Was Moses Real? | Exodus and the Jewish Law with Dr. Bart Ehrman
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 พ.ย. 2022
- I am joined today by the wonderful Dr Bart Ehrman to talk about the books of Moses. Are the ten commandments still relevant today? Did God really order the destruction of every Canaanite man, woman and child? Was Moses a real historical figure?
Sign up to Bart's new lecture series: Finding Moses - What Scholars Know About The Exodus and The Jewish Law to learn more!
My affiliate link: emmathorne--ehrman.thrivecart...
If you register before the 12th and 13th, you can take part in the live recording and live Q&A session. Either way you get lifetime access to all 8 lectures, Q&A's and bonus materials. Bart's courses are always so fascinating, I cannot recommend them enough for anyone with an interest in biblical scholarship! Nothing helps you face down fundamentalism like knowing the bible.
Previous videos: The Unknown Gospels: • The Unknown Gospels | ...
Genesis: • History, Myth and Lege...
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Hello Lovely People! If you enjoy this conversation and are interested in learning more, do sign up to Bart's new lecture series: Finding Moses - What Scholars Know About The Exodus and The Jewish Law to learn more!
Using my affiliate link helps me out as a creator (: emmathorne--ehrman.thrivecart.com/finding-moses/
If you register before the 12th and 13th, you can take part in the live recording and live Q&A session. Either way you get lifetime access to all 8 lectures, Q&A's and bonus materials. Bart's courses are always so fascinating, I cannot recommend them enough for anyone with an interest in biblical scholarship! Nothing helps you take on fundamentalism like knowing the bible ;)
Thanks, Emma! His material sure does look worth looking into.
Especially because an important part about looking into history (as a basis for how to live today), is to stay away from cherrypicking and find out what life/reality really was back "then", and why something was said etc..
That's why I am curious to what more Dr. Bart Ehrman has to say about these matters.
THAT WAS A CHUNKY BIG ONE, EMMA!!!!🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Irrespective of the character incongruities, the Exodus is impossible from the perspectives of logistics, physiology and basic math. To whit:
• How many male slaves were supposedly involved in the diaspora of Exodus according to the bible? (600,000)
• How many additional wives, children, elderly, other family plus animals were there? (Assuming 3 people, 2 animals - plug in whatever number)
• El Paso, Texas has a population of roughly 600,000 ( the biblical number of male slaves in Exodus) not including family and animals, how many square miles comprise its city limits? (259 square miles). Note: Unless the Jews dispersed across the entire desert, this is roughly the amount of space each encampment would require every time they temporarily settled in an area.
• If the above square miles were made into an exact square, how many miles would each length of the leg of the square extend? (16 miles per side)
• Without modern electronic communication, assuming an area roughly the size of El Paso, Texas, how would each member of the diaspora be informed of the complex logistics to begin their journey? (Question stands on its own)
• To empty a city the size of El Paso on foot with streets not much larger than paths, how much time in staging would it take for all slaves, family members and domestic animals to abandon the city? (Haven’t done this calculation yet, but logically it would take months and the Exodus as portrayed in the bible began in one day)
• Assume all slaves and families formed a single line to begin the Exodus (For now ignore the logistics of getting an entire city aligned)
• What is the distance from the alleged point of the Exodus disembarkation of Rameneses to a commonly suggested point by apologists - Nuweibaa Egypt on the Red Sea? (250 miles)
• What is the approximate distance from Neweibaa to the other side? (10.5 miles)
• Given a depth of 2500 feet at the center of the Red Sea at a point directly east from Nuweibaa, how many additional miles would be added to the crossing? (Assuming a rough arc, 1.5 miles)
• What speed are physically fit U.S. soldiers trained to march at? (3.4 mph)
• What is the designated width for a single lane on a U.S. Interstate highway? (12 ft per lane)
• What is the width of the oldest known paved road that was found in Egypt? (6 ft. - With most roads being no more than paths at the time)
• What is the average shoulder width of a male? (16”)
• What would the width of a row of 10 males be given 6 inches of separation of each shoulder between row members? (18 ft)
• Assuming a row of 10 across, separated by one yard per row, how many miles would a column of 600,000 male slaves extend? (45 miles, 60,000 rows)
• Assuming an average of 2 additional members in the families of each male slave, how much additional length would be added to the diaspora column? (136 miles, 120,000 rows)
• Assuming two domestic animals per household that would fit into the 10 row across scenario, how much additional length would be added to the column? (91 miles)
• With slaves, families, excluding animals, what would the approximate length of the Exodus be? (270 miles, 180,000 rows)
• At the marching rate of a U.S. soldier, without sleep, rest periods, no narrowing or barriers on such a trail and no stops for meals, how long would it take for the first row to reach the Nuweibaa beach on the Red Sea? (850 hours, 35 days)
• The last row back row at 180,000 back? (drop the animals) (136 miles [families] + 45 [male slaves] + 250 miles (distance to Red Sea Crossing =127 days)
• What effect would mud have on marching speed from a recently parted sea on a column of 60,000 rows assuming no other physical barriers? Of course the bible increduously claims the crossing to be dry.
• Assuming no barriers or muddy conditions at the Red Sea crossing, how long would it take for the first row to cross the narrowest point of the Red Sea? (12 miles/3.4 = 3.5 hours)
• The last row? (270 miles plus 12 miles to cross = 292) (292/3.4 = 85 hours or 3.6 days)
• If, as the bible indicates, the Egyptian chariots caught up to the Jews at the Red Sea and the Red Sea was only parted by the alleged Moses after seeing the Egyptian chariots, how long would the Egyptians then have to miraculously wait for the last row of Jews to begin crossing the Red Sea so that the "lord" could drown them? ( A minimum of 3.6 days)
• What would be the time necessary for Moses to restage the Jews so they could cross the Red Sea with optimum speed? (Again, I am not sure of the calculations, but this alone would take weeks to months)
@@douglasrasmussen480 why would you assume they were packed into such narrow rows of 10 persons wide??? Even if your reasoning was they were all following one man (Moses), that doesnt require every person be directly behind him to follow. Even a group several thousand wide would only need to stick with the group to follow a single person in front leading that group.
