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Atheist Debates - Nothing fails like prayer
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ส.ค. 2024
- Part of the Atheist Debates Patreon project: / atheistdebates
Despite countless claims of the efficacy of prayer, there's simply not good reason to think that prayer is effective and the Bible contains confusing and seemingly contradictory descriptions of prayer. Can you get anything you ask for? Do you need 1 person or 2 or 3 people to agree? How can you tell if the prayer is the reason for an occurrence? Does any of this make sense...can we come up with anything that might count as 'prayer works'?
Prayer is a great way for some to think they are helping when they're doing nothing. But then they have their conscience settled.
Plus, it means they don't have to put their hand in their pocket and actually give something real.
But it is useful for changing ones own inner narrative. If you pray against yourself
Funny how no one ever thought to end all disease, suffering, poverty, and wars with prayer.
"God helps those who help themselves." I remember hearing this a lot growing up. I came to realize that you can't tell the difference between you doing something on your own and you doing something with God's help. They are indistinguishable from each other. There is a longer story here, but this was one of the first and most important cracks in my faith's foundation that ultimately lead to me becoming an atheist.
Exactly. I feel you all the way. Religious people act as if they don't understand this.
Apparently god is so incompetent that we need to do his miracles for him and then give him the credit for no reason at all.
If you did it yourself then why would ask God for anything?
@@2l84me8 I agree with you and I think the right term to use is *Utterly Incompetent* . Well wait...... there is NO god.
God helps those who help themselves is not biblical. If you can help yourself God doesn’t need to help you. God helps the helpless.
I can't believe I fell for this stuff (prayer) most of my life.
Eric Von Wedel right! I’m 39 and I’m just waking up. Nearly fucking 40 and I’ve been talking to myself every night for 5 Minutes. Wtf?
Prayer works like self hypnosis....did you ever keep track of your prayers and if they came true?
The Other Side it’s the strangest thing. When you stop making excuses for God then you’re left with a hard reality.
It's always interesting seeing comments like these, my experience is different. Even when I was a Christian I thought prayer was bs. I always thought that if God knows everything and he has a plan then praying was pointless. Honestly I credit my mom for being okay with me asking question
As a Christian prayer always felt pointless because “everything goes according to God’s plan” and well... never felt like anyone was listening anyways
Prayer is entirely for the benefit of the person doing the praying. It's like signing an online petition: it gives you the feeling that you did something meaningful when you didn't. I had a family member who didn't visit me while I was in the hospital but told me afterwards that the reason they didn't was that they prayed for me instead. To me, that was worse than forgetting I was sick or not caring. because they did nothing but I was put in the social position where I had to thank them for it. By the way, I'm still sick and disabled 8 years later so you can't even make the argument "hey, at least it worked!"
I've never really known how to reply to "I'll pray for you". On the one hand they think they are doing something for you so thanks is in order. Conversly if some one told me they will indulge in sexual fantasies about me as a compliment to how attractive they find me I would neither thank them nor be expected to. I tend to go for a flat "ok" as ultimately they have informed me of a task they will perform later for their own benefit that has no bearing on me. Like a stranger telling me they'll be taking their trash out later.
Prayer is the same as writing letters to Santa clause it really works I got an assault rifle for x-mas and killed God like it was wonderful just heavenly
“Instead of visiting you in hospital, we closed our eyes and talked to ourselves.” Th-thanks..
@@jonathandavies1716 Just inform them and direct them to this video.
I'm sorry that happened to you.
Maybe it's the mixed fabrics that are keeping prayer results at 50%. Delicious shrimp could be to blame as well.
ShadinCore fabulous hurricanes
There's a saying that I found Hispanic atheists making after the Mexico earthquake:
"Cuatro patas que ayudan valen mas que mil manos que oran."
Meaning: "Four paws that help are worth more than thousands of hands which pray.
This was a reference to the rescue dogs which were saving people from the rubble being (obviously) more helpful then the thousands or millions of catholics or christians who were praying for the people of Mexico.
Kamtuxutl I love that saying, though if I used it I think people would think I'm bashing their religion. *shrug* I've discussed this kind of thing before and people are weirdly defensive about it even if I just bring up objective studies and facts. If they think their word is gospel and always correct, shouldn't they wish to give their evidence so we all believe? Why not? Because their evidence doesn't exist in the first place.
A similar take on that sentiment is "praying hands wield no tools."
I will take those sayings and use them. Thanks :)
The dupers that propagate this shit must be laughing at the gullible believers as they get down on their knees and pray. They must be thinking "I can get these fuckwits to do anything! Maybe they will protect me when I get caught diddling little boys."
Did they just imply that rescue dogs are smarter than most theists?
Because if they did, then this is actually very hard to disagree with :D
Of all your videos, sir, this has hit home tremendously. Been a Christian pretty much all my life and theres no subject that has troubled me more than this one on PRAYER.
I prayed for religion to go away. ... Wait...
