Four Kinds of Knowing and Personality, Formal Cause, and Purpose with Sam Tideman

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ธ.ค. 2024

ความคิดเห็น • 68

  • @TriggerIreland
    @TriggerIreland ปีที่แล้ว +20

    Been searching for summative discussion on the 4P's and found this. Yay. In my notes I have; I, We That, This, for Perspectival, Participatory, Propositional, Procedural. Time for a cup of tea.

    • @nathanhassallpoetry
      @nathanhassallpoetry 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Same here. There's a chapter in my book I'm writing in my book about other forms of knowing. I wrote the second draft before diving this deep into John Vervaeke, so I know when I third draft it I'm going to place these aspects into it, and how they intersect with art. I'll make a video about that, too, once I've finished and found a publisher.

  • @zeldaguy32
    @zeldaguy32 ปีที่แล้ว +10

    John, there's a scene in the movie Good Will Hunting where the character played by Robin Williams goes to meet Will, the character played by Matt Damon, in a park. Will gets lectured by Robin Williams' character for being a brat and a naive kid. It's an iconic scene. I find that scene does such a good job of getting to the heart of the difference between propositional knowing and these other kinds of knowing. I wanted to bring it to your attention because it might be one of the best pieces of popular culture I've found that can be used to really introduce this to those who are new to it. it's the best one I've thought of. God bless your work. it's been a great find. hope to see more and more.

    • @johnvervaeke
      @johnvervaeke  ปีที่แล้ว +4

      That is excellent! I know the scene.

  • @jograves8859
    @jograves8859 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    This was a wonderful conversation. It’s awesome because about a year ago when I first heard about your four ways of knowing I saw that it lined up with Carl Jungs original 4 functions of the brain. Thinking, Feeling, Sensing and Intuition.
    1. Propositional knowing (Thinking - Logic)
    - Knowing about things
    - Episteme - a principled system of understanding; scientific knowledge.
    2. Procedural knowing (Sensation - Experience)
    - Techne - the material composition of industry as well as to the rules, procedures, and skills used to achieve a particular end.
    - Knowing how to do things
    - Skill acquisition
    3. Perspectival knowing (Intuition - Abstract Framing)
    - Noesis - purely intellectual apprehension, knowledge of the eternal forms or ideas.
    - Knowing how to perceive the world
    4. Participatory knowing (Feeling - Mind of the Heart)
    - Gnosis - a spiritual knowledge or insight into humanity's real nature as divine, leading to the deliverance of the divine spark within humanity from the constraints of earthly existence.
    - Knowing how to relate to the world
    - knowing by sharing a fundamental identity with something, almost like a knowing by isomorphism, a knowing by becoming, which also comes with a certain degree of imitation and internalization

    • @jograves8859
      @jograves8859 ปีที่แล้ว

      The main reason I feel this is relevant is because of the personality connection yall were talking about in this episode. The four functions and four ways of knowing can definitely lead to different personality types that reveal themselves as cognitive biases. Everyone leans on a natural way of knowing and can develop the other ways of knowing as they grow.

    • @colorfulbookmark
      @colorfulbookmark ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@jograves8859 I have good sense for your knowing extension for clear idea, thank you for sharing insight ^^ The things are what we feel about and relevant for well-being, I don't know much about it yet but feeling they are great ideas.

    • @colorfulbookmark
      @colorfulbookmark ปีที่แล้ว

      @@jograves8859I have learned about Jung some years ago, I have not have relation with this topic, it would open me to see further^^

  • @pantherstealth1645
    @pantherstealth1645 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    I really needed to hear that about love as a mode. That clears so much up for my understanding of my own situations.

  • @SempreGumby
    @SempreGumby 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Darn...I'm going to have to listen to this again. And this time I have to take notes.

  • @IngridHurwitz
    @IngridHurwitz 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    I need to rewrite my thesis every month as my mind gets ontologically re-booted every time. Thanks and sheesh!

  • @paxdriver
    @paxdriver 10 หลายเดือนก่อน

    This was positively enthralling. Thank you so much.

