I love all of the battery experts that don’t know how to say great video before they give their opinion on your choice of product for your boat. Thanks for sharing what works best for you and you sailing vessel. Fair winds until the next video!
One of the best explanations of the lithium batteries can be found on Ryan & Sophie Sailing. Ryan does a series of technical videos, one of which addresses the lithium v. lead-acid question. It's really good. Sailing With the Wynns is another one with a very good video on lithium v. lead. They have me convinced.
Fair enough; however, the Wynns say pretty much the same thing. The fact that Ryan is in the industry affords not only the potential for bias, but also the expertise to speak authoritatively. A more useful response might be to challenge any of the content of his explanation. Okay, a couple of hours after starting this response, I now have gone through quite a few articles and videos coming from what would seem to be not only authoritative, but also neutral (a couple of mechanical engineers among them.) They come to the same conclusions. One thing Ryan didn't mention was how much lithium has declined in price, to about 20% of what it was in 2011, with declines continuing to come. Another interesting fact not mentioned in Ryan's is the lack of re usability of the materials from lithium batteries. Again, though, it would appear that there are advances on that front almost daily. And Ryan does cover some of the big disadvantages - obviously cost, but also potential volatility of a lithium battery. The other material I looked at echoed those concerns, but also, as Ryan does, discusses the mitigation of those concerns. For those who might be interested in knowing where this discussion is coming from, the video Ryan made can be found at th-cam.com/video/pP98FJD6b04/w-d-xo.html. Cheers.
On the other hand, I want to make it clear that I'm not beginning to question Kevin's choice here. Going from AGM to lithium isn't just a plug and play solution - it would require quite a bit of retrofit in order to make the lithium installation safe and usable.
BETTER and BETTER!!! Spent many weekends out on Boca Grande back in the late 50s early 60s. Even sheltered from a small tropical storm in the old metal weather station bldg that used to be there. Thanks for sparking the memories!
Hey Kevin, thanks for another great video. We sailed to Marathon from Ft. Pierce last week, then had to return home for work. Sorry we missed you. We will be back in early April. If you are still around we'd like to buy you a drink.
FYI. That's a good shot of Little Palm Island at 8:00 as you are leaving New Found Harbour. It is a high-end resort that pretty much got wiped out by Hurricane Irma. They just got rebuilt and back up and running last month over two years since the storm. Great channel. Thanks.
@@howtosailoceans1423 the billionaire's estate is across from little palm island, the one with the two large houses on it. they call it couponkey. i was hired in 2006 to rebuild it after wilma and stayed on for over 10 years as caretaker. it was destroyed again by Irma in 2017.
I am glad I found your channel, really enjoying, especially the sailing information. So many others show all the fun stuff mostly. So, how to support you??
I got Everstart Maxx batteries at walmart for $100, they're 105AH, 800CA, weigh 60lbs, and they come with a 2 year warranty. People use them for trolling motors and they last up to 5 years. I've had them for 9 months now so I'll have to personally see how long they last but by the numbers they beat anything out. If they only last up until their warranty they still cost half of what lithium does.
i am so impressed with your sailing abilities i look forward to every new posted video. I will be sailing the same waters soon so you've been giving me a taste of whats to come-- thanks! . But i do hope you get that rats nest of wiring squared away asap! Hate to see you have a fire mishap on one of your awesome passages ...
Lithium batteries are expensive up front but your comparison might be flawed without taking into consideration the usable amp hours and number of cycles. That said, I'm in the AGM camp with you... for now. I love your videos, BTW.
You're an amazing fount of knowledge about sailing... but that rats nest of wires?? Might need to make that a summer project :) Love your videos either way. Happy (belated) Valentines' Day!!!
@@howtosailoceans1423 I was just giving you a hard time. If the worst that can be said is "your wiring is a mess" you're doing ok. Any plans on travelling farther than the caribbean and back?
Nice touch, adding a bit of humor to your video, Kevin. While watching you bust your buns, trying to muscle batteries out and new ones in, the engineer in me kept imagining a pad eye mounted overhead (or small portable gantry set-up) with a block and tackle employed to lessen the physical aspects of the job. Of course that would require more time, effort, and expense in order to lessen the physical effort. Just as well you did the job as you did - sometimes simplest is best. A little more physical effort, but far less time - it's always a trade-off. Enjoyed the video. Hope you're enjoying life in the Keys right now.
Hmm, yes, block and tackle suspended from the boom overhead would have worked. I even have a gantline system stored in the cockpit locker, a thought for next time.
I have often wondered why I do not see contemporary sailors using the built in ADHOC davit (the boom) for moderate load transfers onboard or offboard. Years ago I sat an 8 person hot tub into my back deck (built in to deck level) with an 2x4 A-Frame, 2x4 "davit",block and tackle and a small 4 ton chain hoist ( I carry that chain hoist with me every where in a 2 1/2 gallon pail to this day) all by my meager lonesome. For some reason all of my friends were busy that Saturday. LOL As you may have guessed they were ALL available for the christening party.
Fab video as usual , sucks that YT demonitized you for that 8 sec music. Anyways, if you fancied drawing a schematic of your electrical system, I would love to see it.
@@howtosailoceans1423 haha well that has never stopped you before and having a schematic will allow your devoted followers to offer constructive support :) Also might be a good thing to do as a fire prevention exercise Lol - your NO BS high skill weekly cast is a highlight of my week.
I think you’ll be happy with your new battery set up and for your very low load requirements you could have gotten away with one battle born battery to replace your old AGM's. As you know, Lithium batteries can take a charge much faster than the AGM’s but I do understand your decision. I would double check the size of the wire you used to parallel the batteries depending on the load of your inverter On another note, I once used dielectric grease like you did and found I had problems with continuity on an electrical connection. The grease acted like an insulator and inhibited the flow of current. Since dielectric grease does not conduct electricity, so it shouldn't be applied directly to the mating surfaces (pins and sockets and ring terminals) of an electrical connection. There’s a reason that grease call dielectric grease is called dielectric. It is non-conductive, something you probably don't want in an electrical connection. Most times that such a grease is used, there is a mechanical rubbing/squeezing/scraping that clears the grease when making contact and that is why folks who use it often don't have problems, but, as in my case, it can happen. I think a better approach is to make all clean connections first and then apply the grease all around on the outside to prevent air from contact with the metal… Good luck with your new batteries. Terry
Ahoy Terry, yes, some other commentors pointed out that while AGM's are rated 125aH, effectively only half of that is usable since you don't want to go below 50% charge. With Lithium you can just burn 'em to zero and charge right back up, no problem. I'm sure as prices come down these newer batteries will become the standard. Did not know that about dielectric grease, thanks.
The next time you do batteries look at prismatic LiFePo4 cells with a battery management system. They've become more affordable. For our bus conversion, I built a 14kW 16s (280 ah at 48v nominal) battery bank equivalent to about 10+ Battleborn batteries for $2000.n of course who knows what great developments will come about by then
Boat batteries - always a 'conversation' starter. Like a few of the other comments, I agree total number and depth of discharge should also be factored, but usage pattern is key. I'm sized with two 225 Ah golf cart batteries @6v. Only 110Ah is usable because of the 50% rule, but occasional day cruising only discharges 10%, and rarely down to 20 or 30% on overnights. By the manufacturers charts, lead acid will still give me thousands discharge cycles, so the chemistry makes sense. Living aboard, you have much higher power demands from your bank, and AGMs allow for 80% DoD with many more deep cycles. AGM is definitely the way to go for folks like you. I'm with you on the LiFePO4's. They sure seem nice, I mean, my phone lasts a lonnnng time on a slim little battery, but it is a lot to shell out up front.