Well God told me he doesn't exist sooo..i have reason to be atheist
@@blixx8931 If a god actually told you that he doesn't exist, then he(she or it) contradicted itself. Of course he exists if he blatantly came up to you and said that! 😂
@@JacobHayden911 yeah i always thought of that as a joke. There is no god though
Martymer 81 fucking genius Over there
@@JacobHayden911 yeah i meant it to be stupid
Don't forget George Carlin in the bibliography. "Whaddya want him to do, change his plan?"
tctheunbeliever i once asked a minister why we prayed if god knew everything. He said because the bible said to. Basically i realised it was begging to this god?!
But he love you...he love you and he needs money!!....lol
Also:
"What's the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayer book can come along and fuck up Your Plan?"
Wrong, we a defective creature that can change the mind of a deity who already got the plan set. Silly human race.
But remember kids, pray ONLY to Joe Pesci! 'cause he's a great actor.
Robert Clary, from his wonderful memoir, From the Holocaust to Hogan's Heroes:
"After I found out that none of my family who was deported came back, my prayers ended, and so did my belief in God. What did my parents, who were extremely religious, my sisters and the rest of my family do to deserve such an end to their lives? Where is the justice? These gentle people who tried to make decent lives for themselves - why would God take them away so cruelly? To teach a lesson? Nothing has been learned from their deaths. Man's inhumanity to man still exists."
The holocaust and WW2 in general is one of the main reasons why I ran from god and everything that the bible stands for. I am truly sorry for your family, and how cruel I was and we all can be. I am not the same man that I was after watching videos and documentaries on the holocaust. It sickened me to my core, and I died along with those people mentally and psychologically. This did make me realize how cruel we all are, but this is not the way that it should have to be, for us to understand not to do this, in order or to see how cruel it is. If there is a god, then god let's it happen. I could never sit and watch this unfold. Your family has not died in vain, maybe for alot of ignorant fools who don't understand they have, but for me, no. Best to you now and always, anyone like Robert.
Don't you blame this on God! (There is no God...)
@@youtubenatan Very well said! Sorry I am just seeing this comment now for some reason
@@toughenupfluffy7294 exactly
The reason why Faith Healers don't work at a hospital, is the same reason that Psychics don't play the lottery.
They pray to a God that preys upon them.
Above Beyond the believers pray to God while the religious leaders prey on their children.
I like dis guy. He is da Best I tell ya, da BEST.
You say you will pray for me. You realize you ARE prey for me! - Reckoning Day, Megadeth
Cognizant Slave ha! Good one! MegaDeth! I still try to wrap my mind around what Metallica would be like I Dave never left.
Who put Matt in the corner??
I really like your low key one on one style of videos.
It's really tough suffering through a full debate, or phone call listening to the same arguments I've heard all of my life, and that I used to make.
I have the same thoughts. AXP, for all its years, continues to entertain illogical and stubborn callers. I get tired of hearing the same ol', same ol' every Sunday, and now, Wednesday with Hang Up. I think, unless I'm bored, I'm going to steer away from those call-in shows and just look for content like this which is to the point and delivered so well.
What always gets me is that if praying for something within God's plan, then God was going to do it *anyway*, so by definition, the prayer didn't help/
SiriusMined I remember that dog! Hope you're doing well (I'm a sub from a long, long time past).
I am, thank you! :-)
SiriusMined And the inverse, if Christianity is true, would also be true: if what you pray for is _not_ in God's plan, no amount of prayer would make God change is plan. Not to mention that God us omniscient and omnipresent (so God exists in all tines and places all at once) for God there would be no past present or future, since God is everywhere and everywhen at the same time and being omniscient, even if God experienced time linearly, he already knows everything it will ever do, so no amount of prayer could change what God already knows it will do. This is actually a paradox because if God cannot do otherwise but what it knows it will do, then God lacks the _power_ to change anything, so is not omnipotent since it lacks a power. That's just my opinion, I could be wrong :)
The answer I always get is that it’s a way of proving your devotion-to an all-knowing being. You could literally be catatonic but conscious and God would know your intentions and “heart”. No church attendance/Bible-reading required.
That’s called the prayer paradox. Carlin spells it out well in one of his routines
When some disaster happens, I flip a coin for them. It works exactly as well as prayer!
Excellent video. Here's another thing: Somehow it's always the apologists giving the excuses for God and not God himself. He never says "I'm not answering your prayer because there's some sin in your life" or "your prayer isn't according to my will so I won't do it". Instead he leaves apologists to speculate about why it wasn't answered.
Yeah, god is the most selfish of them all.
Theist: I'll pray for you.
Me: And I'll think for you.
I use this one.
Well, you're horrible at thinking. They are better off without you.
@@CelticVictory God is also horrible at answering prayers, he's better without them
@@Sammie551 No, this world is a horrible place. He's better with God.
@@CelticVictory No, he's better without believing in a fairytale to bring comfort to him and actually make things happen for himself.