As far as historical evidence of the Exodus outside the Torah, its true that no Eqyptian record collaberates the story as it is told in the Torah. However, there is a REALLY GOOD REASON why.
First, to say there is no evidence of the Hebrews that later inhabited Israel were beforehand slaves in Eqypt and that there was no exodus of people leaving Eqypt is false. Although the complete details are not there, Eqyptians did record a time in their history that speaks of a time of great turmoil/confusion and a massive sudden loss of their (slave) laborer force as being in Eqypt one moment and in the next moment they were gone. They also recorded at this time, the Pharoah simply disappeared. From the Eqyptians perspective, the Pharoah is going to be forced to return these missing slaves who ran off at some point given how critically important they were to the Eqyptians economy but this Pharaoh is never heard from again. A reason for this is provided in the Torah, the Pharaoh and everyone with him also drowned in the Red Sea while trying to track down and return their slaves back to Eqypt. That seems like a reasonable explanation of why the Pharoah never returned to Eqypt, death would likely be the only reason not to return to place where he would of had god-like power. Matter of Fact the ONLY people who could of witnessed everything that happened in the desert and recorded it were the Hebrews. The Eqyptians would of had NO IDEA what happened, which is kinda how they reported the event: Confused and why there is very little to collaborate the story of the Exodus in Eqypt record.
Again how would the Eqyptians have known what happened to their slaves and the Pharoah who drownded trying to retrieve them??? There was no Eqyptian alive to report back to Eqypt and tell them what happened and according to the Eqyptians; their Pharoah simply vanished (dead or not). The Torah simply fills in the blanks of Eqyptian history which could have only been done so throught the persepctive of the Hebrews. So to conclude that because the Eqyptians didn't record the Exodus as it was reported in the Torah, therefor a myth is quite the leap of denial.
Nothing against the experience of Bart, but for someone with such a wealth of knowledge he seems incredibly confused. Especially concluding Moses as a character doesn't make sense because it's an Eqyptian name. WHAT???? The Torah at no point attempts to hide this fact. In fact, Moses name has NOTHING to do with his ethnicity. If Bart is unclear of Moses' ADOPTED NAME, he needs to go back and read the story of Moses again. As a reported expert, this misunderstanding is shameful as every single person of the Abrahamic faith know Moses was found as a baby drifting on the Nile river by the Pharoahs Daughter. She names him a Moses but KNOWS he is one of the Hebrews. Eqyptian, huh BART??
@@ananigma - You are apparently unaware of basic topography, logistics, and cumulative circumstances. The roads of Egypt were no more than paths around 6 feet across. Although the biblical account refers to desert, the topography travelled was covered in massive dunes and depressions that would inhibit wide rows. 10 across is simply an example, but does even stretch the available paths the Jews would travel. It is incredulous how you ignore that the Jews when they saw the Roman chariots while at the shore of the Red Sea panicked but Moses assured them god would intervene. The narrowest and most shallow point of the Red Sea is 10 miles across but to marshal an aggregation of people roughly 70% the population of Chicago would be logistically impossible to mobilize in the face of imminent attack. If the Jews spread out to double, triple, 100 times the sea floor changes dramatically with great depths, coral cliffs and much wider distance across. It strains credulity to assume the Egyptian soldiers would wait the days required to marshall such a large population to cross the Red Sea. You present the typical apologist insertions of coulda's and assumptions that are wholly unbacked in biblical accounting.
No joke when I say that scholars like Dr. Ehrman have taught me far more about the Bible and Christian history in the last few years than any preacher ever did during my entire churchgoing childhood
Heck, you'll learn more just by READING the Bible without the preacher's commentary.
Amen
Thats because u never read Bible
@@amaledward2147 yes I have. Don't make assumptions about people you do not know
Allowing another mans interpretations isnt learning, its following.
I was always dubious of the Exodus story in the Bible, but Prince of Egypt will always be in my heart.
it's mythology, the story of the founding of a people, so it's valuable for that without it being literally true; Prince of Egypt is an absolute banger of a movie
I was once told by an American religious type that the restriction on garments of mixed cloth didn't apply to poly-cottons because polyester was a modern invention. He didn't like it when I suggested that by the same logic, the second amendment only refers to muskets and flintlock pistols.
To be fair those are both bad arguments, but so is using the American constitution as a source of authority.
To be fair, he was absolutely right. Not only does it not prohibit, polycotton, cotton (or polyester for that matter) is not even involved. It only applies to wool and flax, per the text of Deuteronomy 22:11. That is the way it is observed in orthodox Judaism today, and it does not present much of an issue.
Not a fundamentalist, just in favor of accuracy.
@@ardeneberly4450 it’s actually mentioned twice, only in one place is it specific that it is wool and linen, the other place it simply says “neither shall there come upon thee a garment of two kinds of stuff mingled together.”
@@ardeneberly4450 "Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together."
I read that as using linen and wool as an example of a "diverse sort" cloth.
That's an oversight as well on your part to assume his stance on what he believes. "American religious type" can mean one of 3,000 different religions that America holds, many believing in the Torah without being Abrahamic oddly enough. If you're referring to him being a Christian, than you need to research what the new covenant is and the Christian understanding of following commandments and how that relates to Israelite exclusive Law. If he's Jewish, then that entirely depends on what kind he is whether he keeps tradition or not. Even then, Ultra-Orthodoxy have to consolidate with the degrading of tradition. There are obviously more Abrahamic beliefs that hold the Mitzvah to such high standard but you really need to do research before embarrassing yourself on the Internet with such an uneducated and pompous statement to make yourself sound intelligent when in fact, you are still ignorant about the world's largest faiths.
Odd thing to post about, but thanks for not using the auto-generated closed captioning. Some channels rely on those and they can be weird to follow. Being able to read your proper captioning is very helpful. Thank you!
I'm very grateful for all the support that allows me to get proper captions done :3
@@EmmaThorneVideos Keep up the awesome work! Your content is some of my favorite!
As someone who also uses captions on everything, the auto generated ones are terrible...if sometimes funny. The computer generated ones have gotten much better, but the manually entered ones are able to capture tones and inflections that can be missing. It's always nice to see someone succeed on TH-cam and pay someone for proper captions!