@@howtosailoceans1423 AGM batteries excel in their slow discharge over storage periods; but going deep, putting out raw power, they can't beat a quality lead acid battery yet. AGM's do off gas when pushed like regular lead acid, either fast discharge or charge, but being sealed you can't maintain them. Well maintained T105's are known for lasting many, many years, usually around 10 or more, if properly maintained. Especially if you run all year round and don't store them. I have two banks of two in my boat. Replaced 12 year old ones last year just because it was time, they were still working.
I love that you still call it Amazon.com ☺️ Loved this video, as I just replaced my entire battery bank to AGM as well! As always, you cracked me up with your serenade to Amazon 😂
Enjoying your videos. Very educational as well as entertaining. When you mention wind direction could you also state the speed? Thanks. Also, just replaced my AGM batteries with 1 BB lithium for the reasons you mentioned. Since the agms shouldn’t be discharged below 50% I only needed 1 lithium battery instead of 2 agms so my break-even is 10 years. I’ll report back in 2030 and let you know.
So you anchored South East from Ramrod Key. The South West side of the Island is our company property. If you look just south of the bridge there is a small harbor. No facilities, there are some fisherman and electricity. Always welcome, make references to Eric and Paulus (Boston).
Try "usable" AH for figures. Closer to 2X cost per for LiPo, then compute potential longevity. Ultimately still more $$ for LiPo ;) I have had great results with Interstate HD marine gp27; 160 AH, so 80AH usable.I call it "Lazarus" , as it's been killed twice and brought back. Now starting on my 8th year, so.... .
When comparing lithium batteries remember that they have a lot more useable capacity, meaning they can be discharged much more deeply than a flooded lead acid battery (which an AGM is), which you can't really discharge more than 50% (and even at that level you are killing your battery), probably more like 30%. Also, lithium generally charges faster and more efficiently with solar. Thus, a lithium with 32 Ah has almost as much usable current as a 100 Ah lead acid battery. So that 100 Ah lithium battery has huge capacity compared to those AGMs, and two such batteries would likely make you a very rich man, electricity-wise.
3,000 usd for a single 100 amp hrs lithium. No thanks i stay old school with my t105s. 6 x t105s cost me 900.00 and last 6 years and give me 675 amp hrs i can go 40 years for for the cost of 2 lithium. Lithium is for rich people. Beside i dont need 40 more years. Maybe 30 if lucky.
@@sailingsolo5290 They'll probably start coming down in price now that there is widespread interest in EVs. I did see a 200 Ah lithium battery on Amazon.ca for about $1000 (Cdn), but not sure if I'm reading the ad right. At that price might be very worthwhile considering. www.amazon.ca/gp/offer-listing/B081LFXGH2/ref=olp_twister_child?ie=UTF8&mv_color_name=1
@Michael Anthony My LeFePO batteries have been flawless for 4 years and out-perform AGM in every way. If we are having anecdote wars here...see my post above for the performance I (and others) have realized and the reasons behind it. Solar cannot drive AGM appropriately without a very big array.
@Michael Anthony fine, use low performance batteries. Life expectancy is a part of the equation for sure. But you can't dismiss the superiority of LiFePO for several reasons. You didn't read or don't understand the value proposition i outlined in my other post. Since when is sailing all about cost-effectiveness? Sailing is a silly financial proposition at best. And show me where any AGM battery stands up to their manufacturer's specs. They only get even close if you keep the charge rate over .4 capacity. Good luck with that. My Lifeline AGMs were shit. Anecdote. Everyone I know with LiFePO is happy. Anecdote. Whatever. Fight whatever fight you need to.
you made my day with your valentines part!! :) you should have published your number a head of time. I'm sure there's a lot of girls on here that'd love to be out there with you, with a smile!
AGM versus (insert your choice of battery here) will generate about as much discussion as a traditional head versus a desicating (commonly but somewhat inaccurately called a composting) head! Thanks for another interesting video. Just curiously, how many panels do you have and what are their ratings? How much power does your refrigerator draw, how large is it, and does it also have a freezer?
No freezer. The fridge draws 4amps at low speed, and 6amps in freeze mode, when the batteries are over 13.2 volts. I have four panels with a total wattage of 260.
@@howtosailoceans1423 That is encouraging! Do you run the fridge all the time? I am thinking of converting the ice box into a refrigerator on one of the boats.
That’s a pretty good price for AGM Batteries, you said they are specific for solar?,Would you use them If it was being charged by both solar and the generator associated with diesel auxiliary
I now have a little portable gas generator for when the sun don't shine, but haven't had the generator long enough to really say whether the batteries like it or not. But yes, Vmax says they are made specifically for solar or wind charging.
There are some other factors that have to be counted also. You can dig into your AGM 50% and LiFePo4 100% That means you only need half as many batteries 1 Also Your AGM batteries start reducing rat of charge as you are bulk charging and may take a hole day to get a full charge , where as you LiFePo4 batteries suck the full charge rate throughout the whole charge , great if you only have a two or 3 hour window of full sunshine.. And there are other qualities that just make them well worth the 9$ /amp/hr. I personally will use them on my boat. Cuz I run my house on them now and I love them. I wouldn't look back.
For the money of lithium I would buy 10 Nickel Iron Battery 1.2V 100ah batteries. This is what people use in solar homes and they can last well over 50 years of constant heavy use. Yes, it's older technology but it has a long and successful track record. As for the weight, it's ballast in my boat that I need in the bilge anyways. For a light or small race boat I'd go Lithium.
Sailing Emerald Steel just posted a video about a good first mate: th-cam.com/video/TcVex3jDS_I/w-d-xo.html I commented: "There seems to be a middle ground of creature comforts that increases the chances that the boat will have a "good mate". Too much like "camping" greatly reduces the chances that both people will enjoy it. Standing headroom, hot and cold running water, and a means of showering in private seem to be part of the threshold for a lot of people. Sailing for a couple weeks at a time aboard my 17'er, I've only met one couple who sailed together aboard their 15' boat, and the spouse's time limit was 3 days before she insisted on a hotel room. The other boats were solo sailed because the spouse didn't want to "camp". One guy also had a larger boat (still less than 30') and she was happy with it. I think that dilemma is why the sailing market has moved towards larger boats over the years...spouses demanding some creature comforts. I fully expect to usually be the smallest boat in most anchorages with the 26' boat I'm working on." John Stone on the engineless Cape Dory 36 Far Reach is in the middle of re-installing his engine. (I think you have met him, Kevin) Apparently this is driven in part to keep his wife happy.
I had a Trojan battery a while back, never used it that much, but it lasted about 7 years before the capacity dropped way off. Iron batteries are the only 'lifetime' batteries I've heard off, but only hardcore survivalists and preppers tend to use them.
Li-Ion batteries actually cheaper than AGM batteries in the long run, last 5 times longer and store more power because they can be discharged to 10% not 50%!
I bet in time prices will come down and the batteries will improve. I also agree with Michael, be careful of hype. I've been burned by the latest and greatest too, like with the Splash Drone 3.