I really hate when they say "well sometimes god says yes, sometimes he says no and sometimes he says wait". It's painful that they don't realize that this "answer" will be the same if i pray for any god or anything in the universe. And it is funny that if any other religion makes the same claim they'll denounce it, totally hypocritical. It just pisses me off.
Point them to the jug of milk: www.godisimaginary.com/video8.htm
I like the George Carlin line "I pray to Joe Pesci, and i get the same results i used to get from God when i was nine years old and i believed in the invisible man in the sky."
Just remind them that you get the same or even better answers from a magic eight ball
Nacasius Ah you beat me to it lol
I have dyslexia so I can't make out your name - but thanks for the link to that site.I will certainly be spreading the word.
Science flys you to the moon and religion flys you into buildings
I am sympathetic to this aphorism, but to be fair, science is just a tool that can be misused and religion, while unjustified epistemically not all religions encourage violence. So, hypothetically, one could come up with another pithy aphorism that contains as much truth but also omits some truth, like :
Science gets you Hiroshima; religion gets you thursday night bingo
Or something. My point is that the moon vs buildings aphorism is not really fair. And that comes from a science nerd who thinks science is the greatest tool for generating useful knowledge and religion is all unjustified dogma built around agenticity and fear of dearh, lol :(
There is nothing wrong with destroying the bible you find in the motel or hotel room your staying in
Nobody went to the moon. It's a HOAX.
The Hammer No. you’re a HOAX
Science believe we come from rocks haha
I was baptized into a church at 18 and believed it was the only true church. I followed the teachings to the best of my ability and truly believed. After 15 years, and a couple of organizational changes, it split up. I prayed hard for God to make the path clear to me…which way to go. No response. I understand that some prayers can’t be granted. For example, people can’t be healed forever, we all must die at some point. But for God not to answer a prayer for guidance on how to worship him….that I could not understand. That was 30 years ago and I haven’t attended church since. I’m a strong agnostic, borderline athiest.
People need to be watching this now. Magical thinking is no protection in a pandemic.
I haven't been to any hospital, doctor, haven't taken any medicine for almost a decade now, because of my poverty, no cov Vax either, but only by Jesus Christ's help guess who is still alive, 100% healthy and jovial, yea right, me 😊
Now tell me when was the last time you went to the hospital ?
@@CertainCharism I've never been seriously ill in my life actually. I had a mild fracture in my wrist playing volleyball in high school decades ago. Well, maybe Jesus protects atheists too.
But that's not the interesting part. What really requires an explanation from you isn't healthy atheists, but sick and dying Christians. It's easy for you to talk about "Jesus Christ's help", but that's survivorship bias. Only the Christians who survive their preternaturally stupid rejection of medicine get to talk about it. Take a moment and think about that. We don't hear from Christians whose faith lead them to die... because we can't.
I know a very religious former schoolmate of mine who moved to Florida (i'm not American, I'm South African) and was vehemently anti-vaxx. Last I heard was in 2020 when he was crowdfunding for a lung transplant, I'm fairly sure he died.
But you're lucky, Jesus looks after you not all the other people. Aren't you special.
@@stephengalanis
As suspected lol, the over the top cocky mind of an atheist which causes him to miss things and make a clown out of himself.
What did I say ? Read again then ! I said that because of poverty,
Because of poverty and circumstances I couldn't afford any medical aid
@@stephengalanis
And you're a dumb one, if you have ever read the Bible then you surely would have known about the whole story of Job, God loved Job, then why did God gave Job all the catastrophical tragedies and illnesses ? Does it means God hated Job ? 😏😌
You see, that's how tiny and closed the mind of a cocky atheist is who thinks he or she knows more than a Christian.
@@stephengalanis
And you're correct, Jesus Christ protects atheists too !
th-cam.com/users/shortsSAySDNnEUO8?feature=share
Why is he sitting in a wooden container? Is he being shipped somewhere?
Do the Christians hate him so much that he has to travel in a wooden crate?
I have to admit, prayer was most definitely one of my biggest stumbling blocks when I reached early adulthood. I read books where prayer worked, I heard stories where prayer worked, I saw examples in the Bible where prayer worked. But I never saw any examples with my own eyes of a "big" prayer being answered. I honestly thought there must be something wrong with my ability to pray if my Grandma couldn't get better after her stroke. I don't doubt that moments of reflection and mindfulness are helpful when you are trying to accomplish a goal - but you have to ask yourself, was it prayer, or was it because you were just so focused?
Prayer is a win-win activity. If a sick person gets well, that's the power of prayer. If he dies, then god has other plans or god moves in strange ways.
Brilliant talk Matt! Hope you are well.
Always nice to listen to Matt, he makes so much sense.
The fact of the matter is that religious people don't care about what studies say about it....it's all psychological for them anyway and they will do it regardless of the study results. It's also the fact that God gets the benefit of the doubt no matter what. If they heal, glory to God! If they don't, then it wasn't God's will.
if they heal that is "supernatural" modern medicine cannot explain...so
Hey Matt thanks for the video, i've tried speaking to my family about this time and again but they rely on prayer soooo much that it becomes self destructive...keep fighting the good fight Matt
Excellent video Matt ..these are verses and things I used to think about often and struggle with when I was a believer.