@@EmmaThorneVideos "I'm very grateful for all the support that allows me to get proper captions done :3"
i'd like to see more captions.
like in comics.
a box above your head: "Emmae stared wistfully as she drank a giant mug of steaming coffee."
or, "[the puppet] shook his head fearfully. The last thing he wanted was to visit a creationist museum and be called an abomination because he was felt."
didn't you wear a superhero costume once? i can imagine a whole spinoff comic....
@@vforwombat9915 never thought of mood captions - "Emma boggles silently at the regressive's argument" etc
Bart is always a pleasure to see on this channel! His happy demeanor is contagious
Ditto!
His knowledge is a pleasure, but his demeanor is beyond any level he has earlier shown. It is actually ridiculously unscientific.
@@PjotrII what about New Testament scholarship is supposed to be scientific?
@@luisb8394 I don't understand your " insinuation here"... of course NT scholarship should be scientific.
But can we get a moment of silence for the livestock Our Lord hated on so bad 😕
My favorite part of the Ten Commandments is how God committed genocide several times because people were bad, and *then* gave us the rules.
@Putin Runs the GOP Nah. God and Satan are pretty much the Duke brothers from _Trading Places._
Oh I thought that the best thing was after God gives the 5th Commandment he orders a pogrom .... And doesn't bat an eyelid
@Putin Runs the GOP That was a typo; an honest mistake missed in the translations. It actually said accused instead of accuser :p
I mean, Satan is constantly being accused of lying and doing magic and shape shifting when he's just wondering about and telling people the truth while god is lying, doing magic, and shapeshifts in all kinds of weird scheiße.
If Satan is actually the bad guy, god is satan and he is the author of confusion and bigotry, encouraging and requiring people to follow him based on nothing but logical fallacies and thinking errors and encouraging and requiring people to train themselves in excusing everything and anything by those fallacies and thinking errors.
It's abusive and a perfect excuse to do literally anything for your own short term personal gain by hiding behind the perfect narcissist.
It's a pathetically simple strategy to accuse "the enemy" of doing things you yourself do and then have stupid morons excuse everything you do by saying you wouldn't do those bad things because you just pointed it out in "the enemy".
They say ignorance is bliss. I feel it's pitiful in how pathetic and harmful it is to all the billions of victims, many of whom still worship their abusers and look up to the enablers. If Satan is considered a separate character and not just another alter ego of this "god", I have more respect for it than I have for any real person bowing down to this pathetic narcissistic god, who - by the way - does nothing in the entire book that doesn't serve worship for himself, just to provide some perfect proof for his perfect narcissism. Hail Satan!
Such interesting topic! Thanks so much for covering it!
As an Israeli who's considered Jewish (though I'm an atheist), we're brought up learning all these stories as some absolute truths, and it took me years to start learning it more thoroughly and understand how farfetched they are from reality.
I absolutely love when you have Bart on here.
Just one note, according to the book, Moses' name was given to him by the Pharaoh's daughter who rescued him and adopted him. So having an Egyptian name does make sense. Also, there's an Hebrew explanation to the name in the story, she called him that because she pulled him out of the water. (It makes sense in Hebrew because "Moses" and "I pulled him" are from the same word family in Hebrew. Why would she speak Hebrew though? No clue)
Congrats on ur freedom bro ❤💪💪💪
I was looking for a comment about the name thing...I wonder if he meant that it's odd for the Isrealites to decide to give this figure an Egyptian name (even if they gave a reason) considering he was the most important figure in their culture? Not sure, but you bring up another great point in favor of a mythical Moses...why WOULD the Pharoah's daughter name him based on a phrase in Hebrew? It doesn't sound realistic, but sure works for the storytelling.
@@armyoftinymoas great point. It feels like it shows the lineage of the story, not that it is likely truth.
Is it possible that Hebrew was the lingua franca of the Egyptian rulers at the time.
The only reason I can make up is meta-wise and an author's choice to make the protagonist more relatable to the audience, who are purely Hebrews. Many figures in the bible tend to go back to Egypt, like Abraham and Joseph. Only on those stories, Egypt is more neutral but still a recurring element because of their geographic location. Moses' story is where Egypt becomes a full-on antagonist.
I clicked on this video the moment I saw Dr. Ehrman was being interviewed. You two do great collaborative videos. Always interesting and fun.
Great stuff Emma. I like listening to Bart he seems very enthusiastic
One question about the Exodus I've heard asked is, how did they manage to take so long and get so lost on such a short journey? A short trip down the coast and they'd have been there in a couple of weeks walking. The ones at the front would arrive before the ones at the back had left Egypt.
They were god's chosen people! They had to suffer!
You know what... just for asking that question I'm going to bury your city in a pile of pheasants six kilometers high.
The answer is simple.
[EXODUS 13]
And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that
God led them not through the way of the *land of the Philistines*
although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people
repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt:
*The Philistines don't show up until 1177BCE. BUT Moses took a 40 year detour*
_"how did they manage to take so long and get so lost on such a short journey?"_
Being a man, Moses refused to stop and ask directions.
And of course, the place they fled to from Egypt - you know who ruled it?
... *Egypt.* Back in those days, that area was ruled by Egypt. There's a lot of archeological evidence, plus lots of records. (That had probably changed by the time the stories were written down.)
... and there seems to be significant evidence that the Israelites were fellow Canaanites.
@@KaiHenningsen Do you mean this evidence?
Referring to the hills of Canaan
Dr William Dever: "We know today, from archeological investigation, that there were more than 300 early villages of the 13th and 12th century in the area. I call these "proto-Israelite villages".
*This has been verified by archeologists*
i.e. Mazur, Na'aman, Finkelstein, Faust and Dever
Dr William Dever, an archaeologist normally associated with the more conservative end of Syro-Palestinian archaeology, has labeled the question of the historicity of Exodus “dead”.
Every time I see Dr Bart Ehrman I get excited and there’s always something new to write down! I do love seeing the breakdown of Abrahamic mythology so eloquently.