@@howtosailoceans1423 Your math is correct but you truncated the calculations so the results are flawed. Only time will tell if we can rely on lifespan expectations but we don't really have to factor lifespan in. Simply accounting for depth of discharge and time to charge brings the cost to about the same as lead acid. For us, that was the deciding factor but that was because we were frequently having to charge our lead acid bank with the diesel engine. Obviously not a factor for you. Your wariness is valid and it's your comfort level that is important.
My boat is smaller, 26' x 5,200#, so that is making the LiFePO4's lighter weight more attractive. When I was looking at solar charging with overcast or sunny and three different draw scenarios: low (15 Ah/day), medium (50 Ah/day), & high (120 Ah/day) draw, I concluded that if it is sunny, a 2 battery bank is fine but if it is seriously overcast for several days or a week then even a 4 battery bank probably wouldn't be large enough unless I kept my draw very low and even then getting a big bank charged back up becomes a challenge. The good thing is, almost everywhere I want to sail seems to be considerably sunnier than here in Ohio. In any event, the usable Ahs means the LiFePO4 bank could be almost half as big, so a 2 battery LiFePO4 bank would need to be replaced by 3 or 4 AGMs for the same reserve. That would/could count towards the cost, so the life expectancy wouldn't need to be as high as advertised to still pan out.
@@dave-vf7sm Li-ions are not the chemistry of choice on a boat. LiFePo4 is. He's charging with solar so it's not so complicated and no wiring would need to change. The only difference between charging LiFePo4 and AGM or FLA is that they don't need to be floated.
@@howtosailoceans1423 Problem was definitely not your's. My guess is there was something weird going on some TH-cam server or whatever. All channels I checked had malfunctioning.
I look forward to your videos, ty for sharing. Any thoughts of going further North after leaving FL? Maybe Maine for the summer? Amazon pricing for batteries are noit nearly as good as what you can get locally. I priced out LA 155 AH 12 v Deep Cycles batteries from US Batteries in DE at $131 each and they do require weekly maintenance checks, distliied water and testing of voltage and acidity level. Trojan offers some good videos and the Marine How To website goes into depth as well. Anyone should be able to get at least 5 years from LA batteries with proper care.
@Michael Anthony Good point although I know of a few people who are engineless and use a sculling oar for getting into and out of the marina! It certainly does add some complexity to sailing without an engine though.
@Michael Anthony What sort of tides do you get in SF Bay? We can get some good ones here. I am in NYC and in the northeast we can easily see tidal currents of 4 or 5 knots. Those who use sculling oars will never fight that. Instead they wait for favorable tidal currents or slack water. It definitely affects when they arrive or leave port.
What a rats nest!! You should think about installing a buss bar remote from the actual batteries for your connections. Batteries in parallel are vastly more trouble prone than singles or lower voltage units in series. A single battery with the desired capacity is far better if available. I agree with the previous poster that discharge depth of lithiums appear to make them a better long term bet.....but up front cost of replacement is intimidating!. They also will NOT achieve their projected longevity without a fairly high tech charge controller, or at high or low temps, as I found out at significant cost. I always run identical cables from each battery to a common point where connections are made to fully balance loads. Someday someone will develop a parallel battery management system to control and monitor each battery’s charge and discharge controlling them with pulse width modulation so mismatched batteries would work an individual performance could be reviewed..... someday.....
Lithium ion is cheaper in the long run. Watch tests done by Will Prowse. You have to consider the charge cycles as well as the depth of charge and discharge.
I've got AGM too as they were cheap. Ok so LifePO4 are awesome batteries, but you need to spend a mini fortune to buy them. What about those Carbon Firefly batteries? Anyone...?
I was considering them but went with agm. I couldn't find any independent reviews outside of the company that makes them. They do sound like a great option in the future after they have been around a few years and get real life testing.
No, I am not a sailor, but I am an RVer and I know batteries. LiFePO4 batteries are without a doubt superior to lead acid batteries and yes, AGM batteries are also lead acid as are gel batteries. The main difference between the three types of lead acid batteries is the form in which the electrolyte is stored, i.e., as a liquid, as a gel, or as a semi-gel in an absorbent glass mat. Kevin is correct that LiFePO4 batteries will come down in price. So, you might think that I have LiFePO4 batteries, but that would be incorrect. I don't have them for the same reason as Kevin: I don't want to shell out the purchase price just yet. I have a pair of Trojan T-105 flooded 6V batteries in series that result in a very effective 12V system with a 200 ampere hour capacity. Would I have those same batteries in a small sailboat? No, I would make the same technology choice that Kevin made (AGM) although I would probably have chosen Trojans. Why? AGM batteries don't leak if they are on their sides, don't put off as much hydrogen gas as flooded batteries, and don't require as much maintenance. Even without any blue-water experience, it's easy for me to see that sailboats have even more maintenance than RV's and that's a lot. Adding flooded lead acid batteries in a sailboat is not worth the cost savings.
My thinking is the same, next battery change I will probably go with a single 175Ah LiFePO4 battery, which will have at least as much usable capacity as my current bank, but with far less weight. Hopefully prices will drop by then too ...
Here is the real math: AGM batteries you get 50% to 85% usage range. They take VERY long to get anywhere above 85%. Like you need to plug into the marina for a day to get that. So you have 35% x 250 Ah = 87.5 Ah of usable range. $550. Now look at the LiFePO 100 Ah. For fun just say 85% usable range so one battery at 100 Ah gives you 85 Ah of capacity (same as two of your AGMs). And LiFePO will take and use every watt you send it unlike AGM, so no wasted solar while you drive them back up to capacity AND that last 85% to 100% doesn't take a whole day like AGM. Most bad experiences with LiFePO is that they will take everything your charger will throw at them. You have no motor, but folks with wimpy 80-125A alternators freak out as their LiFePO batteries will have that alt running 100% which light duty boat crappy alternators are not meant to do, overheat and die. On the other hand, throwing solar and wind gen watts at a LiFePO is magical. And plugging into a marina? amazing. So yeah, $550 v. equivalent capacity $950, but way better charging performance and life if you have the right setup. Not sure where the negative comments on this vid come from, anecdotal BS mostly, everyone I know who went LiFePO are delighted. But they used real data to compare performance. Final note (edit) AGM hates solar as AGM lifespan depends heavily on driving the charge at a high percentage of capacity - a 250Ah bank you want to push at least 100A at it (.4c rule) or you greatly lower the lifespan, that's a BIG solar bank :-) Nets out as maybe your batteries lasted you 5 years but if you tested them you'd find your 250 Ah bank was delivering 40Ah at best. LiFePO doesn't do that to you. Promise.
Interesting, it had crossed my mind that only 50% or so of AGM or lead acid is usable--if you cycle deeper than that you risk damaging the battery. Did not know that AGM's like rapid charging, but these are designed for solar charging so ... anyway, they lasted six years, and occasionally got down to 30% charge or so, so I was happy with them. Obviously as prices come down these newer batteries will become standard.