I recently came across a believer who used the 'If you were right with god you would know thats not part of his plan' cop out. I asked if anybody knew gods plan and they replied, i swear to fuck, 'nobody knows his plan. thats why we pray'
how can you possibly deal with somebody like that?
Is this Matt's official page? Didn't realize Im already a subscriber. Awesome to see some uploads! Keep spreading knowledge!!
Steve G Welcome to the channel! He posts a lot but sporadically depending on his schedule
Recently A Perfect Circle put out a nice little song called TalkTalk. It has become the background music that plays in my mind whenever I hear the thoughts and prayers line being used. While not exactly the same thing, your words here and those of that song compliment each other incredibly well.
Definetely not the same song. Talk Talk by A Perfect Circle and Talk Talk by Talk Talk are entirely different. The other song is pretty catchy
At my med school they had an optional lecturer come in a month ago to talk about his experience with prayer and treating patients. It was difficult not to throw up sitting in the back row as this person talked about how people are predetermined to die at a certain time and medical care won't increase a persons life span a day more than god intends them to live (this was coming from a physician!). I couldn't believe someone who calls themselves a scientist would go around teaching students about how spontaneous remissions of cancers were miracles and how religious people live a longer and healthier life. Wish we could have had you there to offer some counter points
Whomever brought that quack in should probably be fired.
What idiot had the idea to bring him in in the first place?
What do you call the guy that comes in dead last in his medical school?
Doctor
I work as a cardiac nurse, and have often patients where I have to adjust iv medications on the spot or they spiral into a vicious circle that will kill them.
It is not any god who save them, it is the researchers who have made the medications and medical equipment that make it possible to diagnose, monitor and treat the patient, and the expertice among doctors and nurses to use the equipment and medications the correct way.
Daniel: vicious, not viscous. Viscous means sticky or gel-like.
I use _my lucky, lucky chicken bone!_ ; )
How lucky was the source of a lucky rabbits foot?
And then dry fart 3 and a half times for good measure and such forth
Awesome video Matt... Keep them coming.
My mother has been "crying out to God in prayer" for several years to save my brother from hell fire because he is an Atheist. Now I'm an Atheist. I guess our mother wasn't praying the right way, or maybe she isnt right with God. 😂
Or God does not exists or he does not care.
Jennifer, what 'hellfire'??
If your dear mum's a Christian, she should know that 'hellfire' so called, has no place in the entire bible as a literal place.
Hellfire is a metaphor.
Hell is the grave. Sheol. That's all.
Ask your mum to look into what the Jewish people consider hell to be.
Then remind her that Jesus was a Jew.
Advise her to take a look at Christian Universalism and to get a Youngs literal version bible.
May be a good idea to remind her that Jesus is the saviour of all mankind. Not only those who believe.
My oldest and closest friend is an athiest. He was athiest decades before it became fashionable.
I really, really don't worry about him going to some imaginary pagan torture chamber simply because he doesn't believe in Jesus.
@@spiritof6986 Thing is Jews don't believe in the Devil either but the Devil is central to Christianity.
My relationships 😂😂😂😂 fail like prayer!!!!
"The bible is always crapping on tax collectors just amuses me"
Slave-owners: bible's cool with them, but tax collectors: bastards!
Nothing like a good olde fashioned loose fart for austerity, and such forth
There have been studies that prayer for yourself can have benefits similar to the benefits of meditation. Nothing mystical, just you helping yourself
Very well said, Matt. Your words are like music to my ears.
Matt, thank you forv all of your videos. I'd love to hear your comments on Alcoholics Anonymous; in a full video similar to these.
I think the verses akin to "ask and you shall receive" could be interpreted in the context of being poor as a christians and still being able to fulfill ones mission.
Meaning luxurious riches cannot be gained and punishments, personal chastisement and your earthly destiny/first death can not be avoided. The apostles surely prayed that the towns of Capernaun and Bethesda shall convert, but if god would do all the work for us and leave nothing of importance to us, no illusion of achievement or progress, one would surely become bored and depressed.
Luke 12:22-24 & 27-28 NKJV
Then He said to His disciples, “Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; nor about the body, what you will put on. Life is more than food, and the body is more than clothing. Consider the ravens, for they neither sow nor reap, which have neither storehouse nor barn; and God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds? [...] Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; and yet I say to you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. If then God so clothes the grass, which today is in the field and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will He clothe you, O you of little faith?
Hebrews 12:5-11 NKJV
And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
“My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”
If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
1 Corinthians 10:13 NKJV
No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.
The one guy in PR that was "right with god" was praying for the Hurricane.
I prayed, then used essential oils, then got a massage, then my back felt better! Prayer and essential oils work!!!!! /sarcasm :p
Lets form a new religion with essential oils as god.
