Science and Spirituality Unite | Transcendent Naturalism #14 with Henriques, Alderman, and Layman
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ค. 2024
- Gregg Henriques is a professor at James Madison University, author of "A New Unified Theory of Psychology," and a leader in the Unified Psychotherapy Movement, with over 20 years of experience in psychology and psychotherapy, specializing in adult psychopathology.
Pascal Layman is a philosopher based in Northern Ontario, known for his groundbreaking work on the metaphysics of adjacency, the coaxial stages model, and metaprogressive politics.
Bruce Alderman is an accomplished musician, visual artist, and deep meditation practitioner. He is the producer of The Integral Stage podcast and the organizer of the Blue Sky Leadership Program at the California Institute for Integral Studies.
Does the universe hold inherent mystery, or is our scientific understanding merely inadequate?
In this episode of The Cognitive Science Show, John Vervaeke and Gregg Henriques are joined by Layman Pascal and Bruce Alderman to reflect on the Transcendent Naturalism series and explore its potential for fostering collective transcendence. The discussion covers a range of topics, including the importance of ethical and relational dimensions in our understanding of the world, the role of art and meaning-making in a meta-modern context, and the layered ontology of nature. Join us to explore this fascinating approach to understanding how transcendent naturalism can shed light on our world and guide us toward a deeper sense of purpose.
Gain exclusive access to live Q&A sessions, early video releases, and more by supporting John's innovative work on Patreon! Join the community here: / johnvervaeke
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“IPS (Integral Post-Metaphysical Spirituality) wants to leave room for the interplay of transcendence and immanence, but without needing to posit an unthinkable outside to reality. It's in strong accord with transcendent naturalism in this regard." - Bruce Alderman [08:37]
"John's proposed simple move to arrive at an extended naturalism, getting science to more explicitly accept what it already presupposes, is genius. There's much more that could be said about that, but my simple response is bravo." - Bruce Alderman [08:49]
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0:00 - Introduction: Series Finale and Overview of Transcendent Naturalism Series
4:00 - Integral Post-Metaphysical Spirituality and its Flexible Nature
14:10 - Influential Theories and Thinkers: Integrating Cognitive Science, Philosophy, and Transcendence
24:20 - Flexible Metaphysics and the Layered Ontology of Transcendent Naturalism
32:50 - Theology, Art, and Literature: Navigating the AGI and Meaning Crisis
39:20 - Participatory Spiritual Practices and Metaphysical Rituals
45:20 - Strong Transcendence with Preeminent Imminence
53:40 - The Role of Art and Narrative in Transcendent Naturalism
57:00 - Cultivating a Transformative Curriculum: Reimagining Institutional Roles in Spiritual Growth
1:10:20 - Conclusion: Culminating Thoughts and Future Pathways
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If you're interested in learning more about transcendent naturalism, be sure to check out the Cognitive Science Show. • Towards a Metapsycholo...
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Thank you for watching!
Thanks so much to John, Greg, Bruce and Layman for a really enlightening dialogos
What a hopefull, inspiring and amplifing experimce to listen in on. And the point about narrative, art and artictic endouver have emergied and reawakened this one to continue to build a bridge between meaning and philosophy as an Enacted exploration of serious play whintin creative writing from a aphofatic flow of the cohenrence of flow. 🎉
Considering a more ...meaningful, truthful, and useful.... embrace of the ...historical, philosophical and sciento-technological.... narratives with an integrally greater conscience coming forth and going forward.
Thin strong vs thick strong orientation, and ritual. Thanks for the series!
WOW I understand John way more than I understand Greg!
Gregg's summary of transcendent naturalism, where 4 interrelated components at the broad level are I think:
1. a layered ontology which needs to be considered in relationship to
2. a conformist theory of knowledge, where there's a framing of our cognitive, epistemic apparatus to the layered ontology of Nature, to create a conformist structure
and here's where I'm confused, if the third is
3. the transjective, where the conformist structure needs to be understood as transjective, or
3. the reframing with the transjective into extended naturalism, and then that situated in
4. kairotic (? spelling) moment that affords a collective transcendence as collective meaning and awareness leap for the individual, all that bound up as number four.
my simplistic interpretation:
1. intelligibility of layered ontology assuages emotional need of collective, allowing a coupling arrangement of marriage where emotional need of one is answered by rationalization from the other, withdrawing that from the environment. The forming of groups then couples in groups which leads to
2. increased efficiency which produces a human mediated knowledge pool which is separated by media and coupled with care back to Nature, where the
3. transjective, where the knowledge is
4. shared with the non-human, where a triangle object of human marriage preserves binary coupling for context realizations, where this is lost in a regular couple marriage by one side's estrangement from intelligibility in the environment, since that possibility is removed by neo-business need for efficiency. That unanswered need of the other partner moving into the group, and that subsumed into the neo-political, which itself has lost the range of movement in the positive and negative freedom sets that each liberal and conservative group are supposed to contain while favoring one or the other, in context so people adjust to that as a collective response.