Tough call, but I'd stick with AGM as well, unless weight is your primary concern. The main problem with Lithium based battery chemistry is FIRE. Nothing is worse on a boat than a fire that goes out of control. Nothing - not even sinking in a storm. If your boat burns it's gonna sink anyway, but not until you are either badly burned, burned to death, or asphyxiated. Even a propane or gas explosion is preferable. Being involved in a collision with a ship is a walk in the park compared to what several hundred amp-hours worth of flaming lithium is gonna do almost instantly to your boat. If anyone thinks I'm exaggerating, read this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_MV_Conception ...the most likely cause of the worst US civilian maritime disaster in 150 years was a tiny Lithium cell phone or camera battery being charged in the galley. AGM does not carry this risk, and I have found them to be extremely tough, dependable, and zero maintenance. They also have a very low self-discharge rate. The main thing is charging them properly which is easy with modern smart chargers.
I think in perhaps another 5-10 years we are going to have much better batteries. I had really already made up my mind given the price and the fact that the Vmax AGM's lasted six years, with some occasional very deep cycling (down to 30% when no sunlight). That's good enough for me. Did not consider the fire hazard, although I do recall Samsung having problems with the Li batteries in their phones catching fire.
What makes an AGM (or any battery) specific to solar charging? Seems like a marketing gimmick to me. A battery is indifferent to the source of the charge, be it traditional lead-acid, AGM, or lithium. It is the job of the charge electronics to deliver the appropriate charge levels for the battery. Lithiums have a strange property that they can take a "fast charge" until they are at 80%, or so, then you should no longer fast charge. So you see EV cars advertised as capable of fast-charge 0-80% (or maybe 85%) in, whatever, 40 minutes. They don't mention that the last 15-20% will take another hour. The rule-of-thumb for lead-acid is that the charge rate should be no more 10% of rated AH capacity. So an 100AH lead-acid battery shouldn't be charged at more than 10 amps, and then when fully charged don't want to be overcharged. AGMs (absorbent glass matte) are lead-acid with a different build that results in a greater life. Lead-acid "deep-charge" has a chemistry that improves on lead-acid's dislike of being discharged below 50%. Both lead-acid and lithium can deliver high discharge rates, so can drive starter motors. Each battery type has its own little quirks. Just a single disregard of the battery's properties can result in a much lower lifespan. One unintentionally discharge of a lead-acid battery to near zero, traditional or AGM, will half the life of the battery. But in an emergency, you have to do what you have to do.
Actually, lithiums can't go to 0% as many are claiming. They have built-in circuitry that won't let them go to zero. So when an iPhone says it is at 0% it really isn't. If it went to the actual 0%, it would no longer be able to be recharged. Early lithium batteries weren't marketed as being rechargeable and you could and did run them down to true 0%. (I am old.)
Do you have a good battery monitor? My sailboat has 4 Lifeline AGMs with a Balmar SG200 + SG2-0300 and I love this setup! www.balmar.net/sg200-battery-monitor/
AGM and Led Acid are very similar. They suck. High maintenance, don't fare well in the cold, off gas, prone to explosion, and create corrosion to their immediate environment and very very heavy. The only plus is the price... Wait a bit as newer technologies are just coming out ant will fare even better than LI ones. Good luck and happy sailing!
Agree, but Lithium has to come down in price IMO. And I could not wait another three years for that to happen, the batteries needed to be replaced, I was losing too much capacity.
I'd like to think so, but I don't think anything better than Lithium is likely, the main reason is the energy density would make it akin to a powerful explosive and the legislation and restrictions would make it all but impossible for the little guy to obtain legally.
Batteries are very similar to motor oil, ask any 5 mechanics what the best motor oil is,you will get 5 different answers.. it all goes down a rabbit hole.
You stated dilectric grease provides 'good electrical contact'.....I think you might want to rethink that. The grease will prevent corrosion, repels water but does not conduct electricity. Unlike so many that do, dilectric grease has no powdered metal which does indeed conduct electricity.
I wonder...do you cross the batteries? Like, you should sett it up so you draw from the negative from one battery and the positive on the other. That way you ‘mix the current’ and the battery’s last longer. If you only draw from one battery, that one will die early’r. Fair winds ,,,/),,,,
@Michael Anthony It's called parallel and there is nothing wrong with it. And no Anders, there is no point in crossing it, its in parallel, it comes from both no matter how you wire it.
@Michael Anthony Nope. If that's what he was asking he would be talking about series and once again that wouldn't "blow up your boat", but obviously that wouldn't be his question.
@Michael Anthony Just trust me, he is talking about parallel, load negative on one battery, load positive on the other. He thinks that has an effect on battery performance, I told him it doesn't. I'm right, no need to reread anything. As long as he is using the correct gauge to jump the batteries, he can hook the load up however he likes, it will make no difference.
I love all of the battery experts that don’t know how to say great video before they give their opinion on your choice of product for your boat. Thanks for sharing what works best for you and you sailing vessel. Fair winds until the next video!
You are absolutely correct. After all, who is making these videos?
I know nothing about batteries. So two years later what worked? What didn't ?
One of the best explanations of the lithium batteries can be found on Ryan & Sophie Sailing. Ryan does a series of technical videos, one of which addresses the lithium v. lead-acid question. It's really good. Sailing With the Wynns is another one with a very good video on lithium v. lead. They have me convinced.
Ryan sells lithium batteries for a living. not exactly a neutral viewpoint.
Fair enough; however, the Wynns say pretty much the same thing. The fact that Ryan is in the industry affords not only the potential for bias, but also the expertise to speak authoritatively. A more useful response might be to challenge any of the content of his explanation.
Okay, a couple of hours after starting this response, I now have gone through quite a few articles and videos coming from what would seem to be not only authoritative, but also neutral (a couple of mechanical engineers among them.) They come to the same conclusions. One thing Ryan didn't mention was how much lithium has declined in price, to about 20% of what it was in 2011, with declines continuing to come. Another interesting fact not mentioned in Ryan's is the lack of re usability of the materials from lithium batteries. Again, though, it would appear that there are advances on that front almost daily.
And Ryan does cover some of the big disadvantages - obviously cost, but also potential volatility of a lithium battery. The other material I looked at echoed those concerns, but also, as Ryan does, discusses the mitigation of those concerns.
For those who might be interested in knowing where this discussion is coming from, the video Ryan made can be found at th-cam.com/video/pP98FJD6b04/w-d-xo.html.
Cheers.
On the other hand, I want to make it clear that I'm not beginning to question Kevin's choice here. Going from AGM to lithium isn't just a plug and play solution - it would require quite a bit of retrofit in order to make the lithium installation safe and usable.
Not to make light of your love life but I had a good laugh over your sentimental segment. Hilarious! Nice touch with the Speedwagon. Safe travels.
Glad you liked it! Got demonitized for it though ...
@@howtosailoceans1423 for an 8 second clip?? Damn, YT's stingy!
@@howtosailoceans1423 Wow!
BETTER and BETTER!!! Spent many weekends out on Boca Grande back in the late 50s early 60s. Even sheltered from a small tropical storm in the old metal weather station bldg that used to be there. Thanks for sparking the memories!
It's kind of a magical place..
We love ya
Hey Kevin, thanks for another great video. We sailed to Marathon from Ft. Pierce last week, then had to return home for work. Sorry we missed you. We will be back in early April. If you are still around we'd like to buy you a drink.
FYI. That's a good shot of Little Palm Island at 8:00 as you are leaving New Found Harbour. It is a high-end resort that pretty much got wiped out by Hurricane Irma. They just got rebuilt and back up and running last month over two years since the storm. Great channel. Thanks.
Ah, that's what that is, I thought it was some billionaire's estate ... beautiful spot!