I don't pray anymore, I just use my essential oils!
I so much appreciate them I tell THEM!
True healers!
I don't agree with your conclusion, but I do appreciate your analysis. Everything should be scrutinized. Too often, we are cradle Christians who know nothing about our own religion.
I'll tell you what I think. I think that, for some, prayer is a medicine that gives them hope. Hope it's everything for some. And, without it, many will sink into dispair and possibly commit suicide.
I don't know if God answers prayers sometimes, only for the righteous or maybe for the persistent. To me, it doesn't matter. If someone, anyone, out there feels that they need something in order to survive, you must pray. You must pray until that prayer is answered, you no longer need it or until you die and can't pray anymore.
Never give up and let hope be the last thing they take from you.
If prayer makes you feel better, so be it, but do not let that keep you from helping others; visiting retirement homes and supporting better healthcare helps.
This is great. Love listening to Matt always
Matthew 7:7 “Ask, and it will be given to you seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Matthew @ And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.”
Mark @ Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
John @-14 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it
According to the Templeton Foundation prayer study, prayer doesn't work, so god is lying, he makes promises he does not keep; he is unreliable
Most people ignore those parts. They say ask according to his will but ignore those other parts it's is pure garbage
as an atheist for at least 15 years, i can attest to the efficacy of prayer. i kinda hit an atl over the last year, and it actually had me praying to a deity i only believed in those moments of my despair. i realize now that some of what i experienced were psychotic symptoms, but nonetheless, i felt relief when i prayed. does my testimony prove that deities exist? of course not. does it prove that prayer provides emotional relief? yes. that's it. is my testimony evidence for deities??.. yes, it is. Even though it is my belief now that my experience was a delusion brought about a major depressive episode, it is still possible that god was reaching out to me during an emotional low-point in my life. A christian would be right to point that out. However, it is just infinitely more likely that my ability to reason as i normally would was affected heavily by an emotional crisis I was suffering from at the time. Even if I would like to maintain a belief in god, as a skeptic, I cannot rule out mental illness. The whole experience really softened my heart for the sincerely religious people out there. 'cause mental illness, specifically major depression, is something that poisons all people at some point in their life and it doesn't care which religion you subscribe to. If you are someone who has experienced psychosis, or are a schizophrenic, and also happen to be devoutly religious, what tools does god give that person? If i'm a diagnosed schizophrenic, how do i know when god is communicating with me if it's spiritual relationship? what sets it apart from the other voices you hear?
What kind of immoral god requires sycophantic prayers before he acts to quell suffering? A truly righteous god would do so long before anyone even thought to ask for it.
Dogma and Brazil are two of my favorite movies.
With my upbringing, everything is God's Will whether you get what you prayed for or not. The ole "he works in mysterious ways" was a family mantra.
More excuses for God...
@@inspectorbudget accurate
Exactly - so it's God's will that a baby is born with a hole in its heart???
So I was recently put on the spot and led a prayer in front of the entire congregation for the dinner following my mother's funeral. It was a beautiful prayer if I can say so myself. It has been probably 8 years since I've prayed. My first thought after saying Amen was "okay, here I am giving advice to God".
"Therefore everyone who confesses me before men, I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men, I will also deny him before my Father." Matthew 10:32-33
I still can't understand the mental gymnastics of those who talk of "god's will" and then pray for god to do something. If "god" is going to do "his will" no matter what, there's absolutely no point in praying for *anything*. Hurricane's coming. If it hits and kills everyone: god's will. If it only kills half the population: god's will. If it misses and no one dies: god's will. No amount of praying is going to change that.
You'll get people who believe god answers *all* prayers and then, when what they pray for doesn't happen, say "sometimes god's answer is 'no'." - Again, what's the use in praying? It's just another way of phrasing the "god will do his own will" argument while _claiming_ to believe the bits about "god answers all prayers" - 'Double-think' of the highest order. And you've got to wonder why a "loving god" would answer 'no' to prayers like "please don't let that hurricane kill all those children" or "please take that child's cancer away" - or why a "loving god" *sent* the hurricane or *gave* the child cancer in the first place.
They'll claim "god does it to make us stronger" - yet if you went out and murdered someone and, at your trial, tried to claim "well, I was doing it to make his widow stronger and give her the impetus to be independent, raising her children by herself", you wouldn't get a particularly good response. People might well wonder what sort of *monster* would harm an innocent person just to teach another a life lesson - funny how believers don't apply it to the "god" they worship. "You gave my kid _cancer_ and burned our farm down with wildfires just to 'make me stronger'? WTF? You couldn't have made me stronger some _other_ way? Like, you know, just _making_ me a strong person at the outset?"
Someone always asks for prayer on Facebook. I feel empathy for others and I hope they get well, of course, but what can I say?