Bart knows a lot about the bible but he totally butchers it and in all honesty he sounds and acts like an idiot
This video is an excellent preview for the upcoming course. I've been wanting to get Dr. Bart Ehrman's take on the Exodus for years. Though raised Roman Catholic, I came to Fundamentalist Christianity at age 17 in the late 1970s. Don't ask me why! 😁 I had been fan of Science Fiction, an amateur astronomy, and a history buff previously. Later in life, at age 39, many of the things Dr. Ehrman discusses about Jesus Christ and the New Testament led me to become a 12er Shi'ite Muslim in the classic mode ... anti-Imperialist, not much interest in political or military power, defensive warfare only with limits, and no compulsion in religion. I never was talked out of my belief in one gracious, merciful, just and loving God. However, while I think there was a historical figure that became the the Moses of the Bible, I can't buy the supposed historical precision of the Bible. I believe the first five books contain some of the teachings of the historical figure Moses. But, there is a lot of added material as well.
Personally, my outlook is very Libertarian as far as personal freedoms are concerned. However, as long as the government doesn't get to big, I support social programs to help the needy and to improve their position.
Not only Jews and Christians but Muslims ought to consider Dr. Ehrman's scholarly work. Most of the nonsense in Islam comes from later traditions and imperialist takes on the Quran. The Quran itself says some passages should not be taken literally. That's why I think that Christians and others ought to learn about what the Bible really is. I believe there was a historical Moses, a historical Jesus, and a historical Muhammad. However, I don't think any of them would be happy with the state of the Abrahamic faiths today.
Have a happy holiday season. I am subscribed to your channel.
I was taught that the name Moses (Moshe) came from the Hebrew phrase “min ha mayim mishiseehoo “ (from the water I drew him). These are Hebrew words (which, oddly were spoken by the person from the kingdom of Pharaoh,) so this was a Hebrew phrase spoken by an Egyptian. But the name Moses has a Hebrew origin
Tutmoses = Tut + Moses . The name is Egyptian, not Hebrew. I think it means “dedicated to.”
Says your interpretation.
Yay Dr Bart is back! And on my favourite book of the Bible. Hallelujah 👏 👏 👏
Great discussion, thank you both.
Your videos are the only thing keeping me sane currently. Thank you
You're gonna get through it!!!! It's jarring to start but you're not wrong for asking questions!!!!! The gospels themselves don't agree on a lot, thank u for listening 2 ur heart
What a fun conversation.
Thank you.
Great. Bart is always a fun scholar to listen to. Not fusty and very humane. I've signed up for his 'Moses course' and looking forward to hearing his illuminating content. Flaxen Saxon
Can the course be downloaded?
@@pagandeva2000 Once you sign up you can access the course, and others, from the site, as required. It has been delayed presently due to Dr Erhman's personal issues. I wish him the best and a quick resolution of his problems. Flaxen Saxon.
Love Bart Ehrman. Thank you Emma I learned a lot today.
Keep up the great videos.
In parallel with the words now referred to as "ten commandments", we also find "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."
What a fantastic segment ❤
Not only is there ZERO evidence of the events in Exodus, at that time virtually all of the Levant was part of the Egyptian Empire. In fact, Egypt stretched all the way up to modern day Turkey.
Can we find evidence of human trafficking/smuggling out of Egypt into levant? Musa, snake men, were a real thing back then. They were smugglers. There are a couple of major instances of huge populations escaping at once and being led by “musa” the primary story contributor being smenkhare but there are other smuggling adventure stories injected.
I love Numbers 31, it's so uplifting and positive
It's so great that Dr Ehrman takes time for people like you & me.👍
Wow! Dr. Ehrman, Emma you have outdone yourself 🎉
Excited for this 👏👏
Has anybody mentioned yet how great your shirt is!? Yes, Dr Ehrman is fantastic as always too- thanks for sharing
I love you too! Enjoyed listening to this. Bart is without a doubt the premier heavy hitter when it comes to pulling away the fog of traditional Christian understanding and teaching of the bible. PS, did I happen to tell you, I love you too! (Only those who watched to the end will understand.)
Dear Emma, thank you for being such a lovely person! I enjoyed your interaction with Bart. I have been binge watching videos of his. On a personal note, I was born in Essex, 1948 and my family moved to Canada in 1953. I have often wondered over the years how my life may have turned out had I been brought up in the U.K. I find it fascinating seeing people who had that experience! Peace and Love and best wishes. btw I have sub'd :)
Loved this one so much!
Thanks, Bart! And you, Emma!
The 10 commandments in Exodus 20 were broken, and moses had to go back up the mountain and came down with the list in Exodus 34. The 10 commandments from Exodus 34 were next put in the Arc. However, in Deuteronomy the list in the arc is the list from Exodus 20. Even worse, God says in Ezekiel that he gave commands that were not good, and included child sacrifice, in order to horrify the Israelites. The command of child sacrifice is in the commandments listed in Exodus 34, which says that the first born of EVERY womb is to be a burnt sacrifice. Every passage that apologists use to say Yahweh doesn't like child sacrifice refer to him not liking child sacrifice to OTHER gods. Interestingly, the Christian apologists who are dead set that God doesn't like child sacrifice belong to a religion that is literally founded on a sacrifice of the firstborn.
well the apologist would say that this was all myth but weened the people off child sacrifice
The ones 11 through 15 were, and Moses had to think quickly to cover his tripping on the slope once on the way down and dropping them
- source, Mel Brooks in the documentary "History of the World, Part 2"
Or, was it 1 - 5 the ones that fell... or were they 6 - 10? We may never know.
Love this, Emma! You are a fantastic interviewer. Let me recommend Bart's podcasts with Megan Lewis as well.
Emma and Bart make a good podcast duo!😊
Thank you so much for sharing this priceless information with us. Greetings from Argentina.
Love these videos.
How can one learn more about the host, Emma?
Hi Emma. Thank you so much for hosting Doctor Ehrmann again. He was the most influential scholar on my way away from mysticism to real historical thinking.
Thank you Emma. And also thanks to Doctor Ehrmann. Keep on winning by being knowledgeable and mostly right. You won me over and so many more, just by saying stuff that makes more sense than what most mysticists say.