@@howtosailoceans1423 the billionaire's estate is across from little palm island, the one with the two large houses on it. they call it couponkey. i was hired in 2006 to rebuild it after wilma and stayed on for over 10 years as caretaker. it was destroyed again by Irma in 2017.
Been reading various opinions by various experts over the years. In my opinion whatever works for you is just fine
I am glad I found your channel, really enjoying, especially the sailing information. So many others show all the fun stuff mostly. So, how to support you??
Thanks Mike. There's a PayPal link below the vid ...
Excellent video....AGM for me also....
Thank you, Kevin. Was that a tear you wiped away listening to music or you loving Amazon
Loving Amazon lol ...
I got Everstart Maxx batteries at walmart for $100, they're 105AH, 800CA, weigh 60lbs, and they come with a 2 year warranty. People use them for trolling motors and they last up to 5 years. I've had them for 9 months now so I'll have to personally see how long they last but by the numbers they beat anything out. If they only last up until their warranty they still cost half of what lithium does.
Kayak Excursions I d have to agree.
Classic Lead Acid from Walmart are a great deal overall.
i am so impressed with your sailing abilities i look forward to every new posted video. I will be sailing the same waters soon so you've been giving me a taste of whats to come-- thanks! . But i do hope you get that rats nest of wiring squared away asap! Hate to see you have a fire mishap on one of your awesome passages ...
I feel less concerned about my wiring now! Thanks Kevin 😁
Lithium batteries are expensive up front but your comparison might be flawed without taking into consideration the usable amp hours and number of cycles. That said, I'm in the AGM camp with you... for now. I love your videos, BTW.
Stirred the pot with the battery dialog didn't you hahahaaa!! thanks for another great episode. thumbed
Good to get the battery upgrade completed and back up and running. I like the idea of the lithium batteries, just not the cost.
You're an amazing fount of knowledge about sailing... but that rats nest of wires?? Might need to make that a summer project :) Love your videos either way. Happy (belated) Valentines' Day!!!
Yeah, my wiring layout has drawn some criticism..
@@howtosailoceans1423 I was just giving you a hard time. If the worst that can be said is "your wiring is a mess" you're doing ok. Any plans on travelling farther than the caribbean and back?
Nice touch, adding a bit of humor to your video, Kevin. While watching you bust your buns, trying to muscle batteries out and new ones in, the engineer in me kept imagining a pad eye mounted overhead (or small portable gantry set-up) with a block and tackle employed to lessen the physical aspects of the job. Of course that would require more time, effort, and expense in order to lessen the physical effort. Just as well you did the job as you did - sometimes simplest is best. A little more physical effort, but far less time - it's always a trade-off. Enjoyed the video. Hope you're enjoying life in the Keys right now.
Hmm, yes, block and tackle suspended from the boom overhead would have worked. I even have a gantline system stored in the cockpit locker, a thought for next time.
I have often wondered why I do not see contemporary sailors using the built in ADHOC davit (the boom) for moderate load transfers onboard or offboard. Years ago I sat an 8 person hot tub into my back deck (built in to deck level) with an 2x4 A-Frame, 2x4 "davit",block and tackle and a small 4 ton chain hoist ( I carry that chain hoist with me every where in a 2 1/2 gallon pail to this day) all by my meager lonesome. For some reason all of my friends were busy that Saturday. LOL As you may have guessed they were ALL available for the christening party.
Fab video as usual , sucks that YT demonitized you for that 8 sec music. Anyways, if you fancied drawing a schematic of your electrical system, I would love to see it.
I think a schematic of my electrical system might be embarrassing ...
@@howtosailoceans1423 haha well that has never stopped you before and having a schematic will allow your devoted followers to offer constructive support :) Also might be a good thing to do as a fire prevention exercise Lol - your NO BS high skill weekly cast is a highlight of my week.
Seems like you got a real charge out of having new batteries .😉 !
Ba da bum..
I think you’ll be happy with your new battery set up and for your very low load requirements you could have gotten away with one battle born battery to replace your old AGM's. As you know, Lithium batteries can take a charge much faster than the AGM’s but I do understand your decision. I would double check the size of the wire you used to parallel the batteries depending on the load of your inverter
On another note, I once used dielectric grease like you did and found I had problems with continuity on an electrical connection. The grease acted like an insulator and inhibited the flow of current. Since dielectric grease does not conduct electricity, so it shouldn't be applied directly to the mating surfaces (pins and sockets and ring terminals) of an electrical connection. There’s a reason that grease call dielectric grease is called dielectric. It is non-conductive, something you probably don't want in an electrical connection. Most times that such a grease is used, there is a mechanical rubbing/squeezing/scraping that clears the grease when making contact and that is why folks who use it often don't have problems, but, as in my case, it can happen. I think a better approach is to make all clean connections first and then apply the grease all around on the outside to prevent air from contact with the metal…
Good luck with your new batteries. Terry
Ahoy Terry, yes, some other commentors pointed out that while AGM's are rated 125aH, effectively only half of that is usable since you don't want to go below 50% charge. With Lithium you can just burn 'em to zero and charge right back up, no problem. I'm sure as prices come down these newer batteries will become the standard. Did not know that about dielectric grease, thanks.
The corrosion that the grease can help prevent is pretty bad for connections too... 8^)
The next time you do batteries look at prismatic LiFePo4 cells with a battery management system. They've become more affordable. For our bus conversion, I built a 14kW 16s (280 ah at 48v nominal) battery bank equivalent to about 10+ Battleborn batteries for $2000.n of course who knows what great developments will come about by then
Boat batteries - always a 'conversation' starter. Like a few of the other comments, I agree total number and depth of discharge should also be factored, but usage pattern is key. I'm sized with two 225 Ah golf cart batteries @6v. Only 110Ah is usable because of the 50% rule, but occasional day cruising only discharges 10%, and rarely down to 20 or 30% on overnights. By the manufacturers charts, lead acid will still give me thousands discharge cycles, so the chemistry makes sense. Living aboard, you have much higher power demands from your bank, and AGMs allow for 80% DoD with many more deep cycles. AGM is definitely the way to go for folks like you. I'm with you on the LiFePO4's. They sure seem nice, I mean, my phone lasts a lonnnng time on a slim little battery, but it is a lot to shell out up front.
A conversation starter indeed. The pro-LiPo people do have some points, admittedly, but I like the AGM's.
The Trojan everyone buys are the 6V T105 at 225ah's for about $170. You buy two and wire in series to get 12V bank at 450 AH's for under $350.
Ah, so there was an angle I was missing there. Still, from my own experiences, I am not tempted by lead acid batteries ..
@@howtosailoceans1423 AGM batteries excel in their slow discharge over storage periods; but going deep, putting out raw power, they can't beat a quality lead acid battery yet. AGM's do off gas when pushed like regular lead acid, either fast discharge or charge, but being sealed you can't maintain them. Well maintained T105's are known for lasting many, many years, usually around 10 or more, if properly maintained. Especially if you run all year round and don't store them. I have two banks of two in my boat. Replaced 12 year old ones last year just because it was time, they were still working.
I love that you still call it Amazon.com ☺️
Loved this video, as I just replaced my entire battery bank to AGM as well! As always, you cracked me up with your serenade to Amazon 😂
What do you call it, Shannon? Just Amazon, I suppose.