1. Lie and say "I'll pray for them".
2. Say "I'll hope for them".
3. Say "prayer doesn't work, but I truly hope they get better anyway".
4. Say nothing and make it seem as if you don't care or are not willing to "Ask Jesus for help".
5. Say "let's all stop with the prayers, they don't work, even though you might think you're actually doing something".
Prayer helps you relax and arrange your thoughts. 😮
So it's just therapy?
Yeah, that verse was the start of the end of my faith at about 9 years old.
Any time anyone has suggested they would pray for me, I recognized it as the insult it is. I was never sick when it was offered, I simply didn't agree with their story. So, of course I needed their self-righteous prayers.
Story of my life, I lost my mom and most of my family to religion
prayers can go 2 ways, either they work or the don't and if they don't it was god's plan so what is the point if god has a plan? if it works how do we know it was the prayer and not chance?
Does positive self-talk help people? For example, a student has a big final coming up and every morning and every night they internalize a small mantra to be positive, to study hard, to avoid distractions, etc. Would that be helpful for some people? What if some of those people who would be helped by this are religious and did the same mantra but in their mind it was in the form of a prayer?
It may help people to some extent, by changing their own attitude/focus/state of mind. But when praying for things that are out of your control (which was kind of the point), there's no evidence that it has any effect.
A message needed now more than ever
This is great, Matt. Thank you!
I do think the behavior of prayer increases people’s empathy and gives a communal way to offer commiseration- as well as I’ve seen it encouraging people to reach out and help the person they’re praying for. Also gives the opportunity to verbally express all the good one wants for another. I am making no claims on whether it has a supernatural effect, but from an anthropological perspective it definitely serves a purpose.
Um...no. It actually decreases the likelihood that anyone will reach out and actually help another, because why not let God take care of it? After all, we DID pray...
No, what is really happening is that people are shrugging off their social contract to help those less fortunate than they are, by using prayer to bury their responsibility to help others in some substantially material way.
@Toughen Up, Fluffy prayer on its own might have that effect but I think religions do have something like the effect he was claiming, at the very least it creates another way of making a in group and creating consolidarity with your tribe and shared ethic.
"There isn't a believer on the planet, who hasn't been frustrated that in their moment of desperation, they have cried out to the god that they believe in, for something that feels essential to them, and they haven't received it."
"When it comes to defending prayer apologists don't have one"
In Matthew 18 it begins by saying:
" It was less than an hour later that the disciples came up to Jesus and asked:
‘Which [of us] will be the greatest....."
Again, Jesus was speaking to his disciples not all believers of all times.
It would appear that the empowerment of prayer and other supposedly supernatural abilities was reserved for a select segment of 1st century saints. Today's believers are pretenders who've asserted themselves and their generation into writings intended for a select few nearly 2000 years ago.
I wasted 36 years of my life on pure delusions.
Could it be simpler? Prayer to me is like asking a parent for something. My parents didn't always tell me yes, and I was more likely to get a yes if it was something that was in line with what they had going on. "Can we stop by the comic book store on the way to Walmart?" If there were time and no other competing priorities, I could expect a "yes". If I got a "no", they probably had something else to do that I didn't know about. However, if I didn't ask at all, the chances of stopping by the comic book store were slimmer.
Matt you brought up those verses Mathew 18 verses 16-18 and they bring a specific pain to me! I earnestly prayed for guidance on which church to go, pleading and literally crying to God to show which church was His true church! Those prayers led me all over the place maybe Catholicism, maybe Orthodoxy, maybe the Protestants were actually correct and brought the church back which led to a whole other mess of questions, ultimately those prayers led me to be an atheist/ non theist, but Catholics they abuse the hell outta that verse and have led many people to either subdue and convert or people like me with internal torment on which church was true! Thankfully because i used the Bible to try and find answers on that front I dug deep and found out about the shaky history of the Bible which again ultimately led me out of the faith altogether! If Christianity was the truest of truths, then why are there critical differences between each denomination? What I think i maybe found out is that the Bible is extremely confusing, and a lot of things are up to interpretation which is why there is a mess today! Thanks for all the work you do! I honestly didnt find out about you until I was out of the faith, but you’ve put a lot of my exact thoughts into more elegant and articulate words and sentences lol!
Religion a curable mental condition, if effected get professional help.
More research needs to be done on this subject. History has shown that a complete recovery is possible, yet a large percentage of the population are never cured and many show no interest in even seeking a cure.
You don't order God about like he is a bellhop. That is not what prayer is.
2:20. Matt accepts the Templeton study’s conclusion that recovering patents who knew folks were praying for them suffered because of STRESS. They felt an unhealthy stress to I prove because they did not want to disappoint those who prayed for them. This reflects a misplaced trust in methodological naturalism.
This effect is also what we might expect if we suppose a maleficent god, as per Stephen Law.
A maleficent god which heard intercessory prayer on behalf of another would tend to worsen rather than improve the patient’s health.
So, in response to me accepting a possible natural cause, you propose a supernatural cause that wasn't considered and is just an ad hoc excuse. How pathetic.
@@SansDeity Hey, don’t be angry!