Thank you so much for sharing Dr. Ehrman's interview about the veracity / accuracy of the Moses / Exodus story. I am currently about 6 months into a planned year-long deconstruction process and Dr. Ehrman's expertise and insight have been quite informative. I've also watched him on numerous other "skeptic" channels discussing Genesis and the Gospels which was equally as informative.
I've learned so much from him. I love his laugh. Congrats on your deconversion. Welcome to the World of Rationality.
@@doneestoner9945 Thanks. In June I told my therapist about my deconstruction and mentioned how Dr. Ehrman as well as the TH-camrs "Genetically Modified Skeptic", "Ex-Fundie Diaries" and "Holy Koolaid" among many others are informing the process. I am the product of a Fundamentalist / Evangelical cult (Maranatha was actually accused of cult behavior in the '80s) and after about 25 years of being emotionally manipulated, I am now undergoing EMDR therapy (commonly used for PTSD / CPTSD treatment).
wtf is a "deconstruction process"?
How can you possibly plan the duration of your deconstruction process? Are you like "this date next year will be the day I stop believing in God"?
@@smurfystefDeconstruction is an analysis of ones world view and the values & beliefs upon which that world view is based. In my case that means taking a close look at "spirituality" and my beliefs about "God", the bible and "faith", separating the elements based upon psychological & emotional manipulation or "indoctrination" from those based upon evidence and logic. It differs from "conversion" in that it is not an instant in which one "flips a switch", repents, says a prayer and is "saved" by the fact that it is not instantaneous or a particular "moment in time", but rather a process worked out over time.
I hope the explanation clarifies it a bit. If not, check out Genetically Modified Skeptic's TH-cam page. He as some great videos discussing his own deconstruction process.
31 minutes of pure intellectual pleasure......Thank you Emma and Thank you Dr. Ehrman
This is pure nonsense and dribbling
Curious on how people don't consider Moses being more of a title than a name. Also the similarities of Moses and Anubis as to how they were both placed in the Nile River and pulled out or saved by a foster mother figure. Also Curious is on how the mythical version of Hercules went through very similar situations.........things that make you go hmmmm......
There’s also a lot of parallels between the Jesus story and and ancient mythology/religion.
@@gloriadell3416 same with the story of Adam and eve. Most all the stories are similar to one another.
The similarity of Moses' river story is almost exactly like Sargon of Akkad... who was around about 2300 BCE.
I don't understand, how come this comment is posted a day ago but this video is posted only a few hours ago?
@@justsomeguywithoutamustang6436 Perhaps she releases videos earlier for Patreons or channel members.
I love how excited he gets :D
I'm reading the bible rn and when he talked about the bible saying that men sleeping with men isn't moral etc, it reminded me of my thoughts when I read that part. It clearly stated who can sleep with whom, and if I remember correctly it even included animals. Some scholars say the "men can't lie with men" was a mistranslation and it actually means kids. I believe this, because why tf would they leave kids out of it? Giving a precise list of stuff that's off limits and not including kids would have clear implications, wouldn't it?
Edit: just realized that Dr. Bart Ehrman is the author of "Jesus, interrupted", which I started reading earlier this year. Cool little coincidence for me :)
"Some scholars say the "men can't lie with men" was a mistranslation and it actually means kids."
Those aren't scholars. Those are Biblical apologists. They're lying.
"I believe this, because why tf would they leave kids out of it?"
The honest answer is because back then people didn't care about people having sex with kids, beyond a daughter being property of the father. Hell, the God of the Bible rapes and impregnates an underage girl, and that's a key part of the mythology.
@@EBDavis111 yep, I know, but if I was a christian, I'd rather say "yeah, they absolutely meant children", than being cool with the consequences of the other translation. In theory. Reality is that most christians didn't really read the bible though.
The Bible either says all homosexuals should die or there is nothing wrong with it.
Jeremiah's new covenent or the many reasons not to believe Paul.
Great video.
Keep saying "love you". Is very
sweet and Inclusuve, and because it is spontaneous, it reflects well on you
Dr Ehrman: "Why did they call him Moses, an Egyptian name?"
The Bible: "He was adopted by an Egyptian princess who named him Moses."
Me:
Not quite. He asked *if Israelites were making up the story* why would they give their hero an Egyptian name.
@@dianadeejarvis7074
For the same reason any author doesn't give a character a name that fits where the author lives instead of where the character does?
Even Hollywood knew not to name the daughter of the pharaoh in Mummy 2 "Janet" just because she was played by Rachel Weiz!
@LeviticusStroud the point is if Moses is completely fictional -- not based on a real person at all -- they don't need the story about him being rescued as a baby & adopted by an Egyptian princess. They could have given their hero a better background.
@@dianadeejarvis7074
Huh?
Is that a serious opinion, or are you just trolling at this point?
Name a famous fictional protagonist who *doesn't* have a fairly complex backstory!
As for Moses, if not adopted - how else would he be fully educated and able to get access to talk to the pharaoh?
another good one
Talks like this are very interesting. And I appreciate having them to listen to and learn from.
Thanks Emma and Bart.
One nitpick at 15:10 : Did he forget the part where Moses was sent to the Pharaoh's wife on the river, and she gave him an Egyptian name because she was Egyptian?
Moses is hebrew for "to pull out or draw from wster" the pharaohs wife gave him a hebrew name linked to how he was found in the mtyh of moses.
@@jameswright... A similar word, 'Mosheh' is Hebrew for 'drawing out (of water)'. There is apparently some scholarly debate about whether 'Moses' was derived from Hebrew or Egyptian (which share a root language so a lot of words are similar anyway so it seems like a moot point.) But if Moses is an Egyptian name as Dr. Ehrman states, it would make sense in the context of him being found and raised by an Egyptian.
Maybe like the Exodus itself he dismisses that naming story as a fairy tale?
didn't expect Bart Ehrman on this channel...
this channel has come a long way
good job
Love You Emma 💗
I had always supposed that the instruction about garments made with two kinds of thread was because different materials would shrink differently and the clothes wouldn't hold their shapes, or might even come apart.
I think that’s because Jewish law was strongly opposed to any form of syncretism. The idea of mixing things was considered dangerous in a culture that was prone to mixing religions. Therefore, the Jewish priesthood forbade mixture of any kind just to hammer that point home to people.
Good point.