The usable amp hour make the difference in price👍👍
The beauty of social media, there is always someone to tell you that you did it wrong.
Hey, you only have two eyes and they are only in front of you on the upper part of your body. They also occasionally blink. ;)
Enjoying your videos. Very educational as well as entertaining. When you mention wind direction could you also state the speed? Thanks. Also, just replaced my AGM batteries with 1 BB lithium for the reasons you mentioned. Since the agms shouldn’t be discharged below 50% I only needed 1 lithium battery instead of 2 agms so my break-even is 10 years. I’ll report back in 2030 and let you know.
Ha! OK, though if history is any guide, I'll be back in the market for batteries in 2026. Maybe Lithiums will be more cost effective by then ...
So you anchored South East from Ramrod Key. The South West side of the Island is our company property. If you look just south of the bridge there is a small harbor. No facilities, there are some fisherman and electricity. Always welcome, make references to Eric and Paulus (Boston).
Next time I will!
love this
what cruising guide do you use?
Dude, you are funny. I loved the Amazon micro love story.
Very funny!
What type of boat do you have and is it a cored hull ? If so what do you think about older boats with airex cored hull?
Thanks
Hi Drew, she's a Gillmer/Southern Cross 31 and the hull is airex cored. Have had no problems with the hull, no blistering, delam, etc.
Try "usable" AH for figures. Closer to 2X cost per for LiPo, then compute potential longevity. Ultimately still more $$ for LiPo ;) I have had great results with Interstate HD marine gp27; 160 AH, so 80AH usable.I call it "Lazarus" , as it's been killed twice and brought back. Now starting on my 8th year, so....
.
Interstate batteries are awesome... I got nearly 20 years out of one in my old pickup truck.
When comparing lithium batteries remember that they have a lot more useable capacity, meaning they can be discharged much more deeply than a flooded lead acid battery (which an AGM is), which you can't really discharge more than 50% (and even at that level you are killing your battery), probably more like 30%. Also, lithium generally charges faster and more efficiently with solar. Thus, a lithium with 32 Ah has almost as much usable current as a 100 Ah lead acid battery. So that 100 Ah lithium battery has huge capacity compared to those AGMs, and two such batteries would likely make you a very rich man, electricity-wise.
3,000 usd for a single 100 amp hrs lithium. No thanks i stay old school with my t105s. 6 x t105s cost me 900.00 and last 6 years and give me 675 amp hrs i can go 40 years for for the cost of 2 lithium. Lithium is for rich people. Beside i dont need 40 more years. Maybe 30 if lucky.
@@sailingsolo5290 They'll probably start coming down in price now that there is widespread interest in EVs. I did see a 200 Ah lithium battery on Amazon.ca for about $1000 (Cdn), but not sure if I'm reading the ad right. At that price might be very worthwhile considering. www.amazon.ca/gp/offer-listing/B081LFXGH2/ref=olp_twister_child?ie=UTF8&mv_color_name=1
@Michael Anthony My LeFePO batteries have been flawless for 4 years and out-perform AGM in every way. If we are having anecdote wars here...see my post above for the performance I (and others) have realized and the reasons behind it. Solar cannot drive AGM appropriately without a very big array.
@Michael Anthony fine, use low performance batteries. Life expectancy is a part of the equation for sure. But you can't dismiss the superiority of LiFePO for several reasons. You didn't read or don't understand the value proposition i outlined in my other post. Since when is sailing all about cost-effectiveness? Sailing is a silly financial proposition at best. And show me where any AGM battery stands up to their manufacturer's specs. They only get even close if you keep the charge rate over .4 capacity. Good luck with that. My Lifeline AGMs were shit. Anecdote. Everyone I know with LiFePO is happy. Anecdote. Whatever. Fight whatever fight you need to.
Yes, apparently Lithiums have 2x usable capacity compared to AGM's ... you commentors have been setting me straight on that !
you made my day with your valentines part!!
:)
you should have published your number a head of time. I'm sure there's a lot of girls on here that'd love to be out there with you, with a smile!
AGM versus (insert your choice of battery here) will generate about as much discussion as a traditional head versus a desicating (commonly but somewhat inaccurately called a composting) head! Thanks for another interesting video. Just curiously, how many panels do you have and what are their ratings? How much power does your refrigerator draw, how large is it, and does it also have a freezer?
No freezer. The fridge draws 4amps at low speed, and 6amps in freeze mode, when the batteries are over 13.2 volts. I have four panels with a total wattage of 260.
@@howtosailoceans1423 That is encouraging! Do you run the fridge all the time? I am thinking of converting the ice box into a refrigerator on one of the boats.
Thanks for another great video. I was wondering why 2 charge controllers and are they wired to the batteries in parallel?
@Michael Anthony So if I have 4 batteries I need 4 charge controllers?
Well as I've said, my electrical system grew organically, not by central planning ... they are wired in parallel.
@@howtosailoceans1423 A little redundancy probably doesn't hurt either especially if you're days away from anywhere.
More "What's on Kevin's Mind" vignettes in your vids, please..!! Love 'em..!! Aloha dude! :) 🤙
I am wondering if you tie those batteries down in case of a knockdown event?
Yes, though when I first put batteries in the boat I had that happen, the battery went tumbling out.
Just wondering how those solar charge batteries do with other forms of charging like if you were at a dock for a portion of the time
They don't seem to mind an AC smart charger which keeps them topped up.
11:55 remember that you cant discharge a lead acid battery completely, so a 100AH lead acid battery has the same usable capacity as a 50AH lithum.
That’s a pretty good price for AGM Batteries, you said they are specific for solar?,Would you use them If it was being charged by both solar and the generator associated with diesel auxiliary
I now have a little portable gas generator for when the sun don't shine, but haven't had the generator long enough to really say whether the batteries like it or not. But yes, Vmax says they are made specifically for solar or wind charging.
There are some other factors that have to be counted also. You can dig into your AGM 50% and LiFePo4 100% That means you only need half as many batteries 1 Also Your AGM batteries start reducing rat of charge as you are bulk charging and may take a hole day to get a full charge , where as you LiFePo4 batteries suck the full charge rate throughout the whole charge , great if you only have a two or 3 hour window of full sunshine.. And there are other qualities that just make them well worth the 9$ /amp/hr. I personally will use them on my boat. Cuz I run my house on them now and I love them. I wouldn't look back.
Lithium bateries catch fire like for no reason.
Not LiPO4. very different dynamics as opposed to LiPO which is never put in a boat.
Great video kevin always enjoy them. Cheers
do you get enough solar to run the refrigerator?
Yes, usually.
For the money of lithium I would buy 10 Nickel Iron Battery 1.2V 100ah batteries. This is what people use in solar homes and they can last well over 50 years of constant heavy use. Yes, it's older technology but it has a long and successful track record. As for the weight, it's ballast in my boat that I need in the bilge anyways. For a light or small race boat I'd go Lithium.
I think someone needs a hug! Lol. There must be a sweet, good looking, Not Crazy lady out there that wants to be a first mate.
Ha ha, yes, perhaps I've gotten a little cynical about romance these days. Not hard to do, just sayin' ...