I am just pointing out that the data support a maleficent god as well as a naturalistic cause. It was meant in good humour. I suppose most theists prefer not to accept maleficent gods, although there are some I think (Zoroastrianism? ) that accept a reasonably even-handed cage-match between good and evil forces, though with the-Spoiler Alert- guarantee that the good guy wins. Again, none of this is my wheelhouse.
I have elsewhere pointed out that the odds of intercessory prayer are much better in college football games (at least 50:50) than they are in mostrefugee camps (1000s:1). Hence, God loves football?
So true Matt you guys opened my mind to all this diatripe.
The problem with believers claiming that you cannot test God is the fact that, in the Bible, God sometimes does submit to tests. 1st Kings chapter 18 describes a competition between Elijah and the prophets of Baal over whose god would light a sacrificial alter. Elijah intentionally handicaps his own alter by having barrels of water poured over it, and God still comes through, demonstrating that sometimes God is just dandy with proving his existence to unbelievers.
The old church i used to go to...people got married or entered into a relationship only if they believed it was "God's will" what they would do is read the bible and read it and try to interpret a verse to determine what God's will was regarding their prayer...for example Bob would pray "Lord, should i get together with this woman Jane? Let me know if this is your will" next thing you know he opens up his Bible and ends up reading "And the two shall become one flesh" and then boom in his mind he is fully convinced that God has approved of him to court this woman or even to the degree that God has willed for them to be even married....in the old church i used to go to they used to call it a "Quiet Time"
I am a Christian and I think Matt has a point about prayer that many Christians should understand. That is, God is not a 'gimme machine.' Pray often fails because the one praying is all about self, not the things of God. Remember, prayer is simply talking to God - or more specifically, a dialogue with God. Conversely, I do not think that God often provides parking spaces, and 99% of the time, the cancer that was healed would would have been healed with or without prayer. Medicine has come a long way.
Yet, what Matt misses is the transformed lives through prayer. I know the Lord. We are great friends. Far from God granting me this or that, it seems the opposite, as I have learned perfect contentment in life (not a typo: perfect happiness). Atheists really miss the mark, neglecting their own spirit.
The entire human race is spiritually dead; that is why it is not safe to walk in some areas of town at night. Let that be a warning that hell is a continuation of human depravity. Hell is torment and it lasts forever. Yet, Christ died on a Cross so that we may know Him. Jesus Christ is the light of the world.
I have been dealing with chronic health issues for 10 years.
I prayed for 5-6 of those years before wondering if all this was bullshit and then became an atheist after doing research.
When I bring up this verse to my christian mother she yells, "God is not going to give you a Lamborghini!
I said that I was not asking for something selfish but for something I already had. The terrible response she made confirmed to me that apologetics is BS and that she has to make up crap to prop up her crappy religion.
Prayed for over 30 years. Nothing
Manifestate for 3 years 24-7. Nothing
🤷♂️
Helping people gaining knowledge. They turn against me.
Here i am all alone without family or friends.
Halleluja.
The verse about "whatever you loose on Earth, loosed in Heaven, bound on Earth, bound in Heaven" was a favourite among the "Spiritual Warfare" crowd in the 80s. People used it to construct an idea that we had a role in commanding spiritual beings etc. Very dodgy and not orthodox doctrine.
Also if I get a job it is called an answer to prayer (even if low paid and unsuitable) and if I don't get a job I'm told that's because it was not the right one for God's will for me. If I loose a job I'm told it is because God has something better waiting for me.
Okay I'm not an Atheist but the way prayer is dealt with by my friends is quite annoying to me at times.
Loose and lose are not the same thing.
It's funny, I remember being 11 or 12 back in my old youth group. I has asked my youth minister "Hey, if god knows everything that's going to happen and he won't deviate from his plan, then why do we bother praying for things?". His answer was: "Well, I don't have the answer, but why don't you pray and ask god why?".
Well, at least he tried...
Actually Matt, I see one point in which you are wrong on this one. As a D&D player, I find that dice rolls are FAR more effective than prayer.
It seems to me that John 15:7 is not applicable to the efficacy of prayer issue today. The context starting around chapter 13 seems to be that of Jesus addressing his soon to be apostles and 1st century disciples as opposed all believes of all time.
Even muslims and Atheists receive miracles, no matter who you are. But when it fails, Christians will say God is all knowing and acting in mysterious ways, so why pray then?
If prayer worked we wouldn’t need surgery or medicine!
The problem with trying to "prove" prayer is that if it fails, the believer will just say that "you cannot test god". For me the best comeback is the "why doesn't god heal amputees?". God will make cancers completely disappear, but will not give a man a new leg. They just try to tiptoe around the issue saying that "god gave the intelligence to human kind to make prosthetics", but it makes no sense. My brother when faced with theses problems of petitionary prayer used to say: "Oh no prayer mustn't be to ask for things, it must be for you to have a relationship with god". As if talking to yourself is having a relationship. Then again he probably asks things in prayer, but denies it when the atheist points the finger at it.