If we didn't have the Bible we would still know right and wrong and how to love.
Thanks very much!
Regarding the livestock contradiction: We were taught in my evangelical church that it's not a contradiction, the Egyptians obviously went and bought more livestock from surrounding nations.
This!!
That’s exactly what my church said
About the 10 commandants, Lisa ok for George Carlin his take down of the 10 commandments. He does it brilliantly
Thanks again
Thank you so much. Such informative content and strength in the Atheist community. Keep up the great work Emma ;)
Strength? I rest my case!
love your shirt!!!!
I honour the Sabbath day by not doing anything on Saturday, or Sunday. Just to be on the safe side.
Wow, this was good 👍🏾
I hope Emma can forgive me for this but one of the most interesting takes on the biblical story is Dark matters power corrupts animated series.
Dr. Ehrman seems to have a controversial reputation but from everything I've read of his so far he seems like someone who just tries to look at things as logically and objectively as possible.
He’s an extremely uncontroversial scholar, except among fundamentalists, who unfortunately are embedded in some spheres of biblical academia
I really like Dr. Ehrman's sobriety when it comes to this. Of course the Bible isn't an inerrant source of truth, but it *was* written _very_ long ago and it wasn't like every single author was an evil cackling villain crafting every single word out of thin air to manipulate the masses. As with almost everything in life, the truth is somewhere in the middle.
I don’t think the (lack of) evidence paints a picture of the truth “being somewhere in the middle”.
@@scrumpymanjack Well, there *is* evidence for the existence of Jesus as a person, at least.
My point is that extreme positions are usually wrong ones; in this case, "everything in there is absolute gospel truth and there are no mistakes or manipulations" and "everything in there is absolute horseshit and nothing in there happened at all" are both wrong.
@@cobrasys I agree on the Jesus point. The Bible also mentions real places. But you need more than that to get you to “somewhere in the middle”.
This is a wonderful scholar.
IMHO, Ehrman is maybe the most influential secular historian of Christianity and has tremendous influence. The Four Horsemen and other atheist pundits are easy for the faithful to marginalize and ignore, but Dr. Ehrman speaks the language in a convincing manner. He keeps a foot in both worlds, and he forces the faithful to consider their religion.
"if you're a man, you shouldn't sleep with someone else's wife"
"if you are a wife, you shouldn't sleep with someone other than your husband"
Pretty significant difference between those two. So basically, if you're a man, it's OK to cheat as long as it's not with a married woman. As a woman, you cannot have sex with anyone else, not even in a consensual threeway or swinging or anything.
That is because a biblical marriage is one man, and as many wives and concubines as he can afford to keep.
Well, it is a book written by men for men. For example, it says that it is abominable for a m to sleep with a m but there is no mention of a f sleeping with an f.
And that is only one example. There are multiple lines that give clues which gender should read the Bible.
Unless your name is Mary, then God can impregnate you even though you are betrothed to a mortal.
@Putin Runs the GOP No, it's condoned by man, who uses 'god', to control everyone else.
You are missing it... Each sex had freedoms and restrictions under Jewish law when it came to avoidance of an adultery charge. A man could sleep with any woman OTHER than another man's wife or betrothed. While a single woman (unmarried and not yet betrothed) could sleep with literally ANY man.
I love Judaism because we (for the most part) don’t bullshit ourselves into saying or believing that the old testament is literally true word for word. And even so, we still believe there are countless wise lessons in there to appreciate.
Yeah, about the livestock, don't forget the Egyptian Army somehow rode after the Jewish people on dead horses that had been killed several times over at that point.
Your amazing, thank you for being you.
I first "met" Dr. Bart Ehrman on the Paulogia youtube channel. He's certainly interesting!
Emma with Dr Ehrman! Am I interesting?! How awesome is this.
It's affection; it's heart-warming, Goblin, do you.
I love Dr Bart and have copies of most of his books. I love his brilliance and humor. However I think Mel Brooks had it correct in History of the World Part 1........
You know what, Emma? WE LOVE YOU TOO. So now it’s out there.
She never says hi to me :( only to lovely people :p
I do enjoy being accused of being lovely though :) Just as I enjoy being lumped in with puppies and kittens by Aron Ra :D
My church brain immediately Started singing the "high upon mount siani he gave the rules we should live by as god gave out the shalts and thou shalt nots" damn how deep the indoctrination stitches in
On the name of "Moses" according to the Old Test./Torah he was *given* that name by the parents who *adopted* him. That explains his name, I believe.
The questions of which laws Christianity says to follow, and why, is something that I don't think gets enough attention.
So, since Moses is an Egyptian name, possibly (depending on how many people were involved in the writing and /or creation of the 5 books of Moses), maybe these writers had lived with an oral narrative that coalesced over hundreds of years until finally, while imprisoned in Babylon, they were able to be educated in writing enough to put together a full story. The name Moses would have been just a signature Egyptian name to separate him and lend credence to the stories beginning. I think all Semites were initially Egyptian. Some, much like most human populations do, congregated as a tribe,.... and at some point left Egypt... to find their own place... and the story grew from that into a reason why they left as a group.
I think the story of Joshua is a distant memory of the conquest of Canaan by the Sea People who became known as Philistines. The Israelite tribe of Dan was probably composed of Greek Danoi.
Barts AWESOME!!! 👍👏👏👏
I like this man , he is not only extremely well read but has a great sense of humour .he looks like he has lost weight, I hope he is in good health.
I'm not going to argue with Dr. Ehrman about Moses being an Egyptian name. But in Hebrew Moses had the name "Moshe" (מֹשֶׁה ) that comes from the Hebrew phrase (כִּי מִן הַמַּיִם מְשִׁיתִהוּ), meaning "because I pulled out of the water." The word מְשִׁיתִהוּ means to pull something out of the water, and as one can see the name מֹשֶׁה is constructed from the letters of מְשִׁיתִהוּ . Bottom line, the Hebrew Bible text has these words. This implies that "Batia" the daughter of Pharaoh was speaking Hebrew (because she named the baby that she pulled out of the water). And that is where the conflict may come about.