  • @pantherstealth1645
    @pantherstealth1645 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    👏👏👏🙏🥳 thank you John! Can’t wait to listen💪😎

  • @colorfulbookmark
    @colorfulbookmark ปีที่แล้ว

    I forgot to greet seasons celebration ^^ Merry Christmas for Dr.Vervaeke and guests ^^ Graceful holiday!!

  • @erlinae1
    @erlinae1 11 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Every time I think I’ve seen the best video I come upon another one that completely sets me straight to take additional notice. I am in Enneagram teacher. This is not a field of psychology that has been particularly validated by science although recently cognitive science is starting to pay attention to its content. The system is ancient. I do think the nine types and now with a deeper understanding the four P’s it will catapult my thinking to a completely new level. I wish to thank you continuously for expanding me beyond anything l hoped that I could have achieved in this lifetime. I am taking your work to the world as I learn to participate, your determination to bring wisdom to this world is needed, remarkable and filled with bottomless love. Thank you.

  • @noreenquinn3844
    @noreenquinn3844 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    A very interesting talk, gentlemen. Thank you.
    It made me think that perhaps God is being? The perfect goodness? Perhaps we are acquainted through God. God is in us, and we are in God?
    Being is what gives sparkle to things. It brings things to life. It is the good, the beautiful, and the truth which we all revel in. It is the ultimate giving and receiving. We roll in it and with it and are most beautiful when we become one with it. It is only when we separate from it that we hit a wall become awkward. The wall rises as if out of nowhere. It stops us in our tracks and speaks. Who speaks?
    There is a wall in every Everest, in every oceans, lake, creature, and day. It is evident throughout nature. It is evil, cruel, selfish, greedy, and empty. It is nothingness. Yet, without it, we wouldn't know its opposite, good. It has the potential to build virtue or to destroy it. It is perhaps necessary in a developing relationship with the good, with God?
    We can look evil in the face and turn away. We can choose not to grant it our gaze. We can distract others from it with that powerful weapon that Iris Murdoch brought to my attention, i.e., the benevolent gaze.
    We can turn likewise towards a benevolent gaze when evil approaches us. We can ensure that there is a benevolent gaze for each other to turn to.

  • @andrewx3y8c
    @andrewx3y8c ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I absolutely loved the beautiful back and forth between you two. So much mutual respect.
    Re: Tom Holland’s argument - the argument doesn’t carry weight as an apologetic for the validity and superiority of Christianity, therefore proving The Way or isn’t adequate to explain Western civilization as an axis The West swivels around?

  • @ddod7236
    @ddod7236 ปีที่แล้ว

    Like the initial Sam/John conversation about the polar bears, this one sorta blew my mind too. Love these two together.

  • @erlinae1
    @erlinae1 10 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Third time, endless in delivering wisdom

  • @frederik188
    @frederik188 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    That was a fascinating discussion. Thanks a lot for sharing these foods for thought. I appreciate the work you put into your thinking and further your effort to spread the fruits of your labor with the world. Please keep going.

  • @dianehillier2336
    @dianehillier2336 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I love the discussion about christian sects. I have contemplated the connection between personality and sect. And thought about a connection between epicureanism, stoicism etc and Christan sectarianism.

  • @chrisharding5206
    @chrisharding5206 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Great wrestling with deep and wide ideas. I got a lot from it. And yet, I cannot get out of my head the comment from Daniel Schmachtenberger at The Last Campfire that for all of his wrestling to map reality, none of it mattered anymore the day he fell in love. Our deepest desire seems to be to what to know WHO we are more than WHAT we are.

    • @johnvervaeke
      @johnvervaeke  7 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Love is the deepest of participatory knowing.

    • @chrisharding5206
      @chrisharding5206 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      I vaguely remember a line from William P Young’s book The Shack where he says something like ‘our capacity for love expands with how deeply / extensively we know’

    • @nathanhassallpoetry
      @nathanhassallpoetry 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      ​@@johnvervaekeBrilliant. And that must be why we poets (and artists and more) spend so much time writing about love. And I mean actual love, not projected / idealized "love" when the other person has hardly been revealed for you, as their face is the cinema screen for your own expectations.