Your brother is using a classical dodge. In the Bible, it clearly says that petitionary prayer is a thing. I bet your brother (like most others who use his defense) prays for things to happen.
Prayer: The failed hypothesis
whywontgodhealamputees.com/
If God made humans intelligent, then why are there religious people?
The fact that humans exist is evidence against God's existence.
Subbed. Luv ya man.
I never get what i ask for. Never. Only knowledge. Nothing else. These knowledge is killing me. I know the thruth about the world. It's terrible.
I know how you feel. All of this is new to me. There is no God or any other higher power.
Good video, but why did you film it in the outhouse? :p
thank you for your wisdom sir
Have you read about Praying Hyde or George Muller? Worth considering.
If multiverse theory is true and there are infinite timelines, than everything you pray for is granted, just not in the dimension you live in. Check and mate.
you tha man Matt!
I'm kinda in the middle of transition to being Atheist and that moment months ago when it hit me that god never existed and never listens to anyone's prayers was scary...i had the feeling of despair and eternal loneliness with no chance of being conscious some way after death. I'm getting over that feeling developing a new stable way of observing our universe but it still kinda hurts to know there is only 1 form experiencing consciousness and its the one were living right now, this reality and the short 80-100 year life span we come with is the only form of life we will ever experience.
If prayer worked we would all live in paradise.
And that's the goal.
Prayer is an act to move toward communion with God.
I just sit and think sometimes to get answers on how to approach certain situations and I get them because I don't pray to a god. I ask myself these questions and sometimes it just helps to close my eyes and wander off with an initial: how do I do this, or why am I feeling this or experiencing this. No one else has the answers. It's my life and my path and my past and my brain and it's my brain that knows what the next step should be and what I hold most dear and what I want. It's how I found my purposes and passions; my friends, my music and learning as much as possible about the universe and everything in it and sharing that with others.
A reason I have heard is that "God's timing is perfect, so because he hasn't answered you yet means that it's not time to answer" and also "God will answer your prayers in an unexpected way than what you might think the answer is supposed to be" . And also that if you for instance pray to save a life , if he doesn't save that life it's ok because that person will have eternal life in heaven, so technically they won't be"forever dead." any thoughts on these Matt?
So is it of any effort... I guess.. or idk.. to pray for someone to be protected? Or to get better?...
I mean I've prayed for people not to die.. and they still die.
Prayer harks back to the animist origins of religion and our desire to affect things seemingly beyond our control. It makes no sense if there is already a ‘divine plan’ or even absent a sacrifice to buy the favour of a god … but it must’ve been a hard habit to break. So in Christianity now it’s kind of mixed into the general hodge-podge of ‘worship’, which must help disguise it but also scratch that animist itch.
I'm a christian, but I must say that the lack of answer to prayer is very disconcerting.
God's self imposed limitations are wreaking havoc with his cherished creation - us, as we watch the promises of God fly in our faces as he refuses to get involved in our lives and the lives of people and animals that are suffering. When I see some of the horrific suffering going on in the world, I get very angry with him and say, How the f...... k can you call yourself a God of love and you can allow that to happen? It's all very sad.
But itz true, you can pray about almost anything, and nothing will happen - again , his self imposed limitations where he cannot /will not intervene in the affairs of this world.
And then we have the thousands of Christians who have committed suicide, yet the Bible says that he will always provide a way out of a difficult situation.
Really?
Tell that to all the people who've jumped off bridges, drunk poison or gassed themselves - where was the way out?
And then we have that intolerable place called HELL.
Hell us a place where no atrocity ever committed by mankind comes anywhere close to the horrors of hell. Even if you multiplied every atrocity by 400 billion, it still doesn't come close, because it never ends. How can you call yourself a God of love and you can throw 90% of your cherished creation, us, into a Lake of Fire? - FOREVER!!!???
So in our understanding, we call someone that rules through fear, a tyrant.
I rest my case.
BUT, because he has threatened us with hell fire, I'm too scared to leave Christianity - and I'm extremely resentful of it.
I always say: You can't say love and hell in the same sentence - it's a total contradiction.
It's all very worrying and I can fully understand the comments here. If God cared/loved us, he would something about it.
I utterely hate my life with a passion and I beg him for a way out of this hell on earth, yet nothing happens, and Christians keep sending me crap like - its not God's timing, or, it's not in his will/ or all in his time / or he will never leave us /or he's right there when we feel that he's not etc et bloody cetera.
Sick of it.
He is guilty of some of the biggest contradictions and hypocracy of all time - what he tells *us* to do compared to what *he* actually does.
It's all nauseatingly frustrating.
Delving too deeply into what the New Testament says about prayer is problematic. The reason I say this is due to the problem of interpreting to whom the contexts of the verses in John, Matthew, etc applies to.
That part that says pray and believe you already have it is used by law of attraction people and "Abraham" Hicks who has a HUGE following!