You know the part about the livestock, I remember the first time reading it I had to keep going back because I thought I misread it. Then the New Testament and how the different denominations go on about faith plus works or grace through faith. It says both. It’s a never ending debate because both sides have passages that back it up but both agree there’s no contradictions in scripture. 😐
Even if we were to assume that the Egyptians erased the Exodus story from their own records out of embarrassment, why would the Babylonians not report it? Or the Hittites, who as long-time rivals of the Egyptians would LOVE to record a major blow to Egyptian power?
it was recorded and has been here all along, just not brought to anyones attention..The Histories
By Tacitus
Written 109 A.C.E
Most writers, however, agree in stating that once a disease, which horribly disfigured the body, broke out over Egypt; that king Bocchoris, seeking a remedy, consulted the oracle of Hammon, and was bidden to cleanse his realm, and to convey into some foreign land this race detested by the gods. The people, who had been collected after diligent search, finding themselves left in a desert, sat for the most part in a stupor of grief, till one of the exiles, Moyses by name, warned them not to look for any relief from God or man, forsaken as they were of both, but to trust to themselves, taking for their heaven-sent leader that man who should first help them to be quit of their present misery. They agreed, and in utter ignorance began to advance at random. Nothing, however, distressed them so much as the scarcity of water, and they had sunk ready to perish in all directions over the plain, when a herd of wild asses was seen to retire from their pasture to a rock shaded by trees. Moyses followed them, and, guided by the appearance of a grassy spot, discovered an abundant spring of water. This furnished relief. After a continuous journey for six days, on the seventh they possessed themselves of a country, from which they expelled the inhabitants, and in which they founded a city and a temple.
Moyses, wishing to secure for the future his authority over the nation, gave them a novel form of worship, opposed to all that is practised by other men. Things sacred with us, with them have no sanctity, while they allow what with us is forbidden. In their holy place they have consecrated an image of the animal by whose guidance they found deliverance from their long and thirsty wanderings. They slay the ram, seemingly in derision of Hammon, and they sacrifice the ox, because the Egyptians worship it as Apis. They abstain from swine's flesh, in consideration of what they suffered when they were infected by the leprosy to which this animal is liable. By their frequent fasts they still bear witness to the long hunger of former days, and the Jewish bread, made without leaven, is retained as a memorial of their hurried seizure of corn. We are told that the rest of the seventh day was adopted, because this day brought with it a termination of their toils; after a while the charm of indolence beguilded them into giving up the seventh year also to inaction. But others say that it is an observance in honour of Saturn, either from the primitive elements of their faith having been transmitted from the Idaei, who are said to have shared the flight of that God, and to have founded the race, or from the circumstance that of the seven stars which rule the destinies of men Saturn moves in the highest orbit and with the mightiest power, and that many of the heavenly bodies complete their revolutions and courses in multiples of seven.
My question is since the Hebrews were slaves were they taught how to read and write? In the exodus I would imagine that only Moses could read and write since he was raised as an Egyptian who should have been literate. Why give any laws if the people/Hebrews couldn't read them, only Moses and therefore only he could verify what the words/commandments meant.
I would be Interested to hear his opinion of the Harris Papyrus. It describes a rebel called Su who paid mercenaries from Canaan by looting temples. He fought Pharaoh and lost, then they fled north. Dated to the Bronze Age collapse.
Yes we know it's interesting, that's why we're all here.
When's Dr. Carrier going to make an appearance?
I wonder, how could Israelites "escape from Egypt" going to Canaan from Goshen ? Canaan was under Egypt during 18th and 19th dynasties.(the purported period of Moses/Exodus). They just moved from one part of Egypt to another. Ramesses II even had massive troops garrisoned in Canaan for his Battle of Kadesh with Hittites.
The Israelites were the Canaanites. The oppression of which Exodus speaks is precisely based upon the Egyptian occupation of Canaan. The event that inspired the Exodus story was the Egyptian exodus from Canaan, not the other way around, when the Philistines began to raid Egyptian garrisons during the 11th Century BC and brought an end to the Middle Bronze Age.
@@ethanhocking8229 Yes. After the retreat of Egypt from Levant following bronze age collapse, the Canaanites living in hills moved to plains and occupied the desolate land . They embellished that story with escape from slavery and conquering of Jericho.
I saw the light, I saw the light, no more in darkness, no more in night,praise God I have Jesus!!! KJV
King James, his bishops, and the panel of translators would have had you imprisoned for the nonsense you believe. Why use KJV?
Hello lovely Emma.
Very interesting. Why is the eel bleeding, though?
I would love his perspective on how there are many similar stories in other religions, what those are, and where they actually come from. He has probably already spoken about this somewhere, but also I'd love to hear his take on the Council of Nicea.
Search "Indo-European sky father".
The Jewish understanding of the point of these three plagues on livestock is that, no matter what the Egyptians did to replace their livestock, it got killed off because of the Pharoah's stubbornness. After the death of all the livestock in the fifth plague, the Egyptians obtained cattle and goats from somewhere outside of Egypt (and I assume you know that Egypt was not the only country on earth at the time that possessed livestock). So after partial restocking, the new livestock that remained outside (because some Egyptians refused to listen to the warning) got killed off by the fire and hail. Then, we assume, there is another partial restocking from somewhere else, and the firstborn of the survivors, and of the new stock, dies in the plague of the firstborn
love you too
8:38 what period in time is he referring to? 13th century AC or does he refer to the time the Egyptians used? I have no knowledge of what the Egyptians used to indicated their years so I need to ask
Wow how'd you get Count Michael Károlyi? Impressive Emma
Where are these courses available?
I want to know how you get lost in a desert for 40 years, was walking north too hard for them to work out?
Symbolic language, 40 years represents the death of a generation
" Moses is one of the most charismatic leaders that the world has known, but he is not a religious man.
He is a lawgiver. But to be a law giver is one thing, and to be religious is totally different. He decides what is right, what is wrong for his people. But right and wrong are not eternal things. Something is right this moment, and the next moment it is not right. Something is right in one context, in another context it becomes just its opposite. Laws are dead. Once you have decided them, then they are fixed. They don't change with the context, with the situation, with the time. They cannot change, they are not living beings.