Sailing Emerald Steel just posted a video about a good first mate: th-cam.com/video/TcVex3jDS_I/w-d-xo.html I commented:
"There seems to be a middle ground of creature comforts that increases the chances that the boat will have a "good mate". Too much like "camping" greatly reduces the chances that both people will enjoy it. Standing headroom, hot and cold running water, and a means of showering in private seem to be part of the threshold for a lot of people. Sailing for a couple weeks at a time aboard my 17'er, I've only met one couple who sailed together aboard their 15' boat, and the spouse's time limit was 3 days before she insisted on a hotel room. The other boats were solo sailed because the spouse didn't want to "camp". One guy also had a larger boat (still less than 30') and she was happy with it.
I think that dilemma is why the sailing market has moved towards larger boats over the years...spouses demanding some creature comforts.
I fully expect to usually be the smallest boat in most anchorages with the 26' boat I'm working on."
John Stone on the engineless Cape Dory 36 Far Reach is in the middle of re-installing his engine. (I think you have met him, Kevin) Apparently this is driven in part to keep his wife happy.
I had a Trojan battery a while back, never used it that much, but it lasted about 7 years before the capacity dropped way off.
Iron batteries are the only 'lifetime' batteries I've heard off, but only hardcore survivalists and preppers tend to use them.
Li-Ion batteries actually cheaper than AGM batteries in the long run, last 5 times longer and store more power because they can be discharged to 10% not 50%!
I bet in time prices will come down and the batteries will improve. I also agree with Michael, be careful of hype. I've been burned by the latest and greatest too, like with the Splash Drone 3.
@@howtosailoceans1423 Your math is correct but you truncated the calculations so the results are flawed. Only time will tell if we can rely on lifespan expectations but we don't really have to factor lifespan in. Simply accounting for depth of discharge and time to charge brings the cost to about the same as lead acid.
For us, that was the deciding factor but that was because we were frequently having to charge our lead acid bank with the diesel engine. Obviously not a factor for you.
Your wariness is valid and it's your comfort level that is important.
My boat is smaller, 26' x 5,200#, so that is making the LiFePO4's lighter weight more attractive.
When I was looking at solar charging with overcast or sunny and three different draw scenarios: low (15 Ah/day), medium (50 Ah/day), & high (120 Ah/day) draw, I concluded that if it is sunny, a 2 battery bank is fine but if it is seriously overcast for several days or a week then even a 4 battery bank probably wouldn't be large enough unless I kept my draw very low and even then getting a big bank charged back up becomes a challenge. The good thing is, almost everywhere I want to sail seems to be considerably sunnier than here in Ohio.
In any event, the usable Ahs means the LiFePO4 bank could be almost half as big, so a 2 battery LiFePO4 bank would need to be replaced by 3 or 4 AGMs for the same reserve. That would/could count towards the cost, so the life expectancy wouldn't need to be as high as advertised to still pan out.
Li-ion battery’s charge different to AGM so you would need new charger , charge controller and wiring
@@dave-vf7sm Li-ions are not the chemistry of choice on a boat. LiFePo4 is. He's charging with solar so it's not so complicated and no wiring would need to change. The only difference between charging LiFePo4 and AGM or FLA is that they don't need to be floated.
Finally TH-cam is working correct again and we can comment. "Time and tide wait for no man"👍
Indeed. Not sure why you could not comment. I did have a problem the with last vid not processing for some reason, it took forever.
@@howtosailoceans1423
Problem was definitely not your's. My guess is there was something weird going on some TH-cam server or whatever. All channels I checked had malfunctioning.
I look forward to your videos, ty for sharing. Any thoughts of going further North after leaving FL? Maybe Maine for the summer?
Amazon pricing for batteries are noit nearly as good as what you can get locally. I priced out LA 155 AH 12 v Deep Cycles batteries from US Batteries in DE at $131 each and they do require weekly maintenance checks, distliied water and testing of voltage and acidity level. Trojan offers some good videos and the Marine How To website goes into depth as well. Anyone should be able to get at least 5 years from LA batteries with proper care.
Summer plans are being formulated ...
@Michael Anthony Good point although I know of a few people who are engineless and use a sculling oar for getting into and out of the marina! It certainly does add some complexity to sailing without an engine though.
@Michael Anthony What sort of tides do you get in SF Bay? We can get some good ones here. I am in NYC and in the northeast we can easily see tidal currents of 4 or 5 knots. Those who use sculling oars will never fight that. Instead they wait for favorable tidal currents or slack water. It definitely affects when they arrive or leave port.
@Michael Anthony That is a pretty quick tidal current!
@Michael Anthony Kevin already has completed an engineless circumnavigation, so I guess you have been proven wrong mate!
What a rats nest!! You should think about installing a buss bar remote from the actual batteries for your connections. Batteries in parallel are vastly more trouble prone than singles or lower voltage units in series. A single battery with the desired capacity is far better if available. I agree with the previous poster that discharge depth of lithiums appear to make them a better long term bet.....but up front cost of replacement is intimidating!. They also will NOT achieve their projected longevity without a fairly high tech charge controller, or at high or low temps, as I found out at significant cost. I always run identical cables from each battery to a common point where connections are made to fully balance loads. Someday someone will develop a parallel battery management system to control and monitor each battery’s charge and discharge controlling them with pulse width modulation so mismatched batteries would work an individual performance could be reviewed..... someday.....
Next time go for Firefly Batteries, cheaper than lithium, way way better cycle count than AGM.
Cheers
Ah.. What did you do with the old batteries?
Dropped them off in the "Old Batteries" recycling bin at City Marina Marathon.
They are now mooring blocks for key west
Lithium ion is cheaper in the long run. Watch tests done by Will Prowse. You have to consider the charge cycles as well as the depth of charge and discharge.
Will doesn't even understand charge controllers, his tests are bogus.
Have just seen a video on TH-cam Sv calaluna that might be of interest to you about self stealing.
New batteries? REO Flying Turkey Trot!
REO Flying Turkey Trot? Hadn't heard that one before ...
I've got AGM too as they were cheap. Ok so LifePO4 are awesome batteries, but you need to spend a mini fortune to buy them. What about those Carbon Firefly batteries? Anyone...?
I was considering them but went with agm. I couldn't find any independent reviews outside of the company that makes them. They do sound like a great option in the future after they have been around a few years and get real life testing.
No, I am not a sailor, but I am an RVer and I know batteries. LiFePO4 batteries are without a doubt superior to lead acid batteries and yes, AGM batteries are also lead acid as are gel batteries. The main difference between the three types of lead acid batteries is the form in which the electrolyte is stored, i.e., as a liquid, as a gel, or as a semi-gel in an absorbent glass mat. Kevin is correct that LiFePO4 batteries will come down in price. So, you might think that I have LiFePO4 batteries, but that would be incorrect. I don't have them for the same reason as Kevin: I don't want to shell out the purchase price just yet. I have a pair of Trojan T-105 flooded 6V batteries in series that result in a very effective 12V system with a 200 ampere hour capacity. Would I have those same batteries in a small sailboat? No, I would make the same technology choice that Kevin made (AGM) although I would probably have chosen Trojans. Why? AGM batteries don't leak if they are on their sides, don't put off as much hydrogen gas as flooded batteries, and don't require as much maintenance. Even without any blue-water experience, it's easy for me to see that sailboats have even more maintenance than RV's and that's a lot. Adding flooded lead acid batteries in a sailboat is not worth the cost savings.
My thinking is the same, next battery change I will probably go with a single 175Ah LiFePO4 battery, which will have at least as much usable capacity as my current bank, but with far less weight. Hopefully prices will drop by then too ...