  • @acuerdox
    @acuerdox ปีที่แล้ว

    1:13:40 E=MCsquared IS the "for"

  • @motiveinmotivation383
    @motiveinmotivation383 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Wow!!!!! Magnificent

  • @WisdomMeaningandJoy
    @WisdomMeaningandJoy ปีที่แล้ว +3

    It's a great explication of the four kinds of knowing, further paving the way for wisdom.

  • @ChadTheGirlDad
    @ChadTheGirlDad ปีที่แล้ว

    Wow great re introduction

  • @acuerdox
    @acuerdox ปีที่แล้ว +1

    when a person exclaim "I've found my purpose!" they don't do so right after asking their parents "what did you have me for?", what such a person means is "I've found a worldview inside witch I find meaning, which changed the shape of my whole past and future plans" in such a way that they act with purpose, which means that their action have meaning.

    • @nathanhassallpoetry
      @nathanhassallpoetry 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Great summary of that drive. It took me a long time to find out just how to operate within that worldview, which I've fully discovered now, and found a way to put that message across. Thank you.

  • @acuerdox
    @acuerdox ปีที่แล้ว

    1:31:47 what does that question mean? indicate an over-arching narrative? so a story? but we can make anything into a story

  • @whalene
    @whalene ปีที่แล้ว

    Fantastic chat! The mountain stuff is a tautology! You guys need to learn some physics and thermo! I would love to chat you about that...

  • @GrimrDirge
    @GrimrDirge ปีที่แล้ว

    48:20 how would you respond to Tomasello's assertions about the inability of chimps to for a joint "we" intentionality? He characterizes human shared intention as well beyond chimps. I don't recall him addressing dogs per se, but I would assume that chimps would be closer to use and it sounds like they are stuck behind a cognitive wall.

    • @johnvervaeke
      @johnvervaeke  ปีที่แล้ว

      I think he is correct. Our super power is our joint attention. Dogs are an exception because we have been electively breeding them for around 50000 years to be able to have joint attention with us.

  • @acuerdox
    @acuerdox ปีที่แล้ว

    1:05:17 beauty, truth, goodness ARE purpose, they're the way, purpose is not utility.

  • @denesetler
    @denesetler ปีที่แล้ว +2

    John, this was a wonderful conversation and summary! I wonder, is there any scientific or philosophical paper written on the four kinds of knowing such that academics can use that framework more rigourously? Is there anything pusblished on this?

    • @navnbruker
      @navnbruker ปีที่แล้ว

      drive.google.com/file/d/1_DnixNWOSujl5VlBpHBsvrwZv7neuMds/view

    • @nathanhassallpoetry
      @nathanhassallpoetry 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I am seconding this: I want this also in a written form so I can contend with it in that way. Perhaps enough transcripts of these podcasts might help.

  • @acuerdox
    @acuerdox ปีที่แล้ว

    1:35:13 purpose = utility or instrumentality???????????????????

  • @CliffJekel
    @CliffJekel ปีที่แล้ว

    Dr. John, fascinating discussion but what argument are you attributing to Tom Holland? All he was doing in Dominion (to my reading) was pointing out the Christiian influences on western culture. There was no “therefore” regarding “God” in fact isn’t he an agnostic?

    • @johnvervaeke
      @johnvervaeke  ปีที่แล้ว +2

      You may be correct but I see his work being used in apologetic style arguments.

  • @PiousParable
    @PiousParable ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Sam seems to have a bone to pick with organized religion; many of his insights (though highly relevant) seem slightly tainted by that lens. Great talk!!