This triangle works by a) allowing complexity of binary couplings for relevance b) encouraging passing of knowledge from older to younger c) keeping things at the local level which is more efficient, and having more resources for more freedom of that kind to re-connect to meaning in the environment, as in Bildung.
One fix anyway, thanks again.
Anyone recomend episodes of after Socrates I watched all of awakening from the meaning crisis a couple times
yes indeed
Where can we find the whole Transcendent Naturalism series?
If I put a link here, YT will hide the comment. The full series is hosted on Gregg's UTOK channel, as its own playlist.
Thank you!
A story is what it feels like to be a system from the inside ( only place ther is ultimately)…brilliant
27:07 I've had this weird little thought bothering me lately where I consider whether I would rather be Ram Dass's Rick Rubin or Rick Rubin's Ram Dass that just came to mind here. Maybe that will mean something to somebody.
Here I think I'm thinking of Ram Dass as in the world but not of it vs Rick Rubin as of the world but not in it.
The bromance is lovely fellas but what happened to the "we are comprehensively prone to self-deception?" With all due respect to the sincerity of your efforts, like the vast majority of well educated people are you 'unwittingly' addicted to the feeling of the abstract being real, that underpins our communication biased consciousness?
That sense-of-knowing we all adapt to during our early-life behavioral adaptation to speaking our mother’s tongue and beginning the development of our rhetoric-is-reality, delusion of consciousness.
Does 'imminent' transcendence involve a move from the symbolic-cognition of knowing, to noticing the entwined truths and falsehoods inherent in every sight associated word you possibly imagine within the 'imaginal-realm' we commonly use the reality-labeling word 'mind' to imaginatively define?
Is an 'epiphany' creating way of feeling imminent transcendence, noticing 'how' you can name the objects clearly seen in the environment all four men occupy, with any 'other' descriptive words you possibly imagine without altering the 'reality' of the objects or what your 'eyes' are actually seeing?
Is this why the Ascension philosopher from Nazareth said "they seeing, see not, hearing, hear not, and neither do they understand?" And is this a timeless truth about the perceptual-pretense involved in creating the 'religio' (binding) sense of a consensus-reality and the conscious sense-of-certainty required to overcome our existential anxiety about the inherent uncertainty, involved in the reality of being-in-time?
I know two of the fellows well - Bruce and Layman. That said, this conversation feels way overly abstract; it was practically crying out to God for practical examples the listener might employ. I'm just not so sure that theology is in that much trouble; I look out and see a vibrant landscape of practice that - without a whole lot of overly self-conscious reimagining - has in a poly kind of way seeped into the lives of those who practice. In many ways, it's already being done by those on the ground. In any case, I wish this group had stuck to a teaching rule I like to use: For every abstract reflection, then name why it matters and what difference it would make. Tell it to me like I was five.
Yeah, I hear you, Mark. Have you watched the rest of the series up to this point? You'll see if you listen to the first 4 videos in that series that John lays out a several-hours-long case for why we need an 'extended naturalism,' why we need to admit a leveled ontology, why levels of knowing will accompany those levels of being, why we should adopt a 'conformity' epistemology (rather than a representational or correspondence one), why there is room for 'strong transcendence,' why we need to admit both bottom up and top down causation (emergence and emanation), why we need a transjective account that transcends subject-object dualism, why we need to be able to take 'the sacred' seriously again, and so on. He's explicitly mirroring certain neo-Platonic / Plotinusian models, which also influenced Ken's account, as well as some Eastern ones (like Zen), but he's providing some new scientific and philosophical grounds for a number of the pieces. It's a highly abstract and nuanced presentation that is delivered over 5 or 6 hours, all told.
And Bruce and Layman were asked to respond to that. It was a challenge to try to respond to all of it in the short time they had, so yeah, they had to choose between comprehensiveness & density, or a more accessible but also much thinner surface response.
amazing dialogue. raw, high octane stuff. i wonder how this information gets digested at different scales of semantic sophistication and percepttual heirarchy?
It doesn’t, that’s why asking or begging for an artist is as old as religion goes.
Lost in babble.
@@mellonglass go spread your pessimistic vitriol somewhere else.
You're right, its too dense to be chewed by anyone but the strongest biters, but they are missing the simplicity.
I wrote a poem, that captures some of my model, re truth and false belief:
Truth is not a bitter pill to swallow
Only poison's bitter, you can trust your tongue
The truth will set you free just feel and follow
Spit out that bile you're fed when you were young
Grow up, don't cry, the truth hurts, says the bully
The world is cold and hard for all of time
A belief you know that hurts him deep and fully
But you know it can't be true, it doesn't rhyme!
@@TheKeyToKnowledge how touching.
Sorry but where is the Science part?
van der klay will have a field day with this
God is there a lot of jargon in this discussion
+ a lot of posturing and not much more I am afraid...
This use of language... Does it help anyone make life more simple and elegant? It sounds to me like the speakers may be chasing complexity and verbose language at the expense of clear meaning and practicality.
