebe before he became a pretty boy. In Greek mythology, Ganymede is a divine hero whose homeland was Troy. Homer describes Ganymede as the most beautiful of mortals, and in one version of the myth, Zeus falls in love with his beauty and abducts him in the form of an eagle to serve as cup-bearer in Olympus.
What about the different versions of the Ten Commandments?
Philip Shepherd erm- what book are you reading? 😂
Only one way it's in Exodus 34:26 where Moses goes back up Mt Sioni and gets a second copy of the Ten Commandments as he smashed the first copy.