Moses guided his people out of slavery, gave them great hope for the future, inspired them, but he could not make them religious. Because he could not make them religious, he had to substitute religion with laws. Laws are a poor substitute for consciousness. But when consciousness is missing, there is nothing else to do except to give laws, and follow the laws.
Why could Moses not make his people religious? He himself was not a religious person. His encounter with God is nothing but an hallucination. God exists not, so those who have encountered God have encountered their own imagination. Wandering in the hot, burning, fiery desert for years; hungry, thirsty, his people dying, their hope dying - there seems to be no end to this search for the promised land.
He goes to the mountains to think, to contemplate, to pray to God. He must have been in a hopeless situation. Now the people were asking - and there was no answer - they were asking, "Where is the promised land? It seems you don't have any idea where it is. You uprooted us. Of course we were slaves, but at least we were surviving. Now we are dying."
People choose slavery for the simple reason that if the alternative is death, then it is better to be a slave. At least you are alive and there is a possibility someday you may get out of the slavery. But when you are dead, the possibility disappears. So it is not wrong to choose slavery when it is an alternative to death.
Moses brought these people out of slavery, giving them all kinds of dreams, and slowly those dreams started turning into desert dust. Days went by, months went by, years went by, and people were dying as they had never seen people dying. Forty years he was wandering in the desert of the Middle East.
In forty years, out of every four people, three had died. Three quarters of the original people were no longer there; and those who remained, you could not call them alive either. These forty years had been such a suffering that it would have been a lot better if they had died. They were skeletons.
Naturally, Moses was in a tremendous anguish, a great turmoil. He had not thought that this was going to happen. He was not deceiving his people; he was very sincere, his intention was good.
There was no way to get these people out of Egyptian slavery unless they were given a great hope that pulled them out of slavery.
But this happens to all great leaders: when they succeed, then comes the moment of their failure.
He went into the mountains just to be out of the crowd, because they were continuously torturing him, asking him, "Where is the promised land? We don't see any promised land. Days pass, we don't come across an oasis. People are dying of thirst, and whenever we come across an oasis, it is not easy to get food either"... because they were all poor people, they had no money, they were slaves. They were not paid, and whatsoever they had brought... small things. That caravan of Moses is worth remembering. What had people carried with them? Somebody was bringing his donkey, somebody was bringing a cart, somebody was carrying two earthen pots, a few clothes.... There was nothing valuable. They had nothing. And on the way they sold whatsoever they had brought with them - these small things they sold for bread.
Moses must have been in terrible pain. Nobody has thought about it. I have never come across a Jewish book pondering over the situation of Moses. He went into the mountains, not to meditate.
That is a great luxury - Moses could not afford it - and that was not the time to meditate. He had gone just to avoid this crowd, and sit for a time to think out a plan. Something had to be done, otherwise he would be responsible for this whole race dying. And he had promised them....
And remember always, this is how the human mind works: when you start promising, you forget that there is a limit, don't exaggerate. Mind is very easily able to exaggerate. It enjoys exaggerating.
It magnifies things both ways. Just a little pain and it makes so much fuss about it. Just a little suffering and it becomes the greatest suffering in the world. Just a little pleasure and you are on top of the whole world, as if nobody else knows what pleasure is. You fall in love with a woman and you think, "Never before has such a love happened, and never again is it going to happen.
This is unique." This is happening everywhere, and everybody is thinking it: "This is unique!" Mind exaggerates everything, magnifies - it is a magnifier - and you believe it.
Moses' people were really in trouble. It was not a question of magnifying. And there was a limit to giving them consolation: "Wait just a little more - we are coming closer, coming closer...." It seemed as if they were going farther and farther away; there seemed to be no signs of coming closer.
In this state of anguish, in the burning hot desert, on the mountain - even hotter, because a desert mountain has no trees, no greenery - Moses hallucinates. In such a state of mind anybody can hallucinate. He starts talking to God. His human mind finds no answer. This is a state of hallucination: with open eyes he is seeing a dream. And he believes that God has given him advice, ten commandments: "These are the ten rules. Go to your people and give these ten commandments. If they follow these ten commandments everything will be all right." His hallucination is not a religious experience. There is no God in the first place. Even if there is, he does not speak Hebrew. How did you start thinking that God is a Jew? If there is a God and he comes to know that you call him a Jew, do you think he will be happy? There is no God at all, so there is no problem.
It is not Moses alone who is hallucinating; other religious leaders - of course, so-called religious leaders - have done the same. He comes with great authority and tells his people, "God has given these ten commandments. If you live accordingly, fulfilling God's desire, then only are you going to find the promised land. But first you have to be capable of it, worthy of it."
Now, this is a good strategy. Neither can those poor people be worthy of fulfilling all those ten commandments, nor can they ask again, "Where is the promised land?" I don't think that he was being a politician, but who knows - it is good political strategy to give people a certain idea: "You fulfill it; if you don't fulfill it, then you are responsible, then you cannot blame me. I had told you before that these ten commandments have to be fulfilled."
And those ten commandments cannot be fulfilled by any natural human being.
The very structure is such that you will find it going against your natural instincts, your biology, your physiology, your psychology. So rather than blaming the leader, you will start feeling guilty, that it is because of you the promised land is not being reached.
I do not think that Moses was at all a religious man. He was a great revolutionary, and certainly a charismatic leader, not of an ordinary caliber, superb. It is not easy to keep people wandering in the desert for forty years and still keep their hope alive. This was a great strategy, knowingly or unknowingly. My feeling is that it was unknowingly. He certainly had the feeling that God had spoken to him, that he had seen God, that these ten commandments were from him. And by giving these commandments to the Jews, God had proved again that Jews are the chosen people of God."
Moses did not exist, nor any of the events you mentioned just Mythologies stolen from other older mythologies. Can you point on the map where is Mount Sinai? Where there is zero archaeological evidence of any of those events, because they did not take place.
The time that elapsed from when the Exodus was supposed to have happened, until the time when it was actually written down was more than 500 years. Like the legends of King Arthur, of which there is also no historical evidence, Moses and the Exodus is a mythic tale. As for numbers, we know that in the past thousands, or hundreds of thousands was just a literary device used by authors to convey importance of an event, not really being used like we use numbers today.