Not really; by using precise, technical language they can compact a long string of ideas and concepts into sentences instead of pages of text. Although I am not in their fields so I do have to sometimes go refresh my memory and look up the terms 😅
Yeah, obfuscation of ideas are the greatest hurdle for brilliant philosophers. This predicament is probably the boss battle before your work makes any difference. If you can't make it past making your discoveries accessible, and you want to illicit meaningful changes in the world around you, using jargon renders explanation no better than keeping your revelations private. Of course this could have been for folks already in the field of interest, in that case this consideration isn't as important. Wonder who the participants true intended audience was.
I agree. The problem is that taking this insight and making it simple is really bloomin' hard and so the degree to which I can critique it as complicated is the degree to which I need to put my money where my mouth is and do the simplifying myself! I can't and so I don't critique it as is. If you can, please do! You're right! We need it simpler!
At 4:40 if you are only going to define IPS once, "because it's a bit of a mouthful", then at least annunciate clearly so that it is not an auditory smudge of jargon.
Yeah, a bit of a stumble there, but it wasn't the only time the full name was mentioned. Why so many unfriendly comments in the YT comment sections, and so little convivial, good spirited exchange?
am your sister from Yemen, and by Allah I only spoke out of hunger and distress. My mother, my brothers, and I lessons and tears. We are in a situation that only God knows about. God is sufficient for us, and He is the best disposer of affairs for those who brought us to this situation. By Allah Almighty, I did not write this appeal out of distress and distress. Poverty, O world, they have felt it So, I hope for you. By Allah Almighty, Lord of the Great Throne, he ate what I had in the house. By Allah, my brothers, he is my brothers by sitting in the house. Who has no food? By God, we are in a very difficult situation. We have 4 people entering the house, and my father has died, and there is no one who can depend on us and who lives in it.We live in a rented house because we cannot pay the rent we owe. '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' ''''''''''''' My brother, my first words are: I swear to God that I will not lie to you or deceive you. I am a Yemeni girl displaced from the war. My family and I live in a rented house in Al-Shahrab 20,000 Yemenis amongs, and now we owe 60,000 for 3 months. The owner of the house is one of the people who does not have mercy, by God, my brother. He comes every day, insulting us, talking about us, and moving from the house to the street because we were unable to pay him the rent. The neighbors saw us crying and came back.They came back to talk to the neighbors and we were given the weekend. So we made him swear by God. He will take us out into the street. Have mercy on him and us. Our country is due to this war and we do not find food for our day, and my brothers and I live in a difficult life. Our father died, this world who was with us in these harsh circumstances. My younger brothers went out into the street and saw...The neighbors eat and stand at their door in order to give them bread even if they break it. By God, to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, they closed the door and expelled them and came back crying. They are dying of hunger. No one has mercy on them and a holiday is returned. I have made a living, and now if us helps us with a kilo of flour, I swear to God, I am dying of hunger. My brother, I am an alien to God. Then, I ask you to help me for the sake of God. I ask you, by God, to love goodness and to help me, even if you can, by messaging me on WhatsApp.On this number 00967716649494 and ask for the name of my card and send it and do not be late and may God reward you with all the best, my brothers Sagar, see how they are and help us and save us before they throw us out in the street, you will be lost or we will die of hunger. My family and I ask you, by God, if you are able to help us, do not be late and may God reward you well..`/--~~««............>
I have a friend who is also working on a minimal metaphysics to explain reality…problem is that he is so engrossed in physicalist priors that his conception of the real will lead him in a circular way to the same old materialist metaphysics that produces all the Gordian knot problems ( ala Tim Eastman ) that we need to break away from. Without acknowledgement of the sacred, theology, and the non propositional his project is doomed at inception. You probably all know this friend of mine…he has a podcast a number of you have appears on.
I am doing the same but I have discarded all priors except continuity and coherence, can we talk?
Welcome to the feel good waffle show where everything is super deep and beautiful.
chujyil gardens
Mmm, I have no way of telling my kids, what exactly was said.
The academy doesn’t have art, it has copy.
Gestalt is a lost wallet, searching madly for friends.
So true, but they are not lost entirely, just fragmented, and still confused enough to not see the whole picture, and thus can never explain it to a child. The truth is so simple, academic words may be precise but also fragmentary.
What the actual f*** is this guy talking about?
He is talking about what is life if you don't get it you will have loss
Philosophy of Science. An interest in Methodology and Epistemology and the life sciences are necessary to understand what he is talking about. He is saying he dislikes Naturalism and wants it replaced with pretty woo woo (because it feels so nice and fits his religious and spiritual woo woo).
Luckily science pretty much rejects this philosophical mumbo jumbo that offers NOTHING material or helpful.
@@b2iano I've had great insights in ai and pattern detection when I work on it this guy has good things to say just take it for your purposes that's all buddy even he doesn't know for sure it's upto science. It's called a dialogue for a reason
You can not be complete until you can integrate both which seem to be true but cannot both be true at the same time. You can feel truthiness as a sensation, catharsis is the experience of resolution of paradox. It's laughter.
@@b2iano you are overall negative experience for me . I dc about u anymore .
Word salad. Clicking off.
Language, Logic and Love are not coming through 🤦♂️