  • @projectmalus
    @projectmalus ปีที่แล้ว +1

    If the sun's rays in radial sprays come over the ocean for no maS/Sam Tide-man-beach (to borrow the guest for 3 moments) the past foothills are higher than the beach now, objects are pie slices with a curved perimeter where self is (the beach, as the mezzanine) and the procedural seems like the ability to move from foothills to beach to the triangle or radial wedge pointing to the Sun, the conatas perhaps.
    How about clairvoyance for lightness of being as getting to the point/origin in relatio religio? A subdivision of the perspectival where one can regard the conatas without objectification, or some would say attachment. Clear voyage allowing origin as pantograph pin and self rides that leaping mechanism. One way out is to regard the human as in the mammal object, in relation there too with the non-mammal. More beach to walk and cycloid symbiosis to explore. Thanks.

  • @pantherstealth1645
    @pantherstealth1645 ปีที่แล้ว

    I use “cognizant” all the time!

    • @pantherstealth1645
      @pantherstealth1645 ปีที่แล้ว

      ‘Parameter’ is also one of my favorite terms

  • @colorfulbookmark
    @colorfulbookmark ปีที่แล้ว

    I think honoring and respect forward to Four Kinds of Knowing theory, when receptive thinking man escapes from particular kind of egocentrism which is internalized guilty practice every blame is to him (which is not really), the Four Kinds of Knowing theory can make improvement for the man within relevant realization, I think it is not only self-help endeavor, which can turn some people's mentality more stronger, and even if accepting all of it, attitude is so, then things are well. Of course, trust is always contributory part of it though ^^

    • @colorfulbookmark
      @colorfulbookmark ปีที่แล้ว

      This kind of egocentrism is good? "I don't think intellectuals make video for me, I still feel sorry because they spent time for me (?)" ^^;;

  • @Richard_Paradise
    @Richard_Paradise ปีที่แล้ว

    It's good.

  • @MarcInTbilisi
    @MarcInTbilisi 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I've been to Mt. Everest. Believe me, it has a *lot* of babies.

  • @acuerdox
    @acuerdox ปีที่แล้ว

    1:20:35 this "steady progression" thing is nonsense, why would purpose be linear? what would be something that we can understand or put into words? edit: it only needs to happen once to be real, purpose is what some call objectivity, or truth, or reality.

  • @royaebrahim2449
    @royaebrahim2449 ปีที่แล้ว +1

  • @jonyspinoza3310
    @jonyspinoza3310 ปีที่แล้ว

    🌞

  • @JillFreeman-kb4ih
    @JillFreeman-kb4ih 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

    There are two different and opposite impulses in Earth history up until 2024. In the early centuries, the entities/subtle bodies must individuate. All the wars and territory disputes in Europe/North Africa and Asia was about becoming individual from your larger race/religious group that often abused individual will and desire.
    As time marched on to the post colonial "western civilization" era, the problem was pointless violence and crime due to personal greed and anger, moral emptiness, too much "ego", consuming all resources without purpose, hedonism, hatred of a parents/family/God, decadent revolution... after all that, a return to the group as an individual which involves self sacrifice for group needs became important again. More important than shallow personal desires. However, the criminals which lie and abuse this process are dominating the conversation and this must be stopped. No one owns "Christian" or "Catholic" symbols and those that try to own these symbols do not belong on the current timeline.
    Outside of linear time one must recognize what part of history is being experienced because there are these opposite needs.
    Many here in my time just wish to be taken care of and have no skills to offer (and no desire to work, learn or contribute) and we cannot afford to parent anymore "slaves" or "children" that block learning in 2024.

  • @callummilburn8204
    @callummilburn8204 ปีที่แล้ว

    5th is knowing where my odd socks are?

  • @acuerdox
    @acuerdox ปีที่แล้ว

    when anglos say "purpose" in spanish that translates to "meaning", nobody means objective when they say purpose.