Here is the real math: AGM batteries you get 50% to 85% usage range. They take VERY long to get anywhere above 85%. Like you need to plug into the marina for a day to get that. So you have 35% x 250 Ah = 87.5 Ah of usable range. $550. Now look at the LiFePO 100 Ah. For fun just say 85% usable range so one battery at 100 Ah gives you 85 Ah of capacity (same as two of your AGMs). And LiFePO will take and use every watt you send it unlike AGM, so no wasted solar while you drive them back up to capacity AND that last 85% to 100% doesn't take a whole day like AGM.
Most bad experiences with LiFePO is that they will take everything your charger will throw at them. You have no motor, but folks with wimpy 80-125A alternators freak out as their LiFePO batteries will have that alt running 100% which light duty boat crappy alternators are not meant to do, overheat and die. On the other hand, throwing solar and wind gen watts at a LiFePO is magical. And plugging into a marina? amazing. So yeah, $550 v. equivalent capacity $950, but way better charging performance and life if you have the right setup. Not sure where the negative comments on this vid come from, anecdotal BS mostly, everyone I know who went LiFePO are delighted. But they used real data to compare performance.
Final note (edit) AGM hates solar as AGM lifespan depends heavily on driving the charge at a high percentage of capacity - a 250Ah bank you want to push at least 100A at it (.4c rule) or you greatly lower the lifespan, that's a BIG solar bank :-) Nets out as maybe your batteries lasted you 5 years but if you tested them you'd find your 250 Ah bank was delivering 40Ah at best. LiFePO doesn't do that to you. Promise.
Interesting, it had crossed my mind that only 50% or so of AGM or lead acid is usable--if you cycle deeper than that you risk damaging the battery. Did not know that AGM's like rapid charging, but these are designed for solar charging so ... anyway, they lasted six years, and occasionally got down to 30% charge or so, so I was happy with them. Obviously as prices come down these newer batteries will become standard.
Tough call, but I'd stick with AGM as well, unless weight is your primary concern. The main problem with Lithium based battery chemistry is FIRE. Nothing is worse on a boat than a fire that goes out of control. Nothing - not even sinking in a storm. If your boat burns it's gonna sink anyway, but not until you are either badly burned, burned to death, or asphyxiated. Even a propane or gas explosion is preferable. Being involved in a collision with a ship is a walk in the park compared to what several hundred amp-hours worth of flaming lithium is gonna do almost instantly to your boat.
If anyone thinks I'm exaggerating, read this:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_MV_Conception
...the most likely cause of the worst US civilian maritime disaster in 150 years was a tiny Lithium cell phone or camera battery being charged in the galley. AGM does not carry this risk, and I have found them to be extremely tough, dependable, and zero maintenance. They also have a very low self-discharge rate. The main thing is charging them properly which is easy with modern smart chargers.
I think in perhaps another 5-10 years we are going to have much better batteries. I had really already made up my mind given the price and the fact that the Vmax AGM's lasted six years, with some occasional very deep cycling (down to 30% when no sunlight). That's good enough for me. Did not consider the fire hazard, although I do recall Samsung having problems with the Li batteries in their phones catching fire.
What makes an AGM (or any battery) specific to solar charging? Seems like a marketing gimmick to me. A battery is indifferent to the source of the charge, be it traditional lead-acid, AGM, or lithium. It is the job of the charge electronics to deliver the appropriate charge levels for the battery. Lithiums have a strange property that they can take a "fast charge" until they are at 80%, or so, then you should no longer fast charge. So you see EV cars advertised as capable of fast-charge 0-80% (or maybe 85%) in, whatever, 40 minutes. They don't mention that the last 15-20% will take another hour. The rule-of-thumb for lead-acid is that the charge rate should be no more 10% of rated AH capacity. So an 100AH lead-acid battery shouldn't be charged at more than 10 amps, and then when fully charged don't want to be overcharged. AGMs (absorbent glass matte) are lead-acid with a different build that results in a greater life. Lead-acid "deep-charge" has a chemistry that improves on lead-acid's dislike of being discharged below 50%. Both lead-acid and lithium can deliver high discharge rates, so can drive starter motors. Each battery type has its own little quirks. Just a single disregard of the battery's properties can result in a much lower lifespan. One unintentionally discharge of a lead-acid battery to near zero, traditional or AGM, will half the life of the battery. But in an emergency, you have to do what you have to do.
Actually, lithiums can't go to 0% as many are claiming. They have built-in circuitry that won't let them go to zero. So when an iPhone says it is at 0% it really isn't. If it went to the actual 0%, it would no longer be able to be recharged. Early lithium batteries weren't marketed as being rechargeable and you could and did run them down to true 0%. (I am old.)
No messages here either... not even a battery 😢😢😂😂
13:57 😂
We will find out in 25 if those lithium’s were a good deal
Indeed, hopefully we will have even better batteries by then.
How to Sail Oceans ,at some point could you give us a rundown on all your nav ,radio kit, might help us buying the wrong stuff
Do you have a good battery monitor? My sailboat has 4 Lifeline AGMs with a Balmar SG200 + SG2-0300 and I love this setup! www.balmar.net/sg200-battery-monitor/
AGM and Led Acid are very similar. They suck. High maintenance, don't fare well in the cold, off gas, prone to explosion, and create corrosion to their immediate environment and very very heavy. The only plus is the price...
Wait a bit as newer technologies are just coming out ant will fare even better than LI ones.
Good luck and happy sailing!
Agree, but Lithium has to come down in price IMO. And I could not wait another three years for that to happen, the batteries needed to be replaced, I was losing too much capacity.
I'd like to think so, but I don't think anything better than Lithium is likely, the main reason is the energy density would make it akin to a powerful explosive and the legislation and restrictions would make it all but impossible for the little guy to obtain legally.
Batteries are very similar to motor oil, ask any 5 mechanics what the best motor oil is,you will get 5 different answers.. it all goes down a rabbit hole.
J&S from Emerald Steel get 9-10 years out of their Trojan batteries: th-cam.com/video/9H7a1Jz-Phc/w-d-xo.html
Too funny!
Lol, don't worry about messages! I am married for 12 years, have children and not even a battery for v day :D
You stated dilectric grease provides 'good electrical contact'.....I think you might want to rethink that. The grease will prevent corrosion, repels water but does not conduct electricity. Unlike so many that do, dilectric grease has no powdered metal which does indeed conduct electricity.
Others have made that same comment. I guess I'm not quite the certified electrician yet ...
I wonder...do you cross the batteries? Like, you should sett it up so you draw from the negative from one battery and the positive on the other. That way you ‘mix the current’ and the battery’s last longer. If you only draw from one battery, that one will die early’r.
Fair winds ,,,/),,,,
@Michael Anthony It's called parallel and there is nothing wrong with it. And no Anders, there is no point in crossing it, its in parallel, it comes from both no matter how you wire it.
@Michael Anthony Nope. If that's what he was asking he would be talking about series and once again that wouldn't "blow up your boat", but obviously that wouldn't be his question.
@Michael Anthony Just trust me, he is talking about parallel, load negative on one battery, load positive on the other. He thinks that has an effect on battery performance, I told him it doesn't. I'm right, no need to reread anything. As long as he is using the correct gauge to jump the batteries, he can hook the load up however he likes, it will make no difference.