  • @stevenmathews7621
    @stevenmathews7621 ปีที่แล้ว

    love your work John
    keep fighting the good fight
    I'd suggest (I actually don't know crap, but.. this is a thought that came)
    you come across very uncomfortable when you're not talking to people
    for reading something to the camera (beyond memorising it)...
    there's a very effective cheap option - a half silvered mirror (a one-way mirror)
    angled 45° to reflect the script
    th-cam.com/video/YeRu4xYH_W0/w-d-xo.html
    think you'd benefit from this
    love your stuff
    keep doing what you're doing

  • @oliverjamito9902
    @oliverjamito9902 ปีที่แล้ว

    Say silent...if silent? Likewise acknowledge with Gratitude and Honor unto all the shared i AM. Why HEAR? Heirs and our Beautiful will say LET THEM HEAR! Liken unto "WHY HEAR ONE ANOTHER VOICES'"? A little "i" will say, who are ye ALL are talking too? What is a conversations without the AM=1. WHAT IS #? HERE YE ALL ARE IN FRONT! Heirs will say what is a Name nor names unto all the Who am I? In front of...students will say even given space and room to grow to say "Who am I"? What is a purpose all thy feet resting upon the very tip of time upon WHO'S FOOTSTOOL? Now students why the OLIVER JAMITO BORN DECEMBER 29 1976 SIGNITURE. Who is that NEW DAY? Life among the LIVING. Some will say what is Dead? Knows belongs? Among the Dead. Can the dead...why are ye all ALIVE? Why there's something rather than nothing? Who else? But shared....all made knows belongs? But without thy shared I AM. Who can exist? But from Thy shared I AM! From who am I to a little Child "i" with Thy AM. NOW WHO ARE YOU? What is a Name without Thy shared I AM? Nevertheless if the True Owner will say, What is Your name? Likewise why thy name nor all Names exist in front? Students will say remembering ye once born, to crawling, to walking, and till now thy feet resting upon the very tip of time. Mileage from thy feet is recognize! Is required. Why?

  • @JillFreeman-kb4ih
    @JillFreeman-kb4ih 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Earth is NOT a sphere with a single, radiating center. Earth has a South Pole and a North Pole which involves two separate, opposite spins. Like a magnetic field? .........That is why "flat" earth was appealing. It involves a disc with two separate faces. The word "sphere" does not translate to the shape or "form" of Earth.
    In elementary school, Earth has been described as "spheroid" or a bloated, oval shape with an equator belt-- however, "sphere" involves a single center which everybody tries to define and control so the metaphor/word is entirely inaccurate and also dangerous. A planet does not have a single center. A planet does not have a single creator. A planet does not have a single origin... etc, etc.

  • @mellonglass
    @mellonglass ปีที่แล้ว

    Self assumed goodness, uses the language of transaction.
    The artist has no owner, even if goodness claims it.
    The painting is of peasants and locals, dressed in cloth, to be assumed of great stature and importance.
    Only the satire of an artist can survive his own renditions of fake news and the spells they created.

  • @RockMe1977
    @RockMe1977 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    If the whole of humanity behaved like Jesus and just do away with all religions...there would be a lot less people dying and whole lot of broken hearts getting mended and loved instead. We all need to become Jesus, do what Jesus would do, living love is living alive...all religions aside ❤

    • @projectmalus
      @projectmalus ปีที่แล้ว

      That might get rid of religio relatio, to put it in an odd way: In the English language, there's choices in the ontology presented as being and moving. That is, nouns don't have to relate to being and verbs to moving, it could be the other way round or neither, which makes more sense as adverbs "being" since everything moves anyway so the relatedness enters being while the moving without that is trivial. Similarly for adjectives as moving, the red ball since the ball shape is approximated and the red defined, self moving to that.
      edit: so the point I think is that one has to fix the language after fixing the Jesus behavior and it ripples out to requiring perfect knowledge which moves away from religio relatio and into objectification.

    • @josephlawrence3857
      @josephlawrence3857 11 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Is religion the issue or those who participate in it? Halfheartedly or self-sevingly or singlemindedly, these were even the apostles Jesus chose

  • @dalibofurnell
    @dalibofurnell ปีที่แล้ว +1

  • @LGtransition
    @LGtransition ปีที่